Author Topic: Ecumenism (opinion on news)  (Read 103858 times)

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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #450 on: January 26, 2010, 10:48:42 PM »

That would be nice, But you can't 'force' people to be united to your state of mind.

I'm not talking about forcing people to become Orthodox. I'm only talking about the possibility that they may convert of their own will, and the reality that dialogue may facilitate their realization that Orthodoxy is the one true religion.


So you don't believe in the anti-christ?

Depends on what you mean by that. But why are you asking anyway? That seems sort of tangential.

People say that 'Othodoxy is the best kept secret'

And I dont understand why it would be any different today, its been that way for thousands of years.

It's only a "secret" because many no longer care about it and it has fallen into obscurity in certain cultures.

It would be problematic if you wanted to keep it a secret. The Fathers have never expressed an interest historically to keep Orthodoxy a secret, quite the contrary.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #451 on: January 26, 2010, 10:49:51 PM »
So for me to be Orthodox, I have to agree with this kind of dribble? This is 'The Cure' for the ills of the World? I've seen far more constructive vitriol out of Muslims. Why does every religion end up like this? Like versions of Get_Behind_Me_Satan?

I've dialogued with Muslim versions of Get_Behind_Me_Satan... Fundamentalist versions of Get_Behind_Me_Satan... Traditional Catholic versions of Get_Behind_Me_Satan... and now I've met the Orthodox version.

What's sad is that Orthodox honestly can deny him because their polemics support everything that he is saying.

Man, I'm going to have to be a Church on One.

Eh. I went through a similar phase not long after I converted to Orthodoxy. In my mind, if Orthodoxy was the truth faith, then I wanted to make sure that I had the super duper 100% guaranteed ultra-true faith! But Orthodox need not go to such extremes, even when they are very concerned about things such as ecumenism and whatnot. Consider Fr. Anastasios, who is a priest in an old calendarist group, yet he posts in a sober and informed manner, and is respectful when people express opinions which are contrary to his.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 10:51:13 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #452 on: January 26, 2010, 10:50:50 PM »
The reports of the demise of religion in the modern world are greatly exagerated.
I suppose I meant organised religion more.  Everyday you run into more 'spiritual' people rather than people who adhere to any sort of Church (other than culturally, maybe).

I don't belong to any organized religion. I'm Orthodox.

Is that a joke?

Indeed it is not. A similar sentiment is expressed in the signature of the poster Αριστοκλής, who quotes Fr. John Romanides as saying: "Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." I still think these types of statements are rather silly and confusing things to say... but Αριστοκλής, Marc1152, ozgeorge, et al. seem to like the idea that Orthodoxy is not a religion. *shrugs* :)

Bizarre.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #453 on: January 26, 2010, 10:54:11 PM »

What's sad is that Orthodox honestly can deny him because their polemics support everything that he is saying.

You're dead wrong about that. I've made it quite clear that he is erroneous or at list misspoken on a few points.

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #454 on: January 26, 2010, 11:26:31 PM »
How long have you been Orthodox, Get_Behind_Me_Satan?

Since I was 8, and now I am 20. But I never was interested in it until last year, when I had a near death experience on an overdose because of the demons I had let into my life from my dissolute life.
I had thought that aliens took over the world because I was soooo addicted to conspiracy videos, it completely ruled my life.

<<<Grandmotherly advice alert!!>>>

GBMS,

You haven't asked for any advice, and forgive me that I feel compelled to say something. But it appears that you might be prone to extremes. I honestly suggest that you leave the ecumenical stuff alone for a while until you actually settle down into Orthodoxy. If someone is giving you - a recent believer - this stuff to deal with, when it's clear that it agitates you - I would avoid them and find something more beneficial for your soul to concentrate on.

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #455 on: January 27, 2010, 12:06:26 AM »
How long have you been Orthodox, Get_Behind_Me_Satan?

Since I was 8, and now I am 20. But I never was interested in it until last year, when I had a near death experience on an overdose because of the demons I had let into my life from my dissolute life.
I had thought that aliens took over the world because I was soooo addicted to conspiracy videos, it completely ruled my life.

Because of my OD
I went through a complete transformation in the way I live and think.
All I do is read orthodox books, pray and try to do good.
Try not to anger my creator anymore.

If you read in the forums for prayer requests i'm in there as, "pray for my demon possessed soul''

I'm glad to hear that you are on the correct path. Glory to god. 

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #456 on: January 27, 2010, 12:44:52 AM »
How long have you been Orthodox, Get_Behind_Me_Satan?

Since I was 8, and now I am 20. But I never was interested in it until last year, when I had a near death experience on an overdose because of the demons I had let into my life from my dissolute life.
I had thought that aliens took over the world because I was soooo addicted to conspiracy videos, it completely ruled my life.

<<<Grandmotherly advice alert!!>>>

GBMS,

You haven't asked for any advice, and forgive me that I feel compelled to say something. But it appears that you might be prone to extremes. I honestly suggest that you leave the ecumenical stuff alone for a while until you actually settle down into Orthodoxy. If someone is giving you - a recent believer - this stuff to deal with, when it's clear that it agitates you - I would avoid them and find something more beneficial for your soul to concentrate on.



I agree. It's wonderful that you are immersed in the faith, but I think you need to take a step back from polemics before you burn yourself out. (Hey, that's some advice I could give myself, too!)
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #457 on: January 27, 2010, 12:58:16 AM »

It would be great if Catholics would convert to orthodoxy...

Conversion is a form of religious union. Thus for you to condemn all forms of religious union is misleading.

Also, in case it hasn't been made clear enough yet, Orthodoxy is real Catholicism.

You obvious have been blinded by the spirit of the times, 'What concord hath Christ with Belial'?
'Come Out From Among Them, And I Will Receive You'

2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Cor. 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Cor. 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Cor. 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,


This all because of the pope, and evil men who are in charge of Greek Orthodoxy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JOOJPDuEc
http://www.esphigmenou.com/


I get the sense that you don't even understand what I'm saying, or even what you yourself are saying.

I'll try one more time and see if you can get.

If the Roman church were to be returned to the Orthodox Church by their rejection of their long-held heresies and an acceptance of the dogmatic tradition of the Orthodox Church, this would clearly be a form of religious union, though a different form from what you have been predominantly speaking of. If you condemn this form of union then you are clearly off the mark.

Catholicism is the tradition of the Church of Christ as has been established by the Church Fathers. The Orthodox Church at the time of the Second Ecumenical Council called the Orthodox Church the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church". As such, Orthodoxy is the real Catholicism that the Fathers were talking about rather than Romanism/Papism.


But that is not what is happening, or what happened, what happened was Pope John Paul II Got together with ALL OF THE RELIGIONS to create a united entity.

