Author Topic: Oh Those Russians  (Read 19964 times)

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Offline ozgeorge

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Oh Those Russians
« on: December 29, 2009, 07:16:23 AM »
Prompted by a post in another thread, I was reading the news item: "Russian cathedral in Jerusalem vandalized" ( http://www.rusdm.ru/en/index.php?item=30 )
Interesting. Why is there a "Russian Cathedral" in Jerusalem in the first place? It turns out that this is the Cathedral Church of the "Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem" which is under the Moscow Patriarchate.
But wait! There's more!
It seems that ROCOR also has and Ecclessiatical Mission in Jerusalem: http://www.jerusalem-mission.org/history.html and on its history page, we read: "In 1920, when contact with Moscow was lost and Metropolitan Anthony organized the Highest Church Authority abroad (predecessor of the Synod of Bishops), the Mission immediately submitted itself under its jurisdiction."
Is this common for Russians to enter another Bishop's territory (In this case, the Patriarch of Jerusalem's territory) and just set up missions under their own Bishops?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 07:21:55 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2009, 07:48:39 AM »
Prompted by a post in another thread, I was reading the news item: "Russian cathedral in Jerusalem vandalized" ( http://www.rusdm.ru/en/index.php?item=30 )
Interesting. Why is there a "Russian Cathedral" in Jerusalem in the first place? It turns out that this is the Cathedral Church of the "Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem" which is under the Moscow Patriarchate.
But wait! There's more!
It seems that ROCOR also has and Ecclessiatical Mission in Jerusalem: http://www.jerusalem-mission.org/history.html and on its history page, we read: "In 1920, when contact with Moscow was lost and Metropolitan Anthony organized the Highest Church Authority abroad (predecessor of the Synod of Bishops), the Mission immediately submitted itself under its jurisdiction."
Is this common for Russians to enter another Bishop's territory (In this case, the Patriarch of Jerusalem's territory) and just set up missions under their own Bishops?

No, dear man.

1.  The Russian Church Abroad in Jerusalem exists at the pleasure of the Patriarch of Jerusalem

2.  No Russian Church Abroad bishop has ever been appointed for Jerusalem.   That would be a
     a canonical violation of the Patriarchate's territory. There is simply an Archimandrite
     in charge of the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission (a pre-Revolutionary body)

3.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem entrusted the Russian Church Abroad with the care of the Russian churches and
     monasteries in the Holy Land after the Bolshevik Revolution

4.  The clergy of the Russian Church Abroad in Jerusalem serve Liturgy on Antimensia supplied and signed by
     the Patriarch of Jerusalem

5.  The clergy of the Russian Church Abroad in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem at Liturgy
     and all other Services

6.  The abbesses of the monasteries of the Russian Church Abroad are installed only with the approval of the
     Patriarch of Jerusalem who sometimes conducts the installation himself.




Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2009, 08:06:30 AM »

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate -- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."

-oOo-

These Russian Jewish believers naturally come under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and they will eventually have some impact on the future of the Patriarchate.  Churches are being built for them in Israel, including two already built at Beer Sheba.  Probably for the first time since the Apostles, Orthodox Christians are worshipping in the Holy City, using Hebrew in the Liturgy!! (Church Slavonic is also used of course.)   While other Churches in Israel are experiencing falling numbers and an uncertain future, God has so arranged it that the influx of Russian Orthodox has brought fresh promise to the ancient Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2009, 10:02:28 AM »
Prompted by a post in another thread, I was reading the news item: "Russian cathedral in Jerusalem vandalized" ( http://www.rusdm.ru/en/index.php?item=30 )
Interesting. Why is there a "Russian Cathedral" in Jerusalem in the first place? It turns out that this is the Cathedral Church of the "Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem" which is under the Moscow Patriarchate.
But wait! There's more!
It seems that ROCOR also has and Ecclessiatical Mission in Jerusalem: http://www.jerusalem-mission.org/history.html and on its history page, we read: "In 1920, when contact with Moscow was lost and Metropolitan Anthony organized the Highest Church Authority abroad (predecessor of the Synod of Bishops), the Mission immediately submitted itself under its jurisdiction."
Is this common for Russians to enter another Bishop's territory (In this case, the Patriarch of Jerusalem's territory) and just set up missions under their own Bishops?

No, that would be the Greeks.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22981.0.html

And in the case of Jerusalem, I fail to see why Phanariots should bemoan the presence of Russians, except the Russians aid the local, Arab Faithful, thereby endangering the tomb worshippers' colony.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 10:07:48 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2009, 02:04:47 PM »
1.  The Russian Church Abroad in Jerusalem exists at the pleasure of the Patriarch of Jerusalem
Then why, in their own words was the ROCOR Mission to the Holy Land "placed under the the Highest Church Authority abroad (predecessor of the Synod of Bishops)"

2.  No Russian Church Abroad bishop has ever been appointed for Jerusalem. 
It doesn't have to appoint a Bishop to the Mission, the Mission is under the authority of the Synod of the Russian Church Abroard- well one of them is. The other one is under the Moscow Patriarchate.

3.  The Patriarch of Jerusalem entrusted the Russian Church Abroad with the care of the Russian churches and monasteries in the Holy Land after the Bolshevik Revolution
Documentation?

4.  The clergy of the Russian Church Abroad in Jerusalem serve Liturgy on Antimensia supplied and signed by the Patriarch of Jerusalem
And who signs the antimension in the "Russian Cathedral"?


5.  The clergy of the Russian Church Abroad in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem at Liturgy and all other Services
So then why, when "Moscow was lost and Metropolitan Anthony organized the Highest Church Authority abroad (predecessor of the Synod of Bishops), the Mission immediately submitted itself under its jurisdiction." If the Mission was under the Jurisdiction of the Synod of the Church Abroad, commemorating the Patriarchate is mere lip service.

6.  The abbesses of the monasteries of the Russian Church Abroad are installed only with the approval of the Patriarch of Jerusalem who sometimes conducts the installation himself.
Sometimes eh?




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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2009, 02:07:56 PM »
And in the case of Jerusalem, I fail to see why Phanariots should bemoan the presence of Russians, except the Russians aid the local, Arab Faithful, thereby endangering the tomb worshippers' colony.
Because the Orthodox Church has condemned Phyletism. But I suppose that's meaningless to someone who calls people "Phanariots".
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2009, 02:15:26 PM »
And in the case of Jerusalem, I fail to see why Phanariots should bemoan the presence of Russians, except the Russians aid the local, Arab Faithful, thereby endangering the tomb worshippers' colony.
Because the Orthodox Church has condemned Phyletism. But I suppose that's meaningless to someone who calls people "Phanariots".

And your point is what: that the Greek Patriarchate of Constantinople of Phanar, Istanbul, Turkey is also condemned of phyletism?

Offline augustin717

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2009, 02:21:29 PM »
I really do not understand this willingness (and glee) to insult the first See  of our Church, like in the post and thread above.

Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2009, 02:22:20 PM »
I'm not exactly sure what the issue that you have is, ozgeorge.  The Russian ecclesial mission is under the omophorion of the Patriarch of Jerusalem and exists with his blessing, and is administered, with his knowledge and blessing, by the Russian Church, to help serve the extremely large number of Russian faithful living in the Holy Land.

Also, are you familiar with the concept of a metochion?

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2009, 02:30:30 PM »
Only Greek bishops. One arab who has no vote at the Synod.  Greek flags flying everywhere.  Why not flag of JP?  Greek govt controls JP.  Russians look after the people, Greeks don't.  Simple case of phyletism by Phanariotes.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2009, 02:42:55 PM »
The Russian ecclesial mission is under the omophorion of the Patriarch of Jerusalem and exists with his blessing, and is administered, with his knowledge and blessing, by the Russian Church, to help serve the extremely large number of Russian faithful living in the Holy Land.
You mean both Russian Ecclesiastical Missions do you? Because there are two- the ROCOR Mission and the Moscow Patriarchate Mission. If its all so above board and just about accomodating Russian Pilgrims- why the need for two Russian Missions under two different jurisdictions?

Also, are you familiar with the concept of a metochion?
Um yes. I'm Greek. So you are saying that these missions are monastic dependencies are you? So why does the MP have a Cathedral in Jerusalem?
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Offline witega

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2009, 02:50:08 PM »
1.  The Russian Church Abroad in Jerusalem exists at the pleasure of the Patriarch of Jerusalem
Then why, in their own words was the ROCOR Mission to the Holy Land "placed under the the Highest Church Authority abroad (predecessor of the Synod of Bishops)"

Because if you weren't busy trying to make cheap points, you would recall that in the early part of last century, the Russian Church went through a very painful time of trial and division. More painful for those who remained in Russia and became martyrs and confessors, but painful and confusing for those parishes and missions outside of Russia that found their traditional lines of authority cut or hopelessly confused. The sentence above clearly refers to how that was resolved for the *existing* metochion. The same page you are referencing says:

Quote
In 1857 the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem was officially inaugurated, this time with recognition from the Sultan of Turkey. Its purpose was to offer Russian pilgrims spiritual supervision, provide assistance, and sponsor charitable and educational work among the Orthodox Arab population of Palestine and Syria.

The Mission also served as the representative of the Russian Church to the Mother of all Churches - the Church of Jerusalem


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Offline witega

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2009, 02:53:37 PM »
The Russian ecclesial mission is under the omophorion of the Patriarch of Jerusalem and exists with his blessing, and is administered, with his knowledge and blessing, by the Russian Church, to help serve the extremely large number of Russian faithful living in the Holy Land.
You mean both Russian Ecclesiastical Missions do you? Because there are two- the ROCOR Mission and the Moscow Patriarchate Mission. If its all so above board and just about accomodating Russian Pilgrims- why the need for two Russian Missions under two different jurisdictions?

