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Author Topic: I"m interested in orthodoxy, so try to convince me to become one.  (Read 11477 times) Average Rating: 0
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Christianus
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« on: January 16, 2010, 05:57:53 AM »

Hey everyone, so far My Dad was raised Seven day adventist( I don't believe in Ellen G White), and my mother Roman catholic, and I joined a baptist church a long time ago, got baptized in it, and now I wish I hadn't, (if I converted to orthodox could I have a proper orthodox baptism?).
Anyway, I'm finding myself more orthodox everyday in belief, but not yet part of the church so I'm not really orthodox.
I guess that you know where I come from, so now I want to hear what you have to say, and why you thought orthodoxy was better than protestantism,sda, and catholicism.

I'll gladly hear what you have to say.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 05:58:43 AM by Christianus » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2010, 06:17:20 AM »

Go to an Orthodox church.  Stand there and pray. Not once but many times.  See if God is calling out to you, or maybe He isn't at this particular time.  So relax, let it go.  He always does call people finally, even years later, in my experience.
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2010, 06:47:36 AM »

Hey everyone, so far My Dad was raised Seven day adventist( I don't believe in Ellen G White), and my mother Roman catholic, and I joined a baptist church a long time ago, got baptized in it, and now I wish I hadn't, (if I converted to orthodox could I have a proper orthodox baptism?).
Anyway, I'm finding myself more orthodox everyday in belief, but not yet part of the church so I'm not really orthodox.
I guess that you know where I come from, so now I want to hear what you have to say, and why you thought orthodoxy was better than protestantism,sda, and catholicism.

I'll gladly hear what you have to say.


By the way I"m 16 right now.
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2010, 08:15:36 AM »

Hmm...
"...so try to convince me to become one." "I'm finding myself more orthodox everyday"

Well if you find yourself orthodox everyday and you ask us to convince you? I guess you already convinced yourself Wink My personal opinion is that you should read about orthodox doctrine, and try to learn in by heart if you feel peaceful inside.
I'm not orthodox yet(not baptized) but I read as much as I can from accurate resources. Try to also search others like Lutherans, Anglicans, or Catholizm...and pick whatever sounds and feels right for you. I wouldn't really want to convince anyone about a religion because we are all different people and whatever I feels right for me, may not feel that right for some one else.  Undecided

If you decided to be an orthodox without searching about the doctrine, then I'll say that what you did is not so right because in the future if you realize that orthodoxy was not right for you then you'll look for some other churches to join? That would be exhausting. Undecided

Anyways this is my opinion. I hope you'll find what you are looking for in orthodox church angel
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2010, 10:12:49 AM »

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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2010, 11:25:46 AM »

No one can convince you of Orthodoxy, really. I have seen people who I never thought would convert convert, and people that looked like shoe-ins for conversion become Hindus (I am not exaggerating).  Christ calls us all to Orthodoxy, but not everyone responds. There are many reasons for this. But from our perspective, Orthodoxy is the truth; if you are seeking the truth, you will arrive; we pray for you, invite you in, and will answer your questions. But *we* won't convince you of anything, most likely.
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2010, 11:39:47 AM »

Hey everyone, so far My Dad was raised Seven day adventist( I don't believe in Ellen G White), and my mother Roman catholic, and I joined a baptist church a long time ago, got baptized in it, and now I wish I hadn't, (if I converted to orthodox could I have a proper orthodox baptism?).
Anyway, I'm finding myself more orthodox everyday in belief, but not yet part of the church so I'm not really orthodox.
I guess that you know where I come from, so now I want to hear what you have to say, and why you thought orthodoxy was better than protestantism,sda, and catholicism.

I'll gladly hear what you have to say.



I had always thought that the Orthodox were the same as the Vatican, just in Greek and with more incense but just as wrong (I was an Evangelical Lutheran at a Latin High School).  My first year at college (U of Chicago)  I stumbled across the article on Orthodoxy in the Encyclopedia Britannica, and found myself saying with every line "that's right, that's right."  It wasn't until later that year that an agnostic friend asked why I wasn't Orthodox since I agree with them that I thought about it (Protestants for the most part have no concept of ecclesiology).

As for "better" than Protestants, I take it you mean "correct" in theology. The mess that is Protestantism, splintering and being swept into secularism (and in some ways the Evangelicals on the Right are the other side of the same secular coin)....what Protestant church can date itself further than 500 years?  that leaves 1500 years to explain where Christ was, as He said "I am with you always (lit. all the days) until the end of the age."  And how, if Protestantism claims that the Church fell and had to be reformed, when did that happen.  We find the Orthodox Church as we have her now in place by the time of Nicea I. But that I mean the fact that the Nicea I acknowledged-NOT created-the Church as we now know her.  That means that that fall would have happened between 100 (death of last Apostle) to 325.  So how is it that the Protestant "reformers", whose churches now are hunderds of years old founded churches against which the gates of hell have not prevailed, but Christ and His Apostles were not able?  How is it that Christ's Church lasted only to at most 324, and Martin Luther's from 1517 till present?

For the Vatican, the fact that the Pope of Rome called none of the Ecumenical Coucils, presided over none, his legates presiding over none (a argument can be made for Chalcedon), none of the other patriarchs needed his approval to take their see (indeed the facts surrounding St. Meleitos and St. Flavian of Antioch around the Second Ecumenical Council-held by Fathers not in communion with Rome at the time-show they did so at times over Rome's opposition), etc. in other words the papacy did not operate in the first millenium as Vatican I and II would have it.  And if papal supremacy goes down, it takes the Vatican down with it.

SDA, I'm not as familiar with. I did one time give an Orthodox chaplain quotes from the first century of the Church that showed that the Christians celebrated Sunday, not the Seventh Day.  In fact St. Ignatius talks about the Jews giving up the seventh day for Sunday "the Lord's day."
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2010, 12:19:06 PM »

Also I forgot to say, don't be an Orthodox because we convinced you so...Be an orthodox because you feel peaceful inside and because you find it right.
Convincing someone to believe something is, I think, the wildest thing ever. It's destroying the freedom of belief. You have the right to believe or not to believe because you are a human being. No body can convince you to believe something which doesn't seems right for you, well no one should.. Wink

Blessings.. angel
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2010, 01:10:13 PM »

What Fr Anastasios said is correct. We will never convince you to become Orthodox; the Holy Spirit will.
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2010, 01:22:27 PM »

Well, it looks like you want to become, but you don't yet have enough reasonable proof or something? Maybe you don't know yet much about it, hm?

Start with your local Orthodox parish and find a priest to discuss the subject thoroughly.
Keep on saying the Jesus Prayer. You may also feel find comfort in Orthodox hymnography. It's easy to fall in love with Divine poetry.

When you feel that you are getting closer to Christ, start with some Dogmatics; learn the basic doctrines, what things make the Orthodox Church so unique and true.

And remember that the Orthodox Church is not a religion, but a practical psychotherapy that aims to heal you! It has already healed millions of people! Wink
You will always believe that the Orthodox dogmas are just some fundamental beliefs of the Church, if you don't get to live them for yourself. This is the basic principle in Orthodoxy; praxis.

Feel free to open a topic as you're searching for out faith. Everyone here is eager to help you.
God bless!
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2010, 01:23:03 PM »

Quote
I guess that you know where I come from, so now I want to hear what you have to say, and why you thought orthodoxy was better than protestantism,sda, and catholicism.

Well, let me summarize, and I can give more details on particular points if they are wanted. Years ago I had left Protestantism, but wasn't sure where I would be going for a Church. Eventually I was persuaded, mostly by looking at the New Testament, that God had intended a Church to be founded. So it became an issue of finding that Church. For mostly historical and theological reasons, I narrowed it down to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy*, and eventually converted to Orthodoxy. I came to believe that Eastern Orthodoxy was the Church that God/Jesus/Apostles had founded, so for me it was the natural place to go to. In theory, it didn't matter if I didn't agree with or understand something that Orthodoxy taught, because if it was being guided by God then I just had to trust it. Now, in practice it hasn't been that simple, but that doesn't mean the theory isn't valid.


*I was only vaguely aware of Oriental Orthodoxy at the time, and there wouldn't have been an OO parish close to me anyway.
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2010, 01:38:32 PM »

What Fr Anastasios said is correct. We will never convince you to become Orthodox; the Holy Spirit will.

I'm with Frs. Anastasios and Chris on this one.

If someone has to convince you, then you are not ready.  You may never be, because Orthodoxy is difficult and if you require someone to do all the heavy lifting for you, then you are either too young or immature.  Given your age, it is very understandable.  Sixteen-year-olds are by definition immature (or worse in my own case).  You will need time to better understand yourself and what you are really looking for.

If you are looking for self-justification, then the Church is not the right place for you.

If you are looking for a paradise where you can escape your problems with having to change, then the Church is not the right place for you.

If you are looking for an unusual experience that will provide countless hours of excitement and entertainment, then the Church is not the right place for you.

If you think the Church is one of many equally appealing faith from which you can choose, then the Church is not the right place for you.

This may sound a bit dramatic, but the Church is the final option for those who truly convert.  It is the place we come to when we realize that there is nowhere else to go and there are no other options.  Like the woman with the issue of blood, when you run out of all other hope, then you are ready for the divine experience of the Church, which comes through repentence and transformation inspired by the Holy Spirit.  This is not at all easy, but it is totally impossible without the grace of God we receive through the Church.

Your life will undoubtedly become harder in the Church, because you will find yourself at odds with satan, and satan has a lot of tools to use against you.  But, more especially, you will have to do battle with yourself, and more often than not, you will lose.  However, God will continue to save you if you refuse to give up on Him.

You may also find that, after years of impossible and unforeseen circumstances miraculously survived, that you have never had so much inner peace and genuine happiness.  I have never been happier than I am now, despite illness and loads of common and uncommon problems.  My legs aches for all the blessings I have, and I am pretty sure that tomorrow will be better though not easier.

I love God and am learning to love Him more because I know that I don't love Him enough.  Nothing that I have that is good do I deserve, and the Church has taught me to be grateful for everything, even the hardships.

In summary, don't convert until you are ready to work hard for the truth... about yourself and God.

In any case, God have mercy on you!

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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2010, 03:09:57 PM »

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.(Luk 11:10)  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2010, 06:14:51 PM »

The ancient church used to have a three-year catechumenate. So why not attend Orthodox churches for two years, and if you still feel this way after two years, become a catechumen? By that point, you should know what issues you might have to address before you come in full communion with the church, and what you will and won’t need convincing of.

