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Alonso_castillo
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« on: January 15, 2010, 05:48:45 PM »

Lets review the news:

Ecumenical Patriarch greets Vatican delegation on Feastday of the Apostle Andrew the First Called
Istanbul, Turkey
11/30/2009

His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew addressed a Vatican delegation representing Pope Benedict XVI at the Thronal Feast of the Ecumenical Patriarchate on November 30, 2009.

The delegation, led by Cardinal Walter Kasper also delivered greetings to His All Holiness on behalf of Pope Benedict.

The Ecumenical Patriarch's greeting on the feast of St. Andrew the First Called can be read below:

Your Eminence Cardinal Walter Kasper, representative of His Holiness the Pope and Bishop of Rome, Benedict XVI, and your honorable entourage,

It is with great joy that we welcome you once again to the courtyard of the Church of New Rome in order to concelebrate the sacred memory of its founder and protector Saint Andrew the First-Called of the Apostles. We express our heartfelt gratitude to our beloved brother in the Lord, His Holiness Pope Benedict of Old Rome, who deigned to delegate his representatives to the Thronal feast of our Church, following the custom established decades ago for an exchange of visitations during the patronal feasts of our two ancient and apostolic Churches as confirmation of their desire to lift the impediments, accumulated over a millennium and preventing the fullness of communion among them. We attribute great symbolical significance to your presence here inasmuch as it also reveals -- in a deeply formal manner -- the desire of the most holy Church of Rome to do whatever it can on its part, so that we may rediscover our unity in the same faith and sacramental communion according to the will of Him who has called us to unity "so that the world may believe." (John 17.21)

As is known, St. Andrew the First-Called of the apostles, whom we celebrate today, was the brother of St. Peter the chief among the apostles; together, they knew Christ and believed in Him. The two brothers held this faith in common; the two Churches, which they founded and sanctified by means of their preaching and martyrdom, I did also hold this faith in common. This same faith was proclaimed as doctrine by our common Church Fathers, who gathered from east and west in ecumenical councils, where they transmitted it as an invaluable treasure to our Churches in order that we might build upon this faith our unity in Christ. It is this same faith, preserved intact for an entire millennium both in the east and the west, which we are again called to establish as the basis of our unity, cleansing it from any chance addition or alteration, so that "with one soul and one mind" (Phil. 2.2) we may proceed to communion in the divine Eucharist, wherein lies the fullness of the unity of the Church of Christ.

This journey toward achieving full communion, as enjoyed by our Churches in common during the first millennium, has already commenced with the dialogue of love and truth, and continues by God's grace despite occasional difficulties. It is with vigilant concern and unceasing prayer that we follow the process of the ongoing official Theological Dialogue between our two Churches, co-chaired by Your Eminence, and now embarking upon the examination of critical ecclesiological issues, such as the question of primacy in general and that of the bishop of Rome in particular. Everyone is aware that this thorny issue proved a scandalous contention in the course of relations between our two Churches, which is why the eradication of this impediment from among us will surely greatly facilitate our journey toward unity. We are, therefore, convinced that the study of Church history during the first millennium, at least with regard to this matter, will also provide the touchstone for the further evaluation of later developments during the second millennium, which unfortunately led our Churches to greater estrangement and intensified our division.

In a world shattered by contrasts and conflicts, the exchange of peaceful and constructive dialogue constitutes the only way of achieving reconciliation and unity. In the apostolic passage read during this morning's Divine Liturgy, the Apostles are promoted as an example of utter humility in imitation of the crucified Lord: "When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; when slandered, we speak kindly. We have become like the rubbish of the world, the dregs of all things, to this very day." (1 Cor. 4. 12-13) If this ethos of humility must prevail in the relations of the faithful toward the persecutors of the Church, how much more so should it prevail in the relations among Christians themselves! The peaceful resolution of existing differences in inter-Christian relations by no means implies estrangement from truth. For truth does not fear dialogue; on the contrary, truth employs dialogue as a means of becoming acceptable even to those who for various reasons reject it. Hatred and fanaticism provoke the defensive entrenchment of each side in the blind persistence on its own positions and opinions, while consolidating differences and obliterating all hope of reconciliation. Such an attitude is absolutely unrelated to the spirit of the Christ's Gospel and the apostolic example. For only by "speaking the truth in love" (Eph. 4.15) do we truly speak the truth, just as only by loving truthfully (2 John 1) do we truly love. A dialogue imbued by a sincere spirit of humility guarantees this blessed combination, which comprises the only divinely-inspired way for all those who wish to be imitators of the Apostles. (1 Cor. 4.16)

It is this spirit of sincere and loving dialogue that the Church of Christ itself is today called to implement in its relations among divided Christians, while at the same time proclaiming it to all persons of good will, wherever they happen to be. We know from bitter experience that religion can easily be misused as a banner of fanaticism and conflict among people. We have personally emphasized on numerous occasions that war in the name of religion is war against religion. This is why interfaith dialogue is particularly mandatory in our age, without entailing any compromise in one's religious convictions. It is this dialogue that is encouraged and cultivated by our Ecumenical Patriarchate, which contributes in this way to the consolidation of peace in our contemporary world.

Your Eminence Cardinal Kasper and your honorable entourage,

Through the order established by the holy Ecumenical Councils, Divine Providence has assigned to the Church of this City the ministry of serving as the first-throne of the Orthodox Church, bearing the responsibility of coordinating and expressing the unanimity of the local holy Orthodox Churches. With this responsibility, then, we are now working diligently in preparation for the Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church, by activating the appropriate preconciliar instruments. Thus, only last June, we successfully convened the 4th Preconciliar Panorthodox Consultation, which dealt with the question of the Orthodox Diaspora; soon, we shall convene the Preparatory Commission for the study and preparation of other issues for the Great Council. The purpose of this entire endeavor is to forge the unity of the Orthodox Church, so that "with one mind and one heart" it may contribute to the witness of the Gospel in our modern world. In this effort and overall variously difficult service, the Church of Constantinople always considers the support of the Old Church of Rome as invaluable, and so with great love we also direct our thought there at this moment.