Because the Jerusalem Patriarchate was always quite clear that it was not going to take sides in the ongoing split between ROCOR and the MP and so allowed each group to maintain a descendent of the existing metochion.

Now that ROCOR and the MP are feeling their way back into reconciliation, the separate metochions will presumably eventually be merged. But as I've said before, expecting everybody to just forget a century's worth of ill-feelings and act like nothing happened is uncharitable--and thankfully not the pastoral approach of our bishops (in Russia, in ROCOR, or in the surrounding jurisdictions). This stuff takes time to heal.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2009, 02:54:23 PM »
Because if you weren't busy trying to make cheap points, you would recall that in the early part of last century, the Russian Church went through a very painful time of trial and division. More painful for those who remained in Russia and became martyrs and confessors, but painful and confusing for those parishes and missions outside of Russia that found their traditional lines of authority cut or hopelessly confused. The sentence above clearly refers to how that was resolved for the *existing* metochion.
What has this got to do with the Russian Church "going through a very painful time"? What I am asking is why there is a Cathedral Church in Jerusalem under the Moscow Patriarchate and another Church in Jerusalem under the ROCOR Synod? That is- why have two jurisdictions placed Churches in another Bishop's territory?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 02:55:12 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2009, 03:07:39 PM »
OK, against my better judgement, I'm going to stick my head in long enough to ask a question that has always bothered me:  Why are there Greek monks in a place that is historically Palestinian?  Shouldn't the EO Jerusalem Patriarch and the monks in the patriarchate be Orthodox Christians who are Palestinian?  I'm not trying to start another argument.  I'm genuinely curious. 

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2009, 03:10:14 PM »
1.  The Russian Church Abroad in Jerusalem exists at the pleasure of the Patriarch of Jerusalem
Then why, in their own words was the ROCOR Mission to the Holy Land "placed under the the Highest Church Authority abroad (predecessor of the Synod of Bishops)"

It was not the "ROCOR mission in the Holy Land."   The Russian Church Abroad was seen by the Jerusalem Patriarchate as the only responsible body in the free world which was able to continue the work of the pre-Revolutionary Russian Ecclesiatical Mission in the Holy Land and take care of the Russian churches and monasteries and the Russian monks and nuns.   Formerly they were cared for from Russia, by both the Church and the Tsar.   But after the Communists came to power in Russia not a soul from Soviet Russia gave a tinker's cuss about the Holy Land.  The work of maintaining the Russian churches, monasteries and monastics fell to the refugees and emigres, i.e., the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.  This became a heavy financial burden to an emigre group with virtually no finances.  People in the West became accustomed to annual appeals from Jerusalem to fix leaking church roofs, etc.   The money from Imperial Russia had disappeared.  Pilgrims no longer came from Imperial Russia and left their donations for the churches and monasteries.

The Russian Church Abroad struggled for 70 years to maintain the Russian institutions in the Holy Land.  Now, by God's mercy, the pilgrims are returning.

Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2009, 03:11:19 PM »
The Russian ecclesial mission is under the omophorion of the Patriarch of Jerusalem and exists with his blessing, and is administered, with his knowledge and blessing, by the Russian Church, to help serve the extremely large number of Russian faithful living in the Holy Land.
You mean both Russian Ecclesiastical Missions do you? Because there are two- the ROCOR Mission and the Moscow Patriarchate Mission. If its all so above board and just about accomodating Russian Pilgrims- why the need for two Russian Missions under two different jurisdictions?

Also, are you familiar with the concept of a metochion?
Um yes. I'm Greek. So you are saying that these missions are monastic dependencies are you? So why does the MP have a Cathedral in Jerusalem?

Both of the Russian Missions operate with the knowledge, blessing, and consent of the Patriarch of Jerusalem, and indeed, they have historically been very helpful to the local Church and the local faithful.

As to why there are two of them if it's just about "accomodating" (sic) the Russian pilgrims, the answer is simple.  Because of the unfortunate circumstances of communism, ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarchate suspended communion with each other for several decades, and the Russian faithful were split, which included the Russian presence in the Holy Land.  Both ROCOR and the MP, however, remained in communion with the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, who, apparently, didn't take sides but allowed both Missions to continue to exist.

Now ROCOR and the MP are back together and things are slowly being reintegrated.

And no, I wasn't saying that they were monastic dependencies.  I wasn't saying anything.  I was simply asking if you were familiar with the concept so I could proceed further.  The existence of metochia demonstrates that it is possible, with the blessing of both bishops involved and their good will, to set up institutions that are not part of the normal diocesan structure of the surrounding area.

Since the Churches commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem and exist with his blessing, and since neither Jerusalem nor Moscow have any problem with the situation, what exactly is it that upsets you?  I honestly don't understand.

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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2009, 03:13:11 PM »
OK, against my better judgement, I'm going to stick my head in long enough to ask a question that has always bothered me:  Why are there Greek monks in a place that is historically Palestinian?  Shouldn't the EO Jerusalem Patriarch and the monks in the patriarchate be Orthodox Christians who are Palestinian?  I'm not trying to start another argument.  I'm genuinely curious. 
See, its not about race Salpy, its about jurisdiction.
In 1872, the Eastern Orthodox Churches held a Pan-Orthodox Synod which anathemised "phyletism". What happened was that the Church of Bulgaria had established its own Church in Istanbul. The Synod decreed that this could not be done because all Churches in a Synod's territory have to be under that Synod. It doesn't matter if the Patriarch of Jerusalem is Russian, Greek, Arab or Eskimo; no other Bishop can establish a Cathedral Church on his territory.
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Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2009, 03:14:43 PM »
Because if you weren't busy trying to make cheap points, you would recall that in the early part of last century, the Russian Church went through a very painful time of trial and division. More painful for those who remained in Russia and became martyrs and confessors, but painful and confusing for those parishes and missions outside of Russia that found their traditional lines of authority cut or hopelessly confused. The sentence above clearly refers to how that was resolved for the *existing* metochion.
What has this got to do with the Russian Church "going through a very painful time"? What I am asking is why there is a Cathedral Church in Jerusalem under the Moscow Patriarchate and another Church in Jerusalem under the ROCOR Synod? That is- why have two jurisdictions placed Churches in another Bishop's territory?

Because both Ecclesiastical Missions are under the Patriarch of Jerusalem, exist with his knowledge and blessing, and are administered, again with his knowledge and blessing, by ROCOR and the MP.  The Mission has been very helpful and beneficial over the years to the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.  No one has "placed" anything in anyone's territory without their knowledge or consent.

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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2009, 03:15:12 PM »
Since the Churches commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem and exist with his blessing, and since neither Jerusalem nor Moscow have any problem with the situation, what exactly is it that upsets you?  I honestly don't understand.
I see, so the Russian Cathedral in Jerusalem is the Cathedral Church of the Patriarch of Jerusalem is it? ::)
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2009, 03:16:59 PM »
I think it's not a Cathedral because there is a see of a Bishop, but it's a Cathedral because it's simply an important Church and actually it's not a Cathedral (like Cathedral of St. Sava in Belgrade, which is not a Cathedral).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 03:17:20 PM by mike »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2009, 03:17:28 PM »
It doesn't have to appoint a Bishop to the Mission, the Mission is under the authority of the Synod of the Russian Church Abroard

Please have a look at this photos on this page.  It is a page of the Administration of the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem.

http://www.jerusalem-mission.org/administration.html

Whose photo is there in place Number One..?    Could it be a Greek chap they call the Patriarch of Jerusalem? 



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Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2009, 03:18:50 PM »
Since the Churches commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem and exist with his blessing, and since neither Jerusalem nor Moscow have any problem with the situation, what exactly is it that upsets you?  I honestly don't understand.
I see, so the Russian Cathedral in Jerusalem is the Cathedral Church of the Patriarch of Jerusalem is it? ::)

Would you kindly respond to the substance of the thread instead of simply pulling out sentences and making sarcastic remarks based on them?

Please tell us: What is your concern?

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2009, 03:21:11 PM »
 The abbesses of the monasteries of the Russian Church Abroad are installed only with the approval of the Patriarch of Jerusalem who sometimes conducts the installation himself.
Sometimes eh?


It lies within the choice of the Most Blessed Patriarch of Jerusalem, successor to the Holy Apostle James.   The Patriarch is sole master of what takes place in the Holy City .
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 03:22:06 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2009, 03:23:33 PM »
It doesn't have to appoint a Bishop to the Mission, the Mission is under the authority of the Synod of the Russian Church Abroard

Please have a look at this photos on this page.  It is a page of the Administration of the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem.

http://www.jerusalem-mission.org/administration.html

Whose photo is there in place Number One..?    Could it be a Greek chap they call the Patriarch of Jerusalem? 



His Beatitude,
Patriarch Theophilus,
of the Holy City of Jerusalem
Whose photo is there in place Number One..?   

Well, there must be a new Synod in Jerusalem because whose photo is number two?

Metropolitan Hilarion,
First Hierarch of the
Russian Orthodox Church Abroad

And Number three?

V. Rev. Archimandrite Joasaph (McLellan)
Chief of the Mission

I've never heard of this Synod, have you?
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Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2009, 03:26:46 PM »
It doesn't have to appoint a Bishop to the Mission, the Mission is under the authority of the Synod of the Russian Church Abroard

Please have a look at this photos on this page.  It is a page of the Administration of the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem.

http://www.jerusalem-mission.org/administration.html

Whose photo is there in place Number One..?    Could it be a Greek chap they call the Patriarch of Jerusalem? 



His Beatitude,
Patriarch Theophilus,
of the Holy City of Jerusalem
Whose photo is there in place Number One..?   

Well, there must be a new Synod in Jerusalem because whose photo is number two?