Does this not video yell out to your soul?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JOOJPDuEc

This form of union has happened before at various times in history.

I don't know why you're zoning in exclusively on modern ecumenism.

It is a form of religious union, one that neither of us appear to agree with, but it is not the only form of religious union.

Do you know a lot about the Arian controversy? Have you read at all about the council of Alexandria in 362? The explicitly Nicene party led by Athanasius the Great was separated from the "homoiousian" party of the Cappadocian Fathers, but eventually they sat down and talked and realized that they actually held the same faith, and entered into communion with one another. Do you think it was wrong for them to have done this? Or do you recognize that this is an acceptable for of religious union?

Just because there are many nowadays advocating false forms of union doesn't mean that we cannot in contrast advocate real union by attempting to influence other to conformity to Orthodox dogma.

Its the Power hungery Pope who has already united our religions together under false pretenses of love

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOGQVvEU8vY
“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #458 on: January 27, 2010, 01:10:08 AM »

That would be nice, But you can't 'force' people to be united to your state of mind.

I'm not talking about forcing people to become Orthodox. I'm only talking about the possibility that they may convert of their own will, and the reality that dialogue may facilitate their realization that Orthodoxy is the one true religion.


So you don't believe in the anti-christ?

Depends on what you mean by that. But why are you asking anyway? That seems sort of tangential.

People say that 'Othodoxy is the best kept secret'

And I dont understand why it would be any different today, its been that way for thousands of years.

It's only a "secret" because many no longer care about it and it has fallen into obscurity in certain cultures.

It would be problematic if you wanted to keep it a secret. The Fathers have never expressed an interest historically to keep Orthodoxy a secret, quite the contrary.

The whole problem lies with the pope and the orthodoxs' union with them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JOOJPDuEc

http://www.esphigmenou.com/

There are masons in the church:

I would not doubt that The Greek Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew is a mason

http://mymartyrdom.com/orthomason.htm

An outstanding documentary on the whole ecumenism matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv2svBG5OH8&feature=related

“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #459 on: January 27, 2010, 01:22:38 AM »
How long have you been Orthodox, Get_Behind_Me_Satan?

Since I was 8, and now I am 20. But I never was interested in it until last year, when I had a near death experience on an overdose because of the demons I had let into my life from my dissolute life.
I had thought that aliens took over the world because I was soooo addicted to conspiracy videos, it completely ruled my life.

<<<Grandmotherly advice alert!!>>>

GBMS,

You haven't asked for any advice, and forgive me that I feel compelled to say something. But it appears that you might be prone to extremes. I honestly suggest that you leave the ecumenical stuff alone for a while until you actually settle down into Orthodoxy. If someone is giving you - a recent believer - this stuff to deal with, when it's clear that it agitates you - I would avoid them and find something more beneficial for your soul to concentrate on.



I agree. It's wonderful that you are immersed in the faith, but I think you need to take a step back from polemics before you burn yourself out. (Hey, that's some advice I could give myself, too!)

Yeah, I know im a 'grandmother', but thats the way people should be.
I used to live like I was a god.
And now I see the frailty of human life.
How ignorant the world is, and how blinded it is by this world.

1John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Eccl. 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

This is what I am afraid of:

2Pet. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

They (the Greeks) are killing these children of God:

http://www.esphigmenou.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/anti2ecume1satan1ism

“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #460 on: January 27, 2010, 01:28:28 AM »
PHILIP, Archbishop of New York and Metropolitan of All North America

..." I believe that Canon 28, historically, is a contextual canon and not a dogmatic one; it gave the city of Constantinople certain rights as the New Rome for secular, political reasons because it was the seat of the emperor."...

Do you all agree with him?


What does that have to do with ecumenism?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #461 on: January 27, 2010, 01:28:49 AM »
this is very very very very very bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MFg8FBOHDg&feature=related

Rev. 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev. 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #462 on: January 27, 2010, 01:35:29 AM »
So for me to be Orthodox, I have to agree with this kind of dribble? This is 'The Cure' for the ills of the World? I've seen far more constructive vitriol out of Muslims. Why does every religion end up like this? Like versions of Get_Behind_Me_Satan?

I've dialogued with Muslim versions of Get_Behind_Me_Satan... Fundamentalist versions of Get_Behind_Me_Satan... Traditional Catholic versions of Get_Behind_Me_Satan... and now I've met the Orthodox version.

What's sad is that Orthodox honestly can deny him because their polemics support everything that he is saying.

Man, I'm going to have to be a Church on One.

Eh. I went through a similar phase not long after I converted to Orthodoxy. In my mind, if Orthodoxy was the truth faith, then I wanted to make sure that I had the super duper 100% guaranteed ultra-true faith! But Orthodox need not go to such extremes, even when they are very concerned about things such as ecumenism and whatnot. Consider Fr. Anastasios, who is a priest in an old calendarist group, yet he posts in a sober and informed manner, and is respectful when people express opinions which are contrary to his.
And yet, he's not afraid to voice his disagreement with you when he deems it necessary to do so, which is actually a good thing for a discussion forum.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #463 on: January 27, 2010, 02:01:09 AM »
What do you all make of this quote from ARchbishop Hilarion's book "Mystery of Faith", especially St Basil's quote?

-------

Orthodox rigorists frequently claim that the Church Fathers were strict and rigid theologians who never allowed any contact with heretics. If we read the Fathers carefully, however, we see that some of them took a much broader view on reconciliation between the Church and those who separated themselves on theological grounds.

Some great theologians of the Early Church advanced the principle of a 'dogmatic minimum' for reconciliation, a minimum which would not presuppose full agreement on every dogmatic formulation. St. Basil the Great was in his own time a defender of the Nicene faith and a promulgator of the divinity of the Holy Spirit. However, because of his Arian surroundings, he never proclaimed the divinity of the Holy Spirit directly. he reasoned that, for reconciliation between the Arians and the Orthodox, the common basis of the Nicene faith and a confession that the Spirit is not a creature would be enough:

Quote
We demand nothing more: we only offer the Nicene faith to those brethren who want to be reconciled with us, and if they agree on that, we demand that the Holy Spirit should not be named ‘ creature’ . . . Apart from this, I agree not to demand anything.  For I am sure that after a long time of their communion with us and after their unequivocal instruction in the dogmas of faith, if anything would be necessary to be added for more clarity, the Lord will give this.

St. Basil clearly understood that Churches and theological groups may be in different stages of development: what is perfectly acceptable for some may seem quite unacceptable for others.  In due course, the Churches may come to receive those dogmatic formulae which were once seen as alien to their tradition.  For St. Basil, the unity of the Church was more important than unity in dogmatic language, which might be achieved if the principle of oikonomia (economy, dispensation) is applied: ‘ Most beneficial would be the reconciliation of what was so far separated; this reconciliation will take place if we agree to condescend to the weak in what will not do any damage to our souls.’
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 02:01:51 AM by bogdan »

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #464 on: January 27, 2010, 02:01:55 AM »

It would be great if Catholics would convert to orthodoxy...

Conversion is a form of religious union. Thus for you to condemn all forms of religious union is misleading.

Also, in case it hasn't been made clear enough yet, Orthodoxy is real Catholicism.

You obvious have been blinded by the spirit of the times, 'What concord hath Christ with Belial'?
'Come Out From Among Them, And I Will Receive You'

2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Cor. 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Cor. 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Cor. 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,


This all because of the pope, and evil men who are in charge of Greek Orthodoxy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JOOJPDuEc
http://www.esphigmenou.com/


I get the sense that you don't even understand what I'm saying, or even what you yourself are saying.

I'll try one more time and see if you can get.

If the Roman church were to be returned to the Orthodox Church by their rejection of their long-held heresies and an acceptance of the dogmatic tradition of the Orthodox Church, this would clearly be a form of religious union, though a different form from what you have been predominantly speaking of. If you condemn this form of union then you are clearly off the mark.

Catholicism is the tradition of the Church of Christ as has been established by the Church Fathers. The Orthodox Church at the time of the Second Ecumenical Council called the Orthodox Church the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church". As such, Orthodoxy is the real Catholicism that the Fathers were talking about rather than Romanism/Papism.


But that is not what is happening, or what happened, what happened was Pope John Paul II Got together with ALL OF THE RELIGIONS to create a united entity.

Does this not video yell out to your soul?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JOOJPDuEc

This form of union has happened before at various times in history.

I don't know why you're zoning in exclusively on modern ecumenism.

It is a form of religious union, one that neither of us appear to agree with, but it is not the only form of religious union.

Do you know a lot about the Arian controversy? Have you read at all about the council of Alexandria in 362? The explicitly Nicene party led by Athanasius the Great was separated from the "homoiousian" party of the Cappadocian Fathers, but eventually they sat down and talked and realized that they actually held the same faith, and entered into communion with one another. Do you think it was wrong for them to have done this? Or do you recognize that this is an acceptable for of religious union?

Just because there are many nowadays advocating false forms of union doesn't mean that we cannot in contrast advocate real union by attempting to influence other to conformity to Orthodox dogma.

Its the Power hungery Pope who has already united our religions together under false pretenses of love

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOGQVvEU8vY

Do you care to actually address what I'm saying or are you just going to go off on your typical tirades?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #465 on: January 27, 2010, 02:03:18 AM »

That would be nice, But you can't 'force' people to be united to your state of mind.

I'm not talking about forcing people to become Orthodox. I'm only talking about the possibility that they may convert of their own will, and the reality that dialogue may facilitate their realization that Orthodoxy is the one true religion.


So you don't believe in the anti-christ?

Depends on what you mean by that. But why are you asking anyway? That seems sort of tangential.

People say that 'Othodoxy is the best kept secret'

And I dont understand why it would be any different today, its been that way for thousands of years.

It's only a "secret" because many no longer care about it and it has fallen into obscurity in certain cultures.

It would be problematic if you wanted to keep it a secret. The Fathers have never expressed an interest historically to keep Orthodoxy a secret, quite the contrary.

The whole problem lies with the pope and the orthodoxs' union with them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JOOJPDuEc

http://www.esphigmenou.com/

There are masons in the church:

I would not doubt that The Greek Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew is a mason

http://mymartyrdom.com/orthomason.htm

An outstanding documentary on the whole ecumenism matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv2svBG5OH8&feature=related



Again, are you planning on actually addressing my post or are you just going to continue spamming this thread with propaganda? Because you don't need to involve me to do the latter.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #466 on: January 27, 2010, 02:12:18 AM »

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #467 on: January 27, 2010, 02:36:59 AM »
this is very very very very very bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MFg8FBOHDg&feature=related

"Very very very very very bad" for them to be reciting the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed together? Really? That seems rather overly dramatic.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #468 on: January 27, 2010, 02:39:49 AM »
Quote
What do you all make of this quote from ARchbishop Hilarion's book "Mystery of Faith", especially St Basil's quote?

I have read similar comments in other contemporary works. For example, one work on St. Gregory the Theologian said that he had to defend St. Basil against charges that St. Basil was unorthodox, because he would not go as far as some in proclaiming the deity of the Holy Spirit. St. Gregory himself seemed to speak respectfully rather than in a hostile manner to people who were unsure about such doctrines, for example when he said:

Quote
"If, my friends, you will not acknowledge the Holy Spirit to be uncreated, nor yet eternal; clearly such a state of mind is due to the contrary spirit— forgive me, if in my zeal I speak somewhat over boldly. If, however, you are sound enough to escape this evident impiety, and to place outside of slavery Him Who gives freedom to yourselves, then see for yourselves with the help of the Holy Ghost and of us what follows. For I am persuaded that you are to some extent partakers of Him, so that I will go into the question with you as kindred souls. Either show me some mean between lordship and servitude, that I may there place the rank of the Spirit; or, if you shrink from imputing servitude to Him, there is no doubt of the rank in which you must place the object of your search. But you are dissatisfied with the syllables, and you stumble at the word, and it is to you a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense; for so is Christ to some minds. It is only human after all. Let us meet one another in a spiritual manner; let us be full rather of brotherly than of self love...

Yet more clearly and concisely, let me say, do not you call us to account for our loftier word (for envy has nothing to do with this ascent), and we will not find fault with what you have been able to attain, until by another road you are brought up to the same resting place. For we are not seeking victory, but to gain brethren, by whose separation from us we are torn. This we concede to you in whom we do find something of vital truth, who are sound as to the Son. We admire your life, but we do not altogether approve your doctrine. You who have the things of the Spirit, receive Himself in addition, that you may not only strive, but strive lawfully, which is the condition of your crown." - Oration 41, 7-8

Gregory was perhaps pastorally gentle when it came to this issue because he saw the revealing of the idea of God as Trinity to be a gradual process. For example, he said:

Quote
"The Old Testament proclaimed the Father openly, and the Son more obscurely. The New manifested the Son, and suggested the Deity of the Spirit. Now the Spirit Himself dwells among us, and supplies us with a clearer demonstration of Himself. For it was not safe, when the Godhead of the Father was not yet acknowledged, plainly to proclaim the Son; nor when that of the Son was not yet received to burden us further (if I may use so bold an expression) with the Holy Ghost; lest perhaps people might, like men loaded with food beyond their strength, and presenting eyes as yet too weak to bear it to the sun's light, risk the loss even of that which was within the reach of their powers; but that by gradual additions, and, as David says, Goings up, and advances and progress from glory to glory, the Light of the Trinity might shine upon the more illuminated." - Oration 31, 26

So, with this in mind, St. Gregory might have been approaching the situation from the mindset of easing people into these beliefs, rather than using a "Believe or be condemned!" mentality.

