OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 02, 2014, 07:33:19 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Ecumenism (opinion on news)  (Read 39746 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2010, 02:24:17 AM »


The Vatican has excluded the Eastern Catholic Churches from participation in the talks with the Orthodox.

Sounds like a good idea. They've gone quite kooky.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2010, 02:26:57 AM »


2)  Rome is afraid because, when push comes to shove,  Eastern Catholics may side with the Orthodox against Rome om some doctrinal matters.  This would spotlight the lack of doctrinal unity in the modern Catholic Church.

Bingo!
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2010, 02:30:09 AM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


To me it sounds quite fundamentalistic, But I assume that is the orthodox way, they have lost so much,  we just have to remember the case of Irineios patriarch of Jerusalen destituted because selling lands to jews.

Wonder what would happen if Pope Benedict tried to sell off a piece of Vatican City State to MacDonald's in a secret deal?
Pope can do whatever he wants with the things there are in Vatican, he is the head of state. Just to give you an example, Pope John Paul II gave back St Gregory theologos and St John Chrisostomos bones to Bartolomeo, Do you think that all the church was happy of that?, no, for some catholics, Gregory and John where catholics when they lived, yet orthodoxy fell into cesaropapism,

LOL.  The pope is head of state, but we have fallen into caesaropapism.


Quote
the very John Chrisostomos suffered for that reason. to many catholics those bones should have been given back only after reunification, not before, but for some others to be moreclose to Patriarch and to help him to convence you to be more positive to us, we needed to give back those bones, yet we have not reached full communion.

now, was the faith of orthodoxy under risk because of lands?, I don't think so, but you behave as if it were.
Ahem, how did you get the relics of St. John Chrysostom again? Roll Eyes
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2010, 02:39:15 AM »


Ahem, how did you get the relics of St. John Chrysostom again? Roll Eyes


The horrendous story of how these relics and many others were taken to the West


The Sack of Constantinople
By Nicholas A. Cooke

http://aggreen.net/church_history/1204_sack.html
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2010, 02:40:35 AM »

Perhaps...

1)  Rome is afraid to include Eastern Catholics because things like that could go on happening

2)  Rome is afraid because, when push comes to shove,  Eastern Catholics may side with the Orthodox against Rome om some doctrinal matters.  This would spotlight the lack of doctrinal unity in the modern Catholic Church.
Well as you said, the only you know is not but a corner of the full picture, all other of your points are just mere speculation.

The real thing is that Orthodoxy requested to solve first the issue of Eastern Catholicism, before going any further, and Catholics through giving St John and St Gregory bones back to orthodoxy, made clear that we are sincere in our intensions. So orthodoxy no longer discussed about Eastern Catholics. And now they are discussing about how will papacy work in a Catholic Church that will also include Eastern Orthodoxy. The issue is that orthodoxy enjoys a lot its independency, not matter if it has caused and is causing much trouble between patriarchates, as Moscow and Constantinople issues about diaspora.

Because of course the Patriarchate of the West never had such problems.  What did you say about the French in the New World again?


Quote
We also have to take into account that Constantinople Patriarchate feels the holding of Rome as the head patriarchate of orthodoxy, not matter if it is a church of just 2500 christians in Istanbul, and Moscow is a 150 million Christians church. 

Only if after the Council of Eastern Orthodoxy, Moscow reaches the head place of orthodoxy and Constantinople agrees, then the Catholics will speak with Russian Patriarchate as the head of orthodoxy. But by now Rome beholds Constantinople.

Which shows Rome still hasn't learned how the Church operates.  That was the Vatican's same mistake at Lyons and Florence.



Quote
Constantinople now understands a bit what Rome felt in 1054, Rome is the see of St Peter, of St Paul, of the original Church of Jerusalem brought to Rome by Titus in 70 AD. and yet Constantinople pretended to be the principal see of Christianity just because it was the capital of the empire.

So was Rome.  And Titus was an emperor.


Quote
Now Moscow is giving a taste of its own chocolate to Constantinople, defeating its primacy among orthodoxy and its potency over diaspora churches, Moscow climes to be the third and definitive Rome, no chance to any other to rice up.  Not matter if Constantinople was the see of many councils, and that Rome recognized it as second after itself before breaking.

The Vatican claims otherwise now, that it did not recognize it until Lateran IV (1215).


Quote
That is why Constantinople understands that the church needs a primus to set order, beyond expansionistic intensions of national churches.
We've lasted 2000 years without one.


Quote
That order in Catholicism is set by Rome, and we all either agree or disagree, we obey, something that doesn’t happen in Orthodoxy.
Doesn't happen under the Vatican either. Look at the mess after Vatican I and II.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2010, 10:47:14 AM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


To me it sounds quite fundamentalistic, But I assume that is the orthodox way, they have lost so much,  we just have to remember the case of Irineios patriarch of Jerusalen destituted because selling lands to jews.

Wonder what would happen if Pope Benedict tried to sell off a piece of Vatican City State to MacDonald's in a secret deal?
Pope can do whatever he wants with the things there are in Vatican, he is the head of state.

Not really.  He takes an oath before he is consecrated (to use the traditional term) as Supreme Pontiff that he will not dispose of any property.  Imagine the horror if a Pope appeared who sold off Saint Peter's and went back to Saint John Lateran and the Quirinal Palace.   The Pope's have lived in the Vatican for only 130 years. 

 
Quote
now, was the faith of orthodoxy under risk because of lands?, I don't think so, but you behave as if it were.

Well, probably the faith of Roman Catholicism would not be under risk if the Pope sold off the Vatican but....  laugh

I had no idea of that oath, but I don´t think that it is taken now a days, after all I gave you a good example of the pope giving something more important than many buildings, the bones of St John Chrisostomo and the bones of St Gregory Theologos. Their bones were in the altar of St Peter, near to St Peter himself bones. Was the pope anatemized?, was he expeled?, did catholicism was at risk? No.

About St Peter's Basilica, It happens that even before any basilica in Constantinople, the grounds of the new Basilica (500 years old) are a laberint of the first sanctuary dedicated to St Peter dated to the first century of our age. So what would be tha case to sell St Peter's basilica?, Would russian orthodoxy purchase it?, would Constantinople orthodoxy purchase it? who may purchase it?

Many treasures of the Vatican are sold continuously, in the same rate that they arrive as gifts from all over the world. in fact some times it happens that many lads who purchase those gifts, once they die they return those objects to Vatican. In fact the Vatican has many troubles in managing those treasures because they are very xpensive to keep renewed. You may have to remember that when Sixtine Chapel was renewed, it was paid by a Japanese company who covered the expenses.

Now, St John of Letran is the oldest and more important church of all christianity, no doubt, that is the see of the bishop of Rome, St Peter is not the Cathedral of Rome, it is St John of Letran. And in fact it is part of the Holly See, as State. the same that St Mary Major, and St Paul Fori le Mura (Out of Walls). However, St Peter's complex allows the pope to be closer to many of the sacred congregations of The Catholic Church.

It has been a question that I have been wondering an acurate answer, Why Pope don't sale St Peter's Basilica?. And the answer I have reached is that whom ever purchase that Basilica, he would be required  to sell it again, and if he does so, the one who purchase it would be required to sell it again. So, the real issue is that those who want Pope to sell St Peter's Basilica, wont be happy until there is no Basilica. sold in Parts for museums, as it happenes with Partenon in Athens. But, Would that be the will of God?

The question then turns to those who would like to Pope to sell St Peter's Basilica, What would be the intention prosecuted by selling St Peter's Basilica?, we will realize that the intention is to satisfy their hate to Papacy.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 10:51:50 AM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2010, 10:55:31 AM »

And now they are discussing about how will papacy work in a Catholic Church that will also include Eastern Orthodoxy.

There is no such thing as "papacy" in the Church of Christ.  It is an alien beast introduced by the Church of Rome.  There is NO element in the Church higher than a bishop and a synod of bishops. 

This "papacy" has to be deconstructed before real ecumenism can occur.


Saint Justin Popovich:

"...the Orthodox Church, in its nature and its dogmatically unchanging
constitution is episcopal and centered in the bishops. For the bishop and
the faithful gathered around him are the expression and
manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, especially in the Holy
Liturgy; the Church is Apostolic and Catholic only by virtue of its bishops,
insofar as they are the heads of true ecclesiastical
units, the dioceses.


"At the same time, the other, historically later and variable forms of
church organization of the Orthodox Church: the metropolias, archdioceses,
patriarchates, pentarchies, autocephalies, autonomies, etc., however many
there may be or shall be, cannot have and do not have a determining and
decisive significance in the conciliar system of the Orthodox Church.
Furthermore, they may constitute an obstacle in the correct functioning of
the conciliary principle if they obstruct and reject the episcopal character
and structure of the Church and of the Churches.


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."



Well, I just inform you, you may split to old calendarist if you like. But the bishop of Rome would be once again the Primus of the church, until our Lord Jesus comes back, including oriental churches.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 11:11:11 AM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2010, 10:58:36 AM »


The real thing is that Orthodoxy requested to solve first the issue of Eastern Catholicism, before going any further, and Catholics through giving St John and St Gregory bones back to orthodoxy, made clear that we are sincere in our intensions. So orthodoxy no longer discussed about Eastern Catholics.

None of the above makes real sense to me.  It seems to be saying that the Orthodox were bought off by the gift of the relics of Saint John Chrysostom and Saint Gregory.  A back room deal was done that the Orthodox would not talk about Eastern Catholicism if they got these relics back?   Huh

No, hte gift of Relics was to stablish that beyond Eastern Catholicism issues in orthodoxy, we catholics really want orthodoxy to come back to us.
Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2010, 11:00:26 AM »


Yes, ethnical tensions, so orthodox, nothing of catholicism is left there.

Orthodoxy is Catholicism.

Yes, sure....
Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2010, 11:03:56 AM »


2)  Rome is afraid because, when push comes to shove,  Eastern Catholics may side with the Orthodox against Rome om some doctrinal matters.  This would spotlight the lack of doctrinal unity in the modern Catholic Church.

Bingo!

Doctrinal matters are not under dicusion, but Primacy of the Bishop of Rome, and in fact Eastern Orthodoxy about this issue of primacy, is with The Catholic Church, other way they wuld be part of orthodox clergy, and they are not.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 11:09:55 AM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2010, 11:07:49 AM »


The real thing is that Orthodoxy requested to solve first the issue of Eastern Catholicism, before going any further, and Catholics through giving St John and St Gregory bones back to orthodoxy, made clear that we are sincere in our intensions. So orthodoxy no longer discussed about Eastern Catholics.

None of the above makes real sense to me.  It seems to be saying that the Orthodox were bought off by the gift of the relics of Saint John Chrysostom and Saint Gregory.  A back room deal was done that the Orthodox would not talk about Eastern Catholicism if they got these relics back?   Huh

No, hte gift of Relics was to stablish that beyond Eastern Catholicism issues in orthodoxy, we catholics really want orthodoxy to come back to us.

It is happening. I have every hope that we will see the Triumph of Catholicism in our time. Much in part to those Bishops who, listening to the Holy Spirit, elected Pope Benedict XVI to that office of Navigator of the Ark of Salvation, the Church. SI, MOLTO SI!!! VIVA IL PAPA BENDETTO XVI!

 http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/01/canizares-interview-part-i.html
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2010, 11:08:26 AM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


To me it sounds quite fundamentalistic, But I assume that is the orthodox way, they have lost so much,  we just have to remember the case of Irineios patriarch of Jerusalen destituted because selling lands to jews.

Wonder what would happen if Pope Benedict tried to sell off a piece of Vatican City State to MacDonald's in a secret deal?
Pope can do whatever he wants with the things there are in Vatican, he is the head of state. Just to give you an example, Pope John Paul II gave back St Gregory theologos and St John Chrisostomos bones to Bartolomeo, Do you think that all the church was happy of that?, no, for some catholics, Gregory and John where catholics when they lived, yet orthodoxy fell into cesaropapism,

LOL.  The pope is head of state, but we have fallen into caesaropapism.


Quote
the very John Chrisostomos suffered for that reason. to many catholics those bones should have been given back only after reunification, not before, but for some others to be moreclose to Patriarch and to help him to convence you to be more positive to us, we needed to give back those bones, yet we have not reached full communion.

now, was the faith of orthodoxy under risk because of lands?, I don't think so, but you behave as if it were.
Ahem, how did you get the relics of St. John Chrysostom again? Roll Eyes

Yes, Cesaropapism, relates Pope to the secular governor, while the Holly See guaranty the real independence of the Catholic church despite government in Italy, Is that the same independence that enjoys the Patriarchate of Constantinople?, Last I know is that Turks, don't allow any  one not Turkish to be the Patriarch of Istambul. Is that independency?, while the pope in The Catholic Church can be any one from whatever country, it happens the the Primus of orthodoxy just can be turkish.
Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2010, 11:24:19 AM »


Ahem, how did you get the relics of St. John Chrysostom again? Roll Eyes


The horrendous story of how these relics and many others were taken to the West


The Sack of Constantinople
By Nicholas A. Cooke

http://aggreen.net/church_history/1204_sack.html

At least we save them from turkish muslims who destroyed the church where they rested before they were taken to Rome. Now that it is more secure for them to go back to Constantinople, they are back.
Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,934


"My god is greater."


« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2010, 11:26:31 AM »

If the charge of caesaropapism were true, we would be united with Rome now, as many emperors supported this. The councils of Lyon and Florence were both backed by Byzantine emperors.

Why should the Orthodox re-unite with Rome, when you cannot even unite amongst yourselves? Why should we join a body that has been fragmenting and self-destructing since (at least) the 1960's, where bishops, priests, and laity openly question or reject Catholic dogmas with impunity? When I approach the chalice for communion, I can be reasonably sure that the persons in front of and behind me believe, as I do, that this is the genuine Body and Blood of Christ. The same can't be said in the average Catholic church.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2010, 11:43:19 AM »

If the charge of caesaropapism were true, we would be united with Rome now, as many emperors supported this. The councils of Lyon and Florence were both backed by Byzantine emperors.

If the Emperors couldn't curb the hatred of Greeks toward Latins in the Massacre of the Latins in 1182, how do you think that these weak Emperors would have any such influence on the people?

Quote
Why should the Orthodox re-unite with Rome, when you cannot even unite amongst yourselves? Why should we join a body that has been fragmenting and self-destructing since (at least) the 1960's, where bishops, priests, and laity openly question or reject Catholic dogmas with impunity? When I approach the chalice for communion, I can be reasonably sure that the persons in front of and behind me believe, as I do, that this is the genuine Body and Blood of Christ. The same can't be said in the average Catholic church.

The See of Rome could have asked the same question during the Iconoclasm... but it didn't.

You seem to look at division with a sense of joy. You seen to take pride that you are separate. Do you really think that you are apart from such sins? We are talking about individual sins and you are projecting that to a whole Church. My guess is, you and your tradition is not without it's own sins. Some sins are very visable, others are hidden from our eyes. Visable sin make us humble, while hidden sins make us prideful. Be careful that you don't fall in to such errors.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,934


"My god is greater."


« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2010, 12:01:49 PM »

If the charge of caesaropapism were true, we would be united with Rome now, as many emperors supported this. The councils of Lyon and Florence were both backed by Byzantine emperors.

If the Emperors couldn't curb the hatred of Greeks toward Latins in the Massacre of the Latins in 1182, how do you think that these weak Emperors would have any such influence on the people?

Unfortunate as it is, none of this contradicts my basic point: the charge of caesaropapism is nonsense.


Quote
Quote
Why should the Orthodox re-unite with Rome, when you cannot even unite amongst yourselves? Why should we join a body that has been fragmenting and self-destructing since (at least) the 1960's, where bishops, priests, and laity openly question or reject Catholic dogmas with impunity? When I approach the chalice for communion, I can be reasonably sure that the persons in front of and behind me believe, as I do, that this is the genuine Body and Blood of Christ. The same can't be said in the average Catholic church.

The See of Rome could have asked the same question during the Iconoclasm... but it didn't.

The See of Rome was still united to the Church then. In the East there were many martyrs and confessors against iconoclasm- the struggle was one of life or death. The Orthodox did not sit back and ignore iconoclasm- they fiercely opposed it from the beginning. The same can hardly be said for the post Vatican II madness. For example, has the Pope so much as uttered a peep against the Zoghbyites?

Quote
You seem to look at division with a sense of joy.

I admit it, I am happy when Truth is divided from Error and that my Church is not in communion with heresy.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 12:02:41 PM by Iconodule » Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2010, 12:10:37 PM »

And now they are discussing about how will papacy work in a Catholic Church that will also include Eastern Orthodoxy.

There is no such thing as "papacy" in the Church of Christ.  It is an alien beast introduced by the Church of Rome.  There is NO element in the Church higher than a bishop and a synod of bishops. 

This "papacy" has to be deconstructed before real ecumenism can occur.


Saint Justin Popovich:

"...the Orthodox Church, in its nature and its dogmatically unchanging
constitution is episcopal and centered in the bishops. For the bishop and
the faithful gathered around him are the expression and
manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, especially in the Holy
Liturgy; the Church is Apostolic and Catholic only by virtue of its bishops,
insofar as they are the heads of true ecclesiastical
units, the dioceses.


"At the same time, the other, historically later and variable forms of
church organization of the Orthodox Church: the metropolias, archdioceses,
patriarchates, pentarchies, autocephalies, autonomies, etc., however many
there may be or shall be, cannot have and do not have a determining and
decisive significance in the conciliar system of the Orthodox Church.
Furthermore, they may constitute an obstacle in the correct functioning of
the conciliary principle if they obstruct and reject the episcopal character
and structure of the Church and of the Churches.


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."



Well, I just inform you, you may split to old calendarist if you like. But the bishop of Rome would be once again the Primus of the church, until our Lord Jesus comes back, including oriental churches.
How can he once again be what he never was?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
John Larocque
Catholic
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox
Posts: 530


« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2010, 12:12:41 PM »

But who gets the bones of St. Nicholas?

This was a hilarious read, from an ultra-Protestant with a huge case of Pope Benedict Derangement Syndrome.  I think the piece was written before the Turkish government decided it wanted them.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=benedict1
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2010, 12:15:13 PM »


I admit it, I am happy when Truth is divided from Error and that my Church is not in communion with heresy.

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. ~ St. Paul

let us say that you have Truth... without Charity... it is nothing. Truth can't be separate from the Virtues of the Spirit, it is the Virtues of the Spirit. You think that because you belief you have Truth that you are better than the average Catholic... but you make it appear otherwise by your actions.

I don't see virtue in this.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,934


"My god is greater."


« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2010, 12:20:16 PM »

let us say that you have Truth... without Charity... it is nothing. Truth can't be separate from the Virtues of the Spirit, it is the Virtues of the Spirit. You think that because you belief you have Truth that you are better than the average Catholic...

If I ever said or implied anywhere here that I am personally "better" than the average Catholic, I sincerely apologize. Please indicate where I said such things so I can have these remarks removed.

 
Quote
but you make it appear otherwise by your actions.

I am humbled by your apparent clairvoyance in knowing what my "actions" are and being able to evaluate my personal spiritual life, despite the fact that you have never met me. You must be a very holy person.

Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2010, 12:22:04 PM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


To me it sounds quite fundamentalistic, But I assume that is the orthodox way, they have lost so much,  we just have to remember the case of Irineios patriarch of Jerusalen destituted because selling lands to jews.

Wonder what would happen if Pope Benedict tried to sell off a piece of Vatican City State to MacDonald's in a secret deal?
Pope can do whatever he wants with the things there are in Vatican, he is the head of state.

Not really.  He takes an oath before he is consecrated (to use the traditional term) as Supreme Pontiff that he will not dispose of any property.  Imagine the horror if a Pope appeared who sold off Saint Peter's and went back to Saint John Lateran and the Quirinal Palace.   The Pope's have lived in the Vatican for only 130 years. 