Metropolitan Hilarion,
First Hierarch of the
Russian Orthodox Church Abroad

And Number three?

V. Rev. Archimandrite Joasaph (McLellan)
Chief of the Mission

I've never heard of this Synod, have you?


This situation has already been explained to you.  The Mission is under the Patriarch of Jerusalem, and is administered on his behalf, with his blessing, by the Church Abroad.

Both Churches are okay with it, it provides for the faithful, both Russian and Arab without distinction, and no canons are being violated.

What are you upset about?

Grace and peace,
Sbn John

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2009, 03:31:42 PM »
You mean both Russian Ecclesiastical Missions do you? Because there are two- the ROCOR Mission and the Moscow Patriarchate Mission. If its all so above board and just about accomodating Russian Pilgrims- why the need for two Russian Missions under two different jurisdictions?

After Perestroika in 1991 and the new found freedom of travel for the citizens of Russia, pilgrims from the old Soviet Union began to return to the Holy Land.   The Church of Russia began to take an interest in it again.

And so, up until 2007 when the Church of Russia and the Russian Church Abroad were united, there have been two Russian representations in the Holy Land.

This division ceased with the Russian Church union in 2007.  For example, now our (Russian Church Abroad) monastery in the Garden of Gethsemane has as many nuns from Russia as it has from the Holy Land and America and Australia.

The process is already underway to unite the two groups, just as the process is underway throughout Western Europe to unite the dioceses of the Church Abroad and those of Moscow.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2009, 03:32:02 PM »
And in the case of Jerusalem, I fail to see why Phanariots should bemoan the presence of Russians, except the Russians aid the local, Arab Faithful, thereby endangering the tomb worshippers' colony.
Because the Orthodox Church has condemned Phyletism. But I suppose that's meaningless to someone who calls people "Phanariots".

I call carpetbaggars Phanariots, and the tomb worshippers in Jerusalem certainly fit the description.

I'm aware that the Orthodox Church has condemned Phyletism, but I think you are referring to the Phanariot Pot Synod that called the Bulgarian Kettle black. Ironically, the Patriarch of Jerusalem was excommunicated in 1873 by this "Synod" because he wouldn't take part in its hypocrisy, and left.  The Greeks of Smyrna greeted him with cheers of "Traitor!" "Muscovite!" because phyletism, of course, only meant distinction of races in the Churches when they asserted themselves in wanting to pray in their own language, not when the Phanariots wanted to Hellenize their subject peoples, Moscow having helped the subjected in the former in resisting the latter.  The hypocrites decreed "The Apostle Paul has commanded us to take heed to ourselves and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made us bishops, to govern the Church of God, which He has purchased with His Own Blood; and has at the same predicted that grievous wolves shall enter among us, not sparing the flock, and that of our own selves men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them; and he has warned us to beware of such...such men have lately appeared the Bulgarian people within the jurisdiction of the Holy Ecumenical Throne.  They have dared to introduce into the Church the idea of phyletism, or the National Church, which is of the temporal life....having examined the principles of phyletism with reference to the precepts of the Gospel and the temporal constitution of the Church of God, we have found it not only foreign, but in enmity to them...in view of the definitions of the Fathers of the Church, we ordain as follows:

ARTICLE I.  We censure, condemn and declare contrary to the teachings of the Gospel and the sacred canons of the holy Fathers, the doctrine of phyletism, or the diference of races and national diversity in the bosom of the Church of Christ. "

ARTICLE II.  We declare the adherents of phyletism, who have had the boldness to set up an lawful uprecedented Church assembly upon such a principle, to be foreign and absolutely schismatic, to the only holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church....together with all who have been ordained by them to be archbishops, priests and deacons; all persons, spiritual and worldly, who are in communion with them; all who act in cooperation with them; and all who accept as lawful and canonical their unholy blessings and ceremonies of worship."
Appleton's annual cyclopaedia and register of important events, Volume 41
http://books.google.com/books?id=BrofAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA271&dq=Appletons'+1872+phyletism&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The tomb worshipping hypocrites were not please, and issued there deposition of the Patriarch.  The excommunication of their Patriarch for breach of Omonogeia, er, phyletism, stated:
"relative to to the acceptance of the resolution of the Grand and Holy Council legally and canonically convoked at Constantinople-by which resolution phyletism (that is, the distinction of raceds and nationalities in teh Church) was rejected and condemned, and all who approved this phyletism and who, inspired thereby, have held up to this day illegal and clandestine meetings, were declared to be schismatics-have unanimously decreed and do decree as follows: In consideration that his Holiness....refused to join in the recognition of the Grand Council, that he also, in Jerusalem obstinately, and without sufficient reason, opposed to the invitations and prayers addressed by us to him...in consideration of all this, we consider him as having incurred the ecclesiastical censures which are expressly contained in the said resolution of the Grand Council, and as being, de facto, schismatic.  And we find ourselves in the sad and painful necessity to take back the oath of submissiveness and obedience taken by us toward him, and henceforth to break off all connection and communion with him, and we shall never more perform any function with him, or in any respect act with him, and we shall no longer recognize him as head, and as our lawful and canonical shepherd."
Appletons a̕nnual cyclopædia and register of important events ..., Volume 13
http://books.google.com/books?id=OXbXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA340&dq=Appletons'+1872+phyletism&lr=&cd=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false
yet jurisdiction by races.

It was annulled a few years later.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2009, 03:33:51 PM »
I really do not understand this willingness (and glee) to insult the first See  of our Church, like in the post and thread above.


Romania was glad to get rid of its Phanariots.  Some of us are still waiting, and those who have, why shouldn't they rejoice?
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2009, 03:34:29 PM »
So why does the MP have a Cathedral in Jerusalem?

"Cathedral" in Russian does not necessarily mean the church is the seat of a bishop.  Important churches in the Russian world are called cathedrals.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2009, 03:37:39 PM »
OK, against my better judgement, I'm going to stick my head in long enough to ask a question that has always bothered me:  Why are there Greek monks in a place that is historically Palestinian?  Shouldn't the EO Jerusalem Patriarch and the monks in the patriarchate be Orthodox Christians who are Palestinian?  I'm not trying to start another argument.  I'm genuinely curious.  

The Phanariots claim that the the Church of Jerusalem is not what is really autocephalous, but the Tomb of Christ, and that the Tomb remains the responsibility of the Greek nation exclusively.  Therefore the local Church is irrelevant.

OK, against my better judgement, I'm going to stick my head in long enough to ask a question that has always bothered me:  Why are there Greek monks in a place that is historically Palestinian?  Shouldn't the EO Jerusalem Patriarch and the monks in the patriarchate be Orthodox Christians who are Palestinian?  I'm not trying to start another argument.  I'm genuinely curious. 
See, its not about race Salpy, its about jurisdiction.
In 1872, the Eastern Orthodox Churches held a Pan-Orthodox Synod which anathemised "phyletism". What happened was that the Church of Bulgaria had established its own Church in Istanbul. The Synod decreed that this could not be done because all Churches in a Synod's territory have to be under that Synod. It doesn't matter if the Patriarch of Jerusalem is Russian, Greek, Arab or Eskimo; no other Bishop can establish a Cathedral Church on his territory.

Oh, it matters a great deal, at least to the Phanariots.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 03:41:25 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline Rosehip

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2009, 03:39:59 PM »
Lord have mercy. I am completely in shock. So out of touch, apparently. Archimandrite Joasaph has reposed only a few days ago this December. What a shock. My love and condolences to his family. May Archimandrite Joasaph's memory be eternal.
+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2009, 03:41:07 PM »

V. Rev. Archimandrite Joasaph (McLellan)
Chief of the Mission



May the Lord grant rest to our Father Ioasaph (Francis Joseph McLellan) who was buried only a few days ago.  47 years of age.  A priest for one year and one week.  Cancer took him from this life within 4 months of its discovery.

An Irishman by descent and proud of his heritage, and ex-professor of Slavonic languages at Princeton.  Intended to become our bishop for the Diocese of Australia and New Zealand.   We mourn him greatly.

May God grant eternal rest to the soul of this young man.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2009, 03:43:19 PM »
I think it's not a Cathedral because there is a see of a Bishop, but it's a Cathedral because it's simply an important Church and actually it's not a Cathedral (like Cathedral of St. Sava in Belgrade, which is not a Cathedral).
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2009, 03:43:33 PM »
I am completely shocked. I studied Church Slavonic in one of his classes. He was a brilliant and engaging teacher. So young. My deepest sympathies again to his family and all who were close to him.

I am sorry to derail this thread, but this is so hard to grasp.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 03:45:16 PM by Rosehip »
+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2009, 03:43:50 PM »
So why does the MP have a Cathedral in Jerusalem?

"Cathedral" in Russian does not necessarily mean the church is the seat of a bishop.  Important churches in the Russian world are called cathedrals.

Is it roughly analgous to the Roman "basilica"?
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2009, 03:46:51 PM »
The Phanariots claim that the the Church of Jerusalem is not what is really autocephalous, but the Tomb of Christ, and that the Tomb remains the responsibility of the Greek nation exclusively.  Therefore the local Church is irrelevant.
Do they now?....

OK, against my better judgement, I'm going to stick my head in long enough to ask a question that has always bothered me:  Why are there Greek monks in a place that is historically Palestinian?  Shouldn't the EO Jerusalem Patriarch and the monks in the patriarchate be Orthodox Christians who are Palestinian?  I'm not trying to start another argument.  I'm genuinely curious. 
See, its not about race Salpy, its about jurisdiction.
In 1872, the Eastern Orthodox Churches held a Pan-Orthodox Synod which anathemised "phyletism". What happened was that the Church of Bulgaria had established its own Church in Istanbul. The Synod decreed that this could not be done because all Churches in a Synod's territory have to be under that Synod. It doesn't matter if the Patriarch of Jerusalem is Russian, Greek, Arab or Eskimo; no other Bishop can establish a Cathedral Church on his territory.

