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Author Topic: For the benefit of the banned: another lulu from YourCatholic.com  (Read 12456 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 14, 2002, 01:24:18 PM »

Good thing private revelations aren't Catholic doctrine, but still, holy living f%-ú#!

http://www.yourcatholic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109

The Greek Church will never know peace apart from Rome
According to the prophesies (sic) of St. Bridget of Sweden 1373:

Let the Greeks know that their empire, their kingdoms, or dominions, shall never be secure or in settled peace, but will always be held in subjection by their enemies, from whom they shall have to suffer most grievous hardships and constant distresses: until, with true humility and good will, they shall have devoutly submitted themselves to the Church of Rome and to her faith, conforming themselves entirely to the holy ordinances and rites of that Church. (Emphasis added by me.)

Has this poster let another screaming, hissing cat out of the bag?
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2002, 01:34:18 PM »

OH BOY !! Cheesy

And have there been any responses to it as yet ?

No I will not ask if they were favourable or not - I can guess, but I would love to know who the Poster was

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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2002, 01:51:36 PM »

The poster is Marlene.
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2002, 01:53:25 PM »

This was the post that got me banned.  I simply asked her about those Eastern Catholic churches that are on the Old Calendar, as St. Bridget's prophecy mentions something about St. Mark's feast falling on Easter, etc.  

She never really answered my question.  And never told me why she brought this up in the first place.

That's one weird lady.
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2002, 01:54:58 PM »

And the amazing this about this is that she attends a Ukrainian Greek  Catholic Church! You'd think she'd realize that many Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches use the Julian Calendar! God Bless!
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2002, 02:21:11 PM »

Cassandrite Marlene is in dire need of a crash course in post nineteenth century Greek history!

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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2002, 02:53:52 PM »

Eh, that's not so bad.  What really would've served their purpose well was if they added the following, taken from http://www.ladyofallnations.org/messages.htm

A forewarning to the Pope regarding the intentions of the Anglican Church, the Russian Church, and Armenian Church, as well as others. In addition, the Archbishop of Canterbury is depicted in strong opposition to the Church of Rome. On May 31, 1965 Ida Peerdeman was told in a locution that the Church of Rome must "keep the primacy" in its hands. Other prophecies dated: March 29, 1946 and August 15, 1950.
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2002, 03:04:35 PM »

hahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahahh
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2002, 03:45:24 PM »


I think Im going to barf.
JoeS

hahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahahh
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2002, 11:40:44 AM »

Here's another lulu, a self-proclaimed "Roman Catholic of the byzantine rite (Ruthenian rite)" at http://www.yourcatholic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=167

This guys seems so over the top that he has to be someone parodying YC.com's only acceptable Eastern Catholics, right? Or do you think this guy is for real? Thoughts?
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2002, 12:43:49 PM »


What would the posters at Catholic.com make of St Elias Ukrainian in Brampton, Ontario??

          www.saintelias.com


     I fear they would run out, tearing their hair (shirts??) and screaming in terror!!!!!!!!!  Grin


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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2002, 12:53:37 PM »

I can't tell whether this Jeffrey chap is for real, is 'funning' us at OC.net or is spoofing YC.com's narrow approach. The last mean well - they are orthodox in the basics - but are ignorant. Their own church commands them: thou shalt not mix'n'match rites. BTW, I've met several Roman refugees at Byzantine churches and NONE have been the rude caricatures people describe online, trying to force their hosts to be more Western.

St Elias, Brampton is what the Byzantine Catholics are supposed to look like, according to a stack of papal documents... at least if the current pope doesn't intend to renege and 'aggiornamentize' them.
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2002, 01:26:45 PM »

'Jeffery' - well I haven't a clue what to make of him - if he is really a Ruthenian then I'm a Dutchman Cheesy

I honestly think that I am more Eastern than he is.

I've been sitting here wondering how to respond on that thread - but I finally thought I would just sit back and see how it develops

This Eastward sloping person
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2002, 05:41:58 AM »

Well well well!

He's done it again - "Jeffrey "I mean - a new post on Eucharistic Adoration and Benediction :stunned:

He ain't me or anyone else that I can think of - but is he for real ?"
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2002, 01:04:36 PM »

I just read Jeffery's posts and I must admit I'm stunned.  I've never before run across anyone in the Eastern Church who believes as he does.  I don't know if he is for real or not but I can certainly understand the Orthodox criticism of the BC's who are like him.  I wasn't sure that they really existed.  Maybe he isn't for real but if he is I renounce virtually everything he wrote.  If he represents a majority opinion of the Eastern Catholics I will be forced to rethink my commitment to the Church.   Cry

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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2002, 01:49:27 PM »

Dan, I was wondering your thoughts on this guy. His latest on how they do Eucharistic adoration and benediction in his "Roman Catholic Church of the Byzantine Rite, Ruthenian Rite" is at http://www.yourcatholic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=172

I'd heard of and sadly seen Eastern Catholic Churches without iconstasises (like in Don of BC.com's church) but a Eastern Catholic church having Eucharistic adoration and benediction? That takes the cake! I wonder if his church is iconstatis and icon-free and wonder of the priest faces the people during their liturgy too?

Perhaps someone who is unbanned could find out more about his "Roman Catholic Church of the Byzantine Rite, Ruthenian Rite". God Bless.
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2002, 02:33:46 PM »

[I'd heard of and sadly seen Eastern Catholic Churches without iconstasises (like in Don of BC.com's church) but a Eastern Catholic church having Eucharistic adoration and benediction?]

