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Author Topic: In Defense of IPC Against Irish Hermit's Unwarranted Criticism  (Read 9914 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irish Hermit
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« on: January 02, 2010, 01:27:39 AM »

CONTEXT NOTE:  The following discussion started HERE.  - PtA



My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.


This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 09:23:32 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2010, 01:21:37 AM »


My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.


This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.
Actually, I rather like this advice to pray, repent, and sincerely seek God so that we will permit Him to enlighten us.  Isn't this what all Christians should be doing?  Who's to say this will necessarily lead us to leave our churches and join IPC's?  AFAIK, it may lead us to a deeper understanding of IPC's church and why we shouldn't join it.

BTW, Irish Hermit, if you think this post from IPC to be such blatant proselytization, a violation of forum policy, why didn't you report it to the moderators?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 01:23:03 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2010, 02:23:21 AM »


My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.


This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.
Actually, I rather like this advice to pray, repent, and sincerely seek God so that we will permit Him to enlighten us.  Isn't this what all Christians should be doing?  Who's to say this will necessarily lead us to leave our churches and join IPC's?  AFAIK, it may lead us to a deeper understanding of IPC's church and why we shouldn't join it.

I think this interpretation of IPC's word is not what he wanted to tell us.  He simply wanted to say that if we repented and prayed about our Church membership the Lord will show us that we the Orthodox are in heresy and He will lead us to the True Church.

Quote
BTW, Irish Hermit, if you think this post from IPC to be such blatant proselytization, a violation of forum policy, why didn't you report it to the moderators?

Peter, even though I chose the name of Irish Hermit when I joined the Forum many years ago, so long ago I cannot remember why I chose Irish Hermit, I am a priest every moment of my life and in every situation and encounter.  It is my "job" to send a warning signal to the faithful when an invitation to leave the Church is offered, and on an Orthodox Forum by a person who had done nothing but attack the Orthodox Church during his time with us.   And I should not really need to send a warning to the Moderators; it is their mandate to watch over the list and moderate it, to deal with attempts to entice Orthodox people to leave the Church.  By all means, allow a poster to post a few messages critical of Orthodoxy but this person is waging a campaign to take people out of the Church.  I hope this explanation has anwered your question about why I acted as I did; it is my priestly responsibility.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 02:27:11 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2010, 02:53:55 AM »

Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.

Be a man and stop hitting round the bush Irish Hermit. If you have the nerve to attack, be accountable and either back up what you say, or say you're sorry, mean it and stop it right now Smiley

Sorry if I offend anyone with my humour, Christmas is coming, and man I'm happy! That's why I'm in the playful mood now.

Note, I am making it clear I'm fooling round, I'm not name calling anyone.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 03:03:36 AM by IPC » Logged

THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2010, 03:17:44 AM »


My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.


This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.
Actually, I rather like this advice to pray, repent, and sincerely seek God so that we will permit Him to enlighten us.  Isn't this what all Christians should be doing?  Who's to say this will necessarily lead us to leave our churches and join IPC's?  AFAIK, it may lead us to a deeper understanding of IPC's church and why we shouldn't join it.

I think this interpretation of IPC's word is not what he wanted to tell us.  He simply wanted to say that if we repented and prayed about our Church membership the Lord will show us that we the Orthodox are in heresy and He will lead us to the True Church.
So what if this is what he wanted to say?  He didn't actually say this, did he?  Why do you feel the need to read between the lines? Huh  AISI, IPC left his words intentionally vague and open to interpretation in a plethora of different ways.  So we follow his advice...  Undecided  If it backfires against him, what have we lost?

Quote
BTW, Irish Hermit, if you think this post from IPC to be such blatant proselytization, a violation of forum policy, why didn't you report it to the moderators?

Peter, even though I chose the name of Irish Hermit when I joined the Forum many years ago, so long ago I cannot remember why I chose Irish Hermit, I am a priest every moment of my life and in every situation and encounter.  It is my "job" to send a warning signal to the faithful when an invitation to leave the Church is offered, and on an Orthodox Forum by a person who had done nothing but attack the Orthodox Church during his time with us.   And I should not really need to send a warning to the Moderators; it is their mandate to watch over the list and moderate it, to deal with attempts to entice Orthodox people to leave the Church.
But then you're acting on your definition of the Church, which has essentially branded our traditionalist Old Calendarists as schismatic.  This is not conducive to good discussion here, so we essentially don't make any official distinction between churches that call themselves Orthodox with such statements as "this church body is in the Church, but that one is out," nor do we encourage other posters to make such absolute statements without support.  This puts on us the responsibility to defend the rights of all Orthodox Christians who otherwise abide by our rules to discuss whatever issues they would like to discuss with us.  If you don't like the message, feel free to speak your opinion, but don't assert some priestly prerogative to use bully tactics to defend the Church as you know it.

By all means, allow a poster to post a few messages critical of Orthodoxy but this person is waging a campaign to take people out of the Church.  I hope this explanation has anwered your question about why I acted as I did; it is my priestly responsibility.
And it is our administrative responsibility to make sure every poster has the freedom to represent what he believes to be the Orthodox faith.  We're not here to protect the Irish Hermitite Orthodox Church against criticism, so we have no responsibility to act against IPC the way you would like us to act.  Again, feel free to speak your opinion, but if you think IPC is trying to take people away from other jurisdictions into his own, please let the moderators know; don't take the moderation of this forum into your own hands if you don't like the way we do things here.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 03:25:47 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2010, 03:51:01 AM »

Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.

Sergianism.... are you saying that an Orthodox priest is infected with heresy?  It kind of eludes me why you say that it is an attempt at humour.  The Russian Churcvh Abroad has always looked upon Sergianism with great alarm.


Sergianism
Sergianism is somewhat more nuanced as a heresy, and finds its origin in the capitulation of Metropolitan Sergius in 1927 to the Soviet state, during which he publicly associated the "sorrows" of the anti-Christian authorities with the suffering of the Church. A definition for Sergianism is at times difficult to clarify, but it has been best defined as the Church submitting to the worldly authorities for the sake of its own survival.

http://trueorthodox.freehostia.com/index.html

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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2010, 03:58:44 AM »

But then you're acting on your definition of the Church, which has essentially branded our traditionalist Old Calendarists as schismatic.  
 

I have no information that the Zarist Church is an Old Calendarist group and there is no connection between what I am saying about it and Old Calendarist Churches. 

If anybody is in doubt as to the status of the Zarist Church within Orthodoxy the best recourse is to consult your priest or your bishop.

I beiefly mentioned the Zarists to my Metropolitan when he was visiting.  He said he has not heard of this Church and it is not an Orthodox Church. 
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2010, 04:07:38 AM »

 If you don't like the message, feel free to speak your opinion, but don't assert some priestly prerogative to use bully tactics to defend the Church as you know it.


I have spoken not my opinion but the truth.  Encouraging people to leave the salvific enclosure of the Church is endangering their salvation.  It is not "bully tactics" to make this clear to the Orthodox whether the warning comes from an Orthodox priest or any Orthodox layperson.  You see this as an exercise of "priestly prerogative"; I see it as exercising priestly responsibility and something which I shall answer for on the last Day before the Saviour.

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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2010, 04:20:45 AM »


But then you're acting on your definition of the Church, which has essentially branded our traditionalist Old Calendarists as schismatic.  This is not conducive to good discussion here, so we essentially don't make any official distinction between churches that call themselves Orthodox with such statements as "this church body is in the Church, but that one is out," nor do we encourage other posters to make such absolute statements without support.

Then please allow an official supporting statement to be presented from all the canonical Orthodox Churches.  Of course they are not specific about those whom they are calling schismatic and extremist and they may or may not be including any True Old Calendarist Churches.   But there is no doubt they are certainly judging some Churches to be schismatic and extremist.  We need to ask our bishops to clarify this for us, just what groups and Churches do they judge as schismatic?

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/wcc-programmes/ecumenical-movement-in-the-21st-century/member-churches/special-commission-on-participation-of-orthodox-churches/first-plenary-meeting-documents-december-1999/05-98-thessaloniki-statement.html

1. We delegates of all the canonical Orthodox Churches, by the power of the Risen Christ, gathered at the historical city of Thessaloniki, Greece from 29 April to 2 May 1998, after an invitation of His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, responding to the initiative of the Russian and Serbian Churches...

