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Author Topic: ¿Why Ortodoxy was unable to resist Islam?  (Read 21225 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 04, 2010, 01:50:42 PM »

I wonder why Orthodoxy was unable to resist Islam.

95% of turkish people is muslim,
90% of lebanon
95% of Egipt

and so on in Jordan and Syria.

¿what were the causes?

Finally many orthodox went to USA to look for a new land into western emispher, ¿Why didn't they preffered Russia?

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 01:51:12 PM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 02:09:16 PM »

I wonder why Orthodoxy was unable to resist Islam.
Why? Are we Orthodox muslim are we? Orthodoxy is a Faith, not an army. We don't have Crusades, we were the victim of one.

Finally many orthodox went to USA to look for a new land into western emispher, ¿Why didn't they preffered Russia?
Because it was poor and Communist.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 02:11:09 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 02:18:23 PM »

I wonder why Orthodoxy was unable to resist Islam.

95% of turkish people is muslim,

The Turks were still in Central Asia and pagan when Islam arose.  Now, the area has Orthodoxy Churches.

Quote
90% of lebanon

Actualy 40%, and that is only recent.  Lebanon only has 10% of the world's population of Lebanese.  Btw, how to explain the fall of your coreligionists there, the Maronites?

Quote
95% of Egipt

Even the government admits that 10% of Egypt is Coptic.

Quote
and so on in Jordan and Syria.

5-10%

Now, I'll ask you: how is it that ALL (100%) of North Africa, which was Latin speaking and under Rome, the cradle of Latin Patristics (e.g. Tertullian, the first Latin father, and Pope Victor, the one who introduced the Latin mass at Rome (Greek was used before); how is it that it COMPLETELY disappeared: no Churches, no Faithful, no bishops, whereas the Orthodox still have Churches, the Faithful are holding on, and the Apostolic succession has continued in the areas you mention?

Quote
¿what were the causes?

Why did the Vatican's following split into Protestantism and Ultramontanism?

The decline on Orthodoxy in the region only picked up steam with the arrival of the Crusades.

Quote
Finally many orthodox went to USA to look for a new land into western emispher, ¿Why didn't they preffered Russia?
Many did: there are Greek, Arab, Armenian, and even Assyrian, etc. colonies in Russia, in addition to Germans, Scandinavians, English and even a Spanish noble or too.

You are aware that Russian had colonies in California, besides having Alaska, no?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 02:19:23 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2010, 02:20:23 PM »

I wonder why Orthodoxy was unable to resist Islam.

95% of turkish people is muslim,
90% of lebanon
95% of Egipt

and so on in Jordan and Syria.

¿what were the causes?

Finally many orthodox went to USA to look for a new land into western emispher, ¿Why didn't they preffered Russia?



A house divided doesn't stand. As our Holy Father Pope John Paul II during the Jubilee in the year 2000 recognized there is must blame to be found on both sides for the Schism and the envy the West held toward the East and visa-versa.

The East fell because we didn't have their back as true Christian Brothers and Sisters and now in our day the West will fall unless they have ours. Christendom must be 'one' in order to stand. We each will learn that in our own time.
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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2010, 02:23:30 PM »

I wonder why Orthodoxy was unable to resist Islam.

95% of turkish people is muslim,
90% of lebanon
95% of Egipt

and so on in Jordan and Syria.

¿what were the causes?

Finally many orthodox went to USA to look for a new land into western emispher, ¿Why didn't they preffered Russia?



And 98% of Tunisia (i.e., ancient Carthage) is Muslim, while less than .1% of Algeria (i.e., as in Augustine *of Hippo*) is Roman Catholic. Why wasn't Latin Christianity able to resist Islam anywhere they couldn't beat them back with swords?

Silly question.
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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2010, 02:55:38 PM »


A house divided doesn't stand. As our Holy Father Pope John Paul II during the Jubilee in the year 2000 recognized there is must blame to be found on both sides for the Schism and the envy the West held toward the East and visa-versa.