 
Quote
now, was the faith of orthodoxy under risk because of lands?, I don't think so, but you behave as if it were.

Well, probably the faith of Roman Catholicism would not be under risk if the Pope sold off the Vatican but....  laugh

I had no idea of that oath, but I don´t think that it is taken now a days, after all I gave you a good example of the pope giving something more important than many buildings, the bones of St John Chrisostomo and the bones of St Gregory Theologos. Their bones were in the altar of St Peter, near to St Peter himself bones. Was the pope anatemized?, was he expeled?, did catholicism was at risk? No.

About St Peter's Basilica, It happens that even before any basilica in Constantinople, the grounds of the new Basilica (500 years old) are a laberint of the first sanctuary dedicated to St Peter dated to the first century of our age. So what would be tha case to sell St Peter's basilica?, Would russian orthodoxy purchase it?, would Constantinople orthodoxy purchase it? who may purchase it?

Actually, since it is the Metochion/Titular Church of Constantinople, the EP (the pope's cathedra is in St. John of the Lateran).

Quote
Many treasures of the Vatican are sold continuously, in the same rate that they arrive as gifts from all over the world. in fact some times it happens that many lads who purchase those gifts, once they die they return those objects to Vatican. In fact the Vatican has many troubles in managing those treasures because they are very xpensive to keep renewed. You may have to remember that when Sixtine Chapel was renewed, it was paid by a Japanese company who covered the expenses.

Now, St John of Letran is the oldest and more important church of all christianity, no doubt,

No, this is:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/jerusalem-holy-sepulchre-pictures/edicule-c-damon-lynch.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Holy_Sepulchre

The most sacred spot on earth, and the Cathedral of the only cathedra called the Throne by the ancients (e.g. Eusebius, St. Epiphanios), the fullfillment on earth of the promise to David's throne.


Quote
that is the see of the bishop of Rome, St Peter is not the Cathedral of Rome, it is St John of Letran. And in fact it is part of the Holly See, as State. the same that St Mary Major, and St Paul Fori le Mura (Out of Walls). However, St Peter's complex allows the pope to be closer to many of the sacred congregations of The Catholic Church.

Which brings up the question: if St. Peter is the source of the supremacy, why is his see in Constantinople's Church?

Quote
It has been a question that I have been wondering an acurate answer, Why Pope don't sale St Peter's Basilica?. And the answer I have reached is that whom ever purchase that Basilica, he would be required  to sell it again, and if he does so, the one who purchase it would be required to sell it again. So, the real issue is that those who want Pope to sell St Peter's Basilica, wont be happy until there is no Basilica. sold in Parts for museums, as it happenes with Partenon in Athens. But, Would that be the will of God?

The question then turns to those who would like to Pope to sell St Peter's Basilica, What would be the intention prosecuted by selling St Peter's Basilica?, we will realize that the intention is to satisfy their hate to Papacy.
No, to return it to Orthodoxy, and put back those silver plaques on the doors with the unadulterated creed that Pope St. Leo III set up with the inscription «HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI» (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2010, 01:30:10 PM »

let us say that you have Truth... without Charity... it is nothing. Truth can't be separate from the Virtues of the Spirit, it is the Virtues of the Spirit. You think that because you belief you have Truth that you are better than the average Catholic...

If I ever said or implied anywhere here that I am personally "better" than the average Catholic, I sincerely apologize. Please indicate where I said such things so I can have these remarks removed.

 You said: "When I approach the chalice for communion, I can be reasonably sure that the persons in front of and behind me believe, as I do, that this is the genuine Body and Blood of Christ. The same can't be said in the average Catholic church."

You appear to have Clairvoyance and yet you accuse me of such?

Quote
I am humbled by your apparent clairvoyance in knowing what my "actions" are and being able to evaluate my personal spiritual life, despite the fact that you have never met me. You must be a very holy person.

Nor you I or the vast majority of the 'average' Catholic Laity and yet you seem fine passing your judgments on them.

If the Western Church is in such error I would dare say that the only genuine Christian position to hold toward us is pity. Yet you and many other Orthodox can't seem to muster anything but disdain and your repeated polemics.

I find this the must unappealing aspect of Orthodoxy in the English Speaking world.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2010, 01:39:39 PM »

If the charge of caesaropapism were true, we would be united with Rome now, as many emperors supported this. The councils of Lyon and Florence were both backed by Byzantine emperors.

If the Emperors couldn't curb the hatred of Greeks toward Latins in the Massacre of the Latins in 1182, how do you think that these weak Emperors would have any such influence on the people?

Quote
Why should the Orthodox re-unite with Rome, when you cannot even unite amongst yourselves? Why should we join a body that has been fragmenting and self-destructing since (at least) the 1960's, where bishops, priests, and laity openly question or reject Catholic dogmas with impunity? When I approach the chalice for communion, I can be reasonably sure that the persons in front of and behind me believe, as I do, that this is the genuine Body and Blood of Christ. The same can't be said in the average Catholic church.

The See of Rome could have asked the same question during the Iconoclasm... but it didn't.

You seem to look at division with a sense of joy. You seen to take pride that you are separate. Do you really think that you are apart from such sins? We are talking about individual sins and you are projecting that to a whole Church. My guess is, you and your tradition is not without it's own sins. Some sins are very visable, others are hidden from our eyes. Visable sin make us humble, while hidden sins make us prideful. Be careful that you don't fall in to such errors.

I totally agree.
Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,934


"My god is greater."


« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2010, 01:41:08 PM »

You said: "When I approach the chalice for communion, I can be reasonably sure that the persons in front of and behind me believe, as I do, that this is the genuine Body and Blood of Christ. The same can't be said in the average Catholic church."

You appear to have Clairvoyance and yet you accuse me of such?

I speak from experience. Most of my family is Catholic. Why, just this last Christmas, my uncle (a former Jesuit priest, still a practicing Catholic) explained to the family why he doesn't think Hell exists. Over and over again I have met Catholics who openly denied basic aspects of their church's morality, theology, etc. In fact, I don't think I've met a single Catholic in my life who doesn't do this. My experience has been shared by countless other observers. I don't need clairvoyance to grasp what is common knowledge.


Quote
If the Western Church is in such error I would dare say that the only genuine Christian position to hold toward us is pity. Yet you and many other Orthodox can't seem to muster anything but disdain and your repeated polemics.

I do pity them, but there are certain times when a smackdown is called for, as St. Nicholas demonstrated with Arius.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2010, 01:41:22 PM »

And now they are discussing about how will papacy work in a Catholic Church that will also include Eastern Orthodoxy.

