Author Topic: Ecumenism (opinion on news)  (Read 100300 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #180 on: January 20, 2010, 08:16:34 PM »
Alonso, why do you keep waffling from being ecumenical to being Romanist supremacist to being ecumenical again?
He's never "Romanist"; but he is always Catholic.

Romanism is a legitimate categorization of your religion regardless of whether Catholicism also is or not.
I think its a strange thing to call my church since her name is actually The Catholic Church.
No really, since I don't worship Rome.

Never said you did. Isms are not inherently indicated of what someone worships. "Romanism" refers to certain systematic relations to the Church of Rome, such as holding to its dogmatic tradition, submitting to its supposed supreme authority, etc.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #181 on: January 20, 2010, 08:50:34 PM »

I think its a strange thing to call my church since her name is actually The Catholic Church.

It is not strange if one realizes that I do not agree with the premise behind it naming itself that.

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,693
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #182 on: January 20, 2010, 08:55:20 PM »

I think its a strange thing to call my church since her name is actually The Catholic Church.

It is not strange if one realizes that I do not agree with the premise behind it naming itself that.

In the 19th Century it more normatively proclaimed itself 'The Holy Roman Church'.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #183 on: January 20, 2010, 09:05:19 PM »

I think its a strange thing to call my church since her name is actually The Catholic Church.

It is not strange if one realizes that I do not agree with the premise behind it naming itself that.

In the 19th Century it more normatively proclaimed itself 'The Holy Roman Church'.

Interesting. That seems to show that "Romanism" could be more than a descriptive term used to avoid using the term "Catholicism" but could even be considered as derived from the church referring to itself as the Roman church.

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,693
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #184 on: January 20, 2010, 09:23:55 PM »
Interesting. That seems to show that "Romanism" could be more than a descriptive term used to avoid using the term "Catholicism" but could even be considered as derived from the church referring to itself as the Roman church.

Honestly I think is a discourtesy to use labels toward another which they don't use of themselves. What you seem to be doing is attempting to insult Catholics without the real backbone to admit you are being rude toward guests on your forum.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #185 on: January 20, 2010, 09:51:20 PM »
Interesting. That seems to show that "Romanism" could be more than a descriptive term used to avoid using the term "Catholicism" but could even be considered as derived from the church referring to itself as the Roman church.

Honestly I think is a discourtesy to use labels toward another which they don't use of themselves. What you seem to be doing is attempting to insult Catholics without the real backbone to admit you are being rude toward guests on your forum.

No. That is a common assumption, but I am simply avoiding using "Catholic"/"Catholicism" out of a matter of conscience. I will apply it to the OO, and maybe the EO, but not Rome, at least not in a context where people are aware of the original usage of "Catholicism" in the period of the undivided Christendom.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 09:53:21 PM by deusveritasest »

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,693
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #186 on: January 20, 2010, 10:11:47 PM »
No. That is a common assumption, but I am simply avoiding using "Catholic"/"Catholicism" out of a matter of conscience. I will apply it to the OO, and maybe the EO, but not Rome, at least not in a context where people are aware of the original usage of "Catholicism" in the period of the undivided Christendom.

Ah, I see. So, your insult is motivated out of a self serving desire to be a peace with your conscience...  :D

You kids kill me.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #187 on: January 20, 2010, 10:14:44 PM »
No. That is a common assumption, but I am simply avoiding using "Catholic"/"Catholicism" out of a matter of conscience. I will apply it to the OO, and maybe the EO, but not Rome, at least not in a context where people are aware of the original usage of "Catholicism" in the period of the undivided Christendom.

Ah, I see. So, your insult is motivated out of a self serving desire to be a peace with your conscience...  :D

You kids kill me.

No, out of an objective respect for orthodoxy that compels us to not call Catholic what is not Catholic. It is not an insult.

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,693
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #188 on: January 20, 2010, 10:34:39 PM »
No, out of an objective respect for orthodoxy that compels us to not call Catholic what is not Catholic. It is not an insult.

My wife is Baptist... I could wake up every morning and out of an 'objective respect for Catholicism' I could be 'compelled' to label her an apostate but you know what...? I don't because my Faith isn't proven by my lack of respect toward others who honestly follow a path different from my own. I don't judge individuals by 'team shirts' but by their fruit we will know them.

I understand you are in the midst of your own 'conversion' and that often causes individuals to exercise intemperate zeal but your Spiritual Father should be exercising restraint on that... I'm frankly surprised so many here don't seem to have any sense of restraint on that. It breeds hubris and distracts one from their own sins as they project out error on to everyone else. I've seem this time and time again and I never find it compelling.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #189 on: January 20, 2010, 11:14:28 PM »

My wife is Baptist... I could wake up every morning and out of an 'objective respect for Catholicism' I could be 'compelled' to label her an apostate

How is that comparable?

You make it sound as if you would do that out of spite.

I'm not doing this out of spite.

And I don't see what would be the problem with calling your wife a Baptist. How does your Catholicism compel you to not call her a Baptist?

The name "Catholic" is particularly problematic because it contains a truth claim that you are the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church". There is no such bold truth claim in the name "Baptist".

Lastly, I told you what "Romanist" means. It conveys no real insulting meaning; it simply means that you are an adherent of the dogmatic tradition of Rome. "Apostate" is nowhere near as neutral.


I don't because my Faith isn't proven by my lack of respect toward others

My not willing to submit to your exclusive claim to be the Catholic Church of the Fathers has nothing to do with showing some general lack of respect.


I understand you are in the midst of your own 'conversion'

I already was Baptized and Chrismated into the EOC more than a year ago. The conversion I am currently undergoing is from EOy to OOy. A rather slight difference. So no, you've got the wrong impression.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #190 on: January 20, 2010, 11:53:00 PM »

Quote
but one Head, the Lord Jesus Himself, who has chosen one to take care of the church, St Peter, consoling it, purifying it and driving it to him with the Holy Spirit who acts in us until he comes back.

St. Peter's Catholic successor at present is our Patriarch Ignatius IV.


Yes I guess I know whom do you speak of, though I got confused ¿Who is the succesor?


The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic One:



Yes, he is sited at left of the Pope, ¿Wouldn´t he deserve to sit in the center? my lutheran friend
I don't know what Lutheran friend you have, but yes HB Ignatius deserves to sit in the center.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #191 on: January 20, 2010, 11:54:41 PM »
Now, Where are St Peter's bones?


Which one still confesses St. Peter's Faith?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alonso_castillo

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 360
  • Me when younger
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #192 on: January 21, 2010, 12:01:18 AM »
The Pope
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 12:04:21 AM by Alonso_castillo »
Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline Alonso_castillo

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 360
  • Me when younger
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #193 on: January 21, 2010, 12:02:32 AM »
Far from Middle east and oriental Europe, in China, Japan, India, Africa, South America, Oceania, western Europe and North, America, Every time you ask people for a Catholic Church, they immediately know that you refer to the communities linked to Pope.

The same happens in Holy Land, though, if you ask a fundamentalist from orthodoxy, he immediately knows what do you refer, but then he tries to correct you, saying "... You mean roman ..." but you don't intend to enter into a discussion, you know that he understand what you mean and just say: " …yes, Catholic…", then as he don't want to debate about he will point the place where you want to go.

Then everybody knows that Catholic is referred to christians linked to Pope, either they want to accept it or not
Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #194 on: January 21, 2010, 12:07:50 AM »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alonso_castillo

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 360
  • Me when younger
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #195 on: January 21, 2010, 12:08:48 AM »

Quote
but one Head, the Lord Jesus Himself, who has chosen one to take care of the church, St Peter, consoling it, purifying it and driving it to him with the Holy Spirit who acts in us until he comes back.

St. Peter's Catholic successor at present is our Patriarch Ignatius IV.


Yes I guess I know whom do you speak of, though I got confused ¿Who is the succesor?