Parenthetically, this advice is based on the fact that most folks I’ve known who made the switch had a one-year catechumenate. It is, by the way, what I am currently doing.

That said, Fr. Anastasios said is right. Only the Holy Spirit is going to ultimately convince you.

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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2010, 06:33:20 PM »

You are very young. This decision will effect how you live the rest of your earthly life and thereafter. I say take your time and don't rush into anything, no matter how tempting it may be. Your patience will pay off in the end.
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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2010, 06:35:48 PM »

FatherGiryus, what a wise post!
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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2010, 07:14:07 PM »

I'm in agreement with everyone else on here. No one is going to be able to convince you with arguments. You're best bet is to just start going to the liturgy every sunday. A church that does everything in english would be your best bet. Start a regular cycle of prayer, for example in the morning when you wake up and at night before going to bed. If you have questions regarding doctrine or practice you can always ask a priest, find information somewhere, or find or start a thread here. There quite a few people on here who either converted from some form of Protestantism or are in the process of converting that might be able to offer explanations that helped them or might be able to help you. It has been my experience that the majority of arguments that Protestants have against Orthodoxy are based from a misunderstanding of the actual doctrine or practice to begin with.
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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2010, 09:59:26 PM »

What if I find peace in Orthodoxy in my heart but have Catholicism in my brain.

Is their any scripture passages that would help choose between the heart and mind?
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« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2010, 10:08:00 PM »


Hey everyone, so far My Dad was raised Seven day adventist( I don't believe in Ellen G White), and my mother Roman catholic, and I joined a baptist church a long time ago, got baptized in it, and now I wish I hadn't, (if I converted to orthodox could I have a proper orthodox baptism?).
Anyway, I'm finding myself more orthodox everyday in belief, but not yet part of the church so I'm not really orthodox.
I guess that you know where I come from, so now I want to hear what you have to say, and why you thought orthodoxy was better than protestantism,sda, and catholicism.

I'll gladly hear what you have to say.

SDA is Protestant.

Orthodoxy is Catholicism.
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« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2010, 10:10:27 PM »


What if I find peace in Orthodoxy in my heart but have Catholicism in my brain.

Is their any scripture passages that would help choose between the heart and mind?

First it would be good if you would elaborate on what you mean by this.
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2010, 10:29:47 PM »


What if I find peace in Orthodoxy in my heart but have Catholicism in my brain.

Is their any scripture passages that would help choose between the heart and mind?

First it would be good if you would elaborate on what you mean by this.

Yes, sorry. It might be easiest if I give some examples.

If I listen to someone like Steve Ray or Tim Staples make the case for Catholicism, my mind is satisfied. But if I listen to the Coffee Cup podcast or read Metropolitan Ware, my heart is satisfied.

Does that make sense?

If I read
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2010, 10:36:05 PM »

Sparrow, join the ACOE (Assyrian Church of the East). The Church which speaks Jesus's language, Aramaic and the Orthodox New Testament (the Peshitta, see my avatar ).

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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2010, 10:37:39 PM »


What if I find peace in Orthodoxy in my heart but have Catholicism in my brain.

Is their any scripture passages that would help choose between the heart and mind?

First it would be good if you would elaborate on what you mean by this.

Yes, sorry. It might be easiest if I give some examples.

If I listen to someone like Steve Ray or Tim Staples make the case for Catholicism, my mind is satisfied. But if I listen to the Coffee Cup podcast or read Metropolitan Ware, my heart is satisfied.

Does that make sense?

If I read

Does the latter inclination have anything to do with it sounding "reasonable" or "right"?
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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2010, 10:38:17 PM »


Sparrow, join the ACOE (Assyrian Church of the East). The Church which speaks Jesus's language, Aramaic and the Orthodox New Testament (the Peshitta, see my avatar ).

Can't you do any better than that?
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2010, 10:40:33 PM »

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Can't you do any better than that?

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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2010, 10:48:38 PM »

Does the latter inclination have anything to do with it sounding "reasonable" or "right"?

Yes. It feels right.
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2010, 10:50:53 PM »

Whatever you do sparrow, just avoid protestants and also cults which cannot prove their succession. We live in the times of the great apostasy. I know you will love the ideas of the ACOE and its history.
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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2010, 10:56:26 PM »

Whatever you do sparrow, just avoid protestants and also cults which cannot prove their succession. We live in the times of the great apostasy. I know you will love the ideas of the ACOE and its history.

Thank you, Raffa. I admire Protestant zeal, but I've never felt or thought that they were where I should be.
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2010, 11:19:05 PM »

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Can't you do any better than that?

The church which is older than the OO despotate instituted by heresiarchs. Grin

What do you mean by "despotate"?
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2010, 11:20:05 PM »

What if I find peace in Orthodoxy in my heart but have Catholicism in my brain.

Is their any scripture passages that would help choose between the heart and mind?

The best I can think of is Mark 12:30

Quote
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Scripture says we're supposed to use both to draw near to God. I know this probably doesn't help much. What is it exactly that draws you either way? Maybe the most important question, where do you find Christ and draw near to him?
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« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2010, 11:21:08 PM »

Does the latter inclination have anything to do with it sounding "reasonable" or "right"?

Yes. It feels right.

But on a rational/intellectual level you are convinced of Romanism?
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« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2010, 11:32:04 PM »

Sparrow, join the ACOE (Assyrian Church of the East). The Church which speaks Jesus's language, Aramaic and the Orthodox New Testament (the Peshitta, see my avatar ).
Rafa999, you do realize that attempts to draw persons into your jurisdiction are forbidden on this forum?  If not, I recommend that you read the following policy statement to this effect:

Proselytism and Forum Plugging hereby banned (created "NC" Nov 24, 2003) - UPDATED BELOW! - See Reply #1
Friends,

From now on, banners in signatures to other forums are not allowed although you may link to another forum or website in your signature, without comment.

From now on, you may not advertise your other web forum on our forum.  Links to threads on other forums are allowed, however, if they are pertinent to discussions here.

Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is no longer allowed.  I don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message.

You may not private message others to solicit them to join your forum, however.  We have the ability to read other people's private messages (this is disclosed in the member agreement you sign when joining the forum) and we don't do that usually, but we can, and we will, if we think you are trying to lure people away from our site.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.  From a human standpoint I would be lying if I said that some people in particular did not precipitate this action BUT at the same time there have been others over the past 1.5 years who have done this as well, so it is not just based on a knee-jerk reaction.

Stay tuned for an even more indepth statement on proselytism to be issued soon by all of us Admins.

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« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2010, 11:37:12 PM »

Does the latter inclination have anything to do with it sounding "reasonable" or "right"?

Yes. It feels right.

But on a rational/intellectual level you are convinced of Romanism?

Satisfied but not convinced. I'm a flip flopper. With Catholicism I have to be convinced by surrounding myself with Catholic conversion stories and apologetics. I will feel very at ease where I'm at. But as soon as I come back here or listen to Ancient Faith Radio and without any apologetics I find myself drawn to Orthodoxy again.
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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2010, 12:09:03 AM »

The best I can think of is Mark 12:30

Quote
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Scripture says we're supposed to use both to draw near to God. I know this probably doesn't help much. What is it exactly that draws you either way? Maybe the most important question, where do you find Christ and draw near to him?

Thank you. It does help.
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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2010, 01:59:49 AM »

Thank you. It does help.

Can I pray for you quickly?

Most Holy Mary, the Mother of God, please guide your servant militantsparrow into the arms of your Son by your powerful prayers.

Lord Jesus Christ, guide the footsteps of your servant, and lead him into your eternal kingdom.

Amen.
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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2010, 02:31:18 AM »

Satisfied but not convinced. I'm a flip flopper. With Catholicism I have to be convinced by surrounding myself with Catholic conversion stories and apologetics. I will feel very at ease where I'm at. But as soon as I come back here or listen to Ancient Faith Radio and without any apologetics I find myself drawn to Orthodoxy again.

In the old days, before the more relaxed attitudes stemming from Vatican II took hold in the Catholic world, it was nearly always the position of the Pope which kept potential converts to Orthodoxy flipflopping.    Belief in the necessity of being in communion with the Pope and under obedience to him ran so deeply that people had a genuine sneaking fear that abandoning him deliberately might endanger their salvation.

Do some people still feel that way?

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« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2010, 04:22:56 AM »

Thanks everyone, so tomorrow I"m going to a Greek orthodox Church.

I want to ask you guys a question.
Doesn't Vatican 2 say that non-Christians get to go to heaven, if not, does the roman catholic church believe this?
and do Orthodox people believe such things as Muslims going to heaven?

Personally I believe this verse,
Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2010, 04:27:16 AM »

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

We all believe it as well.  If a pious Muslim is saved on that dreadful day, it is only through the grace of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2010, 04:46:53 AM »

AS to the salvation of those who have not consciously rejected Him, we have the words of St. Theophan the Recluse to guide us into a correct Orthodox understanding:


"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them?
They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being.
He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such
concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however:
should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray
Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever
."


And there are the words of the holy Metropolitan Philaret who was the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad when I was a young man and a very conservative theologian.  He is here speaking of heretical Christians but I would think he would say the same about the Jews:


"It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman
Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox
confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who
knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are
living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do
the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not
been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The
Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who
enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is
leading them also towards salvation In His own way."


N.B:  "The Lord...undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation
In His own way."




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« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2010, 05:47:09 AM »

Thanks everyone, so tomorrow I"m going to a Greek orthodox Church.

I want to ask you guys a question.
Doesn't Vatican 2 say that non-Christians get to go to heaven, if not, does the roman catholic church believe this?
and do Orthodox people believe such things as Muslims going to heaven?

Personally I believe this verse,
Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



As a former Muslim let me reply to that Smiley Muslims believe in Jesus, Mohammad and other prophets.. That's probably why some orthodox people said this.

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!(Baqara 87)

Well they say that, but do they really obey this? Nope...
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« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2010, 10:26:56 AM »

Can I pray for you quickly?

Most Holy Mary, the Mother of God, please guide your servant militantsparrow into the arms of your Son by your powerful prayers.

Lord Jesus Christ, guide the footsteps of your servant, and lead him into your eternal kingdom.

Amen.

Amen. Thank you.
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« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2010, 10:49:02 AM »

Thanks everyone, so tomorrow I"m going to a Greek orthodox Church.

Please let us know what you think.
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« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2010, 11:22:26 AM »

Thanks everyone, so tomorrow I"m going to a Greek orthodox Church.

I want to ask you guys a question.
Doesn't Vatican 2 say that non-Christians get to go to heaven, if not, does the roman catholic church believe this?
and do Orthodox people believe such things as Muslims going to heaven?

