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Author Topic: Ecumenism (opinion on news)  (Read 40383 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #495 on: January 27, 2010, 01:34:27 PM »

It's interesting that you insist on stating that we believe that the Papacy is the highest level of the priesthood when it is no such thing. It is the same level as that of a Bishop.

Are all bishops infallible?

Can the bishop of Sao Paolo act without the bishop of Mexico City?  Can either act without the bishop of Rome? Roll Eyes

READ Lumen Gentium:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11171.msg299926.html#msg299926
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20203.msg302575.html#msg302575




Quote
And the idea of Papal authority being derived from Peter goes all the way back to St. Iraneaus of Lyons.
Quote please?
First, the Pope's extraordinary authority does not come from his ordination,
Then he doesn't have it.


Quote
so he is not a higher level of priest. And for Iraneaus of Lyons, we have debated the quote ad nauseam about how all must be in agreement/communion with Rome because of her superior origin, and the orgin it describes is Sts. Peter and Paul. Do we have to go down this road again?
I was not aware that Christ gave the Keys to St. Paul.
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« Reply #496 on: January 27, 2010, 01:40:43 PM »

It's interesting that you insist on stating that we believe that the Papacy is the highest level of the priesthood when it is no such thing. It is the same level as that of a Bishop.

Are all bishops infallible?

Can the bishop of Sao Paolo act without the bishop of Mexico City?  Can either act without the bishop of Rome? Roll Eyes

READ Lumen Gentium:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11171.msg299926.html#msg299926
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20203.msg302575.html#msg302575




Quote
And the idea of Papal authority being derived from Peter goes all the way back to St. Iraneaus of Lyons.
Quote please?
First, the Pope's extraordinary authority does not come from his ordination,
Then he doesn't have it.


Quote
so he is not a higher level of priest. And for Iraneaus of Lyons, we have debated the quote ad nauseam about how all must be in agreement/communion with Rome because of her superior origin, and the orgin it describes is Sts. Peter and Paul. Do we have to go down this road again?
I was not aware that Christ gave the Keys to St. Paul.
He did to peter. What's your point? You are grasping at straws.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 01:41:03 PM by Papist » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #497 on: January 27, 2010, 01:47:24 PM »

It's interesting that you insist on stating that we believe that the Papacy is the highest level of the priesthood when it is no such thing. It is the same level as that of a Bishop.

Are all bishops infallible?

Can the bishop of Sao Paolo act without the bishop of Mexico City?  Can either act without the bishop of Rome? Roll Eyes

READ Lumen Gentium:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11171.msg299926.html#msg299926
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20203.msg302575.html#msg302575




Quote
And the idea of Papal authority being derived from Peter goes all the way back to St. Iraneaus of Lyons.
Quote please?
First, the Pope's extraordinary authority does not come from his ordination,
Then he doesn't have it.


Quote
so he is not a higher level of priest. And for Iraneaus of Lyons, we have debated the quote ad nauseam about how all must be in agreement/communion with Rome because of her superior origin, and the orgin it describes is Sts. Peter and Paul. Do we have to go down this road again?
I was not aware that Christ gave the Keys to St. Paul.
He did to peter. What's your point?

Then why the reference to St. Paul in those "origins"?  Why indeed, when the Ultramontanist interpretation of of Matthew 16 was dreamed up, that the references to St. Paul at Rome dry up in the West? You'll note, St. Iranauses doesn't reference Matthew 16.


Quote
You are grasping at straws.
No, just burning them.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 01:47:42 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #498 on: January 27, 2010, 01:49:12 PM »

It's interesting that you insist on stating that we believe that the Papacy is the highest level of the priesthood when it is no such thing. It is the same level as that of a Bishop.

Are all bishops infallible?

