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« Reply #135 on: December 31, 2009, 03:27:32 AM »

Quote
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I, for one, call myself "român".
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« Reply #136 on: December 31, 2009, 04:08:49 AM »

And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
I think you need to back up your defamatory claims about a Bishop of the Orthodox Church.

Pshaw!  It was all over the Internet when Archimandrite Hanna expressed his approval of Palestinian suicide bombers killing Israelis.  Don't tell me the horrifed reaction from the Orthodox world was not heard in Australia.
I think you are spending too much time on the internet. That's the problem.
He was arrested and interrogated by the Israelis and no charges were laid because the claims were false. It was plain and simple persecution of a Palestinian by the Israelis to try and prevent him being consecrated Bishop. Now if you have evidence to the contrary, kindly present it or post a public apology to Archbishop Theodosios for your libelous claim.

Many lectures and publications at the Zayed Centre praise suicide bombings. For example, on June 19, 2002, Father Atallah Hanna, the spokesman of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, spoke at the Zayed Centre, ( http://www.zccf.org.ae/e_TitleDescription.asp?Tid=43 ). According to the Zayed Centre's summary of the lecture, Father Hanna stated that "the conduct of the Zionist movement is characterized by its racist nature, and that it is completely in contradiction with the Muslim and Christian values… He also denounced the Judaization process carried out by the Israeli government for the city of Jerusalem. In this regard, he mentioned the measures taken by Israel to empty the city of Muslims and Christian and replace them [with] Jewish settlers. As an eye witness of [the] Jenin massacre, he said that it had been the most horrible tragedy ever perpetrated against humanity… Answering a question on the Orthodox Church’s stance as regards suicide bombings, he said that Palestinian martyrdom is part [of] the Intifada which has to remain kindled until a resolution is achieved for the Palestinian cause… Introducing the speaker, prior to the lecture, Mr. Mohammed Khalifa Al-Murar, Executive Director of ZCCF, said that Father Atallah has an honorable record in his struggle against the Israeli occupation." A report about Father Atallah Hanna's speech appeared in the Gulf News the following day. The report quotes Father Hanna as saying that "political parties in Palestine agree to the continuation of the Intifada, which includes different approaches of struggle. Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued Intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes… We are part of the Intifada, so you don't expect us to keep distance and watch. We are in the struggle, whether it's martyrdom or any other means, we are part of it."

Shortly after his appearance at the Zayed Centre, Father Hanna was dismissed from his position as spokesman for the Church. In response, Father Hanna said "The decision to fire [me] is illegal, illegitimate, and baseless… I will not comply with the decision and I will carry out my daily duties as spokesman for the community without considering [this] decision." In fact, Father Hanna has continued to present himself as spokesman of the Church, and continued to publicly support suicide bombings.

http://www.memritv.org/report/en/906.htm


-oOo-

Police Question Greek Orthodox Priest on Ties to Terror
Archimandrite Hana Atalla of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate was questioned by police on Thursday on suspicion of supporting terror and traveling illegally to Syria and Lebanon, THE JERUSALEM POST reported. Police spokesman Gil Kleiman said Atalla is suspected of having met with Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah during a recent visit to Syria and Lebanon, where he allegedly expressed support for terrorist organizations. He is also suspected of calling on Christians to participate in the Palestinian uprising.

"Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes," Atalla said in a speech in Dubai on June 20. A report in Itim said he also appeared recently on Hizbullah's television station.

The Patriarchate, in an official statement, denied that Atalla is a spokesperson for the church. Bishop Aristorchus, a spokesperson for the Patriarchate, said Atalla is a clerk in the Arabic department of the Patriarchate's secretariat. He added that the Patriarch does not agree Attla's statements. The Patriarch also said that Atalla was not given permission to travel to Syria and Lebanon.

http://www.nyjtimes.com/Heritage/News/August1902.htm



-oOo-

Arab Christian Suicide Bombers?

Jan. 15….(Islamic News) Orthodox Church spokesman Father Attallah Hanna caused great controversy last year with his comments in support of Palestinian suicide bombers, saying, "Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes." The sentiment that brought these extreme comments from one leader appears to have spread to other Christian religious leaders. Now, however, Father Hanna is going beyond verbal support for Palestinian suicide bombers and is even suggesting that Christians take an active role. Father Hanna met with a Palestinian delegation this week in which he praised the "martyrdom operations", calling on Palestinian Christians and Arabs to do everything in their power to resist the Israeli occupation. Hanna said the men who carry out acts of martyrdom were not "suicide bombers" or "terrorists" but heroes and encouraged Christians and Muslims to work together to liberate Palestine. Catholic Father Johanna Qaltah echoed Father Hanna's comments adding that martyrdom is a duty and an obligation for all Arab citizens, Muslims or Christians, in defense of their land and honor. Also adding his support to suicide bombers is Ikram Lamaei, Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Anglican Church in Egypt and professor of comparative religion. Lamaei would like to see Yasser Arafat's Fatah group train Christians to become martyrs in joint Islamic-Christian operations. Lamei believes this would send a message to the world that Palestinians and Arabs are united, regardless of religious differences. According to some reports, leaders of Christian sects in Egypt as well as leading Coptic political activists have endorsed the idea of joint Christian-Islamic martyr brigades and praised these leaders for their recent statements. Those Christian leaders calling for such action believe it is important to distinguish between Western and Eastern Christians. According to one leader, unless Eastern Christians embrace the Arab Islamic civilization, it will not have a future. Israel, however, has formally protested the remarks of Father Hanna to the Jerusalem Orthodox Church, accusing him of supporting terrorist operations and posing a threat to national security.

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« Reply #137 on: December 31, 2009, 04:15:01 AM »

What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I don't have to sweetie:
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/a/R/u/m/
In fact your own Patriarchate of Antioch calls itself "Rum Orthodox"

Which does not mean Rome Italy but Greek Constantinople.
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« Reply #138 on: December 31, 2009, 05:34:04 AM »

Only in Palestine. The Patriarchate also includes Jordan (and now seems to be claiming jurisdicion in Qatar), which has about 300,000 Arab Orthodox.

http://www.qorthodox.org/english/qatar_church.htm

A brief history of the Jerusalem Patriarchate parish in Qatar.

They are on the New Calendar which is surprising for Jerusalem. 
http://www.qorthodox.org/english/home_page_4.htm

God bless them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 05:39:40 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: December 31, 2009, 06:39:21 AM »

Irish Hermit. Once again you are the voice of the enemies of the Orthodox Church. Here's the truth, and when you read it, why not crawl back into your gossip sewer.

  Crimes against Christianity
http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/crimes_against_christianity/42.htm

      Appeal on behalf of Dr. Attallah Hanna

On August 22, 2002, Israeli police arrested Archimandrite Dr. Theodosios Hanna,

Spokesman of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem and the Holy Land. At around

10 o'clock in the morning, he was detained by Israeli Border Police at his home in the old

city of Jerusalem after which he was transferred to the Israeli detention and interrogation

center at the Russian Compound ('Moscowbiya').