Greeting you -- and through you, him who sent you here, namely our beloved brother in the Lord -- with a sacred embrace, we pray that the Lord our God, through the intercessions of the Holy glorious and First-Called Apostle Andrew, will protect His Church from all evil, guiding it to the fulfillment of His divine will.

Welcome here among us, beloved brothers!

Any comment?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 05:50:37 PM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2010, 10:15:40 PM »

I am pleased that dialogue continues between the East and the West.
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2010, 11:34:02 PM »

The more I hear about this upcoming "Great and Holy Council" the more nervous it makes me.
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2010, 11:47:29 PM »

The more I hear about this upcoming "Great and Holy Council" the more nervous it makes me.

They've been trying to put this Council together for nearly 50 years now. When will it happen... 2060?  Wink
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2010, 11:53:08 PM »

The more I hear about this upcoming "Great and Holy Council" the more nervous it makes me.

They've been trying to put this Council together for nearly 50 years now. When will it happen... 2060?  Wink
Lord willing, never.
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2010, 12:14:02 AM »


The more I hear about this upcoming "Great and Holy Council" the more nervous it makes me.

Why?
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2010, 04:15:21 AM »


The more I hear about this upcoming "Great and Holy Council" the more nervous it makes me.

Why?

The Patriarch of Micklegarth Bartholomew I is dead keen on holding this Great and Holy Council.  Some of us find his enthusiasm surprising.

At the time this agenda was created at Constantinople's Chambesy Centre in the 1970s many of the Churches were under the heel of Communist and Socialist regimes.   It was expected that their participation in the proposed Great and Holy Council (possibly to be accepted as the 8th Ecumenical) would be fairly minimal and any delegates selected and controlled by their home governments.

Now the situation is much different.  The once unhappy situation of Russia and Serbia and Bulgaria has been reversed.  These are now Churches bouncing with a new vitality and Russia in particular has increased its membership by millions of faithful, tens of thousands of churches and priests and hundreds of bishops.

There is a possibility that Russia will mount a strong challenge at the Council to the ranking of the Churches in the diptychs.  I would not expect it to go for first place, supplanting Constantinople, but I wouldn't be surprised if it tries for second place, pushing Alexandria down to 3rd place.

Moscow will also want to closely examine the whole question of "primacy" in Orthodoxy.  Constantinople has made this inevitable since it promoted it so strongly in Ravenna in 2007 at the 10th meeting of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.  Two years earlier at the 9th meeting in Belgrade it was also pushing the primacy issue.   The dispute created at Ravenna 2007 about the introduction of a "Global Protos" or "Global Primus" for Orthodoxy will spill over into the Great Council.   Constantinople may find itself rebuked and even under outright attack for this new claim which would alter orthodox ecclesiology.  It is not just a matter of administration but a foundational alteration to our theology.   We live in interesting times.

Russia will also place the matter of the Bp Basil Osborne affair on the agenda.  This will involve hard decisions being adopted about the scope of Constantinople's claimed right of "eccliton" in the modern world.

All in all, the Council promises to cause utter chaos among the Orthodox Churches.  This is the reason Fr Justin Popovic wrote so strongly against calling this Council.  It will serve to introduce major tensions and even schism into the Church.  I agree with Fr Justin.  Let sleeping dogs lie.  We don't need this Council.

People in the New World get upset with the idea of abandoning the proposed Council.  They expect it to resolve the administrative overlapping in America.   It may and it may not.   The American Church constitutes less than 1% of global Orthodoxy.   Its problems simply do not need the convocation of an Ecumenical Council.  They can be handled on a much lower level.

A part of me, the untamed Irish part which enjoys a donnybrook, will enjoy the brawling which is likely to erupt when the Great Council gets to consider the diptychs.  The speech at Holy Cross in March of last year by the Very Reverend Archimandrite Elpidophoros is just one of Constantinople's opening salvos.   The other part of me trembles, as did the holy Father Justin (Popovic)* for the damage which the Patriarchs could do to the holy Church and her unity.

Well, there you are... thoughts from Middle Earth.

-oOo-

* "On a Summoning of the Great Council of the Orthodox Church"
Archimandrite Justin Popovich
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/stjustin_council.aspx

 

 
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2010, 04:22:48 AM »

Quote
There is a possibility that Russia will mount a strong challenge at the Council to the ranking of the Churches in the diptychs.  I would not expect it to go for first place, supplanting Constantinople, but I wouldn't be surprised if it tries for second place, pushing Alexandria down to 3rd place
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That is NEVER gonna' happen, but some people love daydreaming.
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2010, 04:59:06 AM »

Well, actually, Alexandria being bumped down has happened already once before in history.

Also, I don't understand why such a thing has to be so dramatic. I didn't get the sense that the 1965 pan-Oriental conference was anywhere near this dramatic.
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2010, 06:03:56 AM »


Also, I don't understand why such a thing has to be so dramatic. I didn't get the sense that the 1965 pan-Oriental conference was anywhere near this dramatic.

Deus,

I don't know a thing about this pan-Oriental conference.  Is there something I could read on the Web?
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2010, 11:07:33 AM »

The question of the OO and EO could also be on the agenda.  The calendar most certainly will be.

I doubt that Alexandria will get bumped, and if there is a EO-OO reunion, it certainly won't.  What will tip the scales is the growing population of Africa-all of which is, without jurisidictional squabble, under Alexandria-and the spread of Orthoodoxy.  With the OO, the Ethiopian Church is surpassed in size only by Russia, and the Orthodox of Egypt itself is larger than most E0 Churches.
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2010, 11:11:13 AM »

There were a bunch of items for the agenda announced somewhere. I remember they included the "diaspora", fasting rules in the modern world, the calendar, ecumenism, and some other stuff. The Non-Chalcedonians weren't mentioned and I doubt that this council would be able to resolve that issue. 
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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2010, 02:21:44 PM »

There were a bunch of items for the agenda announced somewhere. 

