Author Topic: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?  (Read 18885 times)

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Offline Mexican

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Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« on: January 13, 2010, 09:00:48 PM »
I've been through a bad stage in my life.

Not long ago I heard a heretic preacher saying that the evil performed or caused by parents and grand parents can be punished in the lives of their sons and grandsons, he quoted:

The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation (Numbers 14:18)

Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation (Exodus 34:37).

It was my understanding that this refered to the sin of idolatry, but others say it can refer to any sin, error, bad action, and all evil caused by a an individual.

Did the Church Fathers or saints ever write about this kind of curses? What does the Church says about them?

In fact another example when the Jews said "his blood upon us and upon our children" but I refer to the first kind, the one affecting individuals and their actions.

Thanks!



El Señor es tu sombra a tu mano derecha." De día no te molestará el sol, ni de noche la luna. El Señor te guardará de todo mal; guardará tu alma;" guardará tus salidas y tus entradas desde ahora y por siempre. (Salmo 120)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 09:29:24 PM »
I've been through a bad stage in my life.

Not long ago I heard a heretic preacher saying that the evil performed or caused by parents and grand parents can be punished in the lives of their sons and grandsons, he quoted:

The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation (Numbers 14:18)

Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation (Exodus 34:37).

It was my understanding that this refered to the sin of idolatry, but others say it can refer to any sin, error, bad action, and all evil caused by a an individual.

Did the Church Fathers or saints ever write about this kind of curses? What does the Church says about them?

In fact another example when the Jews said "his blood upon us and upon our children" but I refer to the first kind, the one affecting individuals and their actions.

Thanks!





Why that would be the only prayer of the Jews that God would listen to I"ve never understood, because it's not true.

The Fathers argue the opposite of "generational curses," as the Prophet Ezekiel (18) says:
Quote
1The word of the Lord came to me: 2“What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

“‘The fathers eat sour grapes,

and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3“As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

5“Suppose there is a righteous man

who does what is just and right.

6He does not eat at the mountain shrines

or look to the idols of the house of Israel.

He does not defile his neighbor’s wife

or lie with a woman during her period.

7He does not oppress anyone,

but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.

He does not commit robbery

but gives his food to the hungry

and provides clothing for the naked.

8He does not lend at usury

or take excessive interest.a

He withholds his hand from doing wrong

and judges fairly between man and man.

9He follows my decrees

and faithfully keeps my laws.

That man is righteous;

he will surely live,

declares the Sovereign Lord.

10“Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other thingsb 11(though the father has done none of them):

“He eats at the mountain shrines.

He defiles his neighbor’s wife.

12He oppresses the poor and needy.

He commits robbery.

He does not return what he took in pledge.

He looks to the idols.

He does detestable things.

13He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.

Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.

14“But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

15“He does not eat at the mountain shrines

or look to the idols of the house of Israel.

He does not defile his neighbor’s wife.

16He does not oppress anyone

or require a pledge for a loan.

He does not commit robbery

but gives his food to the hungry

and provides clothing for the naked.

17He withholds his hand from sinc

and takes no usury or excessive interest.

He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.

He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. 18But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

19“Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

21“But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30“Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

The last verse is referenced in the prayers for communion.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2010, 09:34:04 PM »
We reject the idea of inherited guilt as in the notion of Original Sin, so I don't see how children can inherit the guilt of their parents.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2010, 10:03:23 PM »
I wonder if the idea of generational curses is something to do with people (ignorant of any other answer) witnessing the effects of the "sin" of one generation upon those following. Just as an example; a child having birht defects due to a parent having Syphilis - and therefore probably a known record of loose-living, so to speak. The ancient Jews, like so many others, thought that God rewarded with wealth and punished with catastrophe; as a result the man's blindness in the Gospel was seen as the result of sin; either his or his parents.

