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Author Topic: Frustration and Confusion  (Read 4972 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2010, 07:44:49 PM »

Trust me, you'll get over it.

These words, and indeed your entire post, will come back to haunt you in time.
Remember that I said this when it happens.
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« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2010, 08:02:48 PM »

Trust me, you'll get over it.

These words, and indeed your entire post, will come back to haunt you in time.
Remember that I said this when it happens.

Well why don't you pray that these word don't come back to haunt him? Let's all pray that our insensitive words don't come back to haunt us. But I do agree that saying "You'll get over it" can sound pretty callous, as was the rest of his post. But I trust that this person meant well. I know the point he was trying to make. But I personally disagree with his approach. No one needs to be "put in their place" when they are expressing their pains, doubts, and frustrations in such a vulnerable manner. I admire Asteriktos for being so brave and honest in revealing his troubles to us in such a forthright and open way. So therefore I don't think any of us should be trying to play the "gotcha" game right now. Just my opnion.

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« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2010, 08:25:17 PM »

Well why don't you pray that these word don't come back to haunt him? Let's all pray that our insensitive words don't come back to haunt us.
The die is cast and the Moirae cut the thread when our words are spoken. You might as well pray that the tide doesn't come in.
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« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2010, 08:42:52 PM »

Well why don't you pray that these word don't come back to haunt him? Let's all pray that our insensitive words don't come back to haunt us.
The die is cast and the Moirae cut the thread when our words are spoken. You might as well pray that the tide doesn't come in.

The beauty is that as powerful as our words are, they can be used for destruction or for healing. If we have uttered destructive things, all hope is not lost. We can begin to utter positive things and heal the very people we have formerly harmed. And God is always bigger than our sins and our errors. The tide may come in, but it stops at the Cross. Smiley

Selam
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« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2010, 08:52:45 PM »

If we have uttered destructive things, all hope is not lost. We can begin to utter positive things and heal the very people we have formerly harmed.
We can convince ourselves that our sweet words heal those we have hurt, and perhaps they sometimes can, although it often takes a lifetime to heal wounds which are opened in a few seconds of harmful words, but that isn't the issue. The issue here is that once something is spoken, it is spoken. It can be retracted, apologised for, but is can never be unspoken. Once you say something, you put it out in the Cosmos. Your retractions, apologies do not make it unspoken- it has been spoken. And it will come back to haunt you.
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« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2010, 09:35:33 PM »

The issue here is that once something is spoken, it is spoken. It can be retracted, apologised for, but is can never be unspoken. Once you say something, you put it out in the Cosmos. Your retractions, apologies do not make it unspoken- it has been spoken. And it will come back to haunt you.
You must have read what I did yesterday morning: "See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.  For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison." (James 3:5-8 NKJV)
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« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2010, 09:47:58 PM »

The issue here is that once something is spoken, it is spoken. It can be retracted, apologised for, but is can never be unspoken. Once you say something, you put it out in the Cosmos. Your retractions, apologies do not make it unspoken- it has been spoken. And it will come back to haunt you.
You must have read what I did yesterday morning: "See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.  For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison." (James 3:5-8 NKJV)

I heartly agree with you both. Redolent with pharisaism, the post was utterly inappropriate.
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« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2010, 09:52:25 PM »

If we have uttered destructive things, all hope is not lost. We can begin to utter positive things and heal the very people we have formerly harmed.
We can convince ourselves that our sweet words heal those we have hurt, and perhaps they sometimes can, although it often takes a lifetime to heal wounds which are opened in a few seconds of harmful words, but that isn't the issue. The issue here is that once something is spoken, it is spoken. It can be retracted, apologised for, but is can never be unspoken. Once you say something, you put it out in the Cosmos. Your retractions, apologies do not make it unspoken- it has been spoken. And it will come back to haunt you.

Let us speak words of Life, Love, Hope, and Healing. Let us speak words that will uplift, not tear down. Let us speak words that glorify the Word of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ. And let us remember that God is Lord of the cosmos; and what satan intends for evil God can use for good.

