OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 01:16:08 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: In Defense of IPC Against Irish Hermit's Unwarranted Criticism  (Read 10314 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2010, 08:29:33 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.

Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have.

Months ago, when a member of the Zarist Church first came on the Forum.
Goodness! I am an oracle!
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2010, 08:31:06 PM »

Perhaps we could politely ask Fr Anastasios to write about what he knows of the Zarist Church....
Is this "we" the royal plural? You are the only one asking him to do this. Its almost as if you think he is lying.

Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
What exactly are you implying here? Do you think Fr. Anastasios is lying?

I would be very surprised if your question about lying were true.
It's not my question. Its yours. You are the one wanting him to prove what he is saying.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 08:36:04 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2010, 08:32:43 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.

Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have.

Months ago, when a member of the Zarist Church first came on the Forum.
Goodness! I am an oracle!

Indeed you are!  The Oracle of Oz.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2010, 08:37:46 PM »

Perhaps we could politely ask Fr Anastasios to write about what he knows of the Zarist Church....
Is this "we" the royal plural? You are the only one asking him to do this.

Then let it be the pluralis modestatis.

Quote
Its almost as if you think he is lying.

You seem awfully bent, on trying to get someone to say that the good Father is lying.  Nobody else has said that, and certainly, I do not believe it.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2010, 08:41:23 PM »

I do not imagine he has been sworn to secrecy.
We are all sworn to secrecy about our Communion.
"....for I will not speak of Thy Mysteries to Thy enemies, neither will I give the a kiss as did Judas..."
Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2010, 08:47:53 PM »

I do not imagine he has been sworn to secrecy.
We are all sworn to secrecy about our Communion.
"....for I will not speak of Thy Mysteries to Thy enemies, neither will I give the a kiss as did Judas..."
Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 08:50:43 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2010, 08:55:26 PM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2010, 09:01:59 PM »

IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy?

Perhaps I should reword: thrown rocks at all other Orthodoxy, against which even the gates of Hell will not tear down.


Quote
Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble?

His curses on the blessed memory of Pat. Pavle will not touch him whom God has taken to Himself, but God has a definite opinion on those who bad mouth his saints (see Numbers 12), an opinion I share.

Quote
And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
Matthew 18.  I just received that Church's blessing today, from a priest sent by the bishop consecrated by those in succession to those Apostles to whom the Lord spoke those words.  From the information we have on this "Zarist" church, it seems a Protestant self starter.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2010, 09:06:16 PM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
Father Ambrose has been to Communist Europe, and I've been there and in the Muslim world, where there was/is real persecusion.  There is persecusion in the West of traditional Christianity, though I doubt you acknowledge that and IPC hasn't claimed it.  IPC has displayed a martyr's complex, not martyrdom.

Btw, I thinky you down under have caught up with the rest of us, Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 09:07:26 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2010, 09:37:17 PM »

IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy?

Perhaps I should reword: thrown rocks at all other Orthodoxy, against which even the gates of Hell will not tear down.
Then what are you worried about?

Quote
Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble?
His curses on the blessed memory of Pat. Pavle will not touch him whom God has taken to Himself, but God has a definite opinion on those who bad mouth his saints (see Numbers 12), an opinion I share.
Oh great! Just what we need. Another one who is convinced he is doing God's work.
IPC stated (in what is now another thread) that he views Patriarch Pavle as an heretic and explained his reasons why.  Be that as it may, this topic is now split off, so you need to keep that conflict within the other thread. There is actually a forum rule about this (see "Contain Conflict" under the forum rules.)

Quote
And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
Matthew 18.  I just received that Church's blessing today, from a priest sent by the bishop consecrated by those in succession to those Apostles to whom the Lord spoke those words.  From the information we have on this "Zarist" church, it seems a Protestant self starter.
Actually, I think he means the "Tsarist Church" as in the Church of Russia. This term has been used before:
Here's a reference to a "Tsarist Church" which was a museum exhibit in Russia:

http://visualrian.com/images/item/163356

"Tsarist Church. Holy Relics of the Kremlin's Annunciation Cathedral"

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
Father Ambrose has been to Communist Europe, and I've been there and in the Muslim world, where there was/is real persecusion.  There is persecusion in the West of traditional Christianity, though I doubt you acknowledge that and IPC hasn't claimed it.  IPC has displayed a martyr's complex, not martyrdom.
Persecution is persecution no matter who the perpetrator is. St. Nektarios was persecuted by his own Church, deposed and rumours spread about him regarding sexual misconduct.

