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Author Topic: Servitude vs slavery to the Theotokos  (Read 7234 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2010, 02:03:35 PM »

If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?
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« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2010, 02:04:58 PM »

What then does it mean to serve the Theotokos? I understand how we can serve those on earth, by following their guidance and obeying them (or in another way, giving them what they need, in the case of serving the poor). However, what type of service are we supposed to render to the Theotokos or the rest of the saints? Is this done merely by imitating their obedience to her Son?

Yes, imitate the Theotokos.  We respect her for her humility, her obedience, her readiness, her prayerfulness, her love towards God and the cause of salvation to mankind, her undying support to the Lord even in the midst of the hostility against Christ in His suffering and crucifixion, her motherhood, her bearing God (physically and spiritually), and her service and prayers for the human race.

So this is all that slavery and servanthood mean in this context? Imitation? I suppose I can buy that.

Yes.  Take it in this form that to imitate the saint in her holiness is as if obeying her commands to be righteous before God.  Every church building that is named after a saint dedicates their service in imitating that particular kind of holiness of that saint.  When reading the New Testament, whatever command St. Paul, St. Peter, St. Jude gives us, and we obey, we serve them as well.  We serve Christ therefore through the imitation and obedience of His saints and the Church.

Apparently this was not a Catholic versus Orthodox issue after all.  I did not think it was.


If anyone made it so, they're crossing the line, and I would really question that person's Romophobia.

It started out as a Catholic vs Orthodox issue, and I'll be the first to admit that.
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« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2010, 04:14:01 PM »

If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.
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So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
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« Reply #48 on: December 25, 2010, 04:22:13 PM »



The Theotokos Being the Bride Of God Kind of throws Me ...
I've Never Heard this Ever....
Sounds like something the Latins like to say about her, being Spouse of the Holy Spirit..... Grin


If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 04:27:55 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2010, 07:38:16 PM »



The Theotokos Being the Bride Of God Kind of throws Me ...
I've Never Heard this Ever....
Sounds like something the Latins like to say about her, being Spouse of the Holy Spirit..... Grin


If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.

From the Supplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos:
Quote from: from Ode III
I pray thee, O Virgin, to dispel the tumult of my soul and the storm of my grief; for thou, O Bride of God, hast given birth to Christ, the Prince of Peace, O only immaculate one.
Quote from: from Ode IV
The turmoil of my passions, and the storm of my sins do thou bestill, thou who gavest birth to the Lord and Pilot, O thou Bride of God.
Quote from: from Ode V
Dispel the darkness of my sins, O Bride of God, by the radiance of thy splendor, for thou didst bear the Light Divine and Pre-eternal.

From the Lamentations for the Dormition of the Theotokos:
Quote from: verse 9, first stasis
Now the Bridegroom calls you, / to rejoice, Bride of God. / in a manner both divine and most beautiful / in the Bridal Chamber, holy and divine.
Quote from: verse 8, second stasis
Virgin Bride of God, / who did not descend to us from Heaven, / by her giving birth unto heaven’s King / from this world unto the heavens now ascends
Quote from: verse 19
Virgin Bride of God! / When you enter into heaven’s kingdom, / Grant that you remember the faithful here / who now honor your dormition with our hymns.

From Little Vespers for the Entry of the Theotokos:
Quote
Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.
cf. Psalm 44:
Quote from: Psalm 44(45):13-15 (KJV)
The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. [14] She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. [15] With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
From Great Vespers for the same feast:
Quote
After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.
And from Matins:
Quote
Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.
Quote
O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

From the Akathist canon:
Quote from: from Ode I
Rejoice, Virgin Bride of God, restoration of Adam and death of hell.  Rejoice, all-immaculate one, palace of the King of all.  Rejoice, fiery throne of the Almighty.
Quote from: from Ode III
Rejoice, only door through which the Word alone hath passed.  By thy birthgiving, O Lady, thou hast broken the bars and gates of hell.  Rejoice, Bride of God, divine entry of the saved.
Quote
Quote from: from Ode V
Rejoice, most immaculate one, who gavest birth to the Way of life, and who savedst the world from the flood of sin.  Rejoice, Bride of God, tidings fearful to tell and hear.  Rejoice, dwelling-place of the Master of all creation.
Quote from: from Ode VII
Rejoice, Bride of God, who gavest birth to the Healer of all; mystical staff, that didst blossom with the unfading Flower.  Rejoice, O Lady, through whom we are filled with joy and inherit life.