4. The delegates unanimously denounced those groups of schismatics, as well as certain extremist groups within the local Orthodox Churches themselves, that are using the theme of ecumenism in order to criticize the Church leadership and undermine its authority, thus attempting to create divisions and schisms within the Church. They also use non-factual material and misinformation in order to support their unjust criticism.
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2010, 04:50:44 AM »


But then you're acting on your definition of the Church, which has essentially branded our traditionalist Old Calendarists as schismatic.  This is not conducive to good discussion here, so we essentially don't make any official distinction between churches that call themselves Orthodox with such statements as "this church body is in the Church, but that one is out," nor do we encourage other posters to make such absolute statements without support.

Then please allow an official supporting statement to be presented from all the canonical Orthodox Churches.  Of course they are not specific about those whom they are calling schismatic and extremist and they may or may not be including any True Old Calendarist Churches.   But there is no doubt they are certainly judging some Churches to be schismatic and extremist.  We need to ask our bishops to clarify this for us, just what groups and Churches do they judge as schismatic?
So, what do you want us to do with this information?  Do you want us to kowtow to this body's definitions of "canonical" and "schismatic" in our administration of this forum?  What of those of our admins and moderators who are not in those churches deemed canonical?
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2010, 05:13:17 AM »

 If you don't like the message, feel free to speak your opinion, but don't assert some priestly prerogative to use bully tactics to defend the Church as you know it.


I have spoken not my opinion but the truth.  Encouraging people to leave the salvific enclosure of the Church is endangering their salvation.
I don't disagree with this.  But that's not my point.

It is not "bully tactics" to make this clear to the Orthodox whether the warning comes from an Orthodox priest or any Orthodox layperson.  You see this as an exercise of "priestly prerogative"; I see it as exercising priestly responsibility and something which I shall answer for on the last Day before the Saviour.
The problem, though, is not that you see it necessary to speak against anyone who, in your perception, is trying to draw people away from the Church.  The problem is that you have defined the boundaries of the Church, proclaimed that some specific members of this forum are outside the Church as you have defined it, and have even branded some of them enemies of the Church.  Having done all this, you have then launched campaigns against these "enemies" to try to have them silenced or bully them into silence yourself.

Need I point out how detrimental this is to free discussion on this forum?  This forum is not here to make sure that only one definition of the Church is proclaimed as Orthodox while we condemn all others.  This is a place for open discussion and exchange of beliefs, some of which you will find agreeable and some of which you will not find so agreeable.  Again, if you don't agree with another person's point of view, feel free to express your opinion and offer cogent arguments in your favor.  But don't try to bully Orthodox of other "non-canonical" jurisdictions into silence because you think them enemies of the Church trying to draw the faithful into schism.
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2010, 05:24:24 AM »


But then you're acting on your definition of the Church, which has essentially branded our traditionalist Old Calendarists as schismatic.  This is not conducive to good discussion here, so we essentially don't make any official distinction between churches that call themselves Orthodox with such statements as "this church body is in the Church, but that one is out," nor do we encourage other posters to make such absolute statements without support.

Then please allow an official supporting statement to be presented from all the canonical Orthodox Churches.  Of course they are not specific about those whom they are calling schismatic and extremist and they may or may not be including any True Old Calendarist Churches.   But there is no doubt they are certainly judging some Churches to be schismatic and extremist.  We need to ask our bishops to clarify this for us, just what groups and Churches do they judge as schismatic?
So, what do you want us to do with this information?


You may use it as you please of course.  I was only responding to your  "nor do we encourage other posters to make such absolute statements without support"  and offering the desired support from a pan-Orthodox statement.

Quote
  Do you want us to kowtow to this body's definitions of "canonical" and "schismatic" in our administration of this forum?
 

My eyebrows are somewhat raised at the thought of an Orthodox person speaking of "kowtowing" to an official statement issued by "this body" [sic].   Whether one is in the canonical Churches of the Orthodox world or in one of the True Orthodox Churches one would expect some deference to their respective official statements.
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2010, 05:29:43 AM »

Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.

Be a man and stop hitting round the bush Irish Hermit. If you have the nerve to attack, be accountable and either back up what you say, or say you're sorry, mean it and stop it right now Smiley

Sorry if I offend anyone with my humour, Christmas is coming, and man I'm happy! That's why I'm in the playful mood now.

Note, I am making it clear I'm fooling round, I'm not name calling anyone.
I don't believe that you have as of yet met Fr. Ambrose's challenge, and named the nonexistant bishops for whom we should abandon our real bishops.
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2010, 05:32:48 AM »

Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.

Sergianism.... are you saying that an Orthodox priest is infected with heresy?  It kind of eludes me why you say that it is an attempt at humour.  The Russian Churcvh Abroad has always looked upon Sergianism with great alarm.


Sergianism
Sergianism is somewhat more nuanced as a heresy, and finds its origin in the capitulation of Metropolitan Sergius in 1927 to the Soviet state, during which he publicly associated the "sorrows" of the anti-Christian authorities with the suffering of the Church. A definition for Sergianism is at times difficult to clarify, but it has been best defined as the Church submitting to the worldly authorities for the sake of its own survival.

http://trueorthodox.freehostia.com/index.html



I'm afraid that the Zarist Church was Segian ever since Peter I.  So that would leave IPC utterly without grace.
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2010, 05:37:42 AM »

[The problem, though, is not that you see it necessary to speak against anyone who, in your perception, is trying to draw people away from the Church.  The problem is that you have defined the boundaries of the Church,
 

As an Orthodox priest I am aware of the boundaries of the Church as defined by my bishops.

I dio not see why this would iritate you.  Surely your bishops are also able to define the boundaries of the Orthodox Church?   Fior example, Fr Anastasios' Church and nearly all the Old Calendarist Churches say that my Church and all the Churches of "world Orthodoxy" are NOT the Church and do not have the Holy Mysteries.  For them we are the unChurch.   IPC has also said this in a myriad of ways.  I find it offensive that he says so.

Quote
proclaimed that some specific members of this forum are outside the Church as you have defined it, and have even branded some of them enemies of the Church.

Not "as I have defined it" but as the Church defines it.

I have noticed that this is a permanent theme of what IPC writes but he is not upbraided for it.

 
Quote
Need I point out how detrimental this is to free discussion on this forum?  This forum is not here to make sure that only one definition of the Church is proclaimed as Orthodox while we condemn all others.

Yet this is what IPC does over and over.     

Quote
But don't try to bully Orthodox of other "non-canonical" jurisdictions into silence because you think them enemies of the Church trying to draw the faithful into schism.

I have watched in horror as IPC has badmouthed the newly reposed holy Patriarch Pavle and labelled him an enemy of the Church.   He is now labelling me as a Sergianist, and that puts me outside the Church and in the camp of the Church's enemies.
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2010, 05:40:00 AM »

My eyebrows are somewhat raised at the thought of an Orthodox person speaking of "kowtowing" to an official statement issued by "this body" [sic].   Whether one is in the canonical Churches of the Orthodox world or in one of the True Orthodox Churches one would expect some deference to their respective official statements.
Why?  What makes the statements "official"?
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2010, 05:50:23 AM »

My eyebrows are somewhat raised at the thought of an Orthodox person speaking of "kowtowing" to an official statement issued by "this body" [sic].   Whether one is in the canonical Churches of the Orthodox world or in one of the True Orthodox Churches one would expect some deference to their respective official statements.
Why?  What makes the statements "official"?

If you refer to the Statement which I linked, it was issued by "all the canonical Orthodox Churches" at a pan-Orthodox meeting in Thessaloniki.

If that is not adequate, would you set out the criteria you desire before you accept a Statement as official?

Do you accept the OP Statement as "official"?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 05:51:31 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2010, 09:22:40 AM »

My eyebrows are somewhat raised at the thought of an Orthodox person speaking of "kowtowing" to an official statement issued by "this body" [sic].   Whether one is in the canonical Churches of the Orthodox world or in one of the True Orthodox Churches one would expect some deference to their respective official statements.
Why?  What makes the statements "official"?