Can the bishop of Sao Paolo act without the bishop of Mexico City?  Can either act without the bishop of Rome? Roll Eyes

READ Lumen Gentium:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11171.msg299926.html#msg299926
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20203.msg302575.html#msg302575




Quote
And the idea of Papal authority being derived from Peter goes all the way back to St. Iraneaus of Lyons.
Quote please?
First, the Pope's extraordinary authority does not come from his ordination,
Then he doesn't have it.


Quote
so he is not a higher level of priest. And for Iraneaus of Lyons, we have debated the quote ad nauseam about how all must be in agreement/communion with Rome because of her superior origin, and the orgin it describes is Sts. Peter and Paul. Do we have to go down this road again?
I was not aware that Christ gave the Keys to St. Paul.
He did to peter. What's your point?

Then why the reference to St. Paul in those "origins"?  Why indeed, when the Ultramontanist interpretation of of Matthew 16 was dreamed up, that the references to St. Paul at Rome dry up in the West? You'll note, St. Iranauses doesn't reference Matthew 16.


Quote
You are grasping at straws.
No, just burning them.

I am sure St. Peter was emphasized because he was given the Keys. This doesn't mean that St. Paul is not a part of this too.
As for what  you are burning, perhaps its effecting your judgement.  Cheesy
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« Reply #499 on: January 27, 2010, 02:02:33 PM »

I am sure St. Peter was emphasized because he was given the Keys.

All the Apostles received the keys.

This doesn't mean that St. Paul is not a part of this too.

Of course he was.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 02:02:52 PM by Mickey » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #500 on: January 27, 2010, 02:12:08 PM »


I am sure St. Peter was emphasized because he was given the Keys.

You assUme that.  The texts do not say that.  Nor do they distinguish between St. Peter and St. Paul.


Quote
This doesn't mean that St. Paul is not a part of this too.

Of course he was, as is every bishop.  and that means EVERY bishop.

Quote
As for what  you are burning, perhaps its effecting your judgement.
Incense.  Yes, it elevates it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 02:12:37 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #501 on: January 27, 2010, 02:23:32 PM »

Incense.  Yes, it elevates it.

 Smiley
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« Reply #502 on: January 27, 2010, 02:47:48 PM »


I am sure St. Peter was emphasized because he was given the Keys.

You assUme that.  The texts do not say that.  Nor do they distinguish between St. Peter and St. Paul.


Quote
This doesn't mean that St. Paul is not a part of this too.

Of course he was, as is every bishop.  and that means EVERY bishop.

Quote
As for what  you are burning, perhaps its effecting your judgement.
Incense.  Yes, it elevates it.
righhhhhhhht. "Incense".  Wink
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« Reply #503 on: January 27, 2010, 04:06:31 PM »

I am sure St. Peter was emphasized because he was given the Keys.

All the Apostles received the keys.

This doesn't mean that St. Paul is not a part of this too.

Of course he was.

Bible at hand please.
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« Reply #504 on: January 27, 2010, 04:45:26 PM »

¿What do you think?
¿What should we think?


¿ONE?, ¿HOLY?, ¡¿CATHOLIC?!
Not if one bases his definition of "one", "holy", and "catholic" purely on outward appearances.  However, despite the outward ¿ appearance of disunity?, we are still ¿one Church? in that we still preach one faith, the faith of the Apostles, and we still partake of one Eucharist in that someone from the Greek Archdiocese can travel to Moscow and receive Communion from the hand of a Russian priest.  At least we have enough of a catholic consciousness to recognize that the practice of having multiple bishops with parallel jurisdiction over the same geographical territory is a terrible violation of the canonical norm and are trying to find ways to remedy this.  But this situation does not cut to the core of our life as the Church, since it does not separate Christians at the very chalice of our Lord's Body and Blood.

I think that we didn´t read the same article.
I read it, all right.  That doesn't mean I have to agree with the conclusions you draw from it.
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« Reply #505 on: January 27, 2010, 04:50:39 PM »

PHILIP, Archbishop of New York and Metropolitan of All North America

..." I believe that Canon 28, historically, is a contextual canon and not a dogmatic one; it gave the city of Constantinople certain rights as the New Rome for secular, political reasons because it was the seat of the emperor."...