Just a few of many, many examples.
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1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
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« Reply #50 on: December 25, 2010, 07:57:08 PM »

Very Nice Flowery Language..Now where does Holy Orthodoxy say explicitly to whom she's a bride too ..remember we Have One God the Most Holy Trinity....Father, Son and Most Holy Spirit...Or is this considered one of the Many Mysteries we can't give a answer to.....





The Theotokos Being the Bride Of God Kind of throws Me ...
I've Never Heard this Ever....
Sounds like something the Latins like to say about her, being Spouse of the Holy Spirit..... Grin


If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.

From the Supplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos:
Quote from: from Ode III
I pray thee, O Virgin, to dispel the tumult of my soul and the storm of my grief; for thou, O Bride of God, hast given birth to Christ, the Prince of Peace, O only immaculate one.
Quote from: from Ode IV
The turmoil of my passions, and the storm of my sins do thou bestill, thou who gavest birth to the Lord and Pilot, O thou Bride of God.
Quote from: from Ode V
Dispel the darkness of my sins, O Bride of God, by the radiance of thy splendor, for thou didst bear the Light Divine and Pre-eternal.

From the Lamentations for the Dormition of the Theotokos:
Quote from: verse 9, first stasis
Now the Bridegroom calls you, / to rejoice, Bride of God. / in a manner both divine and most beautiful / in the Bridal Chamber, holy and divine.
Quote from: verse 8, second stasis
Virgin Bride of God, / who did not descend to us from Heaven, / by her giving birth unto heaven’s King / from this world unto the heavens now ascends
Quote from: verse 19
Virgin Bride of God! / When you enter into heaven’s kingdom, / Grant that you remember the faithful here / who now honor your dormition with our hymns.

From Little Vespers for the Entry of the Theotokos:
Quote
Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.
cf. Psalm 44:
Quote from: Psalm 44(45):13-15 (KJV)
The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. [14] She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. [15] With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
From Great Vespers for the same feast:
Quote
After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.
And from Matins:
Quote
Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.
Quote
O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

From the Akathist canon:
Quote from: from Ode I
Rejoice, Virgin Bride of God, restoration of Adam and death of hell.  Rejoice, all-immaculate one, palace of the King of all.  Rejoice, fiery throne of the Almighty.
Quote from: from Ode III
Rejoice, only door through which the Word alone hath passed.  By thy birthgiving, O Lady, thou hast broken the bars and gates of hell.  Rejoice, Bride of God, divine entry of the saved.
Quote
Quote from: from Ode V
Rejoice, most immaculate one, who gavest birth to the Way of life, and who savedst the world from the flood of sin.  Rejoice, Bride of God, tidings fearful to tell and hear.  Rejoice, dwelling-place of the Master of all creation.
Quote from: from Ode VII
Rejoice, Bride of God, who gavest birth to the Healer of all; mystical staff, that didst blossom with the unfading Flower.  Rejoice, O Lady, through whom we are filled with joy and inherit life.

Just a few of many, many examples.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 08:31:20 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2010, 08:05:40 PM »



Very Nice Flowery Language..Now where does Holy Orthodox say explicitly to whom she's a bride too ..remember we Have One God the Most Holy Trinity....Father, Son and Most Holy Spirit...





The Theotokos Being the Bride Of God Kind of throws Me ...
I've Never Heard this Ever....
Sounds like something the Latins like to say about her, being Spouse of the Holy Spirit..... Grin


If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.

From the Supplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos:
Quote from: from Ode III
I pray thee, O Virgin, to dispel the tumult of my soul and the storm of my grief; for thou, O Bride of God, hast given birth to Christ, the Prince of Peace, O only immaculate one.
Quote from: from Ode IV
The turmoil of my passions, and the storm of my sins do thou bestill, thou who gavest birth to the Lord and Pilot, O thou Bride of God.
Quote from: from Ode V
Dispel the darkness of my sins, O Bride of God, by the radiance of thy splendor, for thou didst bear the Light Divine and Pre-eternal.

From the Lamentations for the Dormition of the Theotokos:
Quote from: verse 9, first stasis
Now the Bridegroom calls you, / to rejoice, Bride of God. / in a manner both divine and most beautiful / in the Bridal Chamber, holy and divine.
Quote from: verse 8, second stasis
Virgin Bride of God, / who did not descend to us from Heaven, / by her giving birth unto heaven’s King / from this world unto the heavens now ascends
Quote from: verse 19
Virgin Bride of God! / When you enter into heaven’s kingdom, / Grant that you remember the faithful here / who now honor your dormition with our hymns.

From Little Vespers for the Entry of the Theotokos:
Quote
Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.
cf. Psalm 44:
Quote from: Psalm 44(45):13-15 (KJV)
The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. [14] She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. [15] With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
From Great Vespers for the same feast:
Quote
After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.
And from Matins:
Quote
Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.
Quote
O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

From the Akathist canon:
Quote from: from Ode I
Rejoice, Virgin Bride of God, restoration of Adam and death of hell.  Rejoice, all-immaculate one, palace of the King of all.  Rejoice, fiery throne of the Almighty.
Quote from: from Ode III
Rejoice, only door through which the Word alone hath passed.  By thy birthgiving, O Lady, thou hast broken the bars and gates of hell.  Rejoice, Bride of God, divine entry of the saved.
Quote
Quote from: from Ode V
Rejoice, most immaculate one, who gavest birth to the Way of life, and who savedst the world from the flood of sin.  Rejoice, Bride of God, tidings fearful to tell and hear.  Rejoice, dwelling-place of the Master of all creation.
Quote from: from Ode VII
Rejoice, Bride of God, who gavest birth to the Healer of all; mystical staff, that didst blossom with the unfading Flower.  Rejoice, O Lady, through whom we are filled with joy and inherit life.

Just a few of many, many examples.
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« Reply #52 on: December 25, 2010, 08:11:39 PM »


 Grin Grin Grin Grin







Very Nice Flowery Language..Now where does Holy Orthodox say explicitly to whom she's a bride too ..remember we Have One God the Most Holy Trinity....Father, Son and Most Holy Spirit...





The Theotokos Being the Bride Of God Kind of throws Me ...
I've Never Heard this Ever....
Sounds like something the Latins like to say about her, being Spouse of the Holy Spirit..... Grin


If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.

From the Supplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos:
Quote from: from Ode III
I pray thee, O Virgin, to dispel the tumult of my soul and the storm of my grief; for thou, O Bride of God, hast given birth to Christ, the Prince of Peace, O only immaculate one.
Quote from: from Ode IV
The turmoil of my passions, and the storm of my sins do thou bestill, thou who gavest birth to the Lord and Pilot, O thou Bride of God.
Quote from: from Ode V
Dispel the darkness of my sins, O Bride of God, by the radiance of thy splendor, for thou didst bear the Light Divine and Pre-eternal.

From the Lamentations for the Dormition of the Theotokos:
Quote from: verse 9, first stasis
Now the Bridegroom calls you, / to rejoice, Bride of God. / in a manner both divine and most beautiful / in the Bridal Chamber, holy and divine.
Quote from: verse 8, second stasis
Virgin Bride of God, / who did not descend to us from Heaven, / by her giving birth unto heaven’s King / from this world unto the heavens now ascends
Quote from: verse 19
Virgin Bride of God! / When you enter into heaven’s kingdom, / Grant that you remember the faithful here / who now honor your dormition with our hymns.