If you refer to the Statement which I linked, it was issued by "all the canonical Orthodox Churches" at a pan-Orthodox meeting in Thessaloniki.

If that is not adequate, would you set out the criteria you desire before you accept a Statement as official?
Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

Do you accept the OP Statement as "official"?
Why does it matter if I do or not?
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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2010, 09:27:57 AM »

 
Quote
Need I point out how detrimental this is to free discussion on this forum?  This forum is not here to make sure that only one definition of the Church is proclaimed as Orthodox while we condemn all others.

Yet this is what IPC does over and over.
Yet he provides supporting statements and has not shown any desire to see his opponents silenced.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 01:06:16 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2010, 01:45:57 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 01:46:21 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2010, 02:22:03 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2010, 02:31:41 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
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« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2010, 03:57:49 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.
World Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2010, 04:01:29 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
We have yet, as far as I have seen, seen any proof that this "Zarist Orthodox Church" is Orthodox at all.  This is in contrast, for instance, with Fr. Ambrose, Fr. Cleveland, Fr. Anastosios, etc.  We know who is Salpy's Catholicos, we know who Ekhsristos Anesti's Pope is.  But it seems this "Zarist" church has a decidely Protestant make up, and hence, not Orthodox at all.
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« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2010, 07:06:36 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
Yes, I know.  But why would you suggest that the Forum should formally embrace an official definition of Orthodoxy and the Church that would in essence permit us to silence any poster you deem a threat?
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« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2010, 07:12:29 PM »

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

Hmmm...I don't think anyone wants OC.net to fall under one jurisdiction of bishops. But the type you have placed in bold sounds almost like a protestant form of independence. So no priest who comes to this forum has a right to warn others when wolves come on the forum to confuse the faithful? That sounds a little like censorship to me.
This site already has enough atheists on it who have confused Orthodox inquirers to join them.
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« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2010, 07:15:31 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
We have yet, as far as I have seen, seen any proof that this "Zarist Orthodox Church" is Orthodox at all.  This is in contrast, for instance, with Fr. Ambrose, Fr. Cleveland, Fr. Anastosios, etc.  We know who is Salpy's Catholicos, we know who Ekhsristos Anesti's Pope is.  But it seems this "Zarist" church has a decidely Protestant make up, and hence, not Orthodox at all.
Yes, that disturbs me as well.  I do wish that IPC would just tell us what his jurisdiction is, who his bishop is, just as a common courtesy to those who would like to know.  I find it unsettling that he would make such a point of hiding behind the veil of anonymity as he has.  However, until he does tell us more about his church, all we have is his claim that he is Orthodox.  I am therefore inclined to grant him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is a member of a traditionalist Orthodox jurisdiction at enmity with Moscow as he says he is, and I recommend that you do the same.
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« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2010, 07:24:12 PM »

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

Hmmm...I don't think anyone wants OC.net to fall under one jurisdiction of bishops. But the type you have placed in bold sounds almost like a protestant form of independence.
How so?

So no priest who comes to this forum has a right to warn others when wolves come on the forum to confuse the faithful? That sounds a little like censorship to me.
But this isn't about a priest warning others of the "wolves" in our midst, Tamara.  This is about one priest's apparent desire to see someone censored as a threat to his established order.

This site already has enough atheists on it who have confused Orthodox inquirers to join them.
So are you suggesting that we should silence all atheists?
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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2010, 07:26:17 PM »

This site already has enough atheists on it who have confused Orthodox inquirers to join them.
Thats a pretty hefty claim. Can you back it up?
Who, apart from GiC claims to be an atheist? And who has joined him?

So no priest who comes to this forum has a right to warn others when wolves come on the forum to confuse the faithful?
Why do you need a priest to do it? Are they oracles or something? This is a discussion forum. If someone makes a false claim, someone quotes the Fathers to point out the error. It doesn't have to be a Priest. You have to get over this guru worship thing.
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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2010, 07:30:20 PM »

As I've stated before, last time I checked, IPC was under one of the bishops of a non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction. As to why he doesn't just come out and say which jurisdiction that is and who his bishop is, is something he can best explain himself.
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« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2010, 07:36:06 PM »

As I've stated before, last time I checked, IPC was under one of the bishops of a non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction. As to why he doesn't just come out and say which jurisdiction that is and who his bishop is, is something he can best explain himself.

Ooo! Ooo! Can I hazard a guess as to why he doesn't say it himself? Because of the very types of attacks he's received from posters on the forum because of his jurisdiction, including attempts to discredit him because of it.
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« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2010, 07:39:58 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
Yes, I know.  But why would you suggest that the Forum should formally embrace an official definition of Orthodoxy and the Church that would in essence permit us to silence any poster you deem a threat?

Dear Peter,

I have not suggested anything of the sort.  I heartily dislike IPC's unrelenting campaign against the Orthodox Church on the world's largest Orthodox Forum.  One or two anti-Orthodox messages would be acceptable but a flood of them....?  They cause scandal, they harm the weaker brethren, they cause confusion among those enquiring into the Faith.

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« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2010, 07:40:36 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
We have yet, as far as I have seen, seen any proof that this "Zarist Orthodox Church" is Orthodox at all.  This is in contrast, for instance, with Fr. Ambrose, Fr. Cleveland, Fr. Anastosios, etc.  We know who is Salpy's Catholicos, we know who Ekhsristos Anesti's Pope is.  But it seems this "Zarist" church has a decidely Protestant make up, and hence, not Orthodox at all.
Yes, that disturbs me as well.  I do wish that IPC would just tell us what his jurisdiction is, who his bishop is, just as a common courtesy to those who would like to know.  I find it unsettling that he would make such a point of hiding behind the veil of anonymity as he has.  However, until he does tell us more about his church, all we have is his claim that he is Orthodox.  I am therefore inclined to grant him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is a member of a traditionalist Orthodox jurisdiction at enmity with Moscow as he says he is, and I recommend that you do the same.
Uh, no.
I understand why you might be so inclined/have to be so inclined on this/moderating this board to not dealve too deeply at the bald claim "Orthodox," but the rule has always been on Baptism, Marriage, Ordination, Consecration etc. don't assume, some proof must be provided.

One can be a traditionalist Orthodox jurisdiction against the PoM, as several of the ROCORettes show, but they actually have bishops etc. who stick their faces out and say their piece against the PoM accusing him of cowing to the authorities.  But bishops, if they exist, cowering from non-existent persecusion (as is the case in the West) in the dark while they accuse the bishops who carried the burden of millions of souls-and lives-under the Soviets...such are not worthy of any credence.

And somehow Fr. Anastasios manages to present his case without banging the same note, and defend/present Orthodoxy as he sees it without harping on Orthodox who disagree.  IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
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« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2010, 07:46:46 PM »

But this isn't about a priest warning others of the "wolves" in our midst, Tamara.

That is however how I see it.

Quote
This is about one priest's apparent desire to see someone censored as a threat to his established order.

An incorrect understanding of my motivation.    Please look in my previous messages.

P.S.  Do you perceive the Zarists as a threat to the established order of the Russian Orthoodx Church?  In what way?
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« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2010, 07:47:11 PM »

IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy? Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble? And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
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« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2010, 07:49:00 PM »

As I've stated before, last time I checked, IPC was under one of the bishops of a non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction.

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
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« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2010, 07:50:26 PM »

But this isn't about a priest warning others of the "wolves" in our midst, Tamara.

That is however how I see it.

Welcome to irishhermit.net.
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« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2010, 07:52:23 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
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« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2010, 07:59:56 PM »

And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions?

A priest most certainly has the authority, and the duty, to uphold the Orthodox Churches (jurisdictions as the Americans say) and to point out the dangers to the faithful when the integrity of the Church is attacked, more so when the purpose of the attack is to weaken and destroy faith in the Church.

This thread commences with an attack on my Patriarch in a statement issued by 3 or 4 bishops of a Church of which I have never heard.  Should a priest smile and roll over?  Allow his Patriarch to be denigrated?
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« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2010, 08:00:12 PM »

Tamara,

Quote
This site already has enough atheists on it who have confused Orthodox inquirers to join them.