Do you all agree with him?


What does that have to do with ecumenism?

When Catholics and Orthodox unite, the canonical territories will have to find order.
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« Reply #506 on: January 27, 2010, 04:56:21 PM »

If Orthodoxy thinks that their communion is rather intelectual than absolut, there we see the principle of schism.
I think you may be misrepresenting our concept of unity with this reasoning.  We don't see unity as intellectual or as something invisible.  We just don't see unity as merely the property of the bishops, such that competing episcopal jurisdictions of different ethnicities would reveal a true disunity.  Our unity is based on the common partaking of the one Loaf, which is Christ.

I really feel sorrow of needs of Patriarch Bartholomew I, who has been left alone by the ""Communion"" of orthodoxy, as we can read in the full article I've posted, Russian orthodoxy disputes the primacy of the church to Constantinople and no russian cn see Patriarch Bartholomew as higher than Patriarch Kiril.
And yet Moscow continues to maintain sacramental communion with Constantinople, and, as Ialmisry pointed out, Patriarch Kyrill still commemorates Patriarch Bartholomew in every Divine Liturgy he celebrates.  Contrast that against the fact that they don't commemorate the Pope of Rome.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 04:59:36 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #507 on: January 27, 2010, 04:59:20 PM »

PHILIP, Archbishop of New York and Metropolitan of All North America

..." I believe that Canon 28, historically, is a contextual canon and not a dogmatic one; it gave the city of Constantinople certain rights as the New Rome for secular, political reasons because it was the seat of the emperor."...

Do you all agree with him?


What does that have to do with ecumenism?

When Catholics and Orthodox unite, the canonical territories will have to find order.
Our canonical territories need to find order as it is, but these territorial differences don't change the fact that we are still united in the Sacraments.
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« Reply #508 on: January 27, 2010, 05:02:27 PM »

If Orthodoxy thinks that their communion is rather intelectual than absolut, there we see the principle of schism.
I think you may be misrepresenting our concept of unity with this reasoning.  We don't see unity as intellectual or as something invisible.  We just don't see unity as merely the property of the bishops, such that competing episcopal jurisdictions of different ethnicities would reveal a true disunity.  Our unity is based on the common partaking of the one Loaf, which is Christ.

I really feel sorrow of needs of Patriarch Bartholomew I, who has been left alone by the ""Communion"" of orthodoxy, as we can read in the full article I've posted, Russian orthodoxy disputes the primacy of the church to Constantinople and no russian cn see Patriarch Bartholomew as higher than Patriarch Kiril.
And yet Moscow continues to maintain sacramental communion with Constantinople, and, as Ialmisry pointed out, Patriarch Kyrill still commemorates Patriarch Bartholomew in every Divine Liturgy he celebrates.  Contrast that against the fact that they don't commemorate the Pope of Rome.

It is not quite far when you will conmemorate Pope Benedict XVI, or one of his succesors.
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« Reply #509 on: January 27, 2010, 05:04:29 PM »

PHILIP, Archbishop of New York and Metropolitan of All North America

..." I believe that Canon 28, historically, is a contextual canon and not a dogmatic one; it gave the city of Constantinople certain rights as the New Rome for secular, political reasons because it was the seat of the emperor."...

Do you all agree with him?


What does that have to do with ecumenism?

When Catholics and Orthodox unite, the canonical territories will have to find order.
Our canonical territories need to find order as it is, but these territorial differences don't change the fact that we are still united in the Sacraments.