How awful to think like that. We all have conditions inherited from our parents, or simply genetic flaws; thanks be to God we don't see them as punishments.  
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 10:04:17 PM by Riddikulus »
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Offline Rafa999

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2010, 11:11:08 PM »
Original sin is rejected in the COE as well. The COE anathematized Augustine of Hippo for the teaching of original sin.
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Offline IPC

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2010, 11:12:09 PM »
Dear Mexican,

May God help you in your difficulties.

There is popular saying that says "Son of a dissolute woman" which is used like an insult, but it was originated because usually the sons of dissolute women are accursed, and behave in a very unchristian way and do evil to others.

As we read in the Old testament, there is a curse, up to 7 generations, for persons who do a very heavy sin and did not repent.  

The heretic you've mentioned must be a roman catholic, for it reflects the manicheistic, punitive ideology of catholicism, of "reward-punishment", and their use of the feeling of guilt.

God is not that angry and tyrant "god" preached by the Roman Catholic Church, God is the all loving, and all merciful, and when he chastises someone, He does it for a reason, most of times for correction of the sinner, or those who behold the fate of the unrepentant sinner.

God is quick to forgive and treat us not according to what we deserve, but according to His great mercy. This is why, me, being the chief sinner, deserving every punishment and condemnation, have no other choice but to beg for mercy day and night, night and day, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, be merciful upon me, the sinner". He in His great mercy takes my sins, grants me repentance, humility, His strenght, and so many things, instead of giving me what I deserve.

Those evil and stubborn jews, who continue to rebel against God and His people, as well as idolaters, heretics, and apostates, are accursed, under anathema. But some of them repent and turn back to God, and they are accepted with great honour, and abundant gifts as the prodigal son, for His mercy endureth forever, and His love is so great, that we can't even imagine it. Even the greatest sin, is like a handful of earth, thrown into an endless bottomless sea: the sea of His mercy.


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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2010, 11:21:54 PM »
Dear Mexican,

May God help you in your difficulties.

There is popular saying that says "Son of a dissolute woman" which is used like an insult, but it was originated because usually the sons of dissolute women are accursed, and behave in a very unchristian way and do evil to others.

You mean, like Solomon?


Quote
As we read in the Old testament, there is a curse, up to 7 generations, for persons who do a very heavy sin and did not repent.  

The heretic you've mentioned must be a roman catholic, for it reflects the manicheistic, punitive ideology of catholicism, of "reward-punishment", and their use of the feeling of guilt.

God is not that angry and tyrant "god" preached by the Roman Catholic Church, God is the all loving, and all merciful, and when he chastises someone, He does it for a reason, most of times for correction of the sinner, or those who behold the fate of the unrepentant sinner.

God is quick to forgive and treat us not according to what we deserve, but according to His great mercy. This is why, me, being the chief sinner, deserving every punishment and condemnation, have no other choice but to beg for mercy day and night, night and day, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, be merciful upon me, the sinner". He in His great mercy takes my sins, grants me repentance, humility, His strenght, and so many things, instead of giving me what I deserve.

Those evil and stubborn jews, who continue to rebel against God and His people, as well as idolaters, heretics, and apostates, are accursed, under anathema. But some of them repent and turn back to God, and they are accepted with great honour, and abundant gifts as the prodigal son, for His mercy endureth forever, and His love is so great, that we can't even imagine it. Even the greatest sin, is like a handful of earth, thrown into an endless bottomless sea: the sea of His mercy.
At least you got that last part right.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2010, 11:30:34 PM »
Dear Mexican,

May God help you in your difficulties.

There is popular saying that says "Son of a dissolute woman" which is used like an insult, but it was originated because usually the sons of dissolute women are accursed, and behave in a very unchristian way and do evil to others.