The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic One:



Yes, he is sited at left of the Pope, ¿Wouldn´t he deserve to sit in the center? my lutheran friend
I don't know what Lutheran friend you have, but yes HB Ignatius deserves to sit in the center.
You see, you know whom I am refering to.

If orthodox patriarch deservs to sit in the middle , I wouldn´t have as a patriarch acepted to be sited in a less honor place. Because I would be sending a false message. Don't you agree?
Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #196 on: January 21, 2010, 12:09:28 AM »
Far from Middle east and oriental Europe, in China, Japan, India, Africa, South America, Oceania, western Europe and North, America, Every time you ask people for a Catholic Church, they immediately know that you refer to the communities linked to Pope.

The same happens in Holy Land, though, if you ask a fundamentalist from orthodoxy, he immediately knows what do you refer, but then he tries to correct you, saying "... You mean roman ..." but you don't intend to enter into a discussion, you know that he understand what you mean and just say: " …yes, Catholic…", then as he don't want to debate about he will point the place where you want to go.

Then everybody knows that Catholic is referred to christians linked to Pope, either they want to accept it or not

So sure about that are you?  Have you been any of said places to test that out?  You imaginary conversation in the Holy Land seems to indicate you haven't.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #197 on: January 21, 2010, 12:13:39 AM »

Quote
but one Head, the Lord Jesus Himself, who has chosen one to take care of the church, St Peter, consoling it, purifying it and driving it to him with the Holy Spirit who acts in us until he comes back.

St. Peter's Catholic successor at present is our Patriarch Ignatius IV.


Yes I guess I know whom do you speak of, though I got confused ¿Who is the succesor?


The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic One:



Yes, he is sited at left of the Pope, ¿Wouldn´t he deserve to sit in the center? my lutheran friend
I don't know what Lutheran friend you have, but yes HB Ignatius deserves to sit in the center.
You see, you know whom I am refering to.

If orthodox patriarch deservs to sit in the middle , I wouldn´t have as a patriarch acepted to be sited in a less honor place. Because I would be sending a false message. Don't you agree?
No. Mark 10:43.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alonso_castillo

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 360
  • Me when younger
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #198 on: January 21, 2010, 12:23:09 AM »
Far from Middle east and oriental Europe, in China, Japan, India, Africa, South America, Oceania, western Europe and North, America, Every time you ask people for a Catholic Church, they immediately know that you refer to the communities linked to Pope.

The same happens in Holy Land, though, if you ask a fundamentalist from orthodoxy, he immediately knows what do you refer, but then he tries to correct you, saying "... You mean roman ..." but you don't intend to enter into a discussion, you know that he understand what you mean and just say: " …yes, Catholic…", then as he don't want to debate about he will point the place where you want to go.

Then everybody knows that Catholic is referred to christians linked to Pope, either they want to accept it or not

So sure about that are you?  Have you been any of said places to test that out?  You imaginary conversation in the Holy Land seems to indicate you haven't.

My Mother has been ther It happened to her.
Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #199 on: January 21, 2010, 12:38:08 AM »
Far from Middle east and oriental Europe, in China, Japan, India, Africa, South America, Oceania, western Europe and North, America, Every time you ask people for a Catholic Church, they immediately know that you refer to the communities linked to Pope.

The same happens in Holy Land, though, if you ask a fundamentalist from orthodoxy, he immediately knows what do you refer, but then he tries to correct you, saying "... You mean roman ..." but you don't intend to enter into a discussion, you know that he understand what you mean and just say: " …yes, Catholic…", then as he don't want to debate about he will point the place where you want to go.

Then everybody knows that Catholic is referred to christians linked to Pope, either they want to accept it or not

So sure about that are you?  Have you been any of said places to test that out?  You imaginary conversation in the Holy Land seems to indicate you haven't.

My Mother has been ther It happened to her.
Then she must have asked a tourist because in the Holy Land 1) yes your churches are called "kathuliiki": the Catholic Churches, as in our One, Holy, CATHOLIC Orthodox Church "jaami'i":"kathuliki" is only a foreign term for a foreign Church in the Holy Land 2) Ruumi, "Roman" means Greek.  The Patriarchates Official title is "Sacred Jerusalem Patriarchate of the Orthodox Romans"
http://www.jerusalem-patriarchate.info/ar/welcome.htm
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #200 on: January 21, 2010, 12:47:12 AM »
Now, Where are St Peter's bones?


Which one still confesses St. Peter's Faith?

The lefty.  ;)

Perhaps the righty as well. But that's a complicated issue.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 12:49:06 AM by deusveritasest »

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #201 on: January 21, 2010, 12:51:18 AM »

Far from Middle east and oriental Europe, in China, Japan, India, Africa, South America, Oceania, western Europe and North, America, Every time you ask people for a Catholic Church, they immediately know that you refer to the communities linked to Pope.

The same happens in Holy Land, though, if you ask a fundamentalist from orthodoxy, he immediately knows what do you refer, but then he tries to correct you, saying "... You mean roman ..." but you don't intend to enter into a discussion, you know that he understand what you mean and just say: " …yes, Catholic…", then as he don't want to debate about he will point the place where you want to go.

Then everybody knows that Catholic is referred to christians linked to Pope, either they want to accept it or not

Only because you have stolen and monopolized the title. Not necessarily because they recognize you as the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church".


Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #203 on: January 21, 2010, 01:03:33 AM »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alonso_castillo

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 360
  • Me when younger
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #204 on: January 21, 2010, 01:25:06 AM »
Ok Guys, show us the tomb of St Peter.
Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #205 on: January 21, 2010, 01:30:28 AM »

Ok Guys, show us the tomb of St Peter.

Why?

Offline Alonso_castillo

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 360
  • Me when younger
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #206 on: January 21, 2010, 01:39:00 AM »

Ok Guys, show us the tomb of St Peter.

Why?

Because St Peter, was Bishop of Antiochy and he was the First of Apostles there, but He didn't lasted there until he was died, so when moving to Rome, he remined as the First Apostle, and he died there  as the first Apostle.  So His place was not left in Antiochy but in Rome. look:


« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 01:41:15 AM by Alonso_castillo »
Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #207 on: January 21, 2010, 01:41:14 AM »
Ok Guys, show us the tomb of St Peter.
You mean the Metochion of Constantinople?


I have to admit the only tombs we have are empty:
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #208 on: January 21, 2010, 01:42:44 AM »

Ok Guys, show us the tomb of St Peter.

Why?

Because St Peter, was Bishop of Antiochy and he was the First of Apostles there, but He didn't lasted there until he was died, so when moving to Rome, he remined as the First Apostle, and he died there  as the first Apostle.  So His place was not left in Antiochy but in Rome. look:


As Father posted Pope St. Gregory claimed his place was in Rome, Alexandria and Anitoch.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alonso_castillo

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 360
  • Me when younger
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #209 on: January 21, 2010, 01:46:03 AM »
Ok Guys, show us the tomb of St Peter.
You mean the Metochion of Constantinople?


I have to admit the only tombs we have are empty:



The empty tumb kept by muslims?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 01:51:45 AM by Alonso_castillo »
Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline Alonso_castillo

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 360
  • Me when younger
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #210 on: January 21, 2010, 01:48:04 AM »
For your answer I guess that you read in bible that the fundaments of church were the empty tumb of Christ, ¿Do you?

1 cor 3:11

ef 2:20
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 01:57:26 AM by Alonso_castillo »
Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #211 on: January 21, 2010, 02:19:56 AM »
Holy Protestors Force Cancellation of Catholic Wedding

By Charles Charalambous
Cyprus Mail
October 20, 2009

BANNER-WAVING Orthodox protestors yesterday put a stop to a Catholic wedding ceremony at Ayios Yiorgios church in Chlorakas after shouting a string of abuse at the priest and others in the church.


Unfortunately on Cyprus some churches rent out their premises fro "tourist weddings" which are hugely profitable for the churches and the bishop takes his percentage.   This abuse is the cause of this particular protest.

The Catholics have a very nice church of their own in this location and there is no need for them to rent Orthodox churches.

