Author Topic: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.  (Read 18305 times)

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Offline Rafa999

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The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« on: January 10, 2010, 12:53:40 AM »
Leviticus is in the OT, and was written through the distorted filter of the human experience. The only relevance the OT has is to point us towards Christ.


That's garbage. God does not change:

"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Malachi 3:6

The way he instructs us may change, and has several times, but his general will doesn't. I don't believe in the gnostic marcionite "God of the Old Testament" versus "God of the New Testament" thing. God says he doesn't change. We are not Muslims who believe in "progressive revelation". Jesus also said that if we knew him we would know his Father, there is nothing in the OldTestament which Jesus did not do or say.


MODERATION:  Quote prepended to post to provide context, since this thread was split from another  - PtA
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:59:51 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2010, 12:55:06 AM »
In the Assyrian Church that happened up to 100 years ago. By the way, the story on the woman who was an adultress who didn't get stoned is NOT in the Eastern Syriac Peshitta, meaning God hates fornication period.

Do you remove the book of Hosea too?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2010, 12:55:47 AM »
Its not in Eastern Syriac, plus Papias didn't believe in it too.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2010, 12:56:29 AM »
Quote
The way he instructs us may change, and has several times, but his general will doesn't. I don't believe in the gnostic marcionite "God of the Old Testament" versus "God of the New Testament" thing. God says he doesn't change. We are not Muslims who believe in "progressive revelation". Jesus also said that if we knew him we would know his Father, there is nothing in the New Testament which Jesus did not do or say.

Who is this "we"? Because both Sts. John Chrysostom and Augustine said that the morality of the sermon on the mount was superior to the morality of the mosaic law.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2010, 12:59:44 AM »
The issue is not whether one is a virgin or not.

Please expand on this point.

Given that virginity can be lost within sexual relationships accepted by the Church, whether a potential partner is a virgin or not is not inherently significant.

Yes and no.  It usuallly involves baggage, and the question who is going to carry it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 01:02:36 AM »
Augustine was excommunicated in the COE for introducing original sin and semi-Manichean ideas (anathema has been lifted recently). He was lax on chastity by the way.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 01:03:08 AM »

I'd return my wife if I found out she was not virgin before the marriage. I refuse to accept a lower standard of chastity than mine.

Virginity =/= a standard of chastity

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 01:03:50 AM »
Augustine was excommunicated in the COE for introducing original sin and semi-Manichean ideas (anathema has been lifted recently). He was lax on chastity by the way.

Yeah, St. Augustine was really known for being lax when it comes to sexual matters.

Wait, wat?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 01:04:14 AM »

Question: What would Somebody from the Bible do?

Deplore your system of thought.

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 01:04:59 AM »
Let me re-phrase it:

What would Jesus do?

vs

What would Satan do?
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 01:05:08 AM »

In the Assyrian Church that happened up to 100 years ago. By the way, the story on the woman who was an adultress who didn't get stoned is NOT in the Eastern Syriac Peshitta, meaning God hates fornication period.

That's sickening. But I doubt your church officials would say that they disagree with the meaning of the parable, if they were to be explicitly asked.

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 01:06:03 AM »
Actually I think I might be mistaken on the stoning for adultery. Stoning for other things happened I know for sure though.

Church officials would say it is Greek fiction.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:06:35 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 01:07:22 AM »
That's garbage. God does not change:

"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Malachi 3:6

The way he instructs us may change, and has several times, but his general will doesn't. I don't believe in the gnostic marcionite "God of the Old Testament" versus "God of the New Testament" thing. God says he doesn't change. We are not Muslims who believe in "progressive revelation". Jesus also said that if we knew him we would know his Father, there is nothing in the OldTestament which Jesus did not do or say.



He's not saying that God changes. He's saying that the OT sometimes reflects an inaccurate perception of God. That means that the deficiency is in the people recording it, not in the deity they encountered.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 01:07:54 AM »

Church officials would say it is Greek fiction.

Maybe. But I was talking about the meaning behind it.

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 01:08:22 AM »
Quote
He's saying that the OT sometimes reflects an inaccurate perception of God. That means that the deficiency is in the people recording it, not in the deity they encountered.

The first five books of the bible (the Torah) are God speaking directly so no, that's not true.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:10:20 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2010, 01:09:20 AM »
The issue is not whether one is a virgin or not.

Please expand on this point.

Given that virginity can be lost within sexual relationships accepted by the Church, whether a potential partner is a virgin or not is not inherently significant.

Yes and no.  It usuallly involves baggage, and the question who is going to carry it.

We were talking more so on the level of morality, I believe.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2010, 01:10:23 AM »

The first five books of the Torah are God speaking directly so no, that's not true.

The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

Offline Paisius

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2010, 01:11:03 AM »
He wanted perfection. No one is perfect, but we're all striving for perfection. He indeed had a lot of issue he needs to sort out.

All condemnation is from the devil. Never condemn each other. We condemn others only because we shun knowing ourselves. When we gaze at our own failings, we see such a swamp that nothing in another can equal it. That is why we turn away, and make much of the faults of others.

Instead of condemning others, strive to reach inner peace. Keep silent, refrain from judgement. This will raise you above the deadly arrows of slander, insult, and outrage and will shield your glowing hearts against all evil.
St Seraphim of Sarov


Self-centered fear drives people to do many things. Just like Adam in the Garden of Eden our egos divert our attention away from ourselves towards something we think we can control. It's a lot easier to deal with other people's faults instead of our own. We must pray for him and for everyone.


Yours in Christ
Joe
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:12:48 AM by Paisius »

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2010, 01:11:09 AM »
Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:11:28 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2010, 01:11:58 AM »

What would Jesus do?

Seeing as how most believe he never married, I don't know that that is a relevant question.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 01:12:18 AM »
Let me re-phrase it:

What would Jesus do?

vs

What would Satan do?

Hmmm.  Satan accused righteous Job.  Jesus praised the sinful woman who annointed His feet.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2010, 01:12:54 AM »
The Woman who repented.

By the way, because Job was heavy on allegory, Theodore of Mopsuestia and others in the COE for a little time questioned if it was part of the canon.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:13:42 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2010, 01:13:23 AM »

Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.

You're assuming He cares for it to be word for word 100% the same.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2010, 01:14:02 AM »
Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.

So you think laws such as making a rape victim marry her rapist is from God, and not just some messed up moral idea of men?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2010, 01:15:01 AM »

The Woman who repented.

And how is that inherently any different from the woman we were originally talking about?

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2010, 01:15:44 AM »
Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.

So you think laws such as making a rape victim marry her rapist is from God, and not just some messed up moral idea of men?

Those weren't rape victims, they were women who became widows after wars who needed husbands to take care of them or die. Old semitic custom. You accuse God which is very bad.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2010, 01:18:37 AM »
Actually no, I wasn't thinking of the story (Deut. 21:10-14) about how God's people could slaughter all the men and babies and whatnot, and take the virgin women as the loot. That one is a fine example of Old Testament morality, but that's not what I was talking about. I was thinking of Deut. 22:28-29:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2010, 01:21:36 AM »
These laws are all misunderstood. Servant girl was translated by some into "slavewoman" in some bibles for example, and singular proceedings against idolatrous baby sacrificing ritual prostitution practicing pagan nations are taken as standard dealings. Also this law you cited is another one of those mistranslated out of context atheist apologetics.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2010, 01:23:27 AM »
What is the correct translation and context?