Not to far to be united, and then we will see a new Ecumenical Council, Catholic-Orthodox, and there this points will find order despite your opinion and my opinion.
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« Reply #510 on: January 27, 2010, 05:06:40 PM »

If Orthodoxy thinks that their communion is rather intelectual than absolut, there we see the principle of schism.
I think you may be misrepresenting our concept of unity with this reasoning.  We don't see unity as intellectual or as something invisible.  We just don't see unity as merely the property of the bishops, such that competing episcopal jurisdictions of different ethnicities would reveal a true disunity.  Our unity is based on the common partaking of the one Loaf, which is Christ.

I really feel sorrow of needs of Patriarch Bartholomew I, who has been left alone by the ""Communion"" of orthodoxy, as we can read in the full article I've posted, Russian orthodoxy disputes the primacy of the church to Constantinople and no russian cn see Patriarch Bartholomew as higher than Patriarch Kiril.
And yet Moscow continues to maintain sacramental communion with Constantinople, and, as Ialmisry pointed out, Patriarch Kyrill still commemorates Patriarch Bartholomew in every Divine Liturgy he celebrates.  Contrast that against the fact that they don't commemorate the Pope of Rome.

It is not quite far when you will conmemorate Pope Benedict XVI, or one of his succesors.
I hope so, but only after the Papacy and the church he oversees repents of the heresies that have separated you from us.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #511 on: January 27, 2010, 05:08:39 PM »

If Orthodoxy thinks that their communion is rather intelectual than absolut, there we see the principle of schism.
I think you may be misrepresenting our concept of unity with this reasoning.  We don't see unity as intellectual or as something invisible.  We just don't see unity as merely the property of the bishops, such that competing episcopal jurisdictions of different ethnicities would reveal a true disunity.  Our unity is based on the common partaking of the one Loaf, which is Christ.

I really feel sorrow of needs of Patriarch Bartholomew I, who has been left alone by the ""Communion"" of orthodoxy, as we can read in the full article I've posted, Russian orthodoxy disputes the primacy of the church to Constantinople and no russian cn see Patriarch Bartholomew as higher than Patriarch Kiril.
And yet Moscow continues to maintain sacramental communion with Constantinople, and, as Ialmisry pointed out, Patriarch Kyrill still commemorates Patriarch Bartholomew in every Divine Liturgy he celebrates.  Contrast that against the fact that they don't commemorate the Pope of Rome.

It is not quite far when you will conmemorate Pope Benedict XVI, or one of his succesors.
They have started to drop the filioque, so they are going to go all the way back to Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #512 on: January 27, 2010, 05:10:51 PM »

After thinking a bit more about Church Fathers who were "pastorally gentle," rather than simply beating people over the heads with what they perceived the truth to be, another quote of St. Gregory the Theologian (my favorite saint, can you tell?  Grin ) came to mind:

Quote
"Some are benefited by praise, others by blame, both being applied in season; while if out of season, or unreasonable, they are injurious; some are set right by encouragement, others by rebuke; some, when taken to task in public, others, when privately corrected. For some are wont to despise private admonitions, but are recalled to their senses by the condemnation of a number of people, while others, who would grow reckless under reproof openly given, accept rebuke because it is in secret, and yield obedience in return for sympathy.

Upon some it is needful to keep a close watch, even in the minutest details, because if they think they are unperceived (as they would contrive to be), they are puffed up with the idea of their own wisdom. Of others it is better to take no notice, but seeing not to see, and hearing not to hear them, according to the proverb, that we may not drive them to despair, under the depressing influence of repeated reproofs, and at last to utter recklessness, when they have lost the sense of self-respect, the source of persuasiveness. In some cases we must even be angry, without feeling angry, or treat them with a disdain we do not feel, or manifest despair, though we do not really despair of them, according to the needs of their nature. Others again we must treat with condescension and lowliness, aiding them readily to conceive a hope of better things. Some it is often more advantageous to conquer— by others to be overcome, and to praise or deprecate, in one case wealth and power, in another poverty and failure." - Oration 2, 31-32

Maybe some people are indeed moved by strongly-worded polemics... but if so, it would only be a fraction of people, and it might cause more harm than good if/when you put words with such a harsh tone out there for an audience made up of many different types of people.