Having said that, I cannot fully agree with the idea that St. Basil "never proclaimed the divinity of the Holy Spirit directly". I used to believe that, up until fairly recently (maybe 4 months ago). However, the last time that I went back and read On the Holy Spirit by St. Basil, I came away believing that St. Basil did indeed mean to defend the divinity of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #469 on: January 27, 2010, 02:42:27 AM »
“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #470 on: January 27, 2010, 02:49:14 AM »
this is very very very very very bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MFg8FBOHDg&feature=related

"Very very very very very bad" for them to be reciting the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed together? Really? That seems rather overly dramatic.
Yes it VERY bad, beacause Roman Catholics are HERETICS.
Orthodox Christian Doctrine is pure and undefiled by heresies.

This is the result of the merger of faiths:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JOOJPDuEc

The anti-christ's secret plan.

They killed, and are killing these soldiers of Christ:

http://www.esphigmenou.com/

This is the army of Christ, under attack by their own general.

“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #471 on: January 27, 2010, 02:54:29 AM »
After thinking a bit more about Church Fathers who were "pastorally gentle," rather than simply beating people over the heads with what they perceived the truth to be, another quote of St. Gregory the Theologian (my favorite saint, can you tell?  ;D ) came to mind:

Quote
"Some are benefited by praise, others by blame, both being applied in season; while if out of season, or unreasonable, they are injurious; some are set right by encouragement, others by rebuke; some, when taken to task in public, others, when privately corrected. For some are wont to despise private admonitions, but are recalled to their senses by the condemnation of a number of people, while others, who would grow reckless under reproof openly given, accept rebuke because it is in secret, and yield obedience in return for sympathy.

Upon some it is needful to keep a close watch, even in the minutest details, because if they think they are unperceived (as they would contrive to be), they are puffed up with the idea of their own wisdom. Of others it is better to take no notice, but seeing not to see, and hearing not to hear them, according to the proverb, that we may not drive them to despair, under the depressing influence of repeated reproofs, and at last to utter recklessness, when they have lost the sense of self-respect, the source of persuasiveness. In some cases we must even be angry, without feeling angry, or treat them with a disdain we do not feel, or manifest despair, though we do not really despair of them, according to the needs of their nature. Others again we must treat with condescension and lowliness, aiding them readily to conceive a hope of better things. Some it is often more advantageous to conquer— by others to be overcome, and to praise or deprecate, in one case wealth and power, in another poverty and failure." - Oration 2, 31-32

Maybe some people are indeed moved by strongly-worded polemics... but if so, it would only be a fraction of people, and it might cause more harm than good if/when you put words with such a harsh tone out there for an audience made up of many different types of people.

Offline Robb

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #472 on: January 27, 2010, 03:22:03 AM »
Oh man, I LIVED through the traditional Catholic version of "Get thee behind..."  It really did a number on both my spiritual and mental mindsets. 

Religion is good, holy, and pure, but fundamentalism isn't.  I'd avoid all such ideologies and the people who advocate them for the sake of both your mind and soul.
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #473 on: January 27, 2010, 05:18:44 AM »
Quote
St john Chrysostom, St Gregory the Great and St Basil the Great, are some of the greatest, builders of the church (the real church, not the corrupt roman one).

What? St. Gregory the Great, that lover of papal supremacy? Anathema!  :P

What?! Last time I checked Gregory the Great was one of the major opponents of papal supremacy.

Here's one of the things that popped up for me in a Google search, which has some quotes such as the following from St. Gregory:

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."

You should probably read up more on Gregory the Great. Elsewhere he explicitly stated that he believed that there were three Petrine sees: Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch.
He did. But he also often referenced the very special perogatives of his see.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #474 on: January 27, 2010, 06:39:02 AM »
I feel like ive aged about 50 years since my OD
Glory to God you are here and able to talk to us!
Someone was praying for you.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #475 on: January 27, 2010, 07:20:07 AM »

Here's one of the things that popped up for me in a Google search, which has some quotes such as the following from St. Gregory:

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."

Pope Saint Gregory the Great believed that the Blessed Peter had established
three Petrine Sees of equal authority - Rome, Alexandria, Antioch.

This Triptarchy existed prior to the now familiar Pentarchy, and it is connected
with a belief in a Petrine foundation for each of these three major Sees.


Note well what the Pope says here in his letter to Eulogius of Alexandria:

1. The parts where the Pope speaks of Alexandria and Antioch sharing
the keys with Rome

2. The parts where the Pope speaks of the equality of Rome and
Alexandria and Antioch

3. The parts where the Pope says that all three of these Sees form one
See of Peter over which the three bishops preside.

-oOo-

St Gregory I, Pope of Rome, Epistle XL, writing to Pope Eulogius
Patriarch of Alexandria.

"Your most sweet Holiness [Eulogius of Alexandria] has spoken
much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, Prince
of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the
persons of his successors.

"And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy, not only in the
dignity of such as preside, but even in the number of such as stand.
But I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to
me about Peter's chair who occupies Peter's chair. …And to him it is
said by the voice of the Truth, To thee I will give the keys of the
kingdom of heaven (Matth. xvi. 19). And again it is said to him, And
when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren (xxii. 32). And once
more, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me? Feed my sheep (Joh. xxi.
17).

Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the
principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has
grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one.

For he himself [Peter] exalted the See in which he deigned even to
rest and end the present life [Rome]. He himself adorned the See to
which he sent his disciple as evangelist [Alexandria]. He himself
established the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for
seven years [Antioch]. Since then it is the See of one, and one See,
over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever
good I hear of you, this I impute to myself.”

 (Book VII, Epistle XL)

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #476 on: January 27, 2010, 07:43:39 AM »
EDIT--Hmm, well I've decided to edit this, so as not to offend anyone. Suffice to say, both sides seem able to bring forth statements of St. Gregory to evidence their position... so...
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 08:10:50 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline Mickey

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #477 on: January 27, 2010, 09:52:52 AM »
personally have never felt myself marginalized by attending an ethnic parish.

On the contrary--it is one of the aspects of Holy Orthodoxy that draws me to the Church. It is a true universality. Of course, I understand that this can be abused, (by the cradles or the converts), but my experience has been glorious.  At my Antiochian Church there is a true melting pot.  :)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #478 on: January 27, 2010, 09:56:06 AM »
Quote
St john Chrysostom, St Gregory the Great and St Basil the Great, are some of the greatest, builders of the church (the real church, not the corrupt roman one).

