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Author Topic: Response to a Member's New Avatar  (Read 3734 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tamara
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« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2010, 10:37:09 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.

Interesting. If the Orthodox Church allowed sexual activity outside of marriage then these priests could easily be named without fear of being deposed. But since there needs to be secrecy in regard to the naming of these priests we must then conclude that their bishops would have to depose them for teaching that sexual activity outside of marriage is okay.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that there are some authorities in "the Orthodox Church" who believe the contrary.

More than just a few my friend. Try the majority of the Orthodox Church. Only the renegades hold your opinion. That is the reason for secrecy.
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« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2010, 10:37:25 PM »

Ialmisry, I am not avoiding that post for the sake of entirely avoiding, but simply because I don't have the time to read it this very moment. I'll probably get to it sometime in the next 24 hours.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2010, 10:37:46 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 10:38:13 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2010, 10:37:55 PM »

Quote
I didn't say many. It's more like a few.

The word you used was numerous. Please choose your words with care.

I don't see a clear distinction.
Not the only place where your vision is failing you.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2010, 10:39:08 PM »

Ialmisry, I am not avoiding that post for the sake of entirely avoiding, but simply because I don't have the time to read it this very moment. I'll probably get to it sometime in the next 24 hours.

Take your time, you don't answer to me.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2010, 10:40:22 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.

Interesting. If the Orthodox Church allowed sexual activity outside of marriage then these priests could easily be named without fear of being deposed. But since there needs to be secrecy in regard to the naming of these priests we must then conclude that their bishops would have to depose them for teaching that sexual activity outside of marriage is okay.
DON"T APPLY LOGIC.
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« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2010, 10:40:47 PM »


Umm... A few?

Yes. Out of the probably dozens or hundreds of priests who probably hold this view, I explicitly know a few of them. What's your point?


Like I said, your and my opinions are null and void. It doesn't matter what you or I think if it contradicts Church doctrine.

http://www.oca.org/DOCmarriage.asp?SID=12&ID=26
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101
http://www.antiochian.org/homosexuality

That is not the Church's doctrine, that is the OCA's, GOAA's, and AOCANA's doctrine. They are parts of the Church, not the Church itself.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2010, 10:43:12 PM »

LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...
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« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2010, 10:43:24 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.

Interesting. If the Orthodox Church allowed sexual activity outside of marriage then these priests could easily be named without fear of being deposed. But since there needs to be secrecy in regard to the naming of these priests we must then conclude that their bishops would have to depose them for teaching that sexual activity outside of marriage is okay.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that there are some authorities in "the Orthodox Church" who believe the contrary.

More than just a few my friend. Try the majority of the Orthodox Church. Only the renegades hold your opinion. That is the reason for secrecy.

I don't particularly care if the majority of the members of "the Orthodox Church" (still wondering what you people are meaning by that) believe this. "The majority" isn't always a proper representation of the actual Church. History has clearly proven that one.
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« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2010, 10:44:34 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...

No, I'm not. That's why I express my opinions and try to perceive what the Church teaches. You all seem convinced that the Church clearly teaches something. I see it as simply a modern phenomenon that has swept the majority of believers and will hopefully fade away soon.
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« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2010, 10:45:07 PM »

Quote
I didn't say many. It's more like a few.

The word you used was numerous. Please choose your words with care.

I don't see a clear distinction.
Not the only place where your vision is failing you.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2010, 10:45:28 PM »

Ialmisry, I am not avoiding that post for the sake of entirely avoiding, but simply because I don't have the time to read it this very moment. I'll probably get to it sometime in the next 24 hours.

Take your time, you don't answer to me.

I'm aware. But you deserve a proper response.
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« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2010, 10:46:25 PM »


LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...

Wait, you actually believe that the OCA is the Church? Do you have no conception of the ecumenical Church?
 I am just randomly picking this post to be the one that gets you a warning for that avatar. It was provocative and I don't appreciate this forum being used as an advertisement for a group that seeks to change Orthodox teachings.