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #212 on: January 21, 2010, 04:03:22 AM »
This is a great point:

With acuity, the same Zizoulas, commenting to AsiaNews on the situation of the "Christian world" of today, said: "The Christian world today has many bishops, a few theologians and even less ecclesiological knowledge".


There is a belief abroad among the Orthodox that Met Zizioulas and Cardinal Kasper are engaged in an attempt to derail traditional Orthodox ecclesiology - at the last two Plenary Sessions, at Belgrade and Ravenna. We cannot judge waht happened last October on Cyprus since there has been no information released - this is because the Orthodox bishops clamped down on the dialogue and are insisting that no statements may be released without synodal approval from the various Orthodox Churches.  Specifically, the concern centres on Met Zizioulas' and Cardinal Kasper's attempt to impose a "Global Protos" or "Universal Primus" on Orthodoxy which will bring Orthodox ecclesiology into line with the Roman and make an eventual union so much easier to accomplish.

It won't fly. It is simply too alien to Orthodox tradition. Those who perceive this have an obligation from above to speak out and not fear such shameful threats as this Metropolitan wrote last year against the bishops of the Church of Greece.  It is to the great credit of the bishops that they are now moving to take control of the dialogue and will not leave it in the hands of a few people with their own agendas.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 04:04:45 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #213 on: January 21, 2010, 04:12:10 AM »

Ok Guys, show us the tomb of St Peter.

Why?

Because St Peter, was Bishop of Antiochy and he was the First of Apostles there, but He didn't lasted there until he was died, so when moving to Rome, he remined as the First Apostle, and he died there  as the first Apostle.  So His place was not left in Antiochy but in Rome. look:



Just because Rome may have been the last place that Peter established a see doesn't mean that that is the only of the sees he established that has legitimate succession to him. The facts seem to indicate otherwise.

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #214 on: January 21, 2010, 04:37:26 AM »

Just because Rome may have been the last place that Peter established a see doesn't mean that that is the only of the sees he established that has legitimate succession to him. The facts seem to indicate otherwise.

Please have a look at this message. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24191.msg371790.html#msg371790

It explains the belief of the Coptic Orthodox Church that Peter was not the founder of the Church in Rome but he travelled there only 2 years before his death, in pursuit of Simon Magus.


Today (20 January) is the commemoration of St. Fechin of Fobhar
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints


Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #215 on: January 21, 2010, 04:49:51 AM »

Just because Rome may have been the last place that Peter established a see doesn't mean that that is the only of the sees he established that has legitimate succession to him. The facts seem to indicate otherwise.

Please have a look at this message. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24191.msg371790.html#msg371790

It explains the belief of the Coptic Orthodox Church that Peter was not the founder of the Church in Rome but he travelled there only 2 years before his death, in pursuit of Simon Magus.


Today (20 January) is the commemoration of St. Fechin of Fobhar
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints


Thanks. I think I've seen that document before. This is a good place to bring it up. I naturally tend to be skeptical of the idea that Peter was the founder of the Church of Rome given that there is no biblical account of him having gone there. Hence why I wrote "...may have...". I think the foundation of the church of Rome by Paul should be emphasized more given how important he was and given that his having been a founder of the church there is actually entirely clear.

Offline Irish Hermit

  • Kibernetski Kaludjer
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #216 on: January 21, 2010, 04:55:05 AM »

Just because Rome may have been the last place that Peter established a see doesn't mean that that is the only of the sees he established that has legitimate succession to him. The facts seem to indicate otherwise.

Please have a look at this message. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24191.msg371790.html#msg371790

It explains the belief of the Coptic Orthodox Church that Peter was not the founder of the Church in Rome but he travelled there only 2 years before his death, in pursuit of Simon Magus.


Today (20 January) is the commemoration of St. Fechin of Fobhar
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints


Thanks. I think I've seen that document before. This is a good place to bring it up. I naturally tend to be skeptical of the idea that Peter was the founder of the Church of Rome given that there is no biblical account of him having gone there. Hence why I wrote "...may have...". I think the foundation of the church of Rome by Paul should be emphasized more given how important he was and given that his having been a founder of the church there is actually entirely clear.