I don't know if you were partly thinking of me when you said this, but since GiC is the only other regular poster I know who has claimed to be an atheist over the past half dozen years, I'll say a few things just in case. I became an atheist in early Jan. of 2006. It was not because of the influence of any atheists, and certainly none here on OC.net, that this happened, and I believe this predated GiC's own turn towards atheism. Since around May of 2008, I have not identified as an atheist. Since then I've sometimes identified as agnostic, sometimes deist, sometimes Orthodox, and sometimes I'm not sure, but whatever the case, not atheist. And if it puts your mind at ease any, during my time here, no one has contacted me and said something like "I think I'm gonna consider becoming an atheist now". Some members here have indeed left Orthodoxy, but I think GiC is the only regular member or even newbie inquirer who has become and remained an atheist, and even in his case I very much doubt that anyone here led him into it or confused him.
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« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2010, 08:02:08 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.

Have you googled Zarist Church then?  Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2010, 08:17:57 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.

Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have. I'm an oracle you see.

Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
My Archbishop didn't know the Synod in Resistance and the Matthewites in Australia were different jurisdictions either. To him they were just "Paleoemerologites". If bishops are not in communion, why would they know about one another?
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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2010, 08:24:59 PM »

Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
What exactly are you implying here? Do you think Fr. Anastasios is lying?
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« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2010, 08:26:03 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.

Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have.

Months ago, when a member of the Zarist Church first came on the Forum.

Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.
   
Quote
My Archbishop didn't know the Synod in Resistance and the Matthewites in Australia were different jurisdictions either. To him they were just "Paleoemerologites". If bishops are not in communion, why would they know about one another?

My Metropolitan is the Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and has an intimate and often first-hand knowledge of the ROCOR splinter groups and their bishops.   Prior to becoming Metropolitan he already had an encyclopaedic knowledge of Orthodox vagante groups; it is one of his interests.
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« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2010, 08:29:09 PM »

Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
What exactly are you implying here? Do you think Fr. Anastasios is lying?

I would be very surprised if your question about lying were true.  In fact I would be sure it is not.

Perhaps we could politely ask Fr Anastasios to write about what he knows of the Zarist Church.... I do not imagine he has been sworn to secrecy.
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« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2010, 08:29:33 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.

Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have.

Months ago, when a member of the Zarist Church first came on the Forum.
Goodness! I am an oracle!
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« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2010, 08:31:06 PM »

Perhaps we could politely ask Fr Anastasios to write about what he knows of the Zarist Church....
Is this "we" the royal plural? You are the only one asking him to do this. Its almost as if you think he is lying.

Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
What exactly are you implying here? Do you think Fr. Anastasios is lying?

I would be very surprised if your question about lying were true.
It's not my question. Its yours. You are the one wanting him to prove what he is saying.
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« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2010, 08:32:43 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.

Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have.

Months ago, when a member of the Zarist Church first came on the Forum.
Goodness! I am an oracle!

Indeed you are!  The Oracle of Oz.
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« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2010, 08:37:46 PM »

Perhaps we could politely ask Fr Anastasios to write about what he knows of the Zarist Church....
Is this "we" the royal plural? You are the only one asking him to do this.

Then let it be the pluralis modestatis.

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Its almost as if you think he is lying.

You seem awfully bent, on trying to get someone to say that the good Father is lying.  Nobody else has said that, and certainly, I do not believe it.
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« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2010, 08:41:23 PM »

I do not imagine he has been sworn to secrecy.
We are all sworn to secrecy about our Communion.
"....for I will not speak of Thy Mysteries to Thy enemies, neither will I give the a kiss as did Judas..."
Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.
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« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2010, 08:47:53 PM »

I do not imagine he has been sworn to secrecy.
We are all sworn to secrecy about our Communion.
"....for I will not speak of Thy Mysteries to Thy enemies, neither will I give the a kiss as did Judas..."
Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  
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« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2010, 08:55:26 PM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
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« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2010, 09:01:59 PM »

IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy?

Perhaps I should reword: thrown rocks at all other Orthodoxy, against which even the gates of Hell will not tear down.


Quote
Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble?

His curses on the blessed memory of Pat. Pavle will not touch him whom God has taken to Himself, but God has a definite opinion on those who bad mouth his saints (see Numbers 12), an opinion I share.

Quote
And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
Matthew 18.  I just received that Church's blessing today, from a priest sent by the bishop consecrated by those in succession to those Apostles to whom the Lord spoke those words.  From the information we have on this "Zarist" church, it seems a Protestant self starter.
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« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2010, 09:06:16 PM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
Father Ambrose has been to Communist Europe, and I've been there and in the Muslim world, where there was/is real persecusion.  There is persecusion in the West of traditional Christianity, though I doubt you acknowledge that and IPC hasn't claimed it.  IPC has displayed a martyr's complex, not martyrdom.

Btw, I thinky you down under have caught up with the rest of us, Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
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« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2010, 09:37:17 PM »

IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy?

Perhaps I should reword: thrown rocks at all other Orthodoxy, against which even the gates of Hell will not tear down.
Then what are you worried about?

Quote
Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble?
His curses on the blessed memory of Pat. Pavle will not touch him whom God has taken to Himself, but God has a definite opinion on those who bad mouth his saints (see Numbers 12), an opinion I share.
Oh great! Just what we need. Another one who is convinced he is doing God's work.
IPC stated (in what is now another thread) that he views Patriarch Pavle as an heretic and explained his reasons why.  Be that as it may, this topic is now split off, so you need to keep that conflict within the other thread. There is actually a forum rule about this (see "Contain Conflict" under the forum rules.)

Quote
And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
Matthew 18.  I just received that Church's blessing today, from a priest sent by the bishop consecrated by those in succession to those Apostles to whom the Lord spoke those words.  From the information we have on this "Zarist" church, it seems a Protestant self starter.
Actually, I think he means the "Tsarist Church" as in the Church of Russia. This term has been used before:
Here's a reference to a "Tsarist Church" which was a museum exhibit in Russia:

http://visualrian.com/images/item/163356

"Tsarist Church. Holy Relics of the Kremlin's Annunciation Cathedral"

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
Father Ambrose has been to Communist Europe, and I've been there and in the Muslim world, where there was/is real persecusion.  There is persecusion in the West of traditional Christianity, though I doubt you acknowledge that and IPC hasn't claimed it.  IPC has displayed a martyr's complex, not martyrdom.
Persecution is persecution no matter who the perpetrator is. St. Nektarios was persecuted by his own Church, deposed and rumours spread about him regarding sexual misconduct.

Btw, I thinky you down under have caught up with the rest of us, Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
Actually, we are ahead of you in time. You have caught up with us. Theophany was yesterday, its now the Synaxis of the Forerunner here (January 7th).
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« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2010, 09:38:41 PM »

IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy?

Perhaps I should reword: thrown rocks at all other Orthodoxy, against which even the gates of Hell will not tear down.
But Jesus did not say that the powers of death would never prevail against some Orthodox jurisdictions while they tear others down.

Quote
Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble?

His curses on the blessed memory of Pat. Pavle will not touch him whom God has taken to Himself, but God has a definite opinion on those who bad mouth his saints (see Numbers 12), an opinion I share.
So IPC has no right to question Patriarch Pavle's sanctity?  Has enough time passed since His Holiness's repose for the Church to properly ascertain his worthiness of glorification?  Yes, I also detest IPC's attacks on the patriarch's memory, but let's not get carried away into rhetoric that implies that His Holiness's sanctity is beyond question.  IPC has posted material to support his accusations of heresy against His Holiness, Patriarch Pavle, and I believe IPC deserves a fair hearing.

Quote
And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
Matthew 18.  I just received that Church's blessing today, from a priest sent by the bishop consecrated by those in succession to those Apostles to whom the Lord spoke those words.  From the information we have on this "Zarist" church, it seems a Protestant self starter.

And we have on this forum priests ordained by bishops consecrated by those in succession to the Apostles who have very likely NOT granted you that authority.  Does your priest trump these other priests?
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« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2010, 09:42:22 PM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.