Btw, I thinky you down under have caught up with the rest of us, Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
Actually, we are ahead of you in time. You have caught up with us. Theophany was yesterday, its now the Synaxis of the Forerunner here (January 7th).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 09:39:05 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,682


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2010, 09:38:41 PM »

IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy?

Perhaps I should reword: thrown rocks at all other Orthodoxy, against which even the gates of Hell will not tear down.
But Jesus did not say that the powers of death would never prevail against some Orthodox jurisdictions while they tear others down.

Quote
Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble?

His curses on the blessed memory of Pat. Pavle will not touch him whom God has taken to Himself, but God has a definite opinion on those who bad mouth his saints (see Numbers 12), an opinion I share.
So IPC has no right to question Patriarch Pavle's sanctity?  Has enough time passed since His Holiness's repose for the Church to properly ascertain his worthiness of glorification?  Yes, I also detest IPC's attacks on the patriarch's memory, but let's not get carried away into rhetoric that implies that His Holiness's sanctity is beyond question.  IPC has posted material to support his accusations of heresy against His Holiness, Patriarch Pavle, and I believe IPC deserves a fair hearing.

Quote
And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
Matthew 18.  I just received that Church's blessing today, from a priest sent by the bishop consecrated by those in succession to those Apostles to whom the Lord spoke those words.  From the information we have on this "Zarist" church, it seems a Protestant self starter.

And we have on this forum priests ordained by bishops consecrated by those in succession to the Apostles who have very likely NOT granted you that authority.  Does your priest trump these other priests?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 09:42:10 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2010, 09:42:22 PM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.

You said: "Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

Really, George, I don't think that my questioning of IPC and my defence of my Church and Patriarch against his accusations amount to such a persecutin that I can be credited with driving an entire Church into the catacombs.  At least, I don't myself believe I can be held responsible for the Zarist Church's catacomb existence.  Do any others think I am responsible?   Shocked
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2010, 09:52:37 PM »


Actually, I think he means the "Tsarist Church" as in the Church of Russia. This term has been used before:
Here's a reference to a "Tsarist Church" which was a museum exhibit in Russia:

http://visualrian.com/images/item/163356

"Tsarist Church. Holy Relics of the Kremlin's Annunciation Cathedral"



The Tsarist Church is the pre-Revolutionary Church of Russia, the Moscow Synodal Church which was ruled not by a Patriarch (he was abolished in 1721 by Tsar Peter) but ruled by a committee of 7 men, one or two bishops, one or two abbots and a few laymen, all appointed by the Tsar and controlled by the Ober-Procurator who was a member of the Tsar's cabinet.

This is most certainly NOT the Zarist Church to which IPC belongs.
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2010, 09:52:57 PM »

If you ask me... in defence of IPC, I can only say that the Moscow Patriarchate was regarded as a splinter "Moscow Patriarchate" (in quotation marks) group by the "Ikumeni" for more than 100 years, until Constantinople fell and it became obvious that the person sitting in the Phanar was no longer telling others what they are and who is who, and until someone paid a certain number of gold and/or silver coins to someone, and, ESPEIALLY, a certain number of Sobol skins to someone... which were even more valuable than the golden coins back then...

This is not to defend the right of this weird "Tsarist Church" to exist, oh no. It's just that the manner, the modus, in which jurisdictions are defined as Orthodox in the past and, alas, the present-day Orthodox Church is... Well...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 09:53:37 PM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2010, 09:55:48 PM »

CONTEXT NOTE:  The following discussion started HERE.  - PtA



My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.


This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.