Oh, it matters a great deal, at least to the Phanariots.
Does it now?....
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Offline witega

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2009, 04:06:46 PM »
Because if you weren't busy trying to make cheap points, you would recall that in the early part of last century, the Russian Church went through a very painful time of trial and division. More painful for those who remained in Russia and became martyrs and confessors, but painful and confusing for those parishes and missions outside of Russia that found their traditional lines of authority cut or hopelessly confused. The sentence above clearly refers to how that was resolved for the *existing* metochion.
What has this got to do with the Russian Church "going through a very painful time"? What I am asking is why there is a Cathedral Church in Jerusalem under the Moscow Patriarchate and another Church in Jerusalem under the ROCOR Synod? That is- why have two jurisdictions placed Churches in another Bishop's territory?

First, it seems we do need to go back to ThePilgrim's question. Do you even understand what a metochion is, and that it is a practice recognized by all the Orthdoox Church's and exercised by most?
Here is a link to a picture of Constantinople's metochion in Moscow: http://virtour.su/pano.php?id=85&mar=1
And here is one to Alexandria's:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_All_Saints,_Moscow

In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.

Second, contrary to your implication, ROCOR did not open any metochions in the territory of the Jerusalem Patriarchate. And I very much doubt that the MP has since the 19th century. When the Russian Church split in the wake of the Communist revolution, some of the metochion clergy went with Metropolitan Anthony's "outside of Russia" synod; others struggled to stay in contact with Moscow and remained under it once the situation lightened under Patriarch Sergius (just as happened in North America and Western Europe). Jerusalem could have asserted its authority and placed all the metochions under one or the other division, however, as Jerusalem maintained relations with both sides of the split, they seem to have generally taken the position "we granted metochion status to the Russians, decide amongst yourselves which synod of the Russian Church that means" Although, in the 1990s, in what was the last major strife between ROCOR and the MP, the JP actually did exercise it's authority, moving a couple of ROCOR's metochions to the administration of the MP. The fact that they remain under separate administrations goes directly to the fact that the Russian Church 'outside of Russia' has been under separate administrations for a century and is only now healing that breach.

As to why Jerusalem granted Russia so many metochions back in the 19th century, you'd have to ask Jerusalem--though given the timing it seems likely that it was a resource issue. By letting the Church of Russia, backed by Russia's resources, take responsibility for a number of 'minor' holy places, the JP could focus its own more limited resources elsewhere (the Holy Sepulchre, the Church of the Nativity, etc).

All the Russian metochions, like any other metochion, exist strictly at the sufferance of the ruling bishop. If the JP told the Russians to go home tomorrow, no one claims that the Russian church would have any choice but to hand over the keys and leave.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2009, 04:24:19 PM »
OK, against my better judgement, I'm going to stick my head in long enough to ask a question that has always bothered me:  Why are there Greek monks in a place that is historically Palestinian?  Shouldn't the EO Jerusalem Patriarch and the monks in the patriarchate be Orthodox Christians who are Palestinian?  I'm not trying to start another argument.  I'm genuinely curious. 
See, its not about race Salpy, its about jurisdiction.
In 1872, the Eastern Orthodox Churches held a Pan-Orthodox Synod which anathemised "phyletism". What happened was that the Church of Bulgaria had established its own Church in Istanbul. The Synod decreed that this could not be done because all Churches in a Synod's territory have to be under that Synod. It doesn't matter if the Patriarch of Jerusalem is Russian, Greek, Arab or Eskimo; no other Bishop can establish a Cathedral Church on his territory.

That still doesn't explain why the EO leadership and most, if not all, of the monks there are not Orthodox Palestinians.  I'm not saying the EO Patriarch and monks there have to be Palestinian.  I'm just wondering why none of them are, when they are the people native to the area.  Is there a reason why the Patriarch and his monks can't be Palestinian?  Or are there no worthy candidates for these positions among the Orthodox Palestinians?  It just seems like a weird situation that the Orthodox Church of a particular region is run exclusively by people from another part of the world.  I'm just wondering why that is.  Is there a historical reason for this?

Offline augustin717

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2009, 04:25:30 PM »
Quote
The Greeks of Smyrna greeted him with cheers of "Traitor!" "Muscovite!" because phyletism, of course, only meant distinction of races in the Churches when they asserted themselves in wanting to pray in their own language, not when the Phanariots wanted to Hellenize their subject peoples, Moscow having helped the subjected in the former in resisting the latter.
This is not entirely true, I mean, reality was far more complex, even back then.
The Russians were advancing throughout the Balkans their panslavist ideas, so it just happened that Bulgarians were deemed assimilable enough; at exactly the same time, they were busy suppresing any trace of the "Moldovan" language in the Eparchy of Chisinau (Basarabia/Moldova).
And, we were never forced to use Greek in our churches, despite having been formally, under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate for a few centuries. Even during the real Phanariot period, Greek was only used in the metropolitan cathedrals of Bucuresti and Iasi and a few other churches, not exclusively though, but alongside Slavonic and Romanian. Yet the use of the vernacular was no longer possible in Basarabia shortly after its uncannonical annexation by the Russian church.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 04:26:21 PM by augustin717 »

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2009, 04:25:41 PM »
In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2009, 04:35:29 PM »
I'm not saying the EO Patriarch and monks there have to be Palestinian.  I'm just wondering why none of them are, when they are the people native to the area.
Salpy, what are you talking about? There are Palestinian Archbishops in the Synod of the Jerusalem Patriarchate. Where are you getting your information? The Archbishop Theodosios of Sebastia is Palestinian, born in Galilee and was called "Nizar Hanna" in the world.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2009, 04:41:47 PM »
That still doesn't explain why the EO leadership and most, if not all, of the monks there are not Orthodox Palestinians.  I'm not saying the EO Patriarch and monks there have to be Palestinian.  I'm just wondering why none of them are, when they are the people native to the area.  Is there a reason why the Patriarch and his monks can't be Palestinian?  Or are there no worthy candidates for these positions among the Orthodox Palestinians?  It just seems like a weird situation that the Orthodox Church of a particular region is run exclusively by people from another part of the world.  I'm just wondering why that is.  Is there a historical reason for this?

There is one Arab bishop on the Holy Synod - H.G. Theodosios Atallah Hanna - who was also the official spokesperson of the Patriarchate. When I asked one of the Greek Metropolitans in the Holy Land why there weren't more, he replied "...because we Greeks are chauvinists."

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2009, 04:53:38 PM »
Comments about Jerusalem sparked a memory of this poem below.  The author is Louis Hemmings of Dublin,
a purveyor of second-hand theological books.  He had been on a Jerusalem pilgrimage.
 


Old Abraham the Eternal Pilgrim
________________________________________________

With burning bright vision you tramped, old Abraham,
warmed in your rugged heart by the visions of candle-lit, paint cracked icons,
as you wandered through snow hushed taigas
& in the broken villages where  golden cupolas glow
with ancient sunset fire & choirs chant
St. Basils guttural plaintive liturgy,
unchanged for a thousand years the prophetic hope proclaiming.

You search for your true homeland
from the steppes of the Urals to the teeming streets of Jerusalem.
Almost with the authority of a Patriarch
you were welcomed when your staff rapped
the wooden doors thee times: in the name
of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost.

En route to the Holy Land you stored up black bread
& a few copecks, collecting prayer-petitions
in exchange for wayside shelter at night.
The peasants called you a half-remembered saint,
the bell of God; your call comes to me, sure & strong.  

I see you shuffle quietly with your blessing
among the benches where Orthodox faithful gather
in hostel at Jerusalem, its gold roof cupolas mirror the suns glory,
you move as a holy gift, making the sign of the cross with a home-made tin censer:
thick frankinsense perfumed smoke cleansing your
adopted pilgrim families, far from home but near to God.
These friends whom you greet & kiss ferverently,
repeating the litany: "Slava Tebye Gospody." - Praise be to Thee, O Lord!

Banging your pilgrim staff, you stand in the happy,
ragged circle of foot-blistered women, singing with them haunting,
melancholic minor-key Russian Psalms, then you spit mouthfulls of holy water
in their rapturous faces & bless them in the name of the Holy Trinity.

"Christ is risen! Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
Your watchman call comes to me from pre-Revolutionary Russia
before the sickle dripped sacrificial blood, before the exiles & executions;
the dead in Christ shall rise first on that last Judgement Day when the trumpet call comes.
Bells are replaced in your once-dumb churches,
let that jubilant struck brass ring triumphant.

 
Louis Hemmings @ Samovar Books, Ireland

« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 04:54:34 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2009, 04:55:47 PM »
The Phanariots claim that the the Church of Jerusalem is not what is really autocephalous, but the Tomb of Christ, and that the Tomb remains the responsibility of the Greek nation exclusively.  Therefore the local Church is irrelevant.
Do they now?....

OK, against my better judgement, I'm going to stick my head in long enough to ask a question that has always bothered me:  Why are there Greek monks in a place that is historically Palestinian?  Shouldn't the EO Jerusalem Patriarch and the monks in the patriarchate be Orthodox Christians who are Palestinian?  I'm not trying to start another argument.  I'm genuinely curious. 
See, its not about race Salpy, its about jurisdiction.
In 1872, the Eastern Orthodox Churches held a Pan-Orthodox Synod which anathemised "phyletism". What happened was that the Church of Bulgaria had established its own Church in Istanbul. The Synod decreed that this could not be done because all Churches in a Synod's territory have to be under that Synod. It doesn't matter if the Patriarch of Jerusalem is Russian, Greek, Arab or Eskimo; no other Bishop can establish a Cathedral Church on his territory.