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2010, 01:24:35 AM »
I will have to check, but I bet its only a law on how to deal with a servant girl engaged to somebody as a concubine who has her viriginity taken before the marriage. No big deal. God civilizes people little by little, when Israelites came from Egypt they were still somewhat pagan.
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Offline Paisius

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2010, 01:26:25 AM »
I will have to check, but I bet its only a law on how to deal with a servant girl engaged to somebody as a concubine who has her viriginity taken before the marriage. No big deal. God civilizes people little by little, when Israelites came from Egypt they were still somewhat pagan.

I thought we were under Grace not the law?  ???

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2010, 01:30:40 AM »
I love James 2:18:

Quote
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
KJV

the letter every protestant fears to tread. Luther even tried throwing it out.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2010, 01:31:39 AM »
Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.

""no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son; and He to whomever the Son will reveal Him." (Mt. 11:27) Thus it should be clear that whatever knowledge or understanding of God and His relationship with mankind that one thought to have got from the Old Testament is incorrect. Not only did the Old Testament writers filter the revelation through the matrix of their own passions, but frequently they "transferred" their own thoughts and personalities to their understanding of God. They placed in the mouth of God expressions of their own thoughts and passions. How could they have recorded the history of the Chosen Nation and the revelation given through the prophets in such a distorted manner?? Because no one could know the Father until Jesus Christ revealed Him, and then only to those to whom He chose to reveal Him. Nor could anyone come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, so it is clear that we must read the Old Testament through the revelation of Jesus Christ and understand God as He revealed Himself face to face in the ministry and Gospel of Jesus Christ." - page 3, "The Creation and Fall, by Archbishop Lazar (Puhalo)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2010, 01:35:26 AM »
The Woman who repented.

By the way, because Job was heavy on allegory, Theodore of Mopsuestia and others in the COE for a little time questioned if it was part of the canon.
Tells me more about the reliability of Theodore and the COE than its does on the canonicity of Job.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2010, 01:36:17 AM »

Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.

You're assuming He cares for it to be word for word 100% the same.

The Aramaist supremacist has to believe that.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LBK

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2010, 01:37:27 AM »
The passage from Deuteronomy 22:

᾿Εὰν δέ τις εὕρῃ τὴν παῖδα τὴν παρθένον, ἥτις οὐ μεμνήστευται, καὶ βιασάμενος κοιμηθῇ μετ᾿ αὐτῆς καὶ εὑρεθῇ, 29 δώσει ὁ ἄνθρωπος ὁ κοιμηθεὶς μετ᾿ αὐτῆς τῷ πατρὶ τῆς νεάνιδος πεντήκοντα δίδραχμα ἀργυρίου, καὶ αὐτοῦ ἔσται γυνή, ἀνθ᾿ ὧν ἐταπείνωσεν αὐτήν· οὐ δυνήσεται ἐξαποστεῖλαι αὐτὴν τὸν ἅπαντα χρόνον.

Note the words in bold are parthenos itis ou memnysteutai, which can only be translated as virgin who has not been betrothed. A far cry from your mistaken speculation of
Quote
I will have to check, but I bet its only a law on how to deal with a servant girl engaged to somebody as a concubine who has her viriginity taken before the marriage. No big deal. God civilizes people little by little, when Israelites came from Egypt they were still somewhat pagan.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:39:17 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2010, 01:39:19 AM »
Quote
Tells me more about the reliability of Theodore and the COE than its does on the canonicity of Job.

Tells me a'lot on how cautious the COE is to avoid misuse of allegory (which in the classical rabbinical thought it inherited from only comes after plain scripture). Look at this outrageous anti-scripture bias I am encountering on this thread. Its like people are looking for excuses for premarital sex. Master Theodore was our interpreter, he knew his plain scripture like nobody.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:40:16 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2010, 01:39:57 AM »
Actually no, I wasn't thinking of the story (Deut. 21:10-14) about how God's people could slaughter all the men and babies and whatnot, and take the virgin women as the loot. That one is a fine example of Old Testament morality, but that's not what I was talking about. I was thinking of Deut. 22:28-29:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

Probably has someone like in the OP in mind.  Like David's son Amnon.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2010, 01:41:59 AM »
Quote
Tells me more about the reliability of Theodore and the COE than its does on the canonicity of Job.

Tells me a'lot on how cautious the COE is to avoid misuse of allegory (which in the classical rabbinical thought it inherited from only comes after plain scripture). Look at this outrageous anti-scripture bias I am encountering on this thread. Its like people are looking for excuses for premarital sex.

Really?  I haven't seen one yet.

Quote
Master Theodore was our interpreter, he knew his plain scripture like nobody.

Satan is quite the Bible scholar too. :o

Without allegory, you would have to throw out Hebrews (or have you already done that, with Revelation?) and much of the NT (which, it seems, you have).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:44:30 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2010, 01:42:36 AM »
Saying God was wrong in the OT counts as an excuse to me.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2010, 01:45:02 AM »
Saying God was wrong in the OT counts as an excuse to me.

Who said God was wrong in the OT?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2010, 01:48:19 AM »
Saying God was wrong in the OT counts as an excuse to me.

Who said God was wrong in the OT?

Asterkitsos said Gods laws are "sickening".

Also, Nobody in the COE "threw out" Revelation, it didn't REACH the COE. It has a completely different chain of transmission than the first 22 books so COE people are suspicious of the Western 5. Hey, don't blame us, Everybody in the West was suspicious of Revelation when they received it, what about the COE who only encountered this book with British evangelical missionaries in the 19th century? Also, if the story of the adultress is not present in the Eastern Syriac peshitta, it was not present in the bible papias used (nor was Revelations as well).
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2010, 02:01:05 AM »
Asterkitsos said Gods laws are "sickening".

Wrong person. And I think you might be misunderstanding what the person meant.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2010, 02:15:58 AM »
OK. Sorry man, I didn't misunderstand though.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2010, 02:35:23 AM »
Saying God was wrong in the OT counts as an excuse to me.

Who said God was wrong in the OT?

Asterkitsos said Gods laws are "sickening".

Also, Nobody in the COE "threw out" Revelation, it didn't REACH the COE. It has a completely different chain of transmission than the first 22 books so COE people are suspicious of the Western 5. Hey, don't blame us, Everybody in the West was suspicious of Revelation when they received it, what about the COE who only encountered this book with British evangelical missionaries in the 19th century? Also, if the story of the adultress is not present in the Eastern Syriac peshitta, it was not present in the bible papias used (nor was Revelations as well).

How do you conclude that?
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Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2010, 02:41:04 AM »
Revelation was the last book to go in the Western Canon without questions. I personally believe it to be canon, but it didn't come all at once handwritten by the disciples Addai and Mar Mari like the 22.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2010, 02:49:35 AM »
Revelation was the last book to go in the Western Canon without questions. I personally believe it to be canon, but it didn't come all at once handwritten by the disciples Addai and Mar Mari like the 22.

That's assuming that SS Addai and Mari wrote the 22 books you are refering to.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2010, 03:17:27 AM »
Actually no, I wasn't thinking of the story (Deut. 21:10-14) about how God's people could slaughter all the men and babies and whatnot, and take the virgin women as the loot. That one is a fine example of Old Testament morality, but that's not what I was talking about. I was thinking of Deut. 22:28-29:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

Actually there are practical reasons for that one. If a woman was raped, no respectable man would ever marry her and she would be destitute. By the standards of the day, this was an advancement for women.

I don't know if the Old Testament law is a dictation from God or just cultural customs, but I do believe there are good intentions behind all of them, imperfect though they may be. Moses' law told people how to clean up the mess, Christ's law tells people how to not make a mess in the first place, so it is far superior.

Offline Liz

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2010, 08:36:16 AM »
Let me re-phrase it:

What would Jesus do?

vs

What would Satan do?