Why should we be afraid of someone trying to draw us to their church which they are convinced that it is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Orthodox Church of Christ and which very well may be so on an objective level?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,886



« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2010, 09:57:20 PM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.

You said: "Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

Really, George, I don't think that my questioning of IPC and my defence of my Church and Patriarch against his accusations amount to such a persecutin that I can be credited with driving an entire Church into the catacombs.  At least, I don't myself believe I can be held responsible for the Zarist Church's catacomb existence.  Do any others think I am responsible?   Shocked

I think Peter and George are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from criticism, even if such criticism is extreme. There is no question that IPC tends to write inflammatory and extremely offensive (to me at least) posts. Father Ambrose had the right as another poster to condemn IPC's post. He did NOT call for the administrators to censor and expel IPC. I have no idea where Peter and George get their justification to jump on Father Ambrose (and Isa) at the earliest opportunity but they do. BTW, I am not talking about Peter and George as current and former administrators but fellow posters. It just completely blows my mind why Peter and George are so nit picky with everything that Father Ambrose and Isa (and Gebre, to think of it) say. It is not as if Peter and George, like many of us, do not have strong opinions. I just don't get it.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2010, 09:58:22 PM »


I think this interpretation of IPC's word is not what he wanted to tell us.  He simply wanted to say that if we repented and prayed about our Church membership the Lord will show us that we the Orthodox are in heresy and He will lead us to the True Church.

Close, but not quite. He wouldn't say that the Orthodox are in heresy. Rather, he would say that you're not Orthodox.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2010, 09:59:26 PM »


Actually, I think he means the "Tsarist Church" as in the Church of Russia. This term has been used before:
Here's a reference to a "Tsarist Church" which was a museum exhibit in Russia:

http://visualrian.com/images/item/163356

"Tsarist Church. Holy Relics of the Kremlin's Annunciation Cathedral"



The Tsarist Church is the pre-Revolutionary Church of Russia, the Moscow Synodal Church which was ruled not by a Patriarch (he was abolished in 1721 by Tsar Peter) but ruled by a committee of 7 men, one or two bishops, one or two abbots and a few laymen, all appointed by the Tsar and controlled by the Ober-Procurator who was a member of the Tsar's cabinet.

This is most certainly NOT the Zarist Church to which IPC belongs.
Well he certainly seems to disagree with you and thinks he belongs to a continuation of the Tsarist, Patriarch-less Russian Church. A sedevacantist if you will.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2010, 10:01:30 PM »

  Be that as it may, this topic is now split off, so you need to keep that conflict within the other thread. There is actually a forum rule about this (see "Contain Conflict" under the forum rules.)


Quite right, George.   The topic of this thread is "In Defence of IPC"  so all those who are oposed to IPC should shut up.  They are off topic.

This thread is for those defending IPC. 
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2010, 10:04:37 PM »

Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.

Sergianism.... are you saying that an Orthodox priest is infected with heresy?  It kind of eludes me why you say that it is an attempt at humour.  The Russian Churcvh Abroad has always looked upon Sergianism with great alarm.


Sergianism
Sergianism is somewhat more nuanced as a heresy, and finds its origin in the capitulation of Metropolitan Sergius in 1927 to the Soviet state, during which he publicly associated the "sorrows" of the anti-Christian authorities with the suffering of the Church. A definition for Sergianism is at times difficult to clarify, but it has been best defined as the Church submitting to the worldly authorities for the sake of its own survival.

http://trueorthodox.freehostia.com/index.html



I'm afraid that the Zarist Church was Segian ever since Peter I.  So that would leave IPC utterly without grace.

Or ever since Chalcedon.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2010, 10:05:54 PM »

  Be that as it may, this topic is now split off, so you need to keep that conflict within the other thread. There is actually a forum rule about this (see "Contain Conflict" under the forum rules.)


Quite right, George.   The topic of this thread is "In Defence of IPC"  so all those who are oposed to IPC should shut up.  They are off topic.

This thread is for those defending IPC. 
Please, by all means, feel free to attack IPC and his church in this thread. Just don't bring in conflicts from other threads. Having trouble containing conflict Irish Hermit? Try a rubber band around your wrist and flick it every time you get the urge.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,682


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2010, 10:12:38 PM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.