Oh, it matters a great deal, at least to the Phanariots.
Does it now?....

Yes, or should I say "nai?"
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2009, 04:57:24 PM »
Comments about Jerusalem sparked a memory of this poem below.  The author is Louis Hemmings of Dublin,
a purveyor of second-hand theological books.  He had been on a Jerusalem pilgrimage.
 


Old Abraham the Eternal Pilgrim
________________________________________________

With burning bright vision you tramped, old Abraham,
warmed in your rugged heart by the visions of candle-lit, paint cracked icons,
as you wandered through snow hushed taigas
& in the broken villages where  golden cupolas glow
with ancient sunset fire & choirs chant
St. Basils guttural plaintive liturgy,
unchanged for a thousand years the prophetic hope proclaiming.

You search for your true homeland
from the steppes of the Urals to the teeming streets of Jerusalem.
Almost with the authority of a Patriarch
you were welcomed when your staff rapped
the wooden doors thee times: in the name
of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost.

En route to the Holy Land you stored up black bread
& a few copecks, collecting prayer-petitions
in exchange for wayside shelter at night.
The peasants called you a half-remembered saint,
the bell of God; your call comes to me, sure & strong. 

I see you shuffle quietly with your blessing
among the benches where Orthodox faithful gather
in hostel at Jerusalem, its gold roof cupolas mirror the suns glory,
you move as a holy gift, making the sign of the cross with a home-made tin censer:
thick frankinsense perfumed smoke cleansing your
adopted pilgrim families, far from home but near to God.
These friends whom you greet & kiss ferverently,
repeating the litany: "Slava Tebye Gospody." - Praise be to Thee, O Lord!

Banging your pilgrim staff, you stand in the happy,
ragged circle of foot-blistered women, singing with them haunting,
melancholic minor-key Russian Psalms, then you spit mouthfulls of holy water
in their rapturous faces & bless them in the name of the Holy Trinity.

"Christ is risen! Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
Your watchman call comes to me from pre-Revolutionary Russia
before the sickle dripped sacrificial blood, before the exiles & executions;
the dead in Christ shall rise first on that last Judgement Day when the trumpet call comes.
Bells are replaced in your once-dumb churches,
let that jubilant struck brass ring triumphant.

 
Louis Hemmings @ Samovar Books, Ireland


Beautiful.
Now, isn't it so much nicer to be chatting about Jerusalem than homosexuality in Finland? ;)
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2009, 05:10:56 PM »
Beautiful.
Now, isn't it so much nicer to be chatting about Jerusalem than homosexuality in Finland? ;)

Indeed it is, but why does homosexuality in Finland count as something distasteful to discuss?  Does it not advance the gay agenda towards same-sex marriage, something I have read you strongly supporting in another Forum.  IIRC, your positon is, a la Boswell, that same-sex marriages were conducted by the Greek Church up until the late 19th century when the influence of the Roman Catholic Church put the kibosh on them.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2009, 05:15:44 PM »
If I forget Thee Jerusalem, may my right hand wither and my tongue cleave to my mouth.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2009, 05:19:15 PM »
Quote
The Greeks of Smyrna greeted him with cheers of "Traitor!" "Muscovite!" because phyletism, of course, only meant distinction of races in the Churches when they asserted themselves in wanting to pray in their own language, not when the Phanariots wanted to Hellenize their subject peoples, Moscow having helped the subjected in the former in resisting the latter.
This is not entirely true, I mean, reality was far more complex, even back then.
The Russians were advancing throughout the Balkans their panslavist ideas, so it just happened that Bulgarians were deemed assimilable enough; at exactly the same time, they were busy suppresing any trace of the "Moldovan" language in the Eparchy of Chisinau (Basarabia/Moldova).

The Russians, at first at least, treated the Bulgarian affair as an internal affair on Constantinople.  And it wasn't just the Russian Consul in Jerusalem who supported the Patriarch of Jerusalen, but the Greek consul as well.

Quote
And, we were never forced to use Greek in our churches, despite having been formally, under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate for a few centuries. Even during the real Phanariot period, Greek was only used in the metropolitan cathedrals of Bucuresti and Iasi and a few other churches, not exclusively though, but alongside Slavonic and Romanian.

Romanian for DL was explicitely banned.  There were no Romanian bishops.

Quote
Yet the use of the vernacular was no longer possible in Basarabia shortly after its uncannonical annexation by the Russian church.

Uncanonical how?  Bessarabia was part of the Russian empire (in fact, the creation of the Russian empire).  The original bishops of Moldavia in the early days were from the Rus' in Galicia, in opposition to Constantinople appointing the bishops.  How legal the annexation by the empire is a different question.  Btw, the Russian forced their will on the Patriarchate of Jerusalem by preventing funds coming from Bessarabia, where the Phanariots had set up estates which raked the incocme into Jerusalem.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2009, 05:21:22 PM »
If I forget Thee Jerusalem, may my right hand wither and my tongue cleave to my mouth.

Reminded me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYr4Fz14C6w
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Offline witega

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2009, 05:25:08 PM »
In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2009, 05:26:43 PM »
In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
But everyone here claims that the Russian metochia in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2009, 05:34:58 PM »
In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
But everyone here claims that the Russian metochia in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

There seems to be a mistaken idea that the churches and monasteries of the Russian Churches (Moscow, but mainly the Church Abroad) are constituted as metochia in the Holy Land.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2009, 05:39:17 PM »
In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
But everyone here claims that the Russian metochia in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
There seems to be a mistaken idea that the churches and monasteries of the Russian Churches (Moscow, but mainly the Church Abroad) are constituted as metochia in the Holy Land.
So if they are not metochia, then what are they?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 05:39:55 PM by ozgeorge »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2009, 05:43:28 PM »
In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
But everyone here claims that the Russian metochia in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
There seems to be a mistaken idea that the churches and monasteries of the Russian Churches (Moscow, but mainly the Church Abroad) are constituted as metochia in the Holy Land.
So if they are not metochia, then what are they?


Pretty much what they look like - churches and monasteries.  The Russians created them out of their enormous love for the holy places and the Patriarch of Jerusalem has always been happy to have them within his patriarchate.  They commemorate him, they serve on his antimensia.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2009, 05:56:59 PM »
How many people know that the Russian convent in Gethsemane owes its existence to a Scottish woman who converted to Orthodoxy?

"A small convent grew around the church in Gethsemane Garden. It was founded in 1934 with the blessing of Blessed Metropolitan Anastassy by a Scottish convert to Orthodoxy, Barbara Robinson, who later became Abbess Mary.

"In 1932, two Englishwomen: Barbara-Stella Robinson and Alix Sprot, became zealous devotees of the Faith of Christ and finally converted and were tonsured. The former, given the monastic name of Mary, came to know the fullness of the Faith just like her namesake—at the feet of her teacher; Nun Mary learned from a lantern of the Church of Christ, Metropolitan Anastassy. The other, taking the name Martha, dedicated herself totally to the monastic service of the younger sisters and to children. The two of them, through their resources and labors, enabled the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem to create a new community in Bethany, and a school for Arab girls (now there are some 350 students enrolled). Mother Mary was appointed by the Synod of Bishops as the Abbess of this community and was elevated to the rank of hegumenia.
"She settled with some of the sisters in the Russian part of Gethsemane Garden at the Church of St Mary Magdalene, where the system of daily services gradually took hold and monastic life was established. Nun Martha remained in Bethany."

Source :: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/8enjerusalemday6.html



Mother Mary (Barbara Robinson) on left

Offline witega

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2009, 06:45:08 PM »
In the first, the clergy are appointed by the EP and they commemorate him. In the second, the clergy are appointed by the Pope of Alexandria and the commemorate him. Though both are in the diocese of the Patriarch of Moscow.
How do you know that they commemorate their own Patriarchs?

Because if they didn't, they wouldn't be metochions. It's part of the standing definition and practice for representation churches.
But everyone here claims that the Russian metochia in Jerusalem commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Metochion commemorate both. We've had this discussion before about the Russian Patriarchal parishes in North America. The church commemorates the hierarch to which they 'belong' administratively and they commemorate the hieararch on whose canonical territory and at whose discretion they exist.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2009, 06:45:42 PM »
That still doesn't explain why the EO leadership and most, if not all, of the monks there are not Orthodox Palestinians.  I'm not saying the EO Patriarch and monks there have to be Palestinian.  I'm just wondering why none of them are, when they are the people native to the area.  Is there a reason why the Patriarch and his monks can't be Palestinian?  Or are there no worthy candidates for these positions among the Orthodox Palestinians?  It just seems like a weird situation that the Orthodox Church of a particular region is run exclusively by people from another part of the world.  I'm just wondering why that is.  Is there a historical reason for this?

There is one Arab bishop on the Holy Synod - H.G. Theodosios Atallah Hanna - who was also the official spokesperson of the Patriarchate. When I asked one of the Greek Metropolitans in the Holy Land why there weren't more, he replied "...because we Greeks are chauvinists."

How did the Greeks get to be in control of the Patriarchate in the first place?

Also, I want to make it clear to everyone that I am not trying to bash Greeks.  I like Greeks very much.  His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is one of my favorite people.   :)  I'm just wondering about the situation in Jerusalem and how it got to be that way.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2009, 07:20:05 PM »
That still doesn't explain why the EO leadership and most, if not all, of the monks there are not Orthodox Palestinians.  I'm not saying the EO Patriarch and monks there have to be Palestinian.  I'm just wondering why none of them are, when they are the people native to the area.  Is there a reason why the Patriarch and his monks can't be Palestinian?  Or are there no worthy candidates for these positions among the Orthodox Palestinians?  It just seems like a weird situation that the Orthodox Church of a particular region is run exclusively by people from another part of the world.  I'm just wondering why that is.  Is there a historical reason for this?