 

Early in the morning, Israeli police at Yaffa Gate, one of the entrances of the old city of

Jerusalem, called him and asked him to come to the Israeli police station to testify

concerning an events that happened before a few days. He told them that he would come

after attending a meeting. After he left his home in the old city of Jerusalem, a number of

Israeli policemen were standing outside his home. Also present there were a number of

Israeli journalists, who took pictures of his arrest. Israeli police took Archimandrite Dr.

Theodosios Hanna to the Russian Compound ('Moscowbiya') in an Israeli police car.

 

At the Russian Compound the Israeli police charged him with: (1) 'suspicion of relations

with terrorist organisations'; (2) 'illegally entering an enemy country', which means in Israeli

official lexicon Syria and Lebanon; and (3) 'incitement'. Israeli Attorney General Elyakim

Rubinstein ordered Archimandrite Hanna's arrest and interrogation. Archimandrite Dr.

Theodosios Hanna was interrogated for five hours, in which he was shown interviews he

gave to the media, in which he expressed his support for non-violent resistance against

the foreign military occupation. During his interrogation, some journalists were present

and he was filmed inside the Russian Compound.

 

Archimandrite Hanna said that he always visited Syria and Lebanon to attend religious

and inter-religious conferences and dialogues. He traveled to these countries on his

passport issued by the Vatican. Moreover, it should be emphasized that it is well-known

that churches work across borders. Israeli police confiscated Hanna's two passports, his

Israeli passport and his passport issued by the Vatican. This is the first time, Israeli police

arrested a religious leader or priest. The Israeli police interferes with divisions inside the

Church. It is apparent that Israel wants to impose a different kind of Christian priests, those

who are isolated from the rest of the Arab world, Arab Christians and Muslims.

Archimandrite Hana said: 'We are opposed to harm any human beings, because all

human beings are the creation of God. This is an Israeli campaign to prevent an Arab

priest to obtain a higher position within the Patriarchate', adding 'Israel is using these

punitive measures to put pressure on the Church, violating its independence and that of

other religious institutions'. Hanna also said that the Israeli government wants to pressure

the Church on certain specific issues, including opposition to resistance against

occupation, the lands owned by the Church in the Holy Land, in particular in Jerusalem.

 

Archimandrite Hanna was intimidated and pressured by the Israeli policy to refrain from

any political activitiy. He said: 'Israel claims that the Church should not interfere in politics,

but this is a false claim, because the Palestinian cause has both a moral, political and

religious dimension, and the Christians in the Holy Land are part of the Palestinian people

and are subject to the same oppression as their Muslim brothers and sisters, who both

are prevented from praying in Jerusalem'. Moreover, it is an established fact that Israeli

Rabbi's intervene heavily in politics in all possible forms, which is even encouraged by

Israel's state ideology.

 

We call on all local and international institutions, those religious, political, and human rights

organisations to intervene and to protect and defend Archimandrite Dr. Theodosios

(Atallah) Hanna.

 

The Arab Greek Orthodox Chuch councils, committees and institutions in Jerusalem, the

Holy Land and Jordan

 

Contact:


Archimandrite Theodosios (Atallah) Hanna: 050-668778;

Adi Bajale: 056-379312;

Attorney Ilias Khoury: 02-6283502 (office); Marwan Toubasi: 059-803097
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 06:44:42 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #140 on: December 31, 2009, 06:40:09 AM »

What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I don't have to sweetie:
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/a/R/u/m/
In fact your own Patriarchate of Antioch calls itself "Rum Orthodox"

Which does not mean Rome Italy but Greek Constantinople.

Well duh. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #141 on: December 31, 2009, 06:41:12 AM »

Quote
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I, for one, call myself "român".

Oh no you don't. Second Chance, an American knows better than you. Cheesy
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« Reply #142 on: December 31, 2009, 06:51:40 AM »

And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.

While the first part of this statement might be true, the second is false and slanderous.
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« Reply #143 on: December 31, 2009, 06:53:06 AM »

And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.

While the first part of this statement might be true, the second is false and slanderous.
Its pointless. The man spends his life on the Internet spreading malicious gossip and thinks he's righteously doing God's work.
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« Reply #144 on: December 31, 2009, 07:04:06 AM »

Irish Hermit. Once again you are the voice of the enemies of the Orthodox Church. Here's the truth, and when you read it, why not crawl back into your gossip sewer.

Are you aware that you are quoting from a Palestinian site which supports the Intifada, terrorism, etc.?

While you're digging in the sewer, do you know why Archbishop Theodosios was suspended for 2 months in 2007 by the Patriarch and the Holy Synod?  And why does he travel on a Vatican passport?



Quote
  Crimes against Christianity
http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/crimes_against_christianity/42.htm

      Appeal on behalf of Dr. Attallah Hanna

On August 22, 2002, Israeli police arrested Archimandrite Dr. Theodosios Hanna,

Spokesman of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem and the Holy Land. At around

10 o'clock in the morning, he was detained by Israeli Border Police at his home in the old

city of Jerusalem after which he was transferred to the Israeli detention and interrogation

center at the Russian Compound ('Moscowbiya').

 

Early in the morning, Israeli police at Yaffa Gate, one of the entrances of the old city of

Jerusalem, called him and asked him to come to the Israeli police station to testify

concerning an events that happened before a few days. He told them that he would come

after attending a meeting. After he left his home in the old city of Jerusalem, a number of

Israeli policemen were standing outside his home. Also present there were a number of

Israeli journalists, who took pictures of his arrest. Israeli police took Archimandrite Dr.

Theodosios Hanna to the Russian Compound ('Moscowbiya') in an Israeli police car.

 

At the Russian Compound the Israeli police charged him with: (1) 'suspicion of relations

with terrorist organisations'; (2) 'illegally entering an enemy country', which means in Israeli

official lexicon Syria and Lebanon; and (3) 'incitement'. Israeli Attorney General Elyakim

Rubinstein ordered Archimandrite Hanna's arrest and interrogation. Archimandrite Dr.

Theodosios Hanna was interrogated for five hours, in which he was shown interviews he

gave to the media, in which he expressed his support for non-violent resistance against

the foreign military occupation. During his interrogation, some journalists were present

and he was filmed inside the Russian Compound.

 

Archimandrite Hanna said that he always visited Syria and Lebanon to attend religious

and inter-religious conferences and dialogues. He traveled to these countries on his

passport issued by the Vatican. Moreover, it should be emphasized that it is well-known

that churches work across borders. Israeli police confiscated Hanna's two passports, his

Israeli passport and his passport issued by the Vatican. This is the first time, Israeli police

arrested a religious leader or priest. The Israeli police interferes with divisions inside the

Church. It is apparent that Israel wants to impose a different kind of Christian priests, those

who are isolated from the rest of the Arab world, Arab Christians and Muslims.

