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Author Topic: Oh Those Russians  (Read 18361 times) Average Rating: 0
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2009, 04:57:24 PM »

Comments about Jerusalem sparked a memory of this poem below.  The author is Louis Hemmings of Dublin,
a purveyor of second-hand theological books.  He had been on a Jerusalem pilgrimage.
 


Old Abraham the Eternal Pilgrim
________________________________________________

With burning bright vision you tramped, old Abraham,
warmed in your rugged heart by the visions of candle-lit, paint cracked icons,
as you wandered through snow hushed taigas
& in the broken villages where  golden cupolas glow
with ancient sunset fire & choirs chant
St. Basils guttural plaintive liturgy,
unchanged for a thousand years the prophetic hope proclaiming.

You search for your true homeland
from the steppes of the Urals to the teeming streets of Jerusalem.
Almost with the authority of a Patriarch
you were welcomed when your staff rapped
the wooden doors thee times: in the name
of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost.

En route to the Holy Land you stored up black bread
& a few copecks, collecting prayer-petitions
in exchange for wayside shelter at night.
The peasants called you a half-remembered saint,
the bell of God; your call comes to me, sure & strong. 

I see you shuffle quietly with your blessing
among the benches where Orthodox faithful gather
in hostel at Jerusalem, its gold roof cupolas mirror the suns glory,
you move as a holy gift, making the sign of the cross with a home-made tin censer:
thick frankinsense perfumed smoke cleansing your
adopted pilgrim families, far from home but near to God.
These friends whom you greet & kiss ferverently,
repeating the litany: "Slava Tebye Gospody." - Praise be to Thee, O Lord!

Banging your pilgrim staff, you stand in the happy,
ragged circle of foot-blistered women, singing with them haunting,
melancholic minor-key Russian Psalms, then you spit mouthfulls of holy water
in their rapturous faces & bless them in the name of the Holy Trinity.

"Christ is risen! Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
Your watchman call comes to me from pre-Revolutionary Russia
before the sickle dripped sacrificial blood, before the exiles & executions;
the dead in Christ shall rise first on that last Judgement Day when the trumpet call comes.
Bells are replaced in your once-dumb churches,
let that jubilant struck brass ring triumphant.

 
Louis Hemmings @ Samovar Books, Ireland


Beautiful.
Now, isn't it so much nicer to be chatting about Jerusalem than homosexuality in Finland? Wink
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« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2009, 05:10:56 PM »

Beautiful.
Now, isn't it so much nicer to be chatting about Jerusalem than homosexuality in Finland? Wink

Indeed it is, but why does homosexuality in Finland count as something distasteful to discuss?  Does it not advance the gay agenda towards same-sex marriage, something I have read you strongly supporting in another Forum.  IIRC, your positon is, a la Boswell, that same-sex marriages were conducted by the Greek Church up until the late 19th century when the influence of the Roman Catholic Church put the kibosh on them.
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« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2009, 05:15:44 PM »

If I forget Thee Jerusalem, may my right hand wither and my tongue cleave to my mouth.
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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2009, 05:19:15 PM »

Quote
The Greeks of Smyrna greeted him with cheers of "Traitor!" "Muscovite!" because phyletism, of course, only meant distinction of races in the Churches when they asserted themselves in wanting to pray in their own language, not when the Phanariots wanted to Hellenize their subject peoples, Moscow having helped the subjected in the former in resisting the latter.
This is not entirely true, I mean, reality was far more complex, even back then.
The Russians were advancing throughout the Balkans their panslavist ideas, so it just happened that Bulgarians were deemed assimilable enough; at exactly the same time, they were busy suppresing any trace of the "Moldovan" language in the Eparchy of Chisinau (Basarabia/Moldova).

The Russians, at first at least, treated the Bulgarian affair as an internal affair on Constantinople.  And it wasn't just the Russian Consul in Jerusalem who supported the Patriarch of Jerusalen, but the Greek consul as well.

Quote
And, we were never forced to use Greek in our churches, despite having been formally, under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate for a few centuries. Even during the real Phanariot period, Greek was only used in the metropolitan cathedrals of Bucuresti and Iasi and a few other churches, not exclusively though, but alongside Slavonic and Romanian.

Romanian for DL was explicitely banned.  There were no Romanian bishops.

Quote
Yet the use of the vernacular was no longer possible in Basarabia shortly after its uncannonical annexation by the Russian church.

Uncanonical how?  Bessarabia was part of the Russian empire (in fact, the creation of the Russian empire).  The original bishops of Moldavia in the early days were from the Rus' in Galicia, in opposition to Constantinople appointing the bishops.  How legal the annexation by the empire is a different question.  Btw, the Russian forced their will on the Patriarchate of Jerusalem by preventing funds coming from Bessarabia, where the Phanariots had set up estates which raked the incocme into Jerusalem.
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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2009, 05:21:22 PM »

If I forget Thee Jerusalem, may my right hand wither and my tongue cleave to my mouth.

Reminded me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYr4Fz14C6w
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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2009, 05:25:08 PM »

In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2009, 05:26:43 PM »

In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
But everyone here claims that the Russian metochia in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
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« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2009, 05:34:58 PM »

In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
But everyone here claims that the Russian metochia in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

There seems to be a mistaken idea that the churches and monasteries of the Russian Churches (Moscow, but mainly the Church Abroad) are constituted as metochia in the Holy Land.
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2009, 05:39:17 PM »

In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
But everyone here claims that the Russian metochia in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
There seems to be a mistaken idea that the churches and monasteries of the Russian Churches (Moscow, but mainly the Church Abroad) are constituted as metochia in the Holy Land.
So if they are not metochia, then what are they?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 05:39:55 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2009, 05:43:28 PM »

In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
But everyone here claims that the Russian metochia in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
There seems to be a mistaken idea that the churches and monasteries of the Russian Churches (Moscow, but mainly the Church Abroad) are constituted as metochia in the Holy Land.
So if they are not metochia, then what are they?


Pretty much what they look like - churches and monasteries.  The Russians created them out of their enormous love for the holy places and the Patriarch of Jerusalem has always been happy to have them within his patriarchate.  They commemorate him, they serve on his antimensia.
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2009, 05:56:59 PM »

How many people know that the Russian convent in Gethsemane owes its existence to a Scottish woman who converted to Orthodoxy?

"A small convent grew around the church in Gethsemane Garden. It was founded in 1934 with the blessing of Blessed Metropolitan Anastassy by a Scottish convert to Orthodoxy, Barbara Robinson, who later became Abbess Mary.

"In 1932, two Englishwomen: Barbara-Stella Robinson and Alix Sprot, became zealous devotees of the Faith of Christ and finally converted and were tonsured. The former, given the monastic name of Mary, came to know the fullness of the Faith just like her namesake—at the feet of her teacher; Nun Mary learned from a lantern of the Church of Christ, Metropolitan Anastassy. The other, taking the name Martha, dedicated herself totally to the monastic service of the younger sisters and to children. The two of them, through their resources and labors, enabled the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem to create a new community in Bethany, and a school for Arab girls (now there are some 350 students enrolled). Mother Mary was appointed by the Synod of Bishops as the Abbess of this community and was elevated to the rank of hegumenia.
"She settled with some of the sisters in the Russian part of Gethsemane Garden at the Church of St Mary Magdalene, where the system of daily services gradually took hold and monastic life was established. Nun Martha remained in Bethany."

Source :: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/8enjerusalemday6.html



Mother Mary (Barbara Robinson) on left
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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2009, 06:45:08 PM »

In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
But everyone here claims that the Russian metochia in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Metochion commemorate both. We've had this discussion before about the Russian Patriarchal parishes in North America. The church commemorates the hierarch to which they 'belong' administratively and they commemorate the hieararch on whose canonical territory and at whose discretion they exist.
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« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2009, 06:45:42 PM »

That still doesn't explain why the EO leadership and most, if not all, of the monks there are not Orthodox Palestinians.  I'm not saying the EO Patriarch and monks there have to be Palestinian.  I'm just wondering why none of them are, when they are the people native to the area.  Is there a reason why the Patriarch and his monks can't be Palestinian?  Or are there no worthy candidates for these positions among the Orthodox Palestinians?  It just seems like a weird situation that the Orthodox Church of a particular region is run exclusively by people from another part of the world.  I'm just wondering why that is.  Is there a historical reason for this?

There is one Arab bishop on the Holy Synod - H.G. Theodosios Atallah Hanna - who was also the official spokesperson of the Patriarchate. When I asked one of the Greek Metropolitans in the Holy Land why there weren't more, he replied "...because we Greeks are chauvinists."

How did the Greeks get to be in control of the Patriarchate in the first place?

Also, I want to make it clear to everyone that I am not trying to bash Greeks.  I like Greeks very much.  His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is one of my favorite people.   Smiley  I'm just wondering about the situation in Jerusalem and how it got to be that way.
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« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2009, 07:20:05 PM »

That still doesn't explain why the EO leadership and most, if not all, of the monks there are not Orthodox Palestinians.  I'm not saying the EO Patriarch and monks there have to be Palestinian.  I'm just wondering why none of them are, when they are the people native to the area.  Is there a reason why the Patriarch and his monks can't be Palestinian?  Or are there no worthy candidates for these positions among the Orthodox Palestinians?  It just seems like a weird situation that the Orthodox Church of a particular region is run exclusively by people from another part of the world.  I'm just wondering why that is.  Is there a historical reason for this?

There is one Arab bishop on the Holy Synod - H.G. Theodosios Atallah Hanna - who was also the official spokesperson of the Patriarchate. When I asked one of the Greek Metropolitans in the Holy Land why there weren't more, he replied "...because we Greeks are chauvinists."

How did the Greeks get to be in control of the Patriarchate in the first place?

The Turks put the Phanar in charge.


Quote
Also, I want to make it clear to everyone that I am not trying to bash Greeks.  I like Greeks very much.  His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is one of my favorite people.   Smiley  I'm just wondering about the situation in Jerusalem and how it got to be that way.

http://www.frmichel.najim.net/brotherenglish.pdf
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« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2009, 10:09:54 PM »

The Turks aren't in charge of Jerusalem anymore, so why is the Greek Church still in control?  Why haven't the Palestinians been given control of their own territory? 
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« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2009, 10:35:10 PM »

An excellent question.
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« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2009, 10:55:10 PM »

The Turks aren't in charge of Jerusalem anymore, so why is the Greek Church still in control?  Why haven't the Palestinians been given control of their own territory? 

There is a possibility that within a few generations there will be a geuninely Hebrew Orthodox Church once again in the Holy Land....a  renewed and strengthened Patriarchate of Jerusalem composed mainly of Russian Orthodox Christians of Jewish origin.... a Jew (probably of Russian origin) will once again be Patriarch of Jerusalem and sitting on the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord!

 

"The Russians Are Coming" to rescue the Holy Land?

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/494/op1.htm

There have been significant changes to Israeli religious demographics over the last 15 years, thanks to the influx of more than 1 million Russians. One in 5 Israelis is now Russian, 20% of the population. A proportion of these are Jews by ancestry but Russian Orthodox Christians by religion. The numbers are large enough to cause anxiety in the Knesset.  Today new Orthodox churches are being built throughout Israel and even on the kibbutzim! The Russians and the Arabs are brother Orthodox in Israel and together they will bring a new springtime of Christianity to the Mother Church of Jerusalem.


"I was recently given two startling pieces of information by a visiting Palestinian friend from Jerusalem. One was that there were several Russian Orthodox Christian churches being built in the southern Israeli town of Beersheba.... <snip>

"Just as remarkable is Lustick's observation that a significant number of the newcomers had registered themselves either as Christians or persons of no religion at all. As a result of this situation, the Russians, or to put it another way, non-Arab Christians [i.e., Russians] are the fastest growing Israeli religious community and now constitute 8-9 per cent of the non-Arab population of the state... <snip>"
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/494/op1.htm

One factor with which the Jerusalem Patriarchate will have to come to terms in the near future is the large numbers of Russian Orthodox who are now part of its flock. These are Jews genetically and Orthodox Christians religiously. Jerusalem has set up a church department for the Russians but it seems inadequate for the numbers of Russians involved. In the years ahead the character of the Patriarchate will be altered by the Russian Orthodox influx.

Another article:

http://portal-credo.ru/site/print.php?act=news&id=33276

Last wave of immigration sharply increased
the number of secret Orthodox Christians in Israel


Although official statistics indicate that the number of Christians in Israel is constantly decreasing, in reality, EAI data shows that there is a large number of secret Christians among the Jews who arrived from Russia and Ukraine between 1989-1993.

Thus, the research conducted among 86,000 new immigrants in 1999 demonstrated that approximately 53% of them cannot be considered Jews in accordance with Judaic law. Available data suggest approximately 400,000 "unregistered [Orthodox] Christians" arrived with the last wave of immigration.
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« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2009, 11:01:34 PM »

The Turks aren't in charge of Jerusalem anymore, so why is the Greek Church still in control?  Why haven't the Palestinians been given control of their own territory? 

Here are the Jewish statistics for immigration from the Soviet Union/Russia, covering 1948 to 2006.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Immigration/FSU.html

It's a very high percentage of Israel's population of 6,400,000
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

As I have mentioned above, it is the influx of Russian Orthodox Christians who are genetically Jewish which will ensure the survival of Christianity in Israel. Although they are rarely mentioned, they already outnumber all the other Christians in Israel and are building churches. God is blessing the Orthodox in the Holy Land with great hope for the future.

These Russian Christian Jews use both Hebrew and Slavonic in their services. In time we will see a unique phenomenon emerging - a truly Jewish Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and a Jew (of Russian background) sitting on the Throne of Saint James the Just as Patriarch of Jerusalem.

The Arab Orthodox are already outnumbered by the Russian Orthodox.   The Greek Orthodox in the Holy Land are only a small number but they presently control the hierarchy who are not usually Israelis but imports from Greece or Alexandria.
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« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2009, 11:01:57 PM »

The Turks aren't in charge of Jerusalem anymore, so why is the Greek Church still in control?  Why haven't the Palestinians been given control of their own territory? 

LOL.  The Palestinians have been asking the same question.  And not just over the Church.
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« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2009, 12:24:47 AM »

so why is the Greek Church still in control?

The "Greek Church" does not exist. There is the Church of Greece, which does not control Jerusalem. There is the Church of Constantinople, which does not control Jerusalem. The Church of Jerusalem remains an autocephalous Church, as it has been for the past 1500 years, and it controls its own territory. I'm not saying this to be pedantic, but to identify churches with ethnicity ("Greeks belong to 'the Greek Church'") doesn't help debates such as these.
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« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2009, 12:59:15 AM »

so why is the Greek Church still in control?

The "Greek Church" does not exist. There is the Church of Greece, which does not control Jerusalem. There is the Church of Constantinople, which does not control Jerusalem. The Church of Jerusalem remains an autocephalous Church, as it has been for the past 1500 years, and it controls its own territory. I'm not saying this to be pedantic, but to identify churches with ethnicity ("Greeks belong to 'the Greek Church'") doesn't help debates such as these.
She is right about this one.  As I posted about, Constantinople made sure the Patriarchate of Jerusalem paid for his lack of Omogeneia over the whole Bulgarian issue.

All the Greeks in Palestine are from Greece or Cyprus.  The schools that the Patriarchate runs are run for Greeks from Greece: the local Arabs only gained access when, during the Intifadah, the Greeks stopped coming (they teach the Arabs Greek from textbooks from the Greek Ministry of Education, so they "can go to school.").  It is the Phanariots-all 500 or so of them in Palestine (there being no local Greek population)-who identify the Church with ethnicity.  And that's the Greek flag they are waving.
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« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2009, 02:33:24 AM »

Quote
Romanian for DL was explicitely banned.  There were no Romanian bishops.
There were not only Romanian bishops, but even metropolitans, such as Veniamin Costachi. I am talking about the Phanariot period (1711-1821).
Romanian has been continuously used in the cult since the end of the seventeenth century, not everywhere, but gaining more and more space, as time passed.

U
Quote
ncanonical how?  Bessarabia was part of the Russian empire (in fact, the creation of the Russian empire).  The original bishops of Moldavia in the early days were from the Rus' in Galicia, in opposition to Constantinople appointing the bishops.  How legal the annexation by the empire is a different question.  Btw, the Russian forced their will on the Patriarchate of Jerusalem by preventing funds coming from Bessarabia, where the Phanariots had set up estates which raked the incocme into Jerusalem.]Uncanonical how?  Bessarabia was part of the Russian empire (in fact, the creation of the Russian empire).  The original bishops of Moldavia in the early days were from the Rus' in Galicia, in opposition to Constantinople appointing the bishops.  How legal the annexation by the empire is a different question.  Btw, the Russian forced their will on the Patriarchate of Jerusalem by preventing funds coming from Bessarabia, where the Phanariots had set up estates which raked the incocme into Jerusalem.
Uncanonical in all ways, since the territory between Prut and Nistru, Galitzia and the Black Sea had always been the canonical territory of the metropolitans of Moldova, residing first in Suceava, afterwards in Iasi, sees that have never been part of either the Kiev or the Moscow Churches.
So, what do you think of the way the Russians treated the Georgian church, which is more important than the church of Moldova?

« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 02:34:36 AM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2009, 02:52:05 AM »

It's true that the Polish Kingdom's Orthodox Church was under the rule of Moldovan bishops but I think that for the Galicia the situation changed with the restoration of the Halicz archeparchy in 1371 by the patriarch of Constantinople under threats of king Kazimierz the Great of Poland( that if we did not do this he would forcibly convert the Galicjans to Roman Catholicism).
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« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2009, 06:17:54 AM »

"The Russians Are Coming" to rescue the Holy Land?
Oh I see what these "Missions" are really about now. Thanks.
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« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2009, 06:40:21 AM »

"The Russians Are Coming" to rescue the Holy Land?
Oh I see what these "Missions" are really about now. Thanks.

Nope.  The Russian Ecclesiastical Mission has an historical mission to care for a small number of churches from tsarist days and monasteries in the Holy Land.  It does not run parishes.

The new post-Perestroika Russian Orthodox Christian immigrants of Jewish blood, between 150,000 and up to 300,000, are NOT the responsibility of the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission.  They are integrated into the Patriatrchate of Jerusalem which has created  a special department for them.  Their parish churches belong to the Patriarchate and not to the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission.

Given the number of Russian immigrants, now the Orthodox majority in the Holy Land, they will have an increasing role in the life of the Patriarchate.



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« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2009, 07:03:43 AM »

"The Russians Are Coming" to rescue the Holy Land?
Oh I see what these "Missions" are really about now. Thanks.

Nope.  The Russian Ecclesiastical Mission has an historical mission to care for a small number of churches from tsarist days and monasteries in the Holy Land.  It does not run parishes.

The new post-Perestroika Russian Orthodox Christian immigrants of Jewish blood, between 150,000 and up to 300,000, are NOT the responsibility of the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission.  They are integrated into the Patriatrchate of Jerusalem which has created  a special department for them.  Their parish churches belong to the Patriarchate and not to the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission.

Given the number of Russian immigrants, now the Orthodox majority in the Holy Land, they will have an increasing role in the life of the Patriarchate.
But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?
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« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2009, 07:24:56 AM »

But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?

The right of return is exercised by virtue of Jewish ethnicity.  Russian Orthodox Christians of Jewish ancestry do not enter a religion on the immigration application.

"It has been estimated that in the past twenty years about 300,000 avowed non-Jews and even practicing Christians have entered Israel from the former Soviet Union on the basis of being a grandchild of a Jew or by being married to a Jew."

Source  ::  Law of Return
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
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« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2009, 07:28:57 AM »

But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?

The right of return is exercised by virtue of Jewish ethnicity.  Russian Orthodox Christians do not enter a religon on the immigration aplication.

"It has been estimated that in the past twenty years about 300,000 avowed non-Jews and even practicing Christians have entered Israel from the former Soviet Union on the basis of being a grandchild of a Jew or by being married to a Jew."

Source  ::  Law of Return
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Thats a bit of selective reading isn't it Irish Hermit? From the same page you quote:

Quote
Eligibility requirements
Those who immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return are immediately entitled to citizenship. However, differences of opinion have arisen as to whether a person who claims citizenship under the Law of Return should be automatically registered as "Jewish" for census purposes. According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism. Orthodox Jews do not recognize conversions performed by Reform or Conservative Judaism. However, the Law provides that any Jew regardless of affiliation may migrate to Israel and claim citizenship.

Originally, the Law of Return was restricted to Jews only. A 1970 amendment, however, stated that, "The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law... are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
Anyway, perhaps the Russian Jews are more likely to convert to Orthodox Christianity once they get to Israel as they must have such a huge respect for us since the pogroms in Russia.
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« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2009, 07:50:25 AM »

But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?

The right of return is exercised by virtue of Jewish ethnicity.  Russian Orthodox Christians do not enter a religon on the immigration aplication.

"It has been estimated that in the past twenty years about 300,000 avowed non-Jews and even practicing Christians have entered Israel from the former Soviet Union on the basis of being a grandchild of a Jew or by being married to a Jew."

Source  ::  Law of Return
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Thats a bit of selective reading isn't it Irish Hermit? From the same page you quote:

Quote
Eligibility requirements
Those who immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return are immediately entitled to citizenship. However, differences of opinion have arisen as to whether a person who claims citizenship under the Law of Return should be automatically registered as "Jewish" for census purposes. According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism. Orthodox Jews do not recognize conversions performed by Reform or Conservative Judaism. However, the Law provides that any Jew regardless of affiliation may migrate to Israel and claim citizenship.

Originally, the Law of Return was restricted to Jews only. A 1970 amendment, however, stated that, "The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law... are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
Anyway, perhaps the Russian Jews are more likely to convert to Orthodox Christianity once they get to Israel as they must have such a huge respect for us since the pogroms in Russia.

If you read what you quoted, you will see the question concerns not immigration but the Israeli census surveys, two quite different things.  I don't intend tro argue this with you.  As an immigration agent since 1995 for both Jews and Russians (immigrating here from both Israel and from Russia)  I feel I am sufficiently versed to offer accurate information.  But I realise that your renowned predilection for debate will not want to let this rest for at least another 10 messages.   laugh

Quote
Anyway, perhaps the Russian Jews are more likely to convert to Orthodox Christianity once they get to Israel as they must have such a huge respect for us since the pogroms in Russia.

If you read the history of the Jerusalem Patriarchate written by Saint Raphael of Brooklyn, you will lean of the atrocities perpetrated again and again by the Greek Patriarchs against the indigenous Christians of Jerusalem, imprisonment, banishment, extermination, affliction, persecution..
http://www.frmichel.najim.net/brotherenglish.pdf
 
 
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« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2009, 09:39:28 AM »

Did you know that President Theodore Roosovelt told St. Tsar Nicholas to stop the pogroms?:
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« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2009, 09:49:36 AM »

Did you know that President Theodore Roosovelt told St. Tsar Nicholas to stop the pogroms?:

I'm curious why you think Fr. Ambrose, a subject of Her Majesty, would care what an America president had to say.

Btw, as the US Senate pointed out at the time, Czar Nicholas wasn't the only Orthodox Russia dealing with Jews:
Came across this in the Congressional record (there's also an interesting summary on religious regulation in Russia)

Quote
The rule in Russia has always been toleration, though limited by an arrangement which seems to a stranger very peculiar....This regulation seems rather the result, on the whole, of organized indifference than of zeal, its main purpose being undoubtedly to keep down any troublesome religious fervor.  The great body of the Russian peasantry, when left to themselves, seem to be remarkably free from any spirit of fanatical hostility toward religious systems differeing from their own...While some priests have undoubtedly done much to create a more zealous feeling, it was especially noted during the fierce persecution of the Jews early in the present reign [Nicholas II] that in several cases the orthodox village priests not only gave shelter to Israelites seeking to escape harm, but exerted themselves to put an end to the persecutions.  So, too, during the past few days the papers have contained a statement that a priest very widely known and highly esteemed, to whom miraculous powers are quite generally attributed-[St.] Father John, of Cronstadt [sic]-has sent some of the charity money, of which he is almoner, to certain Jewish orphanages under the control of Israelites.
http://books.google.ro/books?id=rHoe7PlyK_YC&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=John+Cronstadt+Orthodox+Isrealites&source=bl&ots=75uM_s3jxo&sig=wvf3KdN0UJ6ltdHwdyrwO9gWww4&hl=ro&ei=ynb5SviCN8yknQeAkY38DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2009, 10:12:52 AM »

And what makes him think the decrees of a Saint Bishop who told his flock to Commune with the Anglicans when no Orthodox Priest was available should mean anything to me? An error, I might add, which he only corrected because of pressure from "the Greeks". Whereas "the Russians" who consecrated him saw no problem.
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« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2009, 12:21:11 PM »

And what makes him think the decrees of a Saint Bishop who told his flock to Commune with the Anglicans when no Orthodox Priest was available should mean anything to me? An error, I might add, which he only corrected because of pressure from "the Greeks". Whereas "the Russians" who consecrated him saw no problem.

http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/meletios_lang.jpg

I thought you were in communion with the rest of the Church who venerate St. Tikhon.  Sorry for the mistake.
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« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2009, 01:18:54 PM »

I thought you were in communion with the rest of the Church who venerate St. Tikhon.  Sorry for the mistake.
I was waiting for the righteous outrage.
Are Saints infallible are they? Or is it only Russian ones and those consecrated by them?
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« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2009, 02:00:20 PM »

All the Greeks in Palestine are from Greece or Cyprus.  The schools that the Patriarchate runs are run for Greeks from Greece: the local Arabs only gained access when, during the Intifadah, the Greeks stopped coming (they teach the Arabs Greek from textbooks from the Greek Ministry of Education, so they "can go to school.").  It is the Phanariots-all 500 or so of them in Palestine (there being no local Greek population)-who identify the Church with ethnicity.  And that's the Greek flag they are waving.

Yes, they're nearly all from Greece or Cyprus, they often exclude non-Greeks from their ranks, and the way they adorn Orthodox churches in the Holy Land with the flag of the republic of Greece is absolutely disgusting. However, the Church of Jerusalem is the Church of Jerusalem. The "Greek Church" has not come to the Holy Land and replaced the "Palestinian Church." The problem are the ethnic Greeks who think it is acceptable to exclude non-Greeks from the leadership of the Church, but the Church of Jerusalem will remain Church of Jerusalem whether its leaders are Greek, Arab or Kenyan.

By speaking of "Greek Church" taking over the Holy Land, you're making the exact same mistake as these so-called 'Phanariots.'
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« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2009, 02:13:09 PM »

But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?

ozgeorge, if you actually visited Israel, you'd find that the vast majority of Israelis have no interest in Judaism besides an often-casual ancestral link. Most young Israelis I've met find solace in Eastern religions like Buddhism and Hinduism (India being the most popular travel destination after military service). The bookstores are full of World Religions literature.

The Russians who immigrated to Israel in the early 1990s are quite open that it was an economic decision, not one based on feelings of Zionist brotherhood. (Indeed, I've met numerous Russian Israelis who just don't want to mingle with the rest of the nation.) Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.
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« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2009, 02:22:13 PM »

Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:
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« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2009, 02:27:03 PM »

All the Greeks in Palestine are from Greece or Cyprus.  The schools that the Patriarchate runs are run for Greeks from Greece: the local Arabs only gained access when, during the Intifadah, the Greeks stopped coming (they teach the Arabs Greek from textbooks from the Greek Ministry of Education, so they "can go to school.").  It is the Phanariots-all 500 or so of them in Palestine (there being no local Greek population)-who identify the Church with ethnicity.  And that's the Greek flag they are waving.

Yes, they're nearly all from Greece or Cyprus, they often exclude non-Greeks from their ranks, and the way they adorn Orthodox churches in the Holy Land with the flag of the republic of Greece is absolutely disgusting. However, the Church of Jerusalem is the Church of Jerusalem. The "Greek Church" has not come to the Holy Land and replaced the "Palestinian Church."

For all intents and purposes, it has.

Quote
The problem are the ethnic Greeks who think it is acceptable to exclude non-Greeks from the leadership of the Church, but the Church of Jerusalem will remain Church of Jerusalem whether its leaders are Greek, Arab or Kenyan.

By speaking of "Greek Church" taking over the Holy Land, you're making the exact same mistake as these so-called 'Phanariots.'

No, I know Omogeneia when I see it.
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« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2009, 02:28:56 PM »

Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:


Hmmm.  George, how old's the picture?  How many who would have seen it in person are still living (Most immigrants are living).  You seem rather upset that the Jews aren't holding grudges.
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« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2009, 02:34:35 PM »

Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:


Hmmm.  George, how old's the picture?  How many who would have seen it in person are still living (Most immigrants are living).  You seem rather upset that the Jews aren't holding grudges.
Yeah, they're so over it. That must be why Fiddler on the Roof is still so popular.
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« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2009, 02:36:30 PM »

Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:


Hmmm.  George, how old's the picture?  How many who would have seen it in person are still living (Most immigrants are living).  You seem rather upset that the Jews aren't holding grudges.
Yeah, they're so over it. That must be why Fiddler on the Roof is still so popular.
...and the Russian Orthodox Church in Palestine is becoming more popular.

I've know a number of Russian Jews here in the US that were so Russian that I didn't know for years that they were ethnically Jewish.  In the US the Russian Enclaves are almost with few exceptions Jewish enclaves.
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« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2009, 02:42:41 PM »

Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:


Hmmm.  George, how old's the picture?  How many who would have seen it in person are still living (Most immigrants are living).  You seem rather upset that the Jews aren't holding grudges.
Yeah, they're so over it. That must be why Fiddler on the Roof is still so popular.
...and the Russian Orthodox Church in Palestine is becoming more popular.
Must be the Missions to Jerusalem. Although I wonder where your statistics about the popularity of the Russian Orthodox Church in Palestine has come from when this thread started with a news article about a death threat written in Hebrew on a Russian Cathedral in Jerusalem. Perhaps you just have a different idea of what "popular" means:



I've know a number of Russian Jews here in the US that were so Russian that I didn't know for years that they were ethnically Jewish.
Really? You mean racial profiling doesn't work?
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« Reply #87 on: December 30, 2009, 02:42:59 PM »

Yeah, they're so over it. That must be why Fiddler on the Roof is still so popular.

How many of the Russian Jews who emigrated to Israel in the early 1990s ever heard Fiddler on the Roof? You have to understand that 1) few Russians learnt much about the pogroms during the Soviet era, and 2) the Russians going to Israel were overwhelmingly thinking "Hoorah, we'll be in a country with jobs", not "Judaism is great and the Russian Orthodox Church is bad."
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« Reply #88 on: December 30, 2009, 02:45:42 PM »

But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?

ozgeorge, if you actually visited Israel, you'd find that the vast majority of Israelis have no interest in Judaism besides an often-casual ancestral link. Most young Israelis I've met find solace in Eastern religions like Buddhism and Hinduism (India being the most popular travel destination after military service). The bookstores are full of World Religions literature.

The Russians who immigrated to Israel in the early 1990s are quite open that it was an economic decision, not one based on feelings of Zionist brotherhood. (Indeed, I've met numerous Russian Israelis who just don't want to mingle with the rest of the nation.) Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

I hired a Jewish lady from Russia to teach me Russian a few years back.  I had this Slavonic Bible, and showed it to her.  She knew exactly what it was and also taught me a bit of Slavonic.  She told me that her family used to attend Liturgy on feast days, particularly Pascha, when they were in Russia.  I thought that was rather unusual.  She said that it was not, and that many Jews attended Russian Orthodox Churches in Russia.
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« Reply #89 on: December 30, 2009, 02:46:58 PM »

Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:


Hmmm.  George, how old's the picture?  How many who would have seen it in person are still living (Most immigrants are living).  You seem rather upset that the Jews aren't holding grudges.
Yeah, they're so over it. That must be why Fiddler on the Roof is still so popular.
...and the Russian Orthodox Church in Palestine is becoming more popular.
Must be the Missions to Jerusalem. Although I wonder where your statistics about the popularity has come from when this thread started with a news article about a death threat written in Hebrew on a Russian Cathedral in Jerusalem. Perhaps you just have a different idea of what "popular" means:



I've know a number of Russian Jews here in the US that were so Russian that I didn't know for years that they were ethnically Jewish.
Really? You mean racial profiling doesn't work?

I don't know: you were able to identify that the Jew (itself profiling) who wrote on the Cathedral was a Russian Jew, and not a Mizrahi, who form the majority of the Hebrew population and have their own issues with Russian Jews coming.
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