The East fell because we didn't have their back as true Christian Brothers and Sisters and now in our day the West will fall unless they have ours. Christendom must be 'one' in order to stand. We each will learn that in our own time.

What envy? 

If you want the East to "have your back" , so to speak, then you must repudiate your errors and confess the Holy Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2010, 03:15:12 PM »

90% of lebanon

Where did you get this from? Almost 40% of the Lebanese population is Christian (made up by Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, and Eastern-rite Catholics).
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2010, 03:17:32 PM »

I would argue that Orthodoxy did resist Islam since it still survives. Look at the number of martyrs we have (especially under the Turks) who resisted Islam by giving their life before betraying Christ.
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2010, 03:54:10 PM »


A house divided doesn't stand. As our Holy Father Pope John Paul II during the Jubilee in the year 2000 recognized there is must blame to be found on both sides for the Schism and the envy the West held toward the East and visa-versa.

The East fell because we didn't have their back as true Christian Brothers and Sisters and now in our day the West will fall unless they have ours. Christendom must be 'one' in order to stand. We each will learn that in our own time.

What envy?

In the early years the West envied the East, particularly their education and mastery of philosophy. In the later years the East envied the advances of the West, particularly their education and mastery of the sciences.

Quote
If you want the East to "have your back" , so to speak, then you must repudiate your errors and confess the Holy Orthodox faith.

I'll let my hierarchs discuss this with your hierarchs. I won't make such a determination as an individual, I am not a protestant nor am I a Church of one. If you cannot support the West against secularism and Islam then that is your problem.
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2010, 03:57:17 PM »

I admit that I sometimes have similar questions. Why was "the blood of the martyrs" the seed of Church during the Roman persecutions, but during later persecutions it was more like, instead of increasing, Orthodoxy was doing all it could to survive? True, they were different persecutions/circumstances, so it's not unexpected that there might be different results. But is that all there is to it?
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« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2010, 04:05:21 PM »

I admit that I sometimes have similar questions. Why was "the blood of the martyrs" the seed of Church during the Roman persecutions, but during later persecutions it was more like, instead of increasing, Orthodoxy was doing all it could to survive? True, they were different persecutions/circumstances, so it's not unexpected that there might be different results. But is that all there is to it?

Are you asking 'me' or the OP? Personally, if you don't mind me throwing in my 2 cents, I see 'no' difference between the persecution of the early Church in Rome and what Orthodox Christians have experienced at the hands of Communists. That doesn't mean that everything the survivors say is sacrosanct but it is a testament to the faith of many in the east. I, personally, never question the faith of those who have been persecuted for their faith when I have not. Coptics, Eastern Orthodox, Maronites, etc 'all' have my deepest respect. That doesn't mean that any 'one' group is better or superior than another... it just means that the blood of saints has been split.

The uniqueness of the See of Rome has more to do with Peter's martyrdom and passing on of this office in Rome than anything else but Rome's Pagan roots where purged by the blood of the Martyrs or so we are taught.
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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2010, 04:08:13 PM »

I admit that I sometimes have similar questions. Why was "the blood of the martyrs" the seed of Church during the Roman persecutions, but during later persecutions it was more like, instead of increasing, Orthodoxy was doing all it could to survive?

So it seemed, because they had somewhere to go.  In the initial conquests of the caliphs, thousands did convert, causing problems for the caliphs.  The final peace treaty/armistance with the Roman empire required that the Romans force the Christian Arabs who fled back into the caliphate.  The Greek nearly all picked up and went to New Rome.  Similare with the Turkish Orthodox, the Karamanlis, who were Turkish speaking but forced to immigrate to Greece in the population exchange according to religion.

Quote
True, they were different persecutions/circumstances, so it's not unexpected that there might be different results. But is that all there is to it?
In Egypt, every Orthodox I know knows at least one Muslim who converted.  I have to know at least a dozen.

Btw, the grandchildren of Jinah, the Father of Pakistan, cannot live in Pakistan: they are all baptized.
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« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2010, 04:22:36 PM »

I was just throwing it out there for general responses, thank you (ignatius) and ialmisry for your thoughts.
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« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2010, 05:05:43 PM »

I think the question of the OP is somewhat loaded as it assumes that the eastern half of the Christian world somehow failed to resist Islam while the western half did better. It may have been better if the question was: Why was the Muslim expansion as successful as it was? The historians that I have read have pointed out some factors but I do not believe that any of them can answer the question definitively (I am discounting Gibson for his obvious Anti-Christian animus). These points include:

- The local populations were getting tired of being pushed around by the Empire and its close ally the Church may have suffered for its close association with the state.

- For the people of the Book, the Muslim terms were quite liberal for those times, in fact at places even less onerous than the Christian Empire's. The Turks, in particular, were very good in taking advantage of divisions and dissonances in the Christian world.

- The tendency of a new movement to be exciting and thus attractive to some folks.

Just my two cents' worth.
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« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2010, 05:08:03 PM »

You yourself acknowledged the different circumstances, so I hesitated to post but there are certainly some important considerations there:

1) The martyrdoms among the first and second generations of Christians were a direct witness to the Truth of their witness. That is, the fact that 11 of the 12 apostles and so many of the 70 and beyond were willing to die for what *they had seen* was a witness that they actually believed they had seen it, it was not something they were making up. That particular practical force obviously can't apply later--martyrdoms now prove that the modern martyrs really believe that St. Peter and St. Paul and the rest saw what they said they saw, but it doesn't have the same evidentiary value as St. Peter and St. Paul's own martyrdom.

2) The Roman persecutions were intermittent. When they occurred, the Church suffered, people died and fell away. And then as soon as the persecution let up, the membership exploded. The membership didn't explode *during* the persecution. You can see the same effect in Russia, once the Soviet regime and its persecutions ended, the Russian Church's membership exploded. In Islamic lands, the pressure has tended to be much more consistent (though it might be an interesting exercise to map the variations that do exist with the growth or lack thereof for the local churches--to the extent it could be established).

3) Christianity in Rome was moving into an essentially open marketplace--even if Christianity itself wasn't free, there was not a single overarching competitor. IOW, there might be a great deal of social pressure on individuals not to become Christians, but there was not nearly as much for them to *stay* devotees of Mithras, or Cybele, or Isis, or neo-Platonists, etc. Whereas in Islamic countries, the social pressure is both directions--don't convert to Christianity, but also don't leave Islam. Factoring in there somewhere may also be the fact that Islamic persecution is specifically focussed on conversions. The level of persecution/oppression of existing Christians varies across time and geography, but the on-the-books legal directive for converts is always capital punishment. Thus, Rome's blanket persecutions grabbed many people who had been Christians for decades and gave them the choice of renouncing or being exemplars; Islam on the other hand focuses most strongly on the person who's been Christian for weeks.

just some thoughts off the top of my head.
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« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2010, 05:14:21 PM »

Stuff.

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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2010, 06:25:45 PM »

Thanks all for answering, I think by the answers I got, I have touched a sensible point in many orthodox, I see that many of them have fired back and it is not my atempt to deffend catholicism from your acusations, my atempt is to undertand the sociological process that lead so many people claimed to be belivers of Ortodoxy, to convert into Muslims. Everybody would agree with me that to reach 95% of muslims in a former christian country the only way to explain it is by conversion, massive conversion.

Now, Spain, Portugal, And Italy were also invaded by Muslims and jews, though after XVI century the last realm of Islam was drove out from Western Europe, Granada in Spain, and Spain become in that time almost 90% Catholic, though they were under 800 years of Muslim domination.

