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Online Tzimis

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #360 on: January 26, 2010, 11:04:29 AM »
I see Nothing wrong with these two individuals, Deusveritasest or  Get_Behind_Me_Satan ,
their only preaching in what they believe and know....
I agree with them in many things.....
Someone has to take a stand and defend the truth and Orthodox way.....

They Have My Vote... ;D

I don't think god needs to be defended. He is god after all. If we Orthodox have the correct representation of him and know him we feel the same way as him.  "Not needing defense" It's when we ourselves have doubts we need reassuring of our position.  It's actually a health experience unless it gets out of hand and one overshoots salvation and replaces it with Pharisaic thought. Which our savior wholeheartedly despised as attested to in scripture.

Offline Alonso_castillo

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #361 on: January 26, 2010, 01:18:42 PM »
¿What do you think?
¿What should we think?

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Canon 28 of the 4th Ecumenical Council – Relevant or Irrelevant Today?
PHILIP, Archbishop of New York and Metropolitan of All North America
Jan 24, 2009, 10:00

Of all the canons dealing with Church authority and jurisdiction, there is probably none more controversial and debated in inter-Orthodox circles today than Canon 28 of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, held in the city of Chalcedon in the year 451. Those of us familiar with Church history know that the Ecumenical Council was called to put an end to the ongoing Christological debates of the time. While this was the main focus of the Council, like other councils before and after, it dealt with other pressing issues of the day. Canon 28 was not exception. It reads as follows:
 
Following in every detail all the decrees of the holy Fathers and knowing about the canon, just read, of the one hundred and fifty bishops dearly beloved of God, gathered together under Theodosius the Great, emperor of pious memory in the imperial city of Constantinople, New Rome, we ourselves have also decreed and voted the same things about the prerogatives of the very holy Church of this same Constantinople, New Rome. The Fathers in fact have correctly attributed the prerogatives (which belong) to the see of the most ancient Rome because it was the imperial city. And thus moved by the same reasoning, the one hundred and fifty bishops beloved of God have accorded equal prerogatives to the very holy see of New Rome, justly considering that the city that is honored by the imperial power and the senate and enjoying (within the civil order) the prerogatives equal to those of Rome, the most ancient imperial city, ought to be as elevated as Old Rome in the affairs of the Church, being in the second place after it. Consequently, the metropolitans and they alone of the dioceses of Pontus, Asia and Thrace, as well as the bishops among the barbarians of the aforementioned dioceses, are to be ordained by the previously mentioned very holy see of the very holy Church of Constantinople; that is, each metropolitan of the above-mentioned dioceses is to ordain the bishops of the province along with the fellow bishops of that province as has been provided for in the divine canons. As for the metropolitans of the previously mentioned dioceses, they are to be ordained, as has already been said, by the archbishop of Constantinople, after harmonious elections have taken place according to custom and after the archbishop has been notified.
 
The issue of the proper interpretation of Canon 28 and its relationship to the so-called “diaspora” is crucial, not only to the Church in North America, but to the relationship of all Orthodox churches worldwide to each other, and to their witness to the world. As Patriarch ALEKSY of Russia has said: “The question of the Orthodox diaspora is one of the most important problems in inter-Orthodox relations. Given its complexity and the fact that it has not been sufficiently regularized, it has introduced serious complications in[to] the relations between Churches and, without a doubt, has diminished the strength of Orthodox witness throughout the contemporary world.” (For more information on the historical background of Canon 28, I recommend the book The Church of the Ancient Councils: The Disciplinary Work of the First Four Ecumenical Councils, by the late Archbishop PETER L’Huillier, published in 1996 by St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press.)
 
 It is my opinion that there are three types of canons: 1) Dogmatic; 2) Contextual; and 3) “Dead” canons. Canon 28 is by no means a “dead” canon, since there is still great controversy over it today, and so many commentaries, both past and present, show how controversial it has been, to say the least. I believe that Canon 28, historically, is a contextual canon and not a dogmatic one; it gave the city of Constantinople certain rights as the New Rome for secular, political reasons because it was the seat of the emperor. At the same time, the Fourth Ecumenical Council considered (Old) Rome to be the first among equals. What does this say to us today? Let us begin by stating that the whole idea today of “Rome,” “New Rome,” and “Third Rome” would be absurd. If we want to give prominence to any city in Christendom, we should give it to Jerusalem, where the history of salvation was accomplished.
 
The second part of the Canon dealt with the Dioceses of Pontus, Asia and Thrace. Canon 28 gave Constantinople jurisdiction over the metropolitans of the barbarians and those three provinces or dioceses, which today are only Bulgaria, Northeastern Greece and European Turkey.
 
We can also ask, Is this Canon dealing with a dogmatic issue or a pastoral administrative one? In my opinion it clearly deals with an administrative question. If Antioch or Alexandria had become the seat of imperial power, likely this Canon would have made either of them New Rome. If we were to follow the reasoning of Canon 28, in fact, then Russia could rightfully claim, as it did historically, to be the Third Rome, and the Church of Greece could have made the claim to be the Fourth Rome during the captivity of the Russian Church under Communism.
 
Given the lack of a new Great Council, common sense would dictate that, with the current captivity of the church in Constantinople (whose indigenous flock totals just a few thousand), there is no reason for Canon 28 and it is no longer relevant today. We do have a problem, however: we have a responsibility to the past and the councils of the past, but there is no Great Council to address this issue. We must therefore explore other solutions.
 
While the Canon is not relevant to the question of different “Romes,” it is profi table for us to look at its relevance today, especially to the subject of administrative organization in North America. We are well aware of the complex issues regarding the so-called “diaspora” and the desire of our Orthodox people, especially in North America, to have an administratively united church. As you must know, there are basically two interpretations of this Canon that extend back into history. Some claim that this Canon implies that Constantinople has authority over all territories outside the geographical limits of autocephalous churches.
 
Those on the other side of the argument say that this interpretation is, in fact, misinterpretation. Archbishop PETER in his book, The Church of the Ancient Councils, states that “such interpretation is completely fantastic.” For those holding this view, any autocephalous church can do missionary work outside her boundaries and can grant autocephaly to such missions. Archbishop PAUL of Finland, in summarizing the position of the Orthodox churches, has stated in the reports submitted in 1990 to the Preparatory Commission for the Great and Holy Council that “the Patriarchates of Antioch, Moscow and Romania strongly oppose the authority of Constantinople over the diaspora and [maintain] that the theory remains an anachronism as far from the modern age as the year 451 of the Fourth Ecumenical Council is from the Twentieth Century.”
 