What? St. Gregory the Great, that lover of papal supremacy? Anathema!  :P

What?! Last time I checked Gregory the Great was one of the major opponents of papal supremacy.

Here's one of the things that popped up for me in a Google search, which has some quotes such as the following from St. Gregory:

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."

You should probably read up more on Gregory the Great. Elsewhere he explicitly stated that he believed that there were three Petrine sees: Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch.
He did. But he also often referenced the very special perogatives of his see.
Like infallibility? Does Pastor Aeternus speak of Antioch and Alexandria?  Does Lumen Gentium place the Church under the three heads?
Pope St. Gregory seems to have erred by innovating the interpretation of Matthew
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25592.0.html
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #479 on: January 27, 2010, 10:32:08 AM »
Quote
St john Chrysostom, St Gregory the Great and St Basil the Great, are some of the greatest, builders of the church (the real church, not the corrupt roman one).

What? St. Gregory the Great, that lover of papal supremacy? Anathema!  :P

What?! Last time I checked Gregory the Great was one of the major opponents of papal supremacy.

Here's one of the things that popped up for me in a Google search, which has some quotes such as the following from St. Gregory:

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."

You should probably read up more on Gregory the Great. Elsewhere he explicitly stated that he believed that there were three Petrine sees: Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch.
He did. But he also often referenced the very special perogatives of his see.
Like infallibility? Does Pastor Aeternus speak of Antioch and Alexandria?  Does Lumen Gentium place the Church under the three heads?
Pope St. Gregory seems to have erred by innovating the interpretation of Matthew
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25592.0.html
I don't think he erred. There is a sense in which all bishops are equal. There is a sense in which all Patriarchs are equal. There is a sense in which all Petrine See's are equal. I have no problem with this, nor does my Church. We are not fundamentalists when it comes to the Fathers nor Church teaching.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Alonso_castillo

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #480 on: January 27, 2010, 10:40:58 AM »
¿What do you think?
¿What should we think?


¿ONE?, ¿HOLY?, ¡¿CATHOLIC?!
Not if one bases his definition of "one", "holy", and "catholic" purely on outward appearances.  However, despite the outward ¿ appearance of disunity?, we are still ¿one Church? in that we still preach one faith, the faith of the Apostles, and we still partake of one Eucharist in that someone from the Greek Archdiocese can travel to Moscow and receive Communion from the hand of a Russian priest.  At least we have enough of a catholic consciousness to recognize that the practice of having multiple bishops with parallel jurisdiction over the same geographical territory is a terrible violation of the canonical norm and are trying to find ways to remedy this.  But this situation does not cut to the core of our life as the Church, since it does not separate Christians at the very chalice of our Lord's Body and Blood.

I think that we didn´t read the same article.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #481 on: January 27, 2010, 10:44:07 AM »
Quote
St john Chrysostom, St Gregory the Great and St Basil the Great, are some of the greatest, builders of the church (the real church, not the corrupt roman one).

What? St. Gregory the Great, that lover of papal supremacy? Anathema!  :P

What?! Last time I checked Gregory the Great was one of the major opponents of papal supremacy.

Here's one of the things that popped up for me in a Google search, which has some quotes such as the following from St. Gregory:

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."

You should probably read up more on Gregory the Great. Elsewhere he explicitly stated that he believed that there were three Petrine sees: Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch.
He did. But he also often referenced the very special perogatives of his see.
Like infallibility? Does Pastor Aeternus speak of Antioch and Alexandria?  Does Lumen Gentium place the Church under the three heads?
Pope St. Gregory seems to have erred by innovating the interpretation of Matthew
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25592.0.html
I don't think he erred.
Of course you don't. That would ruin the whole theory.

Quote
There is a sense in which all bishops are equal.

He wasn't saying all bishops are equal (but they are, the episcopacy being an ontological whole): he was quite explicit in saying that the EP was not the equal of the Pope of Rome, the Pope of Alexandria nor the Patriarch of Antioch.

Quote
There is a sense in which all Patriarchs are equal.

He wasn't saying all patriarch are equal (and they aren't as equal as bishops are, primacy being a creation of the Church, and not of divine origin): he was quite explicit in saying that the EP was not the equal of the Pope of Rome, the Pope of Alexandria nor the Patriarch of Antioch.
 
Quote
There is a sense in which all Petrine See's are equal.

And the non-Petrine sees?  And Jerusalem?

Quote
I have no problem with this, nor does my Church. We are not fundamentalists when it comes to the Fathers nor Church teaching.
LOL.  Pastor Aeternus says otherwise.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alonso_castillo

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #482 on: January 27, 2010, 10:57:55 AM »
Pagan Rome + Christian persecution + Roman Catholicism  +  Papal inquisitions (more Christian murders) + Ecumenism = NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE KINGDOM OF THE ANTI-CHRIST  Nothing New Under the Sun
There. I have fixed it. :)
We must not operate either out of fear nor panic, as I see most people with "apocalyptic" ideas do. Why should the Christians in the days of the Antichrist do anything different to the Christians of the first, second, third.......21st centuries? Our duty is is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body and to love our neighbour as ourself. Nothing in this duty of ours changes even if we are standing in the throne-room of the Antichrist himself. Our duty as Christians is still the same no matter what, so why the panic? And if we are weak and experience panic in difficult situations, we should at least try not to communicate our panic to others.




Pope visit synogonue?!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/17/italy.pope.synagigue/index.html

Something really fishy here.
2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.



Mt 9:35
Acts 13:5,14
Acts 14:1
Acts 17: 1-2,17
Acts 18:1,4-6
Acts 18:19
Acts 19:1,8

Hope this is enough for you to know that the Gospel needs to be proclamed among those who do not believe.



Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #483 on: January 27, 2010, 11:00:16 AM »
Quote
St john Chrysostom, St Gregory the Great and St Basil the Great, are some of the greatest, builders of the church (the real church, not the corrupt roman one).

What? St. Gregory the Great, that lover of papal supremacy? Anathema!  :P

What?! Last time I checked Gregory the Great was one of the major opponents of papal supremacy.

Here's one of the things that popped up for me in a Google search, which has some quotes such as the following from St. Gregory:

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."

You should probably read up more on Gregory the Great. Elsewhere he explicitly stated that he believed that there were three Petrine sees: Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch.
He did. But he also often referenced the very special perogatives of his see.
Like infallibility? Does Pastor Aeternus speak of Antioch and Alexandria?  Does Lumen Gentium place the Church under the three heads?
Pope St. Gregory seems to have erred by innovating the interpretation of Matthew
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25592.0.html
I don't think he erred.
Of course you don't. That would ruin the whole theory.

Quote
There is a sense in which all bishops are equal.

He wasn't saying all bishops are equal (but they are, the episcopacy being an ontological whole): he was quite explicit in saying that the EP was not the equal of the Pope of Rome, the Pope of Alexandria nor the Patriarch of Antioch.

Quote
There is a sense in which all Patriarchs are equal.

He wasn't saying all patriarch are equal (and they aren't as equal as bishops are, primacy being a creation of the Church, and not of divine origin): he was quite explicit in saying that the EP was not the equal of the Pope of Rome, the Pope of Alexandria nor the Patriarch of Antioch.
 
Quote
There is a sense in which all Petrine See's are equal.

And the non-Petrine sees?  And Jerusalem?

Quote
I have no problem with this, nor does my Church. We are not fundamentalists when it comes to the Fathers nor Church teaching.
LOL.  Pastor Aeternus says otherwise.
You think that because its always a zero sum game with you guys. Just because the Pope has universal jurisdiction does not mean that in another sense he is not equal to other Bishops. The pope does recieve another level of Holy Orders above that of a bishop. Thus in his Orders, he is the on the same level as the other Bishops. The difference is only in the fact that his See has special responsibilities and rights.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #484 on: January 27, 2010, 11:01:25 AM »
Pagan Rome + Christian persecution + Roman Catholicism  +  Papal inquisitions (more Christian murders) + Ecumenism = NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE KINGDOM OF THE ANTI-CHRIST  Nothing New Under the Sun
There. I have fixed it. :)
We must not operate either out of fear nor panic, as I see most people with "apocalyptic" ideas do. Why should the Christians in the days of the Antichrist do anything different to the Christians of the first, second, third.......21st centuries? Our duty is is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body and to love our neighbour as ourself. Nothing in this duty of ours changes even if we are standing in the throne-room of the Antichrist himself. Our duty as Christians is still the same no matter what, so why the panic? And if we are weak and experience panic in difficult situations, we should at least try not to communicate our panic to others.




Pope visit synogonue?!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/17/italy.pope.synagigue/index.html

Something really fishy here.
2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.



Mt 9:35
Acts 13:5,14
Acts 14:1
Acts 17: 1-2,17
Acts 18:1,4-6
Acts 18:19
Acts 19:1,8

Hope this is enough for you to know that the Gospel needs to be proclamed among those who do not believe.




Alonso, they have a different theory of unity than we do.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline ignatius

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #485 on: January 27, 2010, 11:06:17 AM »
Alonso, they have a different theory of unity than we do.

Yes, it has something to do with being of one mind.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Alonso_castillo

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #486 on: January 27, 2010, 11:11:38 AM »
The goal of this whole ecumenism is to bring about a new world order.

I hate to break it to you but the merger of various Churches and faiths is not going to bring about a "new world order".  We've seen various Churches and religion institutions continue to lose influence over the general public (with certain exceptions), and this is likely a trend that will continue.  Even in a world with a "First Amalgamated Church" like in Futurama, it would not have the ability to form some all-powerful collective that will bring about some sort of apocalypse.  It would pontificate to a public that really wasn't all too interested in listening.

With not a commun gospel I may agree with you, but the current problem and scandal of christianity is that when in mission lands the Gospel is proclamed by a catholic missionary then a protestant missionary pases anathemises catholic preacher, and then a Mormon, and an adventist. (orthodox don't use to mission so much). That is a scandal that goes against Christ. Division of christianity is the key weapon of Satan against God's will, to delay the inevitable conversion of the entire world to The Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, Catholicism and Orthodoxy need to unite to create a comun strategy of mission to the entire world, even to muslims. We need a comun strategy to show muslims how false is Mahoma as a prophet of the true God. and why Qur'an goes against the Bible. and the teaching of the old testament and the new testament. Bible Vs Qur'an. that is going to be the key of the strategy, despite all the saints we believe, the only way to convert muslims is to show them how far is Qur'an from the real teachings of the only God taught in the Bible.
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in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #487 on: January 27, 2010, 11:15:38 AM »
Quote
St john Chrysostom, St Gregory the Great and St Basil the Great, are some of the greatest, builders of the church (the real church, not the corrupt roman one).

What? St. Gregory the Great, that lover of papal supremacy? Anathema!  :P

What?! Last time I checked Gregory the Great was one of the major opponents of papal supremacy.

Here's one of the things that popped up for me in a Google search, which has some quotes such as the following from St. Gregory:

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."

You should probably read up more on Gregory the Great. Elsewhere he explicitly stated that he believed that there were three Petrine sees: Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch.
He did. But he also often referenced the very special perogatives of his see.
Like infallibility? Does Pastor Aeternus speak of Antioch and Alexandria?  Does Lumen Gentium place the Church under the three heads?
Pope St. Gregory seems to have erred by innovating the interpretation of Matthew
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25592.0.html
I don't think he erred.
Of course you don't. That would ruin the whole theory.

Quote
There is a sense in which all bishops are equal.

He wasn't saying all bishops are equal (but they are, the episcopacy being an ontological whole): he was quite explicit in saying that the EP was not the equal of the Pope of Rome, the Pope of Alexandria nor the Patriarch of Antioch.

Quote
There is a sense in which all Patriarchs are equal.

He wasn't saying all patriarch are equal (and they aren't as equal as bishops are, primacy being a creation of the Church, and not of divine origin): he was quite explicit in saying that the EP was not the equal of the Pope of Rome, the Pope of Alexandria nor the Patriarch of Antioch.
 
Quote
There is a sense in which all Petrine See's are equal.

And the non-Petrine sees?  And Jerusalem?

Quote
I have no problem with this, nor does my Church. We are not fundamentalists when it comes to the Fathers nor Church teaching.
LOL.  Pastor Aeternus says otherwise.
You think that because its always a zero sum game with you guys. Just because the Pope has universal jurisdiction does not mean that in another sense he is not equal to other Bishops. The pope does recieve another level of Holy Orders above that of a bishop. Thus in his Orders, he is the on the same level as the other Bishops. The difference is only in the fact that his See has special responsibilities and rights.

This is one of the reasons why the Vatican is exposed: every level of the priesthood, from Royal to Bishop, is conveyed by a Holy Mystery/sacrament.  But the papacy, supposedly the highest level of the priesthood is not.  What grace comes without a blessing? No matter how many, a group of the laity cannot make a deacon, a colleciton of deacons cannot ordain a priest, a council of priest cannot consecrate a bishop.  As Hebrews testifies, the higher always blesses the lower, and so no curia or college of cardinals can make a pope so concieved by the Vatican.