You said: "Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

Really, George, I don't think that my questioning of IPC and my defence of my Church and Patriarch against his accusations amount to such a persecutin that I can be credited with driving an entire Church into the catacombs.  At least, I don't myself believe I can be held responsible for the Zarist Church's catacomb existence.  Do any others think I am responsible?   Shocked

I think Peter and George are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from criticism, even if such criticism is extreme. There is no question that IPC tends to write inflammatory and extremely offensive (to me at least) posts.
And I have already advised IPC to expect harsh criticism if he's going to have the gall to accuse our bishops of heresy.  I'm not going to defend him against criticism I deem warranted.  In fact, I've criticized the idiocy, harsh tone, and borderline-slanderous content of many of his posts myself, so I don't think I'm employing a double standard here.

Father Ambrose had the right as another poster to condemn IPC's post. He did NOT call for the administrators to censor and expel IPC. I have no idea where Peter and George get their justification to jump on Father Ambrose (and Isa) at the earliest opportunity but they do. BTW, I am not talking about Peter and George as current and former administrators but fellow posters. It just completely blows my mind why Peter and George are so nit picky with everything that Father Ambrose and Isa (and Gebre, to think of it) say. It is not as if Peter and George, like many of us, do not have strong opinions. I just don't get it.
Evidence that there's more to these scenarios than your eyes can see. Wink
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 10:14:00 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2010, 10:17:45 PM »

It just completely blows my mind why Peter and George are so nit picky with everything that Father Ambrose and Isa (and Gebre, to think of it) say.
I don't know about Peter, but I enjoy ruffling all your feathers. Smiley
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2010, 10:18:55 PM »

Please, by all means, feel free to attack IPC and his church in this thread.

I am amazed that you are encouraging off topic postings.  I remember your days as a Mod when you sent me several green ink messages and punishments for taking threads off topic.

If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.  What do you think?   Should this be a special privilege of IPC alone or should all members be allowed to follow his example?

Don't get me wrong.  In defence of IPC I am sure that in his home environment he or she is warm and cuddly.   But here on the Forum we seem to knock sparks off him.  Not his fault at all.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2010, 10:20:30 PM »

Please, by all means, feel free to attack IPC and his church in this thread.

I am amazed that you are encouraging off topic postings.
But I thought attacking IPC was the topic. Otherwise, why would he need defending?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2010, 10:24:39 PM »

If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.

Should this be a special privilege of IPC alone or should all members be allowed to follow his example?
By all means, feel free to attack the Orthodox Church and to publicly slander her Bishops.....oh wait....

Don't get me wrong.  In defence of IPC I am sure that in his home environment he or she is warm and cuddly.   But here on the Forum we seem to knock sparks off him.  Not his fault at all.
I have no idea what you are saying here.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2010, 10:30:29 PM »

IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.


Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC. 

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,682


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2010, 10:33:52 PM »

IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.


Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC.  

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. Wink  In fact, why don't I just go ahead and do that.  Everybody hold on for a second.  This ride may get a bit bumpy. Grin
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 10:35:26 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,682


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2010, 10:38:48 PM »

IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.


Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC.  

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. Wink  In fact, why don't I just go ahead and do that.  Everybody hold on for a second.  This ride may get a bit bumpy. Grin
There! Cool  Fixed that problem. Grin
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2010, 10:39:20 PM »

I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. Wink

The man has launched several heavy artillery attacks on two of my Patriarchs.  Do you really think I am going to sit here, on an Orthodox Forum, and smile at him while he bombards them.  The attacking is initiated from IPC's corner.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,682


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2010, 10:41:26 PM »

I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. Wink

The man has launched several heavy artillery attacks on two of my Patriarchs.  Do you really think I am going to sit here, on an Orthodox Forum, and smile at him while he bombards them.
Maybe you should. Wink  Why do they need you to defend them?
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #76 on: January 06, 2010, 10:42:27 PM »

IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.


Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC. 

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.

You have misunderstood in your over excitement. Read again. You said:
If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.
To which I replied:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
What I'm saying is that IPC's position is that his Church is the Orthodox Church, and not yours and not mine. If you want to counter what IPC is saying, you have to question that premise of his. Otherwise, all you end up with is the following:
"We're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"......

I was actually offering you a tip.

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2010, 10:46:04 PM »

Maybe you should. Wink  Why do they need you to defend them?

Right! but do you consider it in order for IPC to attack them?

The thread title has been changed to now attack me, accusing me of "unwarranted" criticism of IPC!    Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?  Since this thread is for the defence of IPC I would welcome defence of his attacks on the Patriarchs.

Hieromonk Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church (Abroad)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 11:00:27 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2010, 10:48:17 PM »

Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?
He thinks they are, and has given reasons why. If you disagree, correct him.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2010, 10:49:24 PM »

IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.


Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC.  

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.

You have misunderstood in your over excitement. Read again. You said:
If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.
To which I replied:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
What I'm saying is that IPC's position is that his Church is the Orthodox Church, and not yours and not mine. If you want to counter what IPC is saying, you have to question that premise of his. Otherwise, all you end up with is the following:
"We're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"......

I was actually offering you a tip.



Thanks.  I don't do tips. laugh

But why should I agree with your assesment of "You're Orthodox, no we are" when I consulted my Metropolitan and was told there is no "Russian Zarist Church."  If you are in doubt, consult your own Church authorities.

In defence of IPC, we would indeed say that he is mighty sincere in his beliefs.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 10:59:57 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2010, 10:58:20 PM »

Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?
He thinks they are, and has given reasons why. If you disagree, correct him.


I cannot correct him in this thread since it is dedicated to the defence of IPC against me and my unwarranted criticisms.  I do not want to derail this thread. This is a thread for defending IPC and attacking me and my unwarranted criticisms.

Hieromonk Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church (Abroad)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 10:59:25 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
IPC
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: RZC
Posts: 308


« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2010, 11:01:29 PM »

I did explain in public the use of the term zarist. The revolutionary authorities started calling the Russian True Orthodox Church, and ROCOR, as zarist. It is not our official title.

We can't conduct an accurate detective work to track down an individual on the internet, unless we have the knowledge and the equipment to do so. There are ways for anonymous surfing, in which a specific software can be used to "bounce" the signal, create a "mask" of your IP address, and connect you to several servers worldwide.

There is persecution in the free world too, ROCOR has been persecuted severely in the west. The Moscow Patriarchate infiltrated people, and created splinter groups that take with them relics, churches, money, etc. 

For instance, in 2001, the MP created in the USA its own ROCOR, formed by infiltrated individuals, like Met. Laurus, Met Hilarion and others, who with the unlimited resources provided by the russian government, left ROCOR taking with them Churches, relics, money, and everything they could.

The violence of the new ROCOR expanded like fire, to France, USA, Canada, Belgium, South America, Australia, and even inside the former USSR.

The attitude of Irish Hermit is typical of the new ROCOR under the Moscow Patriarchate, you can see how they try by all means to annihilate the True Russian Orthodox Christians, that bare witness of their unchristian deeds and teachings.

And you say there is no persecution?

Try being in Church with 20 Irish Hermits, be at the trapeza with them, yelling how "good" it is the MP and that we must join it. Try saying no to them. Try living in the same area with them, having them as work peers, try enjoying a ball with them causing all sort of problems. Have moslems and others done anything to you? Have you been forced to deal with them 24/7?











« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 11:08:02 PM by IPC » Logged

THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,682


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2010, 11:03:33 PM »

Maybe you should. Wink  Why do they need you to defend them?

Right! but do you consider it in order for IPC to attack them?
AISI, IPC has provided information from outside sources to support his accusations.  Why haven't you spent any time questioning the credibility of his sources?  Why haven't you spent any time addressing the content of his sources and shown how they're wrong?  Why are you still so stuck on whether IPC even had the right to level such charges in the first place, even though he could support them with external documents?

