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Author Topic: Some tough words from the Church Fathers.  (Read 7390 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bogoliubtsy
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« on: January 14, 2010, 01:40:00 AM »

Property is theft.
- St. Basil the Great

We who share one mind and soul obviously have no misgivings about community in property.
- Tertullian

All things belong to God, who is our Father and the father of all things. We are all of the same family; all of us are brothers. And among brothers it is best and most equal that all inherit equal portions.
- St. Gregory of Nyssa

Share everything with your brother. Do not say "it is private property." If you share what is everlasting, you should be willing to share that much more the things that do not last.
- the Didache

Give a loaf of bread yourself; someone else can give a cup of wine, and another clothes. In this way one man's property is relieved by your joint effort.
- St. Gregory of Nyssa

The rich take what belongs to everyone, and claim that they have the right to own it, to monopolize it.
- St. Basil the Great

I am criticized often for my continual attacks on the rich. Yes: because the rich continually attack the poor.
– St. John Chrysostom

You a have thousand excuses for robbing your brother. “His house stands in my light,” you say; or “Only tramps go there.” You force them to move…
– St. John Chrysostom

It isn’t because the affluent are unable to provide food easily that men go hungry; it is because the affluent are cruel and inhuman…Every day the Church here feeds 3,000 people. Besides this, the Church daily helps provide food and clothes for prisoners, the hospitalized, pilgrims, cripples, churchmen, and others. If only ten people were willing to do this, there wouldn’t be a single poor man left in town.
– St. John Chrysostom

Those who oppress the poor must know that their sentence is heavier because of those they try to hurt. The more they press their power over these wretched lives, the more terrible their future condemnation and punishment will be.
– St. Isidore

Some think that the Old Testament is stricter than the New, but they judge wrongly; they are fooling themselves. The Old Law did not punish the desire to hold on to wealth; it punished theft. But now the rich man is not condemned for taking the property of others; rather, he is condemned for not giving his property away.
– St. Gregory the Great

You are not making a gift of what is yours to the poor man, but you are giving him back what is his. You have been appropriating things that are meant to be for the common use of everyone. The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich.
- St. Ambrose

God has ordered all things to be produced so that there should be food in common for all, and that the earth should be the common possession of all. Nature, therefore, has produced a common right for all, but greed has made it a right for few.
- St. Ambrose

What keeps you from giving now? Isn’t the poor man there? Aren’t your own warehouses full? Isn’t the reward promised? The command is clear: the hungry man is dying now, the naked man is freezing now, the man in debt is beaten now- and you want him to wait until tomorrow? “I am not doing any harm,” you say. “I just want to keep what I own, that’s all.” Your own! ... You are like someone who sits down in a theater and keeps every one else away, saying what is there for everyone’s use is his own. … If everyone took only what he needed and gave the rest to those in need, there would be no such thing a rich and poor. After all, didn’t you come into this life naked? And won’t you return to the earth naked?
– St. Basil the Great

Who is the greedy man? One for whom plenty does not suffice. Who defrauds others? One who keeps for himself what belongs to everyone. Aren’t you greedy, don’t you defraud, when you keep for yourself what was given to give away? When someone steals a man’s clothes, we call him a thief. Shouldn’t we give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not?
– St. Basil the Great

The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry person; the coat hanging unused in your closet belongs to the person who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the person with no shoes; the money which you put in the bank belongs to the poor. You do wrong to everyone you could help, but fail to help.
– St. Basil the Great

You may say "words are alright; but gold is better." Talking to you is like talking to a lustful man about chastity: when one says something against him keeping a mistress, the mention of her name only goes to heat up his lust. How can I make you realize the misery of the poor? How can I make you understand that your wealth comes from their weeping?
- St. Basil the Great

The bread which the rich eat belongs to others more than them. They live on stolen goods. What they pay comes from what they have seized....You have gold dug up from mines, only to re-bury it. And how many lives are buried with it! And this wealth is kept for whom? For your heir, who waits idly to receive it....it is not the poor who are cursed, but the rich. Scripture says of the rich, not of the poor, that the man who increases the price of corn will be cursed....who is the wise man? The one who shows compassion on the poor, who sees the poor as natural members of his family.
- St. Ambrose

It is the poor who mine gold, though they are denied gold; they are forced to work for what they cannot keep.
- St. Ambrose

You have the power to save so many from death, but you do not care to do so- and the price of the ring on your hand could save the lives of a multitude!
- St. Ambrose

Wealth, which lead the men the wrong way so often, is seen less for its own qualities than for the human misery it stands for. The large rooms of which you are so proud are in fact your shame. They are big enough to hold crowds- and also big enough to shut out the voice of the poor. True, even if the voice were heard it would be ignored....the poor man cries before your house, and you pay no attention. There is your brother naked and crying! And you stand confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.
- St. Ambrose

The Lord ate from a common bowl, and asked his disciples to sit on the grass. He washed their feet with a towel wrapped around his waist- He, who is the Lord of the universe! He drank water from a jar of earthenware, with the Samaritan woman. Christ made use his aim, not extravagance.
- St. Clement

When the Son of Man comes in majesty, when he sits on the throne of glory, when all people are gathered and he divides the good from the bad, what praise will he give those on his right hand? He will praise them only for works of kindness and charity; he will hold them as done for himself. For the One who made our nature his own did not hold himself back in any way from the most simple human thing. And what curse will there be for those on his left hand? Only that they neglected love; that they were inhumanly harsh and denied mercy to the oppressed. It is though there were no other virtues with the first group, and as though there were no other sins than those of the other.
- Pope St. Leo the Great

Let us abandon luxury, we will not regret it.
- Tertullian

The price of the Kingdom is the food you give to those who need it.
- Pope St. Leo the Great

Feeding the hungry is a greater work than raising the dead.
- St. John Chrysostom

We are not to throw away things that can benefit our neighbor. Goods are called good because they can be used for good. They are instruments of good in the hands of those who use them properly.
- St. Clement

Houses of hospitality must be built for the poor in every city of every diocese.
- The Council of Nicea

Every family should have a room where Christ is welcome in the person of the hungry and thirsty stranger.
- St. John Chrysostom


Excessive spacing removed from post to make quoting of this rather long post less stressful on our bandwidth and on our readers (by request of Fr. George) -PtA
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 05:53:16 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2010, 01:53:04 AM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?


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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2010, 02:02:34 AM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 Tell us, then, the point of choosing these particular sayings?  What lesson are you trying to impart?  Looks to me like you got called out.  Wink
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 02:04:30 AM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 Tell us, then, the point of choosing these particular sayings?  What lesson are you trying to impart?  Looks to me like you got called out.  Wink

They are hard sayings because they relate to a much overlooked issue within the Orthodox world- the Church's relationship, and responsibility to, the poor. The point is to show, in part, the difficulty of living the Gospel and to highlight the shortcomings of the Orthodox world in this respect. If I had taken some abortion and/or sex related "hard sayings", maybe that would have gone over better.  Wink
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 02:05:19 AM by Bogoliubtsy » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2010, 02:09:02 AM »

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

It is a shame more people aren't organ/body donors.
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 02:13:57 AM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 Tell us, then, the point of choosing these particular sayings?  What lesson are you trying to impart?  Looks to me like you got called out.  Wink

They are hard sayings because they relate to a much overlooked issue within the Orthodox world- the Church's relationship, and responsibility to, the poor. The point is to show, in part, the difficulty of living the Gospel and to highlight the shortcomings of the Orthodox world in this respect. If I had taken some abortion and/or sex related "hard sayings", maybe that would have gone over better.  Wink
It is "and" not "or."
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 02:16:33 AM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 Tell us, then, the point of choosing these particular sayings?  What lesson are you trying to impart?  Looks to me like you got called out.  Wink

They are hard sayings because they relate to a much overlooked issue within the Orthodox world- the Church's relationship, and responsibility to, the poor. The point is to show, in part, the difficulty of living the Gospel and to highlight the shortcomings of the Orthodox world in this respect. If I had taken some abortion and/or sex related "hard sayings", maybe that would have gone over better.  Wink
It is "and" not "or."

Ah, yes. Now I've got your interest. Of course. The poor? Injustice? That's not your speed.
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 02:20:35 AM »

The quotes were presented on this blog

http://orthodoxchristian-postmodern.blogspot.com/2010/01/christian-communism-church-fathers-on.html
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 02:22:36 AM »


Yes, they were. Not my blog, but found them interesting and powerful.
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 02:34:32 AM »



400 free soup kitchens operated by the Church and volunteers in the diocese of Moscow.
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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2010, 02:40:59 AM »



400 free soup kitchens operated by the Church and volunteers in the diocese of Moscow.

Well, job done. I guess we can pack it in then.
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"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2010, 02:42:51 AM »

There is actually a lot going on that is sponsored by Orthodox Churches. Here are a few examples:

http://www.pravmir.com/article_122.html

http://holycrossonline.org/our_ministries/outreach_ministries/baltimore_city_homeless/

http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20090123/NEWS/901230321/Clients-say-Perth-Amboy-soup-kitchen-features-good-food-and-friendly-volunteers

http://saintjohnwonderworker.org/

http://www.focusnorthamerica.org/


Within the Russian Church Abroad:

The parish of Holy Transfiguration in Los Angeles collects and distributes over $20,000 per year for the homeless and needy.