Archimandrite Hana said: 'We are opposed to harm any human beings, because all

human beings are the creation of God. This is an Israeli campaign to prevent an Arab

priest to obtain a higher position within the Patriarchate', adding 'Israel is using these

punitive measures to put pressure on the Church, violating its independence and that of

other religious institutions'. Hanna also said that the Israeli government wants to pressure

the Church on certain specific issues, including opposition to resistance against

occupation, the lands owned by the Church in the Holy Land, in particular in Jerusalem.

 

Archimandrite Hanna was intimidated and pressured by the Israeli policy to refrain from

any political activitiy. He said: 'Israel claims that the Church should not interfere in politics,

but this is a false claim, because the Palestinian cause has both a moral, political and

religious dimension, and the Christians in the Holy Land are part of the Palestinian people

and are subject to the same oppression as their Muslim brothers and sisters, who both

are prevented from praying in Jerusalem'. Moreover, it is an established fact that Israeli

Rabbi's intervene heavily in politics in all possible forms, which is even encouraged by

Israel's state ideology.

 

We call on all local and international institutions, those religious, political, and human rights

organisations to intervene and to protect and defend Archimandrite Dr. Theodosios

(Atallah) Hanna.

 

The Arab Greek Orthodox Chuch councils, committees and institutions in Jerusalem, the

Holy Land and Jordan

 

Contact:


Archimandrite Theodosios (Atallah) Hanna: 050-668778;

Adi Bajale: 056-379312;

Attorney Ilias Khoury: 02-6283502 (office); Marwan Toubasi: 059-803097
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« Reply #145 on: December 31, 2009, 07:10:55 AM »

Whatever. Give my regards to the sewer rats.
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« Reply #146 on: December 31, 2009, 07:13:14 AM »

And why does he travel on a Vatican passport?

An Israeli passport is not going to get you into Syria and Lebanon, which were the countries in question.
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« Reply #147 on: December 31, 2009, 07:15:55 AM »

Whatever. Give my regards to the sewer rats.

How come you call Second Chance sweetie (#134) but I dwell with the sewer rats.  Can't I be a sweetie too, like Second Chance?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:17:02 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #148 on: December 31, 2009, 07:17:10 AM »

Whatever. Give my regards to the sewer rats.

How come you call Second Chance sweetie but I dwell with the sewer rats.  Can't I be a sweetie too, like Second Chance?
Second Chance doesn't know any better. You're just malicious.
And a hypocrite. And are committing libel against an Archbishop of the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:21:32 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #149 on: December 31, 2009, 07:24:53 AM »

And why does he travel on a Vatican passport?

An Israeli passport is not going to get you into Syria and Lebanon, which were the countries in question.

Rather unusual for the Vatican to issue a passport to a mere monk (at the time) of the Jerusalem Patriarchate which has officially expressed nothing but dislike and distrust of the Vatican.

The Patriarch:  "Beyond the religious propaganda and the proselytizing of the Roman Catholics, however, our Patriarchate faces also their cunning attempts to outflank the Orthodox presence in the Most Holy Places of Pilgrimage and to increase their influence over the Holy Land, through the political diplomacy of the Vatican and the intervention of Catholic European forces into the international political scene."



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« Reply #150 on: December 31, 2009, 07:39:04 AM »

Rather unusual for the Vatican to issue a passport to a mere monk (at the time) of the Jerusalem Patriarchate which has officially expressed nothing but dislike and distrust of the Vatican.

He was the official spokesperson of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem. He was in Syria and Lebanon attending religious meetings. If these meetings included Catholics, as is usually the case, and they wished the Patriarchate to participate in these discussions, issuing him with a passport so as to enable him to travel makes perfect sense.

If you are suggesting they issued him with a passport because the Vatican too are strongly supportive of the Palestinian cause, so what? No one is denying that H.G. Theodosios is an outspoken critic of the Israeli occupation and oppression of the Arab peoples. But that is quite different from being a "horrible warmonger" as you have called him.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:40:18 AM by Orthodox11 » Logged
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« Reply #151 on: December 31, 2009, 07:39:44 AM »

Whatever. Give my regards to the sewer rats.

How come you call Second Chance sweetie but I dwell with the sewer rats.  Can't I be a sweetie too, like Second Chance?
Second Chance doesn't know any better. You're just malicious.
And a hypocrite. And are committing libel against an Archbishop of the Orthodox Church.

Whatever. Give my regards to the sewer rats.

How come you call Second Chance sweetie but I dwell with the sewer rats.  Can't I be a sweetie too, like Second Chance?
Second Chance doesn't know any better. You're just malicious.
And a hypocrite. And are committing libel against an Archbishop of the Orthodox Church.

You have produced no proof, either from the Courts or from the Patriarchate, that the globally reported statements of the Archimandriite in support of sucide bombers and violent methods were all a lie created by Israeli Intelligence, as you claimed.   Until you do, I am sticking with the evidence we have.   And, btw, look at the way you have conducted your campaign against the Russians in this thread, without offering any evidence at all.  "ThePilgrin" Subdeacon John provided, in message #101, cogent insight into your purpose and intentions in starting this thread.  You commenced it with a malevolent tinge.
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« Reply #152 on: December 31, 2009, 07:44:40 AM »

If you are suggesting they issued him with a passport because the Vatican too are strongly supportive of the Palestinian cause, so what? No one is denying that H.G. Theodosios is an outspoken critic of the Israeli occupation and oppression of the Arab peoples. But that is quite different from being a "horrible warmonger" as you have called him.

When did he make these statements in support of the violent murder of innocent people?  2002?  Read the Orthodox lists for the timeframe and see what the Orthodox have to say about him.

You should also research his removal from his position as spokesman for the Patriarchate -because of these statements.
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« Reply #153 on: December 31, 2009, 07:51:20 AM »

Quote
"I strongly reject terrorist bombings that target innocent people, regardless of their nationality and religion," he [Attallah Hanna] told The Jerusalem Post this week. "The statements attributed to me are fabricated and untrue. The purpose is to hurt the church and its humane and moral stance."
Source

His Grace is a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause. He supports the right of Palestinians to defend themselves against Israeli oppression and tyranny, using force if necessary. However, he has never supported or encouraged violent attacks against innocent civilians.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:56:09 AM by Orthodox11 » Logged
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« Reply #154 on: December 31, 2009, 07:59:44 AM »

Quote
"I strongly reject terrorist bombings that target innocent people, regardless of their nationality and religion," he [Attallah Hanna] told The Jerusalem Post this week. "The statements attributed to me are fabricated and untrue. The purpose is to hurt the church and its humane and moral stance."
Source

His Grace is a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause. He supports the right of Palestinians to defend themselves against Israeli oppression and tyranny, using force if necessary. However, he has never supported or encouraged violent attacks against innocent civilians.

