Author Topic: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.  (Read 18249 times)

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Offline Rafa999

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The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« on: January 10, 2010, 12:53:40 AM »
Leviticus is in the OT, and was written through the distorted filter of the human experience. The only relevance the OT has is to point us towards Christ.


That's garbage. God does not change:

"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Malachi 3:6

The way he instructs us may change, and has several times, but his general will doesn't. I don't believe in the gnostic marcionite "God of the Old Testament" versus "God of the New Testament" thing. God says he doesn't change. We are not Muslims who believe in "progressive revelation". Jesus also said that if we knew him we would know his Father, there is nothing in the OldTestament which Jesus did not do or say.


MODERATION:  Quote prepended to post to provide context, since this thread was split from another  - PtA
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:59:51 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2010, 12:55:06 AM »
In the Assyrian Church that happened up to 100 years ago. By the way, the story on the woman who was an adultress who didn't get stoned is NOT in the Eastern Syriac Peshitta, meaning God hates fornication period.

Do you remove the book of Hosea too?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2010, 12:55:47 AM »
Its not in Eastern Syriac, plus Papias didn't believe in it too.
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2010, 12:56:29 AM »
Quote
The way he instructs us may change, and has several times, but his general will doesn't. I don't believe in the gnostic marcionite "God of the Old Testament" versus "God of the New Testament" thing. God says he doesn't change. We are not Muslims who believe in "progressive revelation". Jesus also said that if we knew him we would know his Father, there is nothing in the New Testament which Jesus did not do or say.

Who is this "we"? Because both Sts. John Chrysostom and Augustine said that the morality of the sermon on the mount was superior to the morality of the mosaic law.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2010, 12:59:44 AM »
The issue is not whether one is a virgin or not.

Please expand on this point.

Given that virginity can be lost within sexual relationships accepted by the Church, whether a potential partner is a virgin or not is not inherently significant.

Yes and no.  It usuallly involves baggage, and the question who is going to carry it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 01:02:36 AM »
Augustine was excommunicated in the COE for introducing original sin and semi-Manichean ideas (anathema has been lifted recently). He was lax on chastity by the way.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 01:03:08 AM »

I'd return my wife if I found out she was not virgin before the marriage. I refuse to accept a lower standard of chastity than mine.

Virginity =/= a standard of chastity

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 01:03:50 AM »
Augustine was excommunicated in the COE for introducing original sin and semi-Manichean ideas (anathema has been lifted recently). He was lax on chastity by the way.

Yeah, St. Augustine was really known for being lax when it comes to sexual matters.

Wait, wat?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 01:04:14 AM »

Question: What would Somebody from the Bible do?

Deplore your system of thought.

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 01:04:59 AM »
Let me re-phrase it:

What would Jesus do?

vs

What would Satan do?
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 01:05:08 AM »

In the Assyrian Church that happened up to 100 years ago. By the way, the story on the woman who was an adultress who didn't get stoned is NOT in the Eastern Syriac Peshitta, meaning God hates fornication period.

That's sickening. But I doubt your church officials would say that they disagree with the meaning of the parable, if they were to be explicitly asked.

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 01:06:03 AM »
Actually I think I might be mistaken on the stoning for adultery. Stoning for other things happened I know for sure though.

Church officials would say it is Greek fiction.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:06:35 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 01:07:22 AM »
That's garbage. God does not change:

"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Malachi 3:6

The way he instructs us may change, and has several times, but his general will doesn't. I don't believe in the gnostic marcionite "God of the Old Testament" versus "God of the New Testament" thing. God says he doesn't change. We are not Muslims who believe in "progressive revelation". Jesus also said that if we knew him we would know his Father, there is nothing in the OldTestament which Jesus did not do or say.



He's not saying that God changes. He's saying that the OT sometimes reflects an inaccurate perception of God. That means that the deficiency is in the people recording it, not in the deity they encountered.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 01:07:54 AM »

Church officials would say it is Greek fiction.

Maybe. But I was talking about the meaning behind it.

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 01:08:22 AM »
Quote
He's saying that the OT sometimes reflects an inaccurate perception of God. That means that the deficiency is in the people recording it, not in the deity they encountered.

The first five books of the bible (the Torah) are God speaking directly so no, that's not true.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:10:20 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2010, 01:09:20 AM »
The issue is not whether one is a virgin or not.

Please expand on this point.

Given that virginity can be lost within sexual relationships accepted by the Church, whether a potential partner is a virgin or not is not inherently significant.

Yes and no.  It usuallly involves baggage, and the question who is going to carry it.

We were talking more so on the level of morality, I believe.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2010, 01:10:23 AM »

The first five books of the Torah are God speaking directly so no, that's not true.

The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2010, 01:11:03 AM »
He wanted perfection. No one is perfect, but we're all striving for perfection. He indeed had a lot of issue he needs to sort out.

