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Author Topic: Rafa999's Charges Against St. Augustine of Hippo  (Read 6429 times) Average Rating: 0
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Rafa999
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« on: January 15, 2010, 12:00:30 AM »

Augustine of Hippo taught the Manichean heresy of original sin,the COE who dealt with Manes and his crew all the time knew the founder of that heresy influenced subtly Augustine's work, he introduced many false ideas into the church. Oh and he died in doubt so why should this guy be a saint? Ambrose was wrong on many things so I beg to differ. I also have nothing to say to the claim that my church is not apostolic when we have the world's oldest Christian liturgy and have a completely independent tradition which is assuredly apostolic (The Indian Christians) having us appoint their Bishops. And of course the original New Testament in the tongue of Jesus before the "m-word people" tampered with certain verses.

Quote
Oh I know. Its just amazing to me to see in print that their church excommunicated St. Augustine. To me its like some one excommunicating St. John of Damascus or St. Ignaitus of Antioch.

Ignatius of Antioch was a martyr, John of Damascus a holy man as well. What did Augustine do except die in doubt, introduce heresies, encourage death of the Pelagians by asking for the emperor to kill people, plus his sinful life before his alleged conversion?


The COE is not Pelagian btw.
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2010, 12:03:45 AM »

I was going to post this, then decided not to. But I think I will now, after having seen the post by Rafa. Thanks for the motivation, bro Wink

There are two kinds of Eastern Orthodox in the world:

1. Those who know that Augustine is a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church, whatever perceived errors Augustine might have made
2. Those who are misinformed and think that Augustine isn't a saint in the Orthodox Church
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2010, 01:43:43 AM »

I was going to post this, then decided not to. But I think I will now, after having seen the post by Rafa. Thanks for the motivation, bro Wink

There are two kinds of Eastern Orthodox in the world:

1. Those who know that Augustine is a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church, whatever perceived errors Augustine might have made
2. Those who are misinformed and think that Augustine isn't a saint in the Orthodox Church

What is the source that verifies Augustine of Hippo as a saint? I'm wondering because it may be a part not shared with the OOC.
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2010, 01:57:11 AM »

What is the source that verifies Augustine of Hippo as a saint? I'm wondering because it may be a part not shared with the OOC.

I suppose there are a number of types of evidence, though nothing is really a magic bullet proving it. Fwiw, I've made posts about this in the past which go over some of the evidence, such as this one. Maybe the easiest--if not the deepest--answer is simply that Saint (or Blessed) Augustine is on Orthodox calendars, and is included in collections of the lives of saints (e.g. the Prologue From Ochrid).
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2010, 02:34:52 AM »

Augustine of Hippo taught the Manichean heresy of original sin,the COE who dealt with Manes and his crew all the time knew the founder of that heresy influenced subtly Augustine's work, he introduced many false ideas into the church. Oh and he died in doubt so why should this guy be a saint? Ambrose was wrong on many things so I beg to differ. I also have nothing to say to the claim that my church is not apostolic when we have the world's oldest Christian liturgy and have a completely independent tradition which is assuredly apostolic (The Indian Christians) having us appoint their Bishops. And of course the original New Testament in the tongue of Jesus before the "m-word people" tampered with certain verses.

Quote
Oh I know. Its just amazing to me to see in print that their church excommunicated St. Augustine. To me its like some one excommunicating St. John of Damascus or St. Ignaitus of Antioch.

Ignatius of Antioch was a martyr, John of Damascus a holy man as well. What did Augustine do except die in doubt, introduce heresies, encourage death of the Pelagians by asking for the emperor to kill people, plus his sinful life before his alleged conversion?


