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Deacon Lance
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« on: January 12, 2010, 07:06:32 PM »

CONTEXT NOTE:  The following discussion split off from Communion in the Catholic Church.  -PtA



Who am I to judge whether or not the Roman Catholics have grace in their sacraments.

I don't think it's outrageous to affirm them as not having grace. Plenty of EO and OO do it, and usually on pretty reasonable bases. I'm just so strongly against the Roman dogmatic tradition that the other extreme, of affirming grace in their ordinances, is shocking.

Not quite as shocking as seeing someone pontificate on the matter who lists himself as an "inquirer" and advertises Axios, a group that proclaims homosexual acts are not sins.
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2010, 07:14:08 PM »

I was wondering about his avatar
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 07:24:16 PM »

Not quite as shocking as seeing someone pontificate on the matter who lists himself as an "inquirer" and advertises Axios, a group that proclaims homosexual acts are not sins.

He's baptized Eastern Orthodox, and he understands the Christological controversies of the 5th century more than I ever will.  He's a smart cookie.  I might not agree about the morality of homosexuality, but the guy is very smart, so I'm sure if you wanted to have a rational discussion with him about his sexual orientation he just might have a well thought out position.
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 07:39:04 PM »

Not quite as shocking as seeing someone pontificate on the matter who lists himself as an "inquirer" and advertises Axios, a group that proclaims homosexual acts are not sins.

He's baptized Eastern Orthodox, and he understands the Christological controversies of the 5th century more than I ever will.  He's a smart cookie.  I might not agree about the morality of homosexuality, but the guy is very smart, so I'm sure if you wanted to have a rational discussion with him about his sexual orientation he just might have a well thought out position.

The point I was making was he states he is shocked an EO/OO could believe that Catholic sacraments have grace.  I find it more shocking that someone who is espousing traditionalist EO/OO views is advertising a group opposed to traditional EO/OO morality. 
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 07:41:21 PM »

Alveus, being "very smart" and having "well thought-out positions" don't matter a hill of beans if distortions of the faith are being espoused.
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 08:18:20 PM »


Who am I to judge whether or not the Roman Catholics have grace in their sacraments.

I don't think it's outrageous to affirm them as not having grace. Plenty of EO and OO do it, and usually on pretty reasonable bases. I'm just so strongly against the Roman dogmatic tradition that the other extreme, of affirming grace in their ordinances, is shocking.

Not quite as shocking as seeing someone pontificate on the matter who lists himself as an "inquirer" and advertises Axios, a group that proclaims homosexual acts are not sins.

Why is that shocking?
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 08:19:42 PM »

Not quite as shocking as seeing someone pontificate on the matter who lists himself as an "inquirer" and advertises Axios, a group that proclaims homosexual acts are not sins.

He's baptized Eastern Orthodox, and he understands the Christological controversies of the 5th century more than I ever will.  He's a smart cookie.  I might not agree about the morality of homosexuality, but the guy is very smart, so I'm sure if you wanted to have a rational discussion with him about his sexual orientation he just might have a well thought out position.

The point I was making was he states he is shocked an EO/OO could believe that Catholic sacraments have grace.  I find it more shocking that someone who is espousing traditionalist EO/OO views is advertising a group opposed to traditional EO/OO morality. 

I wasn't aware that Axios was opposed to traditional EO/OO morality.
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 08:20:10 PM »


Alveus, being "very smart" and having "well thought-out positions" don't matter a hill of beans if distortions of the faith are being espoused.

Are you suggesting that I'm distorting the faith?
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 08:56:36 PM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,6161.msg396458/topicseen.html#msg396458
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 09:11:19 PM »

Alveus, being "very smart" and having "well thought-out positions" don't matter a hill of beans if distortions of the faith are being espoused.
Arius, Nestorius, Eutychus, Honorius, etc. were all smart and had well thought out positions indeed.  So much that they wouldn't listen to the Wisdom of the Church.
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2010, 09:13:12 PM »

Grace and Peace to all,

Well, this is turning out to be a warm welcome isn't it?  Huh
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 09:13:59 PM »

Alveus, being "very smart" and having "well thought-out positions" don't matter a hill of beans if distortions of the faith are being espoused.
Arius, Nestorius, Eutychus, Honorius, etc. were all smart and had well thought out positions indeed.  So much that they wouldn't listen to the Wisdom of the Church.

So now you're comparing me to Arius, Nestorius, and Eutyches?

(BTW, Eutyches actually wasn't that smart and his positions weren't well thought out. Arius and Nestorius, yes. Eutyches, no.)
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2010, 09:21:50 PM »

Grace and Peace to all,

Well, this is turning out to be a warm welcome isn't it?  Huh

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/mba0708l.jpg
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 09:22:18 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2010, 09:51:03 PM »

How about this not-so-clearly-thought-out position with corresponding avatar?  It could be used for posters with "eyeball" headaches on the OCnet free-for-all.
http://img1.jurko.net/fa3.gif

Edit:  Removed Sarah Silverman clip on smoking medical marijuana.
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2010, 10:00:43 PM »

I was wondering about his avatar
The following quote by Tamara is transferred from "Communion in the Catholic Church Thread" because it is very relevant to answering the above statement.

"I would take your question to a different Orthodox forum. This forum is set-up as a free-for-all. You will get opinions from all sorts of people with various political views who are not Orthodox clergy or even Orthodox Christians. Some folks who post on this forum are atheist who were once Orthodox Christians and some believe people can engage in homosexual acts and still be Orthodox Christians in good standing. In fact, I think all inquirers or catechumens would do well to go to other sites for Orthodox counsel, information or advice."
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2010, 10:09:53 PM »

I was wondering about his avatar
The following quote by Tamara is transferred from "Communion in the Catholic Church Thread" because it is very relevant to answering the above statement.

"I would take your question to a different Orthodox forum. This forum is set-up as a free-for-all. You will get opinions from all sorts of people with various political views who are not Orthodox clergy or even Orthodox Christians. Some folks who post on this forum are atheist who were once Orthodox Christians and some believe people can engage in homosexual acts and still be Orthodox Christians in good standing. In fact, I think all inquirers or catechumens would do well to go to other sites for Orthodox counsel, information or advice."


I agree, and to get the REAL stance of the Orthodox Church, talk to a real Priest, or even contact a seminary, don't come here for it... Even an official Orthodox-affiliated site such as the OCA or GOA is sufficient. But not a forum or blog...
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2010, 10:16:20 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2010, 10:19:31 PM »

I was wondering about his avatar
The following quote by Tamara is transferred from "Communion in the Catholic Church Thread" because it is very relevant to answering the above statement.

"I would take your question to a different Orthodox forum. This forum is set-up as a free-for-all. You will get opinions from all sorts of people with various political views who are not Orthodox clergy or even Orthodox Christians. Some folks who post on this forum are atheist who were once Orthodox Christians and some believe people can engage in homosexual acts and still be Orthodox Christians in good standing. In fact, I think all inquirers or catechumens would do well to go to other sites for Orthodox counsel, information or advice."


I agree, and to get the REAL stance of the Orthodox Church, talk to a real Priest, or even contact a seminary, don't come here for it... Even an official Orthodox-affiliated site such as the OCA or GOA is sufficient. But not a forum or blog...

I agree Devin, visiting an Orthodox church and meeting a priest and community is the best way to get information on Orthodoxy. But realistically, many people start out their journey looking online. We can't stop them but we can redirect them.  Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2010, 10:19:52 PM »

I agree, and to get the REAL stance of the Orthodox Church, talk to a real Priest, or even contact a seminary, don't come here for it... Even an official Orthodox-affiliated site such as the OCA or GOA is sufficient. But not a forum or blog...

I am afraid that I too agree.  Even though I am a "real priest" I know that if I lay out the Orthodox teaching I will be challenged by "who are you?" and "what authority do you have on this Forum?"   

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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2010, 10:20:24 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them. Any type of sexual activity outside of marriage is a sin in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2010, 10:21:36 PM »

Umm... deusveritasest, I hope you know that saying you know many doesn't make it so, anyone can claim anything on the internet.

As Tamara pointed out... Unless you can name them, your statement is completely empty.
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2010, 10:22:30 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2010, 10:23:08 PM »


Umm... deusveritasest, I hope you know that saying you know many doesn't make it so, anyone can claim anything on the internet.

As Tamara pointed out... Unless you can name them, your statement is completely empty.

I didn't say many. It's more like a few.

But I am not the sort to lie. I thought people would have figured that out about me by now.
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2010, 10:23:58 PM »


Any type of sexual activity outside of marriage is a sin in the Orthodox Church.

You can say that, but it doesn't make it true. Note that I am not suggesting that you are lying, rather that you are mistaken.
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2010, 10:25:26 PM »


Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Just to clarify, because ignorant people often think inherently of promiscuity when someone says "homosexual acts", I was talking about who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts in the context of long-term monogamy.
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2010, 10:25:57 PM »


Any type of sexual activity outside of marriage is a sin in the Orthodox Church.

You can say that, but it doesn't make it true.

No, that the Orthodox Church says it makes it true.

Quote
Note that I am not suggesting that you are lying, rather that you are mistaken.
She is neither on this matter.
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2010, 10:26:31 PM »


Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Just to clarify, because ignorant people often think inherently of promiscuity when someone says "homosexual acts", I was talking about who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts in the context of long-term monogamy.

Why monogamy?  Why not long term polygamy?
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2010, 10:27:26 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.
As they should with any priest they catch teaching heresy.
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2010, 10:27:58 PM »


Why monogamy?  Why not long term polygamy?

Because polygamy is recognized as being too far out of the bounds of appropriate sexuality.
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2010, 10:28:13 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.
As they should with any priest they catch teaching heresy.

Where do you get the idea that it is heresy?
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2010, 10:28:40 PM »


Why monogamy?  Why not long term polygamy?

Because polygamy is recognized as being too far out of the bounds of appropriate sexuality.
So is homosexuality.
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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2010, 10:29:17 PM »

Quote
I didn't say many. It's more like a few.

The word you used was numerous. Please choose your words with care.
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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2010, 10:29:24 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.
As they should with any priest they catch teaching heresy.

Where do you get the idea that it is heresy?
The Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2010, 10:29:56 PM »


No, that the Orthodox Church says it makes it true.

I've never seen anything of this sort. Local statements here and there. But never a full representation of the Church.
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2010, 10:31:23 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.
As they should with any priest they catch teaching heresy.

Where do you get the idea that it is heresy?
The Orthodox Church.

That's a rather vague answer. Where has "the Orthodox Church" (not sure exactly what you mean by that given the EO, OO dichotomy) stated that it is heresy to believe that those who engage in homosexual acts in the context of long-term monogamy may remain Orthodox Christians in good standing?
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2010, 10:31:51 PM »

Quote
I didn't say many. It's more like a few.

The word you used was numerous. Please choose your words with care.

I don't see a clear distinction.
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2010, 10:32:07 PM »


Why monogamy?  Why not long term polygamy?

Because polygamy is recognized as being too far out of the bounds of appropriate sexuality.
So is homosexuality.

I don't agree.
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2010, 10:32:12 PM »



Just to clarify,

...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?  Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?  

AND


For attacking mods and admins of OCnet *AGAIN* and announcing you will be going over to another forum until we do what you want. I take that as a personal offense.

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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2010, 10:32:25 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.

Interesting. If the Orthodox Church allowed sexual activity outside of marriage then these priests could easily be named without fear of being deposed. But since there needs to be secrecy in regard to the naming of these priests we must then conclude that their bishops would have to depose them for teaching that sexual activity outside of marriage is okay.
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2010, 10:33:29 PM »


Umm... deusveritasest, I hope you know that saying you know many doesn't make it so, anyone can claim anything on the internet.

As Tamara pointed out... Unless you can name them, your statement is completely empty.

I didn't say many. It's more like a few.

But I am not the sort to lie. I thought people would have figured that out about me by now.

Umm... A few? And how many Priests exist in the Orthodox Church?

Like I said, your and my opinions are null and void. It doesn't matter what you or I think if it contradicts Church doctrine.

http://www.oca.org/DOCmarriage.asp?SID=12&ID=26
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101
http://www.antiochian.org/homosexuality
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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2010, 10:33:50 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.

Interesting. If the Orthodox Church allowed sexual activity outside of marriage then these priests could easily be named without fear of being deposed. But since there needs to be secrecy in regard to the naming of these priests we must then conclude that their bishops would have to depose them for teaching that sexual activity outside of marriage is okay.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that there are some authorities in "the Orthodox Church" who believe the contrary.
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2010, 10:34:59 PM »



Just to clarify,

...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?  Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?  

AND


Offending quote removed.

Good choice Gabriel. I agree with you.
 You have been warned before about letting moderators do their job and not calling them out in public.  For agreeing with Gabriel the Celt on his public criticism of site moderation, and for applauding his choice to move to another discussion forum, you are now receiving a formal warning.  If you disagree with my decision, please feel free to appeal to Fr. George or Fr. Chris. 

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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2010, 10:35:41 PM »


No, that the Orthodox Church says it makes it true.

I've never seen anything of this sort. Local statements here and there. But never a full representation of the Church.
You're not looking.

Claiming verses that don't validate their devaluation of the family are mistranslated and philetist.  You can find plenty written on the homosexual lifestyle in Greek. It's not a translation problem.

The clobber passages are commonly mistranslated.

Quote
“For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one towards another.”

All these affections then were vile, but chiefly the mad lust after males; for the soul is more the sufferer in sins, and more dishonored, than the body in diseases. But behold how here too, as in the case of the doctrines, he deprives them of excuse, by saying of the women, that “they changed the natural use.” For no one, he means, can say that it was by being hindered of legitimate intercourse that they came to this pass, or that it was from having no means to fulfil their desire that they were driven into this monstrous insaneness. For the changing implies possession. Which also when discoursing upon the doctrines he said, “They changed the truth of God for a lie.” And with regard to the men again, he shows the same thing by saying, “Leaving the natural use of the woman.” And in a like way with those, these he also puts out of all means of defending themselves by charging them not only that they had the means of gratification, and left that which they had, and went after another, but that having dishonored that which was natural, they ran after that which was contrary to nature. But that which is contrary to nature hath in it an irksomeness and displeasingness, so that they could not fairly allege even pleasure. For genuine pleasure is that which is according to nature. But when God hath left one, then all things are turned upside down. And thus not only was their doctrine Satanical, but their life too was diabolical. Now when he was discoursing of their doctrines, he put before them the world and man’s understanding, telling them that, by the judgment afforded them by God, they might through the things which are seen, have been led as by the hand to the Creator, and then, by not willing to do so, they remained inexcusable. Here in the place of the world he sets the pleasure according to nature, which they would have enjoyed with more sense of security and greater glad-heartedness, and so have been far removed from shameful deeds. But they would not; whence they are quite out of the pale of pardon, and have done an insult to nature itself. And a yet more disgraceful thing than these is it, when even the women seek after these intercourses, who ought to have more sense of shame than men. And here too the judgment of Paul is worthy of admiration, how having fallen upon two opposite matters he accomplishes them both with all exactness. For he wished both to speak chastely and to sting the hearer. Now both these things were not in his power to do, but one hindered the other. For if you speak chastely you shall not be able to bear hard upon the hearer. But if you are minded to touch him to the quick, you are forced to lay the naked facts before him in plain terms. But his discreet and holy soul was able to do both with exactness, and by naming nature has at once given additional force to his accusation, and also used this as a sort of veil, to keep the chasteness of his description. And next, having reproached the women first, he goes on to the men also, and says, “And likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman.” Which is an evident proof of the last degree of corruptness, when both sexes are abandoned, and both he that was ordained to be the instructor of the woman, and she who was bid to become an helpmate to the man, work the deeds of enemies against one another. And reflect too how significantly he uses his words. For he does not say that they were enamoured of, and lusted after one another, but, “they burned in their lust one toward another.” You see that the whole of desire comes of an exorbitancy which endureth not to abide within its proper limits. For everything which transgresseth the laws by God appointed, lusteth after monstrous things and not those which be customary. For as many oftentimes having left the desire of food get to feed upon earth and small stones, and others being possessed by excessive thirst often long even for mire, thus these also ran into this ebullition of lawless love. But if you say, and whence came this intensity of lust? It was from the desertion of God: and whence is the desertion of God? from the lawlessness of them that left Him; “men with men working that which is unseemly.” Do not, he means, because you have heard that they burned, suppose that the evil was only in desire. For the greater part of it came of their luxuriousness, which also kindled into flame their lust. And this is why he did not say being swept along or being overtaken, an expression he uses elsewhere; but what? working. They made a business of the sin, and not only a business, but even one zealously followed up. And he called it not lust, but that which is unseemly, and that properly.  For they both dishonored nature, and trampled on the laws. And see the great confusion which fell out on both sides. For not only was the head turned downwards but the feet too were upwards, and they became enemies to themselves and to one another, bringing in a pernicious kind of strife, and one even more lawless than any civil war, and one rife in divisions, and of varied form. For they divided this into four new, and lawless kinds. Since (3 mss. whence) this war was not twofold or threefold, but even fourfold. Consider then. It was meet, that the twain should be one, I mean the woman and the man. For “the twain,” it says, “shall be one flesh.” (Gen. ii. 24.) But this the desire of intercourse effected, and united the sexes to one another. This desire the devil having taken away, and having turned the course thereof into another fashion, he thus sundered the sexes from one another, and made the one to become two parts in opposition to the law of God. For it says, “the two shall be one flesh;” but he divided the one flesh into two: here then is one war. Again, these same two parts he provoked to war both against themselves and against one another. For even women again abused women, and not men only. And the men stood against one another, and against the female sex, as happens in a battle by night. You see a second 357and third war, and a fourth and fifth; there is also another, for beside what have been mentioned they also behaved lawlessly against nature itself. For when the Devil saw that this desire it is, principally, which draws the sexes together, he was bent on cutting through the tie, so as to destroy the race, not only by their not copulating lawfully, but also by their being stirred up to war, and in sedition against one another.