So ¿why jordan, syrian, and turkish have not yet taken Islam out from their originaly christian countries?
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2010, 06:33:41 PM »

Seriously, you are taking the Reconquista and the Spanish Inquisition as exemplars? Well then the answer is easy (though your stats are still all wrong), Islam used the same tactics as Rome did in Iberia and got a similar effect.
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« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2010, 06:46:24 PM »

Seriously, you are taking the Reconquista and the Spanish Inquisition as exemplars? Well then the answer is easy (though your stats are still all wrong), Islam used the same tactics as Rome did in Iberia and got a similar effect.

Yes, I agree, but Spanish under opresive Islam were resistant enought to fight back Islam, ¿Why bizantines haven't been as resistant as spanish?
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« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2010, 09:28:33 PM »

Thanks all for answering, I think by the answers I got, I have touched a sensible point in many orthodox, I see that many of them have fired back and it is not my atempt to deffend catholicism from your acusations, my atempt is to undertand the sociological process that lead so many people claimed to be belivers of Ortodoxy, to convert into Muslims. Everybody would agree with me that to reach 95% of muslims in a former christian country the only way to explain it is by conversion, massive conversion.

No, migration.  Massive migration. The Turks didn't enter Antolia until 1054.  Large parts of it had been no man's land for some time, so as the Turks gained control, they could bring in the Turkic hoards. Then there is the problem of the child tax, which of course added to Muslim numbers by subtracting from the Christian. That 95% Muslim number was achieved by expelling 1.5 million Greeks, killing off a million or so Armenians, (and thousands of Syrians) importing a half million Muslims from Greece about a hundred years ago.  So about a quarter of the population was shifted by killing off/expelling the Christian population, without conversion.

The same process in reverse operated in Spain: all non-baptized were expelled by 1492.  Not a great mystery.


Quote
Now, Spain, Portugal, And Italy were also invaded by Muslims and jews, though after XVI century the last realm of Islam was drove out from Western Europe, Granada in Spain, and Spain become in that time almost 90% Catholic, though they were under 800 years of Muslim domination.

So ¿why jordan, syrian, and turkish have not yet taken Islam out from their originaly christian countries?
Greece is 98% Orthodox, although occupied over half a millenium by Muslims.  Only Albania had massive coversions (now nominally 70% Muslim) and even that was achieved only by massive expulsions and colonization by Muslim Turks in Albania.  And even there, the Albanians didn't convert, they moved: to Southern Italy, Greece, etc.

And you still have evaded the question of what happened to Christian North Africa?  The Orthodox in Egypt still number in the millions, but the Vatican's flock in North Africa only dates now from the colonial period.  Nothing remains of their originally Christian countries in the Maghreb.

Seriously, you are taking the Reconquista and the Spanish Inquisition as exemplars? Well then the answer is easy (though your stats are still all wrong), Islam used the same tactics as Rome did in Iberia and got a similar effect.

Yes, I agree, but Spanish under opresive Islam were resistant enought to fight back Islam, ¿Why bizantines haven't been as resistant as spanish?
The "Byzantines" or rather correctly, the East Romans held their own in the Balkans, and fought back Islam, while protected Western Europe (which, more often than not, was stabbing in the back the Orthodox, as St. Stephan the Athelete of Christ (as the Vatican called him) complained.  You seem to overestimate the Spanish resistance and minize the Romans: Anatolia was depopulated several times, and until 1923, still had a large Christian population which was either killed off or moved. They did not convert.
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« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2010, 09:31:43 PM »

Seriously, you are taking the Reconquista and the Spanish Inquisition as exemplars? Well then the answer is easy (though your stats are still all wrong), Islam used the same tactics as Rome did in Iberia and got a similar effect.

Yes, I agree, but Spanish under opresive Islam were resistant enought to fight back Islam, ¿Why bizantines haven't been as resistant as spanish?

The Reconquista had huge support from the Pope and had reinforcements from all over Western Europe. What did the Byzantines have?
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« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2010, 09:34:09 PM »

Seriously, you are taking the Reconquista and the Spanish Inquisition as exemplars? Well then the answer is easy (though your stats are still all wrong), Islam used the same tactics as Rome did in Iberia and got a similar effect.

Yes, I agree, but Spanish under opresive Islam were resistant enought to fight back Islam, ¿Why bizantines haven't been as resistant as spanish?

The Reconquista had huge support from the Pope and had reinforcements from all over Western Europe. What did the Byzantines have?
Crusaders, and other knife scars in the back.
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« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2010, 09:41:31 PM »

I wonder why Orthodoxy was unable to resist Islam.

I wonder how Orthodoxy has been able to survive that many centuries enduring constant persecution under Islam.
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« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2010, 10:49:17 PM »

Grace and Peace to all,

I'm going to step away from this thread as I fear the Orthodox have allowed this individual to excite their passions and Catholicism will be ridiculed for it. Very disappointing for us who seek apatheia and watchfulness of heart.
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« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2010, 11:19:49 PM »

Seriously, you are taking the Reconquista and the Spanish Inquisition as exemplars? Well then the answer is easy (though your stats are still all wrong), Islam used the same tactics as Rome did in Iberia and got a similar effect.

Yes, I agree, but Spanish under opresive Islam were resistant enought to fight back Islam, ¿Why bizantines haven't been as resistant as spanish?

The Reconquista had huge support from the Pope and had reinforcements from all over Western Europe. What did the Byzantines have?
Crusaders, and other knife scars in the back.

The Byzantines had lots of chances: defeat of Caliphate in 1258, defeat of Bajazet by Tamerlane. Really, I don't know why they couldn't have been more like Skanderberg in Albania once Constantinople fell. Maybe out of divine favor?

No underestimating Spanish resistance, Cordoba, and later Granada, were powerful kingdoms with all of the Eastern Caliphate remains flocking to it to fight jihads.
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« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2010, 12:51:27 AM »

Seriously, you are taking the Reconquista and the Spanish Inquisition as exemplars? Well then the answer is easy (though your stats are still all wrong), Islam used the same tactics as Rome did in Iberia and got a similar effect.

Yes, I agree, but Spanish under opresive Islam were resistant enought to fight back Islam, ¿Why bizantines haven't been as resistant as spanish?

The Reconquista had huge support from the Pope and had reinforcements from all over Western Europe. What did the Byzantines have?
Crusaders, and other knife scars in the back.

The Byzantines had lots of chances: defeat of Caliphate in 1258,

The Mongols did that. And they stayed.

Quote
defeat of Bajazet by Tamerlane.

He also stayed, and actually let the Ottomans stay as vassals.

Quote
Really, I don't know why they couldn't have been more like Skanderberg in Albania once Constantinople fell. Maybe out of divine favor?

Yeah, they submitted at Florence.

And you do know what happened to Albania after Skanderbeg, no?  As a matter of fact, the fact that he is called that (his name when the Turks took him in child tax) and not George Castriotti should tell you.



Quote
No underestimating Spanish resistance, Cordoba, and later Granada, were powerful kingdoms with all of the Eastern Caliphate remains flocking to it to fight jihads.
Cordoba lasted only about a century, and was cut off from (actually, in opposition to) the caliphates in the East.
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« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2010, 01:19:11 AM »

two missed chances to rebuild the empire- 1258 when no Eastern Caliphate existed, and then later when Bajazet was defeated. After 1085 when the ancient Goth capital of Toledo fell, and When 1258 occurred, all the Islamic fighter went to the "Western Caliphate"  and tried to defend Cordoba, when Cordoba fell, they built Granada strategically in an impenetrable location. They were the first to use cannons to defend cities (unless Greek fire counts as canons). The re-capture of Spain and subsequent invasion of Africa was truly epic. The almohads tried invading with a half-million man army and invincible armadas but they lost (El Cid). Poor orthodox Christians, no re-conquista  Cry

and even MORE poor COE, not only no reconquista, 80 million dead Christians and nobody even knows we exist.
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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2010, 01:37:00 AM »

I know of heroic resistance of Orthodox, And as you may see, I son't know about all represion from Turks to Orthodox, but you will also agree with me that something is happening that I can't see from Mexico about the resilance of turks to accept christianity. ¿What happened there?

By the way I am sorry for my english because my native language is spanish,
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« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2010, 01:39:52 AM »

The Moors were as bad as the Turks. They had child tax and all that crap too. I think that with one usurper after another in the Byzantine empire there was no cohesion.
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« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2010, 01:42:05 AM »

two missed chances to rebuild the empire- 1258 when no Eastern Caliphate existed, and then later when Bajazet was defeated. After 1085 when the ancient Goth capital of Toledo fell, and When 1258 occurred, all the Islamic fighter went to the "Western Caliphate"  and tried to defend Cordoba, when Cordoba fell, they built Granada strategically in an impenetrable location. They were the first to use cannons to defend cities (unless Greek fire counts as canons). The re-capture of Spain and subsequent invasion of Africa was truly epic. The almohads tried invading with a half-million man army and invincible armadas but they lost (El Cid). Poor orthodox Christians, no re-conquista  Cry

and even MORE poor COE, not only no reconquista, 80 million dead Christians and nobody even knows we exist.


I know about you Iknow about you suffer, But there is an ocean between you and me, I can´t go to fight aside you, I only can do is suppor Pope in Rome with 1 day of my salary as it is requested from me, and Pope will decide where to use it. I feel sorrow for you, only think I can do is to pray for you.
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« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2010, 01:44:16 AM »

If you know about any other way to help you tell me.
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« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2010, 01:45:39 AM »

Read about the COE, learn from it. Support it, don't call it heretic. Read about the Assyrian Church of the East, the Holy Spirit will do the rest.
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« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2010, 01:53:32 AM »

two missed chances to rebuild the empire- 1258 when no Eastern Caliphate existed,

The Mongol Empire wasn't a vacuum.

Quote
and then later when Bajazet was defeated.
Quote

by a more powerful Muslim, Timur, who payed obeissance to the caliph in Cairo.  Btw, Beyazit's mother was Greek.

Quote
After 1085 when the ancient Goth capital of Toledo fell, and When 1258 occurred, all the Islamic fighter went to the "Western Caliphate"  and tried to defend Cordoba, when Cordoba fell, they built Granada strategically in an impenetrable location.

What Islamic fighters?  The ones in Andalusia came from North Africa. Cordoba fell in 1236. Granada was a vassal of Castille.


Quote
They were the first to use cannons to defend cities (unless Greek fire counts as canons). The re-capture of Spain and subsequent invasion of Africa was truly epic. The almohads tried invading with a half-million man army and invincible armadas but they lost (El Cid). Poor orthodox Christians, no re-conquista  Cry

Yeah, we kept the Balkans and expanded across Asia into America instead.

Quote
and even MORE poor COE, not only no reconquista, 80 million dead Christians and nobody even knows we exist.


Yeah, that's a shame: btw, Genghis Khan's mother was COE.
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« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2010, 01:56:38 AM »

I know of heroic resistance of Orthodox, And as you may see, I son't know about all represion from Turks to Orthodox, but you will also agree with me that something is happening that I can't see from Mexico about the resilance of turks to accept christianity. ¿What happened there?

same thing that happened to the moors, who went to North Africa rather than convert. In the case of the Turks, the million or so Turks that had converted were expelled to Greece in 1923.  And then there is the Gagauz in Moldavia, a nationality with the highest percentage of Orthodox as a nation.
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« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2010, 01:57:10 AM »

I know of heroic resistance of Orthodox, And as you may see, I son't know about all represion from Turks to Orthodox, but you will also agree with me that something is happening that I can't see from Mexico about the resilance of turks to accept christianity. ¿What happened there?