All condemnation is from the devil. Never condemn each other. We condemn others only because we shun knowing ourselves. When we gaze at our own failings, we see such a swamp that nothing in another can equal it. That is why we turn away, and make much of the faults of others.

Instead of condemning others, strive to reach inner peace. Keep silent, refrain from judgement. This will raise you above the deadly arrows of slander, insult, and outrage and will shield your glowing hearts against all evil.
St Seraphim of Sarov


Self-centered fear drives people to do many things. Just like Adam in the Garden of Eden our egos divert our attention away from ourselves towards something we think we can control. It's a lot easier to deal with other people's faults instead of our own. We must pray for him and for everyone.


Yours in Christ
Joe
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:12:48 AM by Paisius »

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2010, 01:11:09 AM »
Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:11:28 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2010, 01:11:58 AM »

What would Jesus do?

Seeing as how most believe he never married, I don't know that that is a relevant question.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 01:12:18 AM »
Let me re-phrase it:

What would Jesus do?

vs

What would Satan do?

Hmmm.  Satan accused righteous Job.  Jesus praised the sinful woman who annointed His feet.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2010, 01:12:54 AM »
The Woman who repented.

By the way, because Job was heavy on allegory, Theodore of Mopsuestia and others in the COE for a little time questioned if it was part of the canon.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:13:42 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2010, 01:13:23 AM »

Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.

You're assuming He cares for it to be word for word 100% the same.

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2010, 01:14:02 AM »
Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.

So you think laws such as making a rape victim marry her rapist is from God, and not just some messed up moral idea of men?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2010, 01:15:01 AM »

The Woman who repented.

And how is that inherently any different from the woman we were originally talking about?

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2010, 01:15:44 AM »
Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.

So you think laws such as making a rape victim marry her rapist is from God, and not just some messed up moral idea of men?

Those weren't rape victims, they were women who became widows after wars who needed husbands to take care of them or die. Old semitic custom. You accuse God which is very bad.
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2010, 01:18:37 AM »
Actually no, I wasn't thinking of the story (Deut. 21:10-14) about how God's people could slaughter all the men and babies and whatnot, and take the virgin women as the loot. That one is a fine example of Old Testament morality, but that's not what I was talking about. I was thinking of Deut. 22:28-29:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2010, 01:21:36 AM »
These laws are all misunderstood. Servant girl was translated by some into "slavewoman" in some bibles for example, and singular proceedings against idolatrous baby sacrificing ritual prostitution practicing pagan nations are taken as standard dealings. Also this law you cited is another one of those mistranslated out of context atheist apologetics.
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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2010, 01:23:27 AM »
What is the correct translation and context?

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2010, 01:24:35 AM »
I will have to check, but I bet its only a law on how to deal with a servant girl engaged to somebody as a concubine who has her viriginity taken before the marriage. No big deal. God civilizes people little by little, when Israelites came from Egypt they were still somewhat pagan.
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Offline Paisius

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2010, 01:26:25 AM »
I will have to check, but I bet its only a law on how to deal with a servant girl engaged to somebody as a concubine who has her viriginity taken before the marriage. No big deal. God civilizes people little by little, when Israelites came from Egypt they were still somewhat pagan.

I thought we were under Grace not the law?  ???

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2010, 01:30:40 AM »
I love James 2:18:

Quote
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
KJV

the letter every protestant fears to tread. Luther even tried throwing it out.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2010, 01:31:39 AM »
Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.

""no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son; and He to whomever the Son will reveal Him." (Mt. 11:27) Thus it should be clear that whatever knowledge or understanding of God and His relationship with mankind that one thought to have got from the Old Testament is incorrect. Not only did the Old Testament writers filter the revelation through the matrix of their own passions, but frequently they "transferred" their own thoughts and personalities to their understanding of God. They placed in the mouth of God expressions of their own thoughts and passions. How could they have recorded the history of the Chosen Nation and the revelation given through the prophets in such a distorted manner?? Because no one could know the Father until Jesus Christ revealed Him, and then only to those to whom He chose to reveal Him. Nor could anyone come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, so it is clear that we must read the Old Testament through the revelation of Jesus Christ and understand God as He revealed Himself face to face in the ministry and Gospel of Jesus Christ." - page 3, "The Creation and Fall, by Archbishop Lazar (Puhalo)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2010, 01:35:26 AM »
The Woman who repented.

By the way, because Job was heavy on allegory, Theodore of Mopsuestia and others in the COE for a little time questioned if it was part of the canon.
Tells me more about the reliability of Theodore and the COE than its does on the canonicity of Job.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2010, 01:36:17 AM »

Quote
The first five books are records of a time when God spoke. Records that might not be word for word 100% the same.

