Topic: I"m interested in orthodoxy, so try to convince me to become one.

[Salpy]

Wait, I thought this site was an EO site that allowed others to come in and post... am I wrong in that assumption?

It's an Orthodox site, but not specifically EO:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24177.msg381079.html#msg381079

[deusveritasest]

Thanks Salpy.

As such, my question still stands.

[Salpy]

That's it I want to be orthodox, this church is the new testament church which gave us the Bible.

Which church?

I would imagine he is speaking of the Eastern Orthodox Church, since that is the Church he visited with his family and which he is exploring.  I think he is in good hands and I am happy for him.  

Let's not interfere.  This isn't the place for that discussion.  

[deusveritasest]

I would imagine he is speaking of the Eastern Orthodox Church, since that is the Church he visited with his family and which he is exploring.

Ah, ok. That makes sense. He talked about that in a different thread and thus it didn't come to my mind that that was what he was referring to.

[FatherGiryus]

I would imagine he is speaking of the Eastern Orthodox Church, since that is the Church he visited with his family and which he is exploring.

Ah, ok. That makes sense. He talked about that in a different thread and thus it didn't come to my mind that that was what he was referring to.

As a Moderator in a different forum once told me long ago, "When all else fails, read the thread." 

[Christianus]

How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

[deusveritasest]

How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

[FatherGiryus]

How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

Well, in my experience, the biggest jump most people will ever make is just settling down to a single parish and making the decision to stick it out, after which Baptism and Chrismation become inevitable steps.  Most people will get hung up at that stage and never get in the door.  Sometimes the problem lies with the parishes immediately within reach or experience, but most of the time the hold-up is with the person himself.

It is kind of like Marriage: we think of the ceremony as the 'big leap,' but it actually the finalization of a decision made long ago, since one first has to deliberate whether to marry to begin with.

[ialmisry]

How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

Well, in my experience, the biggest jump most people will ever make is just settling down to a single parish and making the decision to stick it out, after which Baptism and Chrismation become inevitable steps.  Most people will get hung up at that stage and never get in the door.  Sometimes the problem lies with the parishes immediately within reach or experience, but most of the time the hold-up is with the person himself.

It is kind of like Marriage: we think of the ceremony as the 'big leap,' but it actually the finalization of a decision made long ago, since one first has to deliberate whether to marry to begin with.

One would think: the present divorce culture reveals many can't distinguish marriage from dating.

[FatherGiryus]

How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

Well, in my experience, the biggest jump most people will ever make is just settling down to a single parish and making the decision to stick it out, after which Baptism and Chrismation become inevitable steps.  Most people will get hung up at that stage and never get in the door.  Sometimes the problem lies with the parishes immediately within reach or experience, but most of the time the hold-up is with the person himself.

It is kind of like Marriage: we think of the ceremony as the 'big leap,' but it actually the finalization of a decision made long ago, since one first has to deliberate whether to marry to begin with.

One would think: the present divorce culture reveals many can't distinguish marriage from dating.

Quite true.  I just recently had to explain to a newly-married man that his wife expects dating to continue ad infinitum, that life is one big date from her perspective, whereas he sees dating as an 'accomplishment' that he has overcome in order to score the prize (i.e. marriage).

This is because we now encourage 'dating' rather than courting, and we have young people getting emotionally involved with people they have no intention of marrying, simply because they 'enjoy' the hunt.  The problem arises when they take it too far and make poor decision when blinded by lonliness, sexual desires, insecurity, etc.

I think the biggest problem with marriages these days is that couples expect marriages to fulfill their desires for happiness all the time.  They do not expect hardship and suffering, and will leave the relationship the moment things become difficult.  Society does not offer shame as an incentive to keep a couple from divorcing, and so we have loads of broken marriages and children.

Marriage is a cross to bear, and it is supposed to lead to salvation and survival, not necessarily constant earthly bliss.  I think we are doing a disservice to many people by constantly shoving the expectation of happiness down their throats when none of us truly experience such happiness in this life without God, who is hardly featured in any marital counseling.

I find overcoming these infantile expectations so hard with most folks that I dread pre-marital counseling.  After all, they are adults who made up their minds from watching TV or their own parents, and most people care little about what I have to say.  Oh, well, I wish everyone the best but my expectations are low.

Allow me to say that I am all for marital bliss and concord, but I do not think we should expect it all the time.  That's the big marriage killer, if you ask me.

Think of it this way: how many of us, while dating, would still marry the same spouse if we knew he/she would be struck with a long, debilitating disease that would require us to give up all our pleasures to nurse our spouse through to certain death?  Folks long ago saw such examples far more often, and were more prepared for such events than we are now.

[Christianus]

How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

Well, in my experience, the biggest jump most people will ever make is just settling down to a single parish and making the decision to stick it out, after which Baptism and Chrismation become inevitable steps.  Most people will get hung up at that stage and never get in the door.  Sometimes the problem lies with the parishes immediately within reach or experience, but most of the time the hold-up is with the person himself.

It is kind of like Marriage: we think of the ceremony as the 'big leap,' but it actually the finalization of a decision made long ago, since one first has to deliberate whether to marry to begin with.

One would think: the present divorce culture reveals many can't distinguish marriage from dating.

Quite true.  I just recently had to explain to a newly-married man that his wife expects dating to continue ad infinitum, that life is one big date from her perspective, whereas he sees dating as an 'accomplishment' that he has overcome in order to score the prize (i.e. marriage).

This is because we now encourage 'dating' rather than courting, and we have young people getting emotionally involved with people they have no intention of marrying, simply because they 'enjoy' the hunt.  The problem arises when they take it too far and make poor decision when blinded by lonliness, sexual desires, insecurity, etc.

I think the biggest problem with marriages these days is that couples expect marriages to fulfill their desires for happiness all the time.  They do not expect hardship and suffering, and will leave the relationship the moment things become difficult.  Society does not offer shame as an incentive to keep a couple from divorcing, and so we have loads of broken marriages and children.

Marriage is a cross to bear, and it is supposed to lead to salvation and survival, not necessarily constant earthly bliss.  I think we are doing a disservice to many people by constantly shoving the expectation of happiness down their throats when none of us truly experience such happiness in this life without God, who is hardly featured in any marital counseling.

I find overcoming these infantile expectations so hard with most folks that I dread pre-marital counseling.  After all, they are adults who made up their minds from watching TV or their own parents, and most people care little about what I have to say.  Oh, well, I wish everyone the best but my expectations are low.

Allow me to say that I am all for marital bliss and concord, but I do not think we should expect it all the time.  That's the big marriage killer, if you ask me.

Think of it this way: how many of us, while dating, would still marry the same spouse if we knew he/she would be struck with a long, debilitating disease that would require us to give up all our pleasures to nurse our spouse through to certain death?  Folks long ago saw such examples far more often, and were more prepared for such events than we are now.

Yeah,too many people living for mundane pleasure,money, sex, alcohol etc.
I agree on the marriage part, I see girls just ask guys they don't even know to go to bed with them, what stupidity if they have a child then he's a witness to their concupiscence Wis 4:6  ex iniquis enim omnes filii qui nascuntur testes sunt nequitiae adversus parentes in interrogatione sua

 , and they most likely don't even love anything about each-other.
people just want the carnal mate, not a spiritual humble loving one, as far I commonly see in my society.

[chatelaa]

When I was 16 years old, I felt the same way you do; I read as much as I could about the Orthodox Church.  I read WAY OF A PILGRIM (about the Jesus prayer).  I started saying the Jesus Prayer.  But I was raised a Roman Catholic and remained so while veering off into Tibetan Buddhism for a time, which taught me the discipline of (1)  Sitting Still and (2)  How to concentrate the racing mind. 

FINALLY....(I'm now 64 years old), last August (2009), I converted to Russian Orthodoxy and I love it.  I know that I've arrived 'home'.

You must first learn to be patient and then let God steer you.  Let Him whisper in your ear.  Eventually, if you allow God's love into your Heart, you will become Orthodox. 

Know that Conversion isn't a Mental War ('Convince me') but rather something that will speak to your Heart and Soul, gently but persistently.

[Fr. George]

^ Welcome, chatelaa.  Thank you for sharing your story!

[Alveus Lacuna]

When I was 16 years old, I felt the same way you do; I read as much as I could about the Orthodox Church.  I read WAY OF A PILGRIM (about the Jesus prayer).  I started saying the Jesus Prayer.  But I was raised a Roman Catholic and remained so while veering off into Tibetan Buddhism for a time, which taught me the discipline of (1)  Sitting Still and (2)  How to concentrate the racing mind. 

FINALLY....(I'm now 64 years old), last August (2009), I converted to Russian Orthodoxy and I love it.  I know that I've arrived 'home'.

You must first learn to be patient and then let God steer you.  Let Him whisper in your ear.  Eventually, if you allow God's love into your Heart, you will become Orthodox. 

Know that Conversion isn't a Mental War ('Convince me') but rather something that will speak to your Heart and Soul, gently but persistently.

Welcome (back) to the forum!  (He actually registered and made his first post in May of 2009.)

[Asteriktos]

Marriage is a cross to bear, and it is supposed to lead to salvation and survival, not necessarily constant earthly bliss.

I'm going with constant earthly bliss. Thankfully that's what marriage can offer when you don't get into a "Marriage is WORK! Marriage is SACRIFICE!" mode.

[Alveus Lacuna]

I'm going with constant earthly bliss. Thankfully that's what marriage can offer when you don't get into a "Marriage is WORK! Marriage is SACRIFICE!" mode.

I think people just tend to emphasize this as a reaction to popular culture's casual attitudes about marriage.  I have had many friends that honestly believed before getting married that "If it doesn't work out, I'll just get a divorce."

[Asteriktos]

I'm going with constant earthly bliss. Thankfully that's what marriage can offer when you don't get into a "Marriage is WORK! Marriage is SACRIFICE!" mode.

I think people just tend to emphasize this as a reaction to popular culture's casual attitudes about marriage.  I have had many friends that honestly believed before getting married that "If it doesn't work out, I'll just get a divorce."

I can understand that. I guess I just don't know how to react when people say that, because it didn't really mirror my experience in marriage. Sure, there is work to do, and there are crosses to carry, but there'd be work to do and crosses to carry if you were single as well (e.g. the whole no sex till marriage thing).  We were told all that work/sacrifice/crosses stuff in pre-marital counseling, but in reality I rarely encountered anything as difficult as that type of language would seem to imply.

As for divorcing, well, that's an interesting one. Both my wife and I said that we'd never get a divorce. It just wasn't an option. My mother has been married 5 times, my father 4 times, so I'm plenty familiar with it, lol. Familiar enough to know that I didn't want to go that route. It's interesting how things go, though, because I did eventually end up on that path. Sometimes you have the best of intentions when you begin a marriage, though your train gets derailed at some point on it's journey. As for casual attitudes about serious relationships in general... well maybe my opinions aren't quite in line with Orthodoxy.

[FatherGiryus]

Marriage is a cross to bear, and it is supposed to lead to salvation and survival, not necessarily constant earthly bliss.

I'm going with constant earthly bliss. Thankfully that's what marriage can offer when you don't get into a "Marriage is WORK! Marriage is SACRIFICE!" mode.

So, just for the sake of my own curiousity, could you answer one small question: if you were diagnosed with MS, would it be OK for your wife to divorce you so she would not have to suffer with you?

Would you divorce your wife if she was the one with the diagnosis?

The reason I ask is that, if we take your statement to the logical conclusion, then...

[Asteriktos]

So, just for the sake of my own curiousity, could you answer one small question: if you were diagnosed with MS, would it be OK for your wife to divorce you so she would not have to suffer with you?

If you had asked me that question seven years ago when I got married, I would have emphatically answered no, it would not be alright. And I still don't believe that people should get married with the plan that they will get a divorce if times get tough. Nonetheless, to answer your question, in the present I would have been OK with my wife divorcing me in a situation like that.

Would you divorce your wife if she was the one with the diagnosis?

I doubt it. I'd like to definitively say no. However, even though I'm relatively young, I've still had enough exprience in life to realise that often what you think you'd do doesn't always match what you'll actually do when the decision time arrives. I wouldn't know for sure how I'd answer that kind of question until I was put knee-deep in the situation.

[deusveritasest]

How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

Well, in my experience, the biggest jump most people will ever make is just settling down to a single parish and making the decision to stick it out, after which Baptism and Chrismation become inevitable steps.  Most people will get hung up at that stage and never get in the door.  Sometimes the problem lies with the parishes immediately within reach or experience, but most of the time the hold-up is with the person himself.

It is kind of like Marriage: we think of the ceremony as the 'big leap,' but it actually the finalization of a decision made long ago, since one first has to deliberate whether to marry to begin with.

That sort of dedication, I think, is still at least a step or two after what should probably be an exploratory phase now.

[FatherGiryus]

So, just for the sake of my own curiousity, could you answer one small question: if you were diagnosed with MS, would it be OK for your wife to divorce you so she would not have to suffer with you?

If you had asked me that question seven years ago when I got married, I would have emphatically answered no, it would not be alright. And I still don't believe that people should get married with the plan that they will get a divorce if times get tough. Nonetheless, to answer your question, in the present I would have been OK with my wife divorcing me in a situation like that.

Would you divorce your wife if she was the one with the diagnosis?

I doubt it. I'd like to definitively say no. However, even though I'm relatively young, I've still had enough exprience in life to realise that often what you think you'd do doesn't always match what you'll actually do when the decision time arrives. I wouldn't know for sure how I'd answer that kind of question until I was put knee-deep in the situation.

I appreciate your honesty.

First, there is a difference between being taught what is right and failing, versus never being taught right at all.

I think you instinctually understand that it would be wrong to run out on a sufferign spouse, but I have encountered too many couples who have never been taught such a thing because they have only known the romantic, fun-in-the-sun version of marriage.  These are the folks that I pity because their consciences still trouble them, but they don't have the wherewithal to act according to their consciences.  So, they runand still feel bad about it, but don't know enough to go back.

I was tempted to ask how young you are, and I think your answer says enough to that.

Second, I never said that marriage was misery, and I do believe it can bring joys.  Sometimes, those joys are the overcoming of trials.  The Cross is our joy, because it is the stepping stone to our transformation.  I do not advocate suffering for the sake of suffering, but rather the acceptance of suffering that changes us and makes us better.

As your marriage is tested with suffering, you will gain a greater love and appreciation for your spouse.  That's what I'm talking about.  If your marriage is not tested by suffering, then you will never know your own strength, the strength of your spouse or how much God really loves you and grants His grace for you to endure hardship.

People deal better with suffering when their suffering has meaning. You will punish yourself in the gym if you think that the pain leads to a better body.  If we teach couples that suffering in marriage draws us closer to God through endurance and leads to a stronger, happier marriage, then I think you would see the divorce rate go down.

In the meantime, enjoy your marriage and your youth.  You have much more ahead of you.

[Asteriktos]

Fr. Giryus

Thank you for your post. I private messaged you about my current situation, which is probably coloring my perspective.

[Christianus]

How can I learn Greek, anyone know some good sites, or some good books, so far I've learned Latin (which basically saved me from ignorance of church history) off of my Spanish, and some very good books online,reading the Vulgate Bible with an interlinear Bible and Wheelock's Latin.I have to say that my understanding of Latin is very good, my Latin syntax is almost perfect, I only need vocabulary and stuff, and I just borrow from spanish for modern terms so much that I feel that Latin can be made a living language again if people only tried (which will never really happen, also the catholic church is abandoning it.)
I"ve noticed how similar Latin and Greek are grammatically, the vocabulary is very different.
like Pater latin Πατήρ (clas gr. paté:r modern eccl. patír), are few of the clearly similar words.
I've noticed that the Greek use the dative case as the ablative case in Latin example.
ταῖς σαῖς πρεσβείαις ρπῦσαί με πάσης ἀκαθαρσίας.
By your intercession deliver me from every uncleannes.
a Service matin I got at the church glory mode pl. 4c
oh by the way what are these service matins which I got at church?

[deusveritasest]

How can I learn Greek, anyone know some good sites, or some good books, so far I've learned Latin (which basically saved me from ignorance of church history) off of my Spanish, and some very good books online,reading the Vulgate Bible with an interlinear Bible and Wheelock's Latin.I have to say that my understanding of Latin is very good, my Latin syntax is almost perfect, I only need vocabulary and stuff, and I just borrow from spanish for modern terms so much that I feel that Latin can be made a living language again if people only tried (which will never really happen, also the catholic church is abandoning it.)
I"ve noticed how similar Latin and Greek are grammatically, the vocabulary is very different.
like Pater latin Πατήρ (clas gr. paté:r modern eccl. patír), are few of the clearly similar words.
I've noticed that the Greek use the dative case as the ablative case in Latin example.
ταῖς σαῖς πρεσβείαις ρπῦσαί με πάσης ἀκαθαρσίας.
By your intercession deliver me from every uncleannes.
a Service matin I got at the church glory mode pl. 4c
oh by the way what are these service matins which I got at church?

I think Greek was highly influential in the development of Latin.

[Christianus]

How can I learn Greek, anyone know some good sites, or some good books, so far I've learned Latin (which basically saved me from ignorance of church history) off of my Spanish, and some very good books online,reading the Vulgate Bible with an interlinear Bible and Wheelock's Latin.I have to say that my understanding of Latin is very good, my Latin syntax is almost perfect, I only need vocabulary and stuff, and I just borrow from spanish for modern terms so much that I feel that Latin can be made a living language again if people only tried (which will never really happen, also the catholic church is abandoning it.)
I"ve noticed how similar Latin and Greek are grammatically, the vocabulary is very different.
like Pater latin Πατήρ (clas gr. paté:r modern eccl. patír), are few of the clearly similar words.
I've noticed that the Greek use the dative case as the ablative case in Latin example.
ταῖς σαῖς πρεσβείαις ρπῦσαί με πάσης ἀκαθαρσίας.
By your intercession deliver me from every uncleannes.
a Service matin I got at the church glory mode pl. 4c
oh by the way what are these service matins which I got at church?

I think Greek was highly influential in the development of Latin.

yeah I think so too, but Greek had 5 cases Latin had 6 (but really 4 then 5, because of the vocative cases).
Latin had mores cases including the archaic nouns with the locative cases,but anyway Greek writers influenced roman writers a lot.
though could someone tell me of the Latinisms in modern Greek, I can only think of the words πορτα καὶ στουνδιο?

[Christianus]

God, my two topics already have at least 200 posts. this forum is truely alive, (unlike that dead baptist forum I joined years ago to which I no longer go because it's dead.) wow

[Alveus Lacuna]

God, my two topics already have at least 200 posts. this forum is truely alive...

Well there's your proof of how alive Orthodoxy is!  Have you now been convinced? 

[iustinos]

Satisfied but not convinced. I'm a flip flopper. With Catholicism I have to be convinced by surrounding myself with Catholic conversion stories and apologetics. I will feel very at ease where I'm at. But as soon as I come back here or listen to Ancient Faith Radio and without any apologetics I find myself drawn to Orthodoxy again.

In the old days, before the more relaxed attitudes stemming from Vatican II took hold in the Catholic world, it was nearly always the position of the Pope which kept potential converts to Orthodoxy flipflopping.    Belief in the necessity of being in communion with the Pope and under obedience to him ran so deeply that people had a genuine sneaking fear that abandoning him deliberately might endanger their salvation.

Do some people still feel that way?

Yes.  When we converted from Catholicism six years ago, it was a major issue.  My devout Catholic friends still bring it up from time to time.

[Tikhon.of.Colorado]

no one can convince you to join Orthodoxy except God, himself!  He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.  I was raised protestant.  I then fell in love with Catholicism.  the first time I went into an Orthodox church, I had a very closed mind.  I thought the Catholic church was the only true church.  when I stepped in, the choir started singing, and I felt that God was truly here.  moreso than any other church I'd been to. 

This is a very interesting list of fourty excuses for not joining the Orthodox church:

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/40excuse.htm

[deusveritasest]

He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

[FatherGiryus]

He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

I've always thought there was always one.  Now my curiousity is aroused.

Liturgically, the Orthodox Church (comprising Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, etc.) uses the term "Orthodox" to describe itself.  We frequently use "Orthodox" in hymns and petitions.

Does the Coptic Church do the same? Armenians? Syriac?  Does the word Orthodox appear in the hymnody of these churches, or only in theological materials not used liturgically?

I am asking because I simply don't know, and have been told that the term 'Oriental Orthodox' is a theological term of recent invention because to not use it would imply heresy.

[ozgeorge]

He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

You won't find out by doing a Google search, because many have claimed the title. But there is (and can only be) One Church.

[Salpy]

He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

Like I said above in reply 92, this is not the place for that discussion.      Be nice.

[Salpy]

Does the Coptic Church do the same? Armenians? Syriac?  Does the word Orthodox appear in the hymnody of these churches, or only in theological materials not used liturgically?

I am asking because I simply don't know, and have been told that the term 'Oriental Orthodox' is a theological term of recent invention because to not use it would imply heresy.

[/font][/size]

Father,

In the Armenian Church, both ooghapar ("Orthodox") and arakelagan ("Apostolic") are used to describe ourselves.  Arakelagan tends to be used more often.  It is my understanding, though, that the other OO Churches have always called themselves "Orthodox."  The "Oriental" part, I think, is recent, and is used to distinguish us from the EO's.   

[FatherGiryus]

Does the Coptic Church do the same? Armenians? Syriac?  Does the word Orthodox appear in the hymnody of these churches, or only in theological materials not used liturgically?

I am asking because I simply don't know, and have been told that the term 'Oriental Orthodox' is a theological term of recent invention because to not use it would imply heresy.