There is one Arab bishop on the Holy Synod - H.G. Theodosios Atallah Hanna - who was also the official spokesperson of the Patriarchate. When I asked one of the Greek Metropolitans in the Holy Land why there weren't more, he replied "...because we Greeks are chauvinists."

How did the Greeks get to be in control of the Patriarchate in the first place?

The Turks put the Phanar in charge.


Quote
Also, I want to make it clear to everyone that I am not trying to bash Greeks.  I like Greeks very much.  His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is one of my favorite people.   :)  I'm just wondering about the situation in Jerusalem and how it got to be that way.

http://www.frmichel.najim.net/brotherenglish.pdf
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Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2009, 10:09:54 PM »
The Turks aren't in charge of Jerusalem anymore, so why is the Greek Church still in control?  Why haven't the Palestinians been given control of their own territory? 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 10:14:28 PM by katherine 2001 »

Offline observer

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2009, 10:35:10 PM »
An excellent question.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2009, 10:55:10 PM »
The Turks aren't in charge of Jerusalem anymore, so why is the Greek Church still in control?  Why haven't the Palestinians been given control of their own territory? 

There is a possibility that within a few generations there will be a geuninely Hebrew Orthodox Church once again in the Holy Land....a  renewed and strengthened Patriarchate of Jerusalem composed mainly of Russian Orthodox Christians of Jewish origin.... a Jew (probably of Russian origin) will once again be Patriarch of Jerusalem and sitting on the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord!

 

"The Russians Are Coming" to rescue the Holy Land?

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/494/op1.htm

There have been significant changes to Israeli religious demographics over the last 15 years, thanks to the influx of more than 1 million Russians. One in 5 Israelis is now Russian, 20% of the population. A proportion of these are Jews by ancestry but Russian Orthodox Christians by religion. The numbers are large enough to cause anxiety in the Knesset.  Today new Orthodox churches are being built throughout Israel and even on the kibbutzim! The Russians and the Arabs are brother Orthodox in Israel and together they will bring a new springtime of Christianity to the Mother Church of Jerusalem.


"I was recently given two startling pieces of information by a visiting Palestinian friend from Jerusalem. One was that there were several Russian Orthodox Christian churches being built in the southern Israeli town of Beersheba.... <snip>

"Just as remarkable is Lustick's observation that a significant number of the newcomers had registered themselves either as Christians or persons of no religion at all. As a result of this situation, the Russians, or to put it another way, non-Arab Christians [i.e., Russians] are the fastest growing Israeli religious community and now constitute 8-9 per cent of the non-Arab population of the state... <snip>"
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/494/op1.htm

One factor with which the Jerusalem Patriarchate will have to come to terms in the near future is the large numbers of Russian Orthodox who are now part of its flock. These are Jews genetically and Orthodox Christians religiously. Jerusalem has set up a church department for the Russians but it seems inadequate for the numbers of Russians involved. In the years ahead the character of the Patriarchate will be altered by the Russian Orthodox influx.

Another article:

http://portal-credo.ru/site/print.php?act=news&id=33276

Last wave of immigration sharply increased
the number of secret Orthodox Christians in Israel


Although official statistics indicate that the number of Christians in Israel is constantly decreasing, in reality, EAI data shows that there is a large number of secret Christians among the Jews who arrived from Russia and Ukraine between 1989-1993.

Thus, the research conducted among 86,000 new immigrants in 1999 demonstrated that approximately 53% of them cannot be considered Jews in accordance with Judaic law. Available data suggest approximately 400,000 "unregistered [Orthodox] Christians" arrived with the last wave of immigration.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2009, 11:01:34 PM »
The Turks aren't in charge of Jerusalem anymore, so why is the Greek Church still in control?  Why haven't the Palestinians been given control of their own territory? 

Here are the Jewish statistics for immigration from the Soviet Union/Russia, covering 1948 to 2006.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Immigration/FSU.html

It's a very high percentage of Israel's population of 6,400,000
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

As I have mentioned above, it is the influx of Russian Orthodox Christians who are genetically Jewish which will ensure the survival of Christianity in Israel. Although they are rarely mentioned, they already outnumber all the other Christians in Israel and are building churches. God is blessing the Orthodox in the Holy Land with great hope for the future.

These Russian Christian Jews use both Hebrew and Slavonic in their services. In time we will see a unique phenomenon emerging - a truly Jewish Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and a Jew (of Russian background) sitting on the Throne of Saint James the Just as Patriarch of Jerusalem.

The Arab Orthodox are already outnumbered by the Russian Orthodox.   The Greek Orthodox in the Holy Land are only a small number but they presently control the hierarchy who are not usually Israelis but imports from Greece or Alexandria.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2009, 11:01:57 PM »
The Turks aren't in charge of Jerusalem anymore, so why is the Greek Church still in control?  Why haven't the Palestinians been given control of their own territory? 

LOL.  The Palestinians have been asking the same question.  And not just over the Church.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2009, 12:24:47 AM »
so why is the Greek Church still in control?

The "Greek Church" does not exist. There is the Church of Greece, which does not control Jerusalem. There is the Church of Constantinople, which does not control Jerusalem. The Church of Jerusalem remains an autocephalous Church, as it has been for the past 1500 years, and it controls its own territory. I'm not saying this to be pedantic, but to identify churches with ethnicity ("Greeks belong to 'the Greek Church'") doesn't help debates such as these.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2009, 12:59:15 AM »
so why is the Greek Church still in control?

The "Greek Church" does not exist. There is the Church of Greece, which does not control Jerusalem. There is the Church of Constantinople, which does not control Jerusalem. The Church of Jerusalem remains an autocephalous Church, as it has been for the past 1500 years, and it controls its own territory. I'm not saying this to be pedantic, but to identify churches with ethnicity ("Greeks belong to 'the Greek Church'") doesn't help debates such as these.
She is right about this one.  As I posted about, Constantinople made sure the Patriarchate of Jerusalem paid for his lack of Omogeneia over the whole Bulgarian issue.

All the Greeks in Palestine are from Greece or Cyprus.  The schools that the Patriarchate runs are run for Greeks from Greece: the local Arabs only gained access when, during the Intifadah, the Greeks stopped coming (they teach the Arabs Greek from textbooks from the Greek Ministry of Education, so they "can go to school.").  It is the Phanariots-all 500 or so of them in Palestine (there being no local Greek population)-who identify the Church with ethnicity.  And that's the Greek flag they are waving.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2009, 02:33:24 AM »
Quote
Romanian for DL was explicitely banned.  There were no Romanian bishops.
There were not only Romanian bishops, but even metropolitans, such as Veniamin Costachi. I am talking about the Phanariot period (1711-1821).
Romanian has been continuously used in the cult since the end of the seventeenth century, not everywhere, but gaining more and more space, as time passed.

U
Quote
ncanonical how?  Bessarabia was part of the Russian empire (in fact, the creation of the Russian empire).  The original bishops of Moldavia in the early days were from the Rus' in Galicia, in opposition to Constantinople appointing the bishops.  How legal the annexation by the empire is a different question.  Btw, the Russian forced their will on the Patriarchate of Jerusalem by preventing funds coming from Bessarabia, where the Phanariots had set up estates which raked the incocme into Jerusalem.]Uncanonical how?  Bessarabia was part of the Russian empire (in fact, the creation of the Russian empire).  The original bishops of Moldavia in the early days were from the Rus' in Galicia, in opposition to Constantinople appointing the bishops.  How legal the annexation by the empire is a different question.  Btw, the Russian forced their will on the Patriarchate of Jerusalem by preventing funds coming from Bessarabia, where the Phanariots had set up estates which raked the incocme into Jerusalem.
Uncanonical in all ways, since the territory between Prut and Nistru, Galitzia and the Black Sea had always been the canonical territory of the metropolitans of Moldova, residing first in Suceava, afterwards in Iasi, sees that have never been part of either the Kiev or the Moscow Churches.
So, what do you think of the way the Russians treated the Georgian church, which is more important than the church of Moldova?

« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 02:34:36 AM by augustin717 »

Offline synLeszka

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2009, 02:52:05 AM »
It's true that the Polish Kingdom's Orthodox Church was under the rule of Moldovan bishops but I think that for the Galicia the situation changed with the restoration of the Halicz archeparchy in 1371 by the patriarch of Constantinople under threats of king Kazimierz the Great of Poland( that if we did not do this he would forcibly convert the Galicjans to Roman Catholicism).

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2009, 06:17:54 AM »
"The Russians Are Coming" to rescue the Holy Land?
Oh I see what these "Missions" are really about now. Thanks.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2009, 06:40:21 AM »
"The Russians Are Coming" to rescue the Holy Land?
Oh I see what these "Missions" are really about now. Thanks.

Nope.  The Russian Ecclesiastical Mission has an historical mission to care for a small number of churches from tsarist days and monasteries in the Holy Land.  It does not run parishes.

The new post-Perestroika Russian Orthodox Christian immigrants of Jewish blood, between 150,000 and up to 300,000, are NOT the responsibility of the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission.  They are integrated into the Patriatrchate of Jerusalem which has created  a special department for them.  Their parish churches belong to the Patriarchate and not to the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission.

Given the number of Russian immigrants, now the Orthodox majority in the Holy Land, they will have an increasing role in the life of the Patriarchate.



« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 06:44:59 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2009, 07:03:43 AM »
"The Russians Are Coming" to rescue the Holy Land?
Oh I see what these "Missions" are really about now. Thanks.

Nope.  The Russian Ecclesiastical Mission has an historical mission to care for a small number of churches from tsarist days and monasteries in the Holy Land.  It does not run parishes.

The new post-Perestroika Russian Orthodox Christian immigrants of Jewish blood, between 150,000 and up to 300,000, are NOT the responsibility of the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission.  They are integrated into the Patriatrchate of Jerusalem which has created  a special department for them.  Their parish churches belong to the Patriarchate and not to the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission.

Given the number of Russian immigrants, now the Orthodox majority in the Holy Land, they will have an increasing role in the life of the Patriarchate.
But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 07:04:54 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2009, 07:24:56 AM »
But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?

The right of return is exercised by virtue of Jewish ethnicity.  Russian Orthodox Christians of Jewish ancestry do not enter a religion on the immigration application.

"It has been estimated that in the past twenty years about 300,000 avowed non-Jews and even practicing Christians have entered Israel from the former Soviet Union on the basis of being a grandchild of a Jew or by being married to a Jew."

Source  ::  Law of Return
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 07:26:13 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2009, 07:28:57 AM »
But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?

The right of return is exercised by virtue of Jewish ethnicity.  Russian Orthodox Christians do not enter a religon on the immigration aplication.

"It has been estimated that in the past twenty years about 300,000 avowed non-Jews and even practicing Christians have entered Israel from the former Soviet Union on the basis of being a grandchild of a Jew or by being married to a Jew."

Source  ::  Law of Return
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Thats a bit of selective reading isn't it Irish Hermit? From the same page you quote:

Quote
Eligibility requirements
Those who immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return are immediately entitled to citizenship. However, differences of opinion have arisen as to whether a person who claims citizenship under the Law of Return should be automatically registered as "Jewish" for census purposes. According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism. Orthodox Jews do not recognize conversions performed by Reform or Conservative Judaism. However, the Law provides that any Jew regardless of affiliation may migrate to Israel and claim citizenship.

Originally, the Law of Return was restricted to Jews only. A 1970 amendment, however, stated that, "The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law... are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
Anyway, perhaps the Russian Jews are more likely to convert to Orthodox Christianity once they get to Israel as they must have such a huge respect for us since the pogroms in Russia.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 07:31:21 AM by ozgeorge »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2009, 07:50:25 AM »
But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?

The right of return is exercised by virtue of Jewish ethnicity.  Russian Orthodox Christians do not enter a religon on the immigration aplication.

"It has been estimated that in the past twenty years about 300,000 avowed non-Jews and even practicing Christians have entered Israel from the former Soviet Union on the basis of being a grandchild of a Jew or by being married to a Jew."

Source  ::  Law of Return
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Thats a bit of selective reading isn't it Irish Hermit? From the same page you quote:

Quote
Eligibility requirements
Those who immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return are immediately entitled to citizenship. However, differences of opinion have arisen as to whether a person who claims citizenship under the Law of Return should be automatically registered as "Jewish" for census purposes. According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism. Orthodox Jews do not recognize conversions performed by Reform or Conservative Judaism. However, the Law provides that any Jew regardless of affiliation may migrate to Israel and claim citizenship.

Originally, the Law of Return was restricted to Jews only. A 1970 amendment, however, stated that, "The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law... are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
Anyway, perhaps the Russian Jews are more likely to convert to Orthodox Christianity once they get to Israel as they must have such a huge respect for us since the pogroms in Russia.

If you read what you quoted, you will see the question concerns not immigration but the Israeli census surveys, two quite different things.  I don't intend tro argue this with you.  As an immigration agent since 1995 for both Jews and Russians (immigrating here from both Israel and from Russia)  I feel I am sufficiently versed to offer accurate information.  But I realise that your renowned predilection for debate will not want to let this rest for at least another 10 messages.   :laugh:

Quote
Anyway, perhaps the Russian Jews are more likely to convert to Orthodox Christianity once they get to Israel as they must have such a huge respect for us since the pogroms in Russia.

If you read the history of the Jerusalem Patriarchate written by Saint Raphael of Brooklyn, you will lean of the atrocities perpetrated again and again by the Greek Patriarchs against the indigenous Christians of Jerusalem, imprisonment, banishment, extermination, affliction, persecution..
http://www.frmichel.najim.net/brotherenglish.pdf
 
 

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2009, 09:39:28 AM »
Did you know that President Theodore Roosovelt told St. Tsar Nicholas to stop the pogroms?:
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2009, 09:49:36 AM »
Did you know that President Theodore Roosovelt told St. Tsar Nicholas to stop the pogroms?:

I'm curious why you think Fr. Ambrose, a subject of Her Majesty, would care what an America president had to say.

Btw, as the US Senate pointed out at the time, Czar Nicholas wasn't the only Orthodox Russia dealing with Jews:
Came across this in the Congressional record (there's also an interesting summary on religious regulation in Russia)

Quote
The rule in Russia has always been toleration, though limited by an arrangement which seems to a stranger very peculiar....This regulation seems rather the result, on the whole, of organized indifference than of zeal, its main purpose being undoubtedly to keep down any troublesome religious fervor.  The great body of the Russian peasantry, when left to themselves, seem to be remarkably free from any spirit of fanatical hostility toward religious systems differeing from their own...While some priests have undoubtedly done much to create a more zealous feeling, it was especially noted during the fierce persecution of the Jews early in the present reign [Nicholas II] that in several cases the orthodox village priests not only gave shelter to Israelites seeking to escape harm, but exerted themselves to put an end to the persecutions.  So, too, during the past few days the papers have contained a statement that a priest very widely known and highly esteemed, to whom miraculous powers are quite generally attributed-[St.] Father John, of Cronstadt [sic]-has sent some of the charity money, of which he is almoner, to certain Jewish orphanages under the control of Israelites.
http://books.google.ro/books?id=rHoe7PlyK_YC&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=John+Cronstadt+Orthodox+Isrealites&source=bl&ots=75uM_s3jxo&sig=wvf3KdN0UJ6ltdHwdyrwO9gWww4&hl=ro&ei=ynb5SviCN8yknQeAkY38DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 09:50:08 AM by ialmisry »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2009, 10:12:52 AM »
And what makes him think the decrees of a Saint Bishop who told his flock to Commune with the Anglicans when no Orthodox Priest was available should mean anything to me? An error, I might add, which he only corrected because of pressure from "the Greeks". Whereas "the Russians" who consecrated him saw no problem.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 10:17:22 AM by ozgeorge »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2009, 12:21:11 PM »
And what makes him think the decrees of a Saint Bishop who told his flock to Commune with the Anglicans when no Orthodox Priest was available should mean anything to me? An error, I might add, which he only corrected because of pressure from "the Greeks". Whereas "the Russians" who consecrated him saw no problem.

http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/meletios_lang.jpg

I thought you were in communion with the rest of the Church who venerate St. Tikhon.  Sorry for the mistake.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 12:22:37 PM by ialmisry »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2009, 01:18:54 PM »
I thought you were in communion with the rest of the Church who venerate St. Tikhon.  Sorry for the mistake.
I was waiting for the righteous outrage.
Are Saints infallible are they? Or is it only Russian ones and those consecrated by them?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 01:19:42 PM by ozgeorge »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2009, 02:00:20 PM »
All the Greeks in Palestine are from Greece or Cyprus.  The schools that the Patriarchate runs are run for Greeks from Greece: the local Arabs only gained access when, during the Intifadah, the Greeks stopped coming (they teach the Arabs Greek from textbooks from the Greek Ministry of Education, so they "can go to school.").  It is the Phanariots-all 500 or so of them in Palestine (there being no local Greek population)-who identify the Church with ethnicity.  And that's the Greek flag they are waving.

Yes, they're nearly all from Greece or Cyprus, they often exclude non-Greeks from their ranks, and the way they adorn Orthodox churches in the Holy Land with the flag of the republic of Greece is absolutely disgusting. However, the Church of Jerusalem is the Church of Jerusalem. The "Greek Church" has not come to the Holy Land and replaced the "Palestinian Church." The problem are the ethnic Greeks who think it is acceptable to exclude non-Greeks from the leadership of the Church, but the Church of Jerusalem will remain Church of Jerusalem whether its leaders are Greek, Arab or Kenyan.

By speaking of "Greek Church" taking over the Holy Land, you're making the exact same mistake as these so-called 'Phanariots.'
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 02:07:44 PM by Orthodox11 »

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2009, 02:13:09 PM »
But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?

ozgeorge, if you actually visited Israel, you'd find that the vast majority of Israelis have no interest in Judaism besides an often-casual ancestral link. Most young Israelis I've met find solace in Eastern religions like Buddhism and Hinduism (India being the most popular travel destination after military service). The bookstores are full of World Religions literature.

The Russians who immigrated to Israel in the early 1990s are quite open that it was an economic decision, not one based on feelings of Zionist brotherhood. (Indeed, I've met numerous Russian Israelis who just don't want to mingle with the rest of the nation.) Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2009, 02:22:13 PM »
Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2009, 02:27:03 PM »
All the Greeks in Palestine are from Greece or Cyprus.  The schools that the Patriarchate runs are run for Greeks from Greece: the local Arabs only gained access when, during the Intifadah, the Greeks stopped coming (they teach the Arabs Greek from textbooks from the Greek Ministry of Education, so they "can go to school.").  It is the Phanariots-all 500 or so of them in Palestine (there being no local Greek population)-who identify the Church with ethnicity.  And that's the Greek flag they are waving.

Yes, they're nearly all from Greece or Cyprus, they often exclude non-Greeks from their ranks, and the way they adorn Orthodox churches in the Holy Land with the flag of the republic of Greece is absolutely disgusting. However, the Church of Jerusalem is the Church of Jerusalem. The "Greek Church" has not come to the Holy Land and replaced the "Palestinian Church."