The thread title has been changed to now attack me, accusing me of "unwarranted" criticism of IPC!    Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?
IPC seems to think they are, and he has offered documentation to support his grievances.  I therefore don't see any merit in your complaints against IPC, which by definition makes your criticism of IPC unwarranted.

Since this thread is for the defence of IPC I would welcome defence of his attacks on the Patriarchs.
Hasn't he already offered this defense?  What more do you want?

Hieromonk Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church (Abroad)
Okay.  So you're a priest.  What special authority does this grant you on this forum that we should submit to your interpretation of things?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,682


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2010, 11:04:53 PM »

For instance, in 2001, the MP created in the USA its own ROCOR, formed by infiltrated individuals, like Met. Laurus, Met Hilarion and others, who with the unlimited resources provided by the russian government, left ROCOR taking with them Churches, relics, money, and everything they could.
To be fair, can you give us any evidence to support this new allegation?
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,096


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2010, 11:08:22 PM »

For instance, in 2001, the MP created in the USA its own ROCOR, formed by infiltrated individuals, like Met. Laurus, Met Hilarion and others, who with the unlimited resources provided by the russian government, left ROCOR taking with them Churches, relics, money, and everything they could.

Yeah. But the ROCOR under Met. Laurus put their side of the story more eloquently Wink

"Thus, with regret our whole Church has had to endure powerful disturbances hitherto unseen. As if from deep within the bosom of the body of the Church cracks began to appear, though they have not yet developed into deep fissures. We look on with fear as in places they are trying to transform these chinks into rifts which split apart not only the flock, but even the clergy." - Address of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia to Its Flock (2001)
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2010, 11:11:41 PM »

AISI, IPC has provided information from outside sources to support his accusations.  Why haven't you spent any time questioning the credibility of his sources?

I did. I pointed out that his attack on His Holiness Patriarch Kirill is a statement from some Church group (in California?) which I am sure nobody has heard of.   Where's the credibilty?

But we are derailing this thread which was created In Defence of IPC.   We ought to be looking for supporting evidence to show that the anti-Patriarch Kirill statement is from a credible source and deserves our serious attention.  

Hieromonk Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church (Abroad)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 11:15:59 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2010, 11:24:43 PM »

Okay.  So you're a priest.  What special authority does this grant you on this forum that we should submit to your interpretation of things?

I have not asked for submission.   Why would you bring submission into it?

May I ask if this thread now has two foci...

1.  Defence of IPC  and

2.  Assail Irish Hermit and his unwarranted criticism?
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,886



« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2010, 11:29:19 PM »

Now that the subject has been changed, we could start posting for or against either IPC or Father Ambrose, no?

I support Father Ambrose's assertion that IPC was wrong to have invited folks to leave their "false" churches to join his "true" church. There is no need for more evidence here for IPC's own words impeach him.

I agree that IPC slandered two hierarchs without a reasoned argument, backed by facts. There is no need for more evidence to support the charge of slander, The ball is now in IPC's side--to prove his assertions or to admit his error.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2010, 11:30:20 PM »

Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?
He thinks they are, and has given reasons why. If you disagree, correct him.


I cannot correct him in this thread since it is dedicated to the defence of IPC against me and my unwarranted criticisms.  I do not want to derail this thread. This is a thread for defending IPC and attacking me and my unwarranted criticisms.

Then it should be a short thread.  Christ is Born, Father!



Quote
Hieromonk Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church (Abroad)
I'll wait for the "Defense of Irish Hermit's well founded criticism of IPC alleged church and IPC evading response to the same."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2010, 11:35:40 PM »

I support Father Ambrose's
Who cares? I mean really, who cares? Whatever topic there is will always have people on both sides of a debate. What difference does it make to a debate if someone comes forward and says "I support so and so....so there!" This isn't a horse race you know- no one whats to know which horse you are betting on to win. If you have something to contribute, then contribute it. But "I support so and so" is about as useless as a bull's nipples.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 11:36:18 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Tags: Juvenile behavior Meow! SSDD murder 
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.18 seconds with 73 queries.