There is no such thing as "papacy" in the Church of Christ.  It is an alien beast introduced by the Church of Rome.  There is NO element in the Church higher than a bishop and a synod of bishops. 

This "papacy" has to be deconstructed before real ecumenism can occur.


Saint Justin Popovich:


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."



Well, I just inform you, you may split to old calendarist if you like. But the bishop of Rome would be once again the Primus of the church, until our Lord Jesus comes back, including oriental churches.
How can he once again be what he never was?

Just you wait...
Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,934


"My god is greater."


« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2010, 01:42:20 PM »

And now they are discussing about how will papacy work in a Catholic Church that will also include Eastern Orthodoxy.

There is no such thing as "papacy" in the Church of Christ.  It is an alien beast introduced by the Church of Rome.  There is NO element in the Church higher than a bishop and a synod of bishops. 

This "papacy" has to be deconstructed before real ecumenism can occur.


Saint Justin Popovich:


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."



Well, I just inform you, you may split to old calendarist if you like. But the bishop of Rome would be once again the Primus of the church, until our Lord Jesus comes back, including oriental churches.
How can he once again be what he never was?

Just you wait...

Unless the Vatican has secretly mastered the powers of time travel, I'm not sure what you expect us to wait for...
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2010, 01:46:04 PM »

But who gets the bones of St. Nicholas?

This was a hilarious read, from an ultra-Protestant with a huge case of Pope Benedict Derangement Syndrome.  I think the piece was written before the Turkish government decided it wanted them.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=benedict1


St Nicolas, is in Bari, saved from muslims who were at the doorstep of Myra. and in Bari Orthodox can have their liturgy as well as Catholics. If Turkey wants those bones for tourist atraction, as many muslims do in jerusalen, profiting from christians, so be it, but, Would that allow to his Beatitude Bartholomew I to have more freedom for christians?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 01:46:43 PM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2010, 01:47:49 PM »


I admit it, I am happy when Truth is divided from Error and that my Church is not in communion with heresy.

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. ~ St. Paul

let us say that you have Truth... without Charity... it is nothing. Truth can't be separate from the Virtues of the Spirit, it is the Virtues of the Spirit. You think that because you belief you have Truth that you are better than the average Catholic... but you make it appear otherwise by your actions.

I don't see virtue in this.



I fully agree.
Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2010, 01:56:41 PM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


To me it sounds quite fundamentalistic, But I assume that is the orthodox way, they have lost so much,  we just have to remember the case of Irineios patriarch of Jerusalen destituted because selling lands to jews.

Wonder what would happen if Pope Benedict tried to sell off a piece of Vatican City State to MacDonald's in a secret deal?
Pope can do whatever he wants with the things there are in Vatican, he is the head of state.

Not really.  He takes an oath before he is consecrated (to use the traditional term) as Supreme Pontiff that he will not dispose of any property.  Imagine the horror if a Pope appeared who sold off Saint Peter's and went back to Saint John Lateran and the Quirinal Palace.   The Pope's have lived in the Vatican for only 130 years. 

 
Quote
now, was the faith of orthodoxy under risk because of lands?, I don't think so, but you behave as if it were.

Well, probably the faith of Roman Catholicism would not be under risk if the Pope sold off the Vatican but....  laugh

I had no idea of that oath, but I don´t think that it is taken now a days, after all I gave you a good example of the pope giving something more important than many buildings, the bones of St John Chrisostomo and the bones of St Gregory Theologos. Their bones were in the altar of St Peter, near to St Peter himself bones. Was the pope anatemized?, was he expeled?, did catholicism was at risk? No.

About St Peter's Basilica, It happens that even before any basilica in Constantinople, the grounds of the new Basilica (500 years old) are a laberint of the first sanctuary dedicated to St Peter dated to the first century of our age. So what would be tha case to sell St Peter's basilica?, Would russian orthodoxy purchase it?, would Constantinople orthodoxy purchase it? who may purchase it?

Actually, since it is the Metochion/Titular Church of Constantinople, the EP (the pope's cathedra is in St. John of the Lateran).

Quote
Many treasures of the Vatican are sold continuously, in the same rate that they arrive as gifts from all over the world. in fact some times it happens that many lads who purchase those gifts, once they die they return those objects to Vatican. In fact the Vatican has many troubles in managing those treasures because they are very xpensive to keep renewed. You may have to remember that when Sixtine Chapel was renewed, it was paid by a Japanese company who covered the expenses.

Now, St John of Letran is the oldest and more important church of all christianity, no doubt,

No, this is:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/jerusalem-holy-sepulchre-pictures/edicule-c-damon-lynch.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Holy_Sepulchre

The most sacred spot on earth, and the Cathedral of the only cathedra called the Throne by the ancients (e.g. Eusebius, St. Epiphanios), the fullfillment on earth of the promise to David's throne.


Quote
that is the see of the bishop of Rome, St Peter is not the Cathedral of Rome, it is St John of Letran. And in fact it is part of the Holly See, as State. the same that St Mary Major, and St Paul Fori le Mura (Out of Walls). However, St Peter's complex allows the pope to be closer to many of the sacred congregations of The Catholic Church.

Which brings up the question: if St. Peter is the source of the supremacy, why is his see in Constantinople's Church?

Quote
It has been a question that I have been wondering an acurate answer, Why Pope don't sale St Peter's Basilica?. And the answer I have reached is that whom ever purchase that Basilica, he would be required  to sell it again, and if he does so, the one who purchase it would be required to sell it again. So, the real issue is that those who want Pope to sell St Peter's Basilica, wont be happy until there is no Basilica. sold in Parts for museums, as it happenes with Partenon in Athens. But, Would that be the will of God?

The question then turns to those who would like to Pope to sell St Peter's Basilica, What would be the intention prosecuted by selling St Peter's Basilica?, we will realize that the intention is to satisfy their hate to Papacy.
No, to return it to Orthodoxy, and put back those silver plaques on the doors with the unadulterated creed that Pope St. Leo III set up with the inscription «HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI» (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith).

I will not answer you as you may deserve for I don't want to give arguments of further divisionism. In stead I invite you to look inside your heart, if there is not love to catholics, as we catholics love you, then you must question yourself if your understanding of the faith is the one that the Lord wanted us to have, or if it is more alike to the faith of farisaic lads.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 02:01:32 PM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2010, 01:58:13 PM »

And now they are discussing about how will papacy work in a Catholic Church that will also include Eastern Orthodoxy.

There is no such thing as "papacy" in the Church of Christ.  It is an alien beast introduced by the Church of Rome.  There is NO element in the Church higher than a bishop and a synod of bishops. 

This "papacy" has to be deconstructed before real ecumenism can occur.


Saint Justin Popovich:


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."