Thanks for the quotes from St Gregory Smiley  This last one, I think, is what nails it. Different people and groups of people need different things. Some are too weak to even cross the threshold of some more strict people's minimum. I suppose this is the beauty of the Catechumenate.
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« Reply #513 on: January 27, 2010, 05:12:08 PM »

I also want to point that When Catholics and Orthodox become united, then we will see the true schismatics from both sides, from Catholicism and from Orthodoxy, some of those birds are chanting here around, and many of them are deeply protestant guys. infiltrated as sheep dressed wolves among true orthodoxy.
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« Reply #514 on: January 27, 2010, 05:18:07 PM »

Perhaps the Credo will be with no "Filioque" but with "per Filio", Or perhaps we will reach a point where it really doesn't matter. ¿Who knows the Trinity?.
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« Reply #515 on: January 27, 2010, 05:39:17 PM »

Perhaps the Credo will be with no "Filioque" but with "per Filio", Or perhaps we will reach a point where it really doesn't matter. ¿Who knows the Trinity?.
The Son.  And He said of the Spirit "the Comforter, Who proceeds from the Father."
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« Reply #516 on: January 27, 2010, 05:43:06 PM »


EDIT--Hmm, well I've decided to edit this, so as not to offend anyone. Suffice to say, both sides seem able to bring forth statements of St. Gregory to evidence their position... so...

I haven't seen any evidence here to suggest that Gregory believed in Roman supremacy.
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« Reply #517 on: January 27, 2010, 05:47:44 PM »

Pagan Rome + Christian persecution + Roman Catholicism  +  Papal inquisitions (more Christian murders) + Ecumenism = NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE KINGDOM OF THE ANTI-CHRIST  Nothing New Under the Sun
There. I have fixed it. Smiley
We must not operate either out of fear nor panic, as I see most people with "apocalyptic" ideas do. Why should the Christians in the days of the Antichrist do anything different to the Christians of the first, second, third.......21st centuries? Our duty is is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body and to love our neighbour as ourself. Nothing in this duty of ours changes even if we are standing in the throne-room of the Antichrist himself. Our duty as Christians is still the same no matter what, so why the panic? And if we are weak and experience panic in difficult situations, we should at least try not to communicate our panic to others.




Pope visit synogonue?!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/17/italy.pope.synagigue/index.html

Something really fishy here.
2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.



Mt 9:35
Acts 13:5,14
Acts 14:1
Acts 17: 1-2,17
Acts 18:1,4-6
Acts 18:19
Acts 19:1,8

Hope this is enough for you to know that the Gospel needs to be proclamed among those who do not believe.




Alonso, they have a different theory of unity than we do.

"They"? Since when was "Get Behind Me Satan" representing a plurality of persons?
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« Reply #518 on: January 27, 2010, 05:57:28 PM »


EDIT--Hmm, well I've decided to edit this, so as not to offend anyone. Suffice to say, both sides seem able to bring forth statements of St. Gregory to evidence their position... so...

I haven't seen any evidence here to suggest that Gregory believed in Roman supremacy.

I gave a link that provided quotes such as:

"Inasmuch as it is manifest that the Apostolic See, is, by the ordering of God, set over all Churches, there is, among our manifold cares, especial demand for our attention..."

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."

I can direct you to a watering hole, but I suppose I can't make you drink...

If you do a Google search I'm sure you could many more pages on the topic. But you'll have to find your own way to the next watering hole Wink
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« Reply #519 on: January 27, 2010, 05:57:56 PM »

Quote
First, the Pope's extraordinary authority does not come from his ordination,
Then he doesn't have it.