1. The Orthodox diaspora, where the jurisdiction over the Orthodox flock beyond national borders will be defined. According to the canons now in effect, before the growth in the phenomenon of emigration the faithful outside of their home country belong to the ecumenical patriarchate.

2. The manner of recognizing the status of an autocephalous Church.

3. The manner of recognizing the status of Church autonomy.

4. Dyptichs, meaning the rules of mutual canonical recognition among the Orthodox Churches.

5. Establishing a common calendar for feasts. For example, some Churches celebrate the Nativity on December 25, others 13 days later.

6. Impediments and canonicity of the sacrament of matrimony.

7. The question of fasting in the contemporary world.

8. Relationships with the other Christian confessions.

9. The ecumenical movement.

10. The contribution of the Orthodox in affirming the Christian ideals of peace, fraternity, and freedom.
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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2010, 04:16:18 PM »


Also, I don't understand why such a thing has to be so dramatic. I didn't get the sense that the 1965 pan-Oriental conference was anywhere near this dramatic.

Deus,

I don't know a thing about this pan-Oriental conference.  Is there something I could read on the Web?

Here's a pretty good source:

http://orientalorthodox.blogspot.com/2008/12/addis-ababa-conference-1965.html

It's pretty long though. If you want a less extensive summary, just go ahead and ask.
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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2010, 04:18:18 PM »

The question of the OO and EO could also be on the agenda.  The calendar most certainly will be.

I doubt that Alexandria will get bumped, and if there is a EO-OO reunion, it certainly won't.  What will tip the scales is the growing population of Africa-all of which is, without jurisidictional squabble, under Alexandria-and the spread of Orthoodoxy.  With the OO, the Ethiopian Church is surpassed in size only by Russia, and the Orthodox of Egypt itself is larger than most E0 Churches.

Neither the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church nor its Eritrean sister are under the jurisdiction of Alexandria.
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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2010, 06:23:25 PM »

The question of the OO and EO could also be on the agenda.  The calendar most certainly will be.

I doubt that Alexandria will get bumped, and if there is a EO-OO reunion, it certainly won't.  What will tip the scales is the growing population of Africa-all of which is, without jurisidictional squabble, under Alexandria-and the spread of Orthoodoxy.  With the OO, the Ethiopian Church is surpassed in size only by Russia, and the Orthodox of Egypt itself is larger than most E0 Churches.

Neither the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church nor its Eritrean sister are under the jurisdiction of Alexandria.
The OO aren't anymore, but that won't matter on point.  Btw, the Ethiopian EO etc. are still under the Pope of Alexandria.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 06:24:43 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2010, 10:01:53 PM »

The question of the OO and EO could also be on the agenda.  The calendar most certainly will be.

I doubt that Alexandria will get bumped, and if there is a EO-OO reunion, it certainly won't.  What will tip the scales is the growing population of Africa-all of which is, without jurisidictional squabble, under Alexandria-and the spread of Orthoodoxy.  With the OO, the Ethiopian Church is surpassed in size only by Russia, and the Orthodox of Egypt itself is larger than most E0 Churches.

Neither the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church nor its Eritrean sister are under the jurisdiction of Alexandria.
The OO aren't anymore, but that won't matter on point.  Btw, the Ethiopian EO etc. are still under the Pope of Alexandria.

It seemed that you were talking about both the EO and the OO at the time and said that all of Africa is under Alexandria.
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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2010, 11:54:28 PM »

The question of the OO and EO could also be on the agenda.  The calendar most certainly will be.

I doubt that Alexandria will get bumped, and if there is a EO-OO reunion, it certainly won't.  What will tip the scales is the growing population of Africa-all of which is, without jurisidictional squabble, under Alexandria-and the spread of Orthoodoxy.  With the OO, the Ethiopian Church is surpassed in size only by Russia, and the Orthodox of Egypt itself is larger than most E0 Churches.

Neither the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church nor its Eritrean sister are under the jurisdiction of Alexandria.
The OO aren't anymore, but that won't matter on point.  Btw, the Ethiopian EO etc. are still under the Pope of Alexandria.

It seemed that you were talking about both the EO and the OO at the time and said that all of Africa is under Alexandria.
For the purposes of the OP, they are.
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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2010, 12:13:11 AM »

The more I hear about this upcoming "Great and Holy Council" the more nervous it makes me.

"Do not be afraid to open Your heart to The Lord Jesus" (JPII)
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2010, 01:46:41 AM »

The more I hear about this upcoming "Great and Holy Council" the more nervous it makes me.

"Do not be afraid to open Your heart to The Lord Jesus" (JPII)
We're not afraid of Jesus, but a Spirit different from His.  That one also attends Councils.
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2010, 10:36:35 AM »

Quote
Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
9/19/2009
Asia News (www.asianews.it/)

Pope Benedict XVI announced this Synod during a meeting with Archbishops and Patriarchs of the East.
CASTEL GANDOLFO (AsiaNews) - Pope Benedict XVI has announced a special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010. The decision to hold the meeting was in response to the desire expressed for quite some time by the eastern catholic church. It was announced by the pope during a gathering held Saturday morning at Castel Gondolfo with the patriarchs and archbishops.

“During this brotherly meeting" - said Benedict XVI- "surely in your speeches, the issues that bother you will be expressed and you can find the adequate guidelines in the right place.

"I would like to assure you are constantly in my thoughts and prayers. I haven’t forgotten your appeal for peace that you placed in my hands at the end of the Assembly of the Synod of Bishops last October.