Personally I believe this verse,
Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



As a former Muslim let me reply to that Smiley Muslims believe in Jesus, Mohammad and other prophets.. That's probably why some orthodox people said this.

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!(Baqara 87)

Well they say that, but do they really obey this? Nope...
Yes, the hitch is that the Muslims do not believe what Moses or Jesus said, but what MUHAMMAD said Moses and Jesus said.
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« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2010, 11:46:36 AM »

Yes, the hitch is that the Muslims do not believe what Moses or Jesus said, but what MUHAMMAD said Moses and Jesus said.

You totally got the typical idea of a Muslim... Wink
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« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2010, 05:16:51 PM »

Well I went to a Greek orthodox Church today, my whole family was amazed.
My Dad basically ended up believing that all churches should worship like the orthodox,me I got to go to the orthodox church for the first time, and my uncle who's always ecclesiastically implacable( I still don't know what church he believes in, even though he says he's christian) was amazed.

I just can't call myself baptist anymore, I don't believe it anymore, nor can I call myself Roman Catholic because I don't believe in the Pope, and I was so disappointed, when they stopped using Latin in favor of local language, I spent years studying Latin duos annos latinae studendae egi, I felt like the catholic church turned its back on us Latin speaking Christians,just abandoned us.

The worship is just as I imagined it, no rock bands, and other mundane worshiping fads.
There was a nice guy who showed and informed us about the Icons, who asked my uncle if he was orthodox, my uncle answered, I'm non-denominational, the guy who's the uscher I think, said, well we're pre-denominational.

Some popadya ( I forgot the greek word for the priest's wife so here's the russian one) told us that half the church was gone to some Greek dance or something.
Yeah, I was amazed too, I wish I had more time to ask questions, but my Dad and uncle wanted to go.
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« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2010, 05:18:24 PM »

Glory to God!
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« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2010, 06:23:10 PM »

Glory to God!
Well I went to a Greek orthodox Church today, my whole family was amazed.
My Dad basically ended up believing that all churches should worship like the orthodox,me I got to go to the orthodox church for the first time, and my uncle who's always ecclesiastically implacable( I still don't know what church he believes in, even though he says he's christian) was amazed.

I just can't call myself baptist anymore, I don't believe it anymore, nor can I call myself Roman Catholic because I don't believe in the Pope, and I was so disappointed, when they stopped using Latin in favor of local language, I spent years studying Latin duos annos latinae studendae egi, I felt like the catholic church turned its back on us Latin speaking Christians,just abandoned us.

The worship is just as I imagined it, no rock bands, and other mundane worshiping fads.
There was a nice guy who showed and informed us about the Icons, who asked my uncle if he was orthodox, my uncle answered, I'm non-denominational, the guy who's the uscher I think, said, well we're pre-denominational.

Some popadya ( I forgot the greek word for the priest's wife so here's the russian one
Pre-zvee-teh-rah
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« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2010, 06:35:41 PM »

Well I went to a Greek orthodox Church today, my whole family was amazed.

I'm glad that they came with you and were impressed.  Nobody I know gives a flip.
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« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2010, 06:56:33 PM »

Sparrow, join the ACOE (Assyrian Church of the East). The Church which speaks Jesus's language, Aramaic and the Orthodox New Testament (the Peshitta, see my avatar ).
Rafa999, you do realize that attempts to draw persons into your jurisdiction are forbidden on this forum?  If not, I recommend that you read the following policy statement to this effect:

Proselytism and Forum Plugging hereby banned (created "NC" Nov 24, 2003) - UPDATED BELOW! - See Reply #1
Friends,

From now on, banners in signatures to other forums are not allowed although you may link to another forum or website in your signature, without comment.

From now on, you may not advertise your other web forum on our forum.  Links to threads on other forums are allowed, however, if they are pertinent to discussions here.

Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is no longer allowed.  I don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message.

You may not private message others to solicit them to join your forum, however.  We have the ability to read other people's private messages (this is disclosed in the member agreement you sign when joining the forum) and we don't do that usually, but we can, and we will, if we think you are trying to lure people away from our site.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.  From a human standpoint I would be lying if I said that some people in particular did not precipitate this action BUT at the same time there have been others over the past 1.5 years who have done this as well, so it is not just based on a knee-jerk reaction.

Stay tuned for an even more indepth statement on proselytism to be issued soon by all of us Admins.

anastasios
ADMIN

This seems slightly different to me as it is not a matter of intra-communal jurisdictional quibbling but rather inter-communal. Has that been addressed before, inter-communal proselytizing?
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« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2010, 06:59:31 PM »

Does the latter inclination have anything to do with it sounding "reasonable" or "right"?

Yes. It feels right.

But on a rational/intellectual level you are convinced of Romanism?

Satisfied but not convinced. I'm a flip flopper. With Catholicism I have to be convinced by surrounding myself with Catholic conversion stories and apologetics. I will feel very at ease where I'm at. But as soon as I come back here or listen to Ancient Faith Radio and without any apologetics I find myself drawn to Orthodoxy again.

But which way do you feel right now more inclined on a rational/intellectual level?
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« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2010, 07:01:34 PM »

Thanks everyone, so tomorrow I"m going to a Greek orthodox Church.

I want to ask you guys a question.
Doesn't Vatican 2 say that non-Christians get to go to heaven, if not, does the roman catholic church believe this?
and do Orthodox people believe such things as Muslims going to heaven?

Personally I believe this verse,
Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Both modern Romanists and most EO I have met believe that it is possible for non-Christians to come to the Father through Jesus.
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« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2010, 07:13:22 PM »

Quote
Can't you do any better than that?

The church which is older than the OO despotate instituted by heresiarchs. Grin

What do you mean by "despotate"?

I get the feeing he is referring to St. Cyril.
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« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2010, 07:24:40 PM »

But which way do you feel right now more inclined on a rational/intellectual level?

At this moment? Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2010, 07:44:32 PM »

At this moment? Orthodoxy.

Refresh my memory.  Have you attended a liturgy?
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« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2010, 07:56:59 PM »

Quote
Can't you do any better than that?

The church which is older than the OO despotate instituted by heresiarchs. Grin

What do you mean by "despotate"?

I get the feeing he is referring to St. Cyril.

*le sigh*
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« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2010, 07:57:31 PM »

But which way do you feel right now more inclined on a rational/intellectual level?

At this moment? Orthodoxy.

For any particular reason?
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« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2010, 07:58:26 PM »

MS, which Orthodox books have you read?
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« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2010, 08:49:33 PM »

MS, which Orthodox books have you read?

The Historical Road of Eastern Orthodoxy by Fr. Alexander Schmemann
The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
Becoming Orthodox by Archpriest Peter E. Gillquist
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« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2010, 08:50:16 PM »

At this moment? Orthodoxy.

Refresh my memory.  Have you attended a liturgy?

No. Not yet. I haven't been able to muster up the courage.
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« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2010, 08:53:05 PM »

But which way do you feel right now more inclined on a rational/intellectual level?

At this moment? Orthodoxy.

For any particular reason?

No. That's just it. I can give you multiple intellectual reasons in defense of the Catholic Church but for Orthodoxy I have none. My only intellectual/rational argument for Orthodoxy at the moment is that somehow I believe that if the Holy Spirit is guiding me, He will be doing it through my heart and soul and not my intellect. We must be like children. And that's how I feel about Orthodoxy. I feel like a child who loves his mom and has no inkling of how to intellectualize a defense for that love.
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« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2010, 09:14:39 PM »

What do you have to be scared of (By attending a liturgy, I mean)? We don't bite.  Tongue Do you have a parish close by?
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« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2010, 09:20:02 PM »

But which way do you feel right now more inclined on a rational/intellectual level?

At this moment? Orthodoxy.

For any particular reason?

No. That's just it. I can give you multiple intellectual reasons in defense of the Catholic Church but for Orthodoxy I have none. My only intellectual/rational argument for Orthodoxy at the moment is that somehow I believe that if the Holy Spirit is guiding me, He will be doing it through my heart and soul and not my intellect. We must be like children. And that's how I feel about Orthodoxy. I feel like a child who loves his mom and has no inkling of how to intellectualize a defense for that love.

Orthodoxy, above anything, is an experiential faith. It must be lived. However, I don't have a problem rationally justifying why I think it is the most authentic expression of Christianity.
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« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2010, 09:23:15 PM »

But which way do you feel right now more inclined on a rational/intellectual level?

At this moment? Orthodoxy.

For any particular reason?

No. That's just it. I can give you multiple intellectual reasons in defense of the Catholic Church but for Orthodoxy I have none. My only intellectual/rational argument for Orthodoxy at the moment is that somehow I believe that if the Holy Spirit is guiding me, He will be doing it through my heart and soul and not my intellect. We must be like children. And that's how I feel about Orthodoxy. I feel like a child who loves his mom and has no inkling of how to intellectualize a defense for that love.

Doesn't that mean that Orthodoxy is not what you're more rationally/intellectual inclined to?  Huh
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« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2010, 09:23:51 PM »

Do you have a parish close by?

We covered that in another thread.  He's aware of many options around him.
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« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2010, 10:05:13 PM »

Do you have a parish close by?

We covered that in another thread.  He's aware of many options around him.

Correct.
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« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2010, 10:08:33 PM »

Quote
Doesn't that mean that Orthodoxy is not what you're more rationally/intellectual inclined to?

I think it's not as simple as that. It's not simple at all. I wish it were.
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« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2010, 10:37:19 PM »

No. That's just it. I can give you multiple intellectual reasons in defense of the Catholic Church but for Orthodoxy I have none. My only intellectual/rational argument for Orthodoxy at the moment is that somehow I believe that if the Holy Spirit is guiding me, He will be doing it through my heart and soul and not my intellect. We must be like children. And that's how I feel about Orthodoxy. I feel like a child who loves his mom and has no inkling of how to intellectualize a defense for that love.

Why is it necessary to have intellectual/rational arguments to be Orthodox??
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« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2010, 10:48:21 PM »

Why is it necessary to have intellectual/rational arguments to be Orthodox??

I would say that they are needed because, when you make choices without taking into consideration intellectual/rational arguments, you get into scenarios such as...

"Oh sure, I can't give you a reason to be Muslim... but I just feel in my heart that it's right!"

"True, I cannot make a good argument for why I'm a Buddhist, but aren't the teachings so wonderful?"