"There are those who wound with a sword as they speak, but the words of the wise heal." [Proverbs 12:20]

"Lord have mercy on us."


Selam

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« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2010, 10:37:47 PM »

Let us speak words of Life, Love, Hope, and Healing.
Lettuce.
Doesn't change the fact that you can't unspeak what you've spoken. What's done is done.
The entire third Chapter of the Epistle of James covers this topic.
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« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2010, 10:59:09 PM »

If we have uttered destructive things, all hope is not lost. We can begin to utter positive things and heal the very people we have formerly harmed.
We can convince ourselves that our sweet words heal those we have hurt, and perhaps they sometimes can, although it often takes a lifetime to heal wounds which are opened in a few seconds of harmful words, but that isn't the issue. The issue here is that once something is spoken, it is spoken. It can be retracted, apologised for, but is can never be unspoken. Once you say something, you put it out in the Cosmos. Your retractions, apologies do not make it unspoken- it has been spoken. And it will come back to haunt you.
I pray that they don't come back to haunt him.
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« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2010, 11:00:04 PM »

I pray that they don't come back to haunt him.
See reply No. 47.
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« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2010, 11:00:50 PM »

If we have uttered destructive things, all hope is not lost. We can begin to utter positive things and heal the very people we have formerly harmed.
We can convince ourselves that our sweet words heal those we have hurt, and perhaps they sometimes can, although it often takes a lifetime to heal wounds which are opened in a few seconds of harmful words, but that isn't the issue. The issue here is that once something is spoken, it is spoken. It can be retracted, apologised for, but is can never be unspoken. Once you say something, you put it out in the Cosmos. Your retractions, apologies do not make it unspoken- it has been spoken. And it will come back to haunt you.

Let us speak words of Life, Love, Hope, and Healing. Let us speak words that will uplift, not tear down. Let us speak words that glorify the Word of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ. And let us remember that God is Lord of the cosmos; and what satan intends for evil God can use for good.

"There are those who wound with a sword as they speak, but the words of the wise heal." [Proverbs 12:20]

"Lord have mercy on us."


Selam


Its great to see a true Christian response. You have just provided me with a glimps of the Love of our Lord.
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« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2010, 11:02:26 PM »

Its great to see a true Christian response.
Unlike Riddikulus, myself and genesisone you mean? See reply No. 45.
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« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2010, 11:08:32 PM »

Its great to see a true Christian response.
Unlike Riddikulus, myself and genesisone you mean? See reply No. 45.

George. This was not a shot at you or anyone else. I was just impressed by the love in the post on which I commented. You and I have been at peace for a while now and I certainly do not want to begin a new arguement with you. I just think that both of our dear friends need our love. Asteriktos most of all because he is suffering great pain. But Super Apostolic Bros needs our prayers too because he is obviously confused on this matter and I hope that love and mercy will instruct his misunderstanding.
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« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2010, 11:10:29 PM »

Aristikles most of all because he is suffering great pain.
Who? If people can't even bother to get his name right, I think they should follow the advice of St. James and bridle their tongues.
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« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2010, 11:12:53 PM »

Aristikles most of all because he is suffering great pain.
Who? If people can't even bother to get his name right, I think they should follow the advice of St. James and bridle their tongues.
If you look I misspelled it but corrected it.
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« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2010, 11:13:34 PM »

But Super Apostolic Bros needs our prayers too
And who is withholding their prayers for him?

because he is obviously confused on this matter and I hope that love and mercy will instruct his misunderstanding.
Oh he will learn love and mercy...and it's gonna be messy- I was just warning him about that.

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« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2010, 11:14:02 PM »

But Super Apostolic Bros needs our prayers too
And who is withholding their prayers for him?

because he is obviously confused on this matter and I hope that love and mercy will instruct his misunderstanding.
Oh he will learn love and mercy...and it's gonna be messy- I was just warning him about that.


OK brother.
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« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2010, 12:39:19 AM »

I pray that they don't come back to haunt him.