There are also Orthodox Catholic churches without the Iconstasis.  Many within the Carpatho Russian Johnstown diocese.

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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2002, 02:41:01 PM »

Well since I have a new computer and IP I gave myself a new identity and got on again Cheesy Cheesy

One far wiser than me is now on 'Jeffery's'case - and has been totally upfront about himself.

Hopefully he will be able to post here and tell us what he thinks about this strange person who can say "<<I am a Roman Catholic of the Eastern Rite(Ruthenian). >>"

I will carry on watching and waiting Wink
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2002, 03:31:47 PM »

Angela,

I unregistered a month or so ago.  I did not think I was banned but perhaps I am. I registered and tried to post...several times.  I am unable.  I'll try again but if you do post over there please tell them "Dan Lauffer believes Jeffery is not telling the forum the truth.  Either he or his Church is not Eastern at all."

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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2002, 03:44:37 PM »

Quote
[quote author=Orthodoc link=board=2;threadid=253;start=15#2512
Yes, I also visited an Orthodox church w/o the Iconostasis but I also wondered why the laity hasnt dont anything about it.   Is it because they may be unfamiliar with the tradition or does it really matter?  Anyway I personally love the Iconostasis and am always looking for differenct renditions of it in churches that I may visit.

JoeS



date=1038508426]
[I'd heard of and sadly seen Eastern Catholic Churches without iconstasises (like in Don of BC.com's church) but a Eastern Catholic church having Eucharistic adoration and benediction?]

There are also Orthodox Catholic churches without the Iconstasis.  Many within the Carpatho Russian Johnstown diocese.

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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2002, 05:58:17 PM »

Hmm, this character really perplexes me - having seen his reply to the suggestion of praying an Akathist I really wonder if he is Ruthenian - I have my doubts.

I don't propose to post there yet - just watch and see how it goes . At the moment I think if I said what I really think I would be banned in seconds flat. I think I would prefer to leave it all to someone who really knows the Liturgy and the Church practices - I don't at least not to defend myself - the only way you can get anywhere with these folk is by posting long cut'n paste jobs - those they appreciate but individual thought - no way .

Sorry Dan can't help you yet - try asking them why you can't post ??
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2002, 07:37:16 PM »

My posts have appeared.  It shouldn't take Denise long to delete them, but we will see.  I asked Jeff to tell us what Church he has joined and whether or not his priest is bi-ritual.

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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2002, 08:05:35 PM »

I imagine they will be deleted quickly since you mentioned in one post that she's deleted your posts before, but maybe she's gone for the weekend and can't check the board yet? If so maybe you'll get a day or two repreive. God Bless!
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2002, 05:09:30 AM »

It's kind of ridiculous the time and energy we are spending on this guy. However he has now expanded his Profile to show that he is a Teacher and his interests are God , the Church and the Rosary [ can't remember the order he put them in] he also gives a location  - PA [ my geography is lousy so you can identify that better than me].

However , I have to congratulate him - he has answered Dan's question about his Church and Priest .


<<<St. Pius X Byzantine Catholic Church
with Msgr. Nicholas Smiceklas as the rector. >>>>

I have posted this in case Dan finds he is unable to get back on !!

Oh and as an interesting sidelight  on affairs there - both Mor and myself ,who were banned ,are listed as members with our original entry details !! Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2002, 08:46:14 AM »

Well, another Byzantine Catholic has entered the fray !!

I do not know how the Moderator of the Site is going to react Cheesy

Watch the Site - watch this space Wink
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« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2002, 09:42:22 AM »

Well since I have a new computer and IP I gave myself a new identity and got on again Cheesy Cheesy




 Slave!!

        Did you sign on as "Rose"??  If you did, you gave a wonderful and charitable reposte to "Jeffrey" to encourage him  to return to his Eastern Traditions.  I think he needs to attend a course at  ST Elias Parish in Brampton, Ontario!!!!!!!!!!!  (Maybe we can pay for it!!!)
       Also, the fact that the Akathist was where the Western Church developed the Litany of the Blessed Virgin was excellent too as so many ROman-rite Caths need to know about the Patrimony of the East and that all these devotions did NOT somehow appear in Rome circa 1550! Smiley)

                               
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2002, 10:34:38 AM »

Not guilty of that post - honestly.

I was surprised to see it - and I think I can identify the poster. I think it is a wonderful post - hopefully with her and Lance 'Jeffrey' will see the light.

Does anyone know anything about the Parish or his priest ?

I mya be posting later today - it does depend on the reply to an e-mail I have sent  someone.  Wink
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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2002, 10:36:51 AM »

We would think so, but to an Eastern Catholic this isnt too far fetched.  I like to think of it as religious cross dressing.  We as Orthodox are troubled by it but it is quite normal to many Byz Catholics.  They must wonder why we make all this fuss.
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I'm not so sure Jeffrey is for real. He seems much too extreme with loving latinizations. I mean if he's into all of those Latin devotions he would probably go Latin and maybe join the SSPX.

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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2002, 10:54:16 AM »

Tony,

While some of the names of our BC Churches come by way of Latin influence, very few are, and none that I can find are named after a Pope.  I checked all of the Byzantine Ruthenian and all other Byzantine Churches in Pa. and no such Church name appears.  Also, whoever heard of a "Msgr."  in a BC Church or a "rector" for that matter.  