The COE is not Pelagian btw.
I've seen plenty of posts and heard plenty of EO say that they doubt St. Augustine's worthiness of veneration because of his borderline-heretical teachings, but I've never heard anyone doubt the genuineness of his conversion or accuse him of encouraging the use of deadly force against the Pelagians.  Since these charges are so new to me, can you substantiate them with reference to outside documents?
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2010, 02:39:47 AM »

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"Why . . . should not the Church use force in compelling her lost sons to return, if the lost sons compelled others to their destruction?" (The Correction of the Donatists, 22-24)

It was actually against the donatists. So he still advocated force against others who diverged from his views. It is also no mystery that Augustine died believing in the pagan apologetics that Rome fell because of Christianity.
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2010, 02:46:31 AM »

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"Why . . . should not the Church use force in compelling her lost sons to return, if the lost sons compelled others to their destruction?" (The Correction of the Donatists, 22-24)

It was actually against the donatists. So he still advocated force against others who diverged from his views. It is also no mystery that Augustine died believing in the pagan apologetics that Rome fell because of Christianity.
Yes, I have read that St. Augustine advocated the use of force against the Donatists.  But can you substantiate this second claim of yours--that he died believing in the pagan apologetics that Rome fell because of Christianity?
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2010, 02:46:40 AM »

It is also no mystery that Augustine died believing in the pagan apologetics that Rome fell because of Christianity.

Ah, but Rome was born-again because of Christianity for a millennium.
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« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2010, 02:56:33 AM »

It is also no mystery that Augustine died believing in the pagan apologetics that Rome fell because of Christianity.

Ah, but Rome was born-again because of Christianity for a millennium.

And perhaps born-again for another 500 years after thatWink
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2010, 11:35:55 AM »

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"Why . . . should not the Church use force in compelling her lost sons to return, if the lost sons compelled others to their destruction?" (The Correction of the Donatists, 22-24)

It was actually against the donatists. So he still advocated force against others who diverged from his views. It is also no mystery that Augustine died believing in the pagan apologetics that Rome fell because of Christianity.
That's not my reading of The City of God.
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« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2010, 11:45:19 AM »

What is the source that verifies Augustine of Hippo as a saint? I'm wondering because it may be a part not shared with the OOC.

I don't think you're right about the OO Church not accepting Augustine as a saint.

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/augustine.html


In fact from my limited experience Copts in particular are more likely to say he's a saint than many EO are.

I hope one of our OO friends can reply with their impression.



Fixed quote tags  - PtA
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« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2010, 02:08:34 PM »

It is also no mystery that Augustine died believing in the pagan apologetics that Rome fell because of Christianity.
That's not my reading of The City of God.

Yeah, seriously.  Have you ever read The City of God, Rafa?
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« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2010, 06:36:03 PM »

What is the source that verifies Augustine of Hippo as a saint? I'm wondering because it may be a part not shared with the OOC.

I don't think you're right about the OO Church not accepting Augustine as a saint.

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/augustine.html


In fact from my limited experience Copts in particular are more likely to say he's a saint than many EO are.

I hope one of our OO friends can reply with their impression.



Fixed quote tags  - PtA

I didn't say the OO didn't accept him as a saint.

I was wondering if the EO source for proving Augustine a saint is not shared by the OO.
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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2010, 12:36:41 AM »

Quote
"Why . . . should not the Church use force in compelling her lost sons to return, if the lost sons compelled others to their destruction?" (The Correction of the Donatists, 22-24)

It was actually against the donatists. So he still advocated force against others who diverged from his views. It is also no mystery that Augustine died believing in the pagan apologetics that Rome fell because of Christianity.
Yes, I have read that St. Augustine advocated the use of force against the Donatists.  But can you substantiate this second claim of yours--that he died believing in the pagan apologetics that Rome fell because of Christianity?
Still waiting for your answer, Rafa.
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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2010, 01:16:37 AM »

He wrote City of God because he was so worried about the pagans, because he believed in all that garbage people like Celsus were writing. Its like...an American writing a book to himself Christianity is right because he's in doubt over his faith when the twin towers fell. Worse, considering Islam as another faith because he's in doubt!
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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2010, 01:39:32 AM »

He wrote City of God because he was so worried about the pagans, because he believed in all that garbage people like Celsus were writing. Its like...an American writing a book to himself Christianity is right because he's in doubt over his faith when the twin towers fell. Worse, considering Islam as another faith because he's in doubt!
From where do you draw this judgment of St. Augustine's motives for writing a book?
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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2010, 01:46:21 AM »

Common knowledge that the 410 sack of Rome would be the equivalent of the destruction of London with nuclear weapons to Augustine and that this necessitated a view of a City which was permanent and heavenly unlike the supposedly eternal cities like Rome, Babylon, Constantinople, or New York City. His writing the book proves he was disturbed by the idea of Rome falling under Christianity, which shows doubt in his faith. End of story.
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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2010, 01:47:42 AM »

His writing the book proves he was disturbed by the idea of Rome falling under Christianity, which shows doubt in his faith. End of story.