You said: "Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

Really, George, I don't think that my questioning of IPC and my defence of my Church and Patriarch against his accusations amount to such a persecutin that I can be credited with driving an entire Church into the catacombs.  At least, I don't myself believe I can be held responsible for the Zarist Church's catacomb existence.  Do any others think I am responsible?   Shocked
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« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2010, 09:52:37 PM »


Actually, I think he means the "Tsarist Church" as in the Church of Russia. This term has been used before:
Here's a reference to a "Tsarist Church" which was a museum exhibit in Russia:

http://visualrian.com/images/item/163356

"Tsarist Church. Holy Relics of the Kremlin's Annunciation Cathedral"



The Tsarist Church is the pre-Revolutionary Church of Russia, the Moscow Synodal Church which was ruled not by a Patriarch (he was abolished in 1721 by Tsar Peter) but ruled by a committee of 7 men, one or two bishops, one or two abbots and a few laymen, all appointed by the Tsar and controlled by the Ober-Procurator who was a member of the Tsar's cabinet.

This is most certainly NOT the Zarist Church to which IPC belongs.
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« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2010, 09:52:57 PM »

If you ask me... in defence of IPC, I can only say that the Moscow Patriarchate was regarded as a splinter "Moscow Patriarchate" (in quotation marks) group by the "Ikumeni" for more than 100 years, until Constantinople fell and it became obvious that the person sitting in the Phanar was no longer telling others what they are and who is who, and until someone paid a certain number of gold and/or silver coins to someone, and, ESPEIALLY, a certain number of Sobol skins to someone... which were even more valuable than the golden coins back then...

This is not to defend the right of this weird "Tsarist Church" to exist, oh no. It's just that the manner, the modus, in which jurisdictions are defined as Orthodox in the past and, alas, the present-day Orthodox Church is... Well...
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« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2010, 09:55:48 PM »

CONTEXT NOTE:  The following discussion started HERE.  - PtA



My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.


This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.

Why should we be afraid of someone trying to draw us to their church which they are convinced that it is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Orthodox Church of Christ and which very well may be so on an objective level?
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« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2010, 09:57:20 PM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.

You said: "Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

Really, George, I don't think that my questioning of IPC and my defence of my Church and Patriarch against his accusations amount to such a persecutin that I can be credited with driving an entire Church into the catacombs.  At least, I don't myself believe I can be held responsible for the Zarist Church's catacomb existence.  Do any others think I am responsible?   Shocked

I think Peter and George are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from criticism, even if such criticism is extreme. There is no question that IPC tends to write inflammatory and extremely offensive (to me at least) posts. Father Ambrose had the right as another poster to condemn IPC's post. He did NOT call for the administrators to censor and expel IPC. I have no idea where Peter and George get their justification to jump on Father Ambrose (and Isa) at the earliest opportunity but they do. BTW, I am not talking about Peter and George as current and former administrators but fellow posters. It just completely blows my mind why Peter and George are so nit picky with everything that Father Ambrose and Isa (and Gebre, to think of it) say. It is not as if Peter and George, like many of us, do not have strong opinions. I just don't get it.
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« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2010, 09:58:22 PM »


I think this interpretation of IPC's word is not what he wanted to tell us.  He simply wanted to say that if we repented and prayed about our Church membership the Lord will show us that we the Orthodox are in heresy and He will lead us to the True Church.

Close, but not quite. He wouldn't say that the Orthodox are in heresy. Rather, he would say that you're not Orthodox.
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« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2010, 09:59:26 PM »


Actually, I think he means the "Tsarist Church" as in the Church of Russia. This term has been used before:
Here's a reference to a "Tsarist Church" which was a museum exhibit in Russia:

http://visualrian.com/images/item/163356

"Tsarist Church. Holy Relics of the Kremlin's Annunciation Cathedral"



The Tsarist Church is the pre-Revolutionary Church of Russia, the Moscow Synodal Church which was ruled not by a Patriarch (he was abolished in 1721 by Tsar Peter) but ruled by a committee of 7 men, one or two bishops, one or two abbots and a few laymen, all appointed by the Tsar and controlled by the Ober-Procurator who was a member of the Tsar's cabinet.

This is most certainly NOT the Zarist Church to which IPC belongs.
Well he certainly seems to disagree with you and thinks he belongs to a continuation of the Tsarist, Patriarch-less Russian Church. A sedevacantist if you will.
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« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2010, 10:01:30 PM »

  Be that as it may, this topic is now split off, so you need to keep that conflict within the other thread. There is actually a forum rule about this (see "Contain Conflict" under the forum rules.)


Quite right, George.   The topic of this thread is "In Defence of IPC"  so all those who are oposed to IPC should shut up.  They are off topic.

This thread is for those defending IPC. 
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« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2010, 10:04:37 PM »

Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.

Sergianism.... are you saying that an Orthodox priest is infected with heresy?  It kind of eludes me why you say that it is an attempt at humour.  The Russian Churcvh Abroad has always looked upon Sergianism with great alarm.


Sergianism
Sergianism is somewhat more nuanced as a heresy, and finds its origin in the capitulation of Metropolitan Sergius in 1927 to the Soviet state, during which he publicly associated the "sorrows" of the anti-Christian authorities with the suffering of the Church. A definition for Sergianism is at times difficult to clarify, but it has been best defined as the Church submitting to the worldly authorities for the sake of its own survival.

http://trueorthodox.freehostia.com/index.html



I'm afraid that the Zarist Church was Segian ever since Peter I.  So that would leave IPC utterly without grace.

Or ever since Chalcedon.
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« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2010, 10:05:54 PM »

  Be that as it may, this topic is now split off, so you need to keep that conflict within the other thread. There is actually a forum rule about this (see "Contain Conflict" under the forum rules.)


Quite right, George.   The topic of this thread is "In Defence of IPC"  so all those who are oposed to IPC should shut up.  They are off topic.

This thread is for those defending IPC. 
Please, by all means, feel free to attack IPC and his church in this thread. Just don't bring in conflicts from other threads. Having trouble containing conflict Irish Hermit? Try a rubber band around your wrist and flick it every time you get the urge.
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« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2010, 10:12:38 PM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.

You said: "Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

Really, George, I don't think that my questioning of IPC and my defence of my Church and Patriarch against his accusations amount to such a persecutin that I can be credited with driving an entire Church into the catacombs.  At least, I don't myself believe I can be held responsible for the Zarist Church's catacomb existence.  Do any others think I am responsible?   Shocked

I think Peter and George are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from criticism, even if such criticism is extreme. There is no question that IPC tends to write inflammatory and extremely offensive (to me at least) posts.
And I have already advised IPC to expect harsh criticism if he's going to have the gall to accuse our bishops of heresy.  I'm not going to defend him against criticism I deem warranted.  In fact, I've criticized the idiocy, harsh tone, and borderline-slanderous content of many of his posts myself, so I don't think I'm employing a double standard here.

Father Ambrose had the right as another poster to condemn IPC's post. He did NOT call for the administrators to censor and expel IPC. I have no idea where Peter and George get their justification to jump on Father Ambrose (and Isa) at the earliest opportunity but they do. BTW, I am not talking about Peter and George as current and former administrators but fellow posters. It just completely blows my mind why Peter and George are so nit picky with everything that Father Ambrose and Isa (and Gebre, to think of it) say. It is not as if Peter and George, like many of us, do not have strong opinions. I just don't get it.
Evidence that there's more to these scenarios than your eyes can see. Wink
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« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2010, 10:17:45 PM »

It just completely blows my mind why Peter and George are so nit picky with everything that Father Ambrose and Isa (and Gebre, to think of it) say.
I don't know about Peter, but I enjoy ruffling all your feathers. Smiley
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« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2010, 10:18:55 PM »

Please, by all means, feel free to attack IPC and his church in this thread.

I am amazed that you are encouraging off topic postings.  I remember your days as a Mod when you sent me several green ink messages and punishments for taking threads off topic.

If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.  What do you think?   Should this be a special privilege of IPC alone or should all members be allowed to follow his example?