Patriarch ALEKSY of Russia has stated that it was only in 1921 that Patriarach MELETIOS Metsakis developed a theory of universal jurisdiction for Constantinople. “Historical facts indicate that until the 1920’s the Patriarch of Constantinople did not in fact exercise authority over the whole of the Orthodox diaspora throughout the world, and made no claim to such authority.” The Russian Orthodox Church responded in a letter to the Ecumenical Patriarchate regarding the case of Bishop BASIL (Osborne) as follows: “With respect to Canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon, it is vital to recall that it concerns only certain provinces, the boundaries of which represent the limits of the authority of the Patriarch of Constantinople over the bishops ‘of the barbarians.’”
 
We see, then, that the notion that this Canon extends the authority of the throne of Constantinople to all territories that are not part of one or another local church is a novelty, and one not recognized by the Orthodox Church as a whole. This misinterpretation of Canon 28 would extend beyond territorial issues to such things as the claim that a representative of the Patriarchate of Constantinople should chair any Episcopal assembly, anywhere in the world. This claim can extend down to local clergy groups, Pan-Orthodox associations and organizations, and so forth.
 
In 1961, we in the United States and Canada formed the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas (SCOBA). I have been a member of SCOBA since 1966. The misinterpretation of Canon 28 has not been helpful to the work of SCOBA. In my opinion, SCOBA has four major defects. First, the representation of the Orthodox Churches in SCOBA does not reflect reality in North America. Neither the Moscow Patriarchate nor the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) are represented in SCOBA, while the Ecumenical Patriarchate has four of the nine seats.
 
Second, the insistence that the Exarch of the Patriarchate of Constantinople must be the President of SCOBA is not what was agreed upon at the beginning. The constitution of SCOBA which has never been amended, provides that there shall be a rotating presidency. Subsequently, at the insistence of the Antiochian Archdiocese, Archbishop SPYRIDON and then Archbishop DEMETRIUS were elected by the SCOBA members after the retirement of the later Archbishop IAKOVOS of thrice-blessed memory.
 
The third defect of SCOBA is that its decisions are not internally binding. In the 1990 documents before the Preparatory Commission for a Great and Holy Council, in discussing the Western European situation, some autocephalous churches suggested the formation of Episcopal Assemblies whose decisions can be internally binding.
 
I would like to quote here again from the letter from the Russian Orthodox Church to the Preparatory Commission. The relations between jurisdictions and dioceses to the Mother Churches would remain the same, but in all  purely internal matters, which would include education, teaching, the diakonia, Orthodox witness, ecumenical relations on the local level, pastoral practice, the Bishops’ Assembly would serve in joint effort as one whole unite and autonomous in its relationship to the mother church.” This Bishops’ Assembly, for example, would address non-canonical situations in North America such as the infringement of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem in North America with the blessings of the Patriarchate of Constantinople.
 
A fourth problem with SCOBA, I believe, is the assumption that we are a “diaspora.” On the contrary: the only way to move the cause of Orthodox unity forward in North America is to insist that we are not a “diaspora.” We have been here two hundred years. The late Protopresbytr, John Meyendorff, of blessed memory, states in an essay in his book A Vision of Unity that diaspora is a biblical term and has a perfectly adequate equivalent – “dispersion.” He says later in the same article: “There is no promised land any more except the heavenly Jerusalem.”
 
Most of the people in my Archdiocese have no intention of returning to their place of origin. This is true even of new immigrants, let alone those of the third or fourth generation. Our people are here to stay, and we are indeed an indigenous church in North America. I believe that the Church in North America is mature enough to take care of herself without any interference from the outside. Those who support an ethnocentric reading of Canon 28 and insist that unity on a national basis cannot be discussed, then, are naïve and bury their heads in the sand. While they may delight in holding lectures and conferences on the environment, the witness and mission of the church is ignored.
The Orthodox principle is not to organize the church based on ethnicity, but, in the modern world, upon the nation-state. Ironically enough, when ethnic ecclesiology began to flourish and prosper in the nineteenth century, it was the Pan-Orthodox Synod of Constantinople itself that condemned ecclesiological ethno-phyletism as heresy in 1872. During our Archdiocese Convention last July in Montreal, Canada, I shared with my clergy and laity what I said on the subject to my brother bishops at the Archdiocesan Synod Meeting on May 31, 2007, and I summarize my thoughts in what follows.
Since 1966, I have lived with two obsessions: 1) The unity of our Archdiocese; and 2) Orthodox Unity in North America. Where are we now in regard to this latter unity? Unfortunately, the Once Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in North America is now divided into more than fifteen jurisdictions based on ethnicity, contrary to the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils. Our canons clearly state that we cannot have more than one bishop over the same territory, and one metropolitan over the same metropolis. I regret to tell you that we Orthodox are violating this important ecclesiological principle in North America, South America, Europe and Australia. In New York, for example, we have more than ten Orthodox bishops over the same city and the same territory. I can say the same thing about other cities and territories in North America.
 
We are not alone; the same thing has happened in Paris, France. There are six co-existing Orthodox Bishops with overlapping ecclesiological jurisdictions. In my opinion and in the opinion of Orthodox canonists, this is ecclesiological ethno-phyletism. This is heretical. How can we condemn ethno-phyletism as a heresy in 1872 and still practice the same thing in the twenty-first century here in North America? When I lived in Damascus, Syria, and Beirut, Lebanon, in the early 1950s, there were large Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox communities there, but they were not under the Archbishop of Athens or the Patriarchate of Moscow, but under the omophorions of the Antiochian local bishops. Due to wars and social upheaval, we now have a large Lebanese community in Athens, Greece, and they are under the omophorion of the Archbishop of Athens. They do not have a separate jurisdiction just because they are Lebanese Orthodox.
 
Archimandrite Gregorios Papathomas, a professor of Canon Law and Dean of St. Sergius Theological Institute in Paris, France, wrote, “The defining criterion of an ecclesiastical body has been its location. It has never been nationality, race, culture, ritual or confession”. In First Corinthians (1:2) St. Paul writes, “To the Church of God which is at Corinth…” and again in Second Corinthians he writes, “To the Church of God which is at Corinth….” He writes to the Galatians, “To the Church of Galacia….” (1:2). We learn from the Apostles and the Fathers that the church is one church, one and the same church, the body of Christ, found in Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Constantinople, Greece, Rome, Russia, and so forth. Based on all of this, it is simply wrong to call the church Russian or Greek or American, because the church, in essence, transcends nationalism, race and culture. Here in North America we distort Orthodox ecclesiology by our ethnic jurisdictions.
 
The twenty-first century has dawned upon us. What, then, is to be our response to the challenge of Orthodox unity in North America? SCOBA was established in 1961; some of its founders were the late Archbishop IAKOVOS and the late Metropolitan ANTONY Bashir. May their souls rest in peace. Under “Objectives” in Paragraph I, Section C, the original constitution of SCOBA, adopted January 24, 1961, states that “the purpose of the conference is the consideration and resolution of common ecclesiastical problems, the coordination of efforts in matters of common concern to Orthodoxy, and the strengthening of Orthodox unity.” Last year, between October 3 and 6, SCOBA invited all canonical Orthodox Bishops to meet in Chicago, Illinois, to discuss common Orthodox problems. The communiqué issued on October 5, 2006, did not mention a word about Orthodox unity in America.
 