Well, I just inform you, you may split to old calendarist if you like. But the bishop of Rome would be once again the Primus of the church, until our Lord Jesus comes back, including oriental churches.
How can he once again be what he never was?

Just you wait...

Unless the Vatican has secretly mastered the powers of time travel, I'm not sure what you expect us to wait for...

Just wait and pray for the union of Christianity.
Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
John Larocque
Catholic
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox
Posts: 530


« Reply #75 on: January 18, 2010, 02:08:51 PM »

I had a talk with an Orthodox person who years ago, came across a quote from Justin Popovich, a saint of the Serbian church. He told me it shocked him when he first encountered it, but it obviously sank in with him.

There doesn't seem to be a direct version of it online but a Youtube poster encapsulated them this way:

>>
There were three Great falls in history: 1)The fall of Satan 2)The fall of Adam 3)The fall of the first Pope in 1054!
<<

The fall of the Roman Catholic church was described as one of the great falls.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #76 on: January 18, 2010, 02:18:56 PM »

I had a talk with an Orthodox person who years ago, came across a quote from Justin Popovich, a saint of the Serbian church. He told me it shocked him when he first encountered it, but it obviously sank in with him.

There doesn't seem to be a direct version of it online but a Youtube poster encapsulated them this way:

>>
There were three Great falls in history: 1)The fall of Satan 2)The fall of Adam 3)The fall of the first Pope in 1054!
<<

The fall of the Roman Catholic church was described as one of the great falls.

Unlike Fr Justin to exaggerate!   I would have thought that the loss of the Church of Carthage, of the Church of the East and of the great Churches of the Orient were greater calamities than the loss of Rome.
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2010, 02:52:04 PM »

You said: "When I approach the chalice for communion, I can be reasonably sure that the persons in front of and behind me believe, as I do, that this is the genuine Body and Blood of Christ. The same can't be said in the average Catholic church."

You appear to have Clairvoyance and yet you accuse me of such?

I speak from experience. Most of my family is Catholic. Why, just this last Christmas, my uncle (a former Jesuit priest, still a practicing Catholic) explained to the family why he doesn't think Hell exists. Over and over again I have met Catholics who openly denied basic aspects of their church's morality, theology, etc. In fact, I don't think I've met a single Catholic in my life who doesn't do this. My experience has been shared by countless other observers. I don't need clairvoyance to grasp what is common knowledge.

So you equate your family and the few inidividual Catholics you've met and dialogued with over the course of your life to yield the average Catholic out of a billion... ?

Your example, a former Jesuit Priest, who claims there to exist no Hell, in denial to the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Sacred Text is proof that Catholicism is not true?

You seem to equate a lack of devotion in your own family to be evidence that the Catholic Faith is not true. With such reasoning we might conclude that Christianity is false because Christians continue to sin.

I don't follow that such evidence necessarily produces such a conclusion. I can and do understand that for one, such as you, surrounded by such deviation from the Catholic Teaching that finding a more reverent community, perhaps in the Orthodox Church, might aid you with your own Faith but there are those who desire to fight for the Western Church and defend it's Teaching out of a devotion to God.

I am personally very drawn to the reverence of the Orthodox communities in my area but I am also familiar with this attitude which stems from the pride it produces in many converts and I fear it. I have enough sin on my own than to exacerbate it with such an attitude of superiority to others. What good would that do me?


Quote
If the Western Church is in such error I would dare say that the only genuine Christian position to hold toward us is pity. Yet you and many other Orthodox can't seem to muster anything but disdain and your repeated polemics.

I do pity them, but there are certain times when a smackdown is called for, as St. Nicholas demonstrated with Arius.
[/quote]

So you equate yourself with that Great Saint of Myrna? My how high you hold yourself and your own personal orthodoxy.

Discernment in beginnings is true knowledge of themselves; in intermediate souls, it is a spiritual sense that faultlessly distinguishes what is truly good from what is of nature and opposed to it; and in the perfect, it is the knowledge which they have within by Divine illumination, and which can enlighten with its lamp what is dark in others. ~ Step 26 St. John Climacus

You appear to claim the Divine illumination of the Perfect... do you trust yourself so much? I don't. I don't trust myself to condemn the Western Church. I don't trust myself to know what Truth is. Because I know myself to be a babe in Christ. My virtue is lacking in the fruits of the Spirit and in that I know I am unprofitable with the Grace that God has given me. You and many others seem to think can exercise such discernment but I do not.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Marc1152
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,647


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2010, 02:57:29 PM »

And now they are discussing about how will papacy work in a Catholic Church that will also include Eastern Orthodoxy.

There is no such thing as "papacy" in the Church of Christ.  It is an alien beast introduced by the Church of Rome.  There is NO element in the Church higher than a bishop and a synod of bishops. 

This "papacy" has to be deconstructed before real ecumenism can occur.


Saint Justin Popovich:


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."



Well, I just inform you, you may split to old calendarist if you like. But the bishop of Rome would be once again the Primus of the church, until our Lord Jesus comes back, including oriental churches.
How can he once again be what he never was?

Just you wait...

Unless the Vatican has secretly mastered the powers of time travel, I'm not sure what you expect us to wait for...

I have a time machine in my home but it only goes foward and at normal speed.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2010, 03:21:07 PM »

Unlike Fr Justin to exaggerate!   I would have thought that the loss of the Church of Carthage, of the Church of the East and of the great Churches of the Orient were greater calamities than the loss of Rome.

"In the history of the human race there have been three principle falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope. The principle characteristic of falling into sin is always the same: wanting to be good for one's own sake; wanting to be perfect for one's own sake; wanting to be God for one's own sake." - Fr. Justin Popovich, Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ, (Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies, 1994), p. 105
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #80 on: January 18, 2010, 03:24:15 PM »

I had a talk with an Orthodox person who years ago, came across a quote from Justin Popovich, a saint of the Serbian church.

Justin Popovich was my patron saint when I became Orthodox in 2001, and I sometimes refer to him as "St. Justin". Nonetheless, so far as I understand, it is perhaps imprecise to say that he is "a saint of the Serbian church," because only local veneration has been authorized, and he has not been officially glorified yet.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 03:25:53 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,268



« Reply #81 on: January 18, 2010, 05:11:48 PM »

Speaking as an individual who was born into the Roman Catholic and observing what is going on in it now, it seems that the Roman church has been going even further down hill since Vatican II (which was an abandonment of many traditional practices) and it seems that Rome is becoming more modernist with the times. Also Roman Catholics think that it is only the Papacy that divides us but how about other theological issues such as the filioque, Imaculate Conception, Purgatory, Mary being the Co-redemtrix and mediator of all graces, and others but those are the ones that come right to mind. I love Roman Catholics and pretty much my entire family is Roman Catholic and hey, I would love it if we could be in communion but I don't want this communion if it betrays the Faith established by the Holy Apostles which is Orthodoxy.
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #82 on: January 18, 2010, 05:39:19 PM »

Speaking as an individual who was born into the Roman Catholic and observing what is going on in it now, it seems that the Roman church has been going even further down hill since Vatican II (which was an abandonment of many traditional practices) and it seems that Rome is becoming more modernist with the times. Also Roman Catholics think that it is only the Papacy that divides us but how about other theological issues such as the filioque, Imaculate Conception, Purgatory, Mary being the Co-redemtrix and mediator of all graces, and others but those are the ones that come right to mind. I love Roman Catholics and pretty much my entire family is Roman Catholic and hey, I would love it if we could be in communion but I don't want this communion if it betrays the Faith established by the Holy Apostles which is Orthodoxy.

