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Author Topic: A Discussion on Fornication (Link to my webcast)  (Read 7919 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2010, 08:26:05 AM »

Why don't these ever get emphasized when this passage is quoted? Why is this passage only ever used in discussions about sexual immorality?

They do, don't they? I know at least that I have taught on ALL of them at one time or another. It just so happens that in this case the topic under consideration is fornication and/or sexual sin. I bolded the appropriate terms in the reference fitting to the topic of the thread and the comments to which I was in direct reference. Therefore I do not understand your finickiness. What gives???
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« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2010, 10:45:34 AM »

Why don't these ever get emphasized when this passage is quoted? Why is this passage only ever used in discussions about sexual immorality?

They do, don't they? I know at least that I have taught on ALL of them at one time or another. It just so happens that in this case the topic under consideration is fornication and/or sexual sin. I bolded the appropriate terms in the reference fitting to the topic of the thread and the comments to which I was in direct reference. Therefore I do not understand your finickiness. What gives???

I wouldn't say that angel "Sex as usual" on this forum almost always starts out being about, or devolves into, an argument about homosexuality, abortion, or contraception.
What it devolves into is immaterial. The focus on it is what concerns me. Look at Cleopas' quote from I Corinthians above and see which words are in bold. Now let me quote the same thing (which is a bad translation btw) and place the other offenses it lists in bold:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Why don't these ever get emphasized when this passage is quoted? Why is this passage only ever used in discussions about sexual immorality? The Author certainly does not only mention sexual immorality, in fact, there are five references to sins which are not sexual immorality. The focus on sex is more about our own obsessions than about Theology. The Fathers of the Orthodox Church say that if we do not fornicate but we withhold alms from the poor because of greed, we will be judged more harshly than a fornicator because a fornicator gave in to a powerful passion while we gave in to mere money. So why aren't their more threads about avarice on this forum than there are about sex?  We treat sexual immorality as though it is the worst sin, or somehow more prevalent in our time, even though the society in which the Churches were that St. Paul was writing to had normalized orgies, prostitution, and fornication. In fact, Corinth being a port city was among the worst, so much so that even it's name came to be a synonym for sexual immorality- 'to "Corinthize" meant "to be debauched" in Greek. And yet St. Paul does not focus on sexual immorality alone when writing to them. We however, focus on this to the exclusion of the other forms of immorality he mentions. This is what I mean when I say about this thread "People just want to talk about sex as usual I guess."  Discussions about sexual immorality on a Christian forum is like shooting fish in a barrel. Its a soft target and much easier than dealing with the worse sins of our society and even among members of our Churches.

I agree with Cleopas on this one Grin

Why the emphasis on the ones he boldfaced?  Because these are the ones that society at present thinks are not only not sinful, but should be promoted.  If you steal, you can go to jail.  If you extort, if you are not in Chicago, you can got to jail too. Even celebraties can't show up drunk at award ceremonies and not get judged. But the boldfaced, heh, that is celebrated on the tube every day.

As for idolaters, we speak of them a lot: look at all the talk about us forcing our religion on others.  As for coveting, unless you preach the Gospel of Health and Wealth, that gets talked a lot about too.
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« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2010, 12:18:06 PM »

Why don't these ever get emphasized when this passage is quoted? Why is this passage only ever used in discussions about sexual immorality?

Because it's a sexy subject. (Har har)

I would guess because sexuality is something that almost all of us deal with on some level or another. Probably not many of us are drunkards. Even less of us are extortioners. And so forth. But if you think that avarice or whatever else is a prominent problem, then by all means start a thread about it. Not that half the people will know what you're talking about if you use words like "avarice" and "filthy lucre" and such. Wink
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« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2010, 02:18:03 PM »

So why aren't their more threads about avarice on this forum than there are about sex?  We treat sexual immorality as though it is the worst sin, or somehow more prevalent in our time, even though the society in which the Churches were that St. Paul was writing to had normalized orgies, prostitution, and fornication.

Because nobody is disputing the wrongness of avarice in Orthodoxy.  We all understand that the standard is to not be covetous and to give freely, even though we all fail at it miserably.  What we do see pretty frequently is people trying to weasel their way out of traditional sexual morality within the Church, so it has to be defended.
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« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2010, 02:48:04 PM »

But what is avarice in the 21st century?  What is extortion?  What is idolatry?