Again in November, 2006, a meeting of Inter-Orthodox priests met in Brookline, Massachusetts. A draft statement dated January 22, 2007, was circulated and not a word about Orthodox unity in North America was mentioned. I am convinced that serious attempts are being made, by some hierarchs in North America and abroad, to sweep the whole question of Orthodox unity, in this hemisphere, under the rug. After the Brookline encounter, one of my Antiochian clergy wrote to me the following: “Two of the Greek priests gave very strong talks on unity. We did decide, however, that given the landscape, we would use the word ‘cooperation’ and not ‘unity’ in our printed records.” This statement, my friends, speaks for itself.
 
I believe that an Ecumenical Council would be very difficult at this time. It would probably cause a division, or numerous divisions in the Church, and this would counter-productive. After all, if an issue such as changing the calendar causes splits and division, imagine what would happen if we were to discuss more serious issues. Fortunately or unfortunately, we no longer have the Byzantine emperor to enforce decisions that such a council can make.
 
An an alternative, I propose the formation of an Inter-Orthodox commission, located some place like Geneva, Switzerland, on which each autocephalous church and each self-ruled church would have a permanent representative. To this commission they would bring issues and problems to be discussed on behalf of the mother churches, and they would deal with specific Orthodox problems throughout the world. The decisions of the commission would be submitted to all mother churches for action.
 
With all the obstacles we face, have we reached a dead end? No, with the All-Holy Spirit working in the Church, there are no dead ends. I am sure that thousands of Orthodox clergy and hundreds of thousands of Orthodox laity in North America are deeply committed to Orthodox unity. We Orthodox must put our house in order, if we want to have a serious Orthodox mission in North America. This unity will begin with our clergy and laity, on the local level. My generation is slowly, but surely, fading away. It is up to you and our younger generation to carry the torch and to make the light of a unified Orthodoxy shine on this continent and everywhere.
 
Metropolitan PHILIP’s talk was part of the Conference of the Fellowship of St. Alban and St. Sergius, held at St. Vladimir’s Seminary, June 4-8, 2008.
 
This article originally appeared in THE WORD Vol. 53 No. 1, January 2009

__________________________________

¿ONE?, ¿HOLY?, ¡¿CATHOLIC?!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 01:28:36 PM by Alonso_castillo »
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frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #362 on: January 26, 2010, 01:21:05 PM »
Pagan Rome + Christian persecution + Roman Catholicism  +  Papal inquisitions (more Christian murders) + Ecumenism = NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE KINGDOM OF THE ANTI-CHRIST  Nothing New Under the Sun
There. I have fixed it. :)
We must not operate either out of fear nor panic, as I see most people with "apocalyptic" ideas do. Why should the Christians in the days of the Antichrist do anything different to the Christians of the first, second, third.......21st centuries? Our duty is is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body and to love our neighbour as ourself. Nothing in this duty of ours changes even if we are standing in the throne-room of the Antichrist himself. Our duty as Christians is still the same no matter what, so why the panic? And if we are weak and experience panic in difficult situations, we should at least try not to communicate our panic to others.


And if we ever do find ourselves in the such a throne-room, I think that we will not ignore our difference but that Catholics and Orthodox Christians will then truely love eachother as Christ has commanded us.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #363 on: January 26, 2010, 01:44:35 PM »
Pagan Rome + Christian persecution + Roman Catholicism  +  Papal inquisitions (more Christian murders) + Ecumenism = NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE KINGDOM OF THE ANTI-CHRIST  

You have a brain, use it.

etc...etc...etc...




A sad post on what has become a sad thread to consider during this, the week following the Sunday of the Pharisee and the Publican.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #364 on: January 26, 2010, 02:26:11 PM »
¿What do you think?
¿What should we think?

....

¿ONE?, ¿HOLY?, ¡¿CATHOLIC?!

Yes, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Bottom line, any Orthodox can commune in any one of autocephalous Churches. As a member of the OCA, for instance, I communed in Constantinople herself.

Bottom line, the EP answers to the Apostolic Orthodox Churches, not the Vatican.

And that doesn't change anywhere in the world.  So we think, and you should think, that a Supreme Pontiff is not needed to keep the Church One, Holy, Catholic or Apostolic.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #365 on: January 26, 2010, 03:19:54 PM »
And that doesn't change anywhere in the world.  So we think, and you should think, that a Supreme Pontiff is not needed to keep the Church One, Holy, Catholic or Apostolic.

Indeed.  In fact, we believe the opposite to be true: that the Bishop of Rome needs the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church to keep himself free of error and in Communion with the Body of Christ.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #366 on: January 26, 2010, 03:24:36 PM »
And that doesn't change anywhere in the world.  So we think, and you should think, that a Supreme Pontiff is not needed to keep the Church One, Holy, Catholic or Apostolic.

Indeed.  In fact, we believe the opposite to be true: that the Bishop of Rome needs the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church to keep himself free of error and in Communion with the Body of Christ.
Amen!  Let the Pope of Rome confess the Orthodox Faith, and he shall be first.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #367 on: January 26, 2010, 03:37:27 PM »
And that doesn't change anywhere in the world.  So we think, and you should think, that a Supreme Pontiff is not needed to keep the Church One, Holy, Catholic or Apostolic.

Indeed.  In fact, we believe the opposite to be true: that the Bishop of Rome needs the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church to keep himself free of error and in Communion with the Body of Christ.
Amen!  Let the Pope of Rome confess the Orthodox Faith, and he shall be first.

Good grief!  Never!  The man has been ill and ailing for the last 1000 years, distorting doctrines, unleashing persecution on the Orthodox Church and our faithful, trying to destroy us and divide us with imitations of Orthodox Churches.  And now we want to place him at the head of the Church of Christ!   God forbid!   He will need many long years and even centuries of slow restoration to spiritual and doctrinal health - and even then it is doubtful if he will regain the place he held in the first millennium.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 03:39:31 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #368 on: January 26, 2010, 03:49:49 PM »
And that doesn't change anywhere in the world.  So we think, and you should think, that a Supreme Pontiff is not needed to keep the Church One, Holy, Catholic or Apostolic.

Indeed.  In fact, we believe the opposite to be true: that the Bishop of Rome needs the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church to keep himself free of error and in Communion with the Body of Christ.
Amen!  Let the Pope of Rome confess the Orthodox Faith, and he shall be first.