"I would like to take this opportunity to announce the special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, convened by me from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010, and the theme shall be “ The Catholic church in the Middle East: communion and testimony: The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul (At 4,32)”.

He further added “Today’s meeting reminds me of that held on the 24th of April 2004 in the St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican. Back then during the first days of my pontificate I wanted an ideal pilgrimage in the heart of the Christian East: a pilgrimage that today had reached another important point and which I intend to continue.

"On other occasions you have asked for a more regular contact with the bishop of Rome to enforce the communion of your churches with the successor of St.Peter and to examine together any problems of significant importance.

"This proposal has been renewed even in the last Plenary Congregation for the Eastern churches and in the General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops.

As Asianews published yesterday, the patriarchs presented the pope with a note that underlines four points that are very important in the life of the Christians in that region: the growth of fundamentalism in the Middle East and the restlessness of the Christians, the importance of Muslim-Christian dialogue, the position of the oriental catholic patriarch in the universal church and the ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Kuwait and in the gulf countries.

The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,includingIraq, Iran and Lebanon; the problem of those who have emigrated and of a pastoral that helps his integration.; the presence of Christians in the social, cultural, religious and political fields and the education of the Christians so that they can fight for their rights on a political, social and cultural level.


I think that ther pope will review with Estern Catholics the way of an eventual union of ortohodoxy to catholicism.
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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2010, 11:17:04 AM »

Quote
Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
9/19/2009
Asia News (www.asianews.it/)

Pope Benedict XVI announced this Synod during a meeting with Archbishops and Patriarchs of the East.
CASTEL GANDOLFO (AsiaNews) - Pope Benedict XVI has announced a special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010. The decision to hold the meeting was in response to the desire expressed for quite some time by the eastern catholic church. It was announced by the pope during a gathering held Saturday morning at Castel Gondolfo with the patriarchs and archbishops.

“During this brotherly meeting" - said Benedict XVI- "surely in your speeches, the issues that bother you will be expressed and you can find the adequate guidelines in the right place.

"I would like to assure you are constantly in my thoughts and prayers. I haven’t forgotten your appeal for peace that you placed in my hands at the end of the Assembly of the Synod of Bishops last October.

"I would like to take this opportunity to announce the special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, convened by me from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010, and the theme shall be “ The Catholic church in the Middle East: communion and testimony: The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul (At 4,32)”.

He further added “Today’s meeting reminds me of that held on the 24th of April 2004 in the St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican. Back then during the first days of my pontificate I wanted an ideal pilgrimage in the heart of the Christian East: a pilgrimage that today had reached another important point and which I intend to continue.

"On other occasions you have asked for a more regular contact with the bishop of Rome to enforce the communion of your churches with the successor of St.Peter and to examine together any problems of significant importance.

"This proposal has been renewed even in the last Plenary Congregation for the Eastern churches and in the General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops.

As Asianews published yesterday, the patriarchs presented the pope with a note that underlines four points that are very important in the life of the Christians in that region: the growth of fundamentalism in the Middle East and the restlessness of the Christians, the importance of Muslim-Christian dialogue, the position of the oriental catholic patriarch in the universal church and the ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Kuwait and in the gulf countries.

The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,includingIraq, Iran and Lebanon; the problem of those who have emigrated and of a pastoral that helps his integration.; the presence of Christians in the social, cultural, religious and political fields and the education of the Christians so that they can fight for their rights on a political, social and cultural level.


I think that ther pope will review with Estern Catholics the way of an eventual union of ortohodoxy to catholicism.
the confession of the Orthodox Faith, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

What makes you think that the meeting has a hidden agenda, not announced in the news bit? Roll Eyes police
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2010, 02:37:25 PM »

The more I hear about this upcoming "Great and Holy Council" the more nervous it makes me.

They've been trying to put this Council together for nearly 50 years now. When will it happen... 2060?  Wink
Lord willing, never.

I agree.  I look at history, seeing how in the west the Roman Bishop started down the road of "primacy" mind-set which evolved into a monster.    I do not want to see Orthodox go down that same road.
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2010, 02:44:55 PM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."
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Hypatos
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Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,611



« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2010, 03:45:21 PM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."

While I am glad a number of Hebrews are finally getting on board the ship of the Church, that does isoloate somewhat as it is now largely a Church of immigrants, and not of those who have been in the Land since Christ's time.

And as a whole, the Patriarchate is still majority Arab (Jordan is within its jurisdiction for one thing). So now we have another ethnic tension to deal with.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2010, 07:08:42 PM »

The question of the OO and EO could also be on the agenda.  The calendar most certainly will be.

I doubt that Alexandria will get bumped, and if there is a EO-OO reunion, it certainly won't.  What will tip the scales is the growing population of Africa-all of which is, without jurisidictional squabble, under Alexandria-and the spread of Orthoodoxy.  With the OO, the Ethiopian Church is surpassed in size only by Russia, and the Orthodox of Egypt itself is larger than most E0 Churches.

Neither the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church nor its Eritrean sister are under the jurisdiction of Alexandria.
The OO aren't anymore, but that won't matter on point.  Btw, the Ethiopian EO etc. are still under the Pope of Alexandria.

It seemed that you were talking about both the EO and the OO at the time and said that all of Africa is under Alexandria.
For the purposes of the OP, they are.

 Huh
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« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2010, 12:09:14 AM »

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."

And as a whole, the Patriarchate is still majority Arab (Jordan is within its jurisdiction for one thing). So now we have another ethnic tension to deal with.

What would you say?  Probably 250,000 Arab Orthodox in Jordan, possibly less?
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« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2010, 12:49:57 AM »

Quote
Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
9/19/2009
Asia News (www.asianews.it/)

Pope Benedict XVI announced this Synod during a meeting with Archbishops and Patriarchs of the East.
CASTEL GANDOLFO (AsiaNews) - Pope Benedict XVI has announced a special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010. The decision to hold the meeting was in response to the desire expressed for quite some time by the eastern catholic church. It was announced by the pope during a gathering held Saturday morning at Castel Gondolfo with the patriarchs and archbishops.