“And receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.” See how he goes again to the fountain head of the evil, namely, the impiety that comes of their doctrines, and this he says is a reward of that lawlessness. For since in speaking of hell and punishment, it seemed he would not at present be credible to the ungodly and deliberate choosers of such a life, but even scorned, he shows that the punishment was in this pleasure itself. (So Plato Theæt. p. 176, 7.) But if they perceive it not, but are still pleased, be not amazed. For even they that are mad, and are afflicted with phrenzy (cf. Soph. Aj. 265–277) while doing themselves much injury and making themselves such objects of compassion, that others weep over them themselves smile and revel over what has happened. Yet we do not only for this not say that they are quit of punishment, but for this very reason are under a more grievous vengeance, in that they are unconscious of the plight they are in. For it is not the disordered but those who are sound whose votes one has to gain. Yet of old the matter seemed even to be a law, and a certain law-giver among them bade the domestic slaves neither to use unguents when dry (i.e. except in bathing) nor to keep youths, giving the free this place of honor, or rather of shamefulness. Yet they, however, did not think the thing shameful, but as being a grand privilege, and one too great for slaves, the Athenian people, the wisest of people, and Solon who is so great amongst them, permitted it to the free alone. And sundry other books of the philosophers may one see full of this disease. But we do not therefore say that the thing was made lawful, but that they who received this law were pitiable, and objects for many tears. For these are treated in the same way as women that play the whore. Or rather their plight is more miserable. For in the case of the one the intercourse, even if lawless, is yet according to nature: but this is contrary both to law and nature. For even if there were no hell, and no punishment had been threatened, this were worse than any punishment. Yet if you say “they found pleasure in it,” you tell me what adds to the vengeance. For suppose I were to see a person running naked, with his body all besmeared with mire, and yet not covering himself, but exulting in it, I should not rejoice with him, but should rather bewail that he did not even perceive that he was doing shamefully. But that I may show the atrocity in a yet clearer light, bear with me in one more example. Now if any one condemned a virgin to live in close dens (θαλομευομένην), and to have intercourse with unreasoning brutes, and then she was pleased with such intercourse, would she not for this be especially a worthy object of tears, as being unable to be freed from this misery owing to her not even perceiving the misery? It is plain surely to every one. But if that were a grievous thing, neither is this less so than that. For to be insulted by one’s own kinsmen is more piteous than to be so by strangers: these I say (5 mss. “I consider”) are even worse than murderers: since to die even is better than to live under such insolency. For the murderer dissevers the soul from the body, but this man ruins the soul with the body. And name what sin you will, none will you mention equal to this lawlessness. And if they that suffer such things perceived them, they would accept ten thousand deaths so they might not suffer this evil. For there is not, there surely is not, a more grievous evil than this insolent dealing. For if when discoursing about fornication Paul said, that “Every sin which a man doeth is without the body, but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body” (1 Cor. vi. 18); what shall we say of this madness, which is so much worse than fornication as cannot even be expressed? For I should not only say that thou hast become a woman, but that thou hast lost thy manhood, and hast neither changed into that nature nor kept that which thou haddest, but thou hast been a traitor to both of them at once, and deserving both of men and women to be driven out and stoned, as having wronged either sex. And that thou mayest learn what the real force of this is, if any one were to come and assure you that he would make you a dog instead of being a man, would you not flee from him as a plague? But, lo! thou hast not made thyself a dog out of a man, but an animal more disgraceful than this. For this is useful unto 358service, but he that hath thus given himself up is serviceable for nothing. Or again, if any one threatened to make men travail and be brought to bed, should we not be filled with indignation? But lo! now they that have run into this fury have done more grievously by themselves. For it is not the same thing to change into the nature of women, as to continue a man and yet to have become a woman; or rather neither this nor that. But if you would know the enormity of the evil from other grounds, ask on what account the lawgivers punish them that make men eunuchs, and you will see that it is absolutely for no other reason than because they mutilate nature. And yet the injustice they do is nothing to this. For there have been those that were mutilated and were in many cases useful after their mutilation. But nothing can there be more worthless than a man who has pandered himself. For not the soul only, but the body also of one who hath been so treated, is disgraced, and deserves to be driven out everywhere. How many hells shall be enough for such? But if thou scoffest at hearing of hell and believest not that fire, remember Sodom. For we have seen, surely we have seen, even in this present life, a semblance of hell. For since many would utterly disbelieve the things to come after the resurrection, hearing now of an unquenchable fire, God brings them to a right mind by things present. For such is the burning of Sodom, and that conflagration! And they know it well that have been at the place, and have seen with their eyes that scourge divinely sent, and the effect of the lightnings from above. (Jude 7.) Consider how great is that sin, to have forced hell to appear even before its time! For whereas many thought scorn of His words, by His deeds did God show them the image thereof in a certain novel way. For that rain was unwonted, for that the intercourse was contrary to nature, and it deluged the land, since lust had done so with their souls. Wherefore also the rain was the opposite of the customary rain. Now not only did it fail to stir up the womb of the earth to the production of fruits, but made it even useless for the reception of seed. For such was also the intercourse of the men, making a body of this sort more worthless than the very land of Sodom. And what is there more detestable than a man who hath pandered himself, or what more execrable? Oh, what madness! Oh, what distraction! Whence came this lust lewdly revelling and making man’s nature all that enemies could? or even worse than that, by as much as the soul is better than the body. Oh, ye that were more senseless than irrational creatures, and more shameless than dogs! for in no case does such intercourse take place with them, but nature acknowledgeth her own limits. But ye have even made our race dishonored below things irrational, by such indignities inflicted upon and by each other. Whence then were these evils born? Of luxury; of not knowing God. For so soon as any have cast out the fear of Him, all that is good straightway goes to ruin.  Now, that this may not happen, let us keep clear before our eyes the fear of God. For nothing, surely nothing, so ruins a man as to slip from this anchor, as nothing saves so much as continually looking thereto. For if by having a man before our eyes we feel more backward at doing sins, and often even through feeling abashed at servants of a better stamp we keep from doing anything amiss, consider what safety we shall enjoy by having God before our eyes! For in no case will the Devil attack us when so conditioned, in that he would be laboring without profit. But should he see us wandering abroad, and going about without a bridle, by getting a beginning in ourselves he will be able to drive us off afterwards any whither. And as it happens with thoughtless servants at market, who leave the needful services which their masters have entrusted to them, and rivet themselves at a mere haphazard to those who fall in their way, and waste out their leisure there; this also we undergo when we depart from the commandments of God. For we presently get standing on, admiring riches, and beauty of person, and the other things which we have no business with, just as those servants attend to the beggars that do jugglers’ feats, and then, arriving too late, have to be grievously beaten at home. And many pass the road set before them through following others, who are behaving in the same unseemly way. But let not us so do. For we have been sent to dispatch many affairs that are urgent. And if we leave those, and stand gaping at these useless things, all our time will be wasted in vain and to no profit, and we shall suffer the extreme of punishment. For if you 359wish yourself to be busy, you have whereat you ought to wonder, and to gape all your days, things which are no subject for laughter, but for wondering and manifold praises. As he that admires things ridiculous, will himself often be such, and even worse than he that occasioneth the laughter. And that you may not fall into this, spring away from it forthwith. For why is it, pray, that you stand gaping and fluttering at sight of riches? What do you see so wonderful, and able to fix your eyes upon them? these gold-harnessed horses, these lackeys, partly savages, and partly eunuchs, and costly raiment, and the soul that is getting utterly soft in all this, and the haughty brow, and the bustlings, and the noise? And wherein do these things deserve wonder? what are they better than the beggars that dance and pipe in the market-place? For these too being taken with a sore famine of virtue, dance a dance more ridiculous than theirs, led and carried round at one time to costly tables, at another to the lodging of prostitute women, and at another to a swarm of flatterers and a host of hangers-on. But if they do wear gold, this is why they are the most pitiable, because the things which are nothing to them, are most the subject of their eager desire. Do not now, I pray, look at their raiment, but open their soul, and consider if it is not full of countless wounds, and clad with rags, and destitute, and defenceless! What then is the use of this madness of shows? for it were much better to be poor and living in virtue, than to be a king with wickedness; since the poor man in himself enjoys all the delights of the soul, and doth not even perceive his outward poverty for his inward riches. But the king, luxurious in those things which do not at all belong to him, is punished in those things which are his most real concern, even the soul, the thoughts, and the conscience, which are to go away with him to the other world. Since then we know these things, let us lay aside the gilded raiment, let us take up virtue and the pleasure which comes thereof. For so, both here and hereafter, shall we come to enjoy great delights, through the grace and love towards man of our Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom, and with Whom, be glory to the Father, with the Holy Spirit, for ever and ever. Amen.
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2010, 10:36:04 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.
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« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2010, 10:36:55 PM »