Thanks Freud.
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« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2010, 01:48:57 AM »

No problem  Grin
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« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2010, 01:51:01 AM »

Common knowledge that the 410 sack of Rome would be the equivalent of the destruction of London with nuclear weapons to Augustine and that this necessitated a view of a City which was permanent and heavenly unlike the supposedly eternal cities like Rome, Babylon, Constantinople, or New York City.
Common knowledge to whom?  Besides, you do know what conjecture is?

His writing the book proves he was disturbed by the idea of Rome falling under Christianity, which shows doubt in his faith. End of story.
His writing the book proves nothing.  Now, what authoritative outside sources can you cite to back up your judgment of his motives for writing this book?

End of story.
You would like to think so.  However, your saying so don't make it so.
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2010, 02:10:09 AM »

Common knowledge that the 410 sack of Rome would be the equivalent of the destruction of London with nuclear weapons to Augustine and that this necessitated a view of a City which was permanent and heavenly unlike the supposedly eternal cities like Rome, Babylon, Constantinople, or New York City. His writing the book proves he was disturbed by the idea of Rome falling under Christianity, which shows doubt in his faith. End of story.

 Huh
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2010, 02:34:45 AM »

Quote
Book 16, Chapter 8. - Whether Certain Monstrous Races of Men are Derived from the Stock of Adam or Noahs Sons.

It is also asked whether we are to believe that certain monstrous races of men, spoken of in secular history, have sprung from Noahs sons, or rather, I should say, from that one man from whom they themselves were descended. For it is reported that some have one eye in the middle of the forehead; some, feet turned backwards from the heel; some, a double sex, the right breast like a man, the left like a woman, and that they alternately beget and bring forth: others are said to have no mouth, and to breathe only through the nostrils; others are but a cubit high, and are therefore called by the Greeks "Pigmies:" they say that in some places the women conceive in their fifth year, and do not live beyond their eighth. So, too, they tell of a race who have two feet but only one leg, and are of marvellous swiftness, though they do not bend the knee: they are called Skiopodes, because in the hot weather they lie down on their backs and shade themselves with their feet. Others are said to have no head, and their eyes in their shoulders; and other human or quasi-human races are depicted in mosaic in the harbor esplanade of Carthage, on the faith of histories of rarities.

I'm supposed to take this guy seriously, that someone this gullible never doubted his faith?  Huh 
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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2010, 02:45:21 AM »

Quote
Book 16, Chapter 8. - Whether Certain Monstrous Races of Men are Derived from the Stock of Adam or Noahs Sons.

It is also asked whether we are to believe that certain monstrous races of men, spoken of in secular history, have sprung from Noahs sons, or rather, I should say, from that one man from whom they themselves were descended. For it is reported that some have one eye in the middle of the forehead; some, feet turned backwards from the heel; some, a double sex, the right breast like a man, the left like a woman, and that they alternately beget and bring forth: others are said to have no mouth, and to breathe only through the nostrils; others are but a cubit high, and are therefore called by the Greeks "Pigmies:" they say that in some places the women conceive in their fifth year, and do not live beyond their eighth. So, too, they tell of a race who have two feet but only one leg, and are of marvellous swiftness, though they do not bend the knee: they are called Skiopodes, because in the hot weather they lie down on their backs and shade themselves with their feet. Others are said to have no head, and their eyes in their shoulders; and other human or quasi-human races are depicted in mosaic in the harbor esplanade of Carthage, on the faith of histories of rarities.

I'm supposed to take this guy seriously, that someone this gullible never doubted his faith?  Huh  
Where did you pick this up?  A link or a bibliographical reference will do.

