Author Topic: Roman Catholics & the Septuagint  (Read 4055 times)

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Offline Jakub

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Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« on: January 02, 2004, 01:33:02 AM »
Why is the Septuagint not used by the Roman Catholic Church for the Old Testament & Psalms ?

Seems odd with the resources at hand why a modern translation was not performed.


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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2004, 09:20:38 AM »
It is.  The Vulagte is St. Jerome's correction of an earlier Latin text (Vetus Itala) that was itself a translation of the Septuagint.  The names of books and Psalm numbering coincide with the Septuagint.

Modern English language Catholic translations use the Hebrew numbering and use the Masoretic and Septuagint texts as the basis for their translation.

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Offline The Caffeinator

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2004, 12:59:29 PM »
IIRC the oldest manuscript of the Old Testament is a Septuagint, and it resides at the Vatican. Codex Sinaiticus? Somebody help me here...

Offline Father Peter

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2004, 01:15:22 PM »
Are any of the more modern RC translations directly-ish related to the Vulgate or are they all based on new scholarship? If so do they take a conservative or modernist line towards the Scriptures?

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Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2004, 01:43:39 PM »
Dear Caffeinator:

The on-line Catholic Encyclopedia treats the
"Septuagint" at:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13722a.htm

Of the 3 most celebrated Latin manuscripts of the Septuagint,  "Codex Vaticanus" appears to be the "oldest," the other 2 being the "Codex Alexandrinus" and Codex Sinaiticus."

AmdG

Offline Br. Max, OFC

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2004, 01:49:39 PM »
PLEASE NOTE:  The Catholic encyclopedia at New Advent is from 1912.  A wonderful resource, but a bit out of date on some things.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2004, 02:21:38 PM »
The oldest manuscript is the Septuagint, it is at the Vatican but it is the Codex Vaticanus.  It is  the oldest (4th century) and considered the purest.  The other extent manuscripts are the Codex Alexandrinus (5th century) in a British Museum and the Codex Sinaiticus not sure who has that.

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Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2004, 02:53:18 PM »
Bro. Max:

I think it is the 15-volume 1913 Edition that is being put on-line, byte by byte, by volunteers.

However, since commencing in 1997, the transcribers have only completed about 25% of the Catholic Encyclopedia.

And, perhaps, after these volunteers have accomplished this formidable task, they will "update" the same?

AmdG

Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2004, 03:22:24 PM »
If the Douay OT & Psalms are good represenatives of the Septuagint why are they ignored in most Orthodox circles ?

Here is another link to the Septuagint online:


http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/

james
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 03:23:28 PM by Jakub »
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2004, 10:20:03 PM »
Jakub,

[If the Douay OT & Psalms are good represenatives of the Septuagint why are they ignored in most Orthodox circles ?]

Good question.  I like the Douay it blows the KJV away.

[The oldest manuscript is the Septuagint, it is at the Vatican but it is the Codex Vaticanus.  It is  the oldest (4th century) and considered the purest]

Dn Lance,
I always get the codices mixed up.  What about the Muratorian Canon which is from the 3rd cent?  Or is the Muratorian just have the NT??

Carpo-Rusyn

Offline moronikos

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2004, 10:51:48 PM »
I prefer the KJV (w/ Apocrypha) to the Douay.  Aren't certain passages like Gen 3:15 botched in the Latin and therefore the Douay?
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Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2004, 12:15:24 AM »
Well nothing's perfect.  The Douay predates the KJV and was produced by a Church under persecution.  Pretty good work if you ask me.  The KJV in it's earliest form that includes what some call the Apocrypha isn't bad.

CR

Offline Linus7

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2004, 01:02:37 AM »
I've been thinking of buying a copy of the Haydock Bible, which is a Douay-Rheims with commentary from the Fathers in the margins.

My local Catholic bookstore has one (it's two volumes, BTW) for $99.

I would get it immediately, but I think the old lady (a term of endearment here in the Shenandoah Valley) would kill me if I spend $99 on another Bible right now!  ;D

Anyone here got a Haydock Bible?

Like it?
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Offline Robert

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2004, 01:06:13 AM »
I have a haydock.

It is a red cover, with separate volumes for both old and new testament.

Is it a decent bible? It is satisfactory.  The foot notes are decent, but nothing comprehensive, and a tad watered down.  if you'd like I could scan a few pages for you to peruse.

Bobby

Offline Linus7

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2004, 01:20:35 AM »
I have a haydock.

It is a red cover, with separate volumes for both old and new testament.

Is it a decent bible? It is satisfactory.  The foot notes are decent, but nothing comprehensive, and a tad watered down.  if you'd like I could scan a few pages for you to peruse.

Bobby

I would appreciate that, Cap'n.

Based on your review above, however, I am not sure I want to plop down $99 for the Haydock.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2004, 01:21:08 AM by Linus7 »
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas

Offline The Caffeinator

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2004, 08:42:03 AM »
Quote
Are any of the more modern RC translations directly-ish related to the Vulgate or are they all based on new scholarship? If so do they take a conservative or modernist line towards the Scriptures?

thanks

Modern Catholic biblical translations tend to take a modernist approach, as seems to be the problem with most modern translations. They always, AFAIK, use masoretic texts as well as some non-Septuagint Greek translations that were discovered, ca., 1870. For the OT they compare with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Once again I'm sure I'm mutilating the facts, so please correct me, anybody.

What does the British Orthodox Church do for a Bible? Personally, I prefer the KJV, with deuterocanonicals. I have run the gamut as far as translations go, my favorite so far is the Third Millenium Bible.

Offline Father Peter

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2004, 09:40:51 AM »
Our bishop prefers us to use the KJV, which we use for the lections in Church. For our own reading I guess a variety of versions are used. Some folk I know prefer the NKJV but His Grace considers it revisionist. This may be because he is Orthodox and the title of the version contains the word 'New'. :)

Looks like I need to look at the TMB with all these recommendations
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Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2004, 10:45:09 AM »
If anyone's interested TAN Books (their on the net) has a concordance for the Douay $35.  They also have the Douay all in 1 volume nice binding too for $55.  It's the size of most other bibles.  The Haydock is rather larger I think (?) is the print larger?

CR

Offline Father Peter

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2004, 02:29:06 PM »
Are there different versions of the Douay? Can I be sure that if I pick up a Douay from abebooks or ebay it will be what I expect?
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Offline Father Peter

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2004, 02:41:14 PM »
Actually I realise now that I have the Douay and Brentons Septaugint translation on my PC as part of Bibleworks.

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Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2004, 03:16:19 PM »
The Douay ( or more accurately the Douay-Rheims) offered by TAN books is the revison made by Bp Challoner, a fellow countryman of yours, 1749-52.  According to the intro by the publishers in my copy Challoner's revisions were just minor changes to make some of the more obscure verses clearer.  The Douay was in use in the states until the 1940's when the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine (CCD) again revised it and this version wa sin use until we were handed the New American Bible or a English trans of the Jerusalem Bible.  Hope that helps.

Carpo-Rusyn

Offline The Caffeinator

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2004, 07:19:37 PM »
I've been tempted to buy the TAN Douay, but I'm leery of TAN books, as my Challoner's ed. of the Imitation of Christ fell apart pretty quickly. (Cheap binding.)

Offline carpo-rusyn

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2004, 07:31:20 PM »
Actually I used to not buy TAN for the same reason.  Recently they've improved their bindings on some of their newer stuff.  The first Douay NT I got from them fell apart after I opened it the first time but a couple months ago I ordered another for a friend and the binding is quite good.  The binding on the Bible with both OT and NT is very good.

Another source for a good NT is Scepter Press (also on the web) they have a pocket NT that's the CCD version (Challoner-Rheims), very handy.  I've also seen their Navarre Bible which they say is a direct translation from the Vulgate but haven't looked at it.  

CR

Offline Linus7

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2004, 11:35:19 PM »
The Douay-Rheims Bibles at my local Catholic bookstore ("Faithful and True," Front Royal, Virginia) look pretty solid and go for $45. I think I might snag one of them (and pay for it, too).

I was really considering buying the two-volume Haydock, but Cap'n Roberto's lukewarm recommendation has put me off the $99+ that would entail.
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Offline Robert

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2004, 11:50:02 PM »
Hey!

Sorry I haven't gotten around to scanning it in, Linus. I will do in the next day or two.

I would definitely hold off on the haydock, it isn't worth 100 bucks.  I regret my purchase, as I never use it.

Bobby

Offline The Caffeinator

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2004, 11:56:56 AM »
The Navarre Bible series by Scepter pubs IIRC correctly uses the RSV-CE. Also, the New Testament pocket edition is a reprint of the Confraternity Bible, which IIRC is not the same as the Challoner-Douay.

But I defer to the greater expertise of the forum.

Offline The Caffeinator

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2004, 11:59:16 AM »

Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2004, 12:07:37 PM »
Capatain Roberto should open bids(OC Net only) on his Haydock if he does not need it.


Or a case of precious RUM,

james
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Robert

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2004, 12:14:22 PM »
LOL,

If you send me a crate of Captain Morgan's RUM, I will gladly send you my Haydocks :)

Of course, I think I'd be getting the better end of the deal.

I personally like my Red Oxford RSV bible, hardcover.  Not the NRSV, which is heretical, but the good ol' fashioned RSV. Anglican? perhaps, but it's nice print.

RSV-CE by Ignatius Press, (blue bible) is also good, even though it is <gasp> ROMAN CATHOLIC.

I don't care much for KJV, hey I don't say thee and thou, and I can't stand the "modern" NIV, or New American variants.

I do have a copy of the Latin Vulgate, which is my main bible.  What can I say, Jerome is the MAN.

Bobby

Offline Robert

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2004, 12:15:32 PM »
Capatain Roberto should open bids(OC Net only) on his Haydock if he does not need it.


Or a case of precious RUM,

james

Obay.com anyone?


Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2004, 12:50:45 PM »
Commander Roberto,

Forget Capt Morgans rum, my welsh bro-inlaw was on the high seas for 40 odd years, there is a special rum, I'll post it after talking to him today.

As for present day bibles, none are perfect.

james


I'll open bids with a pint of Myers Special Reserve.
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline amhalaba

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2004, 06:55:03 PM »
OK...

So I don't check in for two weeks, so I miss the beginning of a bunch of new threads, and when I pop in on the latest posts, you're all frequently discussing SCOTCH!

 :D

Roman Catholics & the Septuagint, indeed!

Is this forum a front for some kind of internet speakeasy?
"To live is to change, and to become perfect is to change often." - John Henry Neumann

Offline amhalaba

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2004, 06:59:29 PM »
I guess it's time to drop my easy Sapphire martini habit, and really work at acquiring a taste for the smelly old brown stuff from across the pond.

Amie, a sinner from way back.
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Offline amhalaba

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Re:Roman Catholics & the Septuagint
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2004, 07:01:55 PM »
Whoops, it's RUM this time... well, at least there's some varying. Scotch was the other thread, Ouzo the one before that, Scotch and more Scotch before that...
"To live is to change, and to become perfect is to change often." - John Henry Neumann