Isn't this quotation something Evangelicals say? It has always seemed remarkably trite to me (one more reason to be Orthodox, I thought, was the subtler view of sin). But why do you put all the examples where Jesus forgave sinners against your own view that loss of virginity is a sin not to be forgiven? If you forgave someone for a fault, how could you be doing a bad thing? Forgiving someone yourself isn't tantamount to condoning the sin itself, is it?

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2010, 01:30:17 PM »
That's garbage. God does not change:

"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
Gosh, I hope you don't eat shellfish or pork, because God said these things were all abominations and he never changes. ;)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2010, 05:26:05 PM »
Let me re-phrase it:

What would Jesus do?

vs

What would Satan do?

Isn't this quotation something Evangelicals say? It has always seemed remarkably trite to me (one more reason to be Orthodox, I thought, was the subtler view of sin). But why do you put all the examples where Jesus forgave sinners against your own view that loss of virginity is a sin not to be forgiven? If you forgave someone for a fault, how could you be doing a bad thing? Forgiving someone yourself isn't tantamount to condoning the sin itself, is it?

Just be clear: Rafa is not, nor claims to be, in communion with the Orthodox Church. His church, the Nestorian/Assyrian Church of the East.

Fornication, though serious, is not the unforgivable sin.
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Offline Liz

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2010, 05:32:49 PM »
Let me re-phrase it:

What would Jesus do?

vs

What would Satan do?

Isn't this quotation something Evangelicals say? It has always seemed remarkably trite to me (one more reason to be Orthodox, I thought, was the subtler view of sin). But why do you put all the examples where Jesus forgave sinners against your own view that loss of virginity is a sin not to be forgiven? If you forgave someone for a fault, how could you be doing a bad thing? Forgiving someone yourself isn't tantamount to condoning the sin itself, is it?

Just be clear: Rafa is not, nor claims to be, in communion with the Orthodox Church. His church, the Nestorian/Assyrian Church of the East.

Fornication, though serious, is not the unforgivable sin.

Ah, thanks. Sorry - feel very ignorant now!  :-[

Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2010, 05:50:09 PM »
Quote
He's saying that the OT sometimes reflects an inaccurate perception of God. That means that the deficiency is in the people recording it, not in the deity they encountered.

The first five books of the bible (the Torah) are God speaking directly so no, that's not true.


Do you eat shellfish?


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« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 05:51:01 PM by Bogoliubtsy »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2010, 09:24:05 PM »

Saying God was wrong in the OT counts as an excuse to me.

Nobody said God was wrong. We only said that God was not perfectly represented in the OT. That means, if anything, that the writers were wrong, not God.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 09:24:31 PM by deusveritasest »

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2010, 09:27:21 PM »

Asterkitsos said Gods laws are "sickening".

You're misrepresenting what was said, as usual.

I said that it was sickening that you claim (for your church) rejection of the parable of the pardoning of the adulteress and on the basis of that support a history of stoning adulterers. What I am saying is sickening is your views, and perhaps those of your church, not God.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2010, 09:31:24 PM »

Just be clear: Rafa is not, nor claims to be, in communion with the Orthodox Church. His church, the Nestorian/Assyrian Church of the East.

Evidently though, he believes that the ACoE is the orthodox church.

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2010, 11:54:31 PM »
ozgeorge said
Quote
Gosh, I hope you don't eat shellfish or pork, because God said these things were all abominations and he never changes. Wink

Well, God doesn't change. The way he instructs us does. Also there is much proof that certain types of food are more harmful to your health and even spiritual well being than others:

Quote
Do not be with heavy drinkers of wine, Or with gluttonous eaters of meat
Proverbs 23:20

Also St. Paul with : "their God is their belly". The Bishops and Archbishops of the COE donot in fact eat any flesh meat or shellfish considering this scriptural connection and others. One hundred years ago this rule was applied to nearly everybody in the COE actually. I personally believe God said Shellfish and pork were abominations as ways to get people away from Canaanites who raised pigs, also shellfish were representative of general uncleanliness (they stay in the mud). The actual idea of sin needed to be re-taught in a society surrounded by ritual prostitution and baby sacrificing.

Quote
I don't know if the Old Testament law is a dictation from God or just cultural customs

Ummm, God wrote the commands with his finger.

The Assyrian Church of the East is much more orthodox than anybody here. For one it grew free from Monophysite emperors like Justinian who (because of the courtesan Theodora) engaged in extermination wars on everybody who disagreed with his view. The COE was safe and sound in the Persian empire where the sapors only cared about taxing people to death. Also the COE does not reject the repentance message, I was just saying that the story of the adultress is not in the East Syriac bible (which is the oldest NT, its organization is the same of the apostolic fathers such as papias who didn't have this story in his bible either).

Also, the COE accepts all apostolic Christians into communion, so we are not sectarians.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 12:12:45 AM by Rafa999 »
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2010, 12:19:08 AM »
So, I'm wondering, like everyone else, if you Nestorians eat shellfish and pork and cheeseburgers; and wear mixed fibered clothing?
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2010, 12:19:49 AM »
Yes, but not the ones in the Hakkari mountains or clergy. Many Assyrians are having a sort of historical amnesia post-1915 as well, especially here in the West.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 12:27:08 AM by Rafa999 »
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2010, 12:21:29 AM »
Why the distinction between the Hakkari mountains, clergy and everyone else? Shouldn't everyone strive towards the same level of holiness/obedience to the commandments?
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2010, 12:24:05 AM »
The domains of the Assyrian church were invaded by the murderous turk in 1915, so many old customs were suddenly abandoned,and folks who immigrated suffer from amnesia in some bits and pieces of history. Also many different tribes who retain different customs. Clergy are ultra-conservative as well. Clergy in the COE is like it was for the Greeks before the Greek independence war.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 12:24:59 AM by Rafa999 »
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2010, 12:49:49 AM »
Quote
I don't know if the Old Testament law is a dictation from God or just cultural customs

Ummm, God wrote the commands with his finger.


We are told that God wrote the Decalogue on stone tablets to replace those which Moses broke in anger; not the entire 613. (Exodus 31:18)
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2010, 12:50:09 AM »

The Assyrian Church of the East is much more orthodox than anybody here. For one it grew free from Monophysite emperors like Justinian who (because of the courtesan Theodora) engaged in extermination wars on everybody who disagreed with his view. The COE was safe and sound in the Persian empire where the sapors only cared about taxing people to death. Also the COE does not reject the repentance message, I was just saying that the story of the adultress is not in the East Syriac bible (which is the oldest NT, its organization is the same of the apostolic fathers such as papias who didn't have this story in his bible either).

Also, the COE accepts all apostolic Christians into communion, so we are not sectarians.

You're "much more orthodox" but fine with "being with union" (communion) without really being with union (in faith). Right........

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2010, 12:53:29 AM »

The COE considers all APOSTOLIC (note key word) churches to have understood the revelation in their own national perspective.

This seems inconsistent. If you believe you are "much more orthodox" than these groups, then how can you say that we have all understood the revelation?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2010, 12:57:44 AM »

What do you mean I haven't proved it? The COE was the only church before the monophysite heresy struck,

Yet more inconsistency. You're willing to say that Monophysitism is heresy, but not that its adherents are heretics?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2010, 01:09:16 AM »

Well, the COE believes that the language of the OO and Copts beliefs is pretty bad, however I don't think Copts and OO REALLY believe that God changed, that spirits have blood, and that Jesus is a half God, half human fusion being who could not offer his humanity as a sacrifice in the cross (thus dooming everybody).