I wager $10 to a hundred that LBK is right now penning a message  ;D to say that our liturgical deposit gives equal honour to Peter and Paul as founders of the Church of Rome.  I would think that we can trust the liturgical deposit and our tradition on this point.  But I find the viewpoint of the Copts fascinating all the same.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,550
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #217 on: January 21, 2010, 05:40:03 AM »
Father, you truly are clairvoyant!  ;D :laugh:

From the Vigil for Apostles Peter and Paul on the matter of Peter, Paul and Rome:

With what spiritual songs should we praise Peter and Paul? The sharp mouths of the dread sword of the Spirit that slaughter godlessness; the radiant ornaments of Rome; the delights of the whole inhabited world; the reasoning tablets, written by God, of the New Testament, which in Zion Christ proclaimed, who has great mercy.

A joyous feast has shone out today on the ends of the earth, the all-honoured memorial of the wisest Apostles and their princes, Peter and Paul; and so Rome dances and rejoices. Let us also, brethren, celebrate in songs and psalms this all-revered day, as we cry out to them: Hail, Peter, Apostle and true friend of your teacher, Christ our God. Hail, Paul, well-loved, herald of the faith and teacher of the inhabited world. Holy pair, chosen by God, as you have boldness, implore Christ our God that our souls may be saved.

What dungeon did not hold you prisoner? What Church did not have you as an orator? Damascus extols you, O Paul, for it knew you blinded by the Light; and Rome, which received your blood, boasts in you; but Tarsus, your birthplace, rejoices yet more with love and honour. O Peter, rock of the Faith, and Paul, boast of the whole world, coming together from Rome, make us steadfast.


As for their recognition as equals, IIRC there should be a post of mine where the equality of Peter and Paul is made clear through the Vigil text.

EDIT: Here it is: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14723.msg230684.html#msg230684
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 05:43:22 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #218 on: January 21, 2010, 08:29:41 AM »
Ok Guys, show us the tomb of St Peter.
You mean the Metochion of Constantinople?


I have to admit the only tombs we have are empty:



The empty tumb kept by muslims?
I got to stay a week in the one Church for a week.  The keepers were all Christian, though the polic officer was Druze.  What are you talking about?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #219 on: January 21, 2010, 09:43:01 AM »

Ok Guys, show us the tomb of St Peter.

Why?

Because St Peter, was Bishop of Antiochy and he was the First of Apostles there, but He didn't lasted there until he was died, so when moving to Rome, he remined as the First Apostle, and he died there  as the first Apostle.  So His place was not left in Antiochy but in Rome. look:



Just because Rome may have been the last place that Peter established a see doesn't mean that that is the only of the sees he established that has legitimate succession to him. The facts seem to indicate otherwise.


Just because Rome may have been the last place that Peter established a see doesn't mean that that is the only of the sees he established that has legitimate succession to him. The facts seem to indicate otherwise.

Please have a look at this message. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24191.msg371790.html#msg371790

It explains the belief of the Coptic Orthodox Church that Peter was not the founder of the Church in Rome but he travelled there only 2 years before his death, in pursuit of Simon Magus.


Today (20 January) is the commemoration of St. Fechin of Fobhar
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints



We have no evidence of St. Peter founding the Church of Rome. As the above thread quotes the Apostolic Constitutions, "Pope" Linus was ordained by St. Paul (and predeceased St. Peter).  St. Paul, writing to the Romans in 55, doesn't include St. Peter among the long list of those he greets. According to Suetonius and the Bible (Acts 18:2), Christians had already appeared in Rome 6 years earlier.  Although traditions refer to St. Peter pursuing Simon Magnus into Rome during Claudius' reign you would think that the NT would have thought it important enough to record, if St. Peter's eternal line was supposed to be enshrined there.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,246
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #220 on: January 21, 2010, 09:53:48 AM »
Quote
Although traditions refer to St. Peter pursuing Simon Magnus into Rome during Claudius' reign you would think that the NT would have thought it important enough to record, if St. Peter's eternal line was supposed to be enshrined there.

It's usually those who oppose Christianity, or sola scripturists, who use the "If it was really important the Bible would have said something about this..." argument. Interesting to hear it coming from an Orthodox Christian. :)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 09:54:07 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #221 on: January 21, 2010, 10:03:48 AM »
Quote
Although traditions refer to St. Peter pursuing Simon Magnus into Rome during Claudius' reign you would think that the NT would have thought it important enough to record, if St. Peter's eternal line was supposed to be enshrined there.

It's usually those who oppose Christianity, or sola scripturists, who use the "If it was really important the Bible would have said something about this..." argument. Interesting to hear it coming from an Orthodox Christian. :)
It just seems odd in the context that Revelation thinks it important to mention his martyrdom (John 21:18), his mission in Asia Minor (I Peter 1:1), his going to Jerusalem for St. James' judgement (Acts 15), his presence at Rome (I Peter 5:13) and a list of those in the Church of Rome c. 55 (Romans 15) doesn't mention a thing about the founding of the "papacy," which as dogma, the Bible would have to say something about it.John 20:30-21.  Not even an allusion to Rome becoming the axis of the Christian universe.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,246
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #222 on: January 21, 2010, 10:16:46 AM »
Well, I'd agree that you've made a good point there.  :)

Offline Alonso_castillo

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 360
  • Me when younger
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #223 on: January 21, 2010, 10:18:05 AM »
This is a great point:

With acuity, the same Zizoulas, commenting to AsiaNews on the situation of the "Christian world" of today, said: "The Christian world today has many bishops, a few theologians and even less ecclesiological knowledge".


There is a belief abroad among the Orthodox that Met Zizioulas and Cardinal Kasper are engaged in an attempt to derail traditional Orthodox ecclesiology - at the last two Plenary Sessions, at Belgrade and Ravenna. We cannot judge waht happened last October on Cyprus since there has been no information released - this is because the Orthodox bishops clamped down on the dialogue and are insisting that no statements may be released without synodal approval from the various Orthodox Churches.  Specifically, the concern centres on Met Zizioulas' and Cardinal Kasper's attempt to impose a "Global Protos" or "Universal Primus" on Orthodoxy which will bring Orthodox ecclesiology into line with the Roman and make an eventual union so much easier to accomplish.

It won't fly. It is simply too alien to Orthodox tradition. Those who perceive this have an obligation from above to speak out and not fear such shameful threats as this Metropolitan wrote last year against the bishops of the Church of Greece.  It is to the great credit of the bishops that they are now moving to take control of the dialogue and will not leave it in the hands of a few people with their own agendas.


We catholics are very reluctant to think that the Catholic Church can work as desmembred like orthodoxy, with not a commun program of apostolate, we can see in orthodoxy a real mess, disputes of diaspora bishops, that living in the same city ,don't have communion of goods, each community works for its own porpuses, ¿Is that correct that a single city can be leaded by 4 different bishops only justified by ethnical presence of diverse groups? That sounds stupid.

For an example, lets see orthodoxy in Toronto.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 10:20:31 AM by Alonso_castillo »
Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,246
Re: Ecumenism (opinion on news)
« Reply #224 on: January 21, 2010, 10:23:24 AM »
Quote
we can see in orthodoxy areal mess, disputes of diaspora bishops, that living in the same city ,don't have communion of goods, each community works for its own porpuses,

So you don't like historical realities of how Christianity actually worked in practice (for better or worse), but instead you prefer utopian theories of how you'd like it to work. I understand ;)

Quote
¿Is that correct that a single city cand be leaded by 4 different bishops only justified by ethnical presence os diverse groups? That sounds stupid.

Yes. And it is not anything like, say, the times when multiple men all claimed to be Pope of Rome. It is not anything like it, because at least in the Orthodox case the bishops are in communion with each other, despite the mess having to do with who has rightful jurisdiction.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 10:24:27 AM by Asteriktos »