St. John the Baptist Parish in Washington, D.C. distributes over $50,000 per year.

Bogoliubtsy,  If your parish is not undertaking any help for the poor, it's probably time to have a chat with your priest and the Parish Council

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« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2010, 02:44:22 AM »

http://www.iocc.org/news/1-13-10haiti.aspx

IOCC Mobilizes Disaster Response for Haiti Earthquake

January 13, 2010

Baltimore, Md. (IOCC) — International Orthodox Christian Charities (IOCC) is
responding to the most devastating earthquake to hit the island nation of Haiti
in 200 years. Authorities have not put an estimate of how many were killed by
yesterday's magnitude 7.0 earthquake, but thousands are feared dead. People are
still trapped in destroyed buildings and leveled shantytowns and there is
growing concern about the lack of sanitation, water and electricity.

IOCC has mobilized its disaster response team and is coordinating with our
Orthodox and ecumenical partners to monitor and respond to the emerging needs in
Haiti. "Our prayers are with the people of Haiti who have lost loved ones in
this disaster that has brought even more suffering to one of the poorest nations
in the hemisphere," said IOCC Executive Director & CEO Constantine M.
Triantafilou. "IOCC will be working with our fellow ACT Alliance members who are
already in place to provide humanitarian aid to those affected by the
earthquake."



HELP SPEED RELIEF TO HAITI TODAY!


You can help the victims of disasters around the world, like the Haiti
Earthquake, by making a financial gift to the IOCC International Emergency
Response Fund, which will provide immediate relief as well as long-term support
through the provision of emergency aid, recovery assistance and other support to
help those in need. To make a gift, please visit www.iocc.org, call toll free at
1-877-803-IOCC (4622), or mail a check or money order payable to IOCC, P.O. Box
630225, Baltimore, Md. 21263-0225.

Orthodox faithful and parishes are encouraged to begin assembling hygiene kits
and emergency clean up buckets to be shipped to Haiti. For information on
hygiene kits, click here. For information on emergency clean up buckets, click
here.

IOCC, founded in 1992 as the official humanitarian aid agency of the Standing
Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas (SCOBA), has
implemented over $300 million in relief and development programs in 33 countries
around the world.


Media: Contact Amal Morcos at 410-243-9820 or (cell) 443-823-3489.
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« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2010, 02:46:27 AM »

^ These are great endeavors - absolutely. But, as a whole, the Church seems lacking in ministry to the poor in comparison to the emphasis given to this task by other churches. And, even if we are "doing our best", so to speak, there is always more to do in a world where the gap between obscene wealth and poverty is growing greater every day. Perhaps it's something like repentance- can we ever be satisfied and say, "we're doing enough" ?
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« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2010, 03:36:26 AM »

^ These are great endeavors - absolutely. But, as a whole, the Church seems lacking in ministry to the poor in comparison to the emphasis given to this task by other churches. And, even if we are "doing our best", so to speak, there is always more to do in a world where the gap between obscene wealth and poverty is growing greater every day. Perhaps it's something like repentance- can we ever be satisfied and say, "we're doing enough" ?

So 'fess up.  What are you doing in your parish?  What are you doing personally out there is the world of the needy and the desparate?   Three of our boys help out at the Catholic nuns' soup kitchen.   One of our ladies, an accountant, does the books for the Cancer Society for free - that sort of stuff.  You...?  Your parish?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 03:37:13 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2010, 03:40:26 AM »

In other words, do good works instead of slinging mud on an internet forum?
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2010, 04:54:12 AM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great



We who share one mind and soul obviously have no misgivings about community in property.


- Tertullian


All things belong to God, who is our Father and the father of all things. We are all of the same family; all of us are brothers. And among brothers it is best and most equal that all inherit equal portions.

- St. Gregory of Nyssa


Share everything with your brother. Do not say "it is private property." If you share what is everlasting, you should be willing to share that much more the things that do not last.


- the Didache


Give a loaf of bread yourself; someone else can give a cup of wine, and another clothes. In this way one man's property is relieved by your joint effort.

- St. Gregory of Nyssa


The rich take what belongs to everyone, and claim that they have the right to own it, to monopolize it.

- St. Basil the Great


I am criticized often for my continual attacks on the rich. Yes: because the rich continually attack the poor.


– St. John Chrysostom



You a have thousand excuses for robbing your brother. “His house stands in my light,” you say; or “Only tramps go there.” You force them to move…

– St. John Chrysostom




It isn’t because the affluent are unable to provide food easily that men go hungry; it is because the affluent are cruel and inhuman…Every day the Church here feeds 3,000 people. Besides this, the Church daily helps provide food and clothes for prisoners, the hospitalized, pilgrims, cripples, churchmen, and others. If only ten people were willing to do this, there wouldn’t be a single poor man left in town.

– St. John Chrysostom



Those who oppress the poor must know that their sentence is heavier because of those they try to hurt. The more they press their power over these wretched lives, the more terrible their future condemnation and punishment will be.


– St. Isidore



Some think that the Old Testament is stricter than the New, but they judge wrongly; they are fooling themselves. The Old Law did not punish the desire to hold on to wealth; it punished theft. But now the rich man is not condemned for taking the property of others; rather, he is condemned for not giving his property away.

– St. Gregory the Great


You are not making a gift of what is yours to the poor man, but you are giving him back what is his. You have been appropriating things that are meant to be for the common use of everyone. The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich.

- St. Ambrose


God has ordered all things to be produced so that there should be food in common for all, and that the earth should be the common possession of all. Nature, therefore, has produced a common right for all, but greed has made it a right for few.

- St. Ambrose


What keeps you from giving now? Isn’t the poor man there? Aren’t your own warehouses full? Isn’t the reward promised? The command is clear: the hungry man is dying now, the naked man is freezing now, the man in debt is beaten now- and you want him to wait until tomorrow? “I am not doing any harm,” you say. “I just want to keep what I own, that’s all.” Your own! ... You are like someone who sits down in a theater and keeps every one else away, saying what is there for everyone’s use is his own. … If everyone took only what he needed and gave the rest to those in need, there would be no such thing a rich and poor. After all, didn’t you come into this life naked? And won’t you return to the earth naked?

– St. Basil the Great



Who is the greedy man? One for whom plenty does not suffice. Who defrauds others? One who keeps for himself what belongs to everyone. Aren’t you greedy, don’t you defraud, when you keep for yourself what was given to give away? When someone steals a man’s clothes, we call him a thief. Shouldn’t we give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not?

– St. Basil the Great




The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry person; the coat hanging unused in your closet belongs to the person who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the person with no shoes; the money which you put in the bank belongs to the poor. You do wrong to everyone you could help, but fail to help.


– St. Basil the Great



You may say "words are alright; but gold is better." Talking to you is like talking to a lustful man about chastity: when one says something against him keeping a mistress, the mention of her name only goes to heat up his lust. How can I make you realize the misery of the poor? How can I make you understand that your wealth comes from their weeping?

- St. Basil the Great


The bread which the rich eat belongs to others more than them. They live on stolen goods. What they pay comes from what they have seized....You have gold dug up from mines, only to re-bury it. And how many lives are buried with it! And this wealth is kept for whom? For your heir, who waits idly to receive it....it is not the poor who are cursed, but the rich. Scripture says of the rich, not of the poor, that the man who increases the price of corn will be cursed....who is the wise man? The one who shows compassion on the poor, who sees the poor as natural members of his family.

- St. Ambrose


It is the poor who mine gold, though they are denied gold; they are forced to work for what they cannot keep.

- St. Ambrose


You have the power to save so many from death, but you do not care to do so- and the price of the ring on your hand could save the lives of a multitude!

- St. Ambrose


Wealth, which lead the men the wrong way so often, is seen less for its own qualities than for the human misery it stands for. The large rooms of which you are so proud are in fact your shame. They are big enough to hold crowds- and also big enough to shut out the voice of the poor. True, even if the voice were heard it would be ignored....the poor man cries before your house, and you pay no attention. There is your brother naked and crying! And you stand confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.

- St. Ambrose



The Lord ate from a common bowl, and asked his disciples to sit on the grass. He washed their feet with a towel wrapped around his waist- He, who is the Lord of the universe! He drank water from a jar of earthenware, with the Samaritan woman. Christ made use his aim, not extravagance.

- St. Clement


When the Son of Man comes in majesty, when he sits on the throne of glory, when all people are gathered and he divides the good from the bad, what praise will he give those on his right hand? He will praise them only for works of kindness and charity; he will hold them as done for himself. For the One who made our nature his own did not hold himself back in any way from the most simple human thing. And what curse will there be for those on his left hand? Only that they neglected love; that they were inhumanly harsh and denied mercy to the oppressed. It is though there were no other virtues with the first group, and as though there were no other sins than those of the other.

- Pope St. Leo the Great


Let us abandon luxury, we will not regret it.