You mean, like Solomon?
Or St. Phanourios? Or Christ who is descended from a couple of adulterers and a harlot?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 11:31:41 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Rafa999

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2010, 11:32:37 PM »
Quote
Those evil and stubborn jews, who continue to rebel against God and His people, as well as idolaters, heretics, and apostates, are accursed, under anathema. But some of them repent and turn back to God, and they are accepted with great honour, and abundant gifts as the prodigal son, for His mercy endureth forever, and His love is so great, that we can't even imagine it. Even the greatest sin, is like a handful of earth, thrown into an endless bottomless sea: the sea of His mercy.

ummm....this sounds really really bad. What a great way to invite somebody to your faith, saying they are "cursed". Or apostates or heretics or idolaters (but that last one I suppose is ok since idolatry is a very dangerous sin which we must work to get people out of). You do know that according to my church which is apostolic and founded before that of Russia you guys are way off right?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 11:32:58 PM by Rafa999 »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 03:30:07 AM »
Quote
Those evil and stubborn jews, who continue to rebel against God and His people, as well as idolaters, heretics, and apostates, are accursed, under anathema. But some of them repent and turn back to God, and they are accepted with great honour, and abundant gifts as the prodigal son, for His mercy endureth forever, and His love is so great, that we can't even imagine it. Even the greatest sin, is like a handful of earth, thrown into an endless bottomless sea: the sea of His mercy.

ummm....this sounds really really bad. What a great way to invite somebody to your faith, saying they are "cursed". Or apostates or heretics or idolaters (but that last one I suppose is ok since idolatry is a very dangerous sin which we must work to get people out of). You do know that according to my church which is apostolic and founded before that of Russia you guys are way off right?
Judging from your comments on another thread, I'm not sure you've really established the apostolicity of your church.  I also don't see how the fact that your "church" is "older" grants it any more credibility.  A church that has fallen into heresy, if you are indeed representing her teachings correctly, ceases to be the Church and can therefore not be called "older", for it cannot even be called "church".

You are also aware that the Orthodox Church that is in Russia is just as old as the Orthodox Church that is in Constantinople, which is just as old as the Orthodox Church that is in Antioch?  They are all one Church, regardless of where the Church is located geographically.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2010, 05:21:05 AM »
The concept of "inherited guilt" may not be in the Eastern Fathers, but the concept of the "ancestral curse" is. This is a reference to accursed estrangement from God that we inherited from the original sin of Adam/Eve, but which was reversed by the Incarnation of the Word, for those who choose to participate in His Covenant.

Offline Papist

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2010, 01:10:14 PM »
Original sin is rejected in the COE as well. The COE anathematized Augustine of Hippo for the teaching of original sin.
Wow.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2010, 02:11:40 PM »
Original sin is rejected in the COE as well. The COE anathematized Augustine of Hippo for the teaching of original sin.
Wow.

Is that a suprise.  Ephesus not only followed St. Cyril in condemning Nestorius, but St. Augustine in condemning Celestine, the promulgator of Pelagianism.
Quote
Canon IV.

If any of the clergy should fall away, and publicly or privately presume to maintain the doctrines of Nestorius or Celestius, it is declared just by the holy Synod that these also should be deposed.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.vi.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.vii.html
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Papist

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2010, 04:23:16 PM »
Original sin is rejected in the COE as well. The COE anathematized Augustine of Hippo for the teaching of original sin.
Wow.

Is that a suprise.  Ephesus not only followed St. Cyril in condemning Nestorius, but St. Augustine in condemning Celestine, the promulgator of Pelagianism.
Quote
Canon IV.

If any of the clergy should fall away, and publicly or privately presume to maintain the doctrines of Nestorius or Celestius, it is declared just by the holy Synod that these also should be deposed.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.vi.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.vii.html
Oh I know. Its just amazing to me to see in print that their church excommunicated St. Augustine. To me its like some one excommunicating St. John of Damascus or St. Ignaitus of Antioch.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2010, 04:44:41 PM »
Original sin is rejected in the COE as well. The COE anathematized Augustine of Hippo for the teaching of original sin.
Wow.

Is that a suprise.  Ephesus not only followed St. Cyril in condemning Nestorius, but St. Augustine in condemning Celestine, the promulgator of Pelagianism.
Quote
Canon IV.