It is the intention of suicide bombers to kill the innocent.
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« Reply #155 on: December 31, 2009, 08:24:52 AM »

Quote
"I strongly reject terrorist bombings that target innocent people, regardless of their nationality and religion," he [Attallah Hanna] told The Jerusalem Post this week. "The statements attributed to me are fabricated and untrue. The purpose is to hurt the church and its humane and moral stance."
Source

His Grace is a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause. He supports the right of Palestinians to defend themselves against Israeli oppression and tyranny, using force if necessary. However, he has never supported or encouraged violent attacks against innocent civilians.

His Eminence made a grave error is supporting the murder of the innocent and he denied making his statements....



Special Dispatch Series - No. 459
January 22, 2003 No.459

Source provided at bottom of post

Palestinian Christian Leader in Praise of Martyrdom Operations and the
Formation of a Muslim and Christian Human Shield to Defend Iraq



In July 2002, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate decided to fire Father
'Atallah Hanna(1) (also known as Archimandrite Theodosios Hanna) from his
post as official spokesman of the Greek Orthodox Church, following
statements he made in praise of suicide attacks.(2) Nevertheless, Father
Hanna continues to present himself as the Church's official spokesman, and
has not stopped issuing statements lauding suicide attacks.

Recently, Father Hanna offered his views on three different occasions:
during a sermon marking the Epiphany at a Greek Orthodox cathedral in
Jerusalem, during a rally at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem,
and during a reception for an official delegation in Haifa. The following
are excerpts of statements made by Hanna during these events:

At A Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Jerusalem

In a January 19, 2003 sermon marking the Epiphany and the baptism of Jesus,
at a Greek Orthodox cathedral in Jerusalem, Hanna said: "Palestine is from
the sea to the river. The Jordan River is a holy river forever and it is the
natural border of Palestine. We emphatically refuse any concession on [even]
a grain of the land of our precious homeland. Just as Ramallah, Gaza,
Nablus, and Jenin are Palestinian cities, so are Haifa, Nazareth, Jaffa,
Ramle, Lod, Beersheba, Safed, and others Palestinian cities. We have not
relinquished and we will not relinquish our historic right, and we will not
agree to any concession on these cities. These are Palestinian cities that
were occupied in 1948."

"The Zionist Jews are foreigners in this land. They have no right to live or
settle in it. They should go somewhere else in the world to establish their
state and their false entity. With regard to Palestine and its beating heart
Jerusalem, it was never in the hands of the Jews. It was and will forever
remain Arab. Jerusalem is an Arab city and the Jews must not settle in it,
be masters over it, or carry out any type of religious ritual or ceremony in
it. They must leave their homes. They have no right to live on land, [or in]
cities or villages that are not theirs..."

"We do not believe in so-called 'peace with Israel' because peace cannot be
made with Satan. Israel is the greatest Satan. No concession and no truce
must be made [with Israel]. Any type of peace with this entity is
concession, submission, and retreat from pan-Arab and national principles...
The negotiations and the other attempts [at an arrangement] will not restore
the Palestinians' rights to them. The Palestinians' rights will be restored
only by resistance. What was taken by force will be restored only by
force..."

"Resistance is the obligation of every Palestinian Christian Arab, as it is
the obligation of every Palestinian Muslim Arab."

"We encourage our youth to participate in the resistance, to carry out
martyrdom attacks,
and to participate in removing the occupation. There is a
need for resistance to the occupation, and for Islamic-Christian
cooperation, so that we will remove the foreign Zionist Jewish intruders and
so that the gates of Palestine will open wide and all those who were
uprooted or emigrated in 1967 and 1948 will return..."

"From this holy Church, and in the presence of all the believing clerics, we
give today a prayer for the sake of the souls of our Shahids and resistors
and for the sake of our heroic Palestinian people, whether living in the
homeland or outside it... We say to the sons of our people: 'Do not retreat,
do not fear, and do not despair.' The Arab Palestinian right to this land is
stronger than any false Zionist military ammunition, which will disappear
sooner or later. This is because the Zionist entity plundering our lands and
our holy places is an entity that cannot maintain stability, and its end
will be to disappear, just like all kinds of colonialism on our land in the
past have disappeared."(3)

At the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem

Hanna delivered similar statements during a rally held on Friday, January
17, 2003 in the square of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem to
protest the "American threats to attack Iraq." Participating in the rally
were Christian clerics, Palestinian Christian personalities, and local
residents. Hanna, who was introduced as the official spokesman of the
Orthodox Church in Jerusalem and Holy Lands, gave a speech on behalf of the
clerics. Condemning the upcoming war on Iraq, he said: "From the Church of
the Holy Sepulcher, the Christians' holiest place, we express our Church's
and our people's solidarity with the heroic Iraqi people which is subject to
daily provocations... From this holy place, the tomb of Jesus, we demand
determined and vigorous Arab and international intervention to prevent the
aggression against Iraq and against its proud people..."

"We stand alongside our Iraqi brothers, in heart and in spirit. The ones who
target them target us as well. We bless Iraq and its people, from Jerusalem,
the capital of the independent Palestinian state... We have assembled a
national Palestinian Islamic-Christian commission, comprising Muslim and
Christian clerics, so that [its members] will go to Iraq, constitute a human
shield, and convey our message."

Hanna spoke out in praise of suicide attacks: "We declare publicly our
blessing, support, and legitimization of the brave Palestinian resistance
[carried out] by any means, including the brave Fidaiyin(4) martyrdom
operations... The names of the Fidaiyi Shahids [the martyrs] will be
inscribed in the history of our Palestinian and Arab people in holy white
letters.
The voices of those who defame these acts of heroism and honor are
nothing more than anomalous voices that do not represent Arab and
Palestinian public opinion..."

"The Fidaiyin martyrdom operations aimed deep inside Israel are unique
pioneer operations that deter the Zionist enemy. They have caused great
damage to this enemy, which understands nothing but the language of force
and thinks that only force will bring peace.
We say to the enemy: 'Leave our
land, our Jerusalem, and our holy places. This is Arab Palestinian land,
that has no connection whatsoever to the Jews and the Zionists'..."

"Martyrdom operations are an excellent and good way to resist the Zionist
invasion of the Palestinian land. In front of the Church of the Holy
Sepulcher, we bless the souls of the heroic Shahids and the families of the
Shahids.
We demand that these families be looked after, helped, and adopted,
because the occupation targets them."(5)

At a Haifa Reception

According to Al-Quds Press Hamas' news agency, during a "reception for an
official delegation in Haifa," Father Hanna called for joint
Islamic-Christian operations to interfere with the imminent U.S. attack on
Iraq and liberate Palestine from "the [Mediterranean] sea to the [Jordan]
river." Hanna said that when he is freed from house arrest and his passports
are returned he will put together a Christian delegation that will go to
Iraq to serve as a human shield against the anticipated war.

Hanna also told the delegation: "The Fidaiyin are the heroes of this nation.
We are proud of them and resolutely refuse any attempt to defame their
deeds... They are not committing suicide, as some claim, and they are not
terrorists, as others claim – they are resisting the occupation. We
unreservedly support the martyrdom operations."
Hanna also called on
"Palestinian Arab Christians to participate in resisting the occupation in
all forms, since they are part of the Palestinian people and of this
nation." He said, "True reform is reform that must provide an answer to the
question of how it is possible to escalate the resistance in all ways, so as
to actualize our national goals."(6)

Two days after these statements were published, Hanna strongly denied having
made them.(7)

Endnotes:
(1) Born in Haifa and holds both Israeli citizenship and a PA passport
granted by Arafat.
(2) See MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 405, July 30, 2002,
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP40502 .
(3) Al-Hayat (London), January 20, 2002.
(4) Similar to "martyr," in common use.
(5) Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), January 18, 2003.
(6)http://www.palestine-info.info/arabic/palestoday/dailynews/2003/jan03/11_1/de\
tails.htm#4,
January 11, 2003; www.arabs48.com/display.x?cid=91&sid=212&id=7875, January
11, 2003, and Al-Sabil (Jordan), January 15, 2003.
(7) Al-Ahali (Israel), January 13, 2003

Source :: Scholars for Peace in the Middle East (SPME)
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:UC6FZ0qp3CgJ:spme.net/cgi-bin/facultyforum.cgi%3FID%3D1545+%22In+July+2002,+the+Greek+Orthodox+Patriarchate+decided+to+fire+Father%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

SPME Daily Digest
Early Edition
1.24.2003




« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 08:33:29 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #156 on: December 31, 2009, 08:30:35 AM »

Who recorded this sermon? Was there an official transcript (i.e. one written by H.G. Theodosios himself)? Audio or video recording?

If not, it's his word against theirs (whoever "they" are). I still don't see your point about the Vatican. Why does a Vatican passport prove that he is a warmonger?
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« Reply #157 on: December 31, 2009, 08:34:48 AM »

Who recorded this sermon? Was there an official transcript (i.e. one written by H.G. Theodosios himself)? Audio or video recording?

If not, it's his word against theirs (whoever "they" are).


Source :: Scholars for Peace in the Middle East (SPME)
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:UC6FZ0qp3CgJ:spme.net/cgi-bin/facultyforum.cgi%3FID%3D1545+%22In+July+2002,+the+Greek+Orthodox+Patriarchate+decided+to+fire+Father%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

SPME Daily Digest
Early Edition
1.24.2003

(2) See MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 405, July 30, 2002,
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP40502 .
(3) Al-Hayat (London), January 20, 2002.
(4) Similar to "martyr," in common use.
(5) Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), January 18, 2003.
(6)http://www.palestine-info.info/arabic/palestoday/dailynews/2003/jan03/11_1/de\
tails.htm#4,
January 11, 2003; www.arabs48.com/display.x?cid=91&sid=212&id=7875, January
11, 2003, and Al-Sabil (Jordan), January 15, 2003.
(7) Al-Ahali (Israel), January 13, 2003


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« Reply #158 on: December 31, 2009, 09:31:26 AM »

What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I don't have to sweetie:
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/a/R/u/m/
In fact your own Patriarchate of Antioch calls itself "Rum Orthodox"
Apology accepted for your inane comment.

Your ignorance is breathtaking, as is the sophomoric level of your argumentation. Now, once again what in the world is bugging you? You are acting out like a petulant child. Pull yourself together for heaven's sake!
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« Reply #159 on: December 31, 2009, 09:37:47 AM »

Who recorded this sermon? Was there an official transcript (i.e. one written by H.G. Theodosios himself)? Audio or video recording?

If not, it's his word against theirs (whoever "they" are).


Source :: Scholars for Peace in the Middle East (SPME)
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:UC6FZ0qp3CgJ:spme.net/cgi-bin/facultyforum.cgi%3FID%3D1545+%22In+July+2002,+the+Greek+Orthodox+Patriarchate+decided+to+fire+Father%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

SPME Daily Digest
Early Edition
1.24.2003

(2) See MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 405, July 30, 2002,
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP40502 .
(3) Al-Hayat (London), January 20, 2002.
(4) Similar to "martyr," in common use.
(5) Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), January 18, 2003.
(6)http://www.palestine-info.info/arabic/palestoday/dailynews/2003/jan03/11_1/de\
tails.htm#4,
January 11, 2003; www.arabs48.com/display.x?cid=91&sid=212&id=7875, January
11, 2003, and Al-Sabil (Jordan), January 15, 2003.
(7) Al-Ahali (Israel), January 13, 2003




Dear Father Ambrose--Your comments on the Palestinian "warmonger" Archbishop are spot on. You have proven your point and owe no further explanations to those who will not see the truth even if it hit them between their eyes. I continue to marvel at your patience and forbearance. Please take care of yourself.
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« Reply #160 on: December 31, 2009, 09:52:42 AM »


Dear Father Ambrose--Your comments on the Palestinian "warmonger" Archbishop are spot on. You have proven your point and owe no further explanations to those who will not see the truth even if it hit them between their eyes. I continue to marvel at your patience and forbearance. Please take care of yourself.

You're definitely invited to New Year's dinner.  laugh
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« Reply #161 on: December 31, 2009, 09:59:47 AM »

What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I don't have to sweetie:
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/a/R/u/m/
Ruma: origin obscure, assumed to be Turkish.
Rumenka: comes from Serbian Румен, "Red," supposed for the red flowers there.  Called Piros in Hungarian for the same reason.
Rumska:(<Rupska, etymologically meaning [in Serbian] "Mining Village").
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24405585/Roman-mining-in-Illyricum-historical-aspects-S-Dusanic

Do check these.

You leave out the largest-Rumelia<Turkish "Rum eli" "Land of the Roman."  The people on this map seem to insist on calling themselves, for the most part, "Greeks."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Rumelia_map.jpg
(Btw, interesting name for the Greek Islands "Djezair" Turkish Cezair (< Arabic "Islands," the same name for Algiers/Algeria).

Quote
In fact your own Patriarchate of Antioch calls itself "Rum Orthodox"
Not a wish: a hold over from the Ottoman period. Unlike the Bulgarians, we didn't get a seperate millet.  I myself am not crazy about being called Ruumii, for a variety of reasons.

Btw, Happy New Year!
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« Reply #162 on: December 31, 2009, 10:04:04 AM »

Quote
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I, for one, call myself "român".
Yeah, but that's because the newcomers call you "Vlach" "foreigner."  And for reasons which predate the founding of Constantinople by that Latin Constantine (a proto-Romanian, as was Justinian, facts the Romanians oddly don't make much of).
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« Reply #163 on: December 31, 2009, 10:41:28 AM »

And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
I think you need to back up your defamatory claims about a Bishop of the Orthodox Church.

Pshaw!  It was all over the Internet when Archimandrite Hanna expressed his approval of Palestinian suicide bombers killing Israelis.  Don't tell me the horrifed reaction from the Orthodox world was not heard in Australia.
I think you are spending too much time on the internet. That's the problem.
He was arrested and interrogated by the Israelis and no charges were laid because the claims were false. It was plain and simple persecution of a Palestinian by the Israelis to try and prevent him being consecrated Bishop. Now if you have evidence to the contrary, kindly present it or post a public apology to Archbishop Theodosios for your libelous claim.

Many lectures and publications at the Zayed Centre praise suicide bombings. For example, on June 19, 2002, Father Atallah Hanna, the spokesman of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, spoke at the Zayed Centre, ( http://www.zccf.org.ae/e_TitleDescription.asp?Tid=43 ). According to the Zayed Centre's summary of the lecture, Father Hanna stated that "the conduct of the Zionist movement is characterized by its racist nature, and that it is completely in contradiction with the Muslim and Christian values… He also denounced the Judaization process carried out by the Israeli government for the city of Jerusalem. In this regard, he mentioned the measures taken by Israel to empty the city of Muslims and Christian and replace them [with] Jewish settlers. As an eye witness of [the] Jenin massacre, he said that it had been the most horrible tragedy ever perpetrated against humanity… Answering a question on the Orthodox Church’s stance as regards suicide bombings, he said that Palestinian martyrdom is part [of] the Intifada which has to remain kindled until a resolution is achieved for the Palestinian cause… Introducing the speaker, prior to the lecture, Mr. Mohammed Khalifa Al-Murar, Executive Director of ZCCF, said that Father Atallah has an honorable record in his struggle against the Israeli occupation." A report about Father Atallah Hanna's speech appeared in the Gulf News the following day. The report quotes Father Hanna as saying that "political parties in Palestine agree to the continuation of the Intifada, which includes different approaches of struggle. Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued Intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes… We are part of the Intifada, so you don't expect us to keep distance and watch. We are in the struggle, whether it's martyrdom or any other means, we are part of it."

Shortly after his appearance at the Zayed Centre, Father Hanna was dismissed from his position as spokesman for the Church. In response, Father Hanna said "The decision to fire [me] is illegal, illegitimate, and baseless… I will not comply with the decision and I will carry out my daily duties as spokesman for the community without considering [this] decision." In fact, Father Hanna has continued to present himself as spokesman of the Church, and continued to publicly support suicide bombings.

http://www.memritv.org/report/en/906.htm

Memri is an organization founded and run by Zionists, and for their own purposes (e.g. fighting the existence of Middle East Studies Departments in the US).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memri_tv

Quote

Police Question Greek Orthodox Priest on Ties to Terror
Archimandrite Hana Atalla of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate was questioned by police on Thursday on suspicion of supporting terror and traveling illegally to Syria and Lebanon, THE JERUSALEM POST reported. Police spokesman Gil Kleiman said Atalla is suspected of having met with Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah during a recent visit to Syria and Lebanon, where he allegedly expressed support for terrorist organizations. He is also suspected of calling on Christians to participate in the Palestinian uprising.

"Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes," Atalla said in a speech in Dubai on June 20. A report in Itim said he also appeared recently on Hizbullah's television station.

The Patriarchate, in an official statement, denied that Atalla is a spokesperson for the church. Bishop Aristorchus, a spokesperson for the Patriarchate, said Atalla is a clerk in the Arabic department of the Patriarchate's secretariat. He added that the Patriarch does not agree Attla's statements. The Patriarch also said that Atalla was not given permission to travel to Syria and Lebanon.

http://www.nyjtimes.com/Heritage/News/August1902.htm



-oOo-

Arab Christian Suicide Bombers?

Jan. 15….(Islamic News) Orthodox Church spokesman Father Attallah Hanna caused great controversy last year with his comments in support of Palestinian suicide bombers, saying, "Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes." The sentiment that brought these extreme comments from one leader appears to have spread to other Christian religious leaders. Now, however, Father Hanna is going beyond verbal support for Palestinian suicide bombers and is even suggesting that Christians take an active role. Father Hanna met with a Palestinian delegation this week in which he praised the "martyrdom operations", calling on Palestinian Christians and Arabs to do everything in their power to resist the Israeli occupation. Hanna said the men who carry out acts of martyrdom were not "suicide bombers" or "terrorists" but heroes and encouraged Christians and Muslims to work together to liberate Palestine. Catholic Father Johanna Qaltah echoed Father Hanna's comments adding that martyrdom is a duty and an obligation for all Arab citizens, Muslims or Christians, in defense of their land and honor. Also adding his support to suicide bombers is Ikram Lamaei, Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Anglican Church in Egypt and professor of comparative religion. Lamaei would like to see Yasser Arafat's Fatah group train Christians to become martyrs in joint Islamic-Christian operations. Lamei believes this would send a message to the world that Palestinians and Arabs are united, regardless of religious differences. According to some reports, leaders of Christian sects in Egypt as well as leading Coptic political activists have endorsed the idea of joint Christian-Islamic martyr brigades and praised these leaders for their recent statements. Those Christian leaders calling for such action believe it is important to distinguish between Western and Eastern Christians. According to one leader, unless Eastern Christians embrace the Arab Islamic civilization, it will not have a future. Israel, however, has formally protested the remarks of Father Hanna to the Jerusalem Orthodox Church, accusing him of supporting terrorist operations and posing a threat to national security.

Just to briefly give some context, the Chrisitans live in a situation where their loyalty is suspect.  I just to joke that if Yasser Arafat killed one Zionist, George Habash (a baptized Arab Orthodox from St. George's hometown and a choir boy, until the Zionists expelled all gentiles, Muslim and Christian, and leveled the town for Tel Aviv's airport; and a leader of the PLO before Arafat sidelined him) had to kill 100.  The issue of distinction from Western Christians is also because they often end up scapgoats of what the new Crusaders are up to.  And before some get on their high horse, I'll remind you that "dissident" Jews were/are similarly vilified when not towing the Zionist line, and the treatment of the American Loyalists ended up in the foundation of Canada.  As to the assoication with Hamas (something Habash, for instance, reversed himself), the same ilk who founded Memri also help found Hamas: the original idea was to divide the Palestinians by creating a religious based movement to weaken the aggressively secular PLO.  Be careful what you wish for.....

As to "innocent civilians," at the time of the invasion of Lebanon, someone pointed out that just the dead from the massacre of Deir Yassin outnumbered all those killed by "terrorists" (btw, that term entered common parlance when the British applied it to the American minutemen, a name they more than earned decades later by their government burning down the civilian infrastructure in Canada) from the Zionist states founding to the invasion (those who did it later ran the Zionist government, a fact later brought up by the Syrian delegate holding up the WANTED poster for Shamir issued by the British. Nobel Peace laureate Menahem Begin was another).  The dead from the death march out of Lydda in 1948 has also been estimated to outnumber the "victims" of Palestinian "terrorism."

What is going on in Palestine is what was going on in the Balkans in the waning days of the Ottomans (and the breakup of Yugoslavia), and should be seen in the same light.

Irish Hermit. Once again you are the voice of the enemies of the Orthodox Church. Here's the truth, and when you read it, why not crawl back into your gossip sewer.

A difference of opinion, but not gossip.
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« Reply #164 on: December 31, 2009, 11:06:23 AM »

Irish Hermit. Once again you are the voice of the enemies of the Orthodox Church. Here's the truth, and when you read it, why not crawl back into your gossip sewer.

Are you aware that you are quoting from a Palestinian site which supports the Intifada,

The Intifada should be supported.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/24/AlDurrah1.jpg


Quote
terrorism, etc.?

Colonial America, Canada, the Balkans, the Caucasus, Ireland-it often depends who is asked.





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« Reply #165 on: December 31, 2009, 11:10:01 AM »

And why does he travel on a Vatican passport?

An Israeli passport is not going to get you into Syria and Lebanon, which were the countries in question.

The Vatican one is also handy, given the restrictions on the Arab (actually all non-Jews) on the former (e.g. no right of return after a year outside).

And why does he travel on a Vatican passport?

An Israeli passport is not going to get you into Syria and Lebanon, which were the countries in question.

Rather unusual for the Vatican to issue a passport to a mere monk (at the time) of the Jerusalem Patriarchate which has officially expressed nothing but dislike and distrust of the Vatican.

The Patriarch:  "Beyond the religious propaganda and the proselytizing of the Roman Catholics, however, our Patriarchate faces also their cunning attempts to outflank the Orthodox presence in the Most Holy Places of Pilgrimage and to increase their influence over the Holy Land, through the political diplomacy of the Vatican and the intervention of Catholic European forces into the international political scene."

The Greek Pot is entitled to calling the Vatican kettle black, but for the Palestian Arabs, the "Latin" (now, post Vatican II, the Arab) presence is a blessing.  He and the other Tomb worshippers would do better to change that, rather than complain.

A lot of Palestinians had to depend on stateless UN passports, I wouldn't be suprised if the Vatican was doing similar service for Christians.
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« Reply #166 on: December 31, 2009, 11:18:32 AM »


Colonial America, Canada, the Balkans, the Caucasus, Ireland-it often depends who is asked.



I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.
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« Reply #167 on: December 31, 2009, 11:20:26 AM »

I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.
How holy you are. Except when His Grace the Archbishop of Sebastia says the same, you claim he is lying.
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« Reply #168 on: December 31, 2009, 11:25:57 AM »

I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.

How holy you are. Except when His Grace the Archbishop of Sebastia says the same, you claim he is lying.

Well, unlike His Eminence I am not on record as having advocated the bombing of the innocent and praising those who do it as heroes and martyrs.  I am no sugarplum fairy about Irish politics but violence against the innocent turns my stomach.
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« Reply #169 on: December 31, 2009, 11:30:45 AM »

I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.

How holy you are. Except when His Grace the Archbishop of Sebastia says the same, you claim he is lying.

Well, unlike His Eminence I am not on record as having advocated the bombing of the innocent and praising those who do it as heroes and martyrs.  I am no sugarplum fairy about Irish politics but violence against the innocent turns my stomach.
You are lying and you know it. And all the Churches of the Holy Land know you are lying:
http://www.hcsn.org/HCEF/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=931&Itemid=45
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« Reply #170 on: December 31, 2009, 11:36:34 AM »


Colonial America, Canada, the Balkans, the Caucasus, Ireland-it often depends who is asked.



I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.

Just to be clear, I wasn't claiming you had, Father.  But many do, whether by adovating present armed struggle, or sanctified past armed struggle.  On that, one need only compare notes with the Americans and Canadians on the American War of Independence.  And the Memri crowd are the worst offenders.

I'd like to see the speech in the Arabic, but one thing I'd like to know is what sucide (they are called "self sacrifice" in Arabic, not suicide) bombers his grace was referring to.  They are not all the same.

Happy New Year.
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« Reply #171 on: December 31, 2009, 11:40:33 AM »

An observation: Although they come from all across the globe, the passions on display in this thread highlight the difficulties that unity of the Church in America faces; I am not weighing in, or commenting upon, the merits,or lack of merits (as the case may be) of any poster or the sincerity of his or her point of view.  I am simply observing that the heartfelt passion that is being voiced here on this issue, can be heard among the Faithful in the US on issues that are particular to us, vis-a-vis our relationships with the 'Old World" churches and the cultural heritage that we all bring to the Church, be we cradle Orthodox or converts. Let us agree that during this season of the Nativity, as we celebrate the Birth of the Prince of Peace for all of us (regardless of calendar) that we join in a prayer for peace and unity for surely, God is with us! -S'nami Boh!
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« Reply #172 on: December 31, 2009, 11:44:25 AM »

You are lying and you know it. And all the Churches of the Holy Land know you are lying:
http://www.hcsn.org/HCEF/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=931&Itemid=45


The Patriarchate removed Archimandrite Hanna from his position as one of the spokemen for the Patriarchate - because of those remarks.  So the Patriarchate accepted that Fr Hanna had been accurately reported, or did they just seize the opportunity to get rid of him and did not care if the remarks were accurately reported or not?

The good Father did not remain idle in Church affairs and he had his revenge by being one of the chief movers in having the Patriarch overthrown.  Then Patriatch Theophilos was elected and the Archimandrite was raised to a bishop.   A year after bering made a bishop he offended the new Patriarch Theophilos and he was suspended (May 2007) from episcopal sevrices and functions for 2 months.  It's hard to know what to make of all those events in rapid sequence. 

I give you the facts.  You interpret them.
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« Reply #173 on: December 31, 2009, 11:45:04 AM »

All the Greeks in Palestine are from Greece or Cyprus.  The schools that the Patriarchate runs are run for Greeks from Greece: the local Arabs only gained access when, during the Intifadah, the Greeks stopped coming (they teach the Arabs Greek from textbooks from the Greek Ministry of Education, so they "can go to school.").  It is the Phanariots-all 500 or so of them in Palestine (there being no local Greek population)-who identify the Church with ethnicity.  And that's the Greek flag they are waving.

Yes, they're nearly all from Greece or Cyprus, they often exclude non-Greeks from their ranks, and the way they adorn Orthodox churches in the Holy Land with the flag of the republic of Greece is absolutely disgusting. However, the Church of Jerusalem is the Church of Jerusalem. The "Greek Church" has not come to the Holy Land and replaced the "Palestinian Church." The problem are the ethnic Greeks who think it is acceptable to exclude non-Greeks from the leadership of the Church, but the Church of Jerusalem will remain Church of Jerusalem whether its leaders are Greek, Arab or Kenyan.

By speaking of "Greek Church" taking over the Holy Land, you're making the exact same mistake as these so-called 'Phanariots.'

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The Pan-Orthodox Synod voted to support the decision in May 2005, and in August Theophilos III was unanimously elected as the replacement. He was confirmed by the governments of Greece, Israel the Palestinian Authority and Jordan.
source

You were saying?
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« Reply #174 on: December 31, 2009, 11:51:19 AM »

You are lying and you know it. And all the Churches of the Holy Land know you are lying:
http://www.hcsn.org/HCEF/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=931&Itemid=45


The Patriarchate removed Archimandrite Hanna from his position as one of the spokemen for the Patriarchate - because of those remarks.  So the Patriarchate accepted that Fr Hanna had been accurately reported, or did they just seize the opportunity to get rid of him and did not care if the remarks were accurately reported or not?

Given the antics of the Patriarchate (like selling Palestianian trust land to the Zionists), it can't be ruled out.


Quote
The good Father did not remain idle in Church affairs and he had his revenge by being one of the chief movers in having the Patriarch overthrown.  Then Patriatch Theophilos was elected and the Archimandrite was raised to a bishop.   A year after bering made a bishop he offended the new Patriarch Theophilos and he was suspended (May 2007) from episcopal sevrices and functions for 2 months.  It's hard to know what to make of all those events in rapid sequence.
 

Quote
Bethlehem - Ma'an - Thirteen Greek Orthodox Christian leaders met in Bethlehem Sunday and voted unanimously to Boycott the reception of the denomination's Patriarch Theophilos III for the 6 January Christmas celebrations.

Officials and scouts affiliated with the groups under the 13 and those they Represent will not receive the Patriarch at the March Elias Monastery or meet him at the entrance to Bethlehem at Israel's Checkpoint 300 for his Procession to the Nativity Church.

The decision came as a result of the meeting in the Orthodox society headquarters in Bethlehem, following the local leaders' dissatisfaction with the Patriarch's unrealized promises to rectify issues of land sales to Israel that saw the previous Patriarch sacked.

The former Patriarch Irenaios I was voted out of the position in 2005 by the Brotherhood of the Holy Sephruchle, of which he had been the head. The Congregation in Jerusalem had been increasingly angered by the sale of church land to the state of Israel, much of which was private Palestinian land in the trust given to the church before the 1967 war which saw Israel occupy the West Bank and annex East Jerusalem.

The Church owned land on which the Knesset and Israeli Prime Minister's residence is built. And under Irenaios, land from the Christian Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem as well as land next to March Elias were hip to the State of Israel. In October 1999 the church signed an agreement with a British company developing allowing construction of neighborhoods linking the Israeli settlements of Har Homa and Gilo....

Head of the Orthodox Institutions Council At-Toubasy Marwan told Ma'an the decision to Boycott came in response to the refusal of Theophilos III to abid by the promises he made to the Palestinian National Authority when they agreed to confirm their support for him as head of the Jerusalem Church.

According to At-Toubasy, the incoming Patriarch had promised to work on nullifying the land deals his predecessor had made. He was also accused of failing to comply with the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate Law No. 24 of 1958, which stipulates that in order to be approved by the Jordanian Crown, Church officials must be Jordanian Citizens....

At the time Theophilos was confirmed by the government of Jordan, and issued a statement promising to serve the church and support the Palestinian people...

The Congregation only found out about the lease, according to an interview from the Jordan Times in Amman with Farraj Basse-Orthodox Society, when the lawsuit was filed between two Israeli investors, one who had been Leased more than 700 dunums of land belonging to the church under Irenaios I, and the second developing the Land Leased by Theophilos III...

Theophilos said at-Toubassy also refused to respond to attempts by the Palestinian Authority to cancel deals made under his predecessor.
In June, the office of the Patriarch announced that it was able to stop an Israeli move to confiscated church property for road construction around March Elias

The group of 13 Bethlehem leaders said they would inform President Mahmud Abbas, Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, Bethlehem governor Abdel Fattah Hamaiel, and the mayors of Bethlehem, Beit Jala and Beit Sahour about their decision... [/ quote]

[url = http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=250666] source [/ url]

Quote
I give you the facts.  You interpret them.
Definitely not gossip, but difference of opinion/interpretation.
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« Reply #175 on: December 31, 2009, 11:59:56 AM »

You were saying?

I was saying that there is an unfortunate situation in the Church of Jerusalem, where ethnic Greeks (with notable exceptions) seem insistent on excluding non-Greeks from positions of leadership. The government of Greece also plays a part in maintaining this chauvinistic attitude. However, our Patriarchates are geographical, not ethnic. The Church of Jerusalem is the Church of Jerusalem whether it is presided over by local Palestinian clergy or held captive by foreigners. There is not a "Greek Church" which took control over the "Palestinian Church", although Greeks have certainly taken control of the Church of Jerusalem.
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« Reply #176 on: December 31, 2009, 01:07:42 PM »

I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.

How holy you are. Except when His Grace the Archbishop of Sebastia says the same, you claim he is lying.

Well, unlike His Eminence I am not on record as having advocated the bombing of the innocent and praising those who do it as heroes and martyrs.  I am no sugarplum fairy about Irish politics but violence against the innocent turns my stomach.
You are lying and you know it. And all the Churches of the Holy Land know you are lying:
http://www.hcsn.org/HCEF/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=931&Itemid=45


1. Is there really large substantive differences between slandering a priest and a bishop? I believe that you just slandered Father Ambrose, a priest.

2. Your reply seems to indicate that Father Ambrose is lying about not advocating violence. Having read your link, it appears that you may be saying that Father Ambrose is lying about the Palestinian warmongering Archbishop.

3. You linked to the HCEF site to support you claim that "all the churches of the Holy Land know (Father Ambrose is) lying."

HCEF cannot be said to represent all of the churches in the Holy Land. Thus your claim is groundless (not surprising in this thread) and slanderous. Please do apologize.
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« Reply #177 on: December 31, 2009, 01:56:54 PM »

Quote
I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.
Of all things, speaking Greek hasn't hurt anybody.
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« Reply #178 on: December 31, 2009, 02:18:31 PM »

Quote
I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.
Of all things, speaking Greek hasn't hurt anybody.
Its the reason why the Aromanians have nearly disappeared.

Refusing to speak it has often gotten you killed.
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« Reply #179 on: December 31, 2009, 03:23:48 PM »

Quote
I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.
Of all things, speaking Greek hasn't hurt anybody.

I do have relatives who became Greek in order to (a) make a better life for themselves and (b) to be left alone from persecution, and they say the same thing to justify their actions. That is OK with me because I was not in their shoes. Now, I am sure that if I have a chance to visit Greece, I will bone up on the Greek language so that I can make an effort to please my hosts. To me this is a matter of courtesy. One thing that I will not do is to dishonor my ancestors who strove so hard to earn the right to use their own language (and not Greek) in their own churches. In my people's history, Greeks did not ask us politely to speak Greek; instead they persecuted us when we did not and they tried to make us become Greek--in other words, cultural genocide. This is tragic not only because of what happened to my people but also because it came from the founders of modern Western Civilization and fellow Orthodox Christians.
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