- Tertullian


The price of the Kingdom is the food you give to those who need it.

- Pope St. Leo the Great


Feeding the hungry is a greater work than raising the dead.

- St. John Chrysostom


We are not to throw away things that can benefit our neighbor. Goods are called good because they can be used for good. They are instruments of good in the hands of those who use them properly.

- St. Clement


Houses of hospitality must be built for the poor in every city of every diocese.

- The Council of Nicea


Every family should have a room where Christ is welcome in the person of the hungry and thirsty stranger.

- St. John Chrysostom

Thank you for these great quotes!

I am reminded of Blessed Augustine, who wrote: "The King asked the pirate, 'What is your idea in infesting the sea?' To which the priate replied, 'The same idea as you. But because you do it with a mighty fleet, they call you a king. I do it with a small boat, and therefore I am called a thief.'"

I also like Dorothy Day's comment: "If you feed the poor, they call you a saint. If you ask why they are poor, they call you a communist."

But above all, I meditate upon what Our Lady the Virgin Mariyam prophesied:

"His mercy is on them that fear Him from generation to generation. He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty." [St. Luke 2:50-53]

Marxism is a demonic plagiarizing of the Gospels, stripped of their spritual substance and power. That is why all the humanistic efforts of Marx, Mao, and their ilk have failed; but the prophetic utterances of Our Lady shall surely be fullfilled.

Selam
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 04:55:33 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2010, 05:03:28 AM »


Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great



We who share one mind and soul obviously have no misgivings about community in property.


- Tertullian


All things belong to God, who is our Father and the father of all things. We are all of the same family; all of us are brothers. And among brothers it is best and most equal that all inherit equal portions.

- St. Gregory of Nyssa


Share everything with your brother. Do not say "it is private property." If you share what is everlasting, you should be willing to share that much more the things that do not last.


- the Didache

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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2010, 05:04:25 AM »


I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 laugh
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2010, 05:05:55 AM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?




One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2010, 05:06:48 AM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.
Not to the Fathers. Just to their misuse.

They're not being misused. The quotes make it abundantly clear that the Fathers were far more Socialist than you would like to admit.
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2010, 06:44:51 AM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2010, 06:55:03 AM »

^ These are great endeavors - absolutely. But, as a whole, the Church seems lacking in ministry to the poor in comparison to the emphasis given to this task by other churches.

In whose estimation?  Yours? Somehow I doubt the Church, or anything in lock step with your little world view, will ever measure up to your yardstick.  But I guess the Church and the universe will just have to go on....

Quote
And, even if we are "doing our best", so to speak, there is always more to do in a world where the gap between obscene wealth and poverty is growing greater every day. Perhaps it's something like repentance- can we ever be satisfied and say, "we're doing enough" ?

No one, except you, is saying (or rather accusing) "we have done enough."
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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2010, 06:55:10 AM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2010, 07:10:52 AM »

^ These are great endeavors - absolutely. But, as a whole, the Church seems lacking in ministry to the poor in comparison to the emphasis given to this task by other churches. And, even if we are "doing our best", so to speak, there is always more to do in a world where the gap between obscene wealth and poverty is growing greater every day. Perhaps it's something like repentance- can we ever be satisfied and say, "we're doing enough" ?

So 'fess up.  What are you doing in your parish?  What are you doing personally out there is the world of the needy and the desparate?   Three of our boys help out at the Catholic nuns' soup kitchen.   One of our ladies, an accountant, does the books for the Cancer Society for free - that sort of stuff.  You...?  Your parish?
Father, Bogo has shown he is full of good intentions.  He doesn't actually have to DO anything.  Isn't it enough to rant on about about a wealth gap?
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2010, 07:13:25 AM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 Tell us, then, the point of choosing these particular sayings?  What lesson are you trying to impart?  Looks to me like you got called out.  Wink

They are hard sayings because they relate to a much overlooked issue within the Orthodox world- the Church's relationship, and responsibility to, the poor. The point is to show, in part, the difficulty of living the Gospel and to highlight the shortcomings of the Orthodox world in this respect. If I had taken some abortion and/or sex related "hard sayings", maybe that would have gone over better.  Wink
It is "and" not "or."

Ah, yes. Now I've got your interest. Of course. The poor? Injustice? That's not your speed.
Why?  Because I don't call throwing money out the window a poverty fightiing program? (more details would be "political").
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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2010, 07:16:02 AM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.

How so?  If trhe heart or the liver of someone who is later venerated as a Saint is donated at death to another brother or sister, why would that render the veneration of his relics preposterous?    For example, do we have the heart and liver of Saint John the Baptist for veneration?  No, we don't but the veneration of his head and his arm is not rendered preposterous thereby.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 07:16:30 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2010, 11:00:04 AM »

To be fare. We have a lot of secular organizations today that do the work that St. basil and the Orthodox church started. Hospitals, soup and food kitchens exc. are no longer just church organizations. In fact most of them are now completely secularized in The USA. I know of Two major RC hospitals that turned secular in the past year alone. I personally don't like how these secular institutions are structured. I think they defraud the poor in that they are run just like corporate America. Even though they are non profit the CEO's and higher ups receive very modest salaries similar to many other secular corporations. In many cases the money is used up well before it gets to the mouths of the poor. If you do give. Be careful and do a little research first.
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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2010, 11:18:25 AM »

I know of instances where resources could be used more intelligently within  and from without of a parish but are not. These complications are within a context in which there is no wrongdoing but certain issues need to be addressed more than others but also one cannot judge right or wrong of those who choose to allocate their money to what they understand to be right. Things can be complicated even when there is honesty but wisdom sometimes lacking in choosing priorities.
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2010, 01:30:55 PM »

]Not true, is it? Please, tell me that this is true, please, please, please. Sad Sad Sad
I'm having a crisis right now. Seriously, my hands are shaking. If St. Basil, after saying all those wonderful things about the Holy Trinity, also came up with this quote, then I'm most probably going to build a temple in his name. Dear God, someone, please, in which work did St. Basil say that? Anyone?

This is just speculation, but some of these quotes, including the one of St. Basil, might have been directed towards a monastic audience. It would make more sense, I think, if that was the case. In monastic literature we also sometimes see an idea expressed that your clothes should be so crappy that you could throw them outside the door of your place, and leave them for three days, and no one would steal them. Are we gonna follow that idea as well? Wink
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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2010, 02:03:20 PM »

]Not true, is it? Please, tell me that this is true, please, please, please. Sad Sad Sad
I'm having a crisis right now. Seriously, my hands are shaking. If St. Basil, after saying all those wonderful things about the Holy Trinity, also came up with this quote, then I'm most probably going to build a temple in his name. Dear God, someone, please, in which work did St. Basil say that? Anyone?

This is just speculation, but some of these quotes, including the one of St. Basil, might have been directed towards a monastic audience. It would make more sense, I think, if that was the case. In monastic literature we also sometimes see an idea expressed that your clothes should be so crappy that you could throw them outside the door of your place, and leave them for three days, and no one would steal them. Are we gonna follow that idea as well? Wink

Don't apply context: it ruins propaganda.
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2010, 02:12:45 PM »

]Not true, is it? Please, tell me that this is true, please, please, please. Sad Sad Sad
I'm having a crisis right now. Seriously, my hands are shaking. If St. Basil, after saying all those wonderful things about the Holy Trinity, also came up with this quote, then I'm most probably going to build a temple in his name. Dear God, someone, please, in which work did St. Basil say that? Anyone?

This is just speculation, but some of these quotes, including the one of St. Basil, might have been directed towards a monastic audience. It would make more sense, I think, if that was the case.

I completely agree. Not that these quotes cannot work outside a monastic setting, but context is always important.  This type of cut-and-paste quoting is very Scholastic and goes against the phronema and orthopraxis of the Eastern Orthodox model.  Fr. Philotheos calls it 'Scholastic influenced neo-Patristic' in his highly recommended book   Functional and Dysfunctional Christianity.
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2010, 02:14:01 PM »

^ These are great endeavors - absolutely. But, as a whole, the Church seems lacking in ministry to the poor in comparison to the emphasis given to this task by other churches. And, even if we are "doing our best", so to speak, there is always more to do in a world where the gap between obscene wealth and poverty is growing greater every day. Perhaps it's something like repentance- can we ever be satisfied and say, "we're doing enough" ?

So 'fess up.  What are you doing in your parish?  What are you doing personally out there is the world of the needy and the desparate?   Three of our boys help out at the Catholic nuns' soup kitchen.   One of our ladies, an accountant, does the books for the Cancer Society for free - that sort of stuff.  You...?  Your parish?

I don't think it's proper to toot one's own horn in this respect, anymore than it's wise to boast of fasting. However, I've worked in homeless shelters, tutored inner city kids, volunteered at my former parish's "food pantry", as well as being involved with organizations that work for more systemic changes in society that will alleviate poverty.  This type of organizational involvement that challenges the structures that create poverty takes up more of my time. I currently don't have a parish, but am hoping, when time permits, to begin helping out in the local Salvation Army and/or Episcopal Church's soup kitchen down the block from me.