Why monogamy?  Why not long term polygamy?

Because polygamy is recognized as being too far out of the bounds of appropriate sexuality.
So is homosexuality.

I don't agree.
Christ I know and Paul I know, but who are you?
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« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2010, 10:37:09 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.

Interesting. If the Orthodox Church allowed sexual activity outside of marriage then these priests could easily be named without fear of being deposed. But since there needs to be secrecy in regard to the naming of these priests we must then conclude that their bishops would have to depose them for teaching that sexual activity outside of marriage is okay.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that there are some authorities in "the Orthodox Church" who believe the contrary.

More than just a few my friend. Try the majority of the Orthodox Church. Only the renegades hold your opinion. That is the reason for secrecy.
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« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2010, 10:37:25 PM »

Ialmisry, I am not avoiding that post for the sake of entirely avoiding, but simply because I don't have the time to read it this very moment. I'll probably get to it sometime in the next 24 hours.
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« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2010, 10:37:46 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...
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« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2010, 10:37:55 PM »

Quote
I didn't say many. It's more like a few.

The word you used was numerous. Please choose your words with care.

I don't see a clear distinction.
Not the only place where your vision is failing you.
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« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2010, 10:39:08 PM »

Ialmisry, I am not avoiding that post for the sake of entirely avoiding, but simply because I don't have the time to read it this very moment. I'll probably get to it sometime in the next 24 hours.

Take your time, you don't answer to me.
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« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2010, 10:40:22 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.

Interesting. If the Orthodox Church allowed sexual activity outside of marriage then these priests could easily be named without fear of being deposed. But since there needs to be secrecy in regard to the naming of these priests we must then conclude that their bishops would have to depose them for teaching that sexual activity outside of marriage is okay.
DON"T APPLY LOGIC.
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« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2010, 10:40:47 PM »


Umm... A few?

Yes. Out of the probably dozens or hundreds of priests who probably hold this view, I explicitly know a few of them. What's your point?


Like I said, your and my opinions are null and void. It doesn't matter what you or I think if it contradicts Church doctrine.

http://www.oca.org/DOCmarriage.asp?SID=12&ID=26
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101
http://www.antiochian.org/homosexuality

That is not the Church's doctrine, that is the OCA's, GOAA's, and AOCANA's doctrine. They are parts of the Church, not the Church itself.
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« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2010, 10:43:12 PM »

LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...
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« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2010, 10:43:24 PM »

Just to let everyone know, there actually are numerous canonical EO priests that I have met who recognize that one can engage in homosexual acts and remain an Orthodox Christian in good standing. So to suggest that this view is simply my personal distortion that one would find contradicted by all canonical priests is simply erroneous.

Name them.

I've already gone over this once in this forum. I will not name these priests because I do not trust people here to the extent that I think they wouldn't do their best to have these men deposed.

Interesting. If the Orthodox Church allowed sexual activity outside of marriage then these priests could easily be named without fear of being deposed. But since there needs to be secrecy in regard to the naming of these priests we must then conclude that their bishops would have to depose them for teaching that sexual activity outside of marriage is okay.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that there are some authorities in "the Orthodox Church" who believe the contrary.

More than just a few my friend. Try the majority of the Orthodox Church. Only the renegades hold your opinion. That is the reason for secrecy.

I don't particularly care if the majority of the members of "the Orthodox Church" (still wondering what you people are meaning by that) believe this. "The majority" isn't always a proper representation of the actual Church. History has clearly proven that one.
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« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2010, 10:44:34 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...

No, I'm not. That's why I express my opinions and try to perceive what the Church teaches. You all seem convinced that the Church clearly teaches something. I see it as simply a modern phenomenon that has swept the majority of believers and will hopefully fade away soon.
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« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2010, 10:45:07 PM »

Quote
I didn't say many. It's more like a few.

The word you used was numerous. Please choose your words with care.

I don't see a clear distinction.
Not the only place where your vision is failing you.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2010, 10:45:28 PM »

Ialmisry, I am not avoiding that post for the sake of entirely avoiding, but simply because I don't have the time to read it this very moment. I'll probably get to it sometime in the next 24 hours.

Take your time, you don't answer to me.

I'm aware. But you deserve a proper response.
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« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2010, 10:46:25 PM »


LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...

Wait, you actually believe that the OCA is the Church? Do you have no conception of the ecumenical Church?
 I am just randomly picking this post to be the one that gets you a warning for that avatar. It was provocative and I don't appreciate this forum being used as an advertisement for a group that seeks to change Orthodox teachings.

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2010, 10:46:40 PM »

I do wonder about the provocative nature of such an avatar. Is it really necessary to be a source of temptation in this manner,knowing full and well the traditional stance of the Church on this issue? I mean, would it be in good taste for an Orthodox Christian living in fornication or any other sin to flaunt his/her activities before all? In a spirit of shame and concern for others' souls, shouldn't we quietly be trying to overcome sin?  Maybe celibacy is deeply painful for most of us, but we don't have the choice to fornicate, but must rather try to somehow accept the fearsome,anguishing cross we must bear.
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« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2010, 10:50:26 PM »


LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...

Wait, you actually believe that the OCA is the Church? Do you have no conception of the ecumenical Church?
Sure.  The OCA condemns homosexual acts because the Ecumenical Church condemns homosexual acts (and adultery, etc.).  That is part of the reason why the OCA and the Ecumenical Church are one.
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« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2010, 10:51:12 PM »

It's clear he wants the attention and he's getting it... Sadly... But personally, OCNet needs to take a stronger stance on issues such as this. People shouldn't come here seeking answers, but they do. And it's sad if they come here and see the same drivel that exists in much of the rest of society. Hopefully they will realize that the Orthodox Church isn't a slave to secularism and the world like other faiths...
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« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2010, 10:51:35 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...

No, I'm not. That's why I express my opinions and try to perceive what the Church teaches. You all seem convinced that the Church clearly teaches something. I see it as simply a modern phenomenon that has swept the majority of believers and will hopefully fade away soon.
The quote I've posted is 16 centuries old, and as true as when St. John spoke them.
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« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2010, 10:52:30 PM »


LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...

Wait, you actually believe that the OCA is the Church? Do you have no conception of the ecumenical Church?
Sure.  The OCA condemns homosexual acts because the Ecumenical Church condemns homosexual acts (and adultery, etc.).  That is part of the reason why the OCA and the Ecumenical Church are one.

So John Chrysostom is the infallible and supreme mouthpiece of the Ecumenical Church?

Not that I'm admitting that he actually sides with you (I will judge that when I get around to reading that), but hypothetically assuming that you are right.
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« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2010, 10:52:50 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...

No, I'm not. That's why I express my opinions and try to perceive what the Church teaches. You all seem convinced that the Church clearly teaches something. I see it as simply a modern phenomenon that has swept the majority of believers and will hopefully fade away soon.
Matthew 16:18
"I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

If the gates of Hades shall not prevail against the Church, homosexual advocating will also not prevail against Her teachings.  
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« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2010, 10:55:00 PM »


Umm... A few?

Yes. Out of the probably dozens or hundreds of priests who probably hold this view, I explicitly know a few of them. What's your point?


Like I said, your and my opinions are null and void. It doesn't matter what you or I think if it contradicts Church doctrine.

http://www.oca.org/DOCmarriage.asp?SID=12&ID=26
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101
http://www.antiochian.org/homosexuality

That is not the Church's doctrine, that is the OCA's, GOAA's, and AOCANA's doctrine. They are parts of the Church, not the Church itself.
The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole. [Episcopatus unus est, cuius a singulis in solidum pars tenetur: the quote has become a maxim]. 
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« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2010, 10:55:45 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...

No, I'm not. That's why I express my opinions and try to perceive what the Church teaches. You all seem convinced that the Church clearly teaches something. I see it as simply a modern phenomenon that has swept the majority of believers and will hopefully fade away soon.
Matthew 16:18
"I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

If the gates of Hades shall not prevail against the Church, homosexual advocating will also not prevail against Her teachings.  
not matter how much it tries to enter by the back gate (sorry, couldn't resist).
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« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2010, 10:57:02 PM »


LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...