That's not logically necessary. There's no reason the Church could not canonically grant a see certain prerogatives that are not inherent to their priesthood.
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« Reply #520 on: January 27, 2010, 06:02:51 PM »


I also want to point that When Catholics and Orthodox become united, then we will see the true schismatics from both sides, from Catholicism and from Orthodoxy, some of those birds are chanting here around, and many of them are deeply protestant guys. infiltrated as sheep dressed wolves among true orthodoxy.

If it is a false union then those who join with Rome will be the real schismatics.
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« Reply #521 on: January 27, 2010, 06:04:55 PM »


Perhaps the Credo will be with no "Filioque" but with "per Filio", Or perhaps we will reach a point where it really doesn't matter. ¿Who knows the Trinity?.

"Per filio" would still seemingly be a violation of the canonical regulations of the Creed, even if it may not be an erroneous interpretation of orthodox Triadology.
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« Reply #522 on: January 27, 2010, 06:05:58 PM »


EDIT--Hmm, well I've decided to edit this, so as not to offend anyone. Suffice to say, both sides seem able to bring forth statements of St. Gregory to evidence their position... so...

I haven't seen any evidence here to suggest that Gregory believed in Roman supremacy.

I gave a link that provided quotes such as:

"Inasmuch as it is manifest that the Apostolic See, is, by the ordering of God, set over all Churches, there is, among our manifold cares, especial demand for our attention..."

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."

I can direct you to a watering hole, but I suppose I can't make you drink...

If you do a Google search I'm sure you could many more pages on the topic. But you'll have to find your own way to the next watering hole Wink

I don't see this as evidence. What makes you think he wasn't referring to the Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch together in those quotes rather than just Rome?
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« Reply #523 on: January 27, 2010, 06:06:23 PM »


I also want to point that When Catholics and Orthodox become united, then we will see the true schismatics from both sides, from Catholicism and from Orthodoxy, some of those birds are chanting here around, and many of them are deeply protestant guys. infiltrated as sheep dressed wolves among true orthodoxy.

If it is a false union then those who join with Rome will be the real schismatics.

What is the 'fate' of 'real' schismatics...
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« Reply #524 on: January 27, 2010, 06:16:30 PM »


I also want to point that When Catholics and Orthodox become united, then we will see the true schismatics from both sides, from Catholicism and from Orthodoxy, some of those birds are chanting here around, and many of them are deeply protestant guys. infiltrated as sheep dressed wolves among true orthodoxy.

If it is a false union then those who join with Rome will be the real schismatics.

What is the 'fate' of 'real' schismatics...

Fate?
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« Reply #525 on: January 27, 2010, 06:20:39 PM »

According to Dante, they'll walk around the eighth circle of hell, getting periodically chopped in half.
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« Reply #526 on: January 27, 2010, 06:33:30 PM »


What is the 'fate' of 'real' schismatics...

Fate?

Yeah, since we are schismatics or better yet heretics... what is the fate of them? I think you're Divine Liturgy places heretics in Hell for eternal torment correct? At least that is the fate of Arius if the Divine Liturgy is correct. Is that the fate of all Heretics? As a Roman Catholic is that my fate? What of my daughter?

hey, Get_Behind_Me_Satan could you give us some quotes as to the fate of heretic Roman Catholics?
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« Reply #527 on: January 27, 2010, 06:42:01 PM »


Yeah, since we are schismatics or better yet heretics... what is the fate of them?

Unknown.


I think you're Divine Liturgy places heretics in Hell for eternal torment correct? At least that is the fate of Arius if the Divine Liturgy is correct.

Which "Divine Liturgy" are you talking about?
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« Reply #528 on: January 27, 2010, 07:48:43 PM »


EDIT--Hmm, well I've decided to edit this, so as not to offend anyone. Suffice to say, both sides seem able to bring forth statements of St. Gregory to evidence their position... so...

I haven't seen any evidence here to suggest that Gregory believed in Roman supremacy.

