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Author Topic: Roman Catholic view of Orthodox Church  (Read 39501 times) Average Rating: 0
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Schultz
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« Reply #405 on: August 09, 2010, 10:09:01 AM »

All this bickering could all be avoided if you would merely explain what you meant by your comment, "And rightly so."  That is the crux of our confusion.

We all apologize for being so far beneath you both intellectually and spiritually that we need such extra clarity.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 10:09:32 AM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #406 on: August 09, 2010, 10:13:53 AM »

All this bickering could all be avoided if you would merely explain what you meant by your comment, "And rightly so."  That is the crux of our confusion.

We all apologize for being so far beneath you both intellectually and spiritually that we need such extra clarity.

Thanks for asking in a pleasant way that did not accuse in any way or mock me or put me on the defensive or attribute some sort of strange morality to me.  I cannot tell you...more...how much I appreciated those responses as well as your principled defense of them.

M.
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« Reply #407 on: August 09, 2010, 10:18:32 AM »

I think your own words are enough of an indictment against you in this thread at this point.  There's no point in attempting to discuss this issue with you further; your mind is made up.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 10:18:40 AM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #408 on: August 09, 2010, 10:32:30 AM »

I think your own words are enough of an indictment against you in this thread at this point.  There's no point in attempting to discuss this issue with you further; your mind is made up.



I'd be happy to discuss the substance of sexual morality any time.  But I won't be overridden and have ideas attributed to me that are not mine.  I have enough trouble with the ideas that ARE mine...thank you veddy much.

M.
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« Reply #409 on: August 09, 2010, 10:38:08 AM »

For those just joining us, how we got to the present:

Poster A: I said something.

Poster B:  Really?  When you said that, did you mean THIS?

Poster A: HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT I MEANT THIS!  

Poster C:  But, I think you might have meant THIS, too.  Is that what you meant?

Poster A:  YOUR WORDS ARE SINFUL!  I NEVER MEANT THIS!

Poster D:  But, what did you mean?

Poster A:  I AM NOT GOING TO ANSWER THESE SINFUL ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ME!  

Poster D:  But if you told us what you meant by "something," all the confusion would cease.  We are thick.  Help us understand.

Poster A:  I DONT HAVE TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT MY OWN WORDS BUT WILL GLADLY TALK ABOUT OTHER TANGENTIAL THINGS.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 10:38:35 AM by Schultz » Logged

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« Reply #410 on: August 09, 2010, 10:52:50 AM »

This note from theistgal cannot really be considered an inquiry in good faith...can it?

I mean she tells me quite plainly about my disturbing tendency, not only to blame victims but to excuse criminals!!

You'd need to come up with some pretty clear texts of mine to make that accusation stick in any meaningful way.

Till then I will continue to say that there were words and ideas shoved into my mouth without just cause.

And I will thank you again, for supporting theistgal.

It let's me know how little you think of me...and how distorted the vision.

It is always good to be able to anticipate the best  laugh

Mary

The fact that there was indeed provocation does change the impact of the story just as a woman wearing highly suggestive clothing does change the judge or jury's decision in a rape or attempted rape case.  And rightly so.

Why "rightly"?  Do you believe that a woman wearing "highly suggestive clothing" deserves to be raped?

You do have this disturbing tendency, Mary, to blame the victim and excuse the criminals - in sexual matters as well as in matters involving our Church's unfortunate historical sins.

No woman deserves to be raped, and the people of Constantinople did not deserve to be be attacked.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 10:54:01 AM by elijahmaria » Logged

Schultz
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« Reply #411 on: August 09, 2010, 10:57:42 AM »

And yet, at least two posters have zeroed in on the "And rightly so" comment and only that comment. 

And you continue to ignore them.

It's quite nice to see how little your opinion is of the rest of us, as well.

Good day, madam.
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« Reply #412 on: August 09, 2010, 11:02:45 AM »

And yet, at least two posters have zeroed in on the "And rightly so" comment and only that comment. 

And you continue to ignore them.

It's quite nice to see how little your opinion is of the rest of us, as well.

Good day, madam.

I never ignore people who treat me kindly.  I do tend not to yield to those who do not.

