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« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2010, 01:19:16 AM »

Aquinas's view of heresy as capital crime was typical for his day.  We may find this position harsh and offensive, but we live in a different time.  See Michael Novak's "Aquinas and the Heretics."

Why should we buy that excuse for Aquinas?    The Lord Jesus Christ lived in even harsher times but never recommended murdering heretics or dissidents.  No matter what excuses are brought forth to justify Aquinas he has, as a theologian, shown a singular failure to apprehend the teaching of Christ.  He is far from the spirit of the Gospels.

What would you say if harsher times return?  Russia takes a very hardline on its religious dissidents, Catholic and Protestants - is it time to start exterminating them?
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« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2010, 01:37:40 AM »

Do you remember where Aquinas recommended killing non-Catholics?  I don't mean any disrespect by asking for sources, Father, and I know you're not the sort to say things without being able to back them up- that's just really shocking and I'd like to see where he said it.

Herre are the passges from Aquinas' Summa Theologica:

Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 1/2

I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 2/2

On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."


What you think Aquinas is meaning by "heretics" and what he actually meant by it are not necessarily one and the same. I had the matter explained to me once by a Trad Cath who said that only those who are actually part of the Church and then choosing to pervert its teachings are actually heretics. Thus, all denominations that have already become asunder from it are not heretics in this sense.

How Aquinas views heresy...
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm
This is rather frightening in some respects; he teaches that even repentant heretics should be put to death as a lesson to others!

If we could find a copy of his "Contra errores Graecorum" we would discover in his own words how he viewed the Orthodox.
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« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2010, 01:40:22 AM »

I had the matter explained to me once by a Trad Cath who said that only those who are actually part of the Church and then choosing to pervert its teachings are actually heretics.

This Trad Catholic needs to learn the important distinction between formal and material heretics.
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« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2010, 01:55:19 AM »

I had the matter explained to me once by a Trad Cath who said that only those who are actually part of the Church and then choosing to pervert its teachings are actually heretics.

This Trad Catholic needs to learn the important distinction between formal and material heretics.

Actually, he's the only person I've previously heard of this distinction. He explained that material heretics are those within the Church who hold opinions contrary to orthodoxy but who have not been challenged to relinquish their opinions by the judgment of the Church, whereas formal heretics are also those within the Church who have been challenged to relinquish their opinions by the judgment of the Church and have refused.
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« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2010, 02:45:57 AM »

I had the matter explained to me once by a Trad Cath who said that only those who are actually part of the Church and then choosing to pervert its teachings are actually heretics.

This Trad Catholic needs to learn the important distinction between formal and material heretics.

Actually, he's the only person I've previously heard of this distinction. He explained that material heretics are those within the Church who hold opinions contrary to orthodoxy but who have not been challenged to relinquish their opinions by the judgment of the Church, whereas formal heretics are also those within the Church who have been challenged to relinquish their opinions by the judgment of the Church and have refused.

Interesting that by his definition nobody outside the Catholic Church may be deemed a heretic, whereas I would have called the Baptist minister a material heretic.
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« Reply #95 on: January 15, 2010, 02:58:36 AM »

I had the matter explained to me once by a Trad Cath who said that only those who are actually part of the Church and then choosing to pervert its teachings are actually heretics.

This Trad Catholic needs to learn the important distinction between formal and material heretics.

Actually, he's the only person I've previously heard of this distinction. He explained that material heretics are those within the Church who hold opinions contrary to orthodoxy but who have not been challenged to relinquish their opinions by the judgment of the Church, whereas formal heretics are also those within the Church who have been challenged to relinquish their opinions by the judgment of the Church and have refused.

Interesting that by his definition nobody outside the Catholic Church may be deemed a heretic, whereas I would have called the Baptist minister a material heretic.

Well, it sort of makes sense. If heresy is a "choice", particularly a choice against the judgment of the Church, that choice can really only be made in the same sense if one is under the judgment of the Church in the first place.
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« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2010, 04:01:53 AM »

Well, it sort of makes sense. If heresy is a "choice", particularly a choice against the judgment of the Church, that choice can really only be made in the same sense if one is under the judgment of the Church in the first place.

Yes, but then even many in the Roman Catholic communion are believing heretical ideas, which means that there has to be some level of awareness when committing a heresy to formally be considered a heretic.  When combining these realities, then almost no one is ever culpable for committing heresy, at least formally.
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« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2010, 04:43:42 AM »


Well, it sort of makes sense. If heresy is a "choice", particularly a choice against the judgment of the Church, that choice can really only be made in the same sense if one is under the judgment of the Church in the first place.

Yes, but then even many in the Roman Catholic communion are believing heretical ideas, which means that there has to be some level of awareness when committing a heresy to formally be considered a heretic.  When combining these realities, then almost no one is ever culpable for committing heresy, at least formally.

I think it would be a better idea to refer to them as the heterodox, as such.
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« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2010, 10:14:46 AM »

GregoryLA:  Also, out of curiosity, the Eastern Catholics aren't allowed to/supposed venerate "anti-Catholic" Eastern Orthodox saints are they?  So EC wouldn't venerate say, St. Mark of Ephesus?
   
   
St Job of Pochaev spent his life fighting the Unia by forming Orthodox brotherhoods for that purpose.  Yet he is venerated by many within the Eastern Rite sui juris Byzantine churches.  I know many  within this same eastern rite here in the U.S. who venerate St Alexis Toth who led thousands back into the Orthodox Catholic Church from the Unia.  These are but two examples.

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« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2010, 10:24:40 AM »

Aquinas's view of heresy as capital crime was typical for his day.  We may find this position harsh and offensive, but we live in a different time.  See Michael Novak's "Aquinas and the Heretics."

Why should we buy that excuse for Aquinas?    The Lord Jesus Christ lived in even harsher times but never recommended murdering heretics or dissidents.  No matter what excuses are brought forth to justify Aquinas he has, as a theologian, shown a singular failure to apprehend the teaching of Christ.  He is far from the spirit of the Gospels.

What would you say if harsher times return?  Russia takes a very hardline on its religious dissidents, Catholic and Protestants - is it time to start exterminating them?

Father, are the Orthodox using a double standard? In lectures on the History of the Eastern Roman Empire, I find several Emperors who did the same thing and yet they are called Pious... perhaps some are recognized as saints? I'm not sure about that but are we using a double standard here?
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« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2010, 10:35:24 AM »

GregoryLA:  Also, out of curiosity, the Eastern Catholics aren't allowed to/supposed venerate "anti-Catholic" Eastern Orthodox saints are they?  So EC wouldn't venerate say, St. Mark of Ephesus?
   
   
St Job of Pochaev spent his life fighting the Unia by forming Orthodox brotherhoods for that purpose.  Yet he is venerated by many within the Eastern Rite sui juris Byzantine churches.  I know many  within this same eastern rite here in the U.S. who venerate St Alexis Toth who led thousands back into the Orthodox Catholic Church from the Unia.  These are but two examples.

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Orthodoc, in my experience, there is a broad spectrum of Byzantine Catholics in terms of their theology and praxis. At one end, there are those who retain the church architecture, clerical vestments and "bells and smells" of Orthodoxy, but who are almost or completely Roman Catholic in their liturgical veneration (i.e. which saints are venerated in their churches) and adherence to RC doctrine. At the other end of the scale are those ByzCaths whose only concession to Rome is the western lPaschalion, the filioque (and that, not always), and practically little else.
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« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2010, 11:15:51 AM »

Aquinas's view of heresy as capital crime was typical for his day.  We may find this position harsh and offensive, but we live in a different time.  See Michael Novak's "Aquinas and the Heretics."

Why should we buy that excuse for Aquinas?    The Lord Jesus Christ lived in even harsher times but never recommended murdering heretics or dissidents.  No matter what excuses are brought forth to justify Aquinas he has, as a theologian, shown a singular failure to apprehend the teaching of Christ.  He is far from the spirit of the Gospels.

What would you say if harsher times return?  Russia takes a very hardline on its religious dissidents, Catholic and Protestants - is it time to start exterminating them?
Who is making excuses for Aquinas?
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« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2010, 11:17:04 AM »

I had the matter explained to me once by a Trad Cath who said that only those who are actually part of the Church and then choosing to pervert its teachings are actually heretics.

This Trad Catholic needs to learn the important distinction between formal and material heretics.

Actually, he's the only person I've previously heard of this distinction. He explained that material heretics are those within the Church who hold opinions contrary to orthodoxy but who have not been challenged to relinquish their opinions by the judgment of the Church, whereas formal heretics are also those within the Church who have been challenged to relinquish their opinions by the judgment of the Church and have refused.

Interesting that by his definition nobody outside the Catholic Church may be deemed a heretic, whereas I would have called the Baptist minister a material heretic.
I agree. The baptist minister would be a material heretic. Now is he culpable for his heresy? That is a different story.
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« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2010, 11:22:26 AM »


Well, it sort of makes sense. If heresy is a "choice", particularly a choice against the judgment of the Church, that choice can really only be made in the same sense if one is under the judgment of the Church in the first place.

Yes, but then even many in the Roman Catholic communion are believing heretical ideas, which means that there has to be some level of awareness when committing a heresy to formally be considered a heretic.  When combining these realities, then almost no one is ever culpable for committing heresy, at least formally.

I think it would be a better idea to refer to them as the heterodox, as such.
What is the difference between being a heretic and being heterodox?
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« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2010, 11:24:54 AM »

Do you remember where Aquinas recommended killing non-Catholics?  I don't mean any disrespect by asking for sources, Father, and I know you're not the sort to say things without being able to back them up- that's just really shocking and I'd like to see where he said it.

Herre are the passges from Aquinas' Summa Theologica:

Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 1/2

I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 2/2

On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."


What you think Aquinas is meaning by "heretics" and what he actually meant by it are not necessarily one and the same. I had the matter explained to me once by a Trad Cath who said that only those who are actually part of the Church and then choosing to pervert its teachings are actually heretics. Thus, all denominations that have already become asunder from it are not heretics in this sense.
It has always been my understanding that when Aquinas was referring to the heretics that should be recieve capital punishment, he is talking about men like Arius who where spreading and teaching heresy among the faithful, not your average material heretic.
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« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2010, 11:45:14 AM »

Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
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« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2010, 11:57:06 AM »

Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I think Aquinas is certainly worthy of veneration.
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« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2010, 12:24:50 PM »


They are identical to the Orthodox Church, and the only difference is that they are in communion with the Pope,

The dogmatic traditions are totally different.
To some degree. I actually think that the EC Churches have a great deal in common with the EO Church of centuries past. However, I think that they have become more and more different as time goes on. From my perspective its the EO Church that has changed as it has adopted a more and more anti-latin/anti-western attitude.
Could that be because the West has changed more and more?
I don't think so. There used to be EO theologians who had great respect for Thomas Aquinas and even considered him a darn good theologian, with the exception of the Filioque of course. Now, if you listen to modern EOs you would think Thomas Aquinas ate babies for breakfast and gave candy to small children just so that he could take it away from them.

I couldn't maintain any respect for him when I learnt that he recommended murdering all non-Catholics.   I felt that even allowing for his more harsh days that was just so much a fundamental distortion of the Gospel of Christ that I could not see such a man as a follower of Christ.

I am not sure about what you are saying of Aquinas. But I think you are missing that old testament condemns rebelliousness and heresy with death.

Deuteronomii

XVII:12
12 Qui autem superbierit nolens oboedire sacerdotis imperio, qui eo tempore ministrat Domino Deo tuo, aut decreto iudicis, morietur homo ille, et auferes malum de Israel;

XVIII:20
20 Propheta autem qui, arrogantia depravatus, voluerit loqui in nomine meo, quae ego non praecepi illi ut diceret, aut ex nomine alienorum deorum, interficietur”.


In new testament Paul calls to apart those who are heretics. And he affirms that those have found their damnation.

Titum III: 10-11

10 Haereticum hominem post unam et secundam correptionem devita,
11 sciens quia subversus est, qui eiusmodi est, et delinquit, proprio iudicio condemnatus.


In the time of Aquinas (1225 -1274) Catholics and Bizantines were very confronted after The Fourth Crusade (1202–1204) and after the Massacre of Latins in Constantinople, (1182), he was very aware of that.
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« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2010, 12:27:24 PM »

Aquinas's view of heresy as capital crime was typical for his day.  We may find this position harsh and offensive, but we live in a different time.  See Michael Novak's "Aquinas and the Heretics."

Why should we buy that excuse for Aquinas?    The Lord Jesus Christ lived in even harsher times but never recommended murdering heretics or dissidents.  No matter what excuses are brought forth to justify Aquinas he has, as a theologian, shown a singular failure to apprehend the teaching of Christ.  He is far from the spirit of the Gospels.

What would you say if harsher times return?  Russia takes a very hardline on its religious dissidents, Catholic and Protestants - is it time to start exterminating them?

Your words are disputable, Our Lord Jesus, in fact spoke of that who knowing the truth, betrais it.

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« Reply #109 on: January 15, 2010, 01:18:09 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I think Aquinas is certainly worthy of veneration.

But is he worth imitation? We don't veneration Saints other than they are worth imitation as they were imitators of Christ. Would Christ say we should kill the Pharisees? I don't think so. So we must ask ourselves if he is truly worthy of imitation. I feel the same way about many of the 'Pious' Emperors of the Eastern Empire. Eastern Imperial Culture was not necessarily 'worthy' of imitation from a Christian perspective. The acts of those Emperors were not necessarily 'worthy' of Christian imitation either. So we have the ask the question... why are they venerated as Saints? Was it simply 'cultural' pride of the times?
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« Reply #110 on: January 15, 2010, 01:47:53 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I think Aquinas is certainly worthy of veneration.

But is he worth imitation? We don't veneration Saints other than they are worth imitation as they were imitators of Christ. Would Christ say we should kill the Pharisees? I don't think so. So we must ask ourselves if he is truly worthy of imitation. I feel the same way about many of the 'Pious' Emperors of the Eastern Empire. Eastern Imperial Culture was not necessarily 'worthy' of imitation from a Christian perspective. The acts of those Emperors were not necessarily 'worthy' of Christian imitation either. So we have the ask the question... why are they venerated as Saints? Was it simply 'cultural' pride of the times?
I think that if we were living in a Christian country with Catholicism as the state Church, and we had due process, it would be appropriate to execute men like Arius.
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« Reply #111 on: January 15, 2010, 01:52:30 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I think Aquinas is certainly worthy of veneration.

But is he worth imitation? We don't veneration Saints other than they are worth imitation as they were imitators of Christ. Would Christ say we should kill the Pharisees? I don't think so. So we must ask ourselves if he is truly worthy of imitation. I feel the same way about many of the 'Pious' Emperors of the Eastern Empire. Eastern Imperial Culture was not necessarily 'worthy' of imitation from a Christian perspective. The acts of those Emperors were not necessarily 'worthy' of Christian imitation either. So we have the ask the question... why are they venerated as Saints? Was it simply 'cultural' pride of the times?
I think that if we were living in a Christian country with Catholicism as the state Church, and we had due process, I think it would be appropriate to execute men like Arius.

You only find that attitude 'after' the Church became Imperial. Not before.
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« Reply #112 on: January 15, 2010, 01:54:47 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I think Aquinas is certainly worthy of veneration.

But is he worth imitation? We don't veneration Saints other than they are worth imitation as they were imitators of Christ. Would Christ say we should kill the Pharisees? I don't think so. So we must ask ourselves if he is truly worthy of imitation. I feel the same way about many of the 'Pious' Emperors of the Eastern Empire. Eastern Imperial Culture was not necessarily 'worthy' of imitation from a Christian perspective. The acts of those Emperors were not necessarily 'worthy' of Christian imitation either. So we have the ask the question... why are they venerated as Saints? Was it simply 'cultural' pride of the times?
I think that if we were living in a Christian country with Catholicism as the state Church, and we had due process, I think it would be appropriate to execute men like Arius.

You only find that attitude 'after' the Church became Imperial. Not before.
I am aware of that but I have to think that because men like Arius and Martin Luther put people's souls at stake their crime is more grievous than murder.
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« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2010, 02:15:27 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I think Aquinas is certainly worthy of veneration.

But is he worth imitation? We don't veneration Saints other than they are worth imitation as they were imitators of Christ. Would Christ say we should kill the Pharisees? I don't think so. So we must ask ourselves if he is truly worthy of imitation. I feel the same way about many of the 'Pious' Emperors of the Eastern Empire. Eastern Imperial Culture was not necessarily 'worthy' of imitation from a Christian perspective. The acts of those Emperors were not necessarily 'worthy' of Christian imitation either. So we have the ask the question... why are they venerated as Saints? Was it simply 'cultural' pride of the times?
I think that if we were living in a Christian country with Catholicism as the state Church, and we had due process, I think it would be appropriate to execute men like Arius.

You only find that attitude 'after' the Church became Imperial. Not before.
I am aware of that but I have to think that because men like Arius and Martin Luther put people's souls at stake their crime is more grievous than murder.

James III:14-18

14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.
15 Wisdom of this kind does not come down from above but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.
16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice.
17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace.

Remember Catholic Brothers in Christ, we are called to be light.
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« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2010, 02:22:25 PM »


I am aware of that but I have to think that because men like Arius and Martin Luther put people's souls at stake their crime is more grievous than murder.

And the Pharisees did any less? How did Our Lord deal with them?
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« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2010, 03:18:04 PM »

This is an odd matter. Nobody discusses the sanctity of John Chrysostom despite his horrible words against the Jews, but we're all ready to condemn Thomas Aquinas. He lived in a time and context of state religion: crime against the Church meant crime against the Empire, so it was ordinary that heretics had to be considered as rebels and enemies of the State. The same vehemence was shared even by other saints worthy of veneration such as Cyril of Alexandria who used hard words against heretics. Don't look at the Church Fathers in the same eyes as we do in our days - first millennium Christians were even favourable to slavery, would you restore it in the name of the Church Fathers? Of course, not! Were they heretics or evil? NO! That was the condition the Church was living in those times, and it was valid in those days to have slavery, as well as putting heretics at the stake. The Church, while founded once and for all by God, is a work in progress as for what regards her power to transform the world - the secular world, I mean - according to the Gospel. And sometimes even the saints, being children of their times, thought according to the culture of their days. I don't see any reason to diminish the value of a saint for those reasons.

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2010, 03:22:30 PM »

This is an odd matter. Nobody discusses the sanctity of John Chrysostom despite his horrible words against the Jews, but we're all ready to condemn Thomas Aquinas. He lived in a time and context of state religion: crime against the Church meant crime against the Empire, so it was ordinary that heretics had to be considered as rebels and enemies of the State. The same vehemence was shared even by other saints worthy of veneration such as Cyril of Alexandria who used hard words against heretics. Don't look at the Church Fathers in the same eyes as we do in our days - first millennium Christians were even favourable to slavery, would you restore it in the name of the Church Fathers? Of course, not! Were they heretics or evil? NO! That was the condition the Church was living in those times, and it was valid in those days to have slavery, as well as putting heretics at the stake. The Church, while founded once and for all by God, is a work in progress as for what regards her power to transform the world - the secular world, I mean - according to the Gospel. And sometimes even the saints, being children of their times, thought according to the culture of their days. I don't see any reason to diminish the value of a saint for those reasons.