Well, you may or may not be right:

1. The Logos "changed", in so far as He assumed an instance of humanity as His. But the two enhypostatic elements did not mix or convert in their essence.
2. We believe that the Logos has blood, yes.
3. We believe that Jesus is the Logos. The Logos is both fully divine and fully human, after the union.

Where did you get your conception of what Monophysitism is?

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2010, 01:42:33 AM »
Leviticus is in the OT, and was written through the distorted filter of the human experience. The only relevance the OT has is to point us towards Christ.


Wow. It's a shame that you trivialize the OT by saying its "only relevance is to point us towards Christ." I mean, that relevance is pretty darn relevant don't you think?

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2010, 01:52:02 AM »
Tangent on the Emperor Justinian, his wife St. Theodora, and the Secret History of Procopius split off and moved here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25301.0.html
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 01:54:27 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2010, 02:24:07 AM »
Leviticus is in the OT, and was written through the distorted filter of the human experience. The only relevance the OT has is to point us towards Christ.


Wow. It's a shame that you trivialize the OT by saying its "only relevance is to point us towards Christ." I mean, that relevance is pretty darn relevant don't you think?

Selam


Would you mind explaining how you see Uki's expression of "only relevance" as being trivialising the OT?
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2010, 02:33:45 AM »
Leviticus is in the OT, and was written through the distorted filter of the human experience. The only relevance the OT has is to point us towards Christ.


Wow. It's a shame that you trivialize the OT by saying its "only relevance is to point us towards Christ." I mean, that relevance is pretty darn relevant don't you think?

Selam


Would you mind explaining how you see Uki's expression of "only relevance" as being trivialising the OT?

The fact that the OT points us towards Christ is exactly what makes the OT so relevant and so worthy of Orthodox application in our lives today. I felt that to say "only" is to trivialize it. Imagine if I said, "The only relevance the Church has today is to teach the Faith." That would sound like I was trivializing the mission of the Church. Perhaps Ukimeister used poor wording. It just seemed to smack of both a disrespect for the OT and a disrespect for the value of pointing people to Christ. But I may be over sensitive here.

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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2010, 03:31:33 AM »
Leviticus is in the OT, and was written through the distorted filter of the human experience. The only relevance the OT has is to point us towards Christ.


Wow. It's a shame that you trivialize the OT by saying its "only relevance is to point us towards Christ." I mean, that relevance is pretty darn relevant don't you think?

Selam


Would you mind explaining how you see Uki's expression of "only relevance" as being trivialising the OT?

The fact that the OT points us towards Christ is exactly what makes the OT so relevant and so worthy of Orthodox application in our lives today. I felt that to say "only" is to trivialize it. Imagine if I said, "The only relevance the Church has today is to teach the Faith." That would sound like I was trivializing the mission of the Church. Perhaps Ukimeister used poor wording. It just seemed to smack of both a disrespect for the OT and a disrespect for the value of pointing people to Christ. But I may be over sensitive here.

Selam   

Ok. I didn't get that Uki was suggesting anything like that. I simply thought his point was that the OT isn't the be all and end all in expressing who God is. I think it's correct to say that it wasn't actually written by God (as someone has suggested), but fallible humans making a stab at expressing things about God that ultimately only matter in that which points to Christ - and in other areas there could be human error in understanding what God actually is like and wants from his Creation. Therefore, the OT is interpreted in the light of the NT without denigrating it in any way. Otherwise, I think we might be applying Protestant understanding to scripture and claiming it to be inerrant and inspired in a dictatorial way. 
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Offline John of the North

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2010, 03:37:58 AM »
The fact that the OT points us towards Christ is exactly what makes the OT so relevant and so worthy of Orthodox application in our lives today. I felt that to say "only" is to trivialize it. Imagine if I said, "The only relevance the Church has today is to teach the Faith." That would sound like I was trivializing the mission of the Church. Perhaps Ukimeister used poor wording. It just seemed to smack of both a disrespect for the OT and a disrespect for the value of pointing people to Christ. But I may be over sensitive here.

Selam  

""no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son; and He to whomever the Son will reveal Him." (Mt. 11:27) Thus it should be clear that whatever knowledge or understanding of God and His relationship with mankind that one thought to have got from the Old Testament is incorrect. Not only did the Old Testament writers filter the revelation through the matrix of their own passions, but frequently they "transferred" their own thoughts and personalities to their understanding of God. They placed in the mouth of God expressions of their own thoughts and passions. How could they have recorded the history of the Chosen Nation and the revelation given through the prophets in such a distorted manner?? Because no one could know the Father until Jesus Christ revealed Him, and then only to those to whom He chose to reveal Him. Nor could anyone come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, so it is clear that we must read the Old Testament through the revelation of Jesus Christ and understand God as He revealed Himself face to face in the ministry and Gospel of Jesus Christ." - page 3, "The Creation and Fall," by Archbishop Lazar (Puhalo)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 03:41:09 AM by Ukiemeister »
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2010, 03:50:54 AM »
Leviticus is in the OT, and was written through the distorted filter of the human experience. The only relevance the OT has is to point us towards Christ.


Wow. It's a shame that you trivialize the OT by saying its "only relevance is to point us towards Christ." I mean, that relevance is pretty darn relevant don't you think?

Selam


Would you mind explaining how you see Uki's expression of "only relevance" as being trivialising the OT?

The fact that the OT points us towards Christ is exactly what makes the OT so relevant and so worthy of Orthodox application in our lives today. I felt that to say "only" is to trivialize it. Imagine if I said, "The only relevance the Church has today is to teach the Faith." That would sound like I was trivializing the mission of the Church. Perhaps Ukimeister used poor wording. It just seemed to smack of both a disrespect for the OT and a disrespect for the value of pointing people to Christ. But I may be over sensitive here.

Selam   

Ok. I didn't get that Uki was suggesting anything like that. I simply thought his point was that the OT isn't the be all and end all in expressing who God is. I think it's correct to say that it wasn't actually written by God (as someone has suggested), but fallible humans making a stab at expressing things about God that ultimately only matter in that which points to Christ - and in other areas there could be human error in understanding what God actually is like and wants from his Creation. Therefore, the OT is interpreted in the light of the NT without denigrating it in any way. Otherwise, I think we might be applying Protestant understanding to scripture and claiming it to be inerrant and inspired in a dictatorial way. 

If Protestant "Sola Scripturists" view the Bible as a literal dictatorial message from God, let us not be guilty of trying to overcompensate by demoting the OT as merely a collection of uninformed stabs at expressing truths about God. I mean, the Prophets and the Psamists weren't merely stating blind subjective opinions about divine truth; they were in fact revealing divine Truth, even if not in its fullness. So let's be careful about how we view and characterize the Scriptures- be they OT or NT.

Selam
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2010, 03:55:38 AM »
I think it's correct to say that it wasn't actually written by God (as someone has suggested), but fallible humans making a stab at expressing things about God that ultimately only matter in that which points to Christ - and in other areas there could be human error in understanding what God actually is like and wants from his Creation.

Can this also be said of the New Testament?

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2010, 03:56:41 AM »
The fact that the OT points us towards Christ is exactly what makes the OT so relevant and so worthy of Orthodox application in our lives today. I felt that to say "only" is to trivialize it. Imagine if I said, "The only relevance the Church has today is to teach the Faith." That would sound like I was trivializing the mission of the Church. Perhaps Ukimeister used poor wording. It just seemed to smack of both a disrespect for the OT and a disrespect for the value of pointing people to Christ. But I may be over sensitive here.