“During this brotherly meeting" - said Benedict XVI- "surely in your speeches, the issues that bother you will be expressed and you can find the adequate guidelines in the right place.

"I would like to assure you are constantly in my thoughts and prayers. I haven’t forgotten your appeal for peace that you placed in my hands at the end of the Assembly of the Synod of Bishops last October.

"I would like to take this opportunity to announce the special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, convened by me from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010, and the theme shall be “ The Catholic church in the Middle East: communion and testimony: The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul (At 4,32)”.

He further added “Today’s meeting reminds me of that held on the 24th of April 2004 in the St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican. Back then during the first days of my pontificate I wanted an ideal pilgrimage in the heart of the Christian East: a pilgrimage that today had reached another important point and which I intend to continue.

"On other occasions you have asked for a more regular contact with the bishop of Rome to enforce the communion of your churches with the successor of St.Peter and to examine together any problems of significant importance.

"This proposal has been renewed even in the last Plenary Congregation for the Eastern churches and in the General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops.

As Asianews published yesterday, the patriarchs presented the pope with a note that underlines four points that are very important in the life of the Christians in that region: the growth of fundamentalism in the Middle East and the restlessness of the Christians, the importance of Muslim-Christian dialogue, the position of the oriental catholic patriarch in the universal church and the ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Kuwait and in the gulf countries.

The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,includingIraq, Iran and Lebanon; the problem of those who have emigrated and of a pastoral that helps his integration.; the presence of Christians in the social, cultural, religious and political fields and the education of the Christians so that they can fight for their rights on a political, social and cultural level.


I think that ther pope will review with Estern Catholics the way of an eventual union of ortohodoxy to catholicism.
the confession of the Orthodox Faith, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

What makes you think that the meeting has a hidden agenda, not announced in the news bit? Roll Eyes police

Don´t you think that in an eventual union of catholics and orthodox, they need to be involved?
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« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2010, 12:53:34 AM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


To me it sounds quite fundamentalistic, But I assume that is the orthodox way, they have lost so much,  we just have to remember the case of Irineios patriarch of Jerusalen destituted because selling lands to jews.
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Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
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« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2010, 12:55:42 AM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."

While I am glad a number of Hebrews are finally getting on board the ship of the Church, that does isoloate somewhat as it is now largely a Church of immigrants, and not of those who have been in the Land since Christ's time.

And as a whole, the Patriarchate is still majority Arab (Jordan is within its jurisdiction for one thing). So now we have another ethnic tension to deal with.

Yes, ethnical tensions, so orthodox, nothing of catholicism is left there.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 12:57:04 AM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
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« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2010, 01:18:52 AM »

Quote
Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
9/19/2009
Asia News (www.asianews.it/)

Pope Benedict XVI announced this Synod during a meeting with Archbishops and Patriarchs of the East.
CASTEL GANDOLFO (AsiaNews) - Pope Benedict XVI has announced a special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010. The decision to hold the meeting was in response to the desire expressed for quite some time by the eastern catholic church. It was announced by the pope during a gathering held Saturday morning at Castel Gondolfo with the patriarchs and archbishops.

“During this brotherly meeting" - said Benedict XVI- "surely in your speeches, the issues that bother you will be expressed and you can find the adequate guidelines in the right place.

"I would like to assure you are constantly in my thoughts and prayers. I haven’t forgotten your appeal for peace that you placed in my hands at the end of the Assembly of the Synod of Bishops last October.

"I would like to take this opportunity to announce the special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, convened by me from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010, and the theme shall be “ The Catholic church in the Middle East: communion and testimony: The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul (At 4,32)”.

He further added “Today’s meeting reminds me of that held on the 24th of April 2004 in the St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican. Back then during the first days of my pontificate I wanted an ideal pilgrimage in the heart of the Christian East: a pilgrimage that today had reached another important point and which I intend to continue.

"On other occasions you have asked for a more regular contact with the bishop of Rome to enforce the communion of your churches with the successor of St.Peter and to examine together any problems of significant importance.

"This proposal has been renewed even in the last Plenary Congregation for the Eastern churches and in the General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops.

As Asianews published yesterday, the patriarchs presented the pope with a note that underlines four points that are very important in the life of the Christians in that region: the growth of fundamentalism in the Middle East and the restlessness of the Christians, the importance of Muslim-Christian dialogue, the position of the oriental catholic patriarch in the universal church and the ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Kuwait and in the gulf countries.

The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,includingIraq, Iran and Lebanon; the problem of those who have emigrated and of a pastoral that helps his integration.; the presence of Christians in the social, cultural, religious and political fields and the education of the Christians so that they can fight for their rights on a political, social and cultural level.


I think that ther pope will review with Estern Catholics the way of an eventual union of ortohodoxy to catholicism.
the confession of the Orthodox Faith, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

What makes you think that the meeting has a hidden agenda, not announced in the news bit? Roll Eyes police

Don´t you think that in an eventual union of catholics and orthodox, they need to be involved?

The Vatican has excluded the Eastern Catholic Churches from participation in the talks with the Orthodox.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 01:25:35 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2010, 01:21:20 AM »

And as a whole, the Patriarchate is still majority Arab (Jordan is within its jurisdiction for one thing). So now we have another ethnic tension to deal with.

Historically Russian Orthodox and Arab Orthodox have got along very well, no?
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« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2010, 01:22:34 AM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."

While I am glad a number of Hebrews are finally getting on board the ship of the Church, that does isoloate somewhat as it is now largely a Church of immigrants, and not of those who have been in the Land since Christ's time.