Good grief!  Never!  The man has been ill and ailing for the last 1000 years, distorting doctrines, unleashing persecution on the Orthodox Church and our faithful, trying to destroy us and divide us with imitations of Orthodox Churches.  And now we want to place him at the head of the Church of Christ!   God forbid!   He will need many long years and even centuries of slow restoration to spiritual and doctrinal health - and even then it is doubtful if he will regain the place he held in the first millennium.
The Road to Damascus starts with the first step....
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Hamartolos

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #369 on: January 26, 2010, 03:53:28 PM »
And that doesn't change anywhere in the world.  So we think, and you should think, that a Supreme Pontiff is not needed to keep the Church One, Holy, Catholic or Apostolic.

Indeed.  In fact, we believe the opposite to be true: that the Bishop of Rome needs the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church to keep himself free of error and in Communion with the Body of Christ.
Amen!  Let the Pope of Rome confess the Orthodox Faith, and he shall be first.

Good grief!  Never!  The man has been ill and ailing for the last 1000 years, distorting doctrines, unleashing persecution on the Orthodox Church and our faithful, trying to destroy us and divide us with imitations of Orthodox Churches.  And now we want to place him at the head of the Church of Christ!   God forbid!   He will need many long years and even centuries of slow restoration to spiritual and doctrinal health - and even then it is doubtful if he will regain the place he held in the first millennium.

Quite true.  To expect the Pope would ever give up the idea of himself being the one human closest to God on earth is far fetched.  It took a thousand years just for Rome to say "sorry" for just a few of the atrocities it has been apart of since its formation.  (Oh ok, sure.  Just forget about the millions of Orthodox and others killed.  We understand this good and "holy" church just had an unquenchable thirst for world domination.)  One can only imagine how many more millenniums it will be until he admits he was wrong again.  

I would think it would be quite difficult for any Orthodox Patriarch (or any person) to sit next to a man who believes he is literally superior to you.  

Offline ignatius

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #370 on: January 26, 2010, 03:54:18 PM »
The Road to Damascus starts with the first step....

And before that, you have to get thrown from your horse.  ;)
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline ignatius

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #371 on: January 26, 2010, 03:56:51 PM »
Quite true.  To expect the Pope would ever give up the idea of himself being the one human closest to God on earth is far fetched.  It took a thousand years just for Rome to say "sorry" for just a few of the atrocities it has been apart of since its formation.  (Oh ok, sure.  Just forget about the millions of Orthodox and others killed.  We understand this good and "holy" church just had an unquenchable thirst for world domination.)  One can only imagine how many more millenniums it will be until he admits he was wrong again.

'He' was wrong. You speak as if the man in lost to the office and is to blame for history.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 04:17:41 PM by ignatius »
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #372 on: January 26, 2010, 04:13:14 PM »
A sad post on what has become a sad thread to consider during this, the week following the Sunday of the Pharisee and the Publican.

Amen.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #373 on: January 26, 2010, 04:47:41 PM »
I was listening to EWTN, the Catholic radio station on my way to vigil last night. They had on James Likoudis  who seems to be their main anti-Orthodox apologist. Apparently he has just written another book about us.

His talk was full of offensive half truths and spin. If this is how the Catholics want to present us, then they shouldn't be too surprised when we are cool towards their overtures.

Thanks for the information, now I know whom should I read.

If you are looking for the Party Line, Likoudis is your man. Everything is geared to stop Catholics from investigating Orthodoxy, so if that is your aim, he will provide the ammo.

The worst part of the interview was some comments by Doug Keck the EWTN book review host. He said that he just couldn't understand how anyone would want to subject themself to being marginalized in a Church based on ethic associations.. to paraphrase. They both talked about how "Americans"sometimes convert to Orthodoxy to by pass the Pope but then find themselves outsiders and foreigners..

These two need to catch up. It's 2010. I belong to a Mission Church with about 40 members. About three are cradle Orthodox. The Priest is an Anglican convert. The day of the broadcast we were visited by an Afro -American fellow looking to convert to Orthodoxy (he's been reading). He stood with the two other black families in our Parish. One of  Priests at the Rocor Cathedral downtown is Black. We are chrismating a Catholic convert next Saturday.

The other Parish I belonged to before this one has about 300 families. I'd guess seventy percent are converts and thirty percent are cradle. The Priest is cradle but third or fourth generation. They are OCA. The new Metropolitan is a convert from the Episcopal Church , American born.

So the end result of this sort of false picture is that when a Catholic shows up on our doorstep for whatever reason (maybe even just for a wedding or baptism) he may well discover that what he has been told is a miss representation. It's a bad strategy on their part.

It's no wonder they only have one convert apologist . And even his supposed resume is questionable. He claims he was made a Deacon only after three or four months of being Orthodox
 ( his idea was that he was such a knowledgeable Protestant that he got the gig right away.. )


That smells really fishy to anyone who knows what it takes to become a Deacon in the Orthodox Church..
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 04:53:15 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Mickey

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #374 on: January 26, 2010, 04:57:35 PM »
That smells really fishy to anyone who knows what it takes to become a Deacon in the Orthodox Church.

Indeed!

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #375 on: January 26, 2010, 05:01:12 PM »
I say Likoudis problem is that he ended up a Catholic by loosing his Greek ethnicity and the RCism was an offshoot of trying to Americanize himself.  I'm not sure if this was do to his parent disinterest in their heritage and faith (I do remember watching an interview with him were he stated that his earliest memories were of going to a Greek church with his father).  Or if his RC conversion was due to a later desire to make himself more American (he converted through an army chaplain, I think).  

I am all for conversions to Orthodoxy, but personally have never felt myself marginalized by attending an ethnic parish.  Maybe its because I grew up an ":ethnic" and don't feel uncomfortable around others who have ethnicity.  I know that some converts to the OC are %100, fanatically anti ethnic and demand the complete Americanization of every parish they attend.  There are also cradles who insist on complete ethnicity to the point that all outsiders are unwelcome in their parishes (although, from my experience, the l;latter is no longer as common as it once was).  Both are not the best solution to how to make Orthodoxy "work" in the USA.  we need to be open and respectful to eachother but not tot he point of excluding who we are as a people and our priceless heritage of faith.
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #376 on: January 26, 2010, 05:02:54 PM »
That smells really fishy to anyone who knows what it takes to become a Deacon in the Orthodox Church.

Indeed!

Correct me if I am off bass here but I thought we were talking about that cradle Greek Orthodox turned Catholic in college. The fellow I am talking about is older.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #377 on: January 26, 2010, 05:18:52 PM »
¿What do you think?
¿What should we think?


¿ONE?, ¿HOLY?, ¡¿CATHOLIC?!
Not if one bases his definition of "one", "holy", and "catholic" purely on outward appearances.  However, despite the outward appearance of disunity, we are still one Church in that we still preach one faith, the faith of the Apostles, and we still partake of one Eucharist in that someone from the Greek Archdiocese can travel to Moscow and receive Communion from the hand of a Russian priest.  At least we have enough of a catholic consciousness to recognize that the practice of having multiple bishops with parallel jurisdiction over the same geographical territory is a terrible violation of the canonical norm and are trying to find ways to remedy this.  But this situation does not cut to the core of our life as the Church, since it does not separate Christians at the very chalice of our Lord's Body and Blood.
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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #378 on: January 26, 2010, 05:19:49 PM »
That smells really fishy to anyone who knows what it takes to become a Deacon in the Orthodox Church.

Indeed!

Correct me if I am off bass here but I thought we were talking about that cradle Greek Orthodox turned Catholic in college. The fellow I am talking about is older.
Nice pun! :D
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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #379 on: January 26, 2010, 05:47:06 PM »
I say Likoudis problem is that he ended up a Catholic by loosing his Greek ethnicity and the RCism was an offshoot of trying to Americanize himself.  I'm not sure if this was do to his parent disinterest in their heritage and faith (I do remember watching an interview with him were he stated that his earliest memories were of going to a Greek church with his father).  Or if his RC conversion was due to a later desire to make himself more American (he converted through an army chaplain, I think).  

I am all for conversions to Orthodoxy, but personally have never felt myself marginalized by attending an ethnic parish.  Maybe its because I grew up an ":ethnic" and don't feel uncomfortable around others who have ethnicity.  I know that some converts to the OC are %100, fanatically anti ethnic and demand the complete Americanization of every parish they attend.  There are also cradles who insist on complete ethnicity to the point that all outsiders are unwelcome in their parishes (although, from my experience, the l;latter is no longer as common as it once was).  Both are not the best solution to how to make Orthodoxy "work" in the USA.  we need to be open and respectful to eachother but not tot he point of excluding who we are as a people and our priceless heritage of faith.

Thank you! Robb is right on point for those of us who were born into the faith, and still are involved in an ethnic parish or in the maintenance of our cultural traditions. There is room in the Church for all and in the United States in particular which is a culture made up of many cultures. But I agree, those who would require ethnicity as an admission pass are as way off the mark as are those seeking a true 'American' (i.e. reject all ethnic traits) church.  It is ironic that the idea of Americanizing the Roman church was  Archbishop Ireland's passion and that passion led to the return of hundreds of thousands of Eastern European immigrants to the Orthodox Church over the following seventy five years.! If you don't know history, you are condemned to repeat its errors. 

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #380 on: January 26, 2010, 06:09:10 PM »
Pagan Rome + Christian persecution + Roman Catholicism  +  Papal inquisitions (more Christian murders) + Ecumenism = NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE KINGDOM OF THE ANTI-CHRIST  Nothing New Under the Sun
There. I have fixed it. :)
We must not operate either out of fear nor panic, as I see most people with "apocalyptic" ideas do. Why should the Christians in the days of the Antichrist do anything different to the Christians of the first, second, third.......21st centuries? Our duty is is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body and to love our neighbour as ourself. Nothing in this duty of ours changes even if we are standing in the throne-room of the Antichrist himself. Our duty as Christians is still the same no matter what, so why the panic? And if we are weak and experience panic in difficult situations, we should at least try not to communicate our panic to others.




Because ROMAN CATHOLICISM IS A HERETICAL CHURCH, A FAKE, A FRAUD, A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING

ITS NOT REAL CHRISTIANITY

ONLY ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY IS REAL CHRISTIANITY, AND EVEN THAT IS AFLAME FROM HAVING COMMUNION WITH HERETICS (THE 'HOLY' POPE).
The goal of this whole ecumenism is to bring about a new world order.
Here is the truth of the matter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEC6e8N0Wfk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOGQVvEU8vY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjxtEn_UXA&feature=related

Well people should realize these matters, im not acting out of 'panic' its just truth, and people need to know the truth and not let themselves be deceived:

2Pet. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Matt. 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Pope visit synogonue?!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/17/italy.pope.synagigue/index.html

Something really fishy here.
2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline ignatius

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #381 on: January 26, 2010, 06:22:01 PM »
Because ROMAN CATHOLICISM IS A HERETICAL CHURCH, A FAKE, A FRAUD, A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING

ITS NOT REAL CHRISTIANITY

ONLY ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY IS REAL CHRISTIANITY, AND EVEN THAT IS AFLAME FROM HAVING COMMUNION WITH HERETICS (THE 'HOLY' POPE).

Pope visit synogonue?!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/17/italy.pope.synagigue/index.html

Something really fishy here.
2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

So let me understand what you are saying here... because the Pope 'visited' a Jewish Synagogue that he is 'yoked'... knowing that this passage is out of context could you share with us the original intent of this text?
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #382 on: January 26, 2010, 06:33:01 PM »
The goal of this whole ecumenism is to bring about a new world order.

I hate to break it to you but the merger of various Churches and faiths is not going to bring about a "new world order".  We've seen various Churches and religion institutions continue to lose influence over the general public (with certain exceptions), and this is likely a trend that will continue.  Even in a world with a "First Amalgamated Church" like in Futurama, it would not have the ability to form some all-powerful collective that will bring about some sort of apocalypse.  It would pontificate to a public that really wasn't all too interested in listening.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #383 on: January 26, 2010, 06:35:27 PM »
The goal of this whole ecumenism is to bring about a new world order.

I hate to break it to you but the merger of various Churches and faiths is not going to bring about a "new world order".  We've seen various Churches and religion institutions continue to lose influence over the general public (with certain exceptions), and this is likely a trend that will continue.  
The reports of the demise of religion in the modern world are greatly exagerated.
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #384 on: January 26, 2010, 06:37:34 PM »
The reports of the demise of religion in the modern world are greatly exagerated.
I suppose I meant organised religion more.  Everyday you run into more 'spiritual' people rather than people who adhere to any sort of Church (other than culturally, maybe).
As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #385 on: January 26, 2010, 06:43:32 PM »
The reports of the demise of religion in the modern world are greatly exagerated.
I suppose I meant organised religion more.  Everyday you run into more 'spiritual' people rather than people who adhere to any sort of Church (other than culturally, maybe).
No, I meant organized religion.  "spiritual people" are usually too airheaded to have any influence, any lasting influence that is.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alonso_castillo

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #386 on: January 26, 2010, 07:07:14 PM »
PHILIP, Archbishop of New York and Metropolitan of All North America

..." I believe that Canon 28, historically, is a contextual canon and not a dogmatic one; it gave the city of Constantinople certain rights as the New Rome for secular, political reasons because it was the seat of the emperor."...

Do you all agree with him?

« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 07:08:12 PM by Alonso_castillo »
Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #387 on: January 26, 2010, 07:09:55 PM »
Pagan Rome + Christian persecution + Roman Catholicism  +  Papal inquisitions (more Christian murders) + Ecumenism = NEW WORLD ORDER AND THE KINGDOM OF THE ANTI-CHRIST  Nothing New Under the Sun
There. I have fixed it. :)
We must not operate either out of fear nor panic, as I see most people with "apocalyptic" ideas do. Why should the Christians in the days of the Antichrist do anything different to the Christians of the first, second, third.......21st centuries? Our duty is is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and body and to love our neighbour as ourself. Nothing in this duty of ours changes even if we are standing in the throne-room of the Antichrist himself. Our duty as Christians is still the same no matter what, so why the panic? And if we are weak and experience panic in difficult situations, we should at least try not to communicate our panic to others.




Because ROMAN CATHOLICISM IS A HERETICAL CHURCH, A FAKE, A FRAUD, A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
Is this why you are panicking? I ask because you write this in response to my post in which I said there is absolutely no reason to panic, even if we are in the throne-room of the Antichrist because nothing has changed for us as far as our duties as Christians go. So why did you begin your response with the word "Because"? Are you saying that we should be fearful and panic? If so, I completely disagree. We who are Orthodox Christians are called to Love and St. John says: "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)
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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #388 on: January 26, 2010, 07:14:58 PM »
PHILIP, Archbishop of New York and Metropolitan of All North America

..." I believe that Canon 28, historically, is a contextual canon and not a dogmatic one; it gave the city of Constantinople certain rights as the New Rome for secular, political reasons because it was the seat of the emperor."...

Do you all agree with him?

Of course I agree. Jurisdiction has never been a matter of dogma for us- only for you guys. :D
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #389 on: January 26, 2010, 07:28:44 PM »
I agree that the canon is not a dogmatic matter. I would be of that opinion if I was EO.

However, identifying rather with the OO I have no inherent devotion to it, it being a canon of a council which I reject.

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #390 on: January 26, 2010, 07:29:26 PM »
Because ROMAN CATHOLICISM IS A HERETICAL CHURCH, A FAKE, A FRAUD, A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING

ITS NOT REAL CHRISTIANITY

ONLY ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY IS REAL CHRISTIANITY, AND EVEN THAT IS AFLAME FROM HAVING COMMUNION WITH HERETICS (THE 'HOLY' POPE).

Pope visit synogonue?!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/17/italy.pope.synagigue/index.html

Something really fishy here.
2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

So let me understand what you are saying here... because the Pope 'visited' a Jewish Synagogue that he is 'yoked'... knowing that this passage is out of context could you share with us the original intent of this text?

The pope is the one who has united all religions into one global religion, which is the religion of the anti-christ.
Ecumenism is one of the foundations for the NWO

Now this cannot be refuted:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1161.cfm

It is true, we have been yoked together with unbelievers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjxtEn_UXA
“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

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Down with ecumenism!

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #391 on: January 26, 2010, 07:39:29 PM »
The goal of this whole ecumenism is to bring about a new world order.

I hate to break it to you but the merger of various Churches and faiths is not going to bring about a "new world order".  We've seen various Churches and religion institutions continue to lose influence over the general public (with certain exceptions), and this is likely a trend that will continue.  
The reports of the demise of religion in the modern world are greatly exagerated.

Thats not what this guy says, thats not the truth of the matter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjxtEn_UXA

"Man, you live in the ALLdelusion of the ecumenism, because all the heresies are gathered in the ecumenism''



http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_rome.aspx
http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/MOM%2008%202007.htm
“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #392 on: January 26, 2010, 07:41:41 PM »
My, hasn't this thread become fun. This is page is exactly what keeps most of Catholics unintereseted in investigating Eastern Orthodoxy.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #393 on: January 26, 2010, 07:44:09 PM »

My, hasn't this thread become fun. This is page is exactly what keeps most of Catholics unintereseted in investigating Eastern Orthodoxy.

Well, he does appear to be Old Calendarist.

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #394 on: January 26, 2010, 07:45:55 PM »

My, hasn't this thread become fun. This is page is exactly what keeps most of Catholics unintereseted in investigating Eastern Orthodoxy.

Well, he does appear to be Old Calendarist.
True, but I am also referring to the triumphalism found in Irish Hermit's post. It makes think, "is that what Eastern Orthodoxy does to a person?"
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 07:46:50 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #395 on: January 26, 2010, 07:46:57 PM »
Zealots of Orthodoxy - Part of Chapter 52 from Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works
Concerning Hasty and False Union with Rome
by Hieromonk Damascene

Know that we must serve, not the times, but God.
—St. Athanasius the Great 1

The Sergianist spirit of legalism and compromise with the spirit of this world is everywhere in the Orthodox Church today. But we are called to be soldiers of Christ in spite of this!
—Fr. Seraphim Rose, 1980 2
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In the defense of Orthodoxy against compromise, the chief issue of the day was seen to be ecumenism. According to the understanding of the ancient Church, the word oikoumne (the whole inhabited earth) had been used to refer to the confirming of all peoples in the fullness and purity of Truth; but in the modern age this meaning had been changed into just the opposite—the watering down and glossing over of saving truths for the sake of outward unity with the non-Orthodox. To Eugene, of course, this was one more preparation for the world unity of Antichrist, about which the Holy Fathers had clearly written. Throughout history, countless confessors had died to preserve the Church free from theological error, to maintain her purity as the Ark of salvation. And now some of the leading Orthodox hierarchs, according to their enlightened modern understanding, were trying to overlook these errors and were seeking ways to amalgamate with those who held them.

At this time, the most visible Orthodox ecumenist was the Patriarch of Constantinople himself, Athenagoras I. Meeting with Pope Paul VI in the Holy Land in 1963, he began to steer a course of non-doctrinally oriented ecumenical dialogue, asserting, Let the dogmas be placed in the storeroom, and, The age of Dogma has passed. 3 In December of 1965, through an act of mutual pardon made in conjunction with Pope Paul VI, he attempted to unite the Orthodox and Roman Churches—without first requiring that the latter renounce its false doctrines. As one of his advisors in his Patriarchate later wrote: The Schism of A.D. 1054, which has divided the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, is no longer valid. It has been erased from the history and life of the two Churches by the mutual agreement and signatures of the Patriarch of Constantinople, Athenagoras I, and the Patriarch of the West, Pope Paul W. 4 In December of 1968, Patriarch Athenagoras announced that he had inserted Pope Paul VIs name into the Diptychs, a therefore signifying that the Pope was in communion with the Orthodox Church.