I suggested that someone must be pulling his leg about the nature of the Church he has joined.  I added that there is one alternative reason why you have posted but we will just let that set for now.

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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2002, 10:57:36 AM »

Actually Anthony, there is one:

St. Pius X Byzantine Catholic Church
2336 Brownsville Road
Central South Hills
Pittsburgh, PA 15210
Phone: (412) 881-8344

And in looking at the Byzantine Archdiocese of Pittsburg site I see that there is such a protopresbyter of Pittsburgh named  Rev. Msgr. Nicholas Smiciklas!

So it appears this Jeffrey may very well be genuine.
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2002, 11:07:09 AM »

Yes, you are correct.  I guess I just didn't want to see it.  Now I must go do some serious thinking here and of course I must apologize to Jeffrey.  Pray for me.

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« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2002, 11:15:45 AM »

Dan,

That's understandable. Parishes like yours and St. Elias are the exception and not the norm, and when one is living within that reality, one doesn't want to see this heavily Latinized reality elsewhere within your Church. You have my prayers. God Bless!
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« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2002, 11:25:31 AM »

Dan,

Before the CCEO came out and forbid it, the various Monsignor grades were given to our clergy, but ACROD did the same thing until Metropolitan Nicholas took over.  As far as rector that is an office not title but it is the office hel by the head priest at the Seminary and the Cathedral.  We also have parishes named for the Infant of Prague and the Sacred Heart.

Yes, many of our people are like Jeff.  Very few of our parishes are like yours.  In fact probably only a handful are.   If you wish to be ordained for service in our Church you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that some of our parishes and parishioners make every criticism the Orthodox have valid.  It is our job to walk the long road of restoration, which, honestly, is only just beginning.

In Christ,
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« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2002, 11:34:43 AM »

Ah well the Moderator has now entered the fray !
I quote:-
<<  Everyone please re-read the rules concerning what this Blessed Sacrament forum is for. NO DEBATES OR ARGUEMENTS HERE. I am supposed to delete anything here that does not fit, it says so in the rules.>>

She then suggested when asked to move the thread to the Forum which does allow debate, that she cannot ! But she is graciously allowing the offending thread to remain where it is at present. Obviously if there are any other posts which, to her eyes suggest ,debate or argument she will delete the complete thread.

BTW did anyone notice her post earlier on the Benediction Thread [ again Jeffrey's] about her own Church having a push button operated Tabernacle Huh?

Please can I come over to the East ??
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« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2002, 11:44:19 AM »

I think Denise is suggesting moving it to their other forum where one can complain, but not complain too much, lest you be banned! LOL! So as you said, it is an impossible request almost!

Please can I come over to the East ??

I'm sure that any of the priests at these churches would be more than happy to receive you dear slave. Cheesy

BTW are you getting your iCal to work properly? God Bless!
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« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2002, 11:54:09 AM »

Nice try, Nicholas - nice try - but they are in England !!!!! and I ain't

BTW surely a Moderator can physically move a thread from one Forum to the other ?

iCal - well I'll leave it till I am full time on OS X - but the beast is doing very nicely - almost 5 hours of use on the battery !
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« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2002, 12:08:57 PM »

Oops, I just did the UK se4arch and failed to realize they were all in England proper. perhaps these links would be better then.

http://www.sourozh.org/

http://www.edinburgh-orthodox.org.uk/history.html

I also understand there to be a Serbian church in Scotland as well. God Bless!
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« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2002, 12:14:05 PM »

P.S. It looks like Lance's reply with corrections to their "Introduction to the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church" post was deleted.
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« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2002, 01:42:19 PM »



<<  
BTW did anyone notice her post earlier on the Benediction Thread [ again Jeffrey's] about her own Church having a push button operated Tabernacle Huh?

Please can I come over to the East ??


  Well, I have heard rumours of Electronic  Royal Doors Smiley))))


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« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2002, 01:55:12 PM »

Actually Anthony, there is one:

St. Pius X Byzantine Catholic Church
2336 Brownsville Road
Central South Hills
Pittsburgh, PA 15210
Phone: (412) 881-8344

And in looking at the Byzantine Archdiocese of Pittsburg site I see that there is such a protopresbyter of Pittsburgh named  Rev. Msgr. Nicholas Smiciklas!

So it appears this Jeffrey may very well be genuine.


AFAIK, there are still monsignori in the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Passaic as well, e.g., Msgr. Raymond Misulich.  And then there's St. Therese Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church in St. Petersburg, FL.   Grin
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« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2002, 04:43:26 PM »

I've posted a little article on the Issues forum over there. See what you think.

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« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2002, 05:31:26 PM »

Dan,

Perhaps at the end of the 2 threads by Jeffery you should post a link to the other forum where the discussion continues, so people know where to go to continue the conversation. God Bless!
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« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2002, 06:00:54 PM »

Quote
Perhaps at the end of the 2 threads by Jeffery you should post a link to the other forum where the discussion continues, so people know where to go to continue the conversation.

But this isn't a Denise and David-approved Catholic reference site so doing that would get the post-er banned.
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« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2002, 06:01:06 PM »

Dan,
Ive read your post on the Catholic website and I will be looking in on what the responses will be.
JoeS

I've posted a little article on the Issues forum over there. See what you think.

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« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2002, 06:05:21 PM »

Serge, I meant a link in the posts on YC.com's "Forum of the B.S." to Dan's new thread on YC.com's "Forum of Catholic Issues of Concern". God Bless!
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« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2002, 09:25:25 PM »

But this isn't a Denise and David-approved Catholic reference site so doing that would get the post-er banned.

Hahahahaha!  Awesome, Serge!

With that said, I wonder why I, having took a couple of days off for the holiday, came back and found a four page thread about another website.  I'm just wondering as a fellow participant: is there a genuine reason why this thread should go on, or is this the most interesting thing we have to talk about?
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« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2002, 12:03:11 AM »

But Mor, self pity is so much fun.   Shocked

Seriously, you doubtless have a point and I will just let it drop.  Just a note, most of my posts have now been deleted, as I expected them to be.

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« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2002, 02:04:56 PM »

Well, I am a little confused about the interest everyone has in this other board?  Is there a history there or something?

Also, I will admit that I am in the dark about this Jeffrey character and what interest he holds, but being a nosy guy Wink I had to follow the links.  Since an ongoing question seems to have been whether he was or is "for real" perhaps a look at the psychology will enlighten.  By the way, I took this from the thread which was linked earlier in this thread.

"Being a Roman Catholic of the eastern rite, we have the whole east and west of devotions to choose from. In the east they practice something known as the Jesus Prayer. It consists of meditation on the phrase: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me a sinner."

This is prayed with a prayer rope. In addition, they have prayers know as Akathists, that are sung on different occasions, some to commemorate the Mother of God, others to commemorate St. Michael the Archangel.

Nothing beats the rosary though, as this is the prayer of Our Lady. I feel very much attached to it, and it is a most powerful weapon. It seems that some eastern catholics dont want to participate in some of our Catholic traditions, I'm not sure why though."


Notice that all Eastern practices are "they" and all Roman practices are "our".  If he is an Eastern Catholic perhaps he recently underwent a change of rite.  But, it would seem that whatever he is, he identifies himself as a Roman and uses terms which show that he does not identify himself as an Eastern.  Just thought I would share that.

God bless,

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« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2002, 02:36:54 PM »

Patrick,

Yes, you are correct.  We noted that.  Called him on it and got our posts deleted by Denise.  Apparently he attends a BC Church that is very much Latinized.  I had never before run into a BC or a BC Church like he describes.  

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« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2002, 09:36:37 PM »

Dan,

I have to wonder about the purpose in such?  Why be Eastern without being Eastern?  Wouldn't you lose the obvious fruits in such an arrangement?  Very odd indeed.

And what is the story on this forum?  It is apparent that all here are familiar with it.  Why the notoriety?  If you don't mind my asking anyway.

God bless,

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« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2002, 01:05:00 AM »

As I understand it, though Nik could tell the story better, the board was an attempt to help East and West meet in an amicable setting.  It was a noble experiment and as long as Nik was there it more or less worked.  When Nik passed the website on it became a thoroughly Western site which has become filled with odd misconceptions about the East stated forcefully as fact.

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« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2002, 09:13:03 AM »

Dan has the idea right, it was made as a Catholic site for all the Churches of the Catholic Church. (I originally created it about 5-6 years ago) I have the feeling that my 'Doxing turned a few of the people more sour on the east than they were already. Also it is notorious for quite a few of the people here that have posted there now being banned.
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« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2002, 09:33:53 AM »

Oh, I see, Nicholas started it when he was a Catholic!  That clears that up.   Thanks for sharing.  It seems I recall some odd responses, should I say negativity?, on another Byzantine forum to something very similar.  If I am not mistaken that was Nicholas as well.  Seems that you are something of a troublemaker.  Cheesy

Many thanks for the history and information.

God bless,

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« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2002, 09:52:45 AM »

I'm sooooo tempted to go over to yourcatholic.com and throw a few bombs...  Grin
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« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2002, 11:02:37 AM »

Notre Dame Hoosier,

Probably throwing bombs is not the most helpful thing to do.  I don't plan on sticking around on that forum.  It's not my cup of tea.  Jeffrey hasn't posted since I challenged him and as it turns out, I made some mistakes in my haste to do so.  I pray that I have not frightened him off.  He needs to see the Church in a broader perspective.

BTW Aren't most people happily exiled from North Dakota? Grin

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« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2002, 11:23:35 AM »

Dan,

I have the feeling that Jeffrey has not done his homework on reading up on the Eastern Theologian's distrust of western rationalization?  Has he ever read anything on Negative Theology, or Apophaticism?  If he did, he would not be so eager to mix eastern and western theosophys.  Its more like mixing oil with water, all you get is a cloudy mixture.  

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« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2002, 11:58:46 PM »

Friends,

Greetings to all!  This is my first post on this board.  

I am frankly a little puzzled by this thread.  The point of this forum is to "Discuss in charity issues uniting and dividing the Orthodox Church and the Roman/Eastern Catholic Churches."  

Besides the slanderous post that Serge referred to when he opened this thread, what does this Jeffrey character or the yourchatholic.com board have to do with the purpose stated above?  Jeffrey is not slandering the Orthodox Faith.  The other board boots people who do not dance to their tune, OK.  Those seem to be internal Catholic issues.    

Perhaps I misunderstood the "issues uniting and dividing" and what it really means is the issues that divide the Roman and Eastern Catholic Churches?  

Maybe this belongs in the free-for-all forum?  

Tony
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« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2002, 07:00:18 PM »

Oh me oh my !!

Well here is a post tonight with which I totally agree - do go and see

The above Site , Blessed Sacrament Forum and the thread on Eucharistic Adoration started by Jeffrey.

We  now have an excellent response to Denise's one by someone new - Roger.

I must congratulate him - but I womder how long it will be until this one is deleted.

Well my guess was correct - deleted  about 3 mins later and frankly I think it is a disgrace - the post in question was, though lengthy ,absolutely correct in the writer's estimation of a practice that had been posted by the Moderator herself.

What a shame  - but sssh I do have a copy of it
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« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2002, 08:19:00 PM »

Slave,

May we, or at least I, see it?  Laufferc266@aol.com

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« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2002, 04:42:08 AM »

Well I have to say I give up on them -- they have 41 members [according to the stats ] but of those 41, 2 have been banned and got back on with new IDs and new IP numbers, so that reduces it to 39 and one of them has now, as I predicted, been banned [ is this a new record ?] and one person has signed on twice [ probably accidentally]

No they can keep their Site. It's not good for my spiritual health.

Sorry it turned out this way Nik
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« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2002, 09:30:22 AM »

Slave,

It's Denise's board without challenge.  Her skin is way too thin to be moderator.  It is a useless site.

Dan L
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« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2002, 09:44:40 AM »

Funny you should say that Dan Wink The same comment was made to me by another person only yesterday.

Now for the biggie - do I get myself banned or do I de-register ?

One could be fun and the other easy.

Which ?

Oh decisions, decisions -- I cannot make decisions like these.
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« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2002, 11:07:22 AM »

You know I kept it so long in looking for someone to take it over, not wanting to destroy the community, but since it seems to have been destroyed by the banning and deleting processes now in place, maybe it would have better for me just to close up shop back in August rather than letting it live on in its corrupted new form.

Actually, out of those 40, I seriously wouldn't be suprised if half of them were banned. I know a number of people who have been banned under one name and go back 2, 3, 4 or more times with new names.

However if you have a copy of that great post about Denise's push-button Jesus, that was almost immediately deleted, I'd sure love to see it. God Bless!
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« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2002, 11:21:09 AM »

Ooh, someone reposted the push-button Jesus post, at http://www.yourcatholic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=211

Don't know how long that will stay up, so try right away!
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« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2002, 12:00:06 PM »

Nik,

This is really bizarre.  It strikes me as yet another little step away from Orthodox eucharistic teaching.

If one reflects on the matter, "eucharistic adoration' makes little sense, at least in the way the RC's have long gone about it.  Is Christ somehow not fully present with me if I pray to Him while kneeling before His Cross or an Icon?  Somehow foreign from me if I simply raise my hands and pray to Him while hiking in the woods?  Of course not.  There is ultimatly one simple reason why the Eucharist was given to us; because I cannot eat or drink air.  Christ wanted us to sup on His very body and blood, thus He provided a means (which still asked great faith on our part) by which we could do this - thus why humble bread and wine were taken, and by the Holy Spirit transformed into His body and blood.  This Orthodox piety, without a doubt reflects early Church practice, since the Church has always had icons of Christ (for example) meant for us to pray before, alongside the Altar where the Holy Gifts are reserved for communing the sick - such would not have made sense, if from the beginning, RC style "eucharistic adoration" was the norm.

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« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2002, 12:25:13 PM »

As I wrote in a posting that got deleted from YC.com (because I had been banned before, was posting using a pen name and Denise remembered it was the name of a dead person), there is nothing wrong with devotions to the Sacrament outside of the Mass/Liturgy, but such never evolved in the East because there were no heresies against the Blessed Sacrament there, even among the groups once thought to be heretical (Orientals and Assyrians, formerly called Monophysites and Nestorians), against which to react.

There is no theological reason not to have holy hours and Benediction in the East but there is no historical reason and therefore no liturgical reason to do so, as Bishop Kallistos (Ware) has written.

There is a necessary tension in orthodoxy, a balance, between this natural outpouring of devotion and the overarching belief that, as the admittedly Protestant Articles of Religion of the Church of England put it, the Sacrament was not instituted mainly to be carried about, lifted up or worshipped, but to be used as food and drink. Something the Christian East has retained without the negation in Protestantism.

Eucharistic belief on both sides is the same, which is why in the Byzantine Rite there IS 'Benediction' but, true to the original use of the Sacrament, DURING Liturgy, after Communion, not outside it.

A push-button monstrance may be tacky but it's orthodox.

The perpetual-adoration craze among some well-meaning conservative Catholics isn't traditional. Traditionally such use of the Sacrament was strictly regulated (and included things like the Forty Hours' Devotion once a year) - technically one needed the bishop's permission to have Benediction, and perpetual adoration was only done by some contemplative orders of monks and nuns. It is an understandable reaction to the trashing of the Mass.

But the solution is not to take a practice that has its place but rightly belongs on the periphery of the Eucharist and move it front and center, but to restore the objective, Godward character of the Mass itself (shorthand - eastward position and no lay distribution of Communion) and to promote the use of the office (hours) over nonliturgical devotions - a lot like in Orthodoxy.

Something neither the liberals responsible for trashing the Mass nor the perpetual-adoration craze seem to want to hear.
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« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2002, 01:56:03 PM »

Serge,

Again we agree.  I posted a couple of messages over there. One making a suggestion along those lines.