Additionally, I never claimed that St. Augustine never doubted his faith.  Rather, I asked you to prove your claims that he did.  The text above, if it is indeed that of St. Augustine of Hippo, doesn't prove anything.
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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2010, 02:46:44 AM »

I'm supposed to take this guy seriously, that someone this gullible never doubted his faith?  Huh 

So I take it that you don't buy that whole story about a woman made from a rib being tricked by a talking snake into eating from a magical tree?
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2010, 02:49:42 AM »

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Book 16, Chapter 8. - Whether Certain Monstrous Races of Men are Derived from the Stock of Adam or Noahs Sons.

It is also asked whether we are to believe that certain monstrous races of men, spoken of in secular history, have sprung from Noahs sons, or rather, I should say, from that one man from whom they themselves were descended. For it is reported that some have one eye in the middle of the forehead; some, feet turned backwards from the heel; some, a double sex, the right breast like a man, the left like a woman, and that they alternately beget and bring forth: others are said to have no mouth, and to breathe only through the nostrils; others are but a cubit high, and are therefore called by the Greeks "Pigmies:" they say that in some places the women conceive in their fifth year, and do not live beyond their eighth. So, too, they tell of a race who have two feet but only one leg, and are of marvellous swiftness, though they do not bend the knee: they are called Skiopodes, because in the hot weather they lie down on their backs and shade themselves with their feet. Others are said to have no head, and their eyes in their shoulders; and other human or quasi-human races are depicted in mosaic in the harbor esplanade of Carthage, on the faith of histories of rarities.

I'm supposed to take this guy seriously, that someone this gullible never doubted his faith?  Huh  
Where did you pick this up?  A link or a bibliographical reference will do.

Additionally, I never claimed that St. Augustine never doubted his faith.  Rather, I asked you to prove your claims that he did.  The text above, if it is indeed that of St. Augustine of Hippo, doesn't prove anything.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120116.htm

I was desperately trying to find the work where he supposedly said he saw a satyr and a headless man as well (that last one might be just a medieval fable though).
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2010, 02:50:58 AM »

So I take it that you don't buy that whole story about a woman made from a rib being tricked by a talking snake into eating from a magical tree?

Watch the use of "magic", as it's a rhetorical pejorative.

Perhaps "mystical" or "holy" will do!  Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2010, 02:53:27 AM »

Since Satyrs, headless men, and so forth donot exist, and presuming Augustine said they existed the conclusion is he lied and who is a liar except he who denies the Christ ? (I John 2:22). Therefore he died in doubt if he was this gullible to believe these fables.
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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2010, 02:56:23 AM »

Since Satyrs, headless men, and so forth donot exist, and presuming Augustine said they existed the conclusion is he lied and who is a liar except he who denies the Christ ? (I John 2:22). Therefore he died in doubt if he was this gullible to believe these fables.
Yes, you presume a lot, but you haven't proven anything.  You haven't even established that gullibility necessarily leads one to doubt.
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2010, 02:57:03 AM »

(I presume) He lied and who is a liar except one who doubts the Christ?
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2010, 02:58:39 AM »

Since Satyrs, headless men, and so forth donot exist, and presuming Augustine said they existed the conclusion is he lied and who is a liar except he who denies the Christ ? (I John 2:22). Therefore he died in doubt if he was this gullible to believe these fables.

Watch out for all of the science!
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« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2010, 02:58:48 AM »

(I presume) He lied and who is a liar except one whom doubts the Christ?
But I asked for proof from outside sources, not presumptions from Rafa999.
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« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2010, 03:03:18 AM »

City of God.Book 16, Chapter 8. - Whether Certain Monstrous Races of Men are Derived from the Stock of Adam or Noahs Sons.


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120116.htm

what more "proof". I'm not psychic who can read his mind to know if he REALLY believed in this stuff, thats forbidden by the New Testament (look at Haiti).
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« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2010, 03:41:41 AM »

Rafa, what is a reader who knows little about St. Augustine supposed to look for in the above lengthy passage you cited?   Huh
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« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2010, 04:30:20 AM »

City of God.Book 16, Chapter 8. - Whether Certain Monstrous Races of Men are Derived from the Stock of Adam or Noahs Sons.