Since Orthodoxy has no single infallible head like Roman Catholicism, the Patriarch could not really accomplish this without the common consent of the Orthodox world. There were some who hailed Patriarch Athenagoras as a prophet of a new age, even calling for his canonization while he was still alive, but most of the Local Orthodox Churches did not go along with him. As in former eras when hierarchs betrayed the Orthodox Faith, those who truly loved that Faith remained vigilant and thereby guarded it against theological and dogmatic taint. Among the most prominent opponents of Patriarch Athenagoras unionist program were the chief hierarch of the Orthodox Church of Greece, Archbishop Chrysostomos; the clairvoyant and miracle-working Greek elder, Archimandrite Philotheos Zervakos (+1980); and the renowned Serbian theologian, Archimandrite Justin Popovich (+1979). b

During the years 1966 to 1969, Eugene and Gleb published articles in The Orthodox Word showing how Patriarch Athenagoras had gone astray and calling him to return to genuine Orthodoxy 6 In order to place contemporary events in historical perspective, in 1967 they also published material by and about St. Mark of Ephesus, the great confessor of Orthodoxy who in the fifteenth century had thwarted an attempt to unite the Orthodox Faith with Latin error at the false Council of Florence. 7

Recalling the initial response to their articles about Patriarch Athenagoras, Eugene later wrote: In our early issues when we began to get complaints about being so outspoken about Patriarch Athenagoras ... etc., we went to Viadika John in some doubt—perhaps we really shouldnt be so outspoken? But glory be to God, Vladika John fully supported us and blessed us to continue in the same spirit. 8

Since they lived in America, the brothers also felt obliged to publish pleas to the chief hierarch of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Archbishop lakovos. Calling Patriarch Athenagoras the spiritual father of the renaissance of Orthodoxy; 9 Archbishop lakovos closely followed his policies, participating in various ecumenical events and services.

 

Being the philosopher that he was, Eugene was not satisfied to merely know about the errors of modern ecumenism, to know that they were foreign to the consciousness of the true Church of Christ. He wanted to go deeper, to discern why people like Patriarch Athenagoras and Archbishop lakovos believed as they did, what caused this obvious reorientation of the traditional view of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The statements of these hierarchs themselves gave him a clue.

We have seen how Eugene felt about the New Christianity; the scarcely disguised humanism and worldly idealism of contemporary Roman popes. One can imagine, then, how it disturbed him to witness hierarchs of his own Orthodox Church following the lead of these popes, espousing the very same fashionable ideas. Behind these ideas, Eugene saw what in the early 1960s he had identified as the first corollary of Nihilism: the concept of the inauguration of a new age, a new kind of time.

In a letter of 1970, Eugene wrote to a priest who had offered to compose an article on the ideas of Patriarch Athenagoras and Archbishop Iakovos:

    (Several years ago I myself began an investigation into what might be called the basic philosophy of the twentieth century. This exists now partly in unfinished manuscript, partly in my mind; but I pursued the question far enough, I think, to discover that there is, after all, such a basic philosophy in spite of all the anarchy of modern thought. And once I had grasped the essence of this philosophy (which, I believe, was expressed most clearly by Nietzsche and by a character of Dostoyevsky in the phrase: God is dead, therefore man becomes God and everything is possible—the heart of modern nihilism, anarchism, and anti-Christianity) everything else fell into place, and modern philosophers, writers, artists, etc., became understandable as more or less clearly, more or less directly, expressing this philosophy.

    And so it was that the other day, as I was reading Archbishop Iakovos article in the July-August Orthodox Observer: A New Epoch? that I suddenly felt that I had found an insight into the essence of lakovism. Is not, indeed, the basic heresy chiliasm? What else, indeed, could justify such immense changes and monstrous perversions in Orthodoxy except the concept that we are entering entirely new historical circumstances, an entirely new kind of time, in which the concepts of the past are no longer relevant, but we must be guided by the voices of the new time? Does not Fr. Patrinacos, in past issues of the Orthodox Observer, justify Patriarch Athenagoras—not as theologian, not as traditionalist, but precisely as prophet, as one whose heresies cannot be condemned because he already lives in the new time, ahead of his own times? Patriarch Athenagoras himself has been quoted as speaking of the coming of the Third Age of the Holy Spirit—a clearly chiliastic idea which has its chief recent champion in N. Berdyaev, and can be traced back directly to Joachim of Fiore, and indirectly to the Montanists. The whole idea of a new age, of course, penetrates every fiber of the last two centuries with their preoccupation with progress, and is the key idea of the very concept of Revolution (from French to Bolshevik), is the central idea of modern occultism (visible on the popular level in todays talk of the age of Aquarius, the astrological post-Christian age), and has owed its spread probably chiefly to Freemasonry (theres a Scottish Rite publication in America called New Age). c (I regret to say that the whole philosophy is also present in the American dollar bill with its masonic heritage, with its novus ordo seclorum and its unfinished pyramid, awaiting the thirteenth stone on top!) In Christian terms, it is the philosophy of Antichrist, the one who will turn the world upside down and change the times and seasons.... And the whole concept of ecumenism is, of course, permeated with this heresy and the refounding of the Church. d

    The recent thought of Constantinople (to give it a dignified name!) is full either of outright identification of the Kingdom of Heaven with the new epoch (the wolf lying down with the lamb) or of emphasis on an entirely new kind of time and/or Christianity that makes previous Christian standards obsolete: e new morality, new religion, springtime of Christianity, refounding the Church, the need no longer to pray for crops or weather because Man controls these now, f etc.

    How appropriate, too, for the chiliast cause that we live (since 1917) in the post-Constantinian age g for it was at the beginning of that age, i.e., at the time of the golden age of the Fathers, that the heresy of chiliasm was crushed., h And indeed, together with the Revolutions that have toppled the Constantinian era, we have seen a reform of Christianity that does away with the Church as an instrument of Gods grace for mens eternal salvation and replaces it with the social gospel. Archbishop lakovos article has not one word about salvation, but is concerned only for the world. 10

Endnotes

The following abbreviations have been used in these Notes:

ER—Eugene Rose

FSR—Fr. Seraphim Rose

LER—Letter of Eugene Rose

OW—The Orthodox Word

Letter, Journal and Chronicle dates are according to the civil calendar, except where a Church feast day is indicated, in which case both the Church (Julian or "Old" Calendar) and civil (Gregorian or "New" Calendar) dates are given.

1. St. Athanasius the Great, Letter to Dracontius.

2. FSR, The Orthodox Revival in Russia as an Inspiration for American Orthodoxy, a talk given on Sept. 1, 1980, at the University of California, Santa Cruz. In OW no. 138 (1988), P. 45.

3. Constantine Cavarnos, Ecumenism Examined (Belmont, Mass.: Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies, 1996), pp. 11, 28-30. Akropolis, June 29, 1963.

4. Archbishop Athenagoras Kokkinakis, The Thyateira Confession (Leighton Buzzard, Great Britain: The Faith Press, 1975), pp. 28, 68.

5. See Archimandrite Philotheos Zervakos, A Desperate Appeal to the Ecumenical Patriarch, OW no. 18 (1968), pp. 11-20.

6. The articles began to be published in OW no. 7 (Jan.-Feb., 1966), including ER, Orthodoxy in the Contemporary World: The Latest Step Toward Union.

7. Archimandrite Amvrosy Pogodin, St. Mark of Ephesus and the False Union of Florence, OW no. 12 (1967), pp. 2-14; no. 13 (1967), pp. 45-52; no. 14 (1967), pp. 89-102; Encyclical Letter of St. Mark of Ephesus, OW, no. 13(1967), pp. 53-59; and Address of St. Mark of Ephesus on the Day of His Death, OW, no. 14 (1967), pp. 103-106.