I gave a link that provided quotes such as:

"Inasmuch as it is manifest that the Apostolic See, is, by the ordering of God, set over all Churches, there is, among our manifold cares, especial demand for our attention..."

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."


Of course, then there's that problem of him calling Alexandria and Antioch Petrine Sees, of the One See (his words) of St. Peter.
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« Reply #529 on: January 27, 2010, 07:55:11 PM »

Perhaps the Credo will be with no "Filioque" but with "per Filio", Or perhaps we will reach a point where it really doesn't matter. ¿Who knows the Trinity?.
The Son.  And He said of the Spirit "the Comforter, Who proceeds from the Father."

But He also made this:

Jn 20:22

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.


He is giving the Holy Spirit of New Life resembling Genesis 2:7

Genesis 2:7

7 the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.


So as well as the Father who blew life into clay by the Holy Spirit, his Only Son, our Lord Jesus, also blew the New Life to his disciples by the Holy Spirit. So we can't make a so big omision that Our Lord Jesus, who obeys His Father, can also give the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #530 on: January 27, 2010, 08:00:32 PM »

Perhaps the Credo will be with no "Filioque" but with "per Filio", Or perhaps we will reach a point where it really doesn't matter. ¿Who knows the Trinity?.
The Son.  And He said of the Spirit "the Comforter, Who proceeds from the Father."

But He also made this:

Jn 20:22

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.


He is giving the Holy Spirit of New Life resembling Genesis 2:7

Genesis 2:7

7 the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.


So as well as the Father who blew life into clay by the Holy Spirit, his Only Son, our Lord Jesus, also blew the New Life to his disciples by the Holy Spirit. So we can't make a so big omision that Our Lord Jesus, who obeys His Father, can also give the Holy Spirit.
And so begins the discussion about the difference between the "economic Trinity" vs. the "theological Trinity" which devolves into a debate about the essence/energies distinction vs. divine simplicity. Can I call it or can I call it? LOL.

Brother, I think a better arguement would be the fact that the New Testament referrs to the Holy Spirit as both the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son.
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« Reply #531 on: January 27, 2010, 08:16:21 PM »

Perhaps the Credo will be with no "Filioque" but with "per Filio", Or perhaps we will reach a point where it really doesn't matter. ¿Who knows the Trinity?.
The Son.  And He said of the Spirit "the Comforter, Who proceeds from the Father."

But He also made this:

Jn 20:22

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.


He is giving the Holy Spirit of New Life resembling Genesis 2:7

Genesis 2:7

7 the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.


So as well as the Father who blew life into clay by the Holy Spirit, his Only Son, our Lord Jesus, also blew the New Life to his disciples by the Holy Spirit. So we can't make a so big omision that Our Lord Jesus, who obeys His Father, can also give the Holy Spirit.
Gee, what a shame that the Fathers of the Second Ecumenical Council didn't have those verses to guide their theology. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #532 on: January 27, 2010, 08:19:18 PM »

Perhaps the Credo will be with no "Filioque" but with "per Filio", Or perhaps we will reach a point where it really doesn't matter. ¿Who knows the Trinity?.
The Son.  And He said of the Spirit "the Comforter, Who proceeds from the Father."

But He also made this:

Jn 20:22

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.


He is giving the Holy Spirit of New Life resembling Genesis 2:7

Genesis 2:7

7 the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.


So as well as the Father who blew life into clay by the Holy Spirit, his Only Son, our Lord Jesus, also blew the New Life to his disciples by the Holy Spirit. So we can't make a so big omision that Our Lord Jesus, who obeys His Father, can also give the Holy Spirit.
Gee, what a shame that the Fathers of the Second Ecumenical Council didn't have those verses to guide their theology. Roll Eyes
Its also too bad they didn't have you guys around to make the Creed say "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father only and under no circumstance does he proceed from or through the Son like those nasty Latins keep saying."
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« Reply #533 on: January 27, 2010, 08:35:00 PM »


I also want to point that When Catholics and Orthodox become united, then we will see the true schismatics from both sides, from Catholicism and from Orthodoxy, some of those birds are chanting here around, and many of them are deeply protestant guys. infiltrated as sheep dressed wolves among true orthodoxy.