Mary the Madam

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« Reply #413 on: August 09, 2010, 01:24:51 PM »

So anyway....about the Roman Catholic view of the Orthodox Church........  Tongue
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« Reply #414 on: August 09, 2010, 01:29:34 PM »

Good question, Wyatt!  Smiley   I think basically the RC believes the EO is a true Church, or at least part of the true Church - i.e., they have Apostolic succession, valid orders & sacraments, etc.  Does that help a little?
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« Reply #415 on: August 09, 2010, 01:32:31 PM »

Good question, Wyatt!  Smiley   I think basically the RC believes the EO is a true Church, or at least part of the true Church - i.e., they have Apostolic succession, valid orders & sacraments, etc.  Does that help a little?
Thank you for that, but in all honesty I know how our Church views Orthodoxy. What I typed above was my cute way of attempting to get the thread back on topic.  Cheesy
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« Reply #416 on: August 09, 2010, 03:37:35 PM »

Good question, Wyatt!  Smiley   I think basically the RC believes the EO is a true Church, or at least part of the true Church - i.e., they have Apostolic succession, valid orders & sacraments, etc.  Does that help a little?
Yes. The problem that I see is that the view is not symmetric. In other words if
A:= the RC view of the EO
B:= the EO view of the RC
Then A is very different from B.
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« Reply #417 on: August 09, 2010, 04:59:01 PM »

Good question, Wyatt!  Smiley   I think basically the RC believes the EO is a true Church, or at least part of the true Church - i.e., they have Apostolic succession, valid orders & sacraments, etc.  Does that help a little?
Yes. The problem that I see is that the view is not symmetric. In other words if
A:= the RC view of the EO
B:= the EO view of the RC
Then A is very different from B.
Unfortunately this is true, and is something that really saddens me. The official Catholic teaching about the Orthodox is very accepting, yet in the eyes of most Orthodox, we are no closer to being of Apostolic origin than the Protestants.
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« Reply #418 on: August 09, 2010, 05:38:54 PM »

yet in the eyes of most Orthodox, we are no closer to being of Apostolic origin than the Protestants.

Where in the blazes did you get that idea?  Huh
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« Reply #419 on: August 09, 2010, 06:12:34 PM »

yet in the eyes of most Orthodox, we are no closer to being of Apostolic origin than the Protestants.

Where in the blazes did you get that idea?  Huh

I second that!  I have never heard tell of the Orthodox Catholic Church teaching the RCC is not of apostolic origin.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #420 on: August 09, 2010, 06:16:27 PM »

yet in the eyes of most Orthodox, we are no closer to being of Apostolic origin than the Protestants.

Where in the blazes did you get that idea?  Huh

I second that!  I have never heard tell of the Orthodox Catholic Church teaching the RCC is not of apostolic origin.

Orthodoc
Well, maybe not explicitly, but you don't to say it in those words to get a picture that this is pretty close to the consensus. To you, we don't have Apostolic Succession, so therefore no Priesthood, we have no Sacraments, and we perpetuate heresy. That sounds pretty Protestant to me. If I am off base please tell me how so as these are all things I have heard just in the time of being on this forum.
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« Reply #421 on: August 09, 2010, 08:36:48 PM »

To you, we don't have Apostolic Succession, so therefore no Priesthood, we have no Sacraments, and we perpetuate heresy.

True.

That sounds pretty Protestant to me.

Actually, when we say that about you and when you say that about the Protestants, I really do not think that we mean the same thing.

Also, besides these attributes, there are quite a number of things that make the Roman church more similar to the Apostolic Church than the Protestants.
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« Reply #422 on: August 11, 2010, 03:06:02 PM »

Actually, when we say that about you and when you say that about the Protestants, I really do not think that we mean the same thing.

Also, besides these attributes, there are quite a number of things that make the Roman church more similar to the Apostolic Church than the Protestants.
So you guys give us credit for what we have right and for being closer to right than the Protestants? I always get the picture that the Orthodox view is all or nothing, heaven or hell, and that there is no grey area. To me this is evidenced by the fact that, while the Catholic Church makes the distinction between heresy and schism, and considers the Orthodox schismatic, you see us as outright heretics. That is rather sad.
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« Reply #423 on: August 11, 2010, 03:09:16 PM »

Heretics are IN the Church, not OUTSIDE. You believe in some heresies, but as you are OUT of the Church you cannot be consider heretics, but schismatics.
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« Reply #424 on: August 11, 2010, 03:18:02 PM »

Heretics are IN the Church, not OUTSIDE. You believe in some heresies, but as you are OUT of the Church you cannot be consider heretics, but schismatics.

Mike, I don't think this is entirely accurate. When Arius, Nestorius, Euthyches, Paul of Samosata, Appolinarius and the lot were anathematized as heretics, they were put outside the Church and were still referred to as heretics, along with their adherents. A schismatic can still effectively hold the Orthodox faith, but not be in communion with the Church. A heretic does not hold the Orthodox faith, whether or not he is in communion with the Church. Arius was a heretic before Nicea, during Nicea, and after Nicea until he died and still today.
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« Reply #425 on: August 11, 2010, 03:37:21 PM »

Maybe being IN/OUT does not distinguish it but IMO the active choice does. As heresy comes from Greek to choose I would not describe as a heretic someone who was raised by parents outside the Church and they taught him heretical doctrines.
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« Reply #426 on: August 11, 2010, 03:49:26 PM »

Maybe being IN/OUT does not distinguish it but IMO the active choice does. As heresy comes from Greek to choose I would not describe as a heretic someone who was raised by parents outside the Church and they taught him heretical doctrines.

Ah, that's what you're getting at. Yes, I do not think that all heterodox (non-Orthodox of whatever confession) can rightly be described as heretics. From my reading, I do not think that was the belief of blessed Metropolitan Philaret of New York when he wrote about the salvation of the heterodox. A person can honestly hold to non-Orthodox beliefs because that is all he knows, but a heretic is one who rejects and fights against truth. In some cases, perhaps, the line between the two can be blurry.

At the start of the schism in the mid 11th century, the beginning of the papal reformation (a term used by non-partisan historians, but perhaps not by Roman Catholics), there was little difference, IMHO, between the post-schism Western confession of faith and that which existed in the same place prior to the schism. The theological apparatus which would come into place to defend papal supremacy and the filioque amongst other things, was established later, together with various innovations of liturgy and spirituality. So that, at the false council of Florence-Ferara, St. Mark of Ephesus could indeed term them as heretics.

I've always thought it sad that Roman Catholics have not, for their part, termed the Orthodox heretics. To us, IMHO, it makes it seem like the Roman Catholic Church will take a rather wide swath of belief and practice as long as there is some kind of acknowledgment of the Pope. Historically, in its Orthodox period before the schism, the Church  of Rome was much, much less liberal.
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« Reply #427 on: August 11, 2010, 07:13:21 PM »

So you guys give us credit for what we have right and for being closer to right than the Protestants?

Certainly. And I do so even more for the "Eastern Orthodox".

I always get the picture that the Orthodox view is all or nothing, heaven or hell, and that there is no grey area.

Well, of course, with respect to ultimate fates, that will eventually be true. Everyone will either be united with God or rejecting of Him.

Also, with respect to whether a group has sanctifying grace and real, legitimate, efficacious Sacraments or not, this is also true. It doesn't matter how close to the Church you are, if you're not quite part of the Church you do not have real Sacraments.

However, there certainly is something to be said for us being able to share the faith more closely (though obviously not completely) with those who are closer to orthodoxy. And I think there is often an understanding that those communities we are closer in faith to are a higher priority for reunion, as accomplishing it would be easier and also develops a better unified witness to the rest of the world.

To me this is evidenced by the fact that, while the Catholic Church makes the distinction between heresy and schism, and considers the Orthodox schismatic, you see us as outright heretics. That is rather sad.

You assume that because we see you as heretics that we do not make the distinction between heresy and schism? That's funny. It's really not at all the case. We know heresy to be the perversion of the doctrine of the Church. And we know schism to be visible rending from the Church (often for political reasons). The latter does not necessarily involve the former. There are a number of groups which are recognized as being schismatic but not heretical. For instance, this is typically the perspective on the Kyiv Patriarchate. Most recognize you as heretics, on the contrary, because it is believed that you actually have deviated from the dogma of the Church.
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« Reply #428 on: August 11, 2010, 07:13:22 PM »

Heretics are IN the Church, not OUTSIDE. You believe in some heresies, but as you are OUT of the Church you cannot be consider heretics, but schismatics.

However, given that they were once inside the Church, their movement, in origin, is heretical, though they as individuals, perhaps, are not proper heretics.
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« Reply #429 on: August 11, 2010, 07:31:45 PM »

and still today.

How in the blazes would you know something like that?  Huh
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« Reply #430 on: August 11, 2010, 07:31:45 PM »

I've always thought it sad that Roman Catholics have not, for their part, termed the Orthodox heretics.

I think it's clear that they have. It is only recent, perhaps the past 50-100 years that they have avoided doing so, even to the point of denying that we are heretics and identifying us as one in faith. Rome has not been spared from modernist revisionism.

To us, IMHO, it makes it seem like the Roman Catholic Church will take a rather wide swath of belief and practice as long as there is some kind of acknowledgment of the Pope. Historically, in its Orthodox period before the schism, the Church  of Rome was much, much less liberal.

I think if you read more about pre-20th century Romanism you would get a very different picture. Even Vatican I seems vastly different in sentiment than this.
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« Reply #431 on: December 13, 2010, 07:28:00 PM »

Ooops, somehow the software jumped to another thread!
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« Reply #432 on: December 13, 2010, 07:33:01 PM »

* b u m p *

I thought I would bump this thread so that Papist and others have a place to speak about Orthodox atrocities against Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #433 on: December 13, 2010, 10:35:58 PM »

Like when you guys massacred the Latins. But do we really wanna go down this road?
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« Reply #434 on: December 13, 2010, 10:44:18 PM »

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« Reply #435 on: December 13, 2010, 10:48:08 PM »


LOL. Feels like it.
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« Reply #436 on: December 13, 2010, 11:17:00 PM »

Like when you guys massacred the Latins. But do we really wanna go down this road?

Okay, I am now seriously, very confused....

Apparently, (from a different dead thread) as an Italian I sacked Constantinople.  Now, as an Orthodox Christian I apparently massacred the Latins of Constantinople....  How self-hating of me.

 I think you're taking this Original Sin thing a little too far.


 
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« Reply #437 on: December 13, 2010, 11:17:58 PM »

Like when you guys massacred the Latins. But do we really wanna go down this road?

Okay, I am now seriously, very confused....

Apparently, (from a different dead thread) as an Italian I sacked Constantinople.  Now, as an Orthodox Christian I apparently massacred the Latins of Constantinople....  How self-hating of me.

 I think you're taking this Original Sin thing a little too far.


 
LOL. Actually I am over the Sack of Constantinople. I am only using it as an example of how Fr. A uses a double standard.
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« Reply #438 on: December 13, 2010, 11:50:49 PM »

Like when you guys massacred the Latins. But do we really wanna go down this road?

Okay, I am now seriously, very confused....

Apparently, (from a different dead thread) as an Italian I sacked Constantinople.  Now, as an Orthodox Christian I apparently massacred the Latins of Constantinople....  How self-hating of me.

 I think you're taking this Original Sin thing a little too far.


 
LOL. Actually I am over the Sack of Constantinople. I am only using it as an example of how Fr. A uses a double standard.

God forgive you for the way you are insistently misrepresenting me.

I believe that you know that you are doing it, since when I ask you to justify your accusations you are unable to produce anything.
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« Reply #439 on: December 14, 2010, 02:26:05 AM »

OK!  Papist and others have not yet listed any atrocity, so let me break the ice....

I once witnessed a grievous atrocity against the Roman Catholics.  A group of them had come to the Greek cathedral one evening to have a small tour of it .  I was asked to be the translator and help explain all the various sacred utensils, etc.

When it concluded after 30 minutes (and I really thought they were a nice bunch of people) they asked Father Polikarpo if they could contribute to the occasion by singing something.  He did not really understand but being an amiable fellow he said, yes, yes.

Whereupon the Catholic people broke into "Ave Maria."  I was entranced since some of them were from the choir of their own cathedral and it was pretty good to listen to..... but Fr Polikarpo was galvanised into action.  Never, he said later, had he ever imagined he would be subjected to the Latin language in his own church...... So he rushed and turned off all the lights.  Plunged in darkness apart from a few icon lamps confusion set in and the Catholics faltered and stopped singing.

Oh!  What an atrocity!   

I never bothered to explain because although they had seen him rush off I don't think they realised that he was rushing to the switchboard to plunge the church into darkness.

Who's going to give us the next example...?
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« Reply #440 on: December 14, 2010, 09:28:58 AM »

Atrocities against Roman Catholics in modern day Russia

A forum member has just sent me this video clip with the message...

"you want cases of orthodox hate against catholics? I give you this example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7esUOmVB8U8

Do others see this as Orthodox hatred for Roman Catholics?
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« Reply #441 on: December 14, 2010, 11:16:15 AM »

Atrocities against Roman Catholics in modern day Russia

A forum member has just sent me this video clip with the message...

"you want cases of orthodox hate against catholics? I give you this example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7esUOmVB8U8

Do others see this as Orthodox hatred for Roman Catholics?


What would the Vatican do if the Orthodox made a big push for converts in Ireland? We would do very well there I would think. What if we poured in money and resources and sent hundreds of missionaries?
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #442 on: December 14, 2010, 12:59:50 PM »

OK!  Papist and others have not yet listed any atrocity, so let me break the ice....

I once witnessed a grievous atrocity against the Roman Catholics.  A group of them had come to the Greek cathedral one evening to have a small tour of it .  I was asked to be the translator and help explain all the various sacred utensils, etc.

When it concluded after 30 minutes (and I really thought they were a nice bunch of people) they asked Father Polikarpo if they could contribute to the occasion by singing something.  He did not really understand but being an amiable fellow he said, yes, yes.

Whereupon the Catholic people broke into "Ave Maria."  I was entranced since some of them were from the choir of their own cathedral and it was pretty good to listen to..... but Fr Polikarpo was galvanised into action.  Never, he said later, had he ever imagined he would be subjected to the Latin language in his own church...... So he rushed and turned off all the lights.  Plunged in darkness apart from a few icon lamps confusion set in and the Catholics faltered and stopped singing.

Oh!  What an atrocity!   

I never bothered to explain because although they had seen him rush off I don't think they realised that he was rushing to the switchboard to plunge the church into darkness.

Who's going to give us the next example...?
Now that's stupid.
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« Reply #443 on: December 14, 2010, 01:12:08 PM »

Atrocities against Roman Catholics in modern day Russia

A forum member has just sent me this video clip with the message...

"you want cases of orthodox hate against catholics? I give you this example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7esUOmVB8U8

Do others see this as Orthodox hatred for Roman Catholics?


Why don't you talk about what the Serbs did to the Croats in their imperial expansionist activities...Those gentle God-fearing peace loving Serbs...eh?

M.
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« Reply #444 on: December 14, 2010, 02:03:46 PM »

Historical memory is somewhat important, but it is not the only factor which should guide our daily lives or else we run the risk of becoming like, say Osama bin Laden and his jidahist zealots. By that, I mean the fantasy of recouping the Muslim Caliphate, restoring the Great Mosque of Cordoba, reconquering Spain and finishing what St. Stephen stopped at the city gates of Vienna.

I for one didn't massacre anyone of any faith, let alone Roman Catholicism nor did anyone posting here do likewise. History is a funny thing as it is written and passed down by both the losers and the victors. Critical examination of the past requires more than a simplistic recitation of the history as written by one side or the other. God will judge the actions committed by and against His Church  and all of his people.

Frankly, this whole discussion reminds me of the elementary school lunchroom and is being carried on at the same level of civility.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 02:04:28 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #445 on: December 14, 2010, 02:46:02 PM »

Historical memory is somewhat important, but it is not the only factor which should guide our daily lives or else we run the risk of becoming like, say Osama bin Laden and his jidahist zealots. By that, I mean the fantasy of recouping the Muslim Caliphate, restoring the Great Mosque of Cordoba, reconquering Spain and finishing what St. Stephen stopped at the city gates of Vienna.

I for one didn't massacre anyone of any faith, let alone Roman Catholicism nor did anyone posting here do likewise. History is a funny thing as it is written and passed down by both the losers and the victors. Critical examination of the past requires more than a simplistic recitation of the history as written by one side or the other. God will judge the actions committed by and against His Church  and all of his people.

Frankly, this whole discussion reminds me of the elementary school lunchroom and is being carried on at the same level of civility.

Yes!  There is not part of history that is entirely without some legitimate source of shame for all of us as we consider ourselves a part of the greater whole, and frankly I have never met an innocent man or woman except for my own Lord and his Mother, and I have yet to meet them face to face.