By the way I am sorry for my english because my native language is spanish,

It is my understanding that apostacy can be punished with death under islamic law. I think this might be part of the reason.
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« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2010, 02:12:07 AM »

Hulawu Khan made the ishmaelites pay, his mother and wife were COE and he ended that vampire city Baghdad. Tamerlane-Hitler was the one who killed millions of COE members. Mountains of skulls and that sort of evil. To boot, the only COE people he didn't murder were suddenly forced to submit to Rome by the Portuguese in India two centuries later, totally de-stabilizing the COE's most ancient episcopate. Indian Christianity never recovered. To this day COE Syriac bibles are dug up in Samarkand, Persia, China... Cry
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« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2010, 02:50:24 AM »

Hulawu Khan made the ishmaelites pay, his mother and wife were COE and he ended that vampire city Baghdad. Tamerlane-Hitler was the one who killed millions of COE members. Mountains of skulls and that sort of evil. To boot, the only COE people he didn't murder were suddenly forced to submit to Rome by the Portuguese in India two centuries later, totally de-stabilizing the COE's most ancient episcopate. Indian Christianity never recovered. To this day COE Syriac bibles are dug up in Samarkand, Persia, China... Cry

BY FOOT TO CHINA

Mission of The Church of the East, to 1400

http://www.aina.org/books/bftc/bftc.htm


DEDICATED to the memory of the men of God who thirteen centuries ago first took the gospel to China - "the missionaries who traveled on foot, sandals on their feet, a staff in their hands, a basket on their backs, and in the basket the Holy Scriptures and the cross. They went over deep rivers and high mountains, thousands of miles, and on the way, meeting many nations, they preached to them the gospel of Christ."


An extraordinary online account and a must read.

And in message 29 at http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20533.msg310275/topicseen.html#msg310275

you can read about the book:


The Lost History of Christianity

The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--and How It Died
by Philip Jenkins
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« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2010, 02:53:07 AM »

Wonderful book no? Read also "The Monks of Kublai Khan" :

http://www.aina.org/books/mokk/mokkcontents.htm

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« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2010, 09:26:27 AM »

two missed chances to rebuild the empire- 1258 when no Eastern Caliphate existed,

The Mongol Empire wasn't a vacuum.


Not to mention that the Eastern Roman Empire had been betrayed and gutted by the Latins in 1204, who established their own state until the Byzantines gave them the boot in 1261. They were hardly in a position to "rebuild the empire".
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« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2010, 10:31:34 AM »

The later pope John Paul II visited some countries of Asia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kasakstan, Jordan, etc. was ther a change about christians among muslims?

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« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2010, 10:53:54 AM »

Alonso_castillo,

If we Catholics were so focused on the restoration of Christendom and the defeat of Islam why did the English and French side with the Turks against Russia when they attempted to take back Christian lands from the Sultan at the start of the Crimean War?

Let's not cherry pick through history here, Friend. If we would have aided Russia in this we would all be able to attend the Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia right now.
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« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2010, 11:30:47 AM »

Alonso_castillo,

If we Catholics were so focused on the restoration of Christendom and the defeat of Islam why did the English and French side with the Turks against Russia when they attempted to take back Christian lands from the Sultan at the start of the Crimean War?

Let's not cherry pick through history here, Friend. If we would have aided Russia in this we would all be able to attend the Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia right now.

Speaking of the French, they helped the Ottomans make the Mediterranean a Turkish lake back in the 16th and 17th Centuries.
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« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2010, 11:34:12 AM »

Crusaders, and other knife scars in the back.

Indeed. Perhaps the sack of Constantinople by the "noble" Crusaders had some adverse affect on the ability of the Byzantine Empire to resist Muslim domination?

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« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2010, 11:40:01 AM »

Why did Islam grow in the first place? Huh
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« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2010, 11:50:31 AM »

How come the Orthodox let it get so cold in Russia?
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