If it is a false union then those who join with Rome will be the real schismatics.

What is the 'fate' of 'real' schismatics...
Like unicellular organisms, they will divide and multiple.
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« Reply #534 on: January 27, 2010, 09:05:05 PM »

Perhaps the Credo will be with no "Filioque" but with "per Filio", Or perhaps we will reach a point where it really doesn't matter. ¿Who knows the Trinity?.
The Son.  And He said of the Spirit "the Comforter, Who proceeds from the Father."

But He also made this:

Jn 20:22

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.


He is giving the Holy Spirit of New Life resembling Genesis 2:7

Genesis 2:7

7 the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.


So as well as the Father who blew life into clay by the Holy Spirit, his Only Son, our Lord Jesus, also blew the New Life to his disciples by the Holy Spirit. So we can't make a so big omision that Our Lord Jesus, who obeys His Father, can also give the Holy Spirit.
Gee, what a shame that the Fathers of the Second Ecumenical Council didn't have those verses to guide their theology. Roll Eyes
Its also too bad they didn't have you guys around to make the Creed say "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father only and under no circumstance does he proceed from or through the Son like those nasty Latins keep saying will say a couple centuries from now."
fixed that for you.
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« Reply #535 on: January 27, 2010, 10:19:09 PM »


Brother, I think a better arguement would be the fact that the New Testament referrs to the Holy Spirit as both the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son.

Not really. Since when is causation the only relationship that can be considered in such a matter of possession?
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« Reply #536 on: January 27, 2010, 10:27:55 PM »

Which "Divine Liturgy" are you talking about?

Father Ambrose told me in my post about Hell, Hades, etc... that the Divine Liturgy places Arius in Hell.
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« Reply #537 on: January 27, 2010, 11:02:25 PM »

Which "Divine Liturgy" are you talking about?

Father Ambrose told me in my post about Hell, Hades, etc... that the Divine Liturgy places Arius in Hell.

Which Divine Liturgy places Arius in hell? You're acting as if there is only one.
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« Reply #538 on: January 27, 2010, 11:15:23 PM »

Which "Divine Liturgy" are you talking about?

Father Ambrose told me in my post about Hell, Hades, etc... that the Divine Liturgy places Arius in Hell.

Which Divine Liturgy places Arius in hell? You're acting as if there is only one.

When I ask Father Ambrose if there were any in Hell... he said, "I would say Yes.  The devil and the demons are there, as well as Arius (according to the Church services.)   Others will probably be there as well."

So, you'll have to ask him. You do know that I'm not Orthodox right? I don't know your Liturgies. The West has always had a different Liturgical Tradition.   
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« Reply #539 on: January 28, 2010, 12:15:05 AM »

Which "Divine Liturgy" are you talking about?

Father Ambrose told me in my post about Hell, Hades, etc... that the Divine Liturgy places Arius in Hell.

Which Divine Liturgy places Arius in hell? You're acting as if there is only one.

When I ask Father Ambrose if there were any in Hell... he said, "I would say Yes.  The devil and the demons are there, as well as Arius (according to the Church services.)   Others will probably be there as well."

So, you'll have to ask him. You do know that I'm not Orthodox right? I don't know your Liturgies. The West has always had a different Liturgical Tradition.   

That's a very ambiguous statement. Irish Hermit and I are from different religious traditions anyway.

As for your question, nobody is yet in eternal hell. And even of those who are in temporary hell now as a result of the particular judgment I will not seek to name who they are. That is up for God to judge. So as to what happens to heretics and schismatics, unless they are changed they will eventually wind up in eternal hell. But I won't rule out the possibility of any of them changing their state between now and the Final Judgment.
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