And as a whole, the Patriarchate is still majority Arab (Jordan is within its jurisdiction for one thing). So now we have another ethnic tension to deal with.

Yes, ethnical tensions, so orthodox, nothing of catholicism is left there.

Here in New Zealand the Catholic Church holds separate services for Samoans and New Zealanders. 
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« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2010, 01:24:36 AM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


To me it sounds quite fundamentalistic, But I assume that is the orthodox way, they have lost so much,  we just have to remember the case of Irineios patriarch of Jerusalen destituted because selling lands to jews.

Wonder what would happen if Pope Benedict tried to sell off a piece of Vatican City State to MacDonald's in a secret deal?
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« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2010, 01:25:02 AM »

Quote
Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
9/19/2009
Asia News (www.asianews.it/)

Pope Benedict XVI announced this Synod during a meeting with Archbishops and Patriarchs of the East.
CASTEL GANDOLFO (AsiaNews) - Pope Benedict XVI has announced a special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010. The decision to hold the meeting was in response to the desire expressed for quite some time by the eastern catholic church. It was announced by the pope during a gathering held Saturday morning at Castel Gondolfo with the patriarchs and archbishops.

“During this brotherly meeting" - said Benedict XVI- "surely in your speeches, the issues that bother you will be expressed and you can find the adequate guidelines in the right place.

"I would like to assure you are constantly in my thoughts and prayers. I haven’t forgotten your appeal for peace that you placed in my hands at the end of the Assembly of the Synod of Bishops last October.

"I would like to take this opportunity to announce the special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, convened by me from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010, and the theme shall be “ The Catholic church in the Middle East: communion and testimony: The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul (At 4,32)”.

He further added “Today’s meeting reminds me of that held on the 24th of April 2004 in the St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican. Back then during the first days of my pontificate I wanted an ideal pilgrimage in the heart of the Christian East: a pilgrimage that today had reached another important point and which I intend to continue.

"On other occasions you have asked for a more regular contact with the bishop of Rome to enforce the communion of your churches with the successor of St.Peter and to examine together any problems of significant importance.

"This proposal has been renewed even in the last Plenary Congregation for the Eastern churches and in the General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops.

As Asianews published yesterday, the patriarchs presented the pope with a note that underlines four points that are very important in the life of the Christians in that region: the growth of fundamentalism in the Middle East and the restlessness of the Christians, the importance of Muslim-Christian dialogue, the position of the oriental catholic patriarch in the universal church and the ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Kuwait and in the gulf countries.

The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,includingIraq, Iran and Lebanon; the problem of those who have emigrated and of a pastoral that helps his integration.; the presence of Christians in the social, cultural, religious and political fields and the education of the Christians so that they can fight for their rights on a political, social and cultural level.


I think that ther pope will review with Estern Catholics the way of an eventual union of ortohodoxy to catholicism.
the confession of the Orthodox Faith, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

What makes you think that the meeting has a hidden agenda, not announced in the news bit? Roll Eyes police

Don´t you think that in an eventual union of catholics and orthodox, they need to be involved?

The Vatican has excluded the Easten Cathholic Churches from participation in talks with the Orthodox.

From conversations, not from catholic church, they need to be informed as well, because they are part of us as we want you to be. They were set apart from conversations because orthodoxy requested that to continue, but that didn't happened with Maronite.
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« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2010, 01:31:59 AM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."

While I am glad a number of Hebrews are finally getting on board the ship of the Church, that does isoloate somewhat as it is now largely a Church of immigrants, and not of those who have been in the Land since Christ's time.

And as a whole, the Patriarchate is still majority Arab (Jordan is within its jurisdiction for one thing). So now we have another ethnic tension to deal with.

Yes, ethnical tensions, so orthodox, nothing of catholicism is left there.

Here in New Zealand the Catholic Church holds separate services for Samoans and New Zealanders. 

Yes in USA in the same church Hispanics have spanish mases while white americans have their own english masses, not in every parish but in some of them. priests are making efforts to unite them. yet they share the same building and hispanics can go to englis masses and some of them do it , as well as some white catholics go to spanish masses, though it is more rare.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 01:32:59 AM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2010, 01:32:33 AM »

Quote
Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
9/19/2009
Asia News (www.asianews.it/)

Pope Benedict XVI announced this Synod during a meeting with Archbishops and Patriarchs of the East.
CASTEL GANDOLFO (AsiaNews) - Pope Benedict XVI has announced a special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010. The decision to hold the meeting was in response to the desire expressed for quite some time by the eastern catholic church. It was announced by the pope during a gathering held Saturday morning at Castel Gondolfo with the patriarchs and archbishops.

“During this brotherly meeting" - said Benedict XVI- "surely in your speeches, the issues that bother you will be expressed and you can find the adequate guidelines in the right place.

"I would like to assure you are constantly in my thoughts and prayers. I haven’t forgotten your appeal for peace that you placed in my hands at the end of the Assembly of the Synod of Bishops last October.

"I would like to take this opportunity to announce the special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, convened by me from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010, and the theme shall be “ The Catholic church in the Middle East: communion and testimony: The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul (At 4,32)”.

He further added “Today’s meeting reminds me of that held on the 24th of April 2004 in the St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican. Back then during the first days of my pontificate I wanted an ideal pilgrimage in the heart of the Christian East: a pilgrimage that today had reached another important point and which I intend to continue.

"On other occasions you have asked for a more regular contact with the bishop of Rome to enforce the communion of your churches with the successor of St.Peter and to examine together any problems of significant importance.

"This proposal has been renewed even in the last Plenary Congregation for the Eastern churches and in the General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops.

As Asianews published yesterday, the patriarchs presented the pope with a note that underlines four points that are very important in the life of the Christians in that region: the growth of fundamentalism in the Middle East and the restlessness of the Christians, the importance of Muslim-Christian dialogue, the position of the oriental catholic patriarch in the universal church and the ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Kuwait and in the gulf countries.