That, btw, is the difference between Orthodoxy and the Vatican: our patriarchs derive their origin and authority from their synod.  The Vatican claims to derive its authority from keys given to St. Peter by Christ.  Too bad they haven't claimed that as the basis of their authority since the founding of the Roman Church, but had to wait until St.Gregory came up with it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alonso_castillo

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #488 on: January 27, 2010, 11:30:46 AM »
Pagan Rome + Christian persecution + Roman Catholicism  +  Papal inquisitions (more Christian murders) + Ecumenism = NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE KINGDOM OF THE ANTI-CHRIST  Nothing New Under the Sun
There. I have fixed it. :)
We must not operate either out of fear nor panic, as I see most people with "apocalyptic" ideas do. Why should the Christians in the days of the Antichrist do anything different to the Christians of the first, second, third.......21st centuries? Our duty is is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body and to love our neighbour as ourself. Nothing in this duty of ours changes even if we are standing in the throne-room of the Antichrist himself. Our duty as Christians is still the same no matter what, so why the panic? And if we are weak and experience panic in difficult situations, we should at least try not to communicate our panic to others.




Pope visit synogonue?!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/17/italy.pope.synagigue/index.html

Something really fishy here.
2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.



Mt 9:35
Acts 13:5,14
Acts 14:1
Acts 17: 1-2,17
Acts 18:1,4-6
Acts 18:19
Acts 19:1,8

Hope this is enough for you to know that the Gospel needs to be proclamed among those who do not believe.




Alonso, they have a different theory of unity than we do.

Communion in the early church is very clear in the Acts of Apostles:

Acts 2:44-47

Quote
44 All who believed were together and had all things in common;
45 they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one's need.
46 Every day they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple area and to breaking bread in their homes. They ate their meals with exultation and sincerity of heart,
47 praising God and enjoying favor with all the people. And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.



Communion of material and spiritual goods is the sign of the early church. in the front of which was St Peter. Catholicism is the church that trough the Pope as succesor of St Peter, holds communion of material and spiritual goods all around the World. If Orthodoxy thinks that their communion is rather intelectual than absolut, there we see the principle of schism. I really feel sorrow of needs of Patriarch Bartholomew I, who has been left alone by the ""Communion"" of orthodoxy, as we can read in the full article I've posted, Russian orthodoxy disputes the primacy of the church to Constantinople and no russian cn see Patriarch Bartholomew as higher than Patriarch Kiril.

Then the so disputed and rejected cannon 28 in the early church by Rome. now turns against those who promoted it, in the hand of Russia.


Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline Alonso_castillo

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #489 on: January 27, 2010, 11:40:04 AM »
Because ROMAN CATHOLICISM IS A HERETICAL CHURCH, A FAKE, A FRAUD, A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING

ITS NOT REAL CHRISTIANITY

ONLY ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY IS REAL CHRISTIANITY, AND EVEN THAT IS AFLAME FROM HAVING COMMUNION WITH HERETICS (THE 'HOLY' POPE).

Pope visit synogonue?!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/17/italy.pope.synagigue/index.html

Something really fishy here.
2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

So let me understand what you are saying here... because the Pope 'visited' a Jewish Synagogue that he is 'yoked'... knowing that this passage is out of context could you share with us the original intent of this text?

The pope is the one who has united all religions into one global religion, which is the religion of the anti-christ.
Ecumenism is one of the foundations for the NWO


If the pope was able to call upon some, not all, religious leaders, is to stablish clearly that Religion shall not be cause of war. though differences are real among religions, the conversion of people from one religion to other must be without violence, as it happens in Turkey, Israel, India, Pakistan, etc.

It is not to reject each one beliefts but to show them peacefully in freedom. in short, Blasfemy laws, and religious prosecutions should be ended.

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #490 on: January 27, 2010, 11:45:30 AM »
The goal of this whole ecumenism is to bring about a new world order.

I hate to break it to you but the merger of various Churches and faiths is not going to bring about a "new world order".  We've seen various Churches and religion institutions continue to lose influence over the general public (with certain exceptions), and this is likely a trend that will continue.  Even in a world with a "First Amalgamated Church" like in Futurama, it would not have the ability to form some all-powerful collective that will bring about some sort of apocalypse.  It would pontificate to a public that really wasn't all too interested in listening.

With not a commun gospel I may agree with you, but the current problem and scandal of christianity is that when in mission lands the Gospel is proclamed by a catholic missionary then a protestant missionary pases anathemises catholic preacher, and then a Mormon, and an adventist. (orthodox don't use to mission so much). That is a scandal that goes against Christ. Division of christianity is the key weapon of Satan against God's will, to delay the inevitable conversion of the entire world to The Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, Catholicism and Orthodoxy need to unite to create a comun strategy of mission to the entire world, even to muslims. We need a comun strategy to show muslims how false is Mahoma as a prophet of the true God. and why Qur'an goes against the Bible. and the teaching of the old testament and the new testament. Bible Vs Qur'an. that is going to be the key of the strategy, despite all the saints we believe, the only way to convert muslims is to show them how far is Qur'an from the real teachings of the only God taught in the Bible.
Unfortunately, Orthodoxy is not defined by the lowest common denominator among those who claim Christ, but by what Christ taught.

On converting Muslims, btw there is a thread in Politics on Obama helping (or being urged to) help Maher Gowhari and his daughter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tFb9evsrC4

This is only the tip of the iceberg, e.g.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niVL_LQEpco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGXq8pReUq8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Eldxkk5ZZw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dcaLQa97PA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdVnILalpeo

On the son of Hamas who converted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV_Vs6fgbxo

And in Iraq (Egypt and Palestine aren't the other place):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuf_NSE0hYg

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #491 on: January 27, 2010, 11:55:56 AM »
Quote
St john Chrysostom, St Gregory the Great and St Basil the Great, are some of the greatest, builders of the church (the real church, not the corrupt roman one).

What? St. Gregory the Great, that lover of papal supremacy? Anathema!  :P

What?! Last time I checked Gregory the Great was one of the major opponents of papal supremacy.

Here's one of the things that popped up for me in a Google search, which has some quotes such as the following from St. Gregory:

"To all who know the Gospel it is clear that by the words of our Lord the care of the whole Church was committed to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles... Behold, he received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power to bind and loose was given to him, and the care and principality of the entire church was committed to him..."

You should probably read up more on Gregory the Great. Elsewhere he explicitly stated that he believed that there were three Petrine sees: Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch.
He did. But he also often referenced the very special perogatives of his see.
Like infallibility? Does Pastor Aeternus speak of Antioch and Alexandria?  Does Lumen Gentium place the Church under the three heads?
Pope St. Gregory seems to have erred by innovating the interpretation of Matthew
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25592.0.html
I don't think he erred.
Of course you don't. That would ruin the whole theory.