"Maybe I can't give you intellectual reasons that I'm a Taoist, but I believe that these teachings have put me on the right spiritual path"

"I don't know how to defend my choice, but I know that my soul is really touched by the services in my pentecostal church"
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« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2010, 10:58:59 PM »

I would say that they are needed because, when you make choices without taking into consideration intellectual/rational arguments, you get into scenarios such as...

"Oh sure, I can't give you a reason to be Muslim... but I just feel in my heart that it's right!"

"True, I cannot make a good argument for why I'm a Buddhist, but aren't the teachings so wonderful?"

"Maybe I can't give you intellectual reasons that I'm a Taoist, but I believe that these teachings have put me on the right spiritual path"

"I don't know how to defend my choice, but I know that my soul is really touched by the services in my pentecostal church"

But that doesn't really tell me why it is necessary to have such arguments. I will agree that they are useful in explaining to others and debates etc. but that doesn't make them necessary. The danger here would be that using rational arguments will put a person in danger of using intellectual assent as justification for their faith. That's not exactly a healthy place to be--spiritually wise.
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« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2010, 01:00:56 AM »

No. That's just it. I can give you multiple intellectual reasons in defense of the Catholic Church but for Orthodoxy I have none. My only intellectual/rational argument for Orthodoxy at the moment is that somehow I believe that if the Holy Spirit is guiding me, He will be doing it through my heart and soul and not my intellect. We must be like children. And that's how I feel about Orthodoxy. I feel like a child who loves his mom and has no inkling of how to intellectualize a defense for that love.

Why is it necessary to have intellectual/rational arguments to be Orthodox??

I think because the truth oftentimes, at least in part, presents itself in an intellectual/rational manner.
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« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2010, 03:30:28 AM »

Sparrow, join the ACOE (Assyrian Church of the East). The Church which speaks Jesus's language, Aramaic and the Orthodox New Testament (the Peshitta, see my avatar ).
Rafa999, you do realize that attempts to draw persons into your jurisdiction are forbidden on this forum?  If not, I recommend that you read the following policy statement to this effect:

Proselytism and Forum Plugging hereby banned (created "NC" Nov 24, 2003) - UPDATED BELOW! - See Reply #1
Friends,

From now on, banners in signatures to other forums are not allowed although you may link to another forum or website in your signature, without comment.

From now on, you may not advertise your other web forum on our forum.  Links to threads on other forums are allowed, however, if they are pertinent to discussions here.

Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is no longer allowed.  I don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message.

You may not private message others to solicit them to join your forum, however.  We have the ability to read other people's private messages (this is disclosed in the member agreement you sign when joining the forum) and we don't do that usually, but we can, and we will, if we think you are trying to lure people away from our site.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.  From a human standpoint I would be lying if I said that some people in particular did not precipitate this action BUT at the same time there have been others over the past 1.5 years who have done this as well, so it is not just based on a knee-jerk reaction.

Stay tuned for an even more indepth statement on proselytism to be issued soon by all of us Admins.

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This seems slightly different to me as it is not a matter of intra-communal jurisdictional quibbling but rather inter-communal. Has that been addressed before, inter-communal proselytizing?
You may want to take that up with the moderators in private. Wink
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« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2010, 03:38:18 AM »

You may want to take that up with the moderators in private. Wink

Or take advantage of the offer to express your questions in this thread Wink
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« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2010, 04:22:02 AM »

But that doesn't really tell me why it is necessary to have such arguments. I will agree that they are useful in explaining to others and debates etc. but that doesn't make them necessary. The danger here would be that using rational arguments will put a person in danger of using intellectual assent as justification for their faith. That's not exactly a healthy place to be--spiritually wise.

Well, you know, as I thought about how to answer this, and I thought about the place that reason should have as it relates to religious beliefs or spirituality, I realised that the answer that I would give is probably outside the circle of tenable Orthodox beliefs. My opinions are just too naturalistic. I guess if I wanted to press the matter I would bring up the Bible verse... "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1 Pet. 3:15) ... though perhaps I am engaging in some eisegesis here in thinking that this is speaking of intellectual/rational arguments.
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« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2010, 05:32:04 AM »

You may want to take that up with the moderators in private. Wink

Or take advantage of the offer to express your questions in this thread Wink
Yeah, that would be a good idea, too. Wink
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« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2010, 07:23:35 AM »

If I read
Anything, even Zen Buddhism, sounds good if I read about it. There is some good in everything. For this reason I never try to convince people to become Orthodox Christians on this forum, even if they ask me to (as this thread does). St. Maximos the Confessor said "Theology without praxis is the theology of demons", which echoes what St. James says in his Epistle: "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" (James 2:19). Orthodox Christianity has to be lived, it can't be only be theorized about. This starts simply then builds up, for example, we can begin by attending Liturgy regularly, keeping the Wednesday and Friday Fasts, and giving alms to the poor. Above all, we need a Community of believers around us, a group who take the practice of their their Faith seriously. These are the people who "smell of incense" as we say in Greek, that is, they are regularly in the Church.
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« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2010, 06:06:11 AM »

Where can I get orthodox teaching, or be taught orthodoxy?
From Topic poster.

I understand what's it like to abandon old ways for the new way, just as example people from French or Spanish, have to abandon their way of reading their language, and adopt a new way of reading the new language (example English).
I saw this when my Dad taught English to Mexican farm workers.
one of them pronounced «People» as [pe ople] [πε-οπ-λε] not as pi p upside down e l [pipl], he wouldn't abandon his Mexican pronunciation which made him sound like a complete idiot in English. I know that it requires, that you forget your way, and adopt God's way.
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« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2010, 02:48:08 PM »

Where can I get orthodox teaching, or be taught orthodoxy?
From Topic poster.

I understand what's it like to abandon old ways for the new way, just as example people from French or Spanish, have to abandon their way of reading their language, and adopt a new way of reading the new language (example English).
I saw this when my Dad taught English to Mexican farm workers.
one of them pronounced «People» as [pe ople] [πε-οπ-λε] not as pi p upside down e l [pipl], he wouldn't abandon his Mexican pronunciation which made him sound like a complete idiot in English. I know that it requires, that you forget your way, and adopt God's way.

Inanswer to "Where can I get orthodox teaching, or be taught orthodoxy?"

From an Orthodox Priest, pastor of your local parish.

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« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2010, 07:43:32 PM »

[/quote]
Anything, even Zen Buddhism, sounds good if I read about it. There is some good in everything. For this reason I never try to convince people to become Orthodox Christians on this forum, even if they ask me to (as this thread does). St. Maximos the Confessor said "Theology without praxis is the theology of demons", which echoes what St. James says in his Epistle: "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" (James 2:19). Orthodox Christianity has to be lived, it can't be only be theorized about. This starts simply then builds up, for example, we can begin by attending Liturgy regularly, keeping the Wednesday and Friday Fasts, and giving alms to the poor. Above all, we need a Community of believers around us, a group who take the practice of their their Faith seriously. These are the people who "smell of incense" as we say in Greek, that is, they are regularly in the Church.
[/quote]


That's excellent. That's what our families have been doing for 1700+ years!
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« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2010, 12:26:54 AM »

That's it I want to be orthodox, this church is the new testament church which gave us the Bible.
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« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2010, 05:43:08 AM »


That's it I want to be orthodox, this church is the new testament church which gave us the Bible.

Which church?
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« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2010, 12:37:49 PM »

deusveritasest, the one this website is dedicated to...
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« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2010, 01:05:44 PM »

That's it I want to be orthodox, this church is the new testament church which gave us the Bible.

I sincerely wish you all the best as you begin the new stage of your journey, and I hope you finish the race as one triumphant.

It is a difficult path at times, and I warn you out of love that there will be times when you are tempted to give up.  However, only those who can endure will receive the crown, and so you will stay the course and remain faithful to your 'first love' who is Jesus Christ, whom you will find in the Church.

Do not let anyone or anything steal your commitment or your joy, because these are gifts from God that cannot be replaced.

The Church has given us more than the Bible, but rather the Bible as part of a rich and wonderful Tradition which you will spend a lifetime experiencing and learning.  You will discover many things that you have taken for granted have, in fact, been born from the Church, because the Church is the Church of the True Creator.

If you truly repent and crucify your flesh as we are all called to do, you will experience the presence of the Living God and be filled with His love and mercy.  The closer you draw to Him, the more good will be born of you and the more you will flee from temptation.  You will have peace, perhaps for the first time in your life.

God bless you.
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« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2010, 08:20:45 PM »


deusveritasest, the one this website is dedicated to...

Which church is that?
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« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2010, 09:44:20 PM »


deusveritasest, the one this website is dedicated to...

Which church is that?

My guess is: No particular Orthodox Church. Rather, it is named after small o orthodoxy. After all, if I remember correctly, at the time of the creation of this site, two out of three of the admins weren't Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2010, 10:03:54 PM »


deusveritasest, the one this website is dedicated to...

Which church is that?

My guess is: No particular Orthodox Church. Rather, it is named after small o orthodoxy. After all, if I remember correctly, at the time of the creation of this site, two out of three of the admins weren't Eastern Orthodox.

Then my question as to which church Christianus is speaking of wanting to join appears to have not really been answered yet.
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« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2010, 01:25:50 AM »

Wait, I thought this site was an EO site that allowed others to come in and post... am I wrong in that assumption?
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« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2010, 01:53:28 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tirUy13Q_L8&feature=related
This will help your decision.

Beware of modern ecumenism, it is the foundation for the kingdom of the anti-christ.

The pope is making it all happen, he's trying hard to usher in a one world religion, which has basically already happened.
Watch and see,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEC6e8N0Wfk&feature=PlayList&p=A5FB5BA9B8224F11&index=0

This is no joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjxtEn_UXA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gke1BN7k2gM&feature=related

Some orthodox elders are on YouTube have some good insights into it

Rome = Whore of babylon from the book of Revelation, The heretic church.

Dont lose hope..

Orthodoxy is not dead yet.

Ive heard from someone, a priest, that the OCA (orthodox church of america) is going to be under metropolitan Jonah, who is old calendar(meaning its not ecumenical). And that all of the churches ; romanian, serbian, russian ,etc (I dont think the greek), are going to join together under Metropolitan Jonah. Lets pray that this shall be so.

Here is about Jonah,
http://bloggingsbetter.wordpress.com/category/metropolitan-jonah/



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« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2010, 02:31:16 AM »

Wait, I thought this site was an EO site that allowed others to come in and post... am I wrong in that assumption?