The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,includingIraq, Iran and Lebanon; the problem of those who have emigrated and of a pastoral that helps his integration.; the presence of Christians in the social, cultural, religious and political fields and the education of the Christians so that they can fight for their rights on a political, social and cultural level.


I think that ther pope will review with Estern Catholics the way of an eventual union of ortohodoxy to catholicism.
the confession of the Orthodox Faith, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

What makes you think that the meeting has a hidden agenda, not announced in the news bit? Roll Eyes police

Don´t you think that in an eventual union of catholics and orthodox, they need to be involved?

The Vatican has excluded the Easten Cathholic Churches from participation in talks with the Orthodox.

From conversations, not from catholic church, they need to be informed as well, because they are part of us as we want you to be. They were set apart from conversations because orthodoxy requested that to continue, but that didn't happened with Maronite.

Could you say what Catholic-Orthodox meetings the Eastern Catholic have attended in the last, say, two decades.  

The only one I know is the Ukrainian Quadrilateral Commission, and the Ukrainian Eastern Catholics walked out of that and left it to the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics.

Perhaps...

1)  Rome is afraid to include Eastern Catholics because things like that could go on happening

2)  Rome is afraid because, when push comes to shove,  Eastern Catholics may side with the Orthodox against Rome om some doctrinal matters.  This would spotlight the lack of doctrinal unity in the modern Catholic Church.
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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2010, 01:34:37 AM »

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."

And as a whole, the Patriarchate is still majority Arab (Jordan is within its jurisdiction for one thing). So now we have another ethnic tension to deal with.

What would you say?  Probably 250,000 Arab Orthodox in Jordan, possibly less?
Possibly more.
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« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2010, 01:42:42 AM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


To me it sounds quite fundamentalistic, But I assume that is the orthodox way, they have lost so much,  we just have to remember the case of Irineios patriarch of Jerusalen destituted because selling lands to jews.

Wonder what would happen if Pope Benedict tried to sell off a piece of Vatican City State to MacDonald's in a secret deal?
Pope can do whatever he wants with the things there are in Vatican, he is the head of state. Just to give you an example, Pope John Paul II gave back St Gregory theologos and St John Chrisostomos bones to Bartolomeo, Do you think that all the church was happy of that?, no, for some catholics, Gregory and John where catholics when they lived, yet orthodoxy fell into cesaropapism, the very John Chrisostomos suffered for that reason. to many catholics those bones should have been given back only after reunification, not before, but for some others to be moreclose to Patriarch and to help him to convence you to be more positive to us, we needed to give back those bones, yet we have not reached full communion.

now, was the faith of orthodoxy under risk because of lands?, I don't think so, but you behave as if it were.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 01:46:36 AM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2010, 02:03:01 AM »

Quote
Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
9/19/2009
Asia News (www.asianews.it/)

Pope Benedict XVI announced this Synod during a meeting with Archbishops and Patriarchs of the East.
CASTEL GANDOLFO (AsiaNews) - Pope Benedict XVI has announced a special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010. The decision to hold the meeting was in response to the desire expressed for quite some time by the eastern catholic church. It was announced by the pope during a gathering held Saturday morning at Castel Gondolfo with the patriarchs and archbishops.

“During this brotherly meeting" - said Benedict XVI- "surely in your speeches, the issues that bother you will be expressed and you can find the adequate guidelines in the right place.

"I would like to assure you are constantly in my thoughts and prayers. I haven’t forgotten your appeal for peace that you placed in my hands at the end of the Assembly of the Synod of Bishops last October.

"I would like to take this opportunity to announce the special Assembly of the Synod dedicated to the Middle East, convened by me from the 10th to the 24th of October 2010, and the theme shall be “ The Catholic church in the Middle East: communion and testimony: The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul (At 4,32)”.

He further added “Today’s meeting reminds me of that held on the 24th of April 2004 in the St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican. Back then during the first days of my pontificate I wanted an ideal pilgrimage in the heart of the Christian East: a pilgrimage that today had reached another important point and which I intend to continue.

"On other occasions you have asked for a more regular contact with the bishop of Rome to enforce the communion of your churches with the successor of St.Peter and to examine together any problems of significant importance.

"This proposal has been renewed even in the last Plenary Congregation for the Eastern churches and in the General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops.

As Asianews published yesterday, the patriarchs presented the pope with a note that underlines four points that are very important in the life of the Christians in that region: the growth of fundamentalism in the Middle East and the restlessness of the Christians, the importance of Muslim-Christian dialogue, the position of the oriental catholic patriarch in the universal church and the ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Kuwait and in the gulf countries.

The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,includingIraq, Iran and Lebanon; the problem of those who have emigrated and of a pastoral that helps his integration.; the presence of Christians in the social, cultural, religious and political fields and the education of the Christians so that they can fight for their rights on a political, social and cultural level.


I think that ther pope will review with Estern Catholics the way of an eventual union of ortohodoxy to catholicism.
the confession of the Orthodox Faith, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

What makes you think that the meeting has a hidden agenda, not announced in the news bit? Roll Eyes police

Don´t you think that in an eventual union of catholics and orthodox, they need to be involved?

The Vatican has excluded the Easten Cathholic Churches from participation in talks with the Orthodox.

From conversations, not from catholic church, they need to be informed as well, because they are part of us as we want you to be. They were set apart from conversations because orthodoxy requested that to continue, but that didn't happened with Maronite.

Could you say what Catholic-Orthodox meetings the Eastern Catholic have attended in the last, say, two decades. 

The only one I know is the Ukrainian Quadrilateral Commission, and the Ukrainian Eastern Catholics walked out of that and left it to the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics.

Perhaps...