Quote
There is a sense in which all bishops are equal.

He wasn't saying all bishops are equal (but they are, the episcopacy being an ontological whole): he was quite explicit in saying that the EP was not the equal of the Pope of Rome, the Pope of Alexandria nor the Patriarch of Antioch.

Quote
There is a sense in which all Patriarchs are equal.

He wasn't saying all patriarch are equal (and they aren't as equal as bishops are, primacy being a creation of the Church, and not of divine origin): he was quite explicit in saying that the EP was not the equal of the Pope of Rome, the Pope of Alexandria nor the Patriarch of Antioch.
 
Quote
There is a sense in which all Petrine See's are equal.

And the non-Petrine sees?  And Jerusalem?

Quote
I have no problem with this, nor does my Church. We are not fundamentalists when it comes to the Fathers nor Church teaching.
LOL.  Pastor Aeternus says otherwise.
You think that because its always a zero sum game with you guys. Just because the Pope has universal jurisdiction does not mean that in another sense he is not equal to other Bishops. The pope does recieve another level of Holy Orders above that of a bishop. Thus in his Orders, he is the on the same level as the other Bishops. The difference is only in the fact that his See has special responsibilities and rights.

This is one of the reasons why the Vatican is exposed: every level of the priesthood, from Royal to Bishop, is conveyed by a Holy Mystery/sacrament.  But the papacy, supposedly the highest level of the priesthood is not.  What grace comes without a blessing? No matter how many, a group of the laity cannot make a deacon, a colleciton of deacons cannot ordain a priest, a council of priest cannot consecrate a bishop.  As Hebrews testifies, the higher always blesses the lower, and so no curia or college of cardinals can make a pope so concieved by the Vatican.

That, btw, is the difference between Orthodoxy and the Vatican: our patriarchs derive their origin and authority from their synod.  The Vatican claims to derive its authority from keys given to St. Peter by Christ.  Too bad they haven't claimed that as the basis of their authority since the founding of the Roman Church, but had to wait until St.Gregory came up with it.
It's interesting that you insist on stating that we believe that the Papacy is the highest level of the priesthood when it is no such thing. It is the same level as that of a Bishop. And the idea of Papal authority being derived from Peter goes all the way back to St. Iraneaus of Lyons.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #492 on: January 27, 2010, 12:08:49 PM »
Pagan Rome + Christian persecution + Roman Catholicism  +  Papal inquisitions (more Christian murders) + Ecumenism = NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE KINGDOM OF THE ANTI-CHRIST  Nothing New Under the Sun
There. I have fixed it. :)
We must not operate either out of fear nor panic, as I see most people with "apocalyptic" ideas do. Why should the Christians in the days of the Antichrist do anything different to the Christians of the first, second, third.......21st centuries? Our duty is is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body and to love our neighbour as ourself. Nothing in this duty of ours changes even if we are standing in the throne-room of the Antichrist himself. Our duty as Christians is still the same no matter what, so why the panic? And if we are weak and experience panic in difficult situations, we should at least try not to communicate our panic to others.




Pope visit synogonue?!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/17/italy.pope.synagigue/index.html

Something really fishy here.
2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.



Mt 9:35
Acts 13:5,14
Acts 14:1
Acts 17: 1-2,17
Acts 18:1,4-6
Acts 18:19
Acts 19:1,8

Hope this is enough for you to know that the Gospel needs to be proclamed among those who do not believe.




Alonso, they have a different theory of unity than we do.

Communion in the early church is very clear in the Acts of Apostles:

Acts 2:44-47

Quote
44 All who believed were together and had all things in common;
45 they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one's need.
46 Every day they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple area and to breaking bread in their homes. They ate their meals with exultation and sincerity of heart,
47 praising God and enjoying favor with all the people. And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.



Communion of material and spiritual goods is the sign of the early church. in the front of which was St Peter. Catholicism is the church that trough the Pope as succesor of St Peter, holds communion of material and spiritual goods all around the World.

Never seen primitive communism seen as a basis of the Vatican's supremacy. The Catholic Church is against communism.

Quote
If Orthodoxy thinks that their communion is rather intelectual than absolut, there we see the principle of schism.

And if you think unity comes by tyranny, yes, we have a difference.


Quote
I really feel sorrow of needs of Patriarch Bartholomew I,

Are those crocodile tears?

http://scribalterror.blogs.com/scribal_terror/images/2007/10/10/croc.jpg


Quote
who has been left alone by the ""Communion"" of orthodoxy,

What ARE you talking about?  That we don't kiss the EP's slipper?

http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/PopeKissing_Feet.JPG/250px-PopeKissing_Feet.JPG

Quote
as we can read in the full article I've posted,

Which article are you talking about?

Quote
Russian orthodoxy disputes the primacy of the church to Constantinople and no russian cn see Patriarch Bartholomew as higher than Patriarch Kiril.

Care to explain then how Patriarch Kiril, whenever he celebrates DL, commemorates EP Bartholomew first?

Quote
Then the so disputed and rejected cannon 28 in the early church by Rome. now turns against those who promoted it, in the hand of Russia.
You are aware that the Vatican accepted canon 28 definitively at its Lateran IV council, no?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #493 on: January 27, 2010, 12:18:55 PM »
It's interesting that you insist on stating that we believe that the Papacy is the highest level of the priesthood when it is no such thing. It is the same level as that of a Bishop.

Are all bishops infallible?

Can the bishop of Sao Paolo act without the bishop of Mexico City?  Can either act without the bishop of Rome? ::)

READ Lumen Gentium:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11171.msg299926.html#msg299926
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20203.msg302575.html#msg302575




Quote
And the idea of Papal authority being derived from Peter goes all the way back to St. Iraneaus of Lyons.
Quote please?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 12:19:18 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #494 on: January 27, 2010, 01:31:38 PM »
It's interesting that you insist on stating that we believe that the Papacy is the highest level of the priesthood when it is no such thing. It is the same level as that of a Bishop.

Are all bishops infallible?

Can the bishop of Sao Paolo act without the bishop of Mexico City?  Can either act without the bishop of Rome? ::)

READ Lumen Gentium:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11171.msg299926.html#msg299926
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20203.msg302575.html#msg302575




Quote
And the idea of Papal authority being derived from Peter goes all the way back to St. Iraneaus of Lyons.
Quote please?
First, the Pope's extraordinary authority does not come from his ordination, so he is not a higher level of priest. And for Iraneaus of Lyons, we have debated the quote ad nauseam about how all must be in agreement/communion with Rome because of her superior origin, and the orgin it describes is Sts. Peter and Paul. Do we have to go down this road again?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.