He wrote the 613 commands of the Old Testament with his figurative finger on stone, so I disagree.

You're assuming He cares for it to be word for word 100% the same.

The Aramaist supremacist has to believe that.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LBK

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2010, 01:37:27 AM »
The passage from Deuteronomy 22:

᾿Εὰν δέ τις εὕρῃ τὴν παῖδα τὴν παρθένον, ἥτις οὐ μεμνήστευται, καὶ βιασάμενος κοιμηθῇ μετ᾿ αὐτῆς καὶ εὑρεθῇ, 29 δώσει ὁ ἄνθρωπος ὁ κοιμηθεὶς μετ᾿ αὐτῆς τῷ πατρὶ τῆς νεάνιδος πεντήκοντα δίδραχμα ἀργυρίου, καὶ αὐτοῦ ἔσται γυνή, ἀνθ᾿ ὧν ἐταπείνωσεν αὐτήν· οὐ δυνήσεται ἐξαποστεῖλαι αὐτὴν τὸν ἅπαντα χρόνον.

Note the words in bold are parthenos itis ou memnysteutai, which can only be translated as virgin who has not been betrothed. A far cry from your mistaken speculation of
Quote
I will have to check, but I bet its only a law on how to deal with a servant girl engaged to somebody as a concubine who has her viriginity taken before the marriage. No big deal. God civilizes people little by little, when Israelites came from Egypt they were still somewhat pagan.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:39:17 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2010, 01:39:19 AM »
Quote
Tells me more about the reliability of Theodore and the COE than its does on the canonicity of Job.

Tells me a'lot on how cautious the COE is to avoid misuse of allegory (which in the classical rabbinical thought it inherited from only comes after plain scripture). Look at this outrageous anti-scripture bias I am encountering on this thread. Its like people are looking for excuses for premarital sex. Master Theodore was our interpreter, he knew his plain scripture like nobody.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:40:16 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2010, 01:39:57 AM »
Actually no, I wasn't thinking of the story (Deut. 21:10-14) about how God's people could slaughter all the men and babies and whatnot, and take the virgin women as the loot. That one is a fine example of Old Testament morality, but that's not what I was talking about. I was thinking of Deut. 22:28-29:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

Probably has someone like in the OP in mind.  Like David's son Amnon.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2010, 01:41:59 AM »
Quote
Tells me more about the reliability of Theodore and the COE than its does on the canonicity of Job.

Tells me a'lot on how cautious the COE is to avoid misuse of allegory (which in the classical rabbinical thought it inherited from only comes after plain scripture). Look at this outrageous anti-scripture bias I am encountering on this thread. Its like people are looking for excuses for premarital sex.

Really?  I haven't seen one yet.

Quote
Master Theodore was our interpreter, he knew his plain scripture like nobody.

Satan is quite the Bible scholar too. :o

Without allegory, you would have to throw out Hebrews (or have you already done that, with Revelation?) and much of the NT (which, it seems, you have).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 01:44:30 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2010, 01:42:36 AM »
Saying God was wrong in the OT counts as an excuse to me.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2010, 01:45:02 AM »
Saying God was wrong in the OT counts as an excuse to me.

Who said God was wrong in the OT?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2010, 01:48:19 AM »
Saying God was wrong in the OT counts as an excuse to me.

Who said God was wrong in the OT?

Asterkitsos said Gods laws are "sickening".

Also, Nobody in the COE "threw out" Revelation, it didn't REACH the COE. It has a completely different chain of transmission than the first 22 books so COE people are suspicious of the Western 5. Hey, don't blame us, Everybody in the West was suspicious of Revelation when they received it, what about the COE who only encountered this book with British evangelical missionaries in the 19th century? Also, if the story of the adultress is not present in the Eastern Syriac peshitta, it was not present in the bible papias used (nor was Revelations as well).
I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts

Online Asteriktos

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2010, 02:01:05 AM »
Asterkitsos said Gods laws are "sickening".

Wrong person. And I think you might be misunderstanding what the person meant.

Offline Rafa999

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2010, 02:15:58 AM »
OK. Sorry man, I didn't misunderstand though.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The way God instructs us may change, but God Himself does not.
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2010, 02:35:23 AM »
Saying God was wrong in the OT counts as an excuse to me.

Who said God was wrong in the OT?

Asterkitsos said Gods laws are "sickening".

Also, Nobody in the COE "threw out" Revelation, it didn't REACH the COE. It has a completely different chain of transmission than the first 22 books so COE people are suspicious of the Western 5. Hey, don't blame us, Everybody in the West was suspicious of Revelation when they received it, what about the COE who only encountered this book with British evangelical missionaries in the 19th century? Also, if the story of the adultress is not present in the Eastern Syriac peshitta, it was not present in the bible papias used (nor was Revelations as well).

How do you conclude that?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth