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Orthodox11
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« on: January 12, 2010, 08:41:57 PM » |
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I was watching this documentary on African civilisations on the BBC earlier. The episode on Ethiopia made a lot of references to Orthodoxy. It's well worth watching for those who can: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00pzc1l/Lost_Kingdoms_of_Africa_Ethiopia/One thing didn't sound right to me though. In the documentary, the presenter says Ethiopians make a kind of meed out of honey, which is both a national drink and the Communion wine used in the Liturgy. Could someone please clarify? |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2010, 08:51:54 PM » |
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Were they referring to Tej?
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Orthodox11
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 09:20:50 PM » |
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Were they referring to Tej?
Yes. Is this really used for Holy Communion? |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 09:22:55 PM » |
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Were they referring to Tej?
Yes. Is this really used for Holy Communion? Sorry, I don't know. I'm sure there are others on this forum who could answer that, though. Is the idea curious to you because Tej appears to be made from honey rather than grapes? |
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 09:28:02 PM » |
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No. Tej is used as a celebratory drink after long fasts, such as Lent. It is fermented honey. Very sweet. The Eucharistic wine is actually made from raisins.
Selam
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« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 09:28:39 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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"Salvation is free, but not easy. It is completely dependent upon the grace of God, and yet we must work it out with fear and trembling. It is given to all, but only a few find it. We are saved only by His Cross, and yet not without taking up our own." +GMK+
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Orthodox11
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 09:35:20 PM » |
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Is the idea curious to you because Tej appears to be made from honey rather than grapes?
Yes. I had always understood that wheat, grape-wine, and water were non-negotiables. No. Tej is used as a celebratory drink after long fasts, such as Lent. It is fermented honey. Very sweet. The Eucharistic wine is actually made from raisins.
Thank you, that makes more sense than what was said in the documentary. |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 09:41:06 PM » |
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Yes. I had always understood that wheat, grape-wine, and water were non-negotiables.
I don't think water is mixed into the wine in all of the Oriental churches, actually. And there was no indication in the Gospels that it was done. |
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Orthodox11
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 09:47:59 PM » |
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I don't think water is mixed into the wine in all of the Oriental churches, actually. And there was no indication in the Gospels that it was done.
Sorry, I should have clarified. When I mentioned water, I was referring to the bread being made from wheat and water (I deliberately left leaven out since it's being discussed elsewhere) alone, without eggs, milk, sugar, etc. But what you say is interesting. Which OO churches do not mix the wine with water? I realise that the adding of boiling water to symbolise the fervour of the Holy Spirit is a uniquely Byzantine practice, but I thought mixing wine with water during the preparation of the Holy Gifts to symbolise water and blood spilling from the wound of Christ on the Cross was a universal one. It is certainly the practice in the Coptic Church. But that's the only OO liturgical tradition I've had any significant exposure to. |
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« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 09:48:57 PM by Orthodox11 »
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 09:52:23 PM » |
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I've been told that it's not done in the Armenian church.
There was some thread that made some statement about the OO churches in general, so I don't know who besides the Armenians do.
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 09:55:02 PM » |
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The Armenian Church does not mix water with the Eucharistic wine.
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2010, 09:57:48 PM » |
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The Armenian Church does not mix water with the Eucharistic wine.
Are you the only ones? |
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 09:59:35 PM » |
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I think so.
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Orthodox11
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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2010, 10:07:47 PM » |
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From this thread: "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
-Amen-
Does the Ethiopian Church not include the "Who was crucified for us" in the Trisagion? |
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2010, 01:19:37 AM » |
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From this thread: "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
-Amen-
Does the Ethiopian Church not include the "Who was crucified for us" in the Trisagion? Good question. I'm afraid I don't know. The prayers I posted are a form of the Mequteria Prayers that were translated for me by brother Hiywot, I believe. But I am guessing that to include "Who was crucified for us" certainly cannot hurt. Selam |
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"Salvation is free, but not easy. It is completely dependent upon the grace of God, and yet we must work it out with fear and trembling. It is given to all, but only a few find it. We are saved only by His Cross, and yet not without taking up our own." +GMK+
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Iconodule
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« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2010, 01:27:20 AM » |
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From this thread: "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
-Amen-
Does the Ethiopian Church not include the "Who was crucified for us" in the Trisagion? Good question. I'm afraid I don't know. The prayers I posted are a form of the Mequteria Prayers that were translated for me by brother Hiywot, I believe. But I am guessing that to include "Who was crucified for us" certainly cannot hurt. Well, it would depend on whether you interpreted the hymn to be Trinitarian or about Christ specifically. |
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2010, 02:15:24 AM » |
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In the OO tradition, the hymn has always been interpreted as being about Christ.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2010, 03:42:11 AM » |
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From this thread: "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
-Amen-
Does the Ethiopian Church not include the "Who was crucified for us" in the Trisagion? It would be a little odd if that was the case given that their mother church, the Coptic church, inserts the clause in the Trisagion. (Though what I have experienced in Coptic churches is a reference to the birth in the first recitation, a reference to the crucifixion in the second, and a reference to the resurrection in the third.) |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2010, 03:42:49 AM » |
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From this thread: "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
-Amen-
Does the Ethiopian Church not include the "Who was crucified for us" in the Trisagion? Good question. I'm afraid I don't know. The prayers I posted are a form of the Mequteria Prayers that were translated for me by brother Hiywot, I believe. But I am guessing that to include "Who was crucified for us" certainly cannot hurt. Well, it would depend on whether you interpreted the hymn to be Trinitarian or about Christ specifically. The Trisagion is generally interpreted as Christological in the OO Tradition. |
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Hiywot
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2010, 10:05:28 AM » |
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From this thread: "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
"Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: Have Mercy on Us."
-Amen-
Does the Ethiopian Church not include the "Who was crucified for us" in the Trisagion? The Ethiopian Church does include the "Who was crucified for us" in the Trisagion. |
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Salpy
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2010, 09:03:29 PM » |
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Thank you for the information.  So should the prayer quoted above by Gebre Menfes Kidus have that phrase in it, after the word "Immortal," or is the prayer sometimes said without the phrase? |
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Hiywot
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« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2010, 03:52:29 AM » |
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What is quoted by Gebre Menfes Qidus is the short form.
The actual prayer refers not only crucification but the birth, crucification, passion, death,and resurrection of Jesus. All, of course, after the word "Immortal".
Hiywot
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2010, 04:42:13 AM » |
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What is quoted by Gebre Menfes Qidus is the short form.
The actual prayer refers not only crucification but the birth, crucification, passion, death,and resurrection of Jesus. All, of course, after the word "Immortal".
Hiywot
That seems to be more like what I've seen the Copts do. |
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