We are all going to lose loved ones, it is only a matter of time (and a much shorter time than we realize). I pray that when it happens he, and the rest of us when we are suffering, don't have to bear the kinds of comments he has made.


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« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2010, 12:20:07 PM »

OK, I think some apologizing is in order.

I have lost someone near and dear to me. This person was my aunt, who was like a second mother when I was a young boy. She was suffering from cancer and the punch delivered was harder than I expected because a few years before her repose, she looked like she was on the road to recovery.

Does nothing last forever? As a Christian, I know the answer is "no." But my words to Justin still stand, because the way things (and people) are do not last forever, and eventually we have to cope with this reality. Some have used tragedy to "realize" that God does not exist; others know that how they respond to tragedy shows their character as Christians. I guess I could have said as an afterword "Trust in God, Whose love endures forever," but you can't really tell an ex-Christian that (and expect him to follow through).

The first part of my response was inappropriate, I admit, but I was hoping (foolishly) that I could shock him into perspective. Judging by his response, he must have a monk's patience. So for that, I repent.
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« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2010, 01:03:39 PM »

I don't really know what to say to you at all, Justin.  I am sure that any comments of sympathy I have to offer are beyond grossly inadequate, but for what it's worth, I am very sorry.
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« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2010, 04:30:57 PM »

OK, I think some apologizing is in order.

I have lost someone near and dear to me. This person was my aunt, who was like a second mother when I was a young boy. She was suffering from cancer and the punch delivered was harder than I expected because a few years before her repose, she looked like she was on the road to recovery.

Does nothing last forever? As a Christian, I know the answer is "no." But my words to Justin still stand, because the way things (and people) are do not last forever, and eventually we have to cope with this reality. Some have used tragedy to "realize" that God does not exist; others know that how they respond to tragedy shows their character as Christians. I guess I could have said as an afterword "Trust in God, Whose love endures forever," but you can't really tell an ex-Christian that (and expect him to follow through).

The first part of my response was inappropriate, I admit, but I was hoping (foolishly) that I could shock him into perspective. Judging by his response, he must have a monk's patience. So for that, I repent.
I'm honestly not sure I buy this apology at all.  You say your words to Justin still stand.  You admit only that your first post on this thread, your recommendation of "a stiff drink and some escapism", was inappropriate.  Yet that's not the post that has drawn such a stern rebuke from so many on this forum, which I think should be pretty obvious, since it's that second, longer post that has been quoted so many times in those rebukes.

Seeing now that you insist that your words to Justin still stand, that you continue to argue the points you made in your longer post, and that you're trying to justify the most crassly insensitive line in your post ("Trust me.  You'll get over it."), I think myself somewhat representative of the many who have rebuked you by saying I don't accept your apology.


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« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2010, 04:43:38 PM »

Let me just say that I don't have any issues with Super Apostolic Bros. I had a friend in high school who would just blurt out whatever was on his mind. Some would have called him tactless, others forthright. It doesn't really matter, though, it's just a person expressing an opinion, which is fine. Thank you all for trying to protect me, but I'm really ok with it. Smiley And as I told ozgeorge in PM, the same goes for something like Papist making a little spelling mistake (and a corrected one at that)... not something I would get offended over.

And thank you all again for your thoughts and prayers.
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« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2010, 05:40:37 PM »

OK, I think some apologizing is in order.

I have lost someone near and dear to me. This person was my aunt, who was like a second mother when I was a young boy. She was suffering from cancer and the punch delivered was harder than I expected because a few years before her repose, she looked like she was on the road to recovery.

Does nothing last forever? As a Christian, I know the answer is "no." But my words to Justin still stand, because the way things (and people) are do not last forever, and eventually we have to cope with this reality. Some have used tragedy to "realize" that God does not exist; others know that how they respond to tragedy shows their character as Christians. I guess I could have said as an afterword "Trust in God, Whose love endures forever," but you can't really tell an ex-Christian that (and expect him to follow through).