You could be right. I don't know. I asked recently in the Questions About Forum Policy thread for clarification on what the purpose of this forum is supposed to be, and what place non-Orthodox posters have. As for my comment in this thread, I mostly just wanted to point out something that some people might not have been aware of. The original name of the site was Byzantines.org, and it later became orthodoxchristianity.net, as outlined in this thread by Fr. Anastasios. As you'll notice from that thread, not all the admins at the time were actually Orthodox yet. And the term that Fr. Anastasios uses in that thread to decribe the forum is "Orthodox-oriented," make of that what you will. Here is what Fr. Anastasios said three days after OC.net was up and running:

Quote
I, anastasios, am Byzantine Catholic but am interested in Orthodoxy and attend St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary;

Mor Ephrem is Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox;

Nik is a catechumen in ROCOR;

Bobby is in the process of joining the OCA.

Other moderators in the past such as Orthodoc and Dr. Mether are Orthodox; we will see about getting new moderators, etc. who are Orthodox shortly.

We started this board as a way to give a service to the Orthodox community and also to get our questions about Orthodoxy answered.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

In Christ,

anastasios
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« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2010, 02:43:49 AM »


Wait, I thought this site was an EO site that allowed others to come in and post... am I wrong in that assumption?

Even if it was EOy is not restricted to one particular communion as is evidenced by some of the moderators serving here.
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« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2010, 02:45:33 AM »


Ive heard from someone, a priest, that the OCA (orthodox church of america) is going to be under metropolitan Jonah, who is old calendar(meaning its not ecumenical).

No. The OCA is, for the most part, on the Revised Julian Calendar.
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« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2010, 02:50:01 AM »

Wait, I thought this site was an EO site that allowed others to come in and post... am I wrong in that assumption?

It's an Orthodox site, but not specifically EO:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24177.msg381079.html#msg381079
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« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2010, 02:58:09 AM »

Thanks Salpy.

As such, my question still stands.
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« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2010, 02:58:37 AM »


That's it I want to be orthodox, this church is the new testament church which gave us the Bible.

Which church?

I would imagine he is speaking of the Eastern Orthodox Church, since that is the Church he visited with his family and which he is exploring.  I think he is in good hands and I am happy for him.  

Let's not interfere.  This isn't the place for that discussion.   Smiley
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« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2010, 03:05:19 AM »


I would imagine he is speaking of the Eastern Orthodox Church, since that is the Church he visited with his family and which he is exploring.

Ah, ok. That makes sense. He talked about that in a different thread and thus it didn't come to my mind that that was what he was referring to.
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« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2010, 01:07:28 PM »


I would imagine he is speaking of the Eastern Orthodox Church, since that is the Church he visited with his family and which he is exploring.

Ah, ok. That makes sense. He talked about that in a different thread and thus it didn't come to my mind that that was what he was referring to.

As a Moderator in a different forum once told me long ago, "When all else fails, read the thread."  Wink
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« Reply #95 on: January 26, 2010, 03:37:14 AM »

How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)
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« Reply #96 on: January 26, 2010, 04:07:01 AM »


How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.
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« Reply #97 on: January 26, 2010, 12:30:38 PM »


How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

Well, in my experience, the biggest jump most people will ever make is just settling down to a single parish and making the decision to stick it out, after which Baptism and Chrismation become inevitable steps.  Most people will get hung up at that stage and never get in the door.  Sometimes the problem lies with the parishes immediately within reach or experience, but most of the time the hold-up is with the person himself.

It is kind of like Marriage: we think of the ceremony as the 'big leap,' but it actually the finalization of a decision made long ago, since one first has to deliberate whether to marry to begin with.

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« Reply #98 on: January 26, 2010, 01:02:23 PM »


How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

Well, in my experience, the biggest jump most people will ever make is just settling down to a single parish and making the decision to stick it out, after which Baptism and Chrismation become inevitable steps.  Most people will get hung up at that stage and never get in the door.  Sometimes the problem lies with the parishes immediately within reach or experience, but most of the time the hold-up is with the person himself.

It is kind of like Marriage: we think of the ceremony as the 'big leap,' but it actually the finalization of a decision made long ago, since one first has to deliberate whether to marry to begin with.


One would think: the present divorce culture reveals many can't distinguish marriage from dating.
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« Reply #99 on: January 26, 2010, 01:36:29 PM »


How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

Well, in my experience, the biggest jump most people will ever make is just settling down to a single parish and making the decision to stick it out, after which Baptism and Chrismation become inevitable steps.  Most people will get hung up at that stage and never get in the door.  Sometimes the problem lies with the parishes immediately within reach or experience, but most of the time the hold-up is with the person himself.

It is kind of like Marriage: we think of the ceremony as the 'big leap,' but it actually the finalization of a decision made long ago, since one first has to deliberate whether to marry to begin with.


One would think: the present divorce culture reveals many can't distinguish marriage from dating.

Quite true.  I just recently had to explain to a newly-married man that his wife expects dating to continue ad infinitum, that life is one big date from her perspective, whereas he sees dating as an 'accomplishment' that he has overcome in order to score the prize (i.e. marriage).

This is because we now encourage 'dating' rather than courting, and we have young people getting emotionally involved with people they have no intention of marrying, simply because they 'enjoy' the hunt.  The problem arises when they take it too far and make poor decision when blinded by lonliness, sexual desires, insecurity, etc.

I think the biggest problem with marriages these days is that couples expect marriages to fulfill their desires for happiness all the time.  They do not expect hardship and suffering, and will leave the relationship the moment things become difficult.  Society does not offer shame as an incentive to keep a couple from divorcing, and so we have loads of broken marriages and children.

Marriage is a cross to bear, and it is supposed to lead to salvation and survival, not necessarily constant earthly bliss.  I think we are doing a disservice to many people by constantly shoving the expectation of happiness down their throats when none of us truly experience such happiness in this life without God, who is hardly featured in any marital counseling.

I find overcoming these infantile expectations so hard with most folks that I dread pre-marital counseling.  After all, they are adults who made up their minds from watching TV or their own parents, and most people care little about what I have to say.  Oh, well, I wish everyone the best but my expectations are low.

Allow me to say that I am all for marital bliss and concord, but I do not think we should expect it all the time.  That's the big marriage killer, if you ask me.

Think of it this way: how many of us, while dating, would still marry the same spouse if we knew he/she would be struck with a long, debilitating disease that would require us to give up all our pleasures to nurse our spouse through to certain death?  Folks long ago saw such examples far more often, and were more prepared for such events than we are now.

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« Reply #100 on: January 26, 2010, 03:20:35 PM »


How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

Well, in my experience, the biggest jump most people will ever make is just settling down to a single parish and making the decision to stick it out, after which Baptism and Chrismation become inevitable steps.  Most people will get hung up at that stage and never get in the door.  Sometimes the problem lies with the parishes immediately within reach or experience, but most of the time the hold-up is with the person himself.

It is kind of like Marriage: we think of the ceremony as the 'big leap,' but it actually the finalization of a decision made long ago, since one first has to deliberate whether to marry to begin with.


One would think: the present divorce culture reveals many can't distinguish marriage from dating.

Quite true.  I just recently had to explain to a newly-married man that his wife expects dating to continue ad infinitum, that life is one big date from her perspective, whereas he sees dating as an 'accomplishment' that he has overcome in order to score the prize (i.e. marriage).

This is because we now encourage 'dating' rather than courting, and we have young people getting emotionally involved with people they have no intention of marrying, simply because they 'enjoy' the hunt.  The problem arises when they take it too far and make poor decision when blinded by lonliness, sexual desires, insecurity, etc.

I think the biggest problem with marriages these days is that couples expect marriages to fulfill their desires for happiness all the time.  They do not expect hardship and suffering, and will leave the relationship the moment things become difficult.  Society does not offer shame as an incentive to keep a couple from divorcing, and so we have loads of broken marriages and children.

Marriage is a cross to bear, and it is supposed to lead to salvation and survival, not necessarily constant earthly bliss.  I think we are doing a disservice to many people by constantly shoving the expectation of happiness down their throats when none of us truly experience such happiness in this life without God, who is hardly featured in any marital counseling.

I find overcoming these infantile expectations so hard with most folks that I dread pre-marital counseling.  After all, they are adults who made up their minds from watching TV or their own parents, and most people care little about what I have to say.  Oh, well, I wish everyone the best but my expectations are low.

Allow me to say that I am all for marital bliss and concord, but I do not think we should expect it all the time.  That's the big marriage killer, if you ask me.

Think of it this way: how many of us, while dating, would still marry the same spouse if we knew he/she would be struck with a long, debilitating disease that would require us to give up all our pleasures to nurse our spouse through to certain death?  Folks long ago saw such examples far more often, and were more prepared for such events than we are now.



Yeah,too many people living for mundane pleasure,money, sex, alcohol etc.
I agree on the marriage part, I see girls just ask guys they don't even know to go to bed with them, what stupidity if they have a child then he's a witness to their concupiscence Wis 4:6  ex iniquis enim omnes filii qui nascuntur testes sunt nequitiae adversus parentes in interrogatione sua

 , and they most likely don't even love anything about each-other.
people just want the carnal mate, not a spiritual humble loving one, as far I commonly see in my society.
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« Reply #101 on: January 26, 2010, 03:23:03 PM »

When I was 16 years old, I felt the same way you do; I read as much as I could about the Orthodox Church.  I read WAY OF A PILGRIM (about the Jesus prayer).  I started saying the Jesus Prayer.  But I was raised a Roman Catholic and remained so while veering off into Tibetan Buddhism for a time, which taught me the discipline of (1)  Sitting Still and (2)  How to concentrate the racing mind. 

FINALLY....(I'm now 64 years old), last August (2009), I converted to Russian Orthodoxy and I love it.  I know that I've arrived 'home'.

You must first learn to be patient and then let God steer you.  Let Him whisper in your ear.  Eventually, if you allow God's love into your Heart, you will become Orthodox. 

Know that Conversion isn't a Mental War ('Convince me') but rather something that will speak to your Heart and Soul, gently but persistently.
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« Reply #102 on: January 26, 2010, 03:24:21 PM »

^ Welcome, chatelaa.  Thank you for sharing your story!
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« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2010, 04:17:56 PM »

When I was 16 years old, I felt the same way you do; I read as much as I could about the Orthodox Church.  I read WAY OF A PILGRIM (about the Jesus prayer).  I started saying the Jesus Prayer.  But I was raised a Roman Catholic and remained so while veering off into Tibetan Buddhism for a time, which taught me the discipline of (1)  Sitting Still and (2)  How to concentrate the racing mind. 

FINALLY....(I'm now 64 years old), last August (2009), I converted to Russian Orthodoxy and I love it.  I know that I've arrived 'home'.