From Little Vespers for the Entry of the Theotokos:
Quote
Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.
cf. Psalm 44:
Quote from: Psalm 44(45):13-15 (KJV)
The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. [14] She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. [15] With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
From Great Vespers for the same feast:
Quote
After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.
And from Matins:
Quote
Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.
Quote
O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

From the Akathist canon:
Quote from: from Ode I
Rejoice, Virgin Bride of God, restoration of Adam and death of hell.  Rejoice, all-immaculate one, palace of the King of all.  Rejoice, fiery throne of the Almighty.
Quote from: from Ode III
Rejoice, only door through which the Word alone hath passed.  By thy birthgiving, O Lady, thou hast broken the bars and gates of hell.  Rejoice, Bride of God, divine entry of the saved.
Quote
Quote from: from Ode V
Rejoice, most immaculate one, who gavest birth to the Way of life, and who savedst the world from the flood of sin.  Rejoice, Bride of God, tidings fearful to tell and hear.  Rejoice, dwelling-place of the Master of all creation.
Quote from: from Ode VII
Rejoice, Bride of God, who gavest birth to the Healer of all; mystical staff, that didst blossom with the unfading Flower.  Rejoice, O Lady, through whom we are filled with joy and inherit life.

Just a few of many, many examples.
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« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2010, 08:34:42 PM »

You seem to think the honor we render the Theotokos with our lips is just meaningless "flowery language", and that you are not actually bound to honor her with your heart. We do not honor the Theotokos out of formality; we do it because she deserves it. In her liturgical services, the Church proclaims the truth of Christ. We do not worship God with "vain repetitions" or so-called flowery language. My post above does not contain examples of flowery language, it contains examples of solemn truth proclaimed in the Spirit by the Church.

In short, the liturgical tradition of the Church is accurate, authoritative, and cannot be dismissed as "flowery language".

As to "spouse of the Holy Spirit", AFAIK that is a specifically RC term. I don't recall having heard it used in an Orthodox Church.

But "Bride of God" is definitely true and definitely part of our liturgical tradition and prayer life.

Even if "Bride of God" weren't part of our tradition (which it clearly, undeniably is), the point is still the same when you consider Mary as the "Mother of God". As God's Mother she is our Mother, Queen, and Mistress/Lady (Slavonic владичица).

Quote from: The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God, by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco
THE ORTHODOX CHURCH teaches about the Mother of God that which Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture have informed concerning Her, and daily it glorifies Her in its temples, asking Her help and defense. Knowing that She is pleased only by those praises which correspond to Her actual glory, the Holy Fathers and hymn-writers have entreated Her and Her Son to teach them how to hymn Her. “Set a rampart about my mind, 0 my Christ, for I make bold to sing the praise of Thy pure Mother” (Ikos of the Dormition). “The Church teaches that Christ was truly born of Mary Ever-Virgin” (St. Epiphanius, “True Word Concerning the Faith”). “It is essential for us to confess that the holy Ever-Virgin Mary is actually Theotokos (Birth-giver of God), so as not to fall into blasphemy. For those who deny that the Holy Virgin is actually Theotokos are no longer believers, but disciples of the Pharisees and Sadducees” (St. Ephraim the Syrian, “To John the Monk”).
...
There is no intellect or words to express the greatness of Her Who was born in the sinful human race but became “more honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim.”“Seeing the grace of the secret mysteries of God made manifest and clearly fulfilled in the Virgin, I rejoice; and I know not how to understand the strange and secret manner whereby the Undefiled has been revealed as alone chosen above all creation, visible and spiritual. Therefore, wishing to praise Her, I am struck dumb with amazement in both mind and speech. Yet still I dare to proclaim and magnify Her: She is indeed the heavenly Tabernacle” (Ikos of the Entry into the Temple). “Every tongue is at a loss to praise Thee as is due; even a spirit from the world above is filled with dizziness, when it seeks to sing Thy praises, 0 Theotokos. But since Thou art good, accept our faith. Thou knowest well our love inspired by God, for Thou art the Protector of Christians, and we magnify Thee” (Irmos of the 9th Canticle, Service of the Theophany).
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 08:57:18 PM by JLatimer » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2010, 09:07:01 PM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.
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« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2010, 09:22:33 PM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

Now Your explanation i  agree with ......It makes more sense and it's a mystery to a point..... laugh
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« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2010, 11:36:30 PM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

well said...
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« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2010, 11:54:07 PM »

I just realized I said "bridge" in areas where is should be "bride," but I'm glad people got the message :-D
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« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2010, 12:33:25 AM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

As to "bride", I would tend to agree with you. As to "mother"...

There are many theoforoi, but only one Theotokos.
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« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2010, 12:40:32 AM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

As to "bride", I would tend to agree with you. As to "mother"...