Don't get me wrong.  In defence of IPC I am sure that in his home environment he or she is warm and cuddly.   But here on the Forum we seem to knock sparks off him.  Not his fault at all.
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« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2010, 10:20:30 PM »

Please, by all means, feel free to attack IPC and his church in this thread.

I am amazed that you are encouraging off topic postings.
But I thought attacking IPC was the topic. Otherwise, why would he need defending?
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« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2010, 10:24:39 PM »

If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.

Should this be a special privilege of IPC alone or should all members be allowed to follow his example?
By all means, feel free to attack the Orthodox Church and to publicly slander her Bishops.....oh wait....

Don't get me wrong.  In defence of IPC I am sure that in his home environment he or she is warm and cuddly.   But here on the Forum we seem to knock sparks off him.  Not his fault at all.
I have no idea what you are saying here.
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« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2010, 10:30:29 PM »

IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.


Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC. 

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
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« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2010, 10:33:52 PM »

IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.


Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC.  

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. Wink  In fact, why don't I just go ahead and do that.  Everybody hold on for a second.  This ride may get a bit bumpy. Grin
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« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2010, 10:38:48 PM »

IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.


Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC.  

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. Wink  In fact, why don't I just go ahead and do that.  Everybody hold on for a second.  This ride may get a bit bumpy. Grin
There! Cool  Fixed that problem. Grin
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« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2010, 10:39:20 PM »

I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. Wink

The man has launched several heavy artillery attacks on two of my Patriarchs.  Do you really think I am going to sit here, on an Orthodox Forum, and smile at him while he bombards them.  The attacking is initiated from IPC's corner.
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« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2010, 10:41:26 PM »

I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. Wink

The man has launched several heavy artillery attacks on two of my Patriarchs.  Do you really think I am going to sit here, on an Orthodox Forum, and smile at him while he bombards them.
Maybe you should. Wink  Why do they need you to defend them?
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« Reply #76 on: January 06, 2010, 10:42:27 PM »

IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.


Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC. 

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.

You have misunderstood in your over excitement. Read again. You said:
If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.
To which I replied:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
What I'm saying is that IPC's position is that his Church is the Orthodox Church, and not yours and not mine. If you want to counter what IPC is saying, you have to question that premise of his. Otherwise, all you end up with is the following:
"We're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"......

I was actually offering you a tip.

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« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2010, 10:46:04 PM »

Maybe you should. Wink  Why do they need you to defend them?

Right! but do you consider it in order for IPC to attack them?

The thread title has been changed to now attack me, accusing me of "unwarranted" criticism of IPC!    Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?  Since this thread is for the defence of IPC I would welcome defence of his attacks on the Patriarchs.

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« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2010, 10:48:17 PM »

Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?
He thinks they are, and has given reasons why. If you disagree, correct him.
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« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2010, 10:49:24 PM »

IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.


Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC.  

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.

You have misunderstood in your over excitement. Read again. You said:
If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.
To which I replied:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
What I'm saying is that IPC's position is that his Church is the Orthodox Church, and not yours and not mine. If you want to counter what IPC is saying, you have to question that premise of his. Otherwise, all you end up with is the following:
"We're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"......

I was actually offering you a tip.



Thanks.  I don't do tips. laugh

But why should I agree with your assesment of "You're Orthodox, no we are" when I consulted my Metropolitan and was told there is no "Russian Zarist Church."  If you are in doubt, consult your own Church authorities.

In defence of IPC, we would indeed say that he is mighty sincere in his beliefs.
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« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2010, 10:58:20 PM »

Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?
He thinks they are, and has given reasons why. If you disagree, correct him.


I cannot correct him in this thread since it is dedicated to the defence of IPC against me and my unwarranted criticisms.  I do not want to derail this thread. This is a thread for defending IPC and attacking me and my unwarranted criticisms.

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« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2010, 11:01:29 PM »

I did explain in public the use of the term zarist. The revolutionary authorities started calling the Russian True Orthodox Church, and ROCOR, as zarist. It is not our official title.

We can't conduct an accurate detective work to track down an individual on the internet, unless we have the knowledge and the equipment to do so. There are ways for anonymous surfing, in which a specific software can be used to "bounce" the signal, create a "mask" of your IP address, and connect you to several servers worldwide.

There is persecution in the free world too, ROCOR has been persecuted severely in the west. The Moscow Patriarchate infiltrated people, and created splinter groups that take with them relics, churches, money, etc. 

For instance, in 2001, the MP created in the USA its own ROCOR, formed by infiltrated individuals, like Met. Laurus, Met Hilarion and others, who with the unlimited resources provided by the russian government, left ROCOR taking with them Churches, relics, money, and everything they could.

The violence of the new ROCOR expanded like fire, to France, USA, Canada, Belgium, South America, Australia, and even inside the former USSR.

The attitude of Irish Hermit is typical of the new ROCOR under the Moscow Patriarchate, you can see how they try by all means to annihilate the True Russian Orthodox Christians, that bare witness of their unchristian deeds and teachings.

And you say there is no persecution?

Try being in Church with 20 Irish Hermits, be at the trapeza with them, yelling how "good" it is the MP and that we must join it. Try saying no to them. Try living in the same area with them, having them as work peers, try enjoying a ball with them causing all sort of problems. Have moslems and others done anything to you? Have you been forced to deal with them 24/7?











« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 11:08:02 PM by IPC » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2010, 11:03:33 PM »

Maybe you should. Wink  Why do they need you to defend them?

Right! but do you consider it in order for IPC to attack them?
AISI, IPC has provided information from outside sources to support his accusations.  Why haven't you spent any time questioning the credibility of his sources?  Why haven't you spent any time addressing the content of his sources and shown how they're wrong?  Why are you still so stuck on whether IPC even had the right to level such charges in the first place, even though he could support them with external documents?

The thread title has been changed to now attack me, accusing me of "unwarranted" criticism of IPC!    Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?
IPC seems to think they are, and he has offered documentation to support his grievances.  I therefore don't see any merit in your complaints against IPC, which by definition makes your criticism of IPC unwarranted.

Since this thread is for the defence of IPC I would welcome defence of his attacks on the Patriarchs.
Hasn't he already offered this defense?  What more do you want?

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Okay.  So you're a priest.  What special authority does this grant you on this forum that we should submit to your interpretation of things?
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« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2010, 11:04:53 PM »

For instance, in 2001, the MP created in the USA its own ROCOR, formed by infiltrated individuals, like Met. Laurus, Met Hilarion and others, who with the unlimited resources provided by the russian government, left ROCOR taking with them Churches, relics, money, and everything they could.
To be fair, can you give us any evidence to support this new allegation?
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« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2010, 11:08:22 PM »

For instance, in 2001, the MP created in the USA its own ROCOR, formed by infiltrated individuals, like Met. Laurus, Met Hilarion and others, who with the unlimited resources provided by the russian government, left ROCOR taking with them Churches, relics, money, and everything they could.

Yeah. But the ROCOR under Met. Laurus put their side of the story more eloquently Wink

"Thus, with regret our whole Church has had to endure powerful disturbances hitherto unseen. As if from deep within the bosom of the body of the Church cracks began to appear, though they have not yet developed into deep fissures. We look on with fear as in places they are trying to transform these chinks into rifts which split apart not only the flock, but even the clergy." - Address of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia to Its Flock (2001)
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« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2010, 11:11:41 PM »

AISI, IPC has provided information from outside sources to support his accusations.  Why haven't you spent any time questioning the credibility of his sources?

I did. I pointed out that his attack on His Holiness Patriarch Kirill is a statement from some Church group (in California?) which I am sure nobody has heard of.   Where's the credibilty?

But we are derailing this thread which was created In Defence of IPC.   We ought to be looking for supporting evidence to show that the anti-Patriarch Kirill statement is from a credible source and deserves our serious attention.  

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« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2010, 11:24:43 PM »

Okay.  So you're a priest.  What special authority does this grant you on this forum that we should submit to your interpretation of things?

I have not asked for submission.   Why would you bring submission into it?

May I ask if this thread now has two foci...