You must first learn to be patient and then let God steer you.  Let Him whisper in your ear.  Eventually, if you allow God's love into your Heart, you will become Orthodox. 

Know that Conversion isn't a Mental War ('Convince me') but rather something that will speak to your Heart and Soul, gently but persistently.

Welcome (back) to the forum!  (He actually registered and made his first post in May of 2009.)
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« Reply #104 on: January 26, 2010, 04:22:17 PM »

Quote
Marriage is a cross to bear, and it is supposed to lead to salvation and survival, not necessarily constant earthly bliss.

I'm going with constant earthly bliss. Thankfully that's what marriage can offer when you don't get into a "Marriage is WORK! Marriage is SACRIFICE!" mode.
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« Reply #105 on: January 26, 2010, 04:25:33 PM »

I'm going with constant earthly bliss. Thankfully that's what marriage can offer when you don't get into a "Marriage is WORK! Marriage is SACRIFICE!" mode.

I think people just tend to emphasize this as a reaction to popular culture's casual attitudes about marriage.  I have had many friends that honestly believed before getting married that "If it doesn't work out, I'll just get a divorce."
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« Reply #106 on: January 26, 2010, 04:42:47 PM »

I'm going with constant earthly bliss. Thankfully that's what marriage can offer when you don't get into a "Marriage is WORK! Marriage is SACRIFICE!" mode.

I think people just tend to emphasize this as a reaction to popular culture's casual attitudes about marriage.  I have had many friends that honestly believed before getting married that "If it doesn't work out, I'll just get a divorce."

I can understand that. I guess I just don't know how to react when people say that, because it didn't really mirror my experience in marriage. Sure, there is work to do, and there are crosses to carry, but there'd be work to do and crosses to carry if you were single as well (e.g. the whole no sex till marriage thing).  We were told all that work/sacrifice/crosses stuff in pre-marital counseling, but in reality I rarely encountered anything as difficult as that type of language would seem to imply.

As for divorcing, well, that's an interesting one. Both my wife and I said that we'd never get a divorce. It just wasn't an option. My mother has been married 5 times, my father 4 times, so I'm plenty familiar with it, lol. Familiar enough to know that I didn't want to go that route. It's interesting how things go, though, because I did eventually end up on that path. Sometimes you have the best of intentions when you begin a marriage, though your train gets derailed at some point on it's journey. As for casual attitudes about serious relationships in general... well maybe my opinions aren't quite in line with Orthodoxy. Smiley
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« Reply #107 on: January 26, 2010, 04:58:57 PM »

Quote
Marriage is a cross to bear, and it is supposed to lead to salvation and survival, not necessarily constant earthly bliss.

I'm going with constant earthly bliss. Thankfully that's what marriage can offer when you don't get into a "Marriage is WORK! Marriage is SACRIFICE!" mode.

So, just for the sake of my own curiousity, could you answer one small question: if you were diagnosed with MS, would it be OK for your wife to divorce you so she would not have to suffer with you?

Would you divorce your wife if she was the one with the diagnosis?

The reason I ask is that, if we take your statement to the logical conclusion, then...

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« Reply #108 on: January 26, 2010, 05:15:56 PM »

So, just for the sake of my own curiousity, could you answer one small question: if you were diagnosed with MS, would it be OK for your wife to divorce you so she would not have to suffer with you?

If you had asked me that question seven years ago when I got married, I would have emphatically answered no, it would not be alright. And I still don't believe that people should get married with the plan that they will get a divorce if times get tough. Nonetheless, to answer your question, in the present I would have been OK with my wife divorcing me in a situation like that.

Quote
Would you divorce your wife if she was the one with the diagnosis?

I doubt it. I'd like to definitively say no. However, even though I'm relatively young, I've still had enough exprience in life to realise that often what you think you'd do doesn't always match what you'll actually do when the decision time arrives. I wouldn't know for sure how I'd answer that kind of question until I was put knee-deep in the situation.
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« Reply #109 on: January 26, 2010, 05:28:28 PM »


How do I make the jump into Orthodoxy? ( I went to a Greek orthodox church. after we left the church my Dad said we should go to a catholic church, and I told him that we just did haha.)

It's probably not time to "make the jump into Orthodoxy" yet. "The jump" is being Baptized/Chrismated. Right now is just time for the baby step of finding a congregation/spiritual father that you want to develop a closer relationship with.

Well, in my experience, the biggest jump most people will ever make is just settling down to a single parish and making the decision to stick it out, after which Baptism and Chrismation become inevitable steps.  Most people will get hung up at that stage and never get in the door.  Sometimes the problem lies with the parishes immediately within reach or experience, but most of the time the hold-up is with the person himself.

It is kind of like Marriage: we think of the ceremony as the 'big leap,' but it actually the finalization of a decision made long ago, since one first has to deliberate whether to marry to begin with.



That sort of dedication, I think, is still at least a step or two after what should probably be an exploratory phase now.
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« Reply #110 on: January 26, 2010, 05:50:26 PM »

So, just for the sake of my own curiousity, could you answer one small question: if you were diagnosed with MS, would it be OK for your wife to divorce you so she would not have to suffer with you?

If you had asked me that question seven years ago when I got married, I would have emphatically answered no, it would not be alright. And I still don't believe that people should get married with the plan that they will get a divorce if times get tough. Nonetheless, to answer your question, in the present I would have been OK with my wife divorcing me in a situation like that.

Quote
Would you divorce your wife if she was the one with the diagnosis?

I doubt it. I'd like to definitively say no. However, even though I'm relatively young, I've still had enough exprience in life to realise that often what you think you'd do doesn't always match what you'll actually do when the decision time arrives. I wouldn't know for sure how I'd answer that kind of question until I was put knee-deep in the situation.

I appreciate your honesty.

First, there is a difference between being taught what is right and failing, versus never being taught right at all.

I think you instinctually understand that it would be wrong to run out on a sufferign spouse, but I have encountered too many couples who have never been taught such a thing because they have only known the romantic, fun-in-the-sun version of marriage.  These are the folks that I pity because their consciences still trouble them, but they don't have the wherewithal to act according to their consciences.  So, they runand still feel bad about it, but don't know enough to go back.

I was tempted to ask how young you are, and I think your answer says enough to that.

Second, I never said that marriage was misery, and I do believe it can bring joys.  Sometimes, those joys are the overcoming of trials.  The Cross is our joy, because it is the stepping stone to our transformation.  I do not advocate suffering for the sake of suffering, but rather the acceptance of suffering that changes us and makes us better.

As your marriage is tested with suffering, you will gain a greater love and appreciation for your spouse.  That's what I'm talking about.  If your marriage is not tested by suffering, then you will never know your own strength, the strength of your spouse or how much God really loves you and grants His grace for you to endure hardship.

People deal better with suffering when their suffering has meaning. You will punish yourself in the gym if you think that the pain leads to a better body.  If we teach couples that suffering in marriage draws us closer to God through endurance and leads to a stronger, happier marriage, then I think you would see the divorce rate go down.

In the meantime, enjoy your marriage and your youth.  You have much more ahead of you.

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« Reply #111 on: January 26, 2010, 06:03:16 PM »

Fr. Giryus

Thank you for your post. I private messaged you about my current situation, which is probably coloring my perspective.
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« Reply #112 on: January 26, 2010, 09:44:09 PM »

How can I learn Greek, anyone know some good sites, or some good books, so far I've learned Latin (which basically saved me from ignorance of church history) off of my Spanish, and some very good books online,reading the Vulgate Bible with an interlinear Bible and Wheelock's Latin.I have to say that my understanding of Latin is very good, my Latin syntax is almost perfect, I only need vocabulary and stuff, and I just borrow from spanish for modern terms so much that I feel that Latin can be made a living language again if people only tried (which will never really happen, also the catholic church is abandoning it.)
I"ve noticed how similar Latin and Greek are grammatically, the vocabulary is very different.
like Pater latin Πατήρ (clas gr. paté:r modern eccl. patír), are few of the clearly similar words.
I've noticed that the Greek use the dative case as the ablative case in Latin example.
ταῖς σαῖς πρεσβείαις ρπῦσαί με πάσης ἀκαθαρσίας.
By your intercession deliver me from every uncleannes.
a Service matin I got at the church glory mode pl. 4c
oh by the way what are these service matins which I got at church?
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« Reply #113 on: January 26, 2010, 09:57:55 PM »

How can I learn Greek, anyone know some good sites, or some good books, so far I've learned Latin (which basically saved me from ignorance of church history) off of my Spanish, and some very good books online,reading the Vulgate Bible with an interlinear Bible and Wheelock's Latin.I have to say that my understanding of Latin is very good, my Latin syntax is almost perfect, I only need vocabulary and stuff, and I just borrow from spanish for modern terms so much that I feel that Latin can be made a living language again if people only tried (which will never really happen, also the catholic church is abandoning it.)
I"ve noticed how similar Latin and Greek are grammatically, the vocabulary is very different.
like Pater latin Πατήρ (clas gr. paté:r modern eccl. patír), are few of the clearly similar words.
I've noticed that the Greek use the dative case as the ablative case in Latin example.
ταῖς σαῖς πρεσβείαις ρπῦσαί με πάσης ἀκαθαρσίας.
By your intercession deliver me from every uncleannes.
a Service matin I got at the church glory mode pl. 4c
oh by the way what are these service matins which I got at church?


I think Greek was highly influential in the development of Latin.
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« Reply #114 on: January 27, 2010, 01:04:14 AM »

How can I learn Greek, anyone know some good sites, or some good books, so far I've learned Latin (which basically saved me from ignorance of church history) off of my Spanish, and some very good books online,reading the Vulgate Bible with an interlinear Bible and Wheelock's Latin.I have to say that my understanding of Latin is very good, my Latin syntax is almost perfect, I only need vocabulary and stuff, and I just borrow from spanish for modern terms so much that I feel that Latin can be made a living language again if people only tried (which will never really happen, also the catholic church is abandoning it.)
I"ve noticed how similar Latin and Greek are grammatically, the vocabulary is very different.
like Pater latin Πατήρ (clas gr. paté:r modern eccl. patír), are few of the clearly similar words.
I've noticed that the Greek use the dative case as the ablative case in Latin example.
ταῖς σαῖς πρεσβείαις ρπῦσαί με πάσης ἀκαθαρσίας.
By your intercession deliver me from every uncleannes.
a Service matin I got at the church glory mode pl. 4c
oh by the way what are these service matins which I got at church?