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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2010, 02:16:06 PM »


Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great



We who share one mind and soul obviously have no misgivings about community in property.


- Tertullian


All things belong to God, who is our Father and the father of all things. We are all of the same family; all of us are brothers. And among brothers it is best and most equal that all inherit equal portions.

- St. Gregory of Nyssa


Share everything with your brother. Do not say "it is private property." If you share what is everlasting, you should be willing to share that much more the things that do not last.


- the Didache

...

 Kiss

Are you Christian?

I like to think so. Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2010, 02:17:32 PM »

^ These are great endeavors - absolutely. But, as a whole, the Church seems lacking in ministry to the poor in comparison to the emphasis given to this task by other churches. And, even if we are "doing our best", so to speak, there is always more to do in a world where the gap between obscene wealth and poverty is growing greater every day. Perhaps it's something like repentance- can we ever be satisfied and say, "we're doing enough" ?

So 'fess up.  What are you doing in your parish?  What are you doing personally out there is the world of the needy and the desparate?   Three of our boys help out at the Catholic nuns' soup kitchen.   One of our ladies, an accountant, does the books for the Cancer Society for free - that sort of stuff.  You...?  Your parish?
Father, Bogo has shown he is full of good intentions.  He doesn't actually have to DO anything.  Isn't it enough to rant on about about a wealth gap?

You don't know a darn thing about my person life, so watch it.
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2010, 02:33:42 PM »

These Fathers sure sound like bleeding heart liberals.  laugh
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2010, 02:34:03 PM »

Quote
Help the poor or join them?
The ideal would be, I think, to join the poor in their poverty, as we see so many saints did. But few are willing to take literally the commandment "Sell all you have, give it to the poor...".
St. Anthony, St. Arsenios and others did.
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2010, 02:49:45 PM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 Tell us, then, the point of choosing these particular sayings?  What lesson are you trying to impart?  Looks to me like you got called out.  Wink

They are hard sayings because they relate to a much overlooked issue within the Orthodox world- the Church's relationship, and responsibility to, the poor. The point is to show, in part, the difficulty of living the Gospel and to highlight the shortcomings of the Orthodox world in this respect. If I had taken some abortion and/or sex related "hard sayings", maybe that would have gone over better.  Wink
It is "and" not "or."

Ah, yes. Now I've got your interest. Of course. The poor? Injustice? That's not your speed.

Mathew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

http://kingjbible.com/matthew/7.htm

Put your money where your mouth is.   
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« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2010, 02:53:11 PM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 Tell us, then, the point of choosing these particular sayings?  What lesson are you trying to impart?  Looks to me like you got called out.  Wink

They are hard sayings because they relate to a much overlooked issue within the Orthodox world- the Church's relationship, and responsibility to, the poor. The point is to show, in part, the difficulty of living the Gospel and to highlight the shortcomings of the Orthodox world in this respect. If I had taken some abortion and/or sex related "hard sayings", maybe that would have gone over better.  Wink
It is "and" not "or."

Ah, yes. Now I've got your interest. Of course. The poor? Injustice? That's not your speed.

Mathew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

http://kingjbible.com/matthew/7.htm

Put your money where your mouth is.   

I'm a hypocrite because I brought up the fact that Christians should pay attention to the poor? Or that issues of sexuality (minimally mentioned in the NT) seem to take precedence among many Christians?   

Put my money where my mouth is?  How do you know what I do with my money?  I'd also like to point out that these fathers castigate the RICH. I am not rich.
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« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2010, 03:04:26 PM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 Tell us, then, the point of choosing these particular sayings?  What lesson are you trying to impart?  Looks to me like you got called out.  Wink

They are hard sayings because they relate to a much overlooked issue within the Orthodox world- the Church's relationship, and responsibility to, the poor. The point is to show, in part, the difficulty of living the Gospel and to highlight the shortcomings of the Orthodox world in this respect. If I had taken some abortion and/or sex related "hard sayings", maybe that would have gone over better.  Wink
It is "and" not "or."

Ah, yes. Now I've got your interest. Of course. The poor? Injustice? That's not your speed.

Mathew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

http://kingjbible.com/matthew/7.htm

Put your money where your mouth is.   

I'm a hypocrite because I brought up the fact that Christians should pay attention to the poor? Or that issues of sexuality (minimally mentioned in the NT) seem to take precedence among many Christians?   

Put my money where my mouth is?  How do you know what I do with my money?  I'd also like to point out that these fathers castigate the RICH. I am not rich.

How you see Christ speaking to you is definitely YOUR business and not MINE. But since you're asking ME the question, you're a hypocrite because you should be worried about the log that's in your eye instead of the speck that is in anyone else's.  If you were preocupied with the log, tried to cut down the log, and realize the log is a log in your eye (which I can only assume is a huge problem), then the very nature of your post would be mitigated instantaneously.

The fathers you quoted are castigating the rich...sure...and i'm just going to leave that comment to those who have already tackled it:

]Not true, is it? Please, tell me that this is true, please, please, please. Sad Sad Sad
I'm having a crisis right now. Seriously, my hands are shaking. If St. Basil, after saying all those wonderful things about the Holy Trinity, also came up with this quote, then I'm most probably going to build a temple in his name. Dear God, someone, please, in which work did St. Basil say that? Anyone?

This is just speculation, but some of these quotes, including the one of St. Basil, might have been directed towards a monastic audience. It would make more sense, I think, if that was the case. In monastic literature we also sometimes see an idea expressed that your clothes should be so crappy that you could throw them outside the door of your place, and leave them for three days, and no one would steal them. Are we gonna follow that idea as well? Wink

Don't apply context: it ruins propaganda.

Putting your money where your mouth is...well...that's just an expression, and a action. Putting something somewhere requires action.  I'm calling you to action in what it is that you are even trying to talk about. If you focus on that (like the log), you won't focus trying to tell the rest of us what to do, which plainly is none of your business. 

Whether you are rich or not is a moot point considering:
Mathew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
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« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2010, 03:20:13 PM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 Tell us, then, the point of choosing these particular sayings?  What lesson are you trying to impart?  Looks to me like you got called out.  Wink

They are hard sayings because they relate to a much overlooked issue within the Orthodox world- the Church's relationship, and responsibility to, the poor. The point is to show, in part, the difficulty of living the Gospel and to highlight the shortcomings of the Orthodox world in this respect. If I had taken some abortion and/or sex related "hard sayings", maybe that would have gone over better.  Wink
It is "and" not "or."

Ah, yes. Now I've got your interest. Of course. The poor? Injustice? That's not your speed.

Mathew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

http://kingjbible.com/matthew/7.htm

Put your money where your mouth is.   

I'm a hypocrite because I brought up the fact that Christians should pay attention to the poor? Or that issues of sexuality (minimally mentioned in the NT) seem to take precedence among many Christians?   

Put my money where my mouth is?  How do you know what I do with my money?  I'd also like to point out that these fathers castigate the RICH. I am not rich.

How you see Christ speaking to you is definitely YOUR business and not MINE. But since you're asking ME the question, you're a hypocrite because you should be worried about the log that's in your eye instead of the speck that is in anyone else's.  If you were preocupied with the log, tried to cut down the log, and realize the log is a log in your eye (which I can only assume is a huge problem), then the very nature of your post would be mitigated instantaneously.

The fathers you quoted are castigating the rich...sure...and i'm just going to leave that comment to those who have already tackled it:


I posted quotes from the fathers on the rich and poor, and expressed my view that the Church does not do enough to help the poor, and that calls for telling me to take a look at the log in my own eye?  If I had put up some typical quotes about not judging, or fasting, or some sexually related matter, all would most likely be well here. 

Where is the HYPOCRISY in posting quotes from the fathers on wealth and poverty?
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« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2010, 05:37:19 PM »

Political posts moved to Politics:

Hard sayings of the Fathers or prooftexting for Marx?
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« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2010, 06:06:48 PM »

Interesting that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers (forcefully removed from their contexts) to lecture Orthodox Christians on what he perceives to be their charitable obligations.  Yes, we will be judged by our practice of Matthew 25, but without the Resurrection, what is the Church but yet another merely human social organization, of which the world has likely seen far too many already?  The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not to be found in charitable work for the poor per se.  The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that He is risen from the dead.  All of the Church's other charitable work must flow out of that ultimate act of Divine charity.
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« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2010, 06:10:01 PM »

Bogoliubtsy,
Thanks for starting this thread. Loving our neighbours as our self is the keystone of Christian praxis, and one of the things I wonder in this new "Global Village" is what the answer to the Gospel question "Who is my neighbour?" is now. Christ's answer in the Gospel was the Good Samaritan, but he physically had contact with the suffering man he helped. Has it changed at all as a result of things like the speed of information and the internet? Are the people I chat to on OCnet and on the phone my neighbours? What about people I know of as suffering from poverty on the other side of the world- are they my neighbours even though we have never spoken or met or seen one another?  St. Paul collected money from the Church in Rome to send to the Church in Jerusalem whom they had never met- is that the same? Was that different because it was the CHurch helping the Church?
In the early Church, property was held in common. Clearly people had their own houses, but they shared what they had among the Church, but somehow I sense this is different to the commandment to love our neighbour. I'm not quite clear how, but it does seem different.

In monastic literature we also sometimes see an idea expressed that your clothes should be so crappy that you could throw them outside the door of your place, and leave them for three days, and no one would steal them. Are we gonna follow that idea as well? Wink
When you get to my age, you start dressing for comfort rather than style, and I bet if I left my current everyday clothes outside, no one would steal them. In fact, I park on the street and I haven't locked my car for over eight years and no one has stolen it!

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« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2010, 06:13:03 PM »

To point out the hypocrisy in one's words or conduct is appropriate, since this is a judgment of behavior and ideas.  To call someone a hypocrite is an ad hominem in that you're attacking the person.  With that distinction in mind, let us stop calling each other hypocrites.  Jesus did that, but that doesn't mean you have the spiritual discernment to make that judgment yourself.
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« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2010, 06:19:52 PM »

When you get to my age, you start dressing for comfort rather than style, and I bet if I left my current everyday clothes outside, no one would steal them. In fact, I park on the street and I haven't locked my car for over eight years and no one has stolen it!

Well, the same for me, really; it's shorts and an old t shirt most of the time, unless the context (e.g. Liturgy) requires something better. But I think the monks were speaking of clothes that were a bit grimier and smellier than you probably wear Wink I also leave my car unlocked most of the time... I doubt thieves have much interest in a car from 1993 that has peeling paint and 145,000 miles on it  Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2010, 06:22:01 PM »

Interesting that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers (forcefully removed from their contexts) to lecture Orthodox Christians on what he perceives to be their charitable obligations.
I'm not sure why this should be an issue. I don't think Bogoliubtsy was lecturing anyone. And don't Christians have charitable obligations? Christian praxis stems from The Two Great Commandments which are nothing other than our obligations to love God and love our neighbour as our self;-and everyone, Christian or non-Christian, knows this is the requirement of our Faith, so even an Atheist is able to keep us honest.
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« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2010, 06:40:02 PM »

I also leave my car unlocked most of the time... I doubt thieves have much interest in a car from 1993 that has peeling paint and 145,000 miles on it  Tongue
Well, interestingly, I don't think that's far from what the Fathers meant about monks having such clothes as would not be stolen if you left them outside. I think its more about not trying to make a scene or using outward visible signs of wealth (or holiness).
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« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2010, 06:42:34 PM »

Interesting that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers (forcefully removed from their contexts) to lecture Orthodox Christians on what he perceives to be their charitable obligations.
I'm not sure why this should be an issue. I don't think Bogoliubtsy was lecturing anyone. And don't Christians have charitable obligations? Christian praxis stems from The Two Great Commandments which are nothing other than our obligations to love God and love our neighbour as our self;-and everyone, Christian or non-Christian, knows this is the requirement of our Faith, so even an Atheist is able to keep us honest.
But to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers to communicate a message they may not have intended implies a knowledge of the Fathers that may, in fact, not exist.  If, for instance, Bogoliubtsy had decided to express his message in a way that didn't involve a distortion of the doctrines of the Fathers, I would have probably responded differently.  For one to use the Fathers to effectively communicate a message to those who follow after the Fathers, one should probably speak from the foundation of the fullness of the faith of the Fathers, and that is that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead.

As to our charitable obligations, I never once denied that we Christians have any--I spoke of Matthew 25, while you spoke of Matthew 22--so I really don't disagree with your statements on this matter.
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« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2010, 06:52:20 PM »

Interesting that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers (forcefully removed from their contexts) to lecture Orthodox Christians on what he perceives to be their charitable obligations.
I'm not sure why this should be an issue. I don't think Bogoliubtsy was lecturing anyone. And don't Christians have charitable obligations? Christian praxis stems from The Two Great Commandments which are nothing other than our obligations to love God and love our neighbour as our self;-and everyone, Christian or non-Christian, knows this is the requirement of our Faith, so even an Atheist is able to keep us honest.
But to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers to communicate a message they may not have intended implies a knowledge of the Fathers that may, in fact, not exist.  If, for instance, Bogoliubtsy had decided to express his message in a way that didn't involve a distortion of the doctrines of the Fathers, I would have probably responded differently.  For one to use the Fathers to effectively communicate a message to those who follow after the Fathers, one should probably speak from the foundation of the fullness of the faith of the Fathers, and that is that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead.

As to our charitable obligations, I never once denied that we Christians have any--I spoke of Matthew 25, while you spoke of Matthew 22--so I really don't disagree with your statements on this matter.
What I was actually asking is what difference it makes to this thread "that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts..." Not that I'm even sure that Bogoliubsty denies the bodily Resurrection, but even if he did, what difference does it make?
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« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2010, 07:01:35 PM »

If I may chime in here  Smiley

I concluded the recent thread on the historicity of the resurrection by stating that I have much to think about, or something to that effect. Like most, my ideas are not static, but are prone to change when challenged with new information, new insights, and new understandings.  Though I may have argued against the believability of the physical resurrection, I did not argue that I do not believe in a resurrection. Though I do not yet know whether I accept, or will come to accept, an actual physical, flesh and blood resurrection, I do not see how my personal, mental affirmation of this event has much bearing on whether or not I am capable of presenting a few timely and tough selections from the Church Fathers on the subject of poverty and wealth.
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« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2010, 07:02:51 PM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.

How so?  If trhe heart or the liver of someone who is later venerated as a Saint is donated at death to another brother or sister, why would that render the veneration of his relics preposterous?    For example, do we have the heart and liver of Saint John the Baptist for veneration?  No, we don't but the veneration of his head and his arm is not rendered preposterous thereby.

It appears that you didn't understand my criticism. I wasn't speaking of donating organs at all. What I was saying is that your notion that the body ceases to be part of our subsistence after the soul leaves it would appear to render veneration of relics preposterous. Why should we direct veneration towards someone through something that is supposedly no longer part of their subsistence?
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« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2010, 07:11:05 PM »


These Fathers sure sound like bleeding heart liberals.  laugh

For realz.
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« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2010, 08:01:22 PM »

^ These are great endeavors - absolutely. But, as a whole, the Church seems lacking in ministry to the poor in comparison to the emphasis given to this task by other churches. And, even if we are "doing our best", so to speak, there is always more to do in a world where the gap between obscene wealth and poverty is growing greater every day. Perhaps it's something like repentance- can we ever be satisfied and say, "we're doing enough" ?

So 'fess up.  What are you doing in your parish?  What are you doing personally out there is the world of the needy and the desparate?   Three of our boys help out at the Catholic nuns' soup kitchen.   One of our ladies, an accountant, does the books for the Cancer Society for free - that sort of stuff.  You...?  Your parish?

I don't think it's proper to toot one's own horn in this respect, anymore than it's wise to boast of fasting. However, I've worked in homeless shelters, tutored inner city kids, volunteered at my former parish's "food pantry", as well as being involved with organizations that work for more systemic changes in society that will alleviate poverty.  This type of organizational involvement that challenges the structures that create poverty takes up more of my time. I currently don't have a parish, but am hoping, when time permits, to begin helping out in the local Salvation Army and/or Episcopal Church's soup kitchen down the block from me.

May God bless you richly for your love for His needy people.
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« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2010, 08:06:25 PM »

^ These are great endeavors - absolutely. But, as a whole, the Church seems lacking in ministry to the poor in comparison to the emphasis given to this task by other churches. And, even if we are "doing our best", so to speak, there is always more to do in a world where the gap between obscene wealth and poverty is growing greater every day. Perhaps it's something like repentance- can we ever be satisfied and say, "we're doing enough" ?

So 'fess up.  What are you doing in your parish?  What are you doing personally out there is the world of the needy and the desparate?   Three of our boys help out at the Catholic nuns' soup kitchen.   One of our ladies, an accountant, does the books for the Cancer Society for free - that sort of stuff.  You...?  Your parish?

I don't think it's proper to toot one's own horn in this respect, anymore than it's wise to boast of fasting. However, I've worked in homeless shelters, tutored inner city kids, volunteered at my former parish's "food pantry", as well as being involved with organizations that work for more systemic changes in society that will alleviate poverty.  This type of organizational involvement that challenges the structures that create poverty takes up more of my time. I currently don't have a parish, but am hoping, when time permits, to begin helping out in the local Salvation Army and/or Episcopal Church's soup kitchen down the block from me.

May God bless you richly for your love for His needy people.
Gracious! You sure run hot and cold Irish Hermit.
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« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2010, 08:09:14 PM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.

How so?  If trhe heart or the liver of someone who is later venerated as a Saint is donated at death to another brother or sister, why would that render the veneration of his relics preposterous?    For example, do we have the heart and liver of Saint John the Baptist for veneration?  No, we don't but the veneration of his head and his arm is not rendered preposterous thereby.

It appears that you didn't understand my criticism. I wasn't speaking of donating organs at all. What I was saying is that your notion that the body ceases to be part of our subsistence after the soul leaves it would appear to render veneration of relics preposterous. Why should we direct veneration towards someone through something that is supposedly no longer part of their subsistence?

I am still not on the same page as you.  Generally speaking the flesh and the body's organs (the hearts and livers, etc.) of the Saints decay and dissolve just as any other mortals.  What we are left for veneration is bone relics. 
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« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2010, 08:12:40 PM »

^ These are great endeavors - absolutely. But, as a whole, the Church seems lacking in ministry to the poor in comparison to the emphasis given to this task by other churches. And, even if we are "doing our best", so to speak, there is always more to do in a world where the gap between obscene wealth and poverty is growing greater every day. Perhaps it's something like repentance- can we ever be satisfied and say, "we're doing enough" ?

So 'fess up.  What are you doing in your parish?  What are you doing personally out there is the world of the needy and the desparate?   Three of our boys help out at the Catholic nuns' soup kitchen.   One of our ladies, an accountant, does the books for the Cancer Society for free - that sort of stuff.  You...?  Your parish?

I don't think it's proper to toot one's own horn in this respect, anymore than it's wise to boast of fasting. However, I've worked in homeless shelters, tutored inner city kids, volunteered at my former parish's "food pantry", as well as being involved with organizations that work for more systemic changes in society that will alleviate poverty.  This type of organizational involvement that challenges the structures that create poverty takes up more of my time. I currently don't have a parish, but am hoping, when time permits, to begin helping out in the local Salvation Army and/or Episcopal Church's soup kitchen down the block from me.

May God bless you richly for your love for His needy people.
Gracious! You sure run hot and cold Irish Hermit.

We had all assumed, I think, that Bogo was an armchair philanthropist with his words about assisting the poor.   When he told us of his hands-on involvement I thought that it needed some acknowledgement.  Why is that "running hot and cold"?  Indeed I wish to apologise for misjudging him earlier.
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« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2010, 08:12:56 PM »

Interesting that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers (forcefully removed from their contexts) to lecture Orthodox Christians on what he perceives to be their charitable obligations.
I'm not sure why this should be an issue. I don't think Bogoliubtsy was lecturing anyone. And don't Christians have charitable obligations? Christian praxis stems from The Two Great Commandments which are nothing other than our obligations to love God and love our neighbour as our self;-and everyone, Christian or non-Christian, knows this is the requirement of our Faith, so even an Atheist is able to keep us honest.
But to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers to communicate a message they may not have intended implies a knowledge of the Fathers that may, in fact, not exist.  If, for instance, Bogoliubtsy had decided to express his message in a way that didn't involve a distortion of the doctrines of the Fathers, I would have probably responded differently.  For one to use the Fathers to effectively communicate a message to those who follow after the Fathers, one should probably speak from the foundation of the fullness of the faith of the Fathers, and that is that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead.

As to our charitable obligations, I never once denied that we Christians have any--I spoke of Matthew 25, while you spoke of Matthew 22--so I really don't disagree with your statements on this matter.
What I was actually asking is what difference it makes to this thread "that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts..." Not that I'm even sure that Bogoliubsty denies the bodily Resurrection, but even if he did, what difference does it make?
You can take a number of quotes of the Fathers which, wretched out of their context, deny the Divinity of Christ.  Muslims make such lists all the time, and every time I see one I look at their motive, because it is not an exercise in Patristics, but a denial of the Fathers.
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« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2010, 09:09:48 PM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.

How so?  If trhe heart or the liver of someone who is later venerated as a Saint is donated at death to another brother or sister, why would that render the veneration of his relics preposterous?    For example, do we have the heart and liver of Saint John the Baptist for veneration?  No, we don't but the veneration of his head and his arm is not rendered preposterous thereby.

It appears that you didn't understand my criticism. I wasn't speaking of donating organs at all. What I was saying is that your notion that the body ceases to be part of our subsistence after the soul leaves it would appear to render veneration of relics preposterous. Why should we direct veneration towards someone through something that is supposedly no longer part of their subsistence?

I am still not on the same page as you.  Generally speaking the flesh and the body's organs (the hearts and livers, etc.) of the Saints decay and dissolve just as any other mortals.  What we are left for veneration is bone relics. 

You seemed to suggest, in a general sense, that the body (which includes the bones) is no longer part of a person's subsistence after death.
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« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2010, 09:40:20 PM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.

How so?  If trhe heart or the liver of someone who is later venerated as a Saint is donated at death to another brother or sister, why would that render the veneration of his relics preposterous?    For example, do we have the heart and liver of Saint John the Baptist for veneration?  No, we don't but the veneration of his head and his arm is not rendered preposterous thereby.

It appears that you didn't understand my criticism. I wasn't speaking of donating organs at all. What I was saying is that your notion that the body ceases to be part of our subsistence after the soul leaves it would appear to render veneration of relics preposterous. Why should we direct veneration towards someone through something that is supposedly no longer part of their subsistence?

I am still not on the same page as you.  Generally speaking the flesh and the body's organs (the hearts and livers, etc.) of the Saints decay and dissolve just as any other mortals.  What we are left for veneration is bone relics. 

You seemed to suggest, in a general sense, that the body (which includes the bones) is no longer part of a person's subsistence after death.

I think we are not quite on the same page.  I thought we were speaking of the decay of the flesh and bodily organs after death?   How do you see that process as being part of the body's subsistence after death?
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« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2010, 09:46:01 PM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.

How so?  If trhe heart or the liver of someone who is later venerated as a Saint is donated at death to another brother or sister, why would that render the veneration of his relics preposterous?    For example, do we have the heart and liver of Saint John the Baptist for veneration?  No, we don't but the veneration of his head and his arm is not rendered preposterous thereby.

It appears that you didn't understand my criticism. I wasn't speaking of donating organs at all. What I was saying is that your notion that the body ceases to be part of our subsistence after the soul leaves it would appear to render veneration of relics preposterous. Why should we direct veneration towards someone through something that is supposedly no longer part of their subsistence?

I am still not on the same page as you.  Generally speaking the flesh and the body's organs (the hearts and livers, etc.) of the Saints decay and dissolve just as any other mortals.  What we are left for veneration is bone relics. 

You seemed to suggest, in a general sense, that the body (which includes the bones) is no longer part of a person's subsistence after death.

I think we are not quite on the same page.  I thought we were speaking of the decay of the flesh and bodily organs after death?   How do you see that process as being part of the body's subsistence after death?

OK, let's try to work through this another way.

If the body is not part of a human's subsistence after death, then why did the Logos stay with His flesh after He died rather than just His soul?
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« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2010, 10:00:35 PM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.

How so?  If trhe heart or the liver of someone who is later venerated as a Saint is donated at death to another brother or sister, why would that render the veneration of his relics preposterous?    For example, do we have the heart and liver of Saint John the Baptist for veneration?  No, we don't but the veneration of his head and his arm is not rendered preposterous thereby.

It appears that you didn't understand my criticism. I wasn't speaking of donating organs at all. What I was saying is that your notion that the body ceases to be part of our subsistence after the soul leaves it would appear to render veneration of relics preposterous. Why should we direct veneration towards someone through something that is supposedly no longer part of their subsistence?

I am still not on the same page as you.  Generally speaking the flesh and the body's organs (the hearts and livers, etc.) of the Saints decay and dissolve just as any other mortals.  What we are left for veneration is bone relics.  

You seemed to suggest, in a general sense, that the body (which includes the bones) is no longer part of a person's subsistence after death.

I think we are not quite on the same page.  I thought we were speaking of the decay of the flesh and bodily organs after death?   How do you see that process as being part of the body's subsistence after death?

OK, let's try to work through this another way.

If the body is not part of a human's subsistence after death, then why did the Logos stay with His flesh after He died rather than just His soul?

The body of the Lord was not subject to corruption after death.

In the grave with the body
in Hell with the soul as God
in Paradise with the thief
and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit
wast Thou, O Christ,  Who fillest all things
and art Thyself uncontainable.

Would you define what you mean by "subsistence after death" for the body.  I think that may be our mutual lack of understanding.
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« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2010, 01:32:34 AM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.

How so?  If trhe heart or the liver of someone who is later venerated as a Saint is donated at death to another brother or sister, why would that render the veneration of his relics preposterous?    For example, do we have the heart and liver of Saint John the Baptist for veneration?  No, we don't but the veneration of his head and his arm is not rendered preposterous thereby.

It appears that you didn't understand my criticism. I wasn't speaking of donating organs at all. What I was saying is that your notion that the body ceases to be part of our subsistence after the soul leaves it would appear to render veneration of relics preposterous. Why should we direct veneration towards someone through something that is supposedly no longer part of their subsistence?

I am still not on the same page as you.  Generally speaking the flesh and the body's organs (the hearts and livers, etc.) of the Saints decay and dissolve just as any other mortals.  What we are left for veneration is bone relics.  

You seemed to suggest, in a general sense, that the body (which includes the bones) is no longer part of a person's subsistence after death.

I think we are not quite on the same page.  I thought we were speaking of the decay of the flesh and bodily organs after death?   How do you see that process as being part of the body's subsistence after death?

OK, let's try to work through this another way.

If the body is not part of a human's subsistence after death, then why did the Logos stay with His flesh after He died rather than just His soul?

The body of the Lord was not subject to corruption after death.

In the grave with the body
in Hell with the soul as God
in Paradise with the thief
and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit
wast Thou, O Christ,  Who fillest all things
and art Thyself uncontainable.

Would you define what you mean by "subsistence after death" for the body.  I think that may be our mutual lack of understanding.

The fact that His body was not subject to decay is not all that relevant to my question. You indicated that when the soul leaves the body that the body ceases to be part of one's subsistence: "with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence". So then my question still applies:

"If the body is not part of a human's subsistence after death, then why did the Logos stay with His flesh after He died rather than just His soul?"
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« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2010, 01:45:12 AM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.

How so?  If trhe heart or the liver of someone who is later venerated as a Saint is donated at death to another brother or sister, why would that render the veneration of his relics preposterous?    For example, do we have the heart and liver of Saint John the Baptist for veneration?  No, we don't but the veneration of his head and his arm is not rendered preposterous thereby.

It appears that you didn't understand my criticism. I wasn't speaking of donating organs at all. What I was saying is that your notion that the body ceases to be part of our subsistence after the soul leaves it would appear to render veneration of relics preposterous. Why should we direct veneration towards someone through something that is supposedly no longer part of their subsistence?

I am still not on the same page as you.  Generally speaking the flesh and the body's organs (the hearts and livers, etc.) of the Saints decay and dissolve just as any other mortals.  What we are left for veneration is bone relics.  

You seemed to suggest, in a general sense, that the body (which includes the bones) is no longer part of a person's subsistence after death.

I think we are not quite on the same page.  I thought we were speaking of the decay of the flesh and bodily organs after death?   How do you see that process as being part of the body's subsistence after death?

OK, let's try to work through this another way.

If the body is not part of a human's subsistence after death, then why did the Logos stay with His flesh after He died rather than just His soul?

The body of the Lord was not subject to corruption after death.

In the grave with the body
in Hell with the soul as God
in Paradise with the thief
and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit
wast Thou, O Christ,  Who fillest all things
and art Thyself uncontainable.

Would you define what you mean by "subsistence after death" for the body.  I think that may be our mutual lack of understanding.

The fact that His body was not subject to decay is not all that relevant to my question. You indicated that when the soul leaves the body that the body ceases to be part of one's subsistence: "with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence". So then my question still applies:

"If the body is not part of a human's subsistence after death, then why did the Logos stay with His flesh after He died rather than just His soul?"

Because He had this fanciful idea that He was going to bring His body back to life about 30 hours later?

Again, you need to define "subsistence." 
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« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2010, 02:02:59 AM »

Property is theft.

- St. Basil the Great

Taking your heart (your property) to the grave with you when it could be used to save the life of a brother or sister - is that theft?

One is part of one's subsistence. One is not. The question is a poor one because it doesn't realize this key difference.

It has not been taken into account that with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence.  They are dead and already beginning the process of decay.

Such a notion seems to render the veneration of relics preposterous.

How so?  If trhe heart or the liver of someone who is later venerated as a Saint is donated at death to another brother or sister, why would that render the veneration of his relics preposterous?    For example, do we have the heart and liver of Saint John the Baptist for veneration?  No, we don't but the veneration of his head and his arm is not rendered preposterous thereby.

It appears that you didn't understand my criticism. I wasn't speaking of donating organs at all. What I was saying is that your notion that the body ceases to be part of our subsistence after the soul leaves it would appear to render veneration of relics preposterous. Why should we direct veneration towards someone through something that is supposedly no longer part of their subsistence?

I am still not on the same page as you.  Generally speaking the flesh and the body's organs (the hearts and livers, etc.) of the Saints decay and dissolve just as any other mortals.  What we are left for veneration is bone relics.  

You seemed to suggest, in a general sense, that the body (which includes the bones) is no longer part of a person's subsistence after death.

I think we are not quite on the same page.  I thought we were speaking of the decay of the flesh and bodily organs after death?   How do you see that process as being part of the body's subsistence after death?

OK, let's try to work through this another way.

If the body is not part of a human's subsistence after death, then why did the Logos stay with His flesh after He died rather than just His soul?

The body of the Lord was not subject to corruption after death.

In the grave with the body
in Hell with the soul as God
in Paradise with the thief
and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit
wast Thou, O Christ,  Who fillest all things
and art Thyself uncontainable.

Would you define what you mean by "subsistence after death" for the body.  I think that may be our mutual lack of understanding.

The fact that His body was not subject to decay is not all that relevant to my question. You indicated that when the soul leaves the body that the body ceases to be part of one's subsistence: "with the departure of the soul from the body organs cease to be part of one's subsistence". So then my question still applies:

"If the body is not part of a human's subsistence after death, then why did the Logos stay with His flesh after He died rather than just His soul?"

Because He had this fanciful idea that He was going to bring His body back to life about 30 hours later?

Again, you need to define "subsistence." 

So you think that the Godhead remained with the body only because of the Resurrection?

I don't see how that sufficiently explains it. The divinity could very well have only remained with the soul, and then three days later the soul could return to the body (as it did anyway) and both the soul and the divinity would be united to the restored body.

I am understanding subsistence to refer to the existing of a person in certain concrete and individuated elements (blood, flesh, spirit, divinity, etc.).
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« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2010, 02:08:41 AM »

The destruction of ties, and the overthrow of nature's laws of union and of the whole corporal structure, cause me anguish and distress intolerable.

...This destructible bond, which as the God of our fathers thou hadst sanctified by thy divine will, should be dissolved, and that his body should be dissolved into the elements from which it was fashioned......

Office at the Parting of the Soul from the Body

-oOo-

I weep and wail when I think upon death, and behold our beauty, fashioned after the image of God, lying in the tomb, disfigured, dishonoured, bereft of form.  O Marvel!  What is this mystery which doth befall us?  Why have we been given over to corruption, and why have we been wedded unto death?

Let us go forth and gaze into the tombs, for man is naked bones, food for the worms, and stench..

Now is life's artful triumph of vanities destroyed.  For the spirit hath vanished from its tabernacle; its clay groweth black.  The vessel is shattered, voiceless, bereft of feeling, motionless, dead.  Dissolved in the grave by decay, by worms in the darkness consumed....

From the Funeral Service.... There is more but I am a slow two-finger typist.
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« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2010, 02:14:19 AM »

....

I'm trying to figure out how that ties into our conversation.
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« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2010, 02:28:57 AM »

....

I'm trying to figure out how that ties into our conversation.

Think intuitively... listen to the Spirit.... let the logical side of your brain have a rest for the moment.   laugh
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« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2010, 04:19:24 AM »

More political posts moved to Politics:  Hard sayings of the Fathers or prooftexting for Marx?

If you wish to talk about our responsibility as Christians to care for the poor, then this public thread is the place for that discussion.  If you want to talk about communism, socialism, Republicanism, or other such politico-economic theories, then please post your comments on the private Politics thread.  Do not post politics on the Public Forum.  Anyone who violates this rule by bringing up any of the aforementioned politico-economic theories on this public thread after I post this general directive will receive a formal warning.
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« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2010, 04:59:59 AM »

....

I'm trying to figure out how that ties into our conversation.

Think intuitively... listen to the Spirit.... let the logical side of your brain have a rest for the moment.   laugh

Well, to put it very simply, I wanted to preserve the point that our body, in so far as it does not decay, does not cease to remain a part of who we are after our soul departs from it.
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« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2010, 05:53:54 AM »

Interesting that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers (forcefully removed from their contexts) to lecture Orthodox Christians on what he perceives to be their charitable obligations.
I'm not sure why this should be an issue. I don't think Bogoliubtsy was lecturing anyone. And don't Christians have charitable obligations? Christian praxis stems from The Two Great Commandments which are nothing other than our obligations to love God and love our neighbour as our self;-and everyone, Christian or non-Christian, knows this is the requirement of our Faith, so even an Atheist is able to keep us honest.
But to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers to communicate a message they may not have intended implies a knowledge of the Fathers that may, in fact, not exist.  If, for instance, Bogoliubtsy had decided to express his message in a way that didn't involve a distortion of the doctrines of the Fathers, I would have probably responded differently.  For one to use the Fathers to effectively communicate a message to those who follow after the Fathers, one should probably speak from the foundation of the fullness of the faith of the Fathers, and that is that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead.

As to our charitable obligations, I never once denied that we Christians have any--I spoke of Matthew 25, while you spoke of Matthew 22--so I really don't disagree with your statements on this matter.
What I was actually asking is what difference it makes to this thread "that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts..." Not that I'm even sure that Bogoliubsty denies the bodily Resurrection, but even if he did, what difference does it make?
You can take a number of quotes of the Fathers which, wretched out of their context, deny the Divinity of Christ.  Muslims make such lists all the time, and every time I see one I look at their motive, because it is not an exercise in Patristics, but a denial of the Fathers.
Let me get this straight. Because Peter questions Bogoliubsty's belief in the bodily Resurrection that means that he is taking the Fathers out of context. Out of what "context" is he taking the Fathers? Can you show that each of the quotes Bologliubsty provided have no bearing on Christian praxis? Even the notion that they apply only to monastics does not make sense from an Orthodox Christian point of view, since an Orthodox monastery is a Community striving to live Orthodox Christianity. Sure, we are not all monks, but monasticism is not something separate to the Church, nor even alien to it. Monasticism is the Gospel life, not something "alternate" to the Gospel life.
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« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2010, 06:38:37 AM »

Interesting that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers (forcefully removed from their contexts) to lecture Orthodox Christians on what he perceives to be their charitable obligations.
I'm not sure why this should be an issue. I don't think Bogoliubtsy was lecturing anyone. And don't Christians have charitable obligations? Christian praxis stems from The Two Great Commandments which are nothing other than our obligations to love God and love our neighbour as our self;-and everyone, Christian or non-Christian, knows this is the requirement of our Faith, so even an Atheist is able to keep us honest.
But to use a list of proof texts from the Fathers to communicate a message they may not have intended implies a knowledge of the Fathers that may, in fact, not exist.  If, for instance, Bogoliubtsy had decided to express his message in a way that didn't involve a distortion of the doctrines of the Fathers, I would have probably responded differently.  For one to use the Fathers to effectively communicate a message to those who follow after the Fathers, one should probably speak from the foundation of the fullness of the faith of the Fathers, and that is that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead.

As to our charitable obligations, I never once denied that we Christians have any--I spoke of Matthew 25, while you spoke of Matthew 22--so I really don't disagree with your statements on this matter.
What I was actually asking is what difference it makes to this thread "that someone who denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, the single most important doctrine of the Christian faith, would presume to use a list of proof texts..." Not that I'm even sure that Bogoliubsty denies the bodily Resurrection, but even if he did, what difference does it make?
You can take a number of quotes of the Fathers which, wretched out of their context, deny the Divinity of Christ.  Muslims make such lists all the time, and every time I see one I look at their motive, because it is not an exercise in Patristics, but a denial of the Fathers.
Let me get this straight. Because Peter questions Bogoliubsty's belief in the bodily Resurrection that means that he is taking the Fathers out of context.
Let me get this straight. You think Peter is taking the Fathers out of context?

Quote
Out of what "context" is he taking the Fathers? Can you show that each of the quotes Bologliubsty provided have no bearing on Christian praxis?
I can show a counter quote that contradicts the agenda for which Bogoliubsky is putting them to use.

Quote
Even the notion that they apply only to monastics does not make sense from an Orthodox Christian point of view, since an Orthodox monastery is a Community striving to live Orthodox Christianity. Sure, we are not all monks, but monasticism is not something separate to the Church, nor even alien to it. Monasticism is the Gospel life, not something "alternate" to the Gospel life.
But it is not "one size fits all" which is a problem that manifests itself, for instance, when you mix monastic spirituality with married life as if they lived on Mt. Athos.  A monk doesn't need possessions: it is irresponsible for a husband and father not to have them.
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« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2010, 10:19:08 AM »

....

I'm trying to figure out how that ties into our conversation.

Think intuitively... listen to the Spirit.... let the logical side of your brain have a rest for the moment.   laugh

What exactly do you mean father. Logos also means reason.  Wink
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« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2010, 03:38:39 AM »

I've never known a "diehard" Orthodox Christian who spends hours and hours on an Orthodox forum to have a flippant response to his own Church Fathers.

 Tell us, then, the point of choosing these particular sayings?  What lesson are you trying to impart?  Looks to me like you got called out.  Wink

They are hard sayings because they relate to a much overlooked issue within the Orthodox world- the Church's relationship, and responsibility to, the poor. The point is to show, in part, the difficulty of living the Gospel and to highlight the shortcomings of the Orthodox world in this respect. If I had taken some abortion and/or sex related "hard sayings", maybe that would have gone over better.  Wink
It is "and" not "or."

Ah, yes. Now I've got your interest. Of course. The poor? Injustice? That's not your speed.

Mathew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

http://kingjbible.com/matthew/7.htm

Put your money where your mouth is.   

I'm a hypocrite because I brought up the fact that Christians should pay attention to the poor? Or that issues of sexuality (minimally mentioned in the NT) seem to take precedence among many Christians?   

Put my money where my mouth is?  How do you know what I do with my money?  I'd also like to point out that these fathers castigate the RICH. I am not rich.

How you see Christ speaking to you is definitely YOUR business and not MINE. But since you're asking ME the question, you're a hypocrite because you should be worried about the log that's in your eye instead of the speck that is in anyone else's.  If you were preocupied with the log, tried to cut down the log, and realize the log is a log in your eye (which I can only assume is a huge problem), then the very nature of your post would be mitigated instantaneously.

The fathers you quoted are castigating the rich...sure...and i'm just going to leave that comment to those who have already tackled it:


I posted quotes from the fathers on the rich and poor, and expressed my view that the Church does not do enough to help the poor, and that calls for telling me to take a look at the log in my own eye?  If I had put up some typical quotes about not judging, or fasting, or some sexually related matter, all would most likely be well here. 

Where is the HYPOCRISY in posting quotes from the fathers on wealth and poverty?

You know what...I tried to make a point, it obviously didn't happen, for me to pursue it any longer would just be belligerent [enter inappropriate word here]
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« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2010, 03:49:19 AM »

Quote
Even the notion that they apply only to monastics does not make sense from an Orthodox Christian point of view, since an Orthodox monastery is a Community striving to live Orthodox Christianity. Sure, we are not all monks, but monasticism is not something separate to the Church, nor even alien to it. Monasticism is the Gospel life, not something "alternate" to the Gospel life.
But it is not "one size fits all" which is a problem that manifests itself, for instance, when you mix monastic spirituality with married life as if they lived on Mt. Athos.  A monk doesn't need possessions: it is irresponsible for a husband and father not to have them.
Which quote from the Fathers which Bogoliubsty provided urges Christian husbands and fathers (or male monastics for that matter) to have no possessions?
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« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2010, 11:03:53 AM »

Quote
Even the notion that they apply only to monastics does not make sense from an Orthodox Christian point of view, since an Orthodox monastery is a Community striving to live Orthodox Christianity. Sure, we are not all monks, but monasticism is not something separate to the Church, nor even alien to it. Monasticism is the Gospel life, not something "alternate" to the Gospel life.
But it is not "one size fits all" which is a problem that manifests itself, for instance, when you mix monastic spirituality with married life as if they lived on Mt. Athos.  A monk doesn't need possessions: it is irresponsible for a husband and father not to have them.
Which quote from the Fathers which Bogoliubsty provided urges Christian husbands and fathers (or male monastics for that matter) to have no possessions?

Some people confuse property with personal possessions.
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« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2010, 10:47:45 AM »

Okay, I think I might have found the original source of St. Basil's quotation.
Wikipedia says that it's in Ascetics, 34:1-2, which I found in the Prolegomena section.
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Q: “Ought any one to be allowed to exercise abstinence beyond his strength, so that he is hindered in the performance of his duty?”

A: “This question does not seem to me to be properly worded.  Temperance does not consist in abstinence from earthly food, wherein lies the ‘neglecting of the body’ condemned by the Apostles, but in complete departure from one’s own wishes.  And how great is the danger of our falling away from the Lord’s commandment on account of our own wishes is clear from the words of the Apostle, ‘fulfilling the desires of the flesh, and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath.’ The numbers in the Cœnobium are not to fall below ten, the number of the eaters of the Paschal supper.” Nothing is to be considered individual and personal property. Even a man’s thoughts are not his own. Private friendships are harmful to the general interests of the community. At meals there is to be a reading, which is to be thought more of than mere material food. The cultivation of the ground is the most suitable occupation for the ascetic life. No fees are to be taken for the charge of children entrusted to the monks. Such children are not to be pledged to join the community till they are old enough to understand what they are about.
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« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2010, 11:19:26 AM »

Okay, I think I might have found the original source of St. Basil's quotation.
Wikipedia says that it's in Ascetics, 34:1-2, which I found in the Prolegomena section.
[On-line at CCEL]

Quote
Q: “Ought any one to be allowed to exercise abstinence beyond his strength, so that he is hindered in the performance of his duty?”

A: “This question does not seem to me to be properly worded.  Temperance does not consist in abstinence from earthly food, wherein lies the ‘neglecting of the body’ condemned by the Apostles, but in complete departure from one’s own wishes.  And how great is the danger of our falling away from the Lord’s commandment on account of our own wishes is clear from the words of the Apostle, ‘fulfilling the desires of the flesh, and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath.’ The numbers in the Cœnobium are not to fall below ten, the number of the eaters of the Paschal supper.”   Nothing is to be considered individual and personal property.  Even a man’s thoughts are not his own. Private friendships are harmful to the general interests of the community. At meals there is to be a reading, which is to be thought more of than mere material food. The cultivation of the ground is the most suitable occupation for the ascetic life. No fees are to be taken for the charge of children entrusted to the monks. Such children are not to be pledged to join the community till they are old enough to understand what they are about.

Interesting how this one wasn't posted in the original list.
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