There are many theoforoi, but only one Theotokos.

There are beholders of God, there are bearers of God, and there are even mothers, brothers, and sisters of Christ (Mark 3:35).  The Theotokos is the most perfect one of them, so she holds a unique place as truly the one who gave birth to God the Logos Incarnate.
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« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2010, 01:59:37 AM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

As to "bride", I would tend to agree with you. As to "mother"...

There are many theoforoi, but only one Theotokos.

There are beholders of God, there are bearers of God, and there are even mothers, brothers, and sisters of Christ (Mark 3:35).  The Theotokos is the most perfect one of them, so she holds a unique place as truly the one who gave birth to God the Logos Incarnate.

Agreed.
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« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2011, 09:55:21 PM »

I would be rather concerned if we were to insist on limiting the manner in which the Theotokos can guide us to simply be as a model to imitate.

How else can we 'serve' her, then?

By obeying her commands (John 2:5).

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« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2011, 09:59:55 PM »

Now where does Holy Orthodoxy say explicitly to whom she's a bride to

Did you not read the excerpts that were posted? They explicitly say she's a bride to God.
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« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2011, 10:06:25 PM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

As to "bride", I would tend to agree with you. As to "mother"...

There are many theoforoi, but only one Theotokos.

The problem here is that there are other forms of motherhood that would not be qualified by Theotokos, which explicitly refers to physically giving birth.
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« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2011, 10:12:41 PM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

As to "bride", I would tend to agree with you. As to "mother"...

There are many theoforoi, but only one Theotokos.

The problem here is that there are other forms of motherhood that would not be qualified by Theotokos, which explicitly refers to physically giving birth.

Agreed. I meant mother in the physical, biological sense; but of course,
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« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2011, 10:32:43 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield
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« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2011, 10:43:05 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2011, 10:47:26 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin

Are you sure your latin slip isn't showing....Sound very Latin ,or what they say... Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2011, 10:53:18 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin

Are you sure your latin slip isn't showing....Sound very Latin ,or what they say... Grin Grin Grin Grin

Whatever.  The simple fact is that you're engaging in heresy and I suggest you ask the saintly Fr. Ambrose to guide you out of the mouth of Hell where you are sure to end up if you continue to deny that the Theotokos is the Bride of God as per traditional Orthodoxy as quoted in the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, as already noted. police
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« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2011, 10:54:51 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin

Are you sure your latin slip isn't showing....Sound very Latin ,or what they say... Grin Grin Grin Grin

Whatever.  The simple fact is that you're engaging in heresy and I suggest you ask the saintly Fr. Ambrose to guide you out of the mouth of Hell where you are sure to end up if you continue to deny that the Theotokos is the Bride of God as per traditional Orthodoxy as quoted in the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, as already noted. police

Father Ambrose bailing him out of heresy seems to becoming the pattern of these threads now.
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« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2011, 11:03:10 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin

Are you sure your latin slip isn't showing....Sound very Latin ,or what they say... Grin Grin Grin Grin

Whatever.  The simple fact is that you're engaging in heresy and I suggest you ask the saintly Fr. Ambrose to guide you out of the mouth of Hell where you are sure to end up if you continue to deny that the Theotokos is the Bride of God as per traditional Orthodoxy as quoted in the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, as already noted. police

So if we don't refer to the Theotokos as the Bride of God we are going to hell? Sounds a bit extreme... Shocked
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« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2011, 11:05:41 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin

Are you sure your latin slip isn't showing....Sound very Latin ,or what they say... Grin Grin Grin Grin

Whatever.  The simple fact is that you're engaging in heresy and I suggest you ask the saintly Fr. Ambrose to guide you out of the mouth of Hell where you are sure to end up if you continue to deny that the Theotokos is the Bride of God as per traditional Orthodoxy as quoted in the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, as already noted. police

So if we don't refer to the Theotokos as the Bride of God we are going to hell? Sounds a bit extreme... Shocked

According to traditional Orthodoxy...as preached in the Serbian church...if you are a heretic, you won't go to heaven...so say the Holy Serbian ORthodox saints.... Grin Grin
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« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2011, 11:41:05 AM »

Can we please return to the OP and refrain from discussing the nature of the Immaculate Conception (in a thread that only has a tangential relationship to that Roman Catholic dogma).  There is a thread (dozens, actually) where the distinction of ancestral and original sin/IC is discussed.  Here is the most recent

The same goes for the discussion of the personhood of Christ and how it relates to the the title of Theotokos for Mary in regards to the ACOE and Orthodox (and Roman Catholic) Christianity.