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« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2002, 02:07:45 PM »

Hmm we will see

I certainly think that the push button Monstrance is nore than tacky - where is the due reverence that we [ us RCs anyway] should show to the Blessed Sacramnet.? Anyway being perfectly honest Our Lord is always there - even if the Tabernacle doors are closed.
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« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2002, 05:14:33 PM »

Well I wouldn't worry about that. I prefer to go to Orthodox or Byzantine catholic forums, or at least forums about ecumenism, where people are well informed.
Mos catholic forums are done for roman catholics, specially for the normal liberal catholic, and our posts may be disturbing for them.

I was recently banned from a catholic forum in Spanish. They said i was a Lefebvrist schismatic!  Grin

(after that I clarified them that I was in fact a "greek" schsimatic, hehe)

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« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2002, 06:29:19 PM »

Nik,

There is no way that you can accept any part of the blame for this. You did what seemd to you, at the time , to be the right thing.

The fact that it has not been the correct decision is not down to you - Denise is enjoying , or so it seems to me, running it her way.

It's a pity it has turned out like this - but that's the way the cookie has crumbled. I must say though that I feel you are probably correct about  the numbers - some posters having more than 1 identity
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« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2002, 04:35:37 AM »

Well, to my knowledge I haven't been banned yet but I think I probably will be just about as soon as I actually start posting there.  

Nik, it is a disgrace that this happened this way.  I can think of only one way to solve it.  Let's all get together, register at yourcatholic.com (under aliases if necesary), pick a date, and all go in and start posting the truth as fast and furious as possible and keep reregistering until denises delete key wears out or she shuts the forum up alltogether.  anything has to be better than it is now.

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« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2002, 04:38:53 AM »

Ok.  I can still logon there.  So who is with me?  We better start collecting Articles on authentic Eastern Christianity.

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« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2002, 08:33:52 AM »

I remember some time back, I was trying to answer someone's question on the eucharist on another forum and I did a bit of a search on the Internet for information. It was really only then that the rationalistic mindset of the west really hit me.

The orthodox view on the bread and wine;
It simply becomes the body and blood of Christ. Since we cannot eat flesh and blood, God gives us his body and blood in a form that we can consume. No attempt is made to explain how or by what means. In humility it is accepted as the awesome mystery that it is.

The roman catholic view;
I came across a site with a description of transubstantiation, going into intricate detail as to the how and when and by what means etc. that went on over about six pages, in deep theological terms that caused my simple brain a certain amount of strain. I wish I could find it now as it was so classic of western thought (which still clings to me, try as I might to rid myself of it Sad).
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« Reply #73 on: December 10, 2002, 08:51:58 AM »

"The orthodox view on the bread and wine;
It simply becomes the body and blood of Christ. Since we cannot eat flesh and blood, God gives us his body and blood in a form that we can consume. No attempt is made to explain how or by what means. In humility it is accepted as the awesome mystery that it is."

I think you have just shown us why Joe's idea, though made with good intentions, will not work.  The rationalist mind set is not a humble one.  The hope we do have is the truth of the saying "Pride goes before a fall."   Denise is almost to the point of talking to herself.  God has a way of working these things out, don't you think?

Dan Lauffer

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« Reply #74 on: December 10, 2002, 12:05:16 PM »

I remember some time back, I was trying to answer someone's question on the eucharist on another forum and I did a bit of a search on the Internet for information. It was really only then that the rationalistic mindset of the west really hit me.

The orthodox view on the bread and wine;
It simply becomes the body and blood of Christ. Since we cannot eat flesh and blood, God gives us his body and blood in a form that we can consume. No attempt is made to explain how or by what means. In humility it is accepted as the awesome mystery that it is.

The roman catholic view;
I came across a site with a description of transubstantiation, going into intricate detail as to the how and when and by what means etc. that went on over about six pages, in deep theological terms that caused my simple brain a certain amount of strain. I wish I could find it now as it was so classic of western thought (which still clings to me, try as I might to rid myself of it Sad).

For a number of years when my younger brother and I were young, our parents sent us to a very conservative Polish RC parochial elementary school rather than to the less-well-disciplined public school.  There we were subjected to RC "Religion Class" thrice weekly, which our well-intentioned parents thought would bring us no spiritual harm.  Sometimes one of the parish curates (there were 3 to assist the pastor) would come in to lead the otherwise-rather-boring question-and-answer classes from the Baltimore Catechism.  The subject of transubstantiation came up, and, in order to help us understand it, the priest gave the example of a truck filled with bread.  He said that if the priest intended it, he could stretch his hands toward the truck, say, "Hoc est enim corpus meum" ("This is my body"), and all the bread in the truck would immediately be "transubstantiated" into the Body of Christ.  As a young lad, I was so impressed by the great magical powers of the RC priests to be able to do this by their simple recitation of the Words of Institution alone.  As I grew older, however, I read about "Hocus pocus" and realized from where this reference originated.  

Be that as it may: I am so curious about the automatic monstrances being talked about on this thread.  How do they work?  The local Polish RC church had (and still has AFAIK) automatic door openers on its main tabernacle.  In a RC church that I walked into while a mass was in progress in Manhattan once, they had American and Papal flags that would automatically start billowing as if in a breeze when the National Anthem was sung (but I digress).  Wink

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« Reply #75 on: December 10, 2002, 12:25:18 PM »

Quote
The orthodox view on the bread and wine;
It simply becomes the body and blood of Christ. Since we cannot eat flesh and blood, God gives us his body and blood in a form that we can consume. No attempt is made to explain how or by what means. In humility it is accepted as the awesome mystery that it is.

The roman catholic view;
I came across a site with a description of transubstantiation, going into intricate detail as to the how and when and by what means etc. that went on over about six pages, in deep theological terms that caused my simple brain a certain amount of strain. I wish I could find it now as it was so classic of western thought (which still clings to me, try as I might to rid myself of it ).

Which doesn't show the two views are mutually exclusive, because they aren't.

Quote
For a number of years when my younger brother and I were young, our parents sent us to a very conservative Polish RC parochial elementary school rather than to the less-well-disciplined public school.  There we were subjected to RC "Religion Class" thrice weekly, which our well-intentioned parents thought would bring us no spiritual harm.  Sometimes one of the parish curates (there were 3 to assist the pastor) would come in to lead the otherwise-rather-boring question-and-answer classes from the Baltimore Catechism.  The subject of transubstantiation came up, and, in order to help us understand it, the priest gave the example of a truck filled with bread.  He said that if the priest intended it, he could stretch his hands toward the truck, say, "Hoc est enim corpus meum" ("This is my body"), and all the bread in the truck would immediately be "transubstantiated" into the Body of Christ.  As a young lad, I was so impressed by the great magical powers of the RC priests to be able to do this by their simple recitation of the Words of Institution alone.  As I grew older, however, I read about "Hocus pocus" and realized from where this reference originated.  

I think that's a classic religious-education question (usually the hypothetical priest walks into a bakery) and the answer is no, the bread is not changed. The words of consecration outside of the context of the Church and the Liturgy/Mass (no context means no intention to do what the Church does when confecting the Sacrament) don't do anything. The priest was wrong if he said they do.

Hocus-pocus, a Protestant expression making fun of the Mass, AFAIK ridicules all apostolic belief in the Real Presence and does not refer to the distorted view quoted above.

One good thing about the Orthodox tradition is it is crystal on this - a priest not acting as the deputy of a bishop (symbolized by the antimension the bishop issues to a church) can't exercise priesthood, period. Wrong context = no Eucharist.

Ignorance of this ecclesiology caused a couple of early-1900s Catholic immigrant schisms in America, where the people of a congregation broke with their bishop to follow a popular priest instead. (Two Italian groups started this way and ended up Episcopalian!) A wrongheaded 'magic zap' approach to the priesthood, independent of the Church or of the episcopacy (apart from ordination) also is partly to blame for much/most vagante foolishness.
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« Reply #76 on: December 10, 2002, 12:41:01 PM »

<snip>
Quote
For a number of years when my younger brother and I were young, our parents sent us to a very conservative Polish RC parochial elementary school rather than to the less-well-disciplined public school.  There we were subjected to RC "Religion Class" thrice weekly, which our well-intentioned parents thought would bring us no spiritual harm.  Sometimes one of the parish curates (there were 3 to assist the pastor) would come in to lead the otherwise-rather-boring question-and-answer classes from the Baltimore Catechism.  The subject of transubstantiation came up, and, in order to help us understand it, the priest gave the example of a truck filled with bread.  He said that if the priest intended it, he could stretch his hands toward the truck, say, "Hoc est enim corpus meum" ("This is my body"), and all the bread in the truck would immediately be "transubstantiated" into the Body of Christ.  As a young lad, I was so impressed by the great magical powers of the RC priests to be able to do this by their simple recitation of the Words of Institution alone.  As I grew older, however, I read about "Hocus pocus" and realized from where this reference originated.  

I think that's a classic religious-education question (usually the hypothetical priest walks into a bakery) and the answer is no, the bread is not changed. The words of consecration outside of the context of the Church and the Liturgy/Mass (no context means no intention to do what the Church does when confecting the Sacrament) don't do anything. The priest was wrong if he said they do.

My reply: <<Right or wrong, THIS IS what the priest DID SAY in the RC parochial school religion class.>>

Hocus-pocus, a Protestant expression making fun of the Mass, AFAIK ridicules all apostolic belief in the Real Presence and does not refer to the distorted view quoted above.

My reply:<<Not necessarily ALL apostolic belief in the Real Presence, but only one where there is no Epiklesis, as if RC priests had this power unto themselves independent of their Church>>

One good thing about the Orthodox tradition is it is crystal on this - a priest not acting as the deputy of a bishop (symbolized by the antimension the bishop issues to a church) can't exercise priesthood, period. Wrong context = no Eucharist.

My reply:<<The Eastern Orthodox Tradition does not identify dogmatically a single moment in the Liturgy when the change of the bread and wine are transmuted into the Body and Blood of Christ as the RC tradition does.  However, most Orthodox theologians agree that if a single moment had to be chosen, it would not take place until the Epiklesis was accomplished.>>
<snip>

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« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2002, 01:14:04 PM »

Quote
Right or wrong, THIS IS what the priest DID SAY in the RC parochial school religion class.

Then he didn't present the view of the Catholic Church.

Quote
Not necessarily ALL apostolic belief in the Real Presence, but only one where there is no Epiklesis, as if RC priests had this power unto themselves independent of their Church

I don't think the Protestants who came up with this knew anything about the Byzantine Rite or would have been cool with the Real Presence if they knew of the epiklesis. Byzantine Rite chauvinism doesn't apply here - the Roman Mass's consecration prayer is ancient, older than the two Byzantine anaphoras, a sign of which is it hasn't got an explicit epiklesis. That of the Assyrian Church is ancient, too, older than the Byzantine, and it hasn't got the words of institution! The notion that priests have this power independent of the context of the Church, provided by the Liturgy/Mass, is wrong, of course.

Quote
The Eastern Orthodox Tradition does not identify dogmatically a single moment in the Liturgy when the change of the bread and wine are transmuted into the Body and Blood of Christ

True.

Quote
as the RC tradition does.


But AFAIK the Catholic Church agrees that Hoc est enim Corpus meum said outside Mass don't mean anything.

Once again, that priest was wrong.

Quote
However, most Orthodox theologians agree that if a single moment had to be chosen, it would not take place until the Epiklesis was accomplished.

True, in both the Byzantine Rite anaphoras.
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« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2002, 09:48:03 PM »

Serge,

Quote
Then he didn't present the view of the Catholic Church.

Not necessarily true.  There are cases of RC clergy kept as prisoners, who simply said the "words of consecration" (apart from the liturgy) over bread and wine to "confect the miracle of transubstantiation".  Thus while the truck load of bread might pose problems in so far as intent is concerned (one of the three necessary things for a "valid" sacrament), it is the priest acting in persona Christi with valid form, matter, and intent which causes transubstantiation, and not his participation in a prayer asking God to do this (and in which case there is no way for God to be mocked.)

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« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2002, 01:31:34 AM »

Serge,

Quote
Then he didn't present the view of the Catholic Church.

Not necessarily true.  There are cases of RC clergy kept as prisoners, who simply said the "words of consecration" (apart from the liturgy) over bread and wine to "confect the miracle of transubstantiation".  Thus while the truck load of bread might pose problems in so far as intent is concerned (one of the three necessary things for a "valid" sacrament), it is the priest acting in persona Christi with valid form, matter, and intent which causes transubstantiation, and not his participation in a prayer asking God to do this (and in which case there is no way for God to be mocked.)

Seraphim

I don't see how a priest being in a prison is the same thing as sitting on the site of a road chanting at a truck for fun. My Byz. Cath. priest said that he can't "transubstantiate" Eucharist in that way.  Maybe you should ask the folks at EWTN about that.  www.etwn.com

In Christ,

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« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2002, 07:25:16 PM »

Well I came to a decision today - your..........etc is off my Computer. I should have done it long ago !
It is definitely not good for my health.
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« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2002, 08:22:31 PM »

I just popped over there to see what was up and there's a thread from that Marlene person about how the Russian Orthodox Church is too close to the communists.  Then there's a response about how we need to be praying for the conversion of the Russians and that's it's "sad" that the Orthodox think that Russians should be Orthodox.
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« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2002, 08:31:58 PM »

Quote
I just popped over there to see what was up and there's a thread from that Marlene person about how the Russian Orthodox Church is too close to the communists.

Sounds like she's in a time warp.

Quote
Then there's a response about how we need to be praying for the conversion of the Russians and that's it's "sad" that the Orthodox think that Russians should be Orthodox.

Yeah, it would make a lot more sense for the Orthodox to think Russians should be Sufis.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2002, 10:22:25 PM »

How about everyone that posted there close your accounts (all of them!) and let's see how low their membership dips! haha

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« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2002, 12:09:03 AM »

I'd love to, Anastasios, but as I've been banned, I cannot do anything with my name.  Perhaps I should drop ye olde Denise a letter asking for my name to be de-registered?
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« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2002, 12:48:32 PM »

Good point Mor Wink.

Anyway there is no 'contact us' button - so it's down to the trying to get in contact with them - have tried Admiinsitrator so we will see what happens.

Hmm I'll own up here to having 2 identities there [ one of course being banned] any advance on 2 HuhHuh? Wink
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« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2002, 01:58:38 PM »

I was bad <he he he> and joined the forum and responded to Marlene's thread.  Anyone want to bet how long my post will remain on the board?  Or before I'm banned?
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« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2002, 03:48:12 PM »

Not worth it Jennifer.

Ithink Dear Denise has been told to be careful about banning. I should have been thrown off after my last but one post - and I wasn't. The frist time I was never told why I had been banned - correction they banned me before I could access any reason Wink

However Denise does not seem to have been around much today - so you have a little respite.


hehehe - it has worked - both names are now off - that feels better Wink
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« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2002, 07:24:28 PM »

I am a little bit confused, why did they ban you? why did they kicked you out of those forums?

Anyway. My experience in Catholic forums has been similar. Most of the posters of these forums are modernist and they are as special as the ultra-traditionalist, and very intolerant, but Im sure not all are.

I have been banned from a Catholic forum in spanish recently. The reason: they said I was a lefebvrist schismatic!
(I finally explained I was in fact an "eastern schismatic"  Grin) The posters there were intolerant, modernist and quasi-protestant (not really catholics), this is why I don't care very much.
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« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2002, 08:13:22 PM »

One good thing about the Orthodox tradition is it is crystal on this - a priest not acting as the deputy of a bishop (symbolized by the antimension the bishop issues to a church) can't exercise priesthood, period. Wrong context = no Eucharist.


Serge,
What about a bishop?  Can a bishop be outside the authority structure? I assume yes, but I want to get an Orthodox perspective on the issue.

Cheers,

Brent
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« Reply #90 on: December 16, 2002, 08:46:05 PM »

Brent,

Quote
Can a bishop be outside the authority structure?

In Orthodoxy, no.
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« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2003, 10:08:14 PM »

I want to get an Orthodox perspective on the issue.
Cheers,
Brent

Brent where are you? Last I had heard you were looking to be made a catechumen soon, but wanted to I check up on you, with not hearing from you in so long. Are you joining one of the Western-Rite Orthodox churches out there?
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