1.  Defence of IPC  and

2.  Assail Irish Hermit and his unwarranted criticism?
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« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2010, 11:29:19 PM »

Now that the subject has been changed, we could start posting for or against either IPC or Father Ambrose, no?

I support Father Ambrose's assertion that IPC was wrong to have invited folks to leave their "false" churches to join his "true" church. There is no need for more evidence here for IPC's own words impeach him.

I agree that IPC slandered two hierarchs without a reasoned argument, backed by facts. There is no need for more evidence to support the charge of slander, The ball is now in IPC's side--to prove his assertions or to admit his error.
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« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2010, 11:30:20 PM »

Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?
He thinks they are, and has given reasons why. If you disagree, correct him.


I cannot correct him in this thread since it is dedicated to the defence of IPC against me and my unwarranted criticisms.  I do not want to derail this thread. This is a thread for defending IPC and attacking me and my unwarranted criticisms.

Then it should be a short thread.  Christ is Born, Father!



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I'll wait for the "Defense of Irish Hermit's well founded criticism of IPC alleged church and IPC evading response to the same."
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« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2010, 11:35:40 PM »

I support Father Ambrose's
Who cares? I mean really, who cares? Whatever topic there is will always have people on both sides of a debate. What difference does it make to a debate if someone comes forward and says "I support so and so....so there!" This isn't a horse race you know- no one whats to know which horse you are betting on to win. If you have something to contribute, then contribute it. But "I support so and so" is about as useless as a bull's nipples.
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« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2010, 11:39:27 PM »

Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?
He thinks they are, and has given reasons why. If you disagree, correct him.


I cannot correct him in this thread
I know this may be a difficult concept for you to understand at first because it's such a radical idea, but stick with me on this one:
Why not correct him on the other thread?
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« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2010, 11:52:04 PM »


Try living in the same area with them, having them as work peers, try enjoying a ball with them causing all sort of problems. Have moslems and others done anything to you? Have you been forced to deal with them 24/7?


Yes, when a young monk I have been beaten up by Muslims in Prizren, and being spat upon was an almost everyday occurrence.

While I was a novice and then a monk at the holy monastery of Zica I have been beaten up and bloodied several times by Communists.

I think I have written about these things somewhere on the Forum...

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« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2010, 11:52:51 PM »

Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?
He thinks they are, and has given reasons why. If you disagree, correct him.


I cannot correct him in this thread
I know this may be a difficult concept for you to understand at first because it's such a radical idea, but stick with me on this one:
Why not correct him on the other thread?


Not understand.
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« Reply #93 on: January 07, 2010, 01:20:15 AM »

I remember that there was a brief thread in the middle of last year with the same theme  ~ to defend IPC against Irish Hermit.

"Building a case for IRISH HERMIT"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21995.0.html


It centres on IPC's extraordinary accusation that Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Church Abroad is complict in murder and as a reward for that he was appointed to the head position of Metropolitan by the Church in Moscow.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21963.0.html

And I notice that even in this amazing accusation Peter the Aleut is supporting IPC and the evidence he provides from a certain Preobrazensky to convict Metropolitan Hilarion of being a murderer.

In defence of IPC, we can see that his scurrilous attacks on Orthodox hierarchs is not a new phenomenon but he has been consistent in attacking them since his appearance on the Forum.  I admire his consistency.
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« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2010, 02:14:30 AM »

For instance, in 2001, the MP created in the USA its own ROCOR, formed by infiltrated individuals, like Met. Laurus, Met Hilarion and others, who with the unlimited resources provided by the russian government, left ROCOR taking with them Churches, relics, money, and everything they could.
To be fair, can you give us any evidence to support this new allegation?

Absolutely! From the book "The KGB in Russian Immigration" by Konstantin Preobrazhensky published in the USA by Liberty Publishing of NY the information about the unfiltered persons in provided.

In Chapter 2, entitled "Operation ROCOR" he describes how the Russian Government through the Moscow Patriarchate is achieving its goal to put church-going Russian immigrants all over the world under its control, and to make the church buildings of the ROCOR the state property of the Kremlin. Thus the Russian government will turn all ROCOR properties into outposts of Russian State interests in America and other Western nations.

Preobrazhensky writes the following: " Metropolitan Laurus Skurla has been quietly yielding the ROCOR to the MP for many years. It is very likely that Laurus was recruited back in the 1970's during his trips in the Cold War period to communist Czechoslovakia. Laurus made these trips to visit his brother, a known Communist Party leader. How did Laurus obtain a Visa to the Communist Russian satellite nation of Czechoslovakia so easily during the Cold War period? Only those with close ties with the KGB could have done so during this period.

In another public article, Preobrazhensky called "poisonings in ROCOR" posted in portalcredo,  describes the death of Metropolitan Philaret, i.e. Saint Philaret the Confessor of ROCOR, as related to poisoning and described how Met. Hilarion (Kapral) rushed into the room, and immediately cleaned the vomit coming from St Philaret's mouth. When Met. Hilarion was in charge of the Synodical Building, as Bishop of Manhattan, a sergianist seminarian stole the founding act of ROCOR, and handed it to the Moscow Patriarchate. The access to the Synodical Building in NYC is very restricted, no one can simply walk in, specially not into the offices where such important documents are kept.

Curiously is the order of the appointment of the leaders of the new ROCOR, first Metropolitan Laurus, now Metropolitan Hilarion. It wouldn't surprise me if the next in the bureaucratic escalator would be Mark Arnt.
 
Seeing those who get most of benefits, is an accurate way to see who had been working for the formation of that MP dependency.

On the other hand, the formation of the new ROCOR was followed by various meetings with President Putin, both in the Russian Embassy in the USA, who again and again offered them full support.

Representatives of the new ROCOR launched a series of legal actions, to take Churches, holy relics and money. To show how they work, I will bring to your attention the case of the Monastery of the Icon of the Mother of God of Vladimir. The new ROCOR wanted to take the Monastery, and all what's in there, expelling the elderly innocent nuns living there.

In the first stage of their tactic, they tried to send nuns to take control of the Monastery, they bullied the resident nuns, but they were always sent back home, so, the new ROCOR official hired lawyers, and sued the nuns. In of of the depositions, the elderly Igumenya Evgenia, suffered a heart attack. In an off court settlement, the nuns could keep the all the relics, their 5 miracle working icons, and some of their money, but they were forced to give the new ROCOR a lot of money, the monastery in which they now live, and other assets.

They don't care if they leave innocent elderly women on the street, all they care is to carry on the plans of giving everything to their new superiors.

I hope you are satisfied with some of the reasons of why I have such an opinion.

By the way, I am not defending myself, as I can not do this under any circumstance now Smiley

You're being warned (duration: 1 month) for not referring respectfully to the names of hierarchs of the Orthodox Church.  In the future, understand that all hierarchs of our Churches (ROCOR, MP, etc.) should at least be addressed with a level of respect (even if you don't support them) - this same respect is due your own hierarchs, even if others don't support them.

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« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 06:07:22 PM by Fr. George » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: January 07, 2010, 02:21:11 AM »


By the way, I am not defending myself, as I can not do this under any circumstance now Smiley


There is no need to defend yourself on this thread whose only purpose is to defend you.  Sit back, relax, and allow others to write and defend you.
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« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2010, 02:41:33 AM »

Wow, this thread is disrespectful to a lot of people in a lot of ways.  Sad
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« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2010, 02:52:19 AM »

[quote author = IPC link = topic = 25235.msg393900 # msg393900 date = 1262844870]
[quote author = PeterTheAleut link = topic = 25235.msg393822 # msg393822 date = 1262833493]
[quote author = IPC link = topic = 25235.msg393819 # msg393819 date = 1262833289]
For instance, in 2001, the MP created in the USA its own Faith, formed by infiltrated individuals, like Met. Laurus, Met Hilarion and others, who with the unlimited resources provided by the Russian government, taking with them left Faith Churches, Relics, money, and everything they could.
[/ Quote]
To be fair, can you give us any evidence to support this new allegation?
[/ Quote]

Absolutely! From the book "The KGB in Russian Immigration" by Konstantin Preobrazhensky published in the USA by Liberty Publishing of NY the unfiltered information about the persons in provided.