The discussions have been split off and can be found at the linked threads above.  The next person who posts in this thread on anything other than the topic of servitude v. slavery to the Theotokos is getting an official warning.

So speaketh the Librarian who needs things to remain organized.  laugh police
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« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2011, 12:36:27 PM »

Thank you!
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« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2011, 01:51:08 PM »

I've never Heard  that one can lose ones salvation over this .....God has Chosen Mary as his Handmaiden servant to bare His Only Begotten ,she said Yes thy will be done.....Scripture Doesn't mention anything about  betrothed,  other than to St Joseph ... Being Bride Unwedded or wedded to God , shall  remain a mystery...And i Can Go with that.... laugh
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« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2011, 03:44:06 PM »

I've never Heard  that one can lose ones salvation over this .....God has Chosen Mary as his Handmaiden servant to bare His Only Begotten ,she said Yes thy will be done.....Scripture Doesn't mention anything about  betrothed,  other than to St Joseph ... Being Bride Unwedded or wedded to God , shall  remain a mystery...And i Can Go with that.... laugh
Scripture doesn't mention praying to Mary either. So what is your point?
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« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2011, 05:42:53 PM »

Actually scripture does say something on this topic : that WE are the bride of Christ (not somebody else):



Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

-Ephesians 5:23

see also Revelation 21:9



 and...


But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
-Galatians 1:8




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« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2011, 07:27:51 PM »

Wasn't I discussing the nature of Original Sin vis a vis Mary in this thread? Perhaps I've gotten myself lost.
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« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2011, 12:40:37 AM »

Wasn't I discussing the nature of Original Sin vis a vis Mary in this thread? Perhaps I've gotten myself lost.

The thread was split. See Shultz post above. Most likely your discussion is somewhere in there. Original sin doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand.
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« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2011, 12:42:55 AM »

Actually scripture does say something on this topic : that WE are the bride of Christ (not somebody else):



Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

-Ephesians 5:23

see also Revelation 21:9



 and...


But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
-Galatians 1:8






Yes, we are the bride of Christ collectively. I don't think the Church says that Mary is the bride of Christ exclusively, but the bride of God in general (and often it qualifies her as the unwedded bride of God).

I don't calling her this is a dogmatic statement in any way, just a name out of affection, if you will.
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« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2011, 01:36:55 AM »

Wasn't I discussing the nature of Original Sin vis a vis Mary in this thread? Perhaps I've gotten myself lost.

The thread was split. See Shultz post above. Most likely your discussion is somewhere in there. Original sin doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand.

Yeah, I just saw a few posts related to original sin in the thread that Schultz linked to.
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« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2011, 04:59:13 PM »

Quote
I don't calling her this is a dogmatic statement in any way, just a name out of affection, if you will.

Again, the Church's hymnography is by it's very nature dogmatic, not "affectionate" or "flowery". When was the last time you heard a reader say, 'now and ever... the affectionate Theotokion in the 5th tone", or "now and ever... the flowery Theotokion in the 6th tone". When have you heard the deacon say, 'The Theotokos and Mother of the Light (and I mean those terms affectionately) let us say nice things about in flowery language and song because we like her'?

DOGMATIC Theotokion in the first tone:
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A virgin festival today, my brethren! Let creation leap for joy, let humanity dance, for the holy Mother of God has called us together, the unsullied treasure of virginity, the rational Paradise of the second Adam, the workshop of the union of the two natures, the festival of the saving transaction, the bridal chamber in which the Word wedded the flesh, the truly light cloud which carried with a body the One who rides upon the Cherubim. At her intercessions, Christ God, save our souls.

If she is the very bridal chamber in which every Christian is wedded to the Lord, how is she not also in the highest degree Bride of God?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 05:00:34 PM by JLatimer » Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
Tags: Theotokos 
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