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120116.htm

what more "proof". I'm not psychic who can read his mind to know if he REALLY believed in this stuff, thats forbidden by the New Testament (look at Haiti).
So, if you REALLY don't know whether St. Augustine REALLY believed this stuff, do you REALLY intend to convince me that he REALLY did? Huh  That's REALLY silly. laugh
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« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2010, 08:41:39 AM »

Common knowledge that the 410 sack of Rome would be the equivalent of the destruction of London with nuclear weapons to Augustine and that this necessitated a view of a City which was permanent and heavenly unlike the supposedly eternal cities like Rome, Babylon, Constantinople, or New York City. His writing the book proves he was disturbed by the idea of Rome falling under Christianity, which shows doubt in his faith. End of story.

If you have never doubted your faith for an instant when you come to face pain and sufferings, then you're not a Christian. Even Jesus, suffering in His flesh, cried for his friend Lazarus when he was dead, and blood ran on his face due to the pain of his imminent death while He was asking God to change His plans. All humans are weak in their humanity, and Augustine was as weak as anybody else. Look at the thief on Christ's side on Golgotha: he had a life of crimes, but Christ, our God, forgave him, promising Heaven for the rest of his soul. Couldn't Augustine just have understood his weaknesses and obtained God's favour while in his deathbed? The authority of God and the Church can't be discussed: Augustine of Hippo is in the calendar of all Churches with an apostolic succession: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and even Anglo-Catholics commemorate him as a saint in their calendars - what better testimony do you need? Or do you totally reject the authority of the Church?

In Christ,   Alex

PS: these are strange days on the board... everybody attacking saints for disputes on their holiness...
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« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2010, 10:44:27 AM »

Plenty of Orthodox Fathers call Augustine a saint and quote him approvingly. I just read a bit where St. Nicodemos does this.
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« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2010, 01:32:47 PM »

Rafa, apart from not regarding him as a Saint (which is an insult to the Church's decisions, I believe), do you also utterly condemn him to the deepest floors of Hades or it is just me?
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« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2010, 02:51:55 PM »

Common knowledge that the 410 sack of Rome would be the equivalent of the destruction of London with nuclear weapons to Augustine and that this necessitated a view of a City which was permanent and heavenly unlike the supposedly eternal cities like Rome, Babylon, Constantinople, or New York City. His writing the book proves he was disturbed by the idea of Rome falling under Christianity, which shows doubt in his faith. End of story.

If you have never doubted your faith for an instant when you come to face pain and sufferings, then you're not a Christian. Even Jesus, suffering in His flesh, cried for his friend Lazarus when he was dead, and blood ran on his face due to the pain of his imminent death while He was asking God to change His plans. All humans are weak in their humanity, and Augustine was as weak as anybody else. Look at the thief on Christ's side on Golgotha: he had a life of crimes, but Christ, our God, forgave him, promising Heaven for the rest of his soul. Couldn't Augustine just have understood his weaknesses and obtained God's favour while in his deathbed? The authority of God and the Church can't be discussed: Augustine of Hippo is in the calendar of all Churches with an apostolic succession: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and even Anglo-Catholics commemorate him as a saint in their calendars - what better testimony do you need? Or do you totally reject the authority of the Church?
LOL. Being CoE, I think he has to say yes.
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« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2010, 03:04:36 PM »

The authority of God and the Church can't be discussed: Augustine of Hippo is in the calendar of all Churches with an apostolic succession: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and even Anglo-Catholics commemorate him as a saint in their calendars - what better testimony do you need? Or do you totally reject the authority of the Church?

I was not aware that he is actually an official Saint in the Orthodox Church. I've met people who think so but I've also met some to think he is a heretic for his teachings. I always thought he was to be referred to as Blessed Augustine rather than Saint.
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« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2010, 03:26:35 PM »

The authority of God and the Church can't be discussed: Augustine of Hippo is in the calendar of all Churches with an apostolic succession: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and even Anglo-Catholics commemorate him as a saint in their calendars - what better testimony do you need? Or do you totally reject the authority of the Church?