I think that's one of the points George is getting at, because it's very easy to discuss sexual matters because we still have pretty strong cultural mores on what constitutes "immoral" sexual activity even if some people try to weasel out of it.

But do we ever start to ask ourselves if we engage or abet extortion when enter into a contract with a credit card, which, in and of itself can be seen as a form of avarice as we attempt to live beyond our means?  All this leads to the worship of Almighty Dollar, of course.

Before anyone starts, I am not saying that discussions on sexual immorality are overdone; I am merely supporting ozgeorge in his statement that talking about sex is easy; the other stuff St. Paul mentions is not so easy for us, it appears.
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« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2010, 03:25:17 PM »

And what's to say that the words not bolded in the text don't have any connection to the topic at hand? Isn't sexual immorality a form of idolatry( of self), and can involve theft (of another person's spouse, etc.), covetousness (of that which is not ours to have), too much alcohol (which can lead to loose behaviour), etc.?
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« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2010, 04:08:09 PM »

So why aren't their more threads about avarice on this forum than there are about sex?  We treat sexual immorality as though it is the worst sin, or somehow more prevalent in our time, even though the society in which the Churches were that St. Paul was writing to had normalized orgies, prostitution, and fornication.

Because nobody is disputing the wrongness of avarice in Orthodoxy.  We all understand that the standard is to not be covetous and to give freely, even though we all fail at it miserably.  What we do see pretty frequently is people trying to weasel their way out of traditional sexual morality within the Church, so it has to be defended.

So...that one's to hard, so you basically just ignore it? Be a sinner and sin boldly, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, eh? Not that I have any personal objections to that approach...but what's the big deal of extending that philosophy to sexual morality. I mean, being sexually chase is certainly no more fun than being poor?
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« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2010, 04:23:15 PM »

"Effeminate" isn't the best translation that could be made.  Undecided
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« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2010, 04:35:27 PM »

So why aren't their more threads about avarice on this forum than there are about sex?  We treat sexual immorality as though it is the worst sin, or somehow more prevalent in our time, even though the society in which the Churches were that St. Paul was writing to had normalized orgies, prostitution, and fornication.

Because nobody is disputing the wrongness of avarice in Orthodoxy.  We all understand that the standard is to not be covetous and to give freely, even though we all fail at it miserably.  What we do see pretty frequently is people trying to weasel their way out of traditional sexual morality within the Church, so it has to be defended.

So...that one's to hard, so you basically just ignore it? Be a sinner and sin boldly, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, eh? Not that I have any personal objections to that approach...but what's the big deal of extending that philosophy to sexual morality. I mean, being sexually chase is certainly no more fun than being poor?

I'm not sure you can say that with certainty.  I know some sex addicts who would give anything to remain chaste.  Poor Tiger Woods is going to have to wrestle with this topic far more than many of us, and I wonder what he would say?
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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2010, 05:04:45 PM »

So why aren't their more threads about avarice on this forum than there are about sex?  We treat sexual immorality as though it is the worst sin, or somehow more prevalent in our time, even though the society in which the Churches were that St. Paul was writing to had normalized orgies, prostitution, and fornication.

Because nobody is disputing the wrongness of avarice in Orthodoxy.  We all understand that the standard is to not be covetous and to give freely, even though we all fail at it miserably.  What we do see pretty frequently is people trying to weasel their way out of traditional sexual morality within the Church, so it has to be defended.

So...that one's to hard, so you basically just ignore it? Be a sinner and sin boldly, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, eh? Not that I have any personal objections to that approach...but what's the big deal of extending that philosophy to sexual morality. I mean, being sexually chase is certainly no more fun than being poor?

I'm not sure you can say that with certainty.  I know some sex addicts who would give anything to remain chaste.  Poor Tiger Woods is going to have to wrestle with this topic far more than many of us, and I wonder what he would say?

Should have got a better prenup?
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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2010, 08:00:27 PM »

So why aren't their more threads about avarice on this forum than there are about sex?  We treat sexual immorality as though it is the worst sin, or somehow more prevalent in our time, even though the society in which the Churches were that St. Paul was writing to had normalized orgies, prostitution, and fornication.