I'm Roman Catholic, and I don't think anything of the sort. I am well aware of the multiple claims of disagreement by Orthodox Polemicists their historical roots and the multiple attempts to address them.

With the accusation of Modernist... it seems you're well versed in the extreme conservative claims of the SSPX and others and those Orthodox Polemicists whom use those 'interior' arguments to make similar claims.

Ultimately, I think if the Catholic Church was so modernist, it wouldn't have elected Cardinal Ratzinger as Pope Benedict XVI. In that very act, there is hope for the West yet.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 05:39:44 PM by ignatius » Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Alonso_castillo
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Arquidiósesis de Guadalajara (México)
Posts: 360


Me when younger


« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2010, 06:20:42 PM »

I see that much people of the forum were once in time catholics. What can I say about that?, that they were bad catholics, bad enough to abandon the truth faith, many catholics have brought here quotations from many eastern father exalting the church of Rome, and yet, the former catholics are more reckless to turn back to catholicism.

Now, it is also interesting, that if an eventual union between orthodoxy and catholicism, the greatest opponents are those who went out of Catholicism. Pity to see that the converted from Catholicism to orthodoxy are not but the waste of Catholicism, those who never were real catholics, those who never loved their church, and those who were more attracted to ritualistic than to righteousness.

We all know that the sin of Adam was his ego, and many here clime that pope is the product of the same ego, one has to be really idiot to conclude such a thing, one has to be blind by its own ego to see that in the papacy as an institution the ruling is ego. Don’t you see that pope is nothing but a man who was elected by his brothers? Was his egotistical desire the cause of his reaching there? Is his place something that he can heir to his sons? What sons? Papacy is a service, not more, from one who has chosen to give his life to God in the service of his brothers. He will never rest until die.

The Catholicism is the truth faith, the one of those that have understood that the submission of the ego to authority is the real way that Adam never understood. The independency of churches in east, the so called autocephalies, are not but the result of the nationalistic egocentricity of a full people, that has not reach to understand the meaning of  the words and desires of our Lord Jesus. May all be one.

Even more, patriarchates are so quoted by theirs flocks that they are democracies, Is God democratic? Once more we see that hellenistic elements are introduced in orthodoxy as the faith of those who were hellenized .  It is truth that in the beginning when apostles chose a substitute for Jude, they ask to the members gathered to present three candidates and Holy Spirit would decide. But Who was leading this event? St Peter.

We also see that the council of Jerusalem was discussing about circumcision of gentile, and then after much discussion St Peter took the word and spoke in his name and the name of the Holy Spirit. Then every body agree with him, and obeyed.

Of  course there were many who disagree driven by their ego, their selfishness, and then many formed separated communities, apostles knew of them and condemned them. Yet the Lord gave his word to Peter, His Church (the church of the Lord entrusted to Peter) will never fail, will never fall to hell.

We, brothers, the Catholic Church that you have left, is that church founded on the apostles, St Peter and St Paul and is really the result of the union of two churches, The one of Rome, founded by St Peter and St Paul, and the church of Jerusalem, driven as a slave church among the jews taken to Rome by Titus in 70 AD after the predicted destruction of Jerusalem.

We catholics understand that we are the focus of many attacks from all around because of our testimony of our Lord. We are no more than our master, we testify to one who was crucified.

Those who have left Catholicism are followers of their ego, their own desires of intellectual satisfaction. No humbleness in them. No desire of submission to the will of God in them. The same egocentricity that Luther tracked and that all the sects have followed. In fact, we can say that Luther was invited by orthodoxy to meet them, as the proof of the share of the same feeling of nationalistic egocentricity.

Nationalistic egocentricity is the reason of the lack of submission of Moscow patriarchate to Constantinople patriarchate in the diaspora communities. So yet orthodoxy became independent of Catholicism, they haven’t reached a point of managerial unity, of a unified testimony, of a unified church in diaspora.


Finally, Can we say that egocentric nationalism is the way that our Lord Jesus desired by, “May all be one”? Not at all, and yet tht is the fundament of administration in orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 06:22:11 PM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,581



« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2010, 06:26:05 PM »

Quote
I see that much people of the forum were once in time catholics. What can I say about that?, that they were bad catholics, bad enough to abandon the truth faith,

In my own case, while I was baptized Catholic as an infant, I was not raised Catholic. My parents, my grand parents, and my godparents, did not make sure I remained Catholic. So I didn't abandon the Catholic faith, the Catholic faith (via her members) abandoned me to a spiritual limbo for 18 years. You all should have indoctrinated me while you had the chance Wink
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,934


"My god is greater."


« Reply #85 on: January 18, 2010, 06:57:44 PM »


So you equate your family and the few inidividual Catholics you've met and dialogued with over the course of your life to yield the average Catholic out of a billion... ?

Please. There are tons of Catholics, including priests and monastics, who openly and publicly deny basic Catholic teaching. There are entire groups, with a public existence, with the purpose of overthrowing certain aspects of Catholic tradition or dogma, for example, Dignity USA, or, virtually, the entire Melkite church. So my family is hardly an isolated example... you will hear countless such stories from Catholics around the world.

Quote
Your example, a former Jesuit Priest, who claims there to exist no Hell, in denial to the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Sacred Text is proof that Catholicism is not true?

No, you miss the point. The fact that so many Catholics openly reject basic Catholic teaching, without fear of any repercussions, shows that the much-boasted unity which the Papacy supposedly brings is illusory.

Quote
I don't trust myself to condemn the Western Church. I don't trust myself to know what Truth is.

I don't trust myself either. I trust the Church, and the Church has plainly condemned the heresies of the Papacy. I would not be so bold as to question that judgment.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #86 on: January 18, 2010, 07:17:51 PM »


I see that much people of the forum were once in time catholics.

Correction: they were at one time Romanists. Then they became Catholics.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #87 on: January 18, 2010, 07:22:01 PM »

And now they are discussing about how will papacy work in a Catholic Church that will also include Eastern Orthodoxy.