Selam  

""no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son; and He to whomever the Son will reveal Him." (Mt. 11:27) Thus it should be clear that whatever knowledge or understanding of God and His relationship with mankind that one thought to have got from the Old Testament is incorrect. Not only did the Old Testament writers filter the revelation through the matrix of their own passions, but frequently they "transferred" their own thoughts and personalities to their understanding of God. They placed in the mouth of God expressions of their own thoughts and passions. How could they have recorded the history of the Chosen Nation and the revelation given through the prophets in such a distorted manner?? Because no one could know the Father until Jesus Christ revealed Him, and then only to those to whom He chose to reveal Him. Nor could anyone come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, so it is clear that we must read the Old Testament through the revelation of Jesus Christ and understand God as He revealed Himself face to face in the ministry and Gospel of Jesus Christ." - page 3, "The Creation and Fall," by Archbishop Lazar (Puhalo)

Not that I am one to argue with the Archbishop (with whom I'm unfamiliar :-[), but I can't quite subscribe to the opinion in bold type above. If this statement is true, then why do the Psalms form such a prominent part of the Orthros and the Liturgy? The OT Psalms teach us many theological Truths, all of which indeed point to Christ. So I don't think that the knowldege and understanding of God we get from the OT is incorrect; it is only incomplete.

Selam
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2010, 04:01:09 AM »
Yeah, I guess we can throw out "Old Testament God" along with Penal Satisfaction and all other inconvenient elements of the faith.  This kind of stuff really blows my mind.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2010, 04:05:11 AM »
Leviticus is in the OT, and was written through the distorted filter of the human experience. The only relevance the OT has is to point us towards Christ.


Wow. It's a shame that you trivialize the OT by saying its "only relevance is to point us towards Christ." I mean, that relevance is pretty darn relevant don't you think?

Selam


Would you mind explaining how you see Uki's expression of "only relevance" as being trivialising the OT?

The fact that the OT points us towards Christ is exactly what makes the OT so relevant and so worthy of Orthodox application in our lives today. I felt that to say "only" is to trivialize it. Imagine if I said, "The only relevance the Church has today is to teach the Faith." That would sound like I was trivializing the mission of the Church. Perhaps Ukimeister used poor wording. It just seemed to smack of both a disrespect for the OT and a disrespect for the value of pointing people to Christ. But I may be over sensitive here.

Selam   

Ok. I didn't get that Uki was suggesting anything like that. I simply thought his point was that the OT isn't the be all and end all in expressing who God is. I think it's correct to say that it wasn't actually written by God (as someone has suggested), but fallible humans making a stab at expressing things about God that ultimately only matter in that which points to Christ - and in other areas there could be human error in understanding what God actually is like and wants from his Creation. Therefore, the OT is interpreted in the light of the NT without denigrating it in any way. Otherwise, I think we might be applying Protestant understanding to scripture and claiming it to be inerrant and inspired in a dictatorial way. 

If Protestant "Sola Scripturists" view the Bible as a literal dictatorial message from God, let us not be guilty of trying to overcompensate by demoting the OT as merely a collection of uninformed stabs at expressing truths about God. I mean, the Prophets and the Psamists weren't merely stating blind subjective opinions about divine truth; they were in fact revealing divine Truth, even if not in its fullness. So let's be careful about how we view and characterize the Scriptures- be they OT or NT.

Selam

Oh, I didn't suggest that they were uninformed; that's your adjective not mine. I think you are running with polemics, here.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2010, 04:08:22 AM »
I think it's correct to say that it wasn't actually written by God (as someone has suggested), but fallible humans making a stab at expressing things about God that ultimately only matter in that which points to Christ - and in other areas there could be human error in understanding what God actually is like and wants from his Creation.

Can this also be said of the New Testament?

I'm not sure that it can be. Isn't Jesus our guide in the NT? Isn't what his very being saying that the old has passed away and we are moving on to new things? Otherwise, if the Old isn't somehow trumped by the New why are we not following the Law?
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Offline John of the North

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2010, 04:10:12 AM »
The fact that the OT points us towards Christ is exactly what makes the OT so relevant and so worthy of Orthodox application in our lives today. I felt that to say "only" is to trivialize it. Imagine if I said, "The only relevance the Church has today is to teach the Faith." That would sound like I was trivializing the mission of the Church. Perhaps Ukimeister used poor wording. It just seemed to smack of both a disrespect for the OT and a disrespect for the value of pointing people to Christ. But I may be over sensitive here.

Selam  

""no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son; and He to whomever the Son will reveal Him." (Mt. 11:27) Thus it should be clear that whatever knowledge or understanding of God and His relationship with mankind that one thought to have got from the Old Testament is incorrect. Not only did the Old Testament writers filter the revelation through the matrix of their own passions, but frequently they "transferred" their own thoughts and personalities to their understanding of God. They placed in the mouth of God expressions of their own thoughts and passions. How could they have recorded the history of the Chosen Nation and the revelation given through the prophets in such a distorted manner?? Because no one could know the Father until Jesus Christ revealed Him, and then only to those to whom He chose to reveal Him. Nor could anyone come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, so it is clear that we must read the Old Testament through the revelation of Jesus Christ and understand God as He revealed Himself face to face in the ministry and Gospel of Jesus Christ." - page 3, "The Creation and Fall," by Archbishop Lazar (Puhalo)

Not that I am one to argue with the Archbishop (with whom I'm unfamiliar :-[), but I can't quite subscribe to the opinion in bold type above. If this statement is true, then why do the Psalms form such a prominent part of the Orthros and the Liturgy? The OT Psalms teach us many theological Truths, all of which indeed point to Christ. So I don't think that the knowldege and understanding of God we get from the OT is incorrect; it is only incomplete.

Selam

Although I wanted to emphasize the sentence in bold, we should be aware of what the Archbishop says later on in the paragraph, namely: "Nor could anyone come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, so it is clear that we must read the Old Testament through the revelation of Jesus Christ and understand God as He revealed Himself face to face in the ministry and Gospel of Jesus Christ."

My whole intent in posting this paragraph was to point out that the OT got alot of things right, but not everything. This is why in the Church, the Gospel book lies on the Altar, when the Apostol and the Psalter do not. Do the Epistles have many spiritual truths?? yes. But not at the same level as the Gospel of Our Lord. Thus, it is apparent at times in the Old Testament that God comes across as a vengeful, angry God. Is that necessarily the theological reality?? I would argue no--but you are free to disagree.

For what its worth, the Archbishop does have a series of videos titled "The Old testament is about you" on YouTube. The first in the series can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQosAqS25F0

I haven't actually watched the series so I can not give you any feedback, but it would be interesting to see what he had to say.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2010, 04:12:29 AM »
I'm not sure that it can be. Isn't Jesus our guide in the NT? Isn't what his very being saying that the old has passed away and we are moving on to new things? Otherwise, if the Old isn't somehow trumped by the New why are we not following the Law?

I just meant that the words of the Lord were recorded by equally fallible human beings.  Could they not also have been said to have been "taking a stab" at it when trying to record the words of God incarnate?

I'm anticipating a response which takes into account their possession of the Holy Spirit, which is no small matter, but I still would feel you're being a bit too cavalier and dismissive of the revelations of the One True God in earlier times.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2010, 04:16:28 AM »
There's a way to reconcile things. The Old testament had 613 rules, half of which are impossible or near impossible to follow today (Temple rules, priest rules, Nazarite vows, land sabbath,etc.) so this means that the instruction changes...but God doesn't. Also before, Noah was given the laws described in the Book of acts as a basis for morality after the flood (way less than 613), so the terms of the law contract or expand, they have a fluidity but the WILL behind it does not. This is my interpretation. God cannot change yet he changed his instruction, therefore his instruction at different ages is the expression of his will.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2010, 04:18:01 AM »
Yeah, I guess we can throw out "Old Testament God" along with Penal Satisfaction and all other inconvenient elements of the faith.  This kind of stuff really blows my mind.

