I'd lost track of this thread but thanks for the replies!Happy Christmas from A conservative blog for peace!
I don't know if Metropolitan Anastassy preached at a service
at St Paul's or at another event.
But it's true that Bishop Tikhon, now a canonized saint of the Church of Russia (and on whose ukase [-ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢-Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦-Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦-+-ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¨] as patriarch of Moscow hangs ROCOR's claimed right to exist!), preached at St Mark's Episcopal Church in Denver about 90 years before anybody there considered taking that church over to the Orthodox.
He also sat prominently in the sanctuary of the Episcopal cathedral in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin (I think for its consecration ceremony) - there exists a photo.
These weren't Gene Robinson types at all but rather the saintly Bishop Charles Grafton and other Anglo-Catholics
Historically it seems the Church of Russia has acted in a balanced and reasonable way regarding these things.
And that in its roots, seeing itself as part of the Church of Russia, the Church Abroad reflects that, which is why Metropolitan Anastassy did what he did, no problem, and why his predecessor, Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky)
, its founding first hierarch, believed that if Anglicanism as a whole unprotestantized itself and then sought to join the Eastern Orthodox communion, its clergy could be accepted economically, that is, without reordination.
I've also heard, unconfirmed, that a ROCOR bishop, perhaps even the first hierarch at that time, was in the sanctuary of the cathedral either for the episcopal consecration or archiepiscopal installation of the last great archbishop of Canterbury, Michael Ramsey.
Quite different to what one reads online from people claiming to be zealots for ROCOR!
I think that there are many ROCOR folk, properly traditionalistic, who find the US convert population who hang around ROCOR to sometimes be an embarassment and sometimes to be downright disturbing. I'd always want to find out what long-term ROCOR folk thought about something rather than a zeal without wisdom convert from the US.
If we cannot even appreciate the devotion and faith which others do have then it seems we are missing something obviously Christian and deserve the castigation sometimes directed towards us.
I too welcome the point of view of such people, longtime members of that part of Holy Church, such as this board's resident Russian-American girl from a priestly family, ania.
I can't speak for them but guess their view is that same moderation that characterizes the Russian Church historically in this matter (in spite of historic Russian xenophobia, which seems to be in the ascendancy in the Church of Russia today).
My own bishop has just arranged a collection to help an Antiochean family, converts from Islam, get to Canada. They are not in our communion. A Syrian bishop in the Middle East has been helping and says that it doesn't matter they are Roum Orthodox. They just need help. They are in Egypt at the moment being helped by the Coptic Orthodox. It's working with each other at this level, while also dealing with the theological matters honestly, that will bring about reconciliation at the right time. Not a diktat some time in the future.
That's why there are already lots of instances of inter-communion taking place as appropriate, and shared ministries, and talking and friendships and prayer. Because if these things don't happen then reconciliation is impossible. It would be like a couple being reconciled without ever having a heart to heart conversation and just by means of some legal document signed by a judge. It doesn't work that way.
Of course that's wonderful about helping the Arab Orthodox family move to Canada.
And coming from your church (the Coptic Church) re: the Antiochians it's not surprising as, it seems from my POV even though you disagree (duly noted), functionally your churches are in communion.
Those online screaming about why they should not be subject to anyone else's "ecumenist" ruling have traditionally, if you look...been schismatic groups under a heretical bishop who is using this as a breakaway point to evade the discipline of the Church he is currently IN...I will choose as my example, HOCNA. So...form yer own Synod: justify by saying everyone else is "ecumenist"...point to Canon AND INTERPRET IT FOR YOUR OWN FLOCK IN EXTREME WAY THAT HAS NO HISTORICAL SENSE, or very little.
Spot on, but I don't know what you mean about HOCNA being heretical... are they Donatists? IMO those sects who deny grace in 'world Orthodoxy' (known to the sane simply as the Eastern Orthodox Church[es] or communion) are.
IMO, which mirrors Catholicism's teaching about orders, most of these bishops (the true-believer Greeks, ROAC) are bishops but are 'illicit'/'irregular', because they are not acting as bishops under the authority of their lawful churches (in these cases, the Churches of Greece and Russia including, by historical necessity, ROCOR).
Eastern Orthodoxy, IIRC, is even more
severe in its judgement of such bishops - outside the communion of the church, which of course they define as themselves, functionally these bishops aren't bishops!
I would tend to agree regarding the Kiev Patriarchate. The bishops I described above weren't Orthodox bishops to begin with so AFAIK they never were deposed (laicized - but what if as priests they were laicized?), ergo
sacramentally their acts (liturgizing, ordaining) could be seen as valid but illicit. Michael Denisenko, the former Metropolitan Filaret of Kiev who claims to be the Ukraine's patriarch, was laicized by his lawful church, the Church of Russia, so there is doubt, I think, if even western Catholicism, with its latitude about 'validity' of orders, can recognize any of his episcopal acts after being deposed by the Russian Church. (It would say that sacramentally he is still a bishop but that his acts are null and void, just as if he weren't a bishop!) But if the patriarch of Constantinople is in communion with KP churches, as I think Dustin has written here, then perhaps the KP are Orthodox by way of the back door as it were. (Rather like ROCOR thanks to the Church of Serbia.)