If any of the clergy should fall away, and publicly or privately presume to maintain the doctrines of Nestorius or Celestius, it is declared just by the holy Synod that these also should be deposed.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.vi.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.vii.html
Oh I know. Its just amazing to me to see in print that their church excommunicated St. Augustine. To me its like some one excommunicating St. John of Damascus or St. Ignaitus of Antioch.
Why should that surprise you?  I'm sure you've seen some of us at OC.net, especially on the Faith Issues board, argue that we EO don't recognize Augustine to be a saint.  Of course, this isn't the same as excommunication, and you know that it's also so not true. :)
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Offline Papist

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2010, 05:00:51 PM »
Original sin is rejected in the COE as well. The COE anathematized Augustine of Hippo for the teaching of original sin.
Wow.

Is that a suprise.  Ephesus not only followed St. Cyril in condemning Nestorius, but St. Augustine in condemning Celestine, the promulgator of Pelagianism.
Quote
Canon IV.

If any of the clergy should fall away, and publicly or privately presume to maintain the doctrines of Nestorius or Celestius, it is declared just by the holy Synod that these also should be deposed.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.vi.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.vii.html
Oh I know. Its just amazing to me to see in print that their church excommunicated St. Augustine. To me its like some one excommunicating St. John of Damascus or St. Ignaitus of Antioch.
Why should that surprise you?  I'm sure you've seen some of us at OC.net, especially on the Faith Issues board, argue that we EO don't recognize Augustine to be a saint.  Of course, this isn't the same as excommunication, and you know that it's also so not true. :)
Father Ambrose says that he is a saint. Being a priest I thought he represented the most accurate view of St. Augustine in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
That being said, I have never heard of the Orthodox Church excommunicating St. Augustine.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 05:01:52 PM by Papist »
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Offline ignatius

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2010, 05:33:48 PM »
Original sin is rejected in the COE as well. The COE anathematized Augustine of Hippo for the teaching of original sin.
Wow.

Is that a suprise.  Ephesus not only followed St. Cyril in condemning Nestorius, but St. Augustine in condemning Celestine, the promulgator of Pelagianism.
Quote
Canon IV.

If any of the clergy should fall away, and publicly or privately presume to maintain the doctrines of Nestorius or Celestius, it is declared just by the holy Synod that these also should be deposed.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.vi.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.vii.html
Oh I know. Its just amazing to me to see in print that their church excommunicated St. Augustine. To me its like some one excommunicating St. John of Damascus or St. Ignaitus of Antioch.
Why should that surprise you?  I'm sure you've seen some of us at OC.net, especially on the Faith Issues board, argue that we EO don't recognize Augustine to be a saint.  Of course, this isn't the same as excommunication, and you know that it's also so not true. :)

I thought the Canon of the Orthodox was within their Liturgy? St. Augustine of Hippo is in your Liturgy. How can that be?
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2010, 05:35:16 PM »
This passage has nothing to do with genetics, Original Sin, or anything like that. When parents sin habitually, and do not engage in repentance, they teach their children that repentance is unnecessary. I have literally dozens of students who cannot admit they are wrong, blame others for their own failures, argue over the silliest of things--and when I meet the parents, I find out exactly why their children behave this way. So whatever sins the parents engage in, the children are likely to not only repeat but exceed. Fortunately, for the parents who teach their children the right way to live, even though they may have flaws, their children are exceptionally well-behaved and exhibit a great deal of character even at a young age. Such is the truth the Prophet Ezekiel was proclaiming.
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Offline Mexican

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2010, 09:00:04 PM »
I usually do not refer to Roman Catholics as heretics, when I said heretic I refered to a Protestant American-like Evangelical preacher that I saw on TV.

The preacher who mentioned generational curses on TV was an Evangelical Protestant.

By the way, my question had no relationship with Original Sin as understood by the RC but with the kind of generational curse mentioned in Exodus. The RC usually rejects the Evangelical notion of generational curse as adressed by that preacher.