In Chapter 2, entitled "Operation Faith" he describes how the Russian Government through the Moscow Patriarchate is achieving its goal to put church-going Russian immigrants all over the world under its control, and to make the church buildings of the Faith the State Property of the Kremlin. Thus the Russian government will turn all ROCOR properties into Russian outposts of State interests in America and other Western nations.

Preobrazhensky writes the following: "Metropolitan Laurus Skurla has been quietly yielding the ROCOR to the MP for many years. It is very l ikely [/ b] that Laurus was Recruited back in the 1970's during his trips in the Cold War period to communist Czechoslovakia. Laurus made these trips to visit his brother, a known Communist Party leader. How [/ b] Laurus did obtain a Visa to the Russian Communist satellite nation of Czechoslovakia so easily during the Cold War period ? Only those with close ties with the KGB could have done so during this period.[/quote]

Likely? How? "Known?" sounds like a lot of conjecture on the part of someone who should purportedly know the facts, as is being made out.

Quote
In another public article, Preobrazhensky called "poisonings in Faith 'posted on portalcredo, describes the death of Metropolitan Philaret, ie Saint Philaret Confessor of the Faith, as related to poisoning and described how Met. Hilarion (Kapra) rushed into the room, and immediately cleaned the vomit coming from St. .. .. Philaret's mouth. When Met. Hilarion was in charge of the Synodical Building, as Bishop of Manhattan, the sergianist seminarian stole the founding act of Faith, and handed it to the Moscow Patriarchate. The Access to the Synodical Building in NYC is very restricted, no one can simply walk in, specially not into the offices where such important documents are kept.
Important documents like assassination contracts?
and what, possession of the founding act of Faith acts like a voodoo doll to control the faithful?
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« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2010, 04:00:45 AM »

I remember that there was a brief thread in the middle of last year with the same theme  ~ to defend IPC against Irish Hermit.

"Building a case for IRISH HERMIT"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21995.0.html


It centres on IPC's extraordinary accusation that Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Church Abroad is complict in murder and as a reward for that he was appointed to the head position of Metropolitan by the Church in Moscow.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21963.0.html

And I notice that even in this amazing accusation Peter the Aleut is supporting IPC and the evidence he provides from a certain Preobrazensky to convict Metropolitan Hilarion of being a murderer.
I asked only that evidence be provided, not that it be enough to prove a case.  So no, I did not defend the substance of the evidence itself.
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« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2010, 04:23:41 AM »

I remember that there was a brief thread in the middle of last year with the same theme  ~ to defend IPC against Irish Hermit.

"Building a case for IRISH HERMIT"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21995.0.html


It centres on IPC's extraordinary accusation that Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Church Abroad is complict in murder and as a reward for that he was appointed to the head position of Metropolitan by the Church in Moscow.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21963.0.html

And I notice that even in this amazing accusation Peter the Aleut is supporting IPC and the evidence he provides from a certain Preobrazensky to convict Metropolitan Hilarion of being a murderer.
I asked only that evidence be provided, not that it be enough to prove a case.  So no, I did not defend the substance of the evidence itself.

I most certainly demanded that incontrovertible evidence be provided by IPC for the accusation that Metropolitan Hilarion is an accomplice to murder.

"If these are not lies then I want them substantiated.  I want them substantiated to at least the level that the Forum Staff (and the Forum membership) are convinced that there is sufficient evidence to believe it possible that Metropolitan Hilarion is an accessory to murder."

(Msg #20.  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21963.0.html )

At this point the thread was closed by Fr Anastasios, leaving IPC's accusation of murder hanging in the air.

I later learnt that IPC's accusation was brought to the attention of senior clergy in NY but I do not know what, if any, action was taken.
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« Reply #100 on: January 07, 2010, 04:35:33 AM »


The violence of the new ROCOR expanded like fire, to France, USA, Canada, Belgium, South America, Australia, and even inside the former USSR.

The attitude of Irish Hermit is typical of the new ROCOR under the Moscow Patriarchate, you can see how they try by all means to annihilate the True Russian Orthodox Christians, that bare witness of their unchristian deeds and teachings.


Please, IPC, this is utter balderdash (do Americans use that word?)   Seven months ago you were publically accusing Metropolitan Hilarion the head of the new ROCOR of being an accomplice to the murder of Metropolitan Philaret.

What happened next?  Was the violence of the new ROCOR unleashed on you?  Were you visited in the night by ROCOR agents?   Were shots fired through your windows?  Were legal writs and subpoenas issued against you?  Were you threatened or harrassed in any way?  What violence did ROCOR use against you?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 04:57:23 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #101 on: January 07, 2010, 05:53:57 AM »

I remember that there was a brief thread in the middle of last year with the same theme  ~ to defend IPC against Irish Hermit.

"Building a case for IRISH HERMIT"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21995.0.html


It centres on IPC's extraordinary accusation that Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Church Abroad is complict in murder and as a reward for that he was appointed to the head position of Metropolitan by the Church in Moscow.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21963.0.html

And I notice that even in this amazing accusation Peter the Aleut is supporting IPC and the evidence he provides from a certain Preobrazensky to convict Metropolitan Hilarion of being a murderer.
I asked only that evidence be provided, not that it be enough to prove a case.  So no, I did not defend the substance of the evidence itself.

I most certainly demanded that incontrovertible evidence be provided by IPC for the accusation that Metropolitan Hilarion is an accomplice to murder.
And it's certainly your prerogative to ask for such evidence on this forum.  However, it cannot be said that I defended the evidence he provided if my only responsibility was to make sure he gave us at least enough evidence to suggest that he didn't just fabricate the charges himself.  I can't object to you holding him to a higher standard of proof by asking him to prove the charges to you, but such was beyond the scope of what I needed to request as a moderator.

"If these are not lies then I want them substantiated.  I want them substantiated to at least the level that the Forum Staff (and the Forum membership) are convinced that there is sufficient evidence to believe it possible that Metropolitan Hilarion is an accessory to murder."
And he provided the evidence at least to my satisfaction as a member of the Forum Staff.  Ultimately, it wasn't enough to convince me beyond any doubt that the charges were true, but he provided at least enough evidence to suggest that the charges were possible.

(Msg #20.  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21963.0.html )

At this point the thread was closed by Fr Anastasios, leaving IPC's accusation of murder hanging in the air.

I later learnt that IPC's accusation was brought to the attention of senior clergy in NY but I do not know what, if any, action was taken.
Considering that we are now discussing criminal allegations, possibly reviving a discussion on which Fr. Anastasios put the kibosh, I strongly recommend we stop this specific subthread and talk about other cases where IPC made accusations you would have liked him to substantiate to your satisfaction.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 06:40:56 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #102 on: January 07, 2010, 11:23:59 AM »

I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  

Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.

You said: "Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

Really, George, I don't think that my questioning of IPC and my defence of my Church and Patriarch against his accusations amount to such a persecutin that I can be credited with driving an entire Church into the catacombs.  At least, I don't myself believe I can be held responsible for the Zarist Church's catacomb existence.  Do any others think I am responsible?   Shocked

I think Peter and George are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from criticism, even if such criticism is extreme. There is no question that IPC tends to write inflammatory and extremely offensive (to me at least) posts. Father Ambrose had the right as another poster to condemn IPC's post. He did NOT call for the administrators to censor and expel IPC. I have no idea where Peter and George get their justification to jump on Father Ambrose (and Isa) at the earliest opportunity but they do. BTW, I am not talking about Peter and George as current and former administrators but fellow posters. It just completely blows my mind why Peter and George are so nit picky with everything that Father Ambrose and Isa (and Gebre, to think of it) say. It is not as if Peter and George, like many of us, do not have strong opinions. I just don't get it.

Peter and George are in a war with Fr. Ambrose and Isa. It doesn't matter what the subject is about.
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« Reply #103 on: January 07, 2010, 12:57:55 PM »


Regarding the title of this folder -

There is no defense of IPC's attack against Fr Ambrose.  IPC digs his own grave deeper with every post he makes.  How can one take such nonsense seriously?

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« Reply #104 on: January 07, 2010, 01:16:01 PM »

Thread locked pending moderatorial review

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