Well, I think to an extent we are throwing out certain aspects and understandings of the "Old Testament God" as He was perceived by the very people who served Him in order to get a clearer picture of Him. Jesus constantly rebukes his people for their misunderstandings and legalistic approaches; how they missed the whole "Loving God' aspect in favour of rule-making for fear of giving Him offense. Is it not possible that their understanding was kind of inevitable considering how God is portrayed by the OT? How would we view God if we didn't have the revelation of Christ?

Just some thoughts.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2010, 04:19:48 AM »
I'm not sure that it can be. Isn't Jesus our guide in the NT? Isn't what his very being saying that the old has passed away and we are moving on to new things? Otherwise, if the Old isn't somehow trumped by the New why are we not following the Law?

I just meant that the words of the Lord were recorded by equally fallible human beings.  Could they not also have been said to have been "taking a stab" at it when trying to record the words of God incarnate?

I'm anticipating a response which takes into account their possession of the Holy Spirit, which is no small matter, but I still would feel you're being a bit too cavalier and dismissive of the revelations of the One True God in earlier times.

I'm sorry you feel that way; that isn't my intention.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2010, 04:23:38 AM »
I'm not sure that it can be. Isn't Jesus our guide in the NT? Isn't what his very being saying that the old has passed away and we are moving on to new things? Otherwise, if the Old isn't somehow trumped by the New why are we not following the Law?

I just meant that the words of the Lord were recorded by equally fallible human beings.  Could they not also have been said to have been "taking a stab" at it when trying to record the words of God incarnate?

I'm anticipating a response which takes into account their possession of the Holy Spirit, which is no small matter, but I still would feel you're being a bit too cavalier and dismissive of the revelations of the One True God in earlier times.

I haven't really had a chance to read much Orthodox scholarship on this, but I can give you a bit of my perspective as a history major.

As a primary source document, the NT books are extremely accurate. We have hundreds of manuscripts, dating back to fairly close to the period in question. Based on the oral nature of the Judaean culture at the time, there would have been a lot of checks and balances on the accuracy of the writings. That said, these aren't necessarily word for word "transcripts" of the conversations and events. Its the main points that matter, and the main points that are consistent. There are contradictions in the NT, but none that affect the core message. Often times we are too used to our own culture--our own media culture is obsessed with details--that we dont realize that in another time and place, the emphasis is somewhere else.
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2010, 04:57:09 AM »
I think it's correct to say that it wasn't actually written by God (as someone has suggested), but fallible humans making a stab at expressing things about God that ultimately only matter in that which points to Christ - and in other areas there could be human error in understanding what God actually is like and wants from his Creation.

Can this also be said of the New Testament?

I'm not sure that it can be. Isn't Jesus our guide in the NT? Isn't what his very being saying that the old has passed away and we are moving on to new things? Otherwise, if the Old isn't somehow trumped by the New why are we not following the Law?

Well please inform your Priest that OT Scriptures need to be removed from the Liturgy.

Selam
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2010, 05:00:04 AM »
The fact that the OT points us towards Christ is exactly what makes the OT so relevant and so worthy of Orthodox application in our lives today. I felt that to say "only" is to trivialize it. Imagine if I said, "The only relevance the Church has today is to teach the Faith." That would sound like I was trivializing the mission of the Church. Perhaps Ukimeister used poor wording. It just seemed to smack of both a disrespect for the OT and a disrespect for the value of pointing people to Christ. But I may be over sensitive here.

Selam  

""no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son; and He to whomever the Son will reveal Him." (Mt. 11:27) Thus it should be clear that whatever knowledge or understanding of God and His relationship with mankind that one thought to have got from the Old Testament is incorrect. Not only did the Old Testament writers filter the revelation through the matrix of their own passions, but frequently they "transferred" their own thoughts and personalities to their understanding of God. They placed in the mouth of God expressions of their own thoughts and passions. How could they have recorded the history of the Chosen Nation and the revelation given through the prophets in such a distorted manner?? Because no one could know the Father until Jesus Christ revealed Him, and then only to those to whom He chose to reveal Him. Nor could anyone come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, so it is clear that we must read the Old Testament through the revelation of Jesus Christ and understand God as He revealed Himself face to face in the ministry and Gospel of Jesus Christ." - page 3, "The Creation and Fall," by Archbishop Lazar (Puhalo)

Not that I am one to argue with the Archbishop (with whom I'm unfamiliar :-[), but I can't quite subscribe to the opinion in bold type above. If this statement is true, then why do the Psalms form such a prominent part of the Orthros and the Liturgy? The OT Psalms teach us many theological Truths, all of which indeed point to Christ. So I don't think that the knowldege and understanding of God we get from the OT is incorrect; it is only incomplete.

Selam

Although I wanted to emphasize the sentence in bold, we should be aware of what the Archbishop says later on in the paragraph, namely: "Nor could anyone come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, so it is clear that we must read the Old Testament through the revelation of Jesus Christ and understand God as He revealed Himself face to face in the ministry and Gospel of Jesus Christ."

My whole intent in posting this paragraph was to point out that the OT got alot of things right, but not everything. This is why in the Church, the Gospel book lies on the Altar, when the Apostol and the Psalter do not. Do the Epistles have many spiritual truths?? yes. But not at the same level as the Gospel of Our Lord. Thus, it is apparent at times in the Old Testament that God comes across as a vengeful, angry God. Is that necessarily the theological reality?? I would argue no--but you are free to disagree.

For what its worth, the Archbishop does have a series of videos titled "The Old testament is about you" on YouTube. The first in the series can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQosAqS25F0

I haven't actually watched the series so I can not give you any feedback, but it would be interesting to see what he had to say.

Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

Selam
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2010, 05:01:53 AM »
There's a way to reconcile things. The Old testament had 613 rules, half of which are impossible or near impossible to follow today (Temple rules, priest rules, Nazarite vows, land sabbath,etc.) so this means that the instruction changes...but God doesn't. Also before, Noah was given the laws described in the Book of acts as a basis for morality after the flood (way less than 613), so the terms of the law contract or expand, they have a fluidity but the WILL behind it does not. This is my interpretation. God cannot change yet he changed his instruction, therefore his instruction at different ages is the expression of his will.

Yes. Well said.

Selam
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2010, 05:04:28 AM »
Leviticus is in the OT, and was written through the distorted filter of the human experience. The only relevance the OT has is to point us towards Christ.


Wow. It's a shame that you trivialize the OT by saying its "only relevance is to point us towards Christ." I mean, that relevance is pretty darn relevant don't you think?

Selam


I don't he's saying that the OT is irrelevant because it only points us to Christ, but rather he is stating that in criticism of others who appear to attribute independent relevance to the OT beyond what we see if we strictly submit our interpretation to the lens of Christ. In this situation, I definitely agree with the criticism.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2010, 05:11:03 AM »

Yeah, I guess we can throw out "Old Testament God" along with Penal Satisfaction and all other inconvenient elements of the faith.  This kind of stuff really blows my mind.

Since when was Penal Satisfaction even legitimate doctrine such that it could be thrown out?

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2010, 05:24:25 AM »

Well, the COE believes that the language of the OO and Copts beliefs is pretty bad, however I don't think Copts and OO REALLY believe that God changed, that spirits have blood, and that Jesus is a half God, half human fusion being who could not offer his humanity as a sacrifice in the cross (thus dooming everybody).

Well, you may or may not be right:

1. The Logos "changed", in so far as He assumed an instance of humanity as His. But the two enhypostatic elements did not mix or convert in their essence.
2. We believe that the Logos has blood, yes.
3. We believe that Jesus is the Logos. The Logos is both fully divine and fully human, after the union.

Where did you get your conception of what Monophysitism is?

Ok, all I care about is the divine Kyana not changing. The Person of Christ had blood, his humanity had blood, but the humanity and divinity remained separate with no intermingling, or else God changed. This is the view of the COE. The Divine Qnome had no blood, the human qnome did.
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2010, 06:16:26 AM »

Well, the COE believes that the language of the OO and Copts beliefs is pretty bad, however I don't think Copts and OO REALLY believe that God changed, that spirits have blood, and that Jesus is a half God, half human fusion being who could not offer his humanity as a sacrifice in the cross (thus dooming everybody).

Well, you may or may not be right:

1. The Logos "changed", in so far as He assumed an instance of humanity as His. But the two enhypostatic elements did not mix or convert in their essence.
2. We believe that the Logos has blood, yes.
3. We believe that Jesus is the Logos. The Logos is both fully divine and fully human, after the union.

Where did you get your conception of what Monophysitism is?

Ok, all I care about is the divine Kyana not changing. The Person of Christ had blood, his humanity had blood, but the humanity and divinity remained separate with no intermingling, or else God changed. This is the view of the COE. The Divine Qnome had no blood, the human qnome did.

I still don't think we're on the same page. You are saying that "Christ", the parsopic product of the union, had blood. I am saying that the eternal Logos had blood. They appear to be very different claims.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2010, 07:07:44 AM »
I think it's correct to say that it wasn't actually written by God (as someone has suggested), but fallible humans making a stab at expressing things about God that ultimately only matter in that which points to Christ - and in other areas there could be human error in understanding what God actually is like and wants from his Creation.

Can this also be said of the New Testament?

I'm not sure that it can be. Isn't Jesus our guide in the NT? Isn't what his very being saying that the old has passed away and we are moving on to new things? Otherwise, if the Old isn't somehow trumped by the New why are we not following the Law?

Well please inform your Priest that OT Scriptures need to be removed from the Liturgy.

Selam

Well, I don't think there is any reason to get so snippy; people have different ways of seeing things, Gebre - and I wasn't intending to be an oracle, but merely someone working through some issues just like any other member on this thread. But as you have descended to sarcasm, I guess that ends any hope of convivial discussion between you and I. Forgive me, if I have offended you.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2010, 02:23:19 PM »
Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2010, 05:17:56 PM »
Since when was Penal Satisfaction even legitimate doctrine such that it could be thrown out?

I wouldn't call it a "doctrine" in the sense that it's dogmatically binding and the exclusive way to understand the mystery of our salvation.  It's just an illustration; a way to understand what Christ accomplished on the cross.  Anyway, the non-Chalcedonians don't have some huge problem with Penal Satisfaction.  The EO are the ones who get all wound up about it because they like to define everything contra-Old Rome/demonic West.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2010, 05:34:35 PM »
Since when was Penal Satisfaction even legitimate doctrine such that it could be thrown out?

The EO are the ones who get all wound up about it because they like to define everything contra-Old Rome/demonic West.

Are you sure that is the case, or is it merely another instance where people honestly disagree on a point that seems to one side not as important as it is to the other? It is only when the side who sees it as under-emphasised decides to push for the other to concede that it really becomes a bone of contention. If the penal satisfaction doctrine hasn't become the issue within Eastern Orthodoxy that it has with the West, why would we feel any special need to embrace it wholeheartedly?
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2010, 05:53:16 PM »
Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #96 on: January 11, 2010, 05:54:23 PM »
I think it's correct to say that it wasn't actually written by God (as someone has suggested), but fallible humans making a stab at expressing things about God that ultimately only matter in that which points to Christ - and in other areas there could be human error in understanding what God actually is like and wants from his Creation.

Can this also be said of the New Testament?

I'm not sure that it can be. Isn't Jesus our guide in the NT? Isn't what his very being saying that the old has passed away and we are moving on to new things? Otherwise, if the Old isn't somehow trumped by the New why are we not following the Law?

Well please inform your Priest that OT Scriptures need to be removed from the Liturgy.

Selam

Well, I don't think there is any reason to get so snippy; people have different ways of seeing things, Gebre - and I wasn't intending to be an oracle, but merely someone working through some issues just like any other member on this thread. But as you have descended to sarcasm, I guess that ends any hope of convivial discussion between you and I. Forgive me, if I have offended you.

Not being "snippy," just trying to make a point. You haven't offended me.

Selam
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #97 on: January 11, 2010, 06:33:05 PM »
Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.
What do you mean Gebre? Does your Tewahedo Church consider the OT to be complete in itself unlike Riddikulus'? I know your church places great emphasis on tablets of the Law (Ten Commandments) and  on the Ark of the Covenant. It seems the Old Testament is very important to you.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 06:33:27 PM by ozgeorge »
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #98 on: January 11, 2010, 06:59:37 PM »
Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.
What do you mean Gebre? Does your Tewahedo Church consider the OT to be complete in itself unlike Riddikulus'? I know your church places great emphasis on tablets of the Law (Ten Commandments) and  on the Ark of the Covenant. It seems the Old Testament is very important to you.

No. Our Church does not consider the OT to be complete in itself. But yes, the OT is very important to us.

The main points I wanted to make were posted earlier on this thread, but I'll state them again here:

If Protestant "Sola Scripturists" view the Bible as a literal dictatorial message from God, let us (Orthodox) not be guilty of trying to overcompensate by demoting the OT as merely a collection of uninformed stabs at expressing truths about God. I mean, the Prophets and the Psamists weren't merely stating blind subjective opinions about divine truth; they were in fact revealing divine Truth, even if not in its fullness. So let's be careful about how we view and characterize the Scriptures- be they OT or NT.

The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete.

As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?


Selam
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2010, 07:04:04 PM »
The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete.

Amen!

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #100 on: January 11, 2010, 07:28:28 PM »
Since when was Penal Satisfaction even legitimate doctrine such that it could be thrown out?

I wouldn't call it a "doctrine" in the sense that it's dogmatically binding and the exclusive way to understand the mystery of our salvation.  It's just an illustration; a way to understand what Christ accomplished on the cross.  Anyway, the non-Chalcedonians don't have some huge problem with Penal Satisfaction.  The EO are the ones who get all wound up about it because they like to define everything contra-Old Rome/demonic West.

The OO probably don't even have the same experience of the Penal Substitution of the West.

So now you're saying it's not really part of the Eastern tradition? You seemed to be suggesting early that it was. And you seemed disturbed by the idea of it being "thrown out".
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 07:29:08 PM by deusveritasest »

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2010, 07:30:14 PM »
Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam

We can't rely on it absolutely in and of itself regardless of criticism by the Gospel.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2010, 07:47:49 PM »
Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam

We can't rely on it absolutely in and of itself regardless of criticism by the Gospel.

Well, it depends upon that for which we are relying upon it. We can rely upon the Old Testament to instruct us in the knowledge of the existence of One God, and we can rely upon the OT to teach us many important truths about this One God. We can also rely upon the OT to teach us many moral and ethical teachings. But we cannot rely soley upon the OT to instruct us in the matter of eternal salvation or perfect morality.

I would also say that the Gospel does not "criticize" or "critique" the OT; rather it is the clarification, culmination, and fulfillment of it.

Selam
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2010, 07:50:00 PM »
Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam

We can't rely on it absolutely in and of itself regardless of criticism by the Gospel.

Well, it depends upon that for which we are relying upon it. We can rely upon the Old Testament to instruct us in the knowledge of the existence of One God, and we can rely upon the OT to teach us many important truths about this One God. We can also rely upon the OT to teach us many moral and ethical teachings. But we cannot rely soley upon the OT to instruct us in the matter of eternal salvation or perfect morality.

I would also say that the Gospel does not "criticize" or "critique" the OT; rather it is the clarification, culmination, and fulfillment of it.

Selam

I think numerous depictions of the nature of God in the OT were deficient and can only be interpreted in an acceptable manner in light of the Gospel.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2010, 08:47:31 PM »
Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam

We can't rely on it absolutely in and of itself regardless of criticism by the Gospel.

Well, it depends upon that for which we are relying upon it. We can rely upon the Old Testament to instruct us in the knowledge of the existence of One God, and we can rely upon the OT to teach us many important truths about this One God. We can also rely upon the OT to teach us many moral and ethical teachings. But we cannot rely soley upon the OT to instruct us in the matter of eternal salvation or perfect morality.

I would also say that the Gospel does not "criticize" or "critique" the OT; rather it is the clarification, culmination, and fulfillment of it.

Selam

I think numerous depictions of the nature of God in the OT were deficient and can only be interpreted in an acceptable manner in light of the Gospel.

Again I would argue that these depictions are not incorrect or deficient, but rather incomplete. And I would say the same thing for the New Testament. We know more about God through the Gospels, explanatory epistles, and the Apocalypse; but as St. Paul says: "For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." [I Corinthians 13:12]

Selam
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #105 on: January 11, 2010, 08:49:11 PM »
As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2010, 08:54:01 PM »
As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.

Thanks for making my point. Just I have said all along, the NT is the culmination, clarification, and fulfillment of the OT.

Selam
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 08:54:51 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #107 on: January 11, 2010, 08:58:41 PM »
As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.

Thanks for making my point. Just I have said all along, the NT is the culmination, clarification, and fulfillment of the OT.

Oh, that was your point was it? So how come, when Riddikulus said exactly the same thing you sarcastically told her to tell her priest to remove any references to the OT in the Liturgy?
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2010, 09:26:11 PM »
As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.

Thanks for making my point. Just I have said all along, the NT is the culmination, clarification, and fulfillment of the OT.

Oh, that was your point was it? So how come, when Riddikulus said exactly the same thing you sarcastically told her to tell her priest to remove any references to the OT in the Liturgy?

I've explained that already. My points have been made clearly. Not much more to add. You will try to find fault with anything I say, so I won't waste time trying to explain myself to you. I state things clearly and unequivocally.

Just as an aside, let me encourage you to seek the positive my brother. There is a lot of light to be enjoyed if you would choose to look for it. But if you keep looking for errors, for wrongs, for negativity and darkness, then you will surely find it. But you'll miss out on lot of positive things. We all find what we look for really.

Selam
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #109 on: January 11, 2010, 09:33:50 PM »

Gebre, do you know what "projection" is in psychology? Its when you project on to others something which you cannot face about yourself. For example:

You will try to find fault with anything I say, so I won't waste time trying to explain myself to you. I state things clearly and unequivocally.
Well Riddikulus said exactly what you said, but you told her to correct her Priest. Is that because you try to find fault with anything she says, even though she states it clearly and unequivocally?

Just as an aside, let me encourage you to seek the positive my brother. There is a lot of light to be enjoyed if you would choose to look for it. But if you keep looking for errors, for wrongs, for negativity and darkness, then you will surely find it. But you'll miss out on lot of positive things. We all find what we look for really.
Follow this advice and you are sure to find peace. But keep pontificating and rolling your eyes at us, and it will elude you forever.
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #110 on: January 11, 2010, 09:37:26 PM »
As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.

Certain terms in the law expand or contract, it happened before Sinai, it happened after Christ. Beware though: much of what is claimed to be change in the OT instruction in the New Testament is actually concerned with the oral torah practices of the Jews.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2010, 09:52:44 PM »
As I asked Ukimeister: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we trust it to point us to Christ?
If the Old Testament is correct, how come Christ changed it in the New Testament?
You have heard that it was said,  ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21), But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. " (Matthew 5:38-41)
The New Testament trumps the Old Testament.

Certain terms in the law expand or contract, it happened before Sinai, it happened after Christ. Beware though: much of what is claimed to be change in the OT instruction in the New Testament is actually concerned with the oral torah practices of the Jews.
Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21 are not "oral torah practices of the Jews", they are the Torah.
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2010, 10:10:53 PM »

Just as an aside, let me encourage you to seek the positive my brother. There is a lot of light to be enjoyed if you would choose to look for it. But if you keep looking for errors, for wrongs, for negativity and darkness, then you will surely find it. But you'll miss out on lot of positive things. We all find what we look for really.
Follow this advice and you are sure to find peace. But keep pontificating and rolling your eyes at us, and it will elude you forever.

This advice is indeed applicable to all of us. Pray for me to practice what I preach.

Selam
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2010, 10:31:01 PM »
Do you agree with my statement, "The knowledge and understanding of God we get from the OT is not incorrect; it is only incomplete"?

No. The knowledge and understanding of God found in the OT is incorrect as a result of it being incomplete.

Then I would say to you what I said to Riddikulus: Inform your Priest that references to the OT should be removed from the DL.

And I would also ask this question: If the OT is incorrect, then how can we rely on it to point us towards Christ?

Selam

We can't rely on it absolutely in and of itself regardless of criticism by the Gospel.

Well, it depends upon that for which we are relying upon it. We can rely upon the Old Testament to instruct us in the knowledge of the existence of One God, and we can rely upon the OT to teach us many important truths about this One God. We can also rely upon the OT to teach us many moral and ethical teachings. But we cannot rely soley upon the OT to instruct us in the matter of eternal salvation or perfect morality.

I would also say that the Gospel does not "criticize" or "critique" the OT; rather it is the clarification, culmination, and fulfillment of it.

Selam

I think numerous depictions of the nature of God in the OT were deficient and can only be interpreted in an acceptable manner in light of the Gospel.

Again I would argue that these depictions are not incorrect or deficient, but rather incomplete. And I would say the same thing for the New Testament. We know more about God through the Gospels, explanatory epistles, and the Apocalypse; but as St. Paul says: "For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." [I Corinthians 13:12]

Selam

So you think God creating a worldwide flood that killed every last man, woman, child, and animal, while leaving only one family of each to live was a sufficient representation of God's actual being?

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2010, 10:53:34 PM »
I'm not trying to take sides in a debate here so as to thereby fuel further contention; just trying to help clear up what seems to be an honest misunderstanding between good persons:

It does not seem to me that GMK in any way contradicted himself. Riddikulus’ comment regarding the NT 'trumping' the OT was made in a context which clearly suggested that she believes it did so in the sense of 'correction'. GMK has clearly, and, in my opinion, rightfully, opposed the idea that the OT was corrected by the NT. He ascents to the vague assertion that the NT 'trumped' the OT insofar, and only insofar, as that means that the OT was fulfilled/completed/perfected by the NT—which is no doubt the sense that the Lord Christ intended his comments relevant to the relationship between the two Covenants, as a patristic and academic analysis of those comments would elucidate.

I think that by suggesting to Riddikulus that use of the OT by the NT Church makes no sense if one were to assume that the OT was false in its presentation of God, GMK was trying to make a valid point. It would certainly make sense for me to publish the Prologue of a certain work upon the completion of that work, but it would be silly for me to publish the rough draft, replete as it is with errors, along with that completed work.
No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus