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Author Topic: Oh Those Russians  (Read 17884 times) Average Rating: 0
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #90 on: December 30, 2009, 02:49:34 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 02:49:46 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: December 30, 2009, 03:08:28 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
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« Reply #92 on: December 30, 2009, 03:18:29 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! Cheesy
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« Reply #93 on: December 30, 2009, 03:31:15 PM »

ozgeorge,

I'm not sure what the big problem is with Russians in the Holy Land. As someone said, if the Patriarch of Jerusalem doesn't have a problem with them, then why do you? They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Are you saying that the Russians in the Holy Land should go elsewhere? I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish or what you are arguing. First your talking about Jerusalem and then pogroms and popularity so I really don't know what you want to done in this thread. I don't really see anything in this thread other than trying to get across that Russians are bad or something.
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« Reply #94 on: December 30, 2009, 03:38:00 PM »

They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
I think I'd like to see something from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to support this claim other than a post on a discussion forum with nothing to back it up.
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« Reply #95 on: December 30, 2009, 03:43:09 PM »

Ozgeorge, I don't pretend to understand everything in this thread, but Russian Jews, they are everywhere  in this part of the world. You'd be surprised to know that, when discussing religion, most of them lapse very naturally into Russian Orthodox lingo-indeed far more naturally than Jewish terminology. I've never met a one amongst the multitudes of recent immigrants who has expressed any animosity towards the Orthodox Church per se.

ETA: I lied. I did meet one Russian Jewish woman who complained to me that the ROC was "monoethnic" and therefore, hard for her to penetrate as a (poor) Russian Jew. However, she was wearing on her finger a Russian Orthodox "spasi i sokhrani" ring and, although she had left the ROC informally, she was, nevertheless, attending another Christian denomination and was not a practising Jew.
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« Reply #96 on: December 30, 2009, 03:50:27 PM »

They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
I think I'd like to see something from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to support this claim other than a post on a discussion forum with nothing to back it up.

If you want to see something official from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, go to Israel and see the antimensia which lie on the altars of the Russian churches in the Holy Land.

You will see that every one is signed by the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

I suppose there are three possibilities:

1.  The Russians have been paying him enormous amounts of money to bribe him to supply the antimensia

2.  The Russians have threatened the life of the Patriarch if he doesn't sign them

3.  The Patriarch issues the antimensia to the Russians at his own goodwill and pleasure.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 03:51:12 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #97 on: December 30, 2009, 03:59:59 PM »

2.  The Russians have threatened the life of the Patriarch if he doesn't sign them

IMO that's the most propable one.
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« Reply #98 on: December 30, 2009, 04:08:04 PM »

They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
I think I'd like to see something from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to support this claim other than a post on a discussion forum with nothing to back it up.

What would make you think that it is not the case? Do you have anything from the Patriarchate saying otherwise? I want to see something that proves your case that the Patriarch does not want the Russians there. Have you read something that would suggest the Patriarch has a problem with the Russians?
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« Reply #99 on: December 30, 2009, 04:42:13 PM »

They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
I think I'd like to see something from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to support this claim other than a post on a discussion forum with nothing to back it up.

Why is the onus on others to demonstrate that what has been the status quo for over 150 years (as demonstrated by the websites you yourself cited) is a problem for anyone besides yourself?
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« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2009, 04:48:17 PM »





The two bishops in the photos in case you do not know is the Patriarch of Jerusalem and Bishop Peter of Cleavland (ROCOR) who happen to be friends which was taken during the ROCOR pilgimage in 2007. If the Patriarch had a problem with these Russians, why meet with them in a loving manner and give them their blessing? ROCOR bishops have also concelebrated with Jurusalem bishops (I can get a photo of that also if you wish).

I really don't see what your problem with the Russians are.
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« Reply #101 on: December 30, 2009, 05:04:14 PM »

ozgeorge,

I can't help feeling that your goal is just to cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble, and it seems rather inconceivable.

This whole thread was started by you to promote the idea that the Russians are doing something shady in the Holy Land.  To date, you've been unable to provide any evidence of that, and yet you continue to make snide and uncharitable remarks, and seem disappointed when you find out that people aren't bitter and aren't holding historical grudges.  Why?

The fact of the matter is, unless you have evidence that something shady *is* going on, it is uncharitable and slanderous of you to imply that it is.  A person is not guilty until proven innocent; they are innocent until proven guilty.

It would be ridiculous of me to say that you beat little children and torture kittens and then insist that until you can somehow provide evidence that you've never done that, we should all assume that you  have.

So likewise, when all the evidence seems to point to nothing bad going on, can you give it a rest and stop bringing up really old historical pictures of pogroms, ignoring the many positive examples of Russian/Jewish interaction, and making bitter and sarcastic remarks?

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« Reply #102 on: December 30, 2009, 06:15:57 PM »

ozgeorge,

I'm not sure what the big problem is with Russians in the Holy Land. As someone said, if the Patriarch of Jerusalem doesn't have a problem with them, then why do you? They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Are you saying that the Russians in the Holy Land should go elsewhere? I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish or what you are arguing. First your talking about Jerusalem and then pogroms and popularity so I really don't know what you want to done in this thread. I don't really see anything in this thread other than trying to get across that Russians are bad or something.

I agree with you. There seems to be something that is really bugging Ozgeorge and that thing, whatever it is, is different than the issue at hand. I hope and pray that this thing will resolve itself and that Ozgeorge will get better.
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« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2009, 07:19:00 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! Cheesy

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
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« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2009, 07:26:04 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! Cheesy

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.
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« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2009, 07:33:52 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! Cheesy

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
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« Reply #106 on: December 30, 2009, 07:39:03 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! Cheesy

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
Why the histrionics? Who is taking delight in what has happened to the Russian Cathedral? I am merely questioning isalmisry's earlier point on this thread that the Russian Orthodox are "popular" in Israel and Palestine. Clearly, they are not.
Just chillax.
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« Reply #107 on: December 30, 2009, 07:54:07 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! Cheesy

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
Why the histrionics? Who is taking delight in what has happened to the Russian Cathedral? I am merely questioning isalmisry's earlier point on this thread that the Russian Orthodox are "popular" in Israel and Palestine. Clearly, they are not.
Just chillax.

And I had believed that something serious was going on that had caused you to behave so--kind of reflected pain. Oh well, clearly you are unrepentant and intend to continue to be ugly and mean. So, prayers are still in order: Lord have mercy on Thy servant George.
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« Reply #108 on: December 30, 2009, 08:03:23 PM »

I too hope you're feeling better, George. I know from sad personal experience that when I am deeply troubled about some personal issue I tend to lash out at others. It requires constant humility and contrition to surrender to the harshness of reality sometimes.
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« Reply #109 on: December 30, 2009, 08:04:37 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! Cheesy

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
Why the histrionics? Who is taking delight in what has happened to the Russian Cathedral? I am merely questioning isalmisry's earlier point on this thread that the Russian Orthodox are "popular" in Israel and Palestine. Clearly, they are not.
Just chillax.

And I had believed that something serious was going on that had caused you to behave so--kind of reflected pain. Oh well, clearly you are unrepentant and intend to continue to be ugly and mean. So, prayers are still in order: Lord have mercy on Thy servant George.
Thanks for your prayers for my ugly meanness. You're such a good friend.

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« Reply #110 on: December 30, 2009, 08:22:38 PM »

When I read some of the threads on this forum, I wonder why I didn't become a Buddhist!  laugh
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« Reply #111 on: December 30, 2009, 08:22:55 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! Cheesy

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
Why the histrionics? Who is taking delight in what has happened to the Russian Cathedral? I am merely questioning isalmisry's earlier point on this thread that the Russian Orthodox are "popular" in Israel and Palestine. Clearly, they are not.
Just chillax.

Well, it is the Greek clergy who are always moaning that they are being spat on in Israel.  How popular is that!?
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« Reply #112 on: December 30, 2009, 08:26:54 PM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! Cheesy

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
Why the histrionics? Who is taking delight in what has happened to the Russian Cathedral? I am merely questioning isalmisry's earlier point on this thread that the Russian Orthodox are "popular" in Israel and Palestine. Clearly, they are not.
Just chillax.

Well, it is the Greek clergy who are always moaning that they are being spat on in Israel.  How popular is that!?
Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?
I know you think the Russian will eventually take over the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and ialmisry believes this also because he thinks Russian Orthodoxy is popular among the Israelis, but the reality is that neither the Greeks nor the Russians are popular.
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem. Isn't the upcoming Russian takeover of Constantinople which you often go on about enough for you ?
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« Reply #113 on: December 30, 2009, 08:35:28 PM »

Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?

It is the way you structured this thread in your opening post which has taken us down this road.

Quote
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

What a strange view of it!  THESE ARE  JEWS who have come from the old Soviet Union to the Holy Land.    It will be the JEWS reclaiming the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.   It will be a JEW who will sit on the cathedra and rule the Church of Jerusalem.  May it happen tomorrow!   May the Holy City cease to be ruled by foreign imported clergy and may it become Jewish again!  May the sound of Hebrew psalms reverberate in our churches.

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« Reply #114 on: December 30, 2009, 08:40:52 PM »

Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?

It is the way you structured this thread in your opening post which has taken us down this road.
if you say so.

Quote
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

What a strange view of it!  THESE ARE  JEWS who have come from the old Soviet Union to the Holy Land.    It will be the JEWS reclaiming the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.   It will be a JEW who will sit on the cathedra and rule the Church of Jerusalem.  May it happen tomorrow!   May the Holy City cease to be ruled by foreign imported clergy and may it become Jewish again!  May the sound of Hebrew psalms reverberate in our churches.
Russian Jews isn't it? You said so yourself. Non-Russian Jews won't cut it for you. But personally, I'd rather see Christians on the throne of Jerusalem.

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« Reply #115 on: December 30, 2009, 08:49:53 PM »

Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?

It is the way you structured this thread in your opening post which has taken us down this road.
if you say so.

Quote
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

What a strange view of it!  THESE ARE  JEWS who have come from the old Soviet Union to the Holy Land.    It will be the JEWS reclaiming the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.   It will be a JEW who will sit on the cathedra and rule the Church of Jerusalem.  May it happen tomorrow!   May the Holy City cease to be ruled by foreign imported clergy and may it become Jewish again!  May the sound of Hebrew psalms reverberate in our churches.
Russian Jews isn't it? You said so yourself. Non-Russian Jews won't cut it for you. But personally, I'd rather see Christians on the throne of Jerusalem.

What have you got against Russian Jews? 

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?
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« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2009, 08:59:46 PM »

But personally, I'd rather see Christians on the throne of Jerusalem.

Well, obviously a religious Jew won't be on the throne but a Christian just like St. James the Just, St. Simeon, and the other ethnicly Jewish patriarchs who ruled the throne in the beginning of the Church. What do you think? How about a Palestinian? Would you have a problem with that? Does it have to be a Greek? Does the Greek flag need to fly in Palestine?
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« Reply #117 on: December 30, 2009, 09:02:41 PM »

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?

Well, I also think that Palestinians also should be able to sit on the throne since it is also their home, not to mention that they make up the majority of Orthodox under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.
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« Reply #118 on: December 30, 2009, 09:21:10 PM »

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?

Well, I also think that Palestinians also should be able to sit on the throne since it is also their home, not to mention that they make up the majority of Orthodox under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are the Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate -- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."
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« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2009, 09:31:11 PM »

Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?

It is the way you structured this thread in your opening post which has taken us down this road.
if you say so.

Quote
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

What a strange view of it!  THESE ARE  JEWS who have come from the old Soviet Union to the Holy Land.    It will be the JEWS reclaiming the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.   It will be a JEW who will sit on the cathedra and rule the Church of Jerusalem.  May it happen tomorrow!   May the Holy City cease to be ruled by foreign imported clergy and may it become Jewish again!  May the sound of Hebrew psalms reverberate in our churches.
Russian Jews isn't it? You said so yourself. Non-Russian Jews won't cut it for you. But personally, I'd rather see Christians on the throne of Jerusalem.

What have you got against Russian Jews?  
Nothing. I just think a Christian should be on the Throne of Jerusalem.

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?
So the Palestinians have no right to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem? Why not?

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?  
What makes you think that? I would be quite happy for any Roman to sit on the throne of Constantinople. This would include all the Balkans (the Romoi), the Arabs (the Rum), and anyone else who is a descendant of those St. Constantine the Great granted the title "Roman" to.

Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?
Jerusalem should be ruled by Jews, the Throne of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem should be ruled by a Christian.
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« Reply #120 on: December 30, 2009, 09:32:15 PM »

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?

Well, I also think that Palestinians also should be able to sit on the throne since it is also their home, not to mention that they make up the majority of Orthodox under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are the Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate -- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


Forgive me if I'm not understanding the issues, but why should race and numbers play any part in the matter instead of the right person for the job; seeing as this situation is a mix of Jews and Palestinians in any case?
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« Reply #121 on: December 30, 2009, 09:41:08 PM »

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?  
What makes you think that? I would be quite happy for any Roman to sit on the throne of Constantinople. This would include all the Balkans (the Romoi), the Arabs (the Rum), and anyone else who is a descendant of those St. Constantine the Great granted the title "Roman" to.

This is the stupidest theory I have ever heard. What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ? Most of us from the area have history burned into our genes: we have not appreciated nor will we ever abide Hellenization in any of its forms. Let me say it more plainly: I like Greek people and food and dances; I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.
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« Reply #122 on: December 30, 2009, 09:47:29 PM »

[Nothing. I just think a Christian should be on the Throne of Jerusalem.
So you don't believe that the Russian Christian Jews in Israel are Christians?

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?
Quote
So the Palestinians have no right to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem? Why not?

The reason there has been no Palestinian elected as Patriarch is because of a repressive Greek policy of making sure that any Arab vocations are channelled into the village priesthood, that no Arabs bceome monks and no Arabs make it into the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.   The Patriarchate and the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre are virtually one and the same.

But there are been a dramatic shift in Orthodox demographics in the Holy Land.  The Russian Christian Jews now outnumber the Arab Orthodox.   They will not want to be shunted off into the village priesthood, they will not acept being excluded from the monastic life. They will not accept exclusion by the Greeks from the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.  In short there are much better odds of getting a Jewish Patriarch elected than an Arab.   One may hope that the example of the Christian Jews will bring fresh strength to the rather passive Arab Orthodox who have accepted the hegemony of the foreign Greeks for centuries.
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« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2009, 09:48:41 PM »

Forgive me if I'm not understanding the issues, but why should race and numbers play any part in the matter instead of the right person for the job; seeing as this situation is a mix of Jews and Palestinians in any case?

I've made an attempt to answer this in the post above.
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« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2009, 09:54:07 PM »

[Nothing. I just think a Christian should be on the Throne of Jerusalem.
So you don't believe that the Russian Christian Jews in Israel are Christians?
I just don't think Russian Christin Jews exist, unless they belong to one of the Messianic Jew sects.
All Orthodox Christians are Jews- they are the True Israel.

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?
Quote
So the Palestinians have no right to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem? Why not?
The reason there has been no Palestinian elected as Patriarch is because of a repressive Greek policy of making sure that any Arab vocations are channelled into the village priesthood, that no Arabs bceome monks and no Arabs make it into the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.   The Patriarchate and the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre are virtually one and the same.
Really? I must tell that to the Archbishop of Sebastia who is a Palestinian born in Gaza.

But there are been a dramatic shift in Orthodox demographics in the Holy Land.  The Russian Christian Jews now outnumber the Arab Orthodox.  
Hooray for Russian expansion into the Holy Land!


They will not want to be shunted off into the village priesthood, they will not acept being excluded from the monastic life. They will not accept exclusion by the Greeks from the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.  In short there are much better odds of getting a Jewish Patriarch elected than an Arab.   One may hope that the example of the Christian Jews will bring fresh strength to the rather passive Arab Orthodox who have accepted the hegemony of the foreign Greeks for centuries.
I realize how important race is for you. I hope your dream of the race you want to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem and Constantinople come true for you. I disagree though, because I'm a Christian in the Orthodox Church where there is neither Jew nor Greek...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 09:56:26 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #125 on: December 30, 2009, 10:02:50 PM »


I just don't think Russian Christin Jews exist, unless they belong to one of the Messianic Jew sects.

So what term would you prefer for the Russian-speaking Jews who are Orthodox Christians and are Jews living in Israel.

Quote
All Orthodox Christians are Jews- they are the True Israel.

You're confusing replacement theology with nationality and geopraphy.   laugh

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?
Quote
So the Palestinians have no right to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem? Why not?
The reason there has been no Palestinian elected as Patriarch is because of a repressive Greek policy of making sure that any Arab vocations are channelled into the village priesthood, that no Arabs bceome monks and no Arabs make it into the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.   The Patriarchate and the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre are virtually one and the same.
Quote
Really? I must tell that to the Archbishop of Sebastia who is a Palestinian born in Gaza.

And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
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« Reply #126 on: December 30, 2009, 10:07:07 PM »

And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
I think you need to back up your defamatory claims about a Bishop of the Orthodox Church.
On second thoughts, don't bother. Anyone who thinks race should determine who should be a Bishop of the Church is hardly the kind of person I wan't to engage in discussion with.
Have a happy new year. I hope your race-based dreams come true for you.
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« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2009, 11:45:33 PM »

I realize how important race is for you. I hope your dream of the race you want to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem and Constantinople come true for you. I disagree though, because I'm a Christian in the Orthodox Church where there is neither Jew nor Greek...

I'm an Irishman.

But there must be *some* difference between Greeks and Jews since we are told that Peter was sent to preach to the Jews and Paul to the Greeks.   Wink
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« Reply #128 on: December 30, 2009, 11:49:04 PM »

And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
I think you need to back up your defamatory claims about a Bishop of the Orthodox Church.

Pshaw!  It was all over the Internet when Archimandrite Hanna expressed his approval of Palestinian suicide bombers killing Israelis.  Don't tell me the horrifed reaction from the Orthodox world was not heard in Australia.
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« Reply #129 on: December 30, 2009, 11:53:23 PM »

Anyone who thinks race should determine who should be a Bishop of the Church is hardly the kind of person I wan't to engage in discussion with.

Race seems to have been the determining factor in who becomes a bishop in the Jerusalem Church for centuries past, and prior to that also in the Syrian Church (now called Antiochian Church.)    Did not your Church even go out of communion with the Antiochians when they refused to be ruled any longer by racially chosen Greek only bishops?
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« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2009, 01:36:56 AM »

But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! Cheesy

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.
It has a Cross on it. It's all the same to the Jews.  The first thing I saw getting off the bus was swastikas all over the Episcopal church, and I was shown the bullet holes in the Greek chapel on the Mount of Olives.  Not clear at all, except anti-Christian.
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« Reply #131 on: December 31, 2009, 01:42:37 AM »

Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?

It is the way you structured this thread in your opening post which has taken us down this road.
if you say so.

Quote
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

What a strange view of it!  THESE ARE  JEWS who have come from the old Soviet Union to the Holy Land.    It will be the JEWS reclaiming the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.   It will be a JEW who will sit on the cathedra and rule the Church of Jerusalem.  May it happen tomorrow!   May the Holy City cease to be ruled by foreign imported clergy and may it become Jewish again!  May the sound of Hebrew psalms reverberate in our churches.
Russian Jews isn't it? You said so yourself. Non-Russian Jews won't cut it for you. But personally, I'd rather see Christians on the throne of Jerusalem.

What have you got against Russian Jews? 

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?
Because it is Palestinian.
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« Reply #132 on: December 31, 2009, 01:46:12 AM »

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?

Well, I also think that Palestinians also should be able to sit on the throne since it is also their home, not to mention that they make up the majority of Orthodox under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are the Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate -- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


Only in Palestine. The Patriarchate also includes Jordan (and now seems to be claiming jurisdicion in Qatar), which has about 300,000 Arab Orthodox.
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« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2009, 02:17:43 AM »

And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
I think you need to back up your defamatory claims about a Bishop of the Orthodox Church.

Pshaw!  It was all over the Internet when Archimandrite Hanna expressed his approval of Palestinian suicide bombers killing Israelis.  Don't tell me the horrifed reaction from the Orthodox world was not heard in Australia.
I think you are spending too much time on the internet. That's the problem.
He was arrested and interrogated by the Israelis and no charges were laid because the claims were false. It was plain and simple persecution of a Palestinian by the Israelis to try and prevent him being consecrated Bishop. Now if you have evidence to the contrary, kindly present it or post a public apology to Archbishop Theodosios for your libelous claim.
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« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2009, 02:25:54 AM »

What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I don't have to sweetie:
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/a/R/u/m/
In fact your own Patriarchate of Antioch calls itself "Rum Orthodox"
Apology accepted for your inane comment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 02:36:15 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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