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2010, 10:46:40 PM »

I do wonder about the provocative nature of such an avatar. Is it really necessary to be a source of temptation in this manner,knowing full and well the traditional stance of the Church on this issue? I mean, would it be in good taste for an Orthodox Christian living in fornication or any other sin to flaunt his/her activities before all? In a spirit of shame and concern for others' souls, shouldn't we quietly be trying to overcome sin?  Maybe celibacy is deeply painful for most of us, but we don't have the choice to fornicate, but must rather try to somehow accept the fearsome,anguishing cross we must bear.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2010, 10:50:26 PM »


LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...

Wait, you actually believe that the OCA is the Church? Do you have no conception of the ecumenical Church?
Sure.  The OCA condemns homosexual acts because the Ecumenical Church condemns homosexual acts (and adultery, etc.).  That is part of the reason why the OCA and the Ecumenical Church are one.
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« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2010, 10:51:12 PM »

It's clear he wants the attention and he's getting it... Sadly... But personally, OCNet needs to take a stronger stance on issues such as this. People shouldn't come here seeking answers, but they do. And it's sad if they come here and see the same drivel that exists in much of the rest of society. Hopefully they will realize that the Orthodox Church isn't a slave to secularism and the world like other faiths...
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ialmisry
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« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2010, 10:51:35 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...

No, I'm not. That's why I express my opinions and try to perceive what the Church teaches. You all seem convinced that the Church clearly teaches something. I see it as simply a modern phenomenon that has swept the majority of believers and will hopefully fade away soon.
The quote I've posted is 16 centuries old, and as true as when St. John spoke them.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2010, 10:52:30 PM »


LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...

Wait, you actually believe that the OCA is the Church? Do you have no conception of the ecumenical Church?
Sure.  The OCA condemns homosexual acts because the Ecumenical Church condemns homosexual acts (and adultery, etc.).  That is part of the reason why the OCA and the Ecumenical Church are one.

So John Chrysostom is the infallible and supreme mouthpiece of the Ecumenical Church?

Not that I'm admitting that he actually sides with you (I will judge that when I get around to reading that), but hypothetically assuming that you are right.
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« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2010, 10:52:50 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...

No, I'm not. That's why I express my opinions and try to perceive what the Church teaches. You all seem convinced that the Church clearly teaches something. I see it as simply a modern phenomenon that has swept the majority of believers and will hopefully fade away soon.
Matthew 16:18
"I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

If the gates of Hades shall not prevail against the Church, homosexual advocating will also not prevail against Her teachings.  
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ialmisry
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« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2010, 10:55:00 PM »


Umm... A few?

Yes. Out of the probably dozens or hundreds of priests who probably hold this view, I explicitly know a few of them. What's your point?


Like I said, your and my opinions are null and void. It doesn't matter what you or I think if it contradicts Church doctrine.

http://www.oca.org/DOCmarriage.asp?SID=12&ID=26
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101
http://www.antiochian.org/homosexuality

That is not the Church's doctrine, that is the OCA's, GOAA's, and AOCANA's doctrine. They are parts of the Church, not the Church itself.
The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole. [Episcopatus unus est, cuius a singulis in solidum pars tenetur: the quote has become a maxim]. 
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2010, 10:55:45 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...

No, I'm not. That's why I express my opinions and try to perceive what the Church teaches. You all seem convinced that the Church clearly teaches something. I see it as simply a modern phenomenon that has swept the majority of believers and will hopefully fade away soon.
Matthew 16:18
"I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

If the gates of Hades shall not prevail against the Church, homosexual advocating will also not prevail against Her teachings.  
not matter how much it tries to enter by the back gate (sorry, couldn't resist).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 10:56:04 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2010, 10:57:02 PM »


LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...

Wait, you actually believe that the OCA is the Church? Do you have no conception of the ecumenical Church?
Sure.  The OCA condemns homosexual acts because the Ecumenical Church condemns homosexual acts (and adultery, etc.).  That is part of the reason why the OCA and the Ecumenical Church are one.

So John Chrysostom is the infallible and supreme mouthpiece of the Ecumenical Church?