Because nobody is disputing the wrongness of avarice in Orthodoxy.  We all understand that the standard is to not be covetous and to give freely, even though we all fail at it miserably.  What we do see pretty frequently is people trying to weasel their way out of traditional sexual morality within the Church, so it has to be defended.

So...that one's to hard, so you basically just ignore it? Be a sinner and sin boldly, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, eh? Not that I have any personal objections to that approach...but what's the big deal of extending that philosophy to sexual morality. I mean, being sexually chase is certainly no more fun than being poor?
Actually, I have enjoyed living a chaste Christian is much more enjoyable than living a premiscuos one.
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« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2010, 08:01:51 PM »

"Effeminate" isn't the best translation that could be made.  Undecided
Are you talking about the passages in the scriptures that referr to homosexuality? The best translation is "male bedder" or a man who sleeps with men (sexually of course).
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« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2010, 08:27:07 PM »

"Effeminate" isn't the best translation that could be made.  Undecided
Are you talking about the passages in the scriptures that referr to homosexuality? The best translation is "male bedder" or a man who sleeps with men (sexually of course).

No, that's Leviticus 18.
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« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2010, 01:41:27 AM »

Cleopas I would really like to hear about what your podcast is actually about if you could graciously give a synopsis or dot points. Reason being my internet has been shaped (yes in australia we are a little behind you guys with internet infrastructure).
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« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2010, 09:49:44 AM »

Quote
Actually, I have enjoyed living a chaste Christian is much more enjoyable than living a premiscuos one

I can't say that I'd agree. But then, there are a lot of variables that play into that, and my ideas about something being "enjoyable" and "promiscuous" might be different than yours.
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« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2010, 10:05:43 AM »

So why aren't their more threads about avarice on this forum than there are about sex?  We treat sexual immorality as though it is the worst sin, or somehow more prevalent in our time, even though the society in which the Churches were that St. Paul was writing to had normalized orgies, prostitution, and fornication.

Because nobody is disputing the wrongness of avarice in Orthodoxy.  We all understand that the standard is to not be covetous and to give freely, even though we all fail at it miserably.  What we do see pretty frequently is people trying to weasel their way out of traditional sexual morality within the Church, so it has to be defended.

So...that one's to hard, so you basically just ignore it? Be a sinner and sin boldly, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, eh? Not that I have any personal objections to that approach...but what's the big deal of extending that philosophy to sexual morality. I mean, being sexually chase is certainly no more fun than being poor?

I'm not sure you can say that with certainty.  I know some sex addicts who would give anything to remain chaste.  Poor Tiger Woods is going to have to wrestle with this topic far more than many of us, and I wonder what he would say?

Should have got a better prenup?
Yeah, I'm sure that's going to clear things up in the eyes of his children.  Not having children, that perhaps is beyond your grasp.
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« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2010, 10:09:04 AM »

After all this discussion, would it be appropriate to let Cleopas tell us where to find his video? At this point, anyone going to it would obviously be 'forewarned' about any content of views that some might find objectionable.
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« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2010, 05:02:26 PM »

"Effeminate" isn't the best translation that could be made.  Undecided
Are you talking about the passages in the scriptures that referr to homosexuality? The best translation is "male bedder" or a man who sleeps with men (sexually of course).

No, that's Leviticus 18.

I was referring to 1 Cor 6.
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« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2010, 01:21:43 AM »

BUMP (a link to the webcast is again in the original post)
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« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2010, 06:43:39 AM »

Because nobody is disputing the wrongness of avarice in Orthodoxy.
Aren't they? I submit that some active posters on this forum see no problem with the sin of avarice. What about the reactions to Bogoliubtsy's post in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25377.0.html
The reaction to this by most posters on the thread were to the effect that the Fathers words against avarice were being "taken out of context". The evidence therefore doesn't support your claim that "nobody is disputing the wrongness of avarice"- at least on this forum.
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« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2010, 07:15:58 AM »

The reaction to this by most posters on the thread were to the effect that the Fathers words against avarice were being "taken out of context". The evidence therefore doesn't support your claim that "nobody is disputing the wrongness of avarice"- at least on this forum.