1)  Rome is afraid to include Eastern Catholics because things like that could go on happening

2)  Rome is afraid because, when push comes to shove,  Eastern Catholics may side with the Orthodox against Rome om some doctrinal matters.  This would spotlight the lack of doctrinal unity in the modern Catholic Church.
Well as you said, the only you know is not but a corner of the full picture, all other of your points are just mere speculation.

The real thing is that Orthodoxy requested to solve first the issue of Eastern Catholicism, before going any further, and Catholics through giving St John and St Gregory bones back to orthodoxy, made clear that we are sincere in our intensions. So orthodoxy no longer discussed about Eastern Catholics. And now they are discussing about how will papacy work in a Catholic Church that will also include Eastern Orthodoxy. The issue is that orthodoxy enjoys a lot its independency, not matter if it has caused and is causing much trouble between patriarchates, as Moscow and Constantinople issues about diaspora.

We also have to take into account that Constantinople Patriarchate feels the holding of Rome as the head patriarchate of orthodoxy, not matter if it is a church of just 2500 christians in Istanbul, and Moscow is a 150 million Christians church. 

Only if after the Council of Eastern Orthodoxy, Moscow reaches the head place of orthodoxy and Constantinople agrees, then the Catholics will speak with Russian Patriarchate as the head of orthodoxy. But by now Rome beholds Constantinople.

Constantinople now understands a bit what Rome felt in 1054, Rome is the see of St Peter, of St Paul, of the original Church of Jerusalem brought to Rome by Titus in 70 AD. and yet Constantinople pretended to be the principal see of Christianity just because it was the capital of the empire. Now Moscow is giving a taste of its own chocolate to Constantinople, defeating its primacy among orthodoxy and its potency over diaspora churches, Moscow climes to be the third and definitive Rome, no chance to any other to rice up.  Not matter if Constantinople was the see of many councils, and that Rome recognized it as second after itself before breaking.
 
That is why Constantinople understands that the church needs a primus to set order, beyond expansionistic intensions of national churches. That order in Catholicism is set by Rome, and we all either agree or disagree, we obey, something that doesn’t happen in Orthodoxy.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 02:25:06 AM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit Domum
in vanum laboraverunt qui aedifcant eam
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem
frustra vigilant qui custodit Eam
Irish Hermit
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2010, 02:03:55 AM »

Pope calls a Special Synod for the Middle East in 2010
The proposal for an special assembly of the synod for the Middle East was made to the pope last January by the Iraqi Bishop Louis Sako. The Bishop said that another problem that must be solved is the continuous exodus of the Christians from the Middle East , especially from the Holy Land,

We may give thanks to Almighty God that the position of the Orthodox in the Holy Land is the antithesis to the postion of Catholics and other Churches.  Our ancient Church has been greatly strengthened by the arrival of between 150,000 to 300,000 Orthodox from Russia and the Ukraine.   The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate
-- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics
indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they
outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


To me it sounds quite fundamentalistic, But I assume that is the orthodox way, they have lost so much,  we just have to remember the case of Irineios patriarch of Jerusalen destituted because selling lands to jews.

Wonder what would happen if Pope Benedict tried to sell off a piece of Vatican City State to MacDonald's in a secret deal?
Pope can do whatever he wants with the things there are in Vatican, he is the head of state.

Not really.  He takes an oath before he is consecrated (to use the traditional term) as Supreme Pontiff that he will not dispose of any property.  Imagine the horror if a Pope appeared who sold off Saint Peter's and went back to Saint John Lateran and the Quirinal Palace.   The Pope's have lived in the Vatican for only 130 years. 

 
Quote
now, was the faith of orthodoxy under risk because of lands?, I don't think so, but you behave as if it were.

Well, probably the faith of Roman Catholicism would not be under risk if the Pope sold off the Vatican but....  laugh
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« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2010, 02:10:45 AM »

And now they are discussing about how will papacy work in a Catholic Church that will also include Eastern Orthodoxy.

There is no such thing as "papacy" in the Church of Christ.  It is an alien beast introduced by the Church of Rome.  There is NO element in the Church higher than a bishop and a synod of bishops.  

This "papacy" has to be deconstructed before real ecumenism can occur.


Saint Justin Popovich:

"...the Orthodox Church, in its nature and its dogmatically unchanging
constitution is episcopal and centered in the bishops. For the bishop and
the faithful gathered around him are the expression and
manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, especially in the Holy
Liturgy; the Church is Apostolic and Catholic only by virtue of its bishops,
insofar as they are the heads of true ecclesiastical
units, the dioceses.


"At the same time, the other, historically later and variable forms of
church organization of the Orthodox Church: the metropolias, archdioceses,
patriarchates, pentarchies, autocephalies, autonomies, etc., however many
there may be or shall be, cannot have and do not have a determining and
decisive significance in the conciliar system of the Orthodox Church.
Furthermore, they may constitute an obstacle in the correct functioning of
the conciliary principle if they obstruct and reject the episcopal character
and structure of the Church and of the Churches.


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."

« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 02:15:00 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2010, 02:21:02 AM »


The real thing is that Orthodoxy requested to solve first the issue of Eastern Catholicism, before going any further, and Catholics through giving St John and St Gregory bones back to orthodoxy, made clear that we are sincere in our intensions. So orthodoxy no longer discussed about Eastern Catholics.

None of the above makes real sense to me.  It seems to be saying that the Orthodox were bought off by the gift of the relics of Saint John Chrysostom and Saint Gregory.  A back room deal was done that the Orthodox would not talk about Eastern Catholicism if they got these relics back?   Huh
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« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2010, 02:22:21 AM »


To me it sounds quite fundamentalistic, But I assume that is the orthodox way, they have lost so much,

They've lost less than you.
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« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2010, 02:23:03 AM »


Yes, ethnical tensions, so orthodox, nothing of catholicism is left there.

Orthodoxy is Catholicism.
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