M.
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« Reply #446 on: December 14, 2010, 03:10:59 PM »

Atrocities against Roman Catholics in modern day Russia

A forum member has just sent me this video clip with the message...

"you want cases of orthodox hate against catholics? I give you this example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7esUOmVB8U8

Do others see this as Orthodox hatred for Roman Catholics?


No i don't see any hatred....
Russia is just throwing out the trash .................. Grin
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 03:14:14 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #447 on: December 14, 2010, 04:24:11 PM »

It is said that Orthodox do not listen to their hierarchs. Hierarchs cite Berdyaev and praise his theory of creative act. Central to this theory is the dignity of the human person, which is the centre of the Christianity of the future. Every person possesses his dignity and calling them "trash" is libel.
I taught that Stalinism was dead. No, Stalin vsegda ziv! Yes,Stalin is immortal!
Reading this thread makes me sure that Stalin and Lenin shall never die.
When the Russian Church canonises Stalin and Lenin there will be no ecumenism. The next step is to canonise Stalin and Lenin.

But not all Russians and Ukrainians are not Neonazist bullies who massacre the work of honest people. Christ didn't need terrorists, who rob innocent people out of house and home, who make their lives a hell because they have black hair or a slightly darker pigment. The majority of southern Europeans such as Greeks and Serbs are considered inferior race by those neonazists.. But neonazists do not choose. Being blonde and blue-eyed does not save you from being their target, I know from experience.

Look at this, the gubernator of Dnipropetrovsk gives Roman Catholics their church back. In addition, he bequethed an icon of St.Nicholas and ancient icon of the Mother of God.http://catholic-dp.org.ua/nggallery/page-94/album-5/gallery-100/
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« Reply #448 on: December 14, 2010, 05:23:19 PM »

Atrocities against Roman Catholics in modern day Russia

A forum member has just sent me this video clip with the message...

"you want cases of orthodox hate against catholics? I give you this example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7esUOmVB8U8

Do others see this as Orthodox hatred for Roman Catholics?


Why don't you talk about what the Serbs did to the Croats in their imperial expansionist activities
You meant when they guarded the Ottoman March of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #449 on: December 14, 2010, 06:43:49 PM »

When i said Russia is throwing out the trash,i was referring to cults that are coming from other Countries but mostly from the U. S. A. to spread there confusion...Russia Has it own home grown cults and confusion, it doesn't need foreign ones....

Whats Happening in Poland ,is it Plagued with molestations by the Polish Catholic Clergy like all of the other predomanatly Catholic Countries world wide, I say, it's because catholics have elevated there clergy to high to a untouchable class .....So they got away with this evil for Yrs and yrs...In Holy Orthodoxy ,We Do Obey our Clergy And Bishops up to a point ...It's been in the papers just recently Croatia is trying to come to gripps with it own molestations by their own catholic clergy......IF this is what will be imported to our Holy Orthodox Countries we don't want it........Keep Out Your Not Welcome....... Grin But as tourists .......





It is said that Orthodox do not listen to their hierarchs. Hierarchs cite Berdyaev and praise his theory of creative act. Central to this theory is the dignity of the human person, which is the centre of the Christianity of the future. Every person possesses his dignity and calling them "trash" is libel.
I taught that Stalinism was dead. No, Stalin vsegda ziv! Yes,Stalin is immortal!
Reading this thread makes me sure that Stalin and Lenin shall never die.
When the Russian Church canonises Stalin and Lenin there will be no ecumenism. The next step is to canonise Stalin and Lenin.

But not all Russians and Ukrainians are not Neonazist bullies who massacre the work of honest people. Christ didn't need terrorists, who rob innocent people out of house and home, who make their lives a hell because they have black hair or a slightly darker pigment. The majority of southern Europeans such as Greeks and Serbs are considered inferior race by those neonazists.. But neonazists do not choose. Being blonde and blue-eyed does not save you from being their target, I know from experience.

Look at this, the gubernator of Dnipropetrovsk gives Roman Catholics their church back. In addition, he bequethed an icon of St.Nicholas and ancient icon of the Mother of God.http://catholic-dp.org.ua/nggallery/page-94/album-5/gallery-100/
\

« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 06:49:25 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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