Ezequiel the Prophet explained that men are judged for their own sins and not for those of their parents. I understood this, but how could this be reconciled with what is written on Exodus?
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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2010, 11:33:33 PM »
This passage has nothing to do with genetics, Original Sin, or anything like that. When parents sin habitually, and do not engage in repentance, they teach their children that repentance is unnecessary. I have literally dozens of students who cannot admit they are wrong, blame others for their own failures, argue over the silliest of things--and when I meet the parents, I find out exactly why their children behave this way. So whatever sins the parents engage in, the children are likely to not only repeat but exceed. Fortunately, for the parents who teach their children the right way to live, even though they may have flaws, their children are exceptionally well-behaved and exhibit a great deal of character even at a young age. Such is the truth the Prophet Ezekiel was proclaiming.

I would agree with you. Alcoholism, drug addiction, and any kind of abuse or neglect can all be reasons which will curse or cripple the next generation. Likewise, families who live good lives and give their children much love will bless their children with a holy inheritance. But much more will be expected of those who have received a blessed inheritance than those who have not. Fr. Tom Hopko shared that thought with a few years ago at a retreat.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 11:34:49 PM by Tamara »

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2010, 11:42:25 PM »
"...and there shall be no more curses..." [Revelation 22:3]

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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2010, 12:23:41 AM »
We use the argument that the new covenant is for us and our seed when debating with certain Protestants over paedobaptism.  If the blessings of the new covenant can pass down through generations, I don't see why curses cannot.  Ultimately there is no dogmatic consensus on this issue, so Orthodox Christians are going to argue both ways.  I agree with what others have said about learned behaviors from parents to children.  I believe in generational curses I suppose, but I also know that Christ can break these chains and free people from these curses.

Does God impose the curses?  That is another question entirely.

Offline Tamara

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2010, 12:50:50 AM »
We use the argument that the new covenant is for us and our seed when debating with certain Protestants over paedobaptism.  If the blessings of the new covenant can pass down through generations, I don't see why curses cannot.  Ultimately there is no dogmatic consensus on this issue, so Orthodox Christians are going to argue both ways.  I agree with what others have said about learned behaviors from parents to children.  I believe in generational curses I suppose, but I also know that Christ can break these chains and free people from these curses.

Does God impose the curses?  That is another question entirely.

I don't believe God imposes the curses. I think the curses are brought upon us by our own choices. I agree that some can break free of the curses they received at the hands of their families but still less would be expected from someone who hasn't been given as much. Also, those who have been given blessings from their families can squander them.

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2010, 01:11:15 AM »
We use the argument that the new covenant is for us and our seed when debating with certain Protestants over paedobaptism.  If the blessings of the new covenant can pass down through generations, I don't see why curses cannot.  Ultimately there is no dogmatic consensus on this issue, so Orthodox Christians are going to argue both ways.  I agree with what others have said about learned behaviors from parents to children.  I believe in generational curses I suppose, but I also know that Christ can break these chains and free people from these curses.

Does God impose the curses?  That is another question entirely.

I don't believe God imposes the curses. I think the curses are brought upon us by our own choices. I agree that some can break free of the curses they received at the hands of their families but still less would be expected from someone who hasn't been given as much. Also, those who have been given blessings from their families can squander them.

It appears to me, from personally watching generations unfold, that too often a *curse* is the result of traits inherited without anyone picking up that there is a problem to deal with in the first place; thus alcoholism, compulsive gambling, irrational jealousy, uncontrolled temper tantrums, and a myriad of other things get handed down to *curse* each generation; making life miserable; all due to inherited temperaments that go unchecked. Once someone acknowledges the problem or it's weakened by new blood (that might take a few generations) the *curse* is broken - and often this is acchieved by means of faith. Anyway, this is one of the ways I see the "sins of the fathers falling upon the children", because I really don't believe that God imposes curses.  
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 01:41:49 AM by Riddikulus »
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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2010, 01:47:05 AM »
We use the argument that the new covenant is for us and our seed when debating with certain Protestants over paedobaptism.  If the blessings of the new covenant can pass down through generations, I don't see why curses cannot.  Ultimately there is no dogmatic consensus on this issue, so Orthodox Christians are going to argue both ways.  I agree with what others have said about learned behaviors from parents to children.  I believe in generational curses I suppose, but I also know that Christ can break these chains and free people from these curses.

Does God impose the curses?  That is another question entirely.


I don't believe God imposes the curses. I think the curses are brought upon us by our own choices. I agree that some can break free of the curses they received at the hands of their families but still less would be expected from someone who hasn't been given as much. Also, those who have been given blessings from their families can squander them.

Oops I tried to modify my previous post too late and something strange happened. Anyway, here are my afterthoughts.

While someone always pays for sin ( or is punished for them ) in the sense of suffering the consequences, even sins of our forebears, I really don't believe that God imposes curses.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 01:53:37 AM by Riddikulus »
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Offline Tamara

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2010, 02:00:28 AM »
We use the argument that the new covenant is for us and our seed when debating with certain Protestants over paedobaptism.  If the blessings of the new covenant can pass down through generations, I don't see why curses cannot.  Ultimately there is no dogmatic consensus on this issue, so Orthodox Christians are going to argue both ways.  I agree with what others have said about learned behaviors from parents to children.  I believe in generational curses I suppose, but I also know that Christ can break these chains and free people from these curses.

Does God impose the curses?  That is another question entirely.

I don't believe God imposes the curses. I think the curses are brought upon us by our own choices. I agree that some can break free of the curses they received at the hands of their families but still less would be expected from someone who hasn't been given as much. Also, those who have been given blessings from their families can squander them.

It appears to me, from personally watching generations unfold, that too often a *curse* is the result of traits inherited without anyone picking up that there is a problem to deal with in the first place; thus alcoholism, compulsive gambling, irrational jealousy, uncontrolled temper tantrums, and a myriad of other things get handed down to *curse* each generation; making life miserable; all due to inherited temperaments that go unchecked. Once someone acknowledges the problem or it's weakened by new blood (that might take a few generations) the *curse* is broken - and often this is acchieved by means of faith. Anyway, this is one of the ways I see the "sins of the fathers falling upon the children", because I really don't believe that God imposes curses.  

What you say makes so much sense. It is sad to see some families live the same nightmare over and over again, with each new generation. I think God can only bless us.

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2010, 02:07:29 AM »
Not that this is an orthodox dogma, but orthodox folks, in traditionally Orthodox countries, do believe that it is possible that there be certain curses passed on within certain families, so they often seek whatever help is available, from the official Church, as well as from people whose relationship with the Church is quite hazy.
Oftentimes priests themselves would officiate rites not really fount in any Church book at the request of these people.
I've met quite a few cases back home.
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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2010, 10:44:58 AM »
This passage has nothing to do with genetics, Original Sin, or anything like that. When parents sin habitually, and do not engage in repentance, they teach their children that repentance is unnecessary. I have literally dozens of students who cannot admit they are wrong, blame others for their own failures, argue over the silliest of things--and when I meet the parents, I find out exactly why their children behave this way. So whatever sins the parents engage in, the children are likely to not only repeat but exceed. Fortunately, for the parents who teach their children the right way to live, even though they may have flaws, their children are exceptionally well-behaved and exhibit a great deal of character even at a young age. Such is the truth the Prophet Ezekiel was proclaiming.

I see generational curses as those sin habits taught to the children wether willfully or in ignorance.  It is not that the children are guilty of the parents sins, but the children tend to pick up on the habits that are correct and those that are wrong.

Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2010, 11:40:06 AM »


Those evil and stubborn jews, who continue to rebel against God and His people, as well as idolaters, heretics, and apostates, are accursed, under anathema.