I think Greek was highly influential in the development of Latin.
yeah I think so too, but Greek had 5 cases Latin had 6 (but really 4 then 5, because of the vocative cases).
Latin had mores cases including the archaic nouns with the locative cases,but anyway Greek writers influenced roman writers a lot.
though could someone tell me of the Latinisms in modern Greek, I can only think of the words πορτα καὶ στουνδιο?
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« Reply #115 on: January 27, 2010, 02:41:17 AM »

God, my two topics already have at least 200 posts. this forum is truely alive, (unlike that dead baptist forum I joined years ago to which I no longer go because it's dead.) wow
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« Reply #116 on: January 27, 2010, 03:04:25 AM »

God, my two topics already have at least 200 posts. this forum is truely alive...

Well there's your proof of how alive Orthodoxy is!  Have you now been convinced?  Wink
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« Reply #117 on: January 27, 2010, 03:52:44 PM »

Satisfied but not convinced. I'm a flip flopper. With Catholicism I have to be convinced by surrounding myself with Catholic conversion stories and apologetics. I will feel very at ease where I'm at. But as soon as I come back here or listen to Ancient Faith Radio and without any apologetics I find myself drawn to Orthodoxy again.

In the old days, before the more relaxed attitudes stemming from Vatican II took hold in the Catholic world, it was nearly always the position of the Pope which kept potential converts to Orthodoxy flipflopping.    Belief in the necessity of being in communion with the Pope and under obedience to him ran so deeply that people had a genuine sneaking fear that abandoning him deliberately might endanger their salvation.

Do some people still feel that way?



Yes.  When we converted from Catholicism six years ago, it was a major issue.  My devout Catholic friends still bring it up from time to time.
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« Reply #118 on: January 29, 2010, 04:46:17 PM »

no one can convince you to join Orthodoxy except God, himself!  He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.  I was raised protestant.  I then fell in love with Catholicism.  the first time I went into an Orthodox church, I had a very closed mind.  I thought the Catholic church was the only true church.  when I stepped in, the choir started singing, and I felt that God was truly here.  moreso than any other church I'd been to. 

This is a very interesting list of fourty excuses for not joining the Orthodox church:

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/40excuse.htm

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« Reply #119 on: January 29, 2010, 09:33:23 PM »


He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #120 on: January 29, 2010, 10:12:38 PM »


He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

I've always thought there was always one.  Now my curiousity is aroused.

Liturgically, the Orthodox Church (comprising Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, etc.) uses the term "Orthodox" to describe itself.  We frequently use "Orthodox" in hymns and petitions.

Does the Coptic Church do the same? Armenians? Syriac?  Does the word Orthodox appear in the hymnody of these churches, or only in theological materials not used liturgically?

I am asking because I simply don't know, and have been told that the term 'Oriental Orthodox' is a theological term of recent invention because to not use it would imply heresy.

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« Reply #121 on: January 29, 2010, 10:30:05 PM »


He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?
You won't find out by doing a Google search, because many have claimed the title. But there is (and can only be) One Church.
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« Reply #122 on: January 29, 2010, 11:25:08 PM »


He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

Like I said above in reply 92, this is not the place for that discussion.   Smiley   Be nice.
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« Reply #123 on: January 29, 2010, 11:31:13 PM »


Does the Coptic Church do the same? Armenians? Syriac?  Does the word Orthodox appear in the hymnody of these churches, or only in theological materials not used liturgically?

I am asking because I simply don't know, and have been told that the term 'Oriental Orthodox' is a theological term of recent invention because to not use it would imply heresy.

[/font][/size]

Father,

In the Armenian Church, both ooghapar ("Orthodox") and arakelagan ("Apostolic") are used to describe ourselves.  Arakelagan tends to be used more often.  It is my understanding, though, that the other OO Churches have always called themselves "Orthodox."  The "Oriental" part, I think, is recent, and is used to distinguish us from the EO's.   Smiley
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« Reply #124 on: January 30, 2010, 12:04:38 AM »


Does the Coptic Church do the same? Armenians? Syriac?  Does the word Orthodox appear in the hymnody of these churches, or only in theological materials not used liturgically?

I am asking because I simply don't know, and have been told that the term 'Oriental Orthodox' is a theological term of recent invention because to not use it would imply heresy.

[/font][/size]

Father,

In the Armenian Church, both ooghapar ("Orthodox") and arakelagan ("Apostolic") are used to describe ourselves.  Arakelagan tends to be used more often.  It is my understanding, though, that the other OO Churches have always called themselves "Orthodox."  The "Oriental" part, I think, is recent, and is used to distinguish us from the EO's.   Smiley

Thank you for the clarification!

Yes, the strange world of 'differentiation' leads to all sorts of interesting linguistical taxonomies.

For example, the Greco-Orthodox in the Middle East identify themselves as Roum (literally, 'Roman') and the Roman Catholic identify as Melki (as 'Imperial'), though the exact opposite would be inferred from  the English.

Anyway, I appreciate the information.  This reminds me that I need to track down (and gobble down) some basturma before the fast sets in!

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« Reply #125 on: January 30, 2010, 07:50:59 PM »


He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

I've always thought there was always one.  Now my curiousity is aroused.

Liturgically, the Orthodox Church (comprising Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, etc.) uses the term "Orthodox" to describe itself.  We frequently use "Orthodox" in hymns and petitions.

Does the Coptic Church do the same? Armenians? Syriac?  Does the word Orthodox appear in the hymnody of these churches, or only in theological materials not used liturgically?

I am asking because I simply don't know, and have been told that the term 'Oriental Orthodox' is a theological term of recent invention because to not use it would imply heresy.



Well, I wasn't even necessarily thinking of the OOC. For instance, there is a communion of EO Old Calendarist churches who believe that they are the legitimate EOC. There are numerous groups that commonly use "Orthodox" to refer to themselves, and may very well be the legitimate Orthodox Church.

My experience liturgical experience with Copts is that they frequently refer to themselves as orthodox.

And apparently the Armenians do as well.

I think it is common historically for the OO also to use "orthodox" as the primary description of themselves.

However, you are perhaps right that "Oriental Orthodox" is a modern invention.
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« Reply #126 on: January 30, 2010, 07:51:54 PM »


He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?
You won't find out by doing a Google search, because many have claimed the title. But there is (and can only be) One Church.

Ontologically, yes, I'm aware. But there are many that are called the Orthodox Church. And thus it is worth asking when someone is referring to "the Orthodox Church" exactly what body they are referring to.
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« Reply #127 on: January 30, 2010, 07:53:07 PM »


He, with his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, started the Orthodox church 2000 years ago.

Which Orthodox Church?

Like I said above in reply 92, this is not the place for that discussion.   Smiley   Be nice.

Well I generally assume that by that name people usually mean the "canonical" Eastern Orthodox Church. But I just want to make sure. And I wish people would simply be clear in the first place about it.
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« Reply #128 on: January 30, 2010, 07:55:10 PM »


and the Roman Catholic identify as Melki (as 'Imperial'),

I thought that was only the case with one of the particular Byzantine rite churches?
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« Reply #129 on: February 03, 2010, 12:01:59 AM »

I can't decide if I want to be western or eastern catholic.
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« Reply #130 on: February 03, 2010, 12:23:32 PM »

I can't decide if I want to be western or eastern catholic.

Proselytizing removed.



I shouldn't have to remind you that this is an Orthodox Christian Forum, and you are attempting to proselytize to the Roman Catholic Faith in our Convert Issues forum - an area specifically for those considering Orthodoxy.  However, since it's obvious you haven't paid attention either to the Forum's Rules, or to the Convert Issues purpose, I'm issuing a warning (duration = 90 days) and admonishing you to not do this again, or else you will be placed on Post Moderation, or Muted from the Forum.

If you feel that this warning is in error, feel free to PM Fr. Chris.

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« Reply #131 on: February 03, 2010, 12:32:03 PM »

No habla espanol Wink
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« Reply #132 on: February 03, 2010, 12:34:18 PM »

No habla espanol Wink

Sorry it was for Christianus who does speak spanish. sorry
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« Reply #133 on: February 03, 2010, 12:43:33 PM »

Oh! No, I was in the wrong then, I apologize.  Smiley
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« Reply #134 on: February 03, 2010, 12:51:49 PM »


and the Roman Catholic identify as Melki (as 'Imperial'),

I thought that was only the case with one of the particular Byzantine rite churches?

Forgot about this one, sorry.  Nowadays, Melki is used to describe "Byzantine Rite Catholics" who are descendents of Orthodox who broke with the Patriarchate of Antioch to seek the protection from Rome during the rather bad latter days of the Ottomans.  They are different from Lateens who practice the Western Rite and Maronites who were a completely different sect that was absorbed around the same time and are found primarily in Lebanon.

Prior to the schism, Melki was used to describe Byzantines who remained loyal to the Chalcedonian Churches (who had Imperial Roman patronage) as opposed to the Non-Chalcedonian Churches (who formed dual Patriarchates in Antioch, Jerusalem and [depending on how you look at it] Alexandria.  For some reason, when the Melkite Schism occured, the Orthodox kept the Roum and the Roman Catholics got the Melki, sort of like when a divorce occurs and the husband gets the sewing machine and the wife gets the chain saw.

It is all very tragic for all concerned.

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« Reply #135 on: February 03, 2010, 02:17:19 PM »

Nowadays, Melki is used to describe "Byzantine Rite Catholics" who are descendents of Orthodox who broke with the Patriarchate of Antioch to seek the protection from Rome during the rather bad latter days of the Ottomans.  They are different from Lateens who practice the Western Rite and Maronites who were a completely different sect that was absorbed around the same time and are found primarily in Lebanon.

Prior to the schism, Melki was used to describe Byzantines who remained loyal to the Chalcedonian Churches (who had Imperial Roman patronage) as opposed to the Non-Chalcedonian Churches (who formed dual Patriarchates in Antioch, Jerusalem and [depending on how you look at it] Alexandria.  For some reason, when the Melkite Schism occured, the Orthodox kept the Roum and the Roman Catholics got the Melki, sort of like when a divorce occurs and the husband gets the sewing machine and the wife gets the chain saw.

But weren't the Melki thoroughly latinized until the renovations in the eastern rites following Vatican II?
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« Reply #136 on: February 03, 2010, 02:18:27 PM »

I can't decide if I want to be western or eastern catholic.

The Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church, without Old Rome.
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« Reply #137 on: February 03, 2010, 02:31:17 PM »

I can't decide if I want to be western or eastern catholic.

The Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church, without Old Rome.

Very true, and Alonso, we have ecclesiastical/administrative unity as well as unity of faith. You just fail to see this because you think of administrative unity as being under one head of a church (the Pope in this case). Sure in America we have jurisdictional differences, but we are still all one Church in faith and in administration. Also, just because someone is/is not of a certain race, doesn't mean he should follow his ancestors. I have Native American blood in me, and yet I don't worship in the way they did. We are to follow the TRUTH, not the example of our ancestors. The truth lays in the Orthodox Church, not in blood & ancestry.

Also, just because our Church suffered greatly under the Muslims doesn't make us any less right. You appear to live in a world where you think that the right Church converts all. I'm sorry, but the Roman Catholic Church sure isn't a good example of that, especially after the murder of thousands of natives in the Americas, as well as murder of thousands of others who refused to convert. Our Church doesn't force conversions, many people were lost to the Muslims because the Muslims DID force conversions, some did indeed convert to Islam to avoid death, but others didn't, and some fled. The true Christian attitude towards adversity does not lead to success in a worldly sense. We are to choose to die (and thus will live) if we are told to renounce Christ. If people do this, then obviously the numbers of Orthodox is going to decrease as we've seen time and time again. The number of faithful in the Roman Catholic Church is certainly NOT an indicator of it's validity and truth. If it weren't for the Conquistadors and others, I'd be willing to bet there would be far less Roman Catholics in Latin & South America than there are today.
I'm not saying the Roman Catholic Church is violent, but it, like most other religions, has had a violent past that cannot be ignored. So just because our Church suffered greatly under the Turks and thus, there are few left in Asia, that does NOT mean that our Church is untrue and erring. If you want to use that argument, then it's completely fair to bring up the forced conversions to the Roman Catholic Church in Latin America and South America, because this is exactly what the Turks were doing to the Orthodox.

NOTE: I only bring this up, because of Alonso's previous post (in this thread) in Spanish argues against Orthodoxy based on the fact that Islam took over Asia.

Alonso, from what I was able to understand from your post (the long one in spanish), you appear to be trying to convince Christianus that the Roman Catholic Church is the real Church he should be in, and not the Orthodox Church. I'm sorry, but I cannot stand for this, especially on a forum that is dedicated to Orthodoxy. I'm sorry if I'm breaking any forum rules by this post, but I just cannot let him publically try to sway someone away from thinking about Orthodoxy on an Orthodox forum.
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« Reply #138 on: February 03, 2010, 02:52:59 PM »

Nowadays, Melki is used to describe "Byzantine Rite Catholics" who are descendents of Orthodox who broke with the Patriarchate of Antioch to seek the protection from Rome during the rather bad latter days of the Ottomans.  They are different from Lateens who practice the Western Rite and Maronites who were a completely different sect that was absorbed around the same time and are found primarily in Lebanon.

Prior to the schism, Melki was used to describe Byzantines who remained loyal to the Chalcedonian Churches (who had Imperial Roman patronage) as opposed to the Non-Chalcedonian Churches (who formed dual Patriarchates in Antioch, Jerusalem and [depending on how you look at it] Alexandria.  For some reason, when the Melkite Schism occured, the Orthodox kept the Roum and the Roman Catholics got the Melki, sort of like when a divorce occurs and the husband gets the sewing machine and the wife gets the chain saw.

But weren't the Melki thoroughly latinized until the renovations in the eastern rites following Vatican II?

That all depends upon who you ask.  Wink

Frankly, it matters little.  What's importann is understanding how people look at themselves now.

For example, if you are a priest and someone of Middle Eastern origin gets into communion line and you are not sure if he is Orthodox or not (based on our understanding that "Orthodox" means "Church-of-Seven-Ecumenical-Councils-and-Member-of-the-Constantinople-Communion"), you should not ask him, "Are you Orthodox?"  After all, he can honestly answer 'yes' as far as his understanding of what the word means while not being in communion with your church.

Asking "Who is your bishop?" isn't helpful either unless you are familiar with which bishop is where in the Old Countries, which is hard enough to track here.

Rather, you would be better off asking, "Are you Roum?" (which is pronounced like 'room').  Then you will find out for sure.

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« Reply #139 on: February 03, 2010, 03:09:05 PM »


 but we are still all one Church in faith and in administration.

Can you explain this unity?
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« Reply #140 on: February 03, 2010, 03:29:46 PM »

Well, we all share the same beliefs, handed down to us by the Apostles, and our administrative unity comes through being in communion with one another...

In the case of the Eastern Orthodox Church:

Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople
Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Orthodox Church of Antioch
Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
Orthodox Church of Russia
Orthodox Church of Serbia
Orthodox Church of Romania
Orthodox Church of Bulgaria
Orthodox Church of Georgia
Orthodox Church of Cyprus
Orthodox Church of Greece
Orthodox Church of Poland
Orthodox Church of Albania
Orthodox Church of the Czech lands and Slovakia
Orthodox Church in America

All churches are autocephalous (with the OCA being questioned by some), that is self-governing. Each has defined boundaries, each is governed by a Council of Bishops/Synod with it's Primate. That Primate holds the titles of either: Patriarch, Metropolitan or Archbishop.
However, the sole head of the entire Church is Christ himself.

The churches are in full communion with one another, reflecting a unity of faith and governance. We aren't governed by a single Bishop, though the "first among equals" is the Patriarch of Constantinople (currently His Grace, Patriarch Bartholomew) holds special position, he is not able to make a decision that supercedes or interferes in other churches. (unless the canons state that during a dispute, he must intervene)
This, as it is known, was the original position of the Latin Pope (Patriarch of Rome), however, in the 11th, 12th and 13th Centuries, the Latin Popes began to skew their position more and more and misunderstood their position in the Church. This was partially due to the barbarians and the "Holy" "Roman" "Empire", as well as other factors.

Decisions on important doctrine are decided by councils, which are held with Primates, Bishops, Clergy, etc... in attendance. Thus the decisions made at the Councils are universal across the church. Some Ecumenical Councils saw some churches missing during the discussions, but the decisions were just as universal and true for the whole Church. The wasn't one council where a Bishops declared that his decision was the law, with the other Bishops submitting to him. At all councils, the churches agreed together and the "first among equals" presided, but did NOT dictate nor decide for all of them.

The Orthodox Church is fully united in faith, doctrine, canons, law, administration etc...

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I apologize in advance if any of this is incorrect. This is from what I remember from what I've been taught, as well as what I've read in various literature such as "The Orthodox Church" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
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« Reply #141 on: February 03, 2010, 03:39:58 PM »

A reminder, for those who "forget" what the purpose of the Convert Issues Forum is:

Beloved in the Lord,

The purpose of the Convert issues forum is to provide a a place on the OC.Net where inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination. Many of those posting in this area are ignorant of Orthodox teachings and are using this forum to understand what are the basic teachings and practices of the Orthodox churches. Due to the simplicity of many of their requests and responses, direct and simple answers with sources if possible are most helpful.

If the moderators find that the discusions become faith or jurisdiction debates, the topic will be split and sent the appropriate OC.Net forum to continue the discussion or debate. As a poster,You may also ask that a topic be split so that a private discussion can be established to go into detail about the issues that you feel adamant about and wish to debate or discuss. The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or arguement. 

Thank you for your following these guidelines to the edification and spiritual growth of the forum inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted.

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« Reply #142 on: February 03, 2010, 04:48:10 PM »

A reminder, for those who "forget" what the purpose of the Convert Issues Forum is:

Beloved in the Lord,

The purpose of the Convert issues forum is to provide a a place on the OC.Net where inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination. Many of those posting in this area are ignorant of Orthodox teachings and are using this forum to understand what are the basic teachings and practices of the Orthodox churches. Due to the simplicity of many of their requests and responses, direct and simple answers with sources if possible are most helpful.

If the moderators find that the discusions become faith or jurisdiction debates, the topic will be split and sent the appropriate OC.Net forum to continue the discussion or debate. As a poster,You may also ask that a topic be split so that a private discussion can be established to go into detail about the issues that you feel adamant about and wish to debate or discuss. The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or arguement. 

Thank you for your following these guidelines to the edification and spiritual growth of the forum inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted.

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« Reply #143 on: February 04, 2010, 02:32:43 AM »

No habla espanol Wink
You have some Spanish saints in the orthodox church, 3 from Seville, God how I love that city,
Saint Isidore of Seville, Fulgetius, and Florentius I think.
And it was the Idea of Hosius of Córdoba to start the first ecumenical council.
http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/oespain.htm

He had considerable influence over St. Constantine, indeed it was the idea of St. Hosius to call the First Oecumenical Council at Nicea just outside Constantinople in 325, which Council he presided. Not as is sometimes stated, he was firm in his support of St. Athanasius and his opposition to Arianism and for this was imprisoned at the end of his life. He reposed in c. 359 after an extraordinary episcopate of over sixty years and is commemorated in eastern calendars as a confessor on 27 August.

yeah so you have Spanish saints in the orthodox church, Santos españoles, Sancti hispani, which is strange to me, because Spain isn't orthodox anymore, yet it produced alot of saints,according to this list.
I wish that there would be a Latin speaking orthodox church again.
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« Reply #144 on: February 04, 2010, 07:29:06 AM »

Um... ok, thanks.  Were you under the impression that I have some kind of grudge against Spanish-speaking peoples or something?  Smiley
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« Reply #145 on: February 08, 2010, 11:42:17 AM »

Um... ok, thanks.  Were you under the impression that I have some kind of grudge against Spanish-speaking peoples or something?  Smiley
I don't know, I thought that the east hated Romans like Spaniards, Italians, and French people, every now and then, I hear: those latins, those latins said by the orthodox.
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« Reply #146 on: February 08, 2010, 11:47:02 AM »

Um... ok, thanks.  Were you under the impression that I have some kind of grudge against Spanish-speaking peoples or something?  Smiley
I don't know, I thought that the east hated Romans like Spaniards, Italians, and French people, every now and then, I hear: those latins, those latins, or those romans said by the orthodox.
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« Reply #147 on: February 08, 2010, 06:03:29 PM »

I'm a recent convert to Orthodoxy from a Pentecostal church, and believe me, Orthodoxy is a whole EXPERIENCE which takes place within your spirit, and in your thoughts the moment you engage with it...and more so when you are away from it.  Cheesy

I am still learning thing everyday about myself, the Orthodox Church and how I can become more Christ-like.

I am no longer content with just attending church on a Sunday to be hyped-up by the pastors zeal and infectious rhetoric. I don't want to belong to that annoying sense of safety and comfort I used to love.



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