Wait, you actually believe that the OCA is the Church? Do you have no conception of the ecumenical Church?
Sure.  The OCA condemns homosexual acts because the Ecumenical Church condemns homosexual acts (and adultery, etc.).  That is part of the reason why the OCA and the Ecumenical Church are one.

So John Chrysostom is the infallible and supreme mouthpiece of the Ecumenical Church?

Not that I'm admitting that he actually sides with you (I will judge that when I get around to reading that), but hypothetically assuming that you are right.
He's a lead singer in the Church's chorus.  And we are all singing the same note.
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« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2010, 10:58:45 PM »


Is it really necessary to be a source of temptation in this manner,knowing full and well the traditional stance of the Church on this issue?

You assume too much about my knowledge.


I mean, would it be in good taste for an Orthodox Christian living in fornication or any other sin to flaunt his/her activities before all?

I don't believe that heterosexuals in long-term monogamous relationships intended eventually for marriage (particularly in the engagement stage) are committing sin by having sex. I don't think that that is what was meant by fornication.

But what makes you speak of "flaunting activities"? So far I have not at all discussed my sexual lifestyle.
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« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2010, 11:00:02 PM »


...if you really are as honest and upstanding as you claim to be, why would you have such a despicable, insulting and un-Christian avatar?

I don't recognize it as despicable, insulting, or un-Christian.


Why would you advertise a group who stands in direct opposition to Holy Orthodoxy?

I don't think that Axios is in opposition to orthodoxy.

Are YOU the Orthodox Church?

-I don't mean that to offend you or sound arrogant, but seriously...

No, I'm not. That's why I express my opinions and try to perceive what the Church teaches. You all seem convinced that the Church clearly teaches something. I see it as simply a modern phenomenon that has swept the majority of believers and will hopefully fade away soon.
Matthew 16:18
"I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

If the gates of Hades shall not prevail against the Church, homosexual advocating will also not prevail against Her teachings.  

Are you hearing what I'm saying? I don't see an inherent condemnation of homosexual acts as the Church's teaching, and thus if homosexual advocating prevailed, I don't think it would be the gates of hell prevailing against the Church.
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« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2010, 11:06:42 PM »


LOL so are you the one who decides who is the Church and what they believe? I'm sorry but there is no way I can listen to you if you are like that...

The identity of the Church is never really clear. It's up to individuals to determine who they think the Church is. Only after that can they submit to the teachings of that body. I don't think you and I have terribly different conceptions of who the Church is. But for some reason you think the OCA is an absolute representative of the Ecumenical Church and I don't.
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« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2010, 11:08:40 PM »

Quote
I don't believe that heterosexuals in long-term monogamous relationships intended eventually for marriage (particularly in the engagement stage) are committing sin by having sex. I don't think that that is what was meant by fornication.

I think the bible makes it quite plain that intimacy is to be reserved for after marriage for the Christian. Why must we ape the secular world's ways? We are called apart to a different standard. Why can't people be grateful for the fact that someone loves them and wants to marry them and, out of gratitude and purity, save themselves for after the church marriage? I don't understand what is so hard about this.
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« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2010, 11:08:53 PM »

We don't need another thread on homosexuality on this forum. The commonly understood teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church is that homosexual relations are sinful. We've allowed open discussion on the topic for some time, because we are aware of discussion in the Orthodox world concerning this issue, but frankly, I am not personally interested in allowing the forum to be a platform for constant questioning of commonly-accepted Orthodox moral teachings.

I don't intend to close the other threads that already exist, but this one is just provocative. Enough is enough.

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« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2010, 11:13:58 PM »

It's clear he wants the attention and he's getting it... Sadly... But personally, OCNet needs to take a stronger stance on issues such as this.

Hope you are satisfied. Next time report your concerns to the moderators or bring it to the attention of Fr Chris directly, please.

Quote
People shouldn't come here seeking answers, but they do.

Sure they should. I totally disagree with your reasoning. People always say "talk to your priest for authoritative answers."  1: there are several priests on this forum 2: Priests don't always represent Orthodox teachings, as we can tell from the reports of some who are saying that priests teach them that certain things are not sins.

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2010, 11:16:40 PM »

I was wondering about his avatar
The following quote by Tamara is transferred from "Communion in the Catholic Church Thread" because it is very relevant to answering the above statement.

"I would take your question to a different Orthodox forum. This forum is set-up as a free-for-all. You will get opinions from all sorts of people with various political views who are not Orthodox clergy or even Orthodox Christians. Some folks who post on this forum are atheist who were once Orthodox Christians and some believe people can engage in homosexual acts and still be Orthodox Christians in good standing. In fact, I think all inquirers or catechumens would do well to go to other sites for Orthodox counsel, information or advice."




I agree, and to get the REAL stance of the Orthodox Church, talk to a real Priest, or even contact a seminary, don't come here for it... Even an official Orthodox-affiliated site such as the OCA or GOA is sufficient. But not a forum or blog...

Totally disagree, for the reasons stated in my post above, but I won't belabor the point, since the thread is locked and you can't respond to me. Contact me via private message if you'd like.

Fr Anastasios
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