What on earth is your problem? Every other post you make has some derogatory comment about Jews, or non "super Orthodox" or non Christians in general. It's a good thing you weren't the first Orthodox person I ever encountered or else I would have ran fleeing for the hills away from the Church.


Quote
But some of them repent and turn back to God,

Tell us, how can a  Jew (never having been a Christian) "turn back" to Christianity? Wouldn't they be coming to Christ for the first time? The same applies to Hindus, Muslims and in your view Catholics and Protestants. How can a 21st century Roman Catholic born in Ireland "turn back" to God (which I presume you mean EO = God) if they never were Orthodox to begin with, nor were their ancestors for at least 1000 years? (in the case of say Native Americans, their ancestors NEVER were Christians at all)

They might be able to turn towards the Orthodox faith, but they certainly aren't turning "back" to anything unless they were previously Orthodox Christians themselves. And no, the fact that "Ireland was Orthodox" in some loose sense of being part of the united Church 1200 years ago doesn't count, because just as we don't believe in generational curses, we also as far as I know, don't believe that the faith of my great, great, great X 30 grand father has any bearing on what I do or believe today. And so if everyone is responsible for their own faith and own choices, then that gives us the responsibility to shine the light of Christ, not go around calling people "evil" and "stubborn".

You want to know why Jews find Christ to be such a stumbling block? it's because for 1900 years Christians have gone around calling them "evil, the spawn of satan, demons, stubborn and ungodly".....that to me doesn't seem the best method of winning people to Christianity.




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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2010, 06:41:16 PM »

Tell us, how can a  Jew (never having been a Christian) "turn back" to Christianity? Wouldn't they be coming to Christ for the first time?

...

How can a 21st century Roman Catholic born in Ireland "turn back" to God (which I presume you mean EO = God) if they never were Orthodox to begin with, nor were their ancestors for at least 1000 years?

On a collective level, the Jews were once followers of the pre-Incarnate Logos. They lost any claim of discipleship to Him in the events of the Gospels. That is, except for the ones who actually did choose to follow Him, they being the true Jews.

The same principle can be applied to Romanists. They were once orthodox. If a Romanist now converts to orthodoxy, it is on a certain level them "turning back", at least in relation to their fellow churchmen.

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2010, 03:09:58 AM »
Should this thread be split off into a discussion about Augustine? Seems to be deviating from the question at hand regarding generational curses.

Selam
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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2010, 03:22:57 AM »
Should this thread be split off into a discussion about Augustine? Seems to be deviating from the question at hand regarding generational curses.

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Yes, it should.  Tangent has gone HERE.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 03:33:46 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2010, 11:16:23 PM »
Dear NorthernPines,

The comments about jews, are justifyed by their actions. We signed a petition called "of the 5000" in Russia, where we ask the Attorney General of the Russian Federation, to stop the relentless attacks and violence of the jews. Here is the text in english so you can be familiar with some of the many evils done by the jews to the russian people. http://www.russia-talk.com/rf/obrashchenie-en.htm Read and learn. And this, not to mention the preminent role of jews in the genocide of true orthodox christians in massive public excecutions, concentration camps (GULAGS) and special "psychiatric units" over the course of nearly a century. Stalin was very influenced by his jewish wife "Kaka", one of the very few persons who he treated as a human being, and whom he considered intelligent, it was under her influence that Stalin's fury against christians intensifyed. None of us have received human "justice" none of us have been given back what was taken from us, and there won't be any "Nüremberg Trials" to condemn authorities of jewish background who participated in the hollocaust, there won't be any movie about the russian golgotha, no hollocaust memorials worldwide, and we won't be respected or even heard.