There is no such thing as "papacy" in the Church of Christ.  It is an alien beast introduced by the Church of Rome.  There is NO element in the Church higher than a bishop and a synod of bishops. 

This "papacy" has to be deconstructed before real ecumenism can occur.


Saint Justin Popovich:


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."



Well, I just inform you, you may split to old calendarist if you like. But the bishop of Rome would be once again the Primus of the church, until our Lord Jesus comes back, including oriental churches.
How can he once again be what he never was?

Just you wait...

Unless the Vatican has secretly mastered the powers of time travel, I'm not sure what you expect us to wait for...

I have a time machine in my home but it only goes foward and at normal speed.
LOL. I like that.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2010, 07:52:16 PM »

I see that much people of the forum were once in time catholics. What can I say about that?, that they were bad catholics,

You mean followers of the Vatican? 

Quote
bad enough to abandon the truth faith,
Some came to it and became Orthodox.


Quote
many catholics have brought here quotations from many eastern father exalting the church of Rome, and yet, the former catholics are more reckless to turn back to catholicism.

No, they are not willing to do the Vatican twisting of said quotes.



Quote
Now, it is also interesting, that if an eventual union between orthodoxy and catholicism, the greatest opponents are those who went out of Catholicism.
They know something.

Quote
Pity to see that the converted from Catholicism to orthodoxy are not but the waste of Catholicism, those who never were real catholics, those who never loved their church, and those who were more attracted to ritualistic than to righteousness.

The Vatican has reduced the Faith to submission to its claims to supremacy.  Anything else is negotiable.  Some much for righteousness.

Quote
We all know that the sin of Adam was his ego, and many here clime that pope is the product of the same ego, one has to be really idiot to conclude such a thing, one has to be blind by its own ego to see that in the papacy as an institution the ruling is ego. Don’t you see that pope is nothing but a man who was elected by his brothers? Was his egotistical desire the cause of his reaching there? Is his place something that he can heir to his sons? What sons? Papacy is a service, not more, from one who has chosen to give his life to God in the service of his brothers. He will never rest until die.
Papal service:


Quote
The Catholicism is the truth faith, the one of those that have understood that the submission of the ego to authority is the real way that Adam never understood. The independency of churches in east, the so called autocephalies, are not but the result of the nationalistic egocentricity of a full people, that has not reach to understand the meaning of  the words and desires of our Lord Jesus. May all be one.

Autocephalous Churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Cyprus and Jerusalem were founded by the Apostles in the same empire.

Not unity at any cost.  Christ has no fellowship with Belial.

Quote
Even more, patriarchates are so quoted by theirs flocks that they are democracies, Is God democratic? Once more we see that hellenistic elements are introduced in orthodoxy as the faith of those who were hellenized .  It is truth that in the beginning when apostles chose a substitute for Jude, they ask to the members gathered to present three candidates and Holy Spirit would decide. But Who was leading this event? St Peter.

We also see that the council of Jerusalem was discussing about circumcision of gentile, and then after much discussion St Peter took the word and spoke in his name and the name of the Holy Spirit. Then every body agree with him, and obeyed.

No.  St. James rendered his judgement, and his words were the ones which were agreed on and sent out. And obeyed.  Btw, St. Peter was in Antioch, and yet the Apostles went up to Jerusalem, St. James' see.

Quote
Of  course there were many who disagree driven by their ego, their selfishness, and then many formed separated communities, apostles knew of them and condemned them. Yet the Lord gave his word to Peter, His Church (the church of the Lord entrusted to Peter) will never fail, will never fall to hell.

You seem to be under the impression that you were baptised into Cephas.

Quote
We, brothers, the Catholic Church that you have left,


Our differences are datable to you, not us Catholics.

Quote
is that church founded on the apostles, St Peter and St Paul and is really the result of the union of two churches, The one of Rome, founded by St Peter and St Paul, and the church of Jerusalem, driven as a slave church among the jews taken to Rome by Titus in 70 AD after the predicted destruction of Jerusalem.

The Church at Jerusalem survived in Palestine, in Pella, and survives to this day.  Survived even the Crusades.

Quote
We catholics understand that we are the focus of many attacks from all around because of our testimony of our Lord. We are no more than our master, we testify to one who was crucified.


Your martyr complex is showing. And the Vatican has been quite good at creating martyrs too, including ours, e.g. St. Peter the Aleut, St. Athanasius of Brest-Lviv.

Quote
Those who have left Catholicism are followers of their ego, their own desires of intellectual satisfaction. No humbleness in them. No desire of submission to the will of God in them.


yes, for one thing, Cardinal Umbert had quite an ego.

Quote
The same egocentricity that Luther tracked and that all the sects have followed. In fact, we can say that Luther was invited by orthodoxy to meet them, as the proof of the share of the same feeling of nationalistic egocentricity.

Luther is your baby. We had nothing to do with him. And I say that as a former Lutheran.

Quote
Nationalistic egocentricity is the reason of the lack of submission of Moscow patriarchate to Constantinople patriarchate in the diaspora communities.


Ultramontanist pretentions of New Rome is the cause of the tensions.

Quote
So yet orthodoxy became independent of Catholicism, they haven’t reached a point of managerial unity, of a unified testimony, of a unified church in diaspora.
You're the one arguing with the French presence here.

Quote
Finally, Can we say that egocentric nationalism is the way that our Lord Jesus desired by, “May all be one”? Not at all, and yet tht is the fundament of administration in orthodoxy.
The Vatican is among the most egocentric, ethnocentric ecclesiologies there are: remember, everything in Latin?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Hamartolos
Warned
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 622


« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2010, 08:07:50 PM »

It's so interesting that Catholics sit around and scratch their heads to why there hasn't been a reunion between East-West, yet the superior attitude they take even on these forums gives a good sense to the Roman Church as a whole.  Rome may have re-written history a million times (Papacy, A LOT of theology, world history, where Eastern "Catholics" came from etc. etc.), but the Orthodox Church is getting the truth out to the world and people aren't buying Rome's baloney.  This could be a good reason to why conversions to Orthodoxy have been consistently going up, and the more exposure Orthodoxy gets, the more baptisms and chrismations we have each year.  Once Rome abolishes the whole Supremacy thing (theologically, ecclesiastically, and personally), perhaps then real talks can happen. 

Simply put, there will never be a reunion until Rome just admits the whole "Supreme Pontiff" non-sense was never really true to begin with.  I better stop there because the more I type, the more thinking I'm doing on how much Rome would need to get rid of and change before Orthodoxy would ever even consider taking them back. 
Logged

Formerly known as "mctavix"
Tags: Ravenna Cyprus ecumenism 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.212 seconds with 72 queries.