The first part of my response was inappropriate, I admit, but I was hoping (foolishly) that I could shock him into perspective. Judging by his response, he must have a monk's patience. So for that, I repent.
SAB,
I'm not sure what you were trying to "shock" Asteriktos into, but it is now well recognized that people don't "get over it". The "Kubler-Ross Stages of Grieving" are an old model which is not used any more. The old models of bereavement held that the goal of the process was to reduce the grief. The new models recognize that the grief never goes away, but you learn how to live with it. No one ever "gets over it", ever. The Orthodox Church has recognised this from the beginning, which is why we hold memorial services for our departed loved ones on every anniversary of their death. As Christians, we all know that we must die, but that doesn't mean we don't grieve when someone departs. If they left for another country for years, we would miss them the whole time wouldn't we? Why would we miss them any less when they have gone to await the Resurrection?
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« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2010, 07:18:42 PM »

The "Kubler-Ross Stages of Grieving" are an old model which is not used any more. The old models of bereavement held that the goal of the process was to reduce the grief. The new models recognize that the grief never goes away, but you learn how to live with it.

Maybe I asked this before and I have since forgotten; what are some of the recent models of bereavement?   Huh
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« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2010, 06:14:30 AM »

The "Kubler-Ross Stages of Grieving" are an old model which is not used any more. The old models of bereavement held that the goal of the process was to reduce the grief. The new models recognize that the grief never goes away, but you learn how to live with it.

Maybe I asked this before and I have since forgotten; what are some of the recent models of bereavement?   Huh
Basically, the recent models hold that the person has two "tasks" to get through- "Grieving" and "Living", and will oscillate between the two as though they are somehow opposed at first. Gradually (all things going well) they find a way of undertaking the two tasks simultaneously. The grief doesn't "go away" or "get resolved" or even "gets accepted". Its always there throughout our life. It's no different to missing a loved one who has gone to another country and lost contact. You don't miss them any less simply because you know they are in another country. I often work with family members of people with mental illness who have gone missing. People with mental illness have a high rate of "disappearing". They can be missing for years even decades. Under the old models,the families were in the impossible situation of not being able to "grieve" because they see it as "giving up hope" and "being disloyal" to their loved one. The new models operate out of the notion that "grief" is about missing the person, and how we live with that.
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« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2010, 06:20:44 AM »

OK, I think some apologizing is in order.

I have lost someone near and dear to me. This person was my aunt, who was like a second mother when I was a young boy. She was suffering from cancer and the punch delivered was harder than I expected because a few years before her repose, she looked like she was on the road to recovery.

Does nothing last forever? As a Christian, I know the answer is "no." But my words to Justin still stand, because the way things (and people) are do not last forever, and eventually we have to cope with this reality. Some have used tragedy to "realize" that God does not exist; others know that how they respond to tragedy shows their character as Christians. I guess I could have said as an afterword "Trust in God, Whose love endures forever," but you can't really tell an ex-Christian that (and expect him to follow through).

The first part of my response was inappropriate, I admit, but I was hoping (foolishly) that I could shock him into perspective. Judging by his response, he must have a monk's patience. So for that, I repent.
SAB,
I'm not sure what you were trying to "shock" Asteriktos into, but it is now well recognized that people don't "get over it". The "Kubler-Ross Stages of Grieving" are an old model which is not used any more. The old models of bereavement held that the goal of the process was to reduce the grief. The new models recognize that the grief never goes away, but you learn how to live with it. No one ever "gets over it", ever. The Orthodox Church has recognised this from the beginning, which is why we hold memorial services for our departed loved ones on every anniversary of their death. As Christians, we all know that we must die, but that doesn't mean we don't grieve when someone departs. If they left for another country for years, we would miss them the whole time wouldn't we? Why would we miss them any less when they have gone to await the Resurrection?