That's quite a stretch there George, are you doing yoga these days? Some of the quotes went well beyond avarice, and touched upon basic things like simply owning property. It was that kind of statement that I, at least, was speaking to when I wondered about the context.
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« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2010, 07:20:22 AM »

"Effeminate" isn't the best translation that could be made.  Undecided

The word it is translating is "malakoi" which means "soft". The other place it occurs is in the Gospel when Our Lord is talking about the "soft garments" worn by those who live in luxury (Matthew 11:8, Luke 7:25).
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« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2010, 07:23:59 AM »

That's quite a stretch there George, are you doing yoga these days? Some of the quotes went well beyond avarice, and touched upon basic things like simply owning property. It was that kind of statement that I, at least, was speaking to when I wondered about the context.

Isn't avarice based on belief in a "right" to own superfluous property?
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« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2010, 07:45:10 AM »

Isn't avarice based on belief in a "right" to own superfluous property?

What is "superfluous property"? According to some of what I read, owning ANYTHING is wrong. That is what I would object to, unless we are talking about a group of monastics that have formed an agreement to share everything, or something like that. Perhaps we do not disagree about the actual definition, I dunno. I'd say that avarice is about being extremely greedy. So, for example, it is not greedy to want a car so that you don't have to take a bus to work, but it would be avarice if you were filled with an obsession to have a dozen expensive cars, and went after that dream regardless of the consequences.
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« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2010, 01:48:53 PM »

That's quite a stretch there George, are you doing yoga these days? Some of the quotes went well beyond avarice, and touched upon basic things like simply owning property. It was that kind of statement that I, at least, was speaking to when I wondered about the context.

Isn't avarice based on belief in a "right" to own superfluous property?

Avarice has be variously defined, so good luck trying to nail down a single, universal definition.  Now, you really could say that about nearly every word in English, but I digress...

The primary issue with Avarice or Greed is not necessarily in the owning of items, but the power the items have over the owner.  If you watch A&E on cable/satellite there is a TV show called 'Hoarders' which is a fascinating look into part of the phenomenon.

Avarice can best be diagnosed when one is asked to share, particularly in a lop-sided manner.  The more unwilling, and perhaps one could say pathologically unable, to share, the one more can be assumed to be in the thrall of Avarice.  A less obvious indicator is when a person is asked to choose between a friend/family member and an object.

A second determining factor in Avarice is how one goes about getting one's possessions.  For example, a man who ruthlessly lies to earn a fortune is in a different category from one who earns through an honest reputation.  This can also be as subtle as the amount of time spent at work and away from family or friends.

There is nothing wrong with owning things, so long as we acknowledge that God is the source of all blessings and that He occasionally requires us to share and to give with wisdom and compassion.  You can collect baseball cards and old cars so long as doing so does not drive you to sin against God or other people.
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« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2010, 04:58:18 PM »

Isn't avarice based on belief in a "right" to own superfluous property?

What is "superfluous property"? According to some of what I read, owning ANYTHING is wrong. That is what I would object to, unless we are talking about a group of monastics that have formed an agreement to share everything, or something like that. Perhaps we do not disagree about the actual definition, I dunno.

Do I have the "right" to luxury and withhold helping someone at my Church who lacks food to feed their family? If I give them alms, am I doing something supererogatory or am I merely doing my duty as a Christian?

I'd say that avarice is about being extremely greedy. So, for example, it is not greedy to want a car so that you don't have to take a bus to work, but it would be avarice if you were filled with an obsession to have a dozen expensive cars, and went after that dream regardless of the consequences.
It depends on the context. If I own nothing but a blanket and refuse to share it with my neighbour during a blizzard, I'd say that is also avarice. Avarice, as far as I can see is about believing that sharing our excess with others is supererogatory and not a duty. Its amassing property for the sake of amassing property, or as St. James puts it "heaping up treasure in the last days."
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« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2010, 07:34:19 PM »

"Effeminate" isn't the best translation that could be made.  Undecided

The word it is translating is "malakoi" which means "soft". The other place it occurs is in the Gospel when Our Lord is talking about the "soft garments" worn by those who live in luxury (Matthew 11:8, Luke 7:25).

Yes. This is what I was referring to.
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Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
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Posts: 30,214


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2010, 12:22:23 AM »

ozgeorge,

At this point, it is becoming a matter of sorting between my own beliefs, and Orthodox Christian beliefs, because they are two seperate things. And frankly, I'm not sure that I care to dive into the Orthodox position too deeply right now. Wink So, I guess I'd like to start making on-topic posts again!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 12:23:22 AM by Asteriktos » Logged
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