I was not aware that he is actually an official Saint in the Orthodox Church. I've met people who think so but I've also met some to think he is a heretic for his teachings. I always thought he was to be referred to as Blessed Augustine rather than Saint.

I'm pretty sure the blessed/saint distinction is a false one in Orthodoxy. Generally, Blessed means Saint.
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« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2010, 03:32:16 PM »

The authority of God and the Church can't be discussed: Augustine of Hippo is in the calendar of all Churches with an apostolic succession: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and even Anglo-Catholics commemorate him as a saint in their calendars - what better testimony do you need? Or do you totally reject the authority of the Church?

I was not aware that he is actually an official Saint in the Orthodox Church. I've met people who think so but I've also met some to think he is a heretic for his teachings. I always thought he was to be referred to as Blessed Augustine rather than Saint.

In Orthodoxy, as Andrew rightly said, the classification blessed vs saint doesn't exist. The title "blessed" is associated to other saints. An example is st. Basil the Innocent - where the word for innocent is the same as blessed in Slavic. You surely know him very well: he is the Fool in Christ who was a real thorn in the flesh for tsar Ivan. Even in Catholicism, to tell the truth, associating the word "blessed" to a Christian doesn't mean that he isn't saint... the classification only expresses the extension and importance of such a person. Indeed, both blessed and saints are in heaven LOL No Catholic would ever question the holiness of Blessed John XXIII, Pope of Rome, despite we're still waiting for his canonization.

I think that in this case the most reliable sources, despite all disputes, for the Eastern Orthodox Church are the quotations of Augustine among the Church Fathers in the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils, and the importance of his role in condemning Pelagius and Celestius, whose heresies were condemned both in the Council of Carthage (of an ecumenical value through the Trullan Synod) and the Third Ecumenical Council.
Here's a specific quote from http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo

Quote
The Fifth Ecumenical Council, held in Constantinople in A.D. 553, listed Augustine among other Fathers of the Church, though there is no unqualified endorsement of his theology mentioned (just as there is none for most saints of the Church):

    We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith.[1] (emphasis added)

In the acts of the Sixth Ecumenical Council (not yet translated into English), he is called the "most excellent and blessed Augustine" and is referred to as "the most wise teacher." In the Comnenian Council of Constantinople in 1166 he is referred to as "Ό Αγίος Αυγουστίνος - "Saint Augustine."

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2010, 03:40:29 PM »

If you have never doubted your faith for an instant when you come to face pain and sufferings, then you're not a Christian.

+1

I can't believe Rafa can take St Augustine's presumed lack of faith and extrapolate that to attack his holiness. Insane.
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« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2010, 03:54:06 PM »

plus his sinful life before his alleged conversion?

It is a despicable thing to point out someone's (especially a saint's) sins prior to baptism, unless to contrast it with their holiness after baptism.
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« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2010, 03:56:29 PM »

Common knowledge that the 410 sack of Rome would be the equivalent of the destruction of London with nuclear weapons to Augustine and that this necessitated a view of a City which was permanent and heavenly unlike the supposedly eternal cities like Rome, Babylon, Constantinople, or New York City. His writing the book proves he was disturbed by the idea of Rome falling under Christianity, which shows doubt in his faith. End of story.
Or do you totally reject the authority of the Church?
Actually, Alex, if you read Rafa999's posts, you get the idea that he totally submits to the authority of the Church.  It's just that he believes his church, not ours, to be the Church.
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« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2010, 03:57:55 PM »

The authority of God and the Church can't be discussed: Augustine of Hippo is in the calendar of all Churches with an apostolic succession: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and even Anglo-Catholics commemorate him as a saint in their calendars - what better testimony do you need? Or do you totally reject the authority of the Church?

I was not aware that he is actually an official Saint in the Orthodox Church. I've met people who think so but I've also met some to think he is a heretic for his teachings. I always thought he was to be referred to as Blessed Augustine rather than Saint.
What do you think "Blessed" means if not saint? Wink  We call St. Herman "Blessed Herman of Alaska."
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