Indeed!  My dad died when I was 10 (27 1/2 years ago), yet I still haven't fully gotten over it.  Don't know that I ever will.  Don't know that I care to.  But I have learned how to live with it.
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« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2010, 10:10:22 AM »

...The old models of bereavement held that the goal of the process was to reduce the grief. The new models recognize that the grief never goes away, but you learn how to live with it. No one ever "gets over it", ever. The Orthodox Church has recognised this from the beginning, which is why we hold memorial services for our departed loved ones on every anniversary of their death. As Christians, we all know that we must die, but that doesn't mean we don't grieve when someone departs. If they left for another country for years, we would miss them the whole time wouldn't we? Why would we miss them any less when they have gone to await the Resurrection?

Indeed!  My dad died when I was 10 (27 1/2 years ago), yet I still haven't fully gotten over it.  Don't know that I ever will.  Don't know that I care to.  But I have learned how to live with it.

ozgeorge, thank you for sharing this about bereavement. It helps me more than you can ever know. I was totally blindsided and surprised by how this thread has brought up feelings of grief for my loved ones, as if their deaths had happened yesterday. But your words have helped me "make sense of it."
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« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2010, 03:26:59 PM »

ozgeorge, Thank you.   Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2010, 12:00:53 AM »

On second thought (if I may revisit this thread)...

Justin, you know that there's a God and you also know that you are mad at Him.   

Perhaps you were correct. Not about knowing that there's a God, but perhaps about being mad at him. Sometimes I wish I knew (with a significant degree of certainty) that there WAS a God, just so that I could be mad at him. After all, I would feel pretty silly being mad at someone that didn't exist. Sometimes I wish I believed that God existed, just so I could tell him what I think of him. I suppose if ozgeorge were still posting here, he'd say something about God being big enough to handle the criticism.
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« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2010, 01:29:04 AM »

How can one be mad at something/someone who one does not confidently believe to exist?  Huh
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« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2010, 03:16:24 AM »

How can one be mad at something/someone who one does not confidently believe to exist?  Huh

I guess it's something along the lines of... if God exists, then I'm mad at him sometimes; if God doesn't exist, then I'm just mad at the crappy way things work out sometimes. Not a lot of the time, mind you. It's just that sometimes when I think about these things, I just plain don't understand how a God that is loving, just, etc. really fits into the picture. Even taking into consideration free-will and all that jazz, I just don't understand. Then at other times I think I get a glimmering of understanding. A few months ago I asked permission from Fr. Anastasios/Fr. Chris to post some questions about things I was (and am) struggling with, but I still haven't posted them yet. Maybe I'll work on asking some of those questions starting tonight or tomorrow.
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« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2010, 04:17:55 AM »

How can one be mad at something/someone who one does not confidently believe to exist?  Huh

I guess it's something along the lines of... if God exists, then I'm mad at him sometimes; if God doesn't exist, then I'm just mad at the crappy way things work out sometimes. Not a lot of the time, mind you. It's just that sometimes when I think about these things, I just plain don't understand how a God that is loving, just, etc. really fits into the picture. Even taking into consideration free-will and all that jazz, I just don't understand. Then at other times I think I get a glimmering of understanding. A few months ago I asked permission from Fr. Anastasios/Fr. Chris to post some questions about things I was (and am) struggling with, but I still haven't posted them yet. Maybe I'll work on asking some of those questions starting tonight or tomorrow.


I remember watching a lecture by Richard Dawkins on C-SPAN a few years ago. Dawkins unwittingly revealed two things: 1) He definitely believes in God; and 2) He's mad as hell with Him.

I think any honest Christian would confess that from our perspective we don't always understand or agree with the way God appears to work. We observe suffering and cruelty in life, and question why God allows these things. Theological truth doesn't necessarily assuage our frustration and angst.

If I had no faith in God, I could not live in such a world as this. Faith in the Resurrection and in the Final Judgement gives me hope. I also try to accept personal repsonsibility for the suffering I see in life. Rather than questioning why God allows evil (and ultimately He doesn't "allow" it, for all evil will be eternally judged and recompensed), we must ask why WE allow it. God has placed us in this world and given US the command to love our neighbors as ourselves. Thus, evil stems from our apathy, not God's.



Selam
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