8. LFSR to Fr. Neketas Palassis, June 25, 1972.

9. The Orthodox Observer, Feb. 1969. Quoted in ER, Translators Preface to An Open Letter to His Eminence lakovos, Greek Archbishop of North and South America, OW, 117 no.25 (1969), p.72.

10. LER to Fr. Michael, Sept. 12, 1970.
Footnotes

Webmaster note: These appeared as asterisks in the book.

a. Diptychs: official commemoration lists, kept by each Patriarch, which contain the names of the other Patriarchs whom he recognizes as Orthodox.

b. Now venerated as a saint in Serbia, Archimandrite Justin was a friend of Archbishop John Maximovitch when the latter lived in Serbia.

c. How prevalent has this term become in the years since Eugene wrote this!

d. In his 1967 Christmas message, Patriarch Athenagoras wrote: In the movement for union, it is not a question of one Church moving towards the other; rather, let us all together refound the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, coexisting in the East and the West.

e. After his first meeting with Pope Paul VI in 1963, Patriarch Athenagoras told an Italian news agency: I was especially impressed by the fact that the Pontiff has completely forgotten the ugly past and has made it possible for us to inaugurate a new epoch. Paul VI and I are reaping the firstfruits of this new epoch. (Katholiki no. 1375, Feb. 5, 1964.)

f. This last statement was made by the above-mentioned Fr. Patrinacos in The Orthodox Observer.

g. The Constantinian era began in the fourth century with the establishment of Orthodox Christian monarchy in Constantinople under Emperor Constantine; it ended in 1917 with the fall of the Orthodox monarchy of Moscow, the Third Rome, the successor of Constantinople.

h. At the Second Ecumenical Council of A.D, 381 (the first Council of Constantinople), the Holy Fathers condemned the heresy of chiliasm. They deliberately inserted an article in the Nicean Creed (and His Kingdom shall have no end) to counteract the false teaching that Christ will have a political, earthly reign of a thousand years. In more recent times chiliasm has become widespread in Protestant churches, which have rejected the Christianity of the Constantinian era (prior to the Reformation). Their expectations put them in danger of following Antichrist, who will set up an earthly Kingdom, claiming to be Christ.

From Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works (Platina, CA: St. Herman Press), pp. 394-398. Copyright 2003 by the St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, Platina, California. Posted on 1/2/2007.
“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #396 on: January 26, 2010, 07:50:35 PM »
PHILIP, Archbishop of New York and Metropolitan of All North America

..." I believe that Canon 28, historically, is a contextual canon and not a dogmatic one; it gave the city of Constantinople certain rights as the New Rome for secular, political reasons because it was the seat of the emperor."...

Do you all agree with him?


Of course: the Fathers were quite explicit on their reasoning on the elevation of New (and Old) Rome.  The plain language shows that.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #397 on: January 26, 2010, 08:10:12 PM »
The pope is the one who has united all religions into one global religion, which is the religion of the anti-christ.
Really? So there are no more Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Protestants, Hare Krishnas, Zoroastrians....They are all one religion now are they?

Ecumenism is one of the foundations for the NWO
Even if that were true, you still have to prove that the "New World Order" exists and define what it is.

Now this cannot be refuted:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1161.cfm
Um, yes, it is quite easily refuted. Firstly, there is no such thing as a "Shiva Priestess". Secondly, this is actually a photograph of the Papal Mass in India. The woman is giving the pope the traditional Indian greeting as an honoured guest by applying the tika to his forehead, and she is actually marking him with the sign of the Cross.

It is true, we have been yoked together with unbelievers
So this is about race and not Faith. Because Pope John Paul II allowed an Indian Roman Catholic Woman to greet him according to her custom, he is unequally yoked with unbelievers?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 08:11:00 PM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #398 on: January 26, 2010, 08:39:25 PM »
The pope is the one who has united all religions into one global religion, which is the religion of the anti-christ.
Really? So there are no more Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Protestants, Hare Krishnas, Zoroastrians....They are all one religion now are they?

Ecumenism is one of the foundations for the NWO
Even if that were true, you still have to prove that the "New World Order" exists and define what it is.

Now this cannot be refuted:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1161.cfm
Um, yes, it is quite easily refuted. Firstly, there is no such thing as a "Shiva Priestess". Secondly, this is actually a photograph of the Papal Mass in India. The woman is giving the pope the traditional Indian greeting as an honoured guest by applying the tika to his forehead, and she is actually marking him with the sign of the Cross.

It is true, we have been yoked together with unbelievers
So this is about race and not Faith. Because Pope John Paul II allowed an Indian Roman Catholic Woman to greet him according to her custom, he is unequally yoked with unbelievers?

She's Roman Catholic?!
I don't think so.

Why would we ever need to to united together anyways?

CONTROL, POWER, HERESIES.

Explain this:
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/new_JP2_photos.html
And This:
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m012rpRatzingerInMosque.html

My goodness look, dont be stupid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rTOjUVIOfg

You are out of your mind to think it was, ''The sign of the cross'' or that ''She was Catholic''

YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND.

May Christ help you.


http://www.romancatholicism.org/101-john-paul.htm

Rev. 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev. 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev. 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev. 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev. 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #399 on: January 26, 2010, 08:44:54 PM »
^Watching this is like watching a train wreck. You know you don't want to see the devestation, but you can't help but look.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 08:45:11 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #400 on: January 26, 2010, 08:45:12 PM »
Even the Catholics themselves know that its a fraud, and they are heretics themselves!

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/heresy_of_antipopes_john_paul_ii_and_benedict_xvi.php

“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #401 on: January 26, 2010, 08:50:59 PM »
Even the Catholics themselves know that its a fraud, and they are heretics themselves!

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/heresy_of_antipopes_john_paul_ii_and_benedict_xvi.php


That's it. You have convinced me. I am converting.  ::)
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Get_Behind_Me_Satan

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #402 on: January 26, 2010, 08:52:27 PM »
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/g09htDalaiLamaMexico_Vennari.html

2Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Cor. 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Cor. 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Cor. 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Cor. 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
“The testimonies of the western teachers I neither recognize or accept. I surmise that they are corrupted.
There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

St Mark Of Ephesus, Doctor of the church. (True Church)

Down with ecumenism!

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #403 on: January 26, 2010, 08:55:45 PM »
Even the Catholics themselves know that its a fraud, and they are heretics themselves!

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/heresy_of_antipopes_john_paul_ii_and_benedict_xvi.php

If you keep quoting sedevacantists, can Catholic's quote old believers and other Orthodox groups that would consider your Church graceless?
As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #404 on: January 26, 2010, 08:56:56 PM »
I have found that everyone is considered a graceless, schismatic, heretic by someone.   :D
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 08:57:07 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.