On the other hand, the Moscow Patriarchate, which is impossible to even call a church, has been created by the godless authorities to destroy the Church, as if that was possible, and constantly violates not only the dogmas and canons of the orthodox church, but the laws of basic decency, by trying to eliminate every single Russian True Orthodox Christian, and silence the Gospel of the Lord so they can freely preach their new gospel? What hierarchs were preaching from the ambo, holding a cross in their hands, saying there was no religious persecution in the USSR?. Who expelled the stolen pastor, Metropolitan Evlogii of Paris because he spoke about the religious persecution? Who entices the authorities against us? Who creates rival communities almost side to side to our churches and parishes? Who creates their own "Russian True Orthodox Church" "OCA" "Paris Jurisdiction" "ROCOR" etc. and manage to outsmart the system taking from us all they can in a legal, but unethical way?. Who makes heretics like Florovsky, "saints" and use this as an excuse to spread their heresies?

Catholics have also conducted massacres against the Russian Orthodox People, we remember Hieromartyr Hermogenes, and the massacres done by uniats in ukraïne, not to mention the terrible hollocaust done by catholics in Yugoslavia, when they created the catholic "Croatian State".

The word for repentance in greek is "methaneia" which means a change of heart, to turn back, and when people truly repent, Christ Himself takes them to Himself. So yes, catholics, protestants, moslems, hindus, satanists, native american shamans, and other persons who did not even hear about christianity before, can turn away from evil and turn back to their creator, our Lord and God Jesus Christ.

Now, with the above mentioned real facts, unlike your casuistic and hypothetical statemetns, I have the right to call jews stubborn and evil, I have the right to call the Moscow Patriarchate one of the most evil and dreadful institutions created by the godless judeo-soviet mauve, and I have the right to call the RCC a violent cult preaching a false christ.

If you were the first orthodox christian I met, I wouldn't join your church at all, and probably I would consider orthodoxy as one of many good religions.

That's the problem with many americans and westerners, you don't leave the comfort of your own "little western world", and you simply go with the flow, and get furious with anyone who does not share your views. You are tolerant with those who agree with you only.


IPC,

You were instructed a few months ago to start new threads to state your case that the Moscow Patriarchate is heretical rather than derail existing threads with this mantra.  You were also warned of disciplinary action to follow if you should disregard that directive.  (You can read this prior warning by clicking the following link:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22182.msg337668.html#msg337668)

Seeing that you have decided to trot out this mantra again where it is totally off-topic, you are now on Post Moderation for the next 40 days.  Everything you post during that span will need the approval of a moderator before it will appear on the forum.  If you think I'm being unfair, feel free to appeal my decision to Fr. George via private message.

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« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 12:18:09 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2010, 11:30:05 PM »
Quote
Who makes heretics like Florovsky, "saints" and use this as an excuse to spread their heresies?

Er... Georges Florovsky?

Offline IPC

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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2010, 12:04:23 AM »
Pavel Florensky Asteriktos. A heretic made "saint" by a state institution founded in 1927: the MP.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 12:05:09 AM by IPC »
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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2010, 07:48:10 AM »
Ah, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion must be a most valuable resource for such alleged conspiracy  according to the poster of reply #32?
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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2010, 07:54:20 AM »
Pavel Florensky Asteriktos. A heretic made "saint" by a state institution founded in 1927: the MP.


Florensky, from what I understand ,wore his cassock in front of Trotsky. From what I read in 2009 book called: "Naming Infinity", he seemed to be a most conscientious, thoughtful, & caring individual priest and scientist who would be easily deemed a "heretic" by smaller minds.
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Re: Generational Curses? An Orthodox view?
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2010, 04:26:42 PM »
Ah, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion must be a most valuable resource for such alleged conspiracy  according to the poster of reply #32?

Pavel Florensky Asteriktos. A heretic made "saint" by a state institution founded in 1927: the MP.


Florensky, from what I understand ,wore his cassock in front of Trotsky. From what I read in 2009 book called: "Naming Infinity", he seemed to be a most conscientious, thoughtful, & caring individual priest and scientist who would be easily deemed a "heretic" by smaller minds.

No need to further derail this thread by taking on what IPC had to say. ;)
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