In Christ,   Alex

Did St. John Chrysostom actually suggest we should 'kill' all the Jews?

I'm not condemning St. Thomas Aquinas, I'm just asking a question... Are Saints to be imitated? Is so then we have a problem... even today.
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« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2010, 03:27:29 PM »

Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.
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« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2010, 03:37:39 PM »

Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.

But what is the source of this hardness? It come from gluttony and drunkenness. Who say so? Moses himself. "Israel ate and was filled and the darling grew fat and frisky". When brute animals feed from a full manger, they grow plump and become more obstinate and hard to hold in check; they endure neither the yoke, the reins, nor the hand of the charioteer. Just so the Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Another prophet hinted at this when he said: "Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer". And still another called the Jews "an untamed calf". Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. ~ St. John Chrysostom
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« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2010, 03:42:28 PM »

 Shocked Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...
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« Reply #120 on: January 15, 2010, 03:43:31 PM »

Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.

But what is the source of this hardness? It come from gluttony and drunkenness. Who say so? Moses himself. "Israel ate and was filled and the darling grew fat and frisky". When brute animals feed from a full manger, they grow plump and become more obstinate and hard to hold in check; they endure neither the yoke, the reins, nor the hand of the charioteer. Just so the Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Another prophet hinted at this when he said: "Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer". And still another called the Jews "an untamed calf". Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. ~ St. John Chrysostom
I think that genocide against the Jews would be a terrible crime. That being said, I think, but could be wrong, that executing a heretic like Arius or Luther would not necessarily be a crime.
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« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2010, 03:52:39 PM »

Shocked Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...

Actually, I am taking his statement 'out of context'... if you read the whole piece, he's not actually saying that anyone should 'kill the Jews'... what I think he's pointing out is that God did at different times to chasten them.
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« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2010, 03:53:12 PM »

Shocked Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...

Actually, I am taking his statement 'out of context'... if you read the whole piece, he's not actually saying that anyone should 'kill the Jews'... what I think he's pointing out is that God did at different times to chasten them.
Fair enough.
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« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2010, 03:58:36 PM »

Shocked Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...

Actually, I am taking his statement 'out of context'... if you read the whole piece, he's not actually saying that anyone should 'kill the Jews'... what I think he's pointing out is that God did at different times to chasten them.
Fair enough.

Our churches are not like that; they are truly frightening and filled with fear. God's presence makes a place frightening because he has power over life and death. In our churches we hear countless homilies on eternal punishments, on rivers of fire, on the venomous worm, on bonds that cannot be burst, or exterior darkness. But the Jews neither know nor dream of these things. They live for their bellies, they gape for the things of this world, their condition is not better than that of pigs or goats because of their wanton ways and excessive gluttony. They know but one thing: to fill their bellies and be drunk, to get all cut and bruised, to be hurt and wounded while fighting for their favorite charioteers. ~ St. John Chrysostom


You know you won't find many Orthodox, or modern Catholics for that matter, speaking about their Parishes as being "truly frightening and filled with fear....".

Perhaps we don't have as much in common with the early Church as you might like to think?
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« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2010, 04:01:48 PM »

Shocked Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...

Actually, I am taking his statement 'out of context'... if you read the whole piece, he's not actually saying that anyone should 'kill the Jews'... what I think he's pointing out is that God did at different times to chasten them.
Fair enough.

Our churches are not like that; they are truly frightening and filled with fear. God's presence makes a place frightening because he has power over life and death. In our churches we hear countless homilies on eternal punishments, on rivers of fire, on the venomous worm, on bonds that cannot be burst, or exterior darkness. But the Jews neither know nor dream of these things. They live for their bellies, they gape for the things of this world, their condition is not better than that of pigs or goats because of their wanton ways and excessive gluttony. They know but one thing: to fill their bellies and be drunk, to get all cut and bruised, to be hurt and wounded while fighting for their favorite charioteers. ~ St. John Chrysostom


You know you won't find many Orthodox, or modern Catholics for that matter, speaking about their Parishes as being "truly frightening and filled with fear....".

Perhaps we don't have as much in common with the early Church as you might like to think?
That is very true, especially when I hear talk only of God's love but never of his justice to those who reject his love.
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« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2010, 04:23:21 PM »

Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.

Even in that case, we shouldn't imitate him on this. "Love your enemies" says the Gospel. John Chrysostom was in error in being filled with hatred for the Jews. So, I think that this is the case to remember that saints were sinners. And yes, they were weak and fallible.
We must imitate Christ. St. Paul is using a correct wording in this: "Be my imitators, as I am of Christ". We must imitate the saints only when they truly imitate Christ. During their lifespans, saints have erred and even sinned (even st. Peter did, according to legend, on the Quo vadis episode!)... and we should separate those moments of weakness from the moments when they truly followed Christ - and in this it's the Church (whatever Church we might belong) to define when a person was judged a saint.
I wouldn't put too much attention on the weaknesses of our ancestors in the faith: how can we judge them, when we make even worse sins? We are just dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, yet we insist that we're taller then giants! This is not how the Gospel works... "Don't judge, if you don't want to be judged".

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2010, 04:32:27 PM »

Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.

Even in that case, we shouldn't imitate him on this. "Love your enemies" says the Gospel. John Chrysostom was in error in being filled with hatred for the Jews. So, I think that this is the case to remember that saints were sinners. And yes, they were weak and fallible.
We must imitate Christ. St. Paul is using a correct wording in this: "Be my imitators, as I am of Christ". We must imitate the saints only when they truly imitate Christ. During their lifespans, saints have erred and even sinned (even st. Peter did, according to legend, on the Quo vadis episode!)... and we should separate those moments of weakness from the moments when they truly followed Christ - and in this it's the Church (whatever Church we might belong) to define when a person was judged a saint.
I wouldn't put too much attention on the weaknesses of our ancestors in the faith: how can we judge them, when we make even worse sins? We are just dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, yet we insist that we're taller then giants! This is not how the Gospel works... "Don't judge, if you don't want to be judged".

In Christ,   Alex

If we don't make judgments, how are we to discern when a Saint is truly imitating Christ? You exercise discernment (i.e. make a judgment) and then right after say "Don't judge....".

That appears to be hypocritical.
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« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2010, 05:43:23 PM »

Shocked Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...

Actually, I am taking his statement 'out of context'... if you read the whole piece, he's not actually saying that anyone should 'kill the Jews'... what I think he's pointing out is that God did at different times to chasten them.
Fair enough.

Our churches are not like that; they are truly frightening and filled with fear. God's presence makes a place frightening because he has power over life and death. In our churches we hear countless homilies on eternal punishments, on rivers of fire, on the venomous worm, on bonds that cannot be burst, or exterior darkness. But the Jews neither know nor dream of these things. They live for their bellies, they gape for the things of this world, their condition is not better than that of pigs or goats because of their wanton ways and excessive gluttony. They know but one thing: to fill their bellies and be drunk, to get all cut and bruised, to be hurt and wounded while fighting for their favorite charioteers. ~ St. John Chrysostom


You know you won't find many Orthodox, or modern Catholics for that matter, speaking about their Parishes as being "truly frightening and filled with fear....".

Perhaps we don't have as much in common with the early Church as you might like to think?
That is very true, especially when I hear talk only of God's love but never of his justice to those who reject his love.


The problem to speak of the justice of the Lord, is that if you start to speak of it, you probably will be qualified as fundamentalist, and people will stop to hear you.
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« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2010, 05:46:37 PM »

Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.

Even in that case, we shouldn't imitate him on this. "Love your enemies" says the Gospel. John Chrysostom was in error in being filled with hatred for the Jews. So, I think that this is the case to remember that saints were sinners. And yes, they were weak and fallible.
We must imitate Christ. St. Paul is using a correct wording in this: "Be my imitators, as I am of Christ". We must imitate the saints only when they truly imitate Christ. During their lifespans, saints have erred and even sinned (even st. Peter did, according to legend, on the Quo vadis episode!)... and we should separate those moments of weakness from the moments when they truly followed Christ - and in this it's the Church (whatever Church we might belong) to define when a person was judged a saint.
I wouldn't put too much attention on the weaknesses of our ancestors in the faith: how can we judge them, when we make even worse sins? We are just dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, yet we insist that we're taller then giants! This is not how the Gospel works... "Don't judge, if you don't want to be judged".

In Christ,   Alex

If we don't make judgments, how are we to discern when a Saint is truly imitating Christ? You exercise discernment (i.e. make a judgment) and then right after say "Don't judge....".

That appears to be hypocritical.


"Judge the sin, don't judge the sinner".
There's no hypocricy in this.
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« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2010, 05:47:26 PM »


The problem to speak of the justice of the Lord, is that if you start to speak of it, you probably will be qualified as fundamentalist, and people will stop to hear you.


So are you then saying that we should change the Gospel because of the hardness of men's hearts?
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« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2010, 05:49:05 PM »

Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.

Even in that case, we shouldn't imitate him on this. "Love your enemies" says the Gospel. John Chrysostom was in error in being filled with hatred for the Jews. So, I think that this is the case to remember that saints were sinners. And yes, they were weak and fallible.
We must imitate Christ. St. Paul is using a correct wording in this: "Be my imitators, as I am of Christ". We must imitate the saints only when they truly imitate Christ. During their lifespans, saints have erred and even sinned (even st. Peter did, according to legend, on the Quo vadis episode!)... and we should separate those moments of weakness from the moments when they truly followed Christ - and in this it's the Church (whatever Church we might belong) to define when a person was judged a saint.
I wouldn't put too much attention on the weaknesses of our ancestors in the faith: how can we judge them, when we make even worse sins? We are just dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, yet we insist that we're taller then giants! This is not how the Gospel works... "Don't judge, if you don't want to be judged".

In Christ,   Alex

If we don't make judgments, how are we to discern when a Saint is truly imitating Christ? You exercise discernment (i.e. make a judgment) and then right after say "Don't judge....".

That appears to be hypocritical.


"Judge the sin, don't judge the sinner".
There's no hypocricy in this.

You appear to conflate... judgment, discernment and condemnation. What do you think Judgment is? Define what you mean by it?
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« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2010, 05:54:32 PM »

In reading through some of these posts, my impression is that the Catholic view of the Orthodox Church is a bit softer than the Orthodox view of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2010, 05:57:48 PM »

Quote
You appear to conflate... judgment, discernment and condemnation. What do you think Judgment is? Define what you mean by it?
Judgment means to condemn somebody as sinner. Discernment, means to distinguish the good from the evil, even in the same person. Condemnation, is judgment for the wicked as inacted by God. This is my understanding, but that's linked to the fact that I translate in Italian "judgment" as "giudizio" and some words in English might sound differently in your language as it does in mine.
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« Reply #133 on: January 15, 2010, 05:58:15 PM »


The problem to speak of the justice of the Lord, is that if you start to speak of it, you probably will be qualified as fundamentalist, and people will stop to hear you.


So are you then saying that we should change the Gospel because of the hardness of men's hearts?


No, I am saying that first, people should be helped to love Our Lord Jesus, and then we have to show them that in love He has commanded us to behave properly, elsewhere there will be not justification and we can fall away from God eternally.
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« Reply #134 on: January 15, 2010, 06:00:58 PM »

In reading through some of these posts, my impression is that the Catholic view of the Orthodox Church is a bit softer than the Orthodox view of the Catholic Church.
It seems to be true, and this thread seems to prove it. Of course, the problem lies in the Catholic church too. The ancient aggressivity towards Orthodoxy since 1000 years ago has left too much scars in the memories of the Orthodox. That's very sad, because the open attitude of Catholicism in our days is really a good occasion for dialogue and eventually reunion.
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"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
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