[/font][/size]

Father,

In the Armenian Church, both ooghapar ("Orthodox") and arakelagan ("Apostolic") are used to describe ourselves.  Arakelagan tends to be used more often.  It is my understanding, though, that the other OO Churches have always called themselves "Orthodox."  The "Oriental" part, I think, is recent, and is used to distinguish us from the EO's.   

Thank you for the clarification!

Yes, the strange world of 'differentiation' leads to all sorts of interesting linguistical taxonomies.

For example, the Greco-Orthodox in the Middle East identify themselves as Roum (literally, 'Roman') and the Roman Catholic identify as Melki (as 'Imperial'), though the exact opposite would be inferred from  the English.

Anyway, I appreciate the information.  This reminds me that I need to track down (and gobble down) some basturma before the fast sets in!

[deusveritasest]

He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

I've always thought there was always one.  Now my curiousity is aroused.

Liturgically, the Orthodox Church (comprising Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, etc.) uses the term "Orthodox" to describe itself.  We frequently use "Orthodox" in hymns and petitions.

Does the Coptic Church do the same? Armenians? Syriac?  Does the word Orthodox appear in the hymnody of these churches, or only in theological materials not used liturgically?

I am asking because I simply don't know, and have been told that the term 'Oriental Orthodox' is a theological term of recent invention because to not use it would imply heresy.

Well, I wasn't even necessarily thinking of the OOC. For instance, there is a communion of EO Old Calendarist churches who believe that they are the legitimate EOC. There are numerous groups that commonly use "Orthodox" to refer to themselves, and may very well be the legitimate Orthodox Church.

My experience liturgical experience with Copts is that they frequently refer to themselves as orthodox.

And apparently the Armenians do as well.

I think it is common historically for the OO also to use "orthodox" as the primary description of themselves.

However, you are perhaps right that "Oriental Orthodox" is a modern invention.

[deusveritasest]

He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

You won't find out by doing a Google search, because many have claimed the title. But there is (and can only be) One Church.

Ontologically, yes, I'm aware. But there are many that are called the Orthodox Church. And thus it is worth asking when someone is referring to "the Orthodox Church" exactly what body they are referring to.

[deusveritasest]

He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

Like I said above in reply 92, this is not the place for that discussion.      Be nice.

Well I generally assume that by that name people usually mean the "canonical" Eastern Orthodox Church. But I just want to make sure. And I wish people would simply be clear in the first place about it.

[deusveritasest]

and the Roman Catholic identify as Melki (as 'Imperial'),

I thought that was only the case with one of the particular Byzantine rite churches?

[Christianus]

I can't decide if I want to be western or eastern catholic.

[Alonso_castillo]

I can't decide if I want to be western or eastern catholic.

Proselytizing removed.

I shouldn't have to remind you that this is an Orthodox Christian Forum, and you are attempting to proselytize to the Roman Catholic Faith in our Convert Issues forum - an area specifically for those considering Orthodoxy.  However, since it's obvious you haven't paid attention either to the Forum's Rules, or to the Convert Issues purpose, I'm issuing a warning (duration = 90 days) and admonishing you to not do this again, or else you will be placed on Post Moderation, or Muted from the Forum.

If you feel that this warning is in error, feel free to PM Fr. Chris.

- Fr. George
Global Moderator

[Asteriktos]

No habla espanol

[Alonso_castillo]

No habla espanol

Sorry it was for Christianus who does speak spanish. sorry

[Asteriktos]

Oh! No, I was in the wrong then, I apologize. 

[FatherGiryus]

and the Roman Catholic identify as Melki (as 'Imperial'),

I thought that was only the case with one of the particular Byzantine rite churches?

Forgot about this one, sorry.  Nowadays, Melki is used to describe "Byzantine Rite Catholics" who are descendents of Orthodox who broke with the Patriarchate of Antioch to seek the protection from Rome during the rather bad latter days of the Ottomans.  They are different from Lateens who practice the Western Rite and Maronites who were a completely different sect that was absorbed around the same time and are found primarily in Lebanon.

Prior to the schism, Melki was used to describe Byzantines who remained loyal to the Chalcedonian Churches (who had Imperial Roman patronage) as opposed to the Non-Chalcedonian Churches (who formed dual Patriarchates in Antioch, Jerusalem and [depending on how you look at it] Alexandria.  For some reason, when the Melkite Schism occured, the Orthodox kept the Roum and the Roman Catholics got the Melki, sort of like when a divorce occurs and the husband gets the sewing machine and the wife gets the chain saw.

It is all very tragic for all concerned.