Not that I'm admitting that he actually sides with you (I will judge that when I get around to reading that), but hypothetically assuming that you are right.
He's a lead singer in the Church's chorus.  And we are all singing the same note.
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2010, 10:58:45 PM »


Is it really necessary to be a source of temptation in this manner,knowing full and well the traditional stance of the Church on this issue?

You assume too much about my knowledge.


I mean, would it be in good taste for an Orthodox Christian living in fornication or any other sin to flaunt his/her activities before all?

I don't believe that heterosexuals in long-term monogamous relationships intended eventually for marriage (particularly in the engagement stage) are committing sin by having sex. I don't think that that is what was meant by fornication.

But what makes you speak of "flaunting activities"? So far I have not at all discussed my sexual lifestyle.
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« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2010, 11:00:02 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...

No, I'm not. That's why I express my opinions and try to perceive what the Church teaches. You all seem convinced that the Church clearly teaches something. I see it as simply a modern phenomenon that has swept the majority of believers and will hopefully fade away soon.
Matthew 16:18
"I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

If the gates of Hades shall not prevail against the Church, homosexual advocating will also not prevail against Her teachings.  

Are you hearing what I'm saying? I don't see an inherent condemnation of homosexual acts as the Church's teaching, and thus if homosexual advocating prevailed, I don't think it would be the gates of hell prevailing against the Church.
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« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2010, 11:06:42 PM »


LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...

The identity of the Church is never really clear. It's up to individuals to determine who they think the Church is. Only after that can they submit to the teachings of that body. I don't think you and I have terribly different conceptions of who the Church is. But for some reason you think the OCA is an absolute representative of the Ecumenical Church and I don't.
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« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2010, 11:08:40 PM »

Quote
I don't believe that heterosexuals in long-term monogamous relationships intended eventually for marriage (particularly in the engagement stage) are committing sin by having sex. I don't think that that is what was meant by fornication.

I think the bible makes it quite plain that intimacy is to be reserved for after marriage for the Christian. Why must we ape the secular world's ways? We are called apart to a different standard. Why can't people be grateful for the fact that someone loves them and wants to marry them and, out of gratitude and purity, save themselves for after the church marriage? I don't understand what is so hard about this.
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« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2010, 11:08:53 PM »

We don't need another thread on homosexuality on this forum. The commonly understood teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church is that homosexual relations are sinful. We've allowed open discussion on the topic for some time, because we are aware of discussion in the Orthodox world concerning this issue, but frankly, I am not personally interested in allowing the forum to be a platform for constant questioning of commonly-accepted Orthodox moral teachings.

I don't intend to close the other threads that already exist, but this one is just provocative. Enough is enough.

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2010, 11:13:58 PM »

It's clear he wants the attention and he's getting it... Sadly... But personally, OCNet needs to take a stronger stance on issues such as this.

Hope you are satisfied. Next time report your concerns to the moderators or bring it to the attention of Fr Chris directly, please.

Quote
People shouldn't come here seeking answers, but they do.

Sure they should. I totally disagree with your reasoning. People always say "talk to your priest for authoritative answers."  1: there are several priests on this forum 2: Priests don't always represent Orthodox teachings, as we can tell from the reports of some who are saying that priests teach them that certain things are not sins.

Fr Anastasios
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 11:14:40 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
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« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2010, 11:16:40 PM »

I was wondering about his avatar
The following quote by Tamara is transferred from "Communion in the Catholic Church Thread" because it is very relevant to answering the above statement.

"I would take your question to a different Orthodox forum. This forum is set-up as a free-for-all. You will get opinions from all sorts of people with various political views who are not Orthodox clergy or even Orthodox Christians. Some folks who post on this forum are atheist who were once Orthodox Christians and some believe people can engage in homosexual acts and still be Orthodox Christians in good standing. In fact, I think all inquirers or catechumens would do well to go to other sites for Orthodox counsel, information or advice."




I agree, and to get the REAL stance of the Orthodox Church, talk to a real Priest, or even contact a seminary, don't come here for it... Even an official Orthodox-affiliated site such as the OCA or GOA is sufficient. But not a forum or blog...

Totally disagree, for the reasons stated in my post above, but I won't belabor the point, since the thread is locked and you can't respond to me. Contact me via private message if you'd like.

Fr Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
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