For all intents and purposes, it has.

Quote
The problem are the ethnic Greeks who think it is acceptable to exclude non-Greeks from the leadership of the Church, but the Church of Jerusalem will remain Church of Jerusalem whether its leaders are Greek, Arab or Kenyan.

By speaking of "Greek Church" taking over the Holy Land, you're making the exact same mistake as these so-called 'Phanariots.'

No, I know Omogeneia when I see it.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2009, 02:28:56 PM »
Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:


Hmmm.  George, how old's the picture?  How many who would have seen it in person are still living (Most immigrants are living).  You seem rather upset that the Jews aren't holding grudges.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2009, 02:34:35 PM »
Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:


Hmmm.  George, how old's the picture?  How many who would have seen it in person are still living (Most immigrants are living).  You seem rather upset that the Jews aren't holding grudges.
Yeah, they're so over it. That must be why Fiddler on the Roof is still so popular.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2009, 02:36:30 PM »
Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:


Hmmm.  George, how old's the picture?  How many who would have seen it in person are still living (Most immigrants are living).  You seem rather upset that the Jews aren't holding grudges.
Yeah, they're so over it. That must be why Fiddler on the Roof is still so popular.
...and the Russian Orthodox Church in Palestine is becoming more popular.

I've know a number of Russian Jews here in the US that were so Russian that I didn't know for years that they were ethnically Jewish.  In the US the Russian Enclaves are almost with few exceptions Jewish enclaves.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 02:37:43 PM by ialmisry »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2009, 02:42:41 PM »
Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:


Hmmm.  George, how old's the picture?  How many who would have seen it in person are still living (Most immigrants are living).  You seem rather upset that the Jews aren't holding grudges.
Yeah, they're so over it. That must be why Fiddler on the Roof is still so popular.
...and the Russian Orthodox Church in Palestine is becoming more popular.
Must be the Missions to Jerusalem. Although I wonder where your statistics about the popularity of the Russian Orthodox Church in Palestine has come from when this thread started with a news article about a death threat written in Hebrew on a Russian Cathedral in Jerusalem. Perhaps you just have a different idea of what "popular" means:



I've know a number of Russian Jews here in the US that were so Russian that I didn't know for years that they were ethnically Jewish.
Really? You mean racial profiling doesn't work?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 02:46:53 PM by ozgeorge »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #87 on: December 30, 2009, 02:42:59 PM »
Yeah, they're so over it. That must be why Fiddler on the Roof is still so popular.

How many of the Russian Jews who emigrated to Israel in the early 1990s ever heard Fiddler on the Roof? You have to understand that 1) few Russians learnt much about the pogroms during the Soviet era, and 2) the Russians going to Israel were overwhelmingly thinking "Hoorah, we'll be in a country with jobs", not "Judaism is great and the Russian Orthodox Church is bad."

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #88 on: December 30, 2009, 02:45:42 PM »
But the Israeli Law of Return requires those of Jewish ancestry who immigrate to Israel to be of the Jewish Faith. So how is the immigration of practicing Jews from Russia going to help the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem? Does being a Russian Jew somehow make you an Orthodox Christian?

ozgeorge, if you actually visited Israel, you'd find that the vast majority of Israelis have no interest in Judaism besides an often-casual ancestral link. Most young Israelis I've met find solace in Eastern religions like Buddhism and Hinduism (India being the most popular travel destination after military service). The bookstores are full of World Religions literature.

The Russians who immigrated to Israel in the early 1990s are quite open that it was an economic decision, not one based on feelings of Zionist brotherhood. (Indeed, I've met numerous Russian Israelis who just don't want to mingle with the rest of the nation.) Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

I hired a Jewish lady from Russia to teach me Russian a few years back.  I had this Slavonic Bible, and showed it to her.  She knew exactly what it was and also taught me a bit of Slavonic.  She told me that her family used to attend Liturgy on feast days, particularly Pascha, when they were in Russia.  I thought that was rather unusual.  She said that it was not, and that many Jews attended Russian Orthodox Churches in Russia.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #89 on: December 30, 2009, 02:46:58 PM »
Consequently, when they are feeling a need for religious expression, the Orthodox Church they grew up around has a strong pull.

Yeah, I can see why:


Hmmm.  George, how old's the picture?  How many who would have seen it in person are still living (Most immigrants are living).  You seem rather upset that the Jews aren't holding grudges.
Yeah, they're so over it. That must be why Fiddler on the Roof is still so popular.
...and the Russian Orthodox Church in Palestine is becoming more popular.
Must be the Missions to Jerusalem. Although I wonder where your statistics about the popularity has come from when this thread started with a news article about a death threat written in Hebrew on a Russian Cathedral in Jerusalem. Perhaps you just have a different idea of what "popular" means:



I've know a number of Russian Jews here in the US that were so Russian that I didn't know for years that they were ethnically Jewish.
Really? You mean racial profiling doesn't work?

I don't know: you were able to identify that the Jew (itself profiling) who wrote on the Cathedral was a Russian Jew, and not a Mizrahi, who form the majority of the Hebrew population and have their own issues with Russian Jews coming.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #90 on: December 30, 2009, 02:49:34 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 02:49:46 PM by ozgeorge »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #91 on: December 30, 2009, 03:08:28 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #92 on: December 30, 2009, 03:18:29 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! :D
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #93 on: December 30, 2009, 03:31:15 PM »
ozgeorge,

I'm not sure what the big problem is with Russians in the Holy Land. As someone said, if the Patriarch of Jerusalem doesn't have a problem with them, then why do you? They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Are you saying that the Russians in the Holy Land should go elsewhere? I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish or what you are arguing. First your talking about Jerusalem and then pogroms and popularity so I really don't know what you want to done in this thread. I don't really see anything in this thread other than trying to get across that Russians are bad or something.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 03:32:04 PM by Andrew21091 »

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #94 on: December 30, 2009, 03:38:00 PM »
They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
I think I'd like to see something from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to support this claim other than a post on a discussion forum with nothing to back it up.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #95 on: December 30, 2009, 03:43:09 PM »
Ozgeorge, I don't pretend to understand everything in this thread, but Russian Jews, they are everywhere  in this part of the world. You'd be surprised to know that, when discussing religion, most of them lapse very naturally into Russian Orthodox lingo-indeed far more naturally than Jewish terminology. I've never met a one amongst the multitudes of recent immigrants who has expressed any animosity towards the Orthodox Church per se.

ETA: I lied. I did meet one Russian Jewish woman who complained to me that the ROC was "monoethnic" and therefore, hard for her to penetrate as a (poor) Russian Jew. However, she was wearing on her finger a Russian Orthodox "spasi i sokhrani" ring and, although she had left the ROC informally, she was, nevertheless, attending another Christian denomination and was not a practising Jew.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 03:48:51 PM by Rosehip »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #96 on: December 30, 2009, 03:50:27 PM »
They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
I think I'd like to see something from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to support this claim other than a post on a discussion forum with nothing to back it up.

If you want to see something official from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, go to Israel and see the antimensia which lie on the altars of the Russian churches in the Holy Land.

You will see that every one is signed by the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

I suppose there are three possibilities:

1.  The Russians have been paying him enormous amounts of money to bribe him to supply the antimensia

2.  The Russians have threatened the life of the Patriarch if he doesn't sign them

3.  The Patriarch issues the antimensia to the Russians at his own goodwill and pleasure.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 03:51:12 PM by Irish Hermit »

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #97 on: December 30, 2009, 03:59:59 PM »
2.  The Russians have threatened the life of the Patriarch if he doesn't sign them

IMO that's the most propable one.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #98 on: December 30, 2009, 04:08:04 PM »
They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
I think I'd like to see something from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to support this claim other than a post on a discussion forum with nothing to back it up.

What would make you think that it is not the case? Do you have anything from the Patriarchate saying otherwise? I want to see something that proves your case that the Patriarch does not want the Russians there. Have you read something that would suggest the Patriarch has a problem with the Russians?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 04:11:46 PM by Andrew21091 »

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #99 on: December 30, 2009, 04:42:13 PM »
They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
I think I'd like to see something from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to support this claim other than a post on a discussion forum with nothing to back it up.

Why is the onus on others to demonstrate that what has been the status quo for over 150 years (as demonstrated by the websites you yourself cited) is a problem for anyone besides yourself?
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2009, 04:48:17 PM »




The two bishops in the photos in case you do not know is the Patriarch of Jerusalem and Bishop Peter of Cleavland (ROCOR) who happen to be friends which was taken during the ROCOR pilgimage in 2007. If the Patriarch had a problem with these Russians, why meet with them in a loving manner and give them their blessing? ROCOR bishops have also concelebrated with Jurusalem bishops (I can get a photo of that also if you wish).

I really don't see what your problem with the Russians are.

Offline ThePilgrim

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #101 on: December 30, 2009, 05:04:14 PM »
ozgeorge,

I can't help feeling that your goal is just to cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble, and it seems rather inconceivable.

This whole thread was started by you to promote the idea that the Russians are doing something shady in the Holy Land.  To date, you've been unable to provide any evidence of that, and yet you continue to make snide and uncharitable remarks, and seem disappointed when you find out that people aren't bitter and aren't holding historical grudges.  Why?

The fact of the matter is, unless you have evidence that something shady *is* going on, it is uncharitable and slanderous of you to imply that it is.  A person is not guilty until proven innocent; they are innocent until proven guilty.

It would be ridiculous of me to say that you beat little children and torture kittens and then insist that until you can somehow provide evidence that you've never done that, we should all assume that you  have.

So likewise, when all the evidence seems to point to nothing bad going on, can you give it a rest and stop bringing up really old historical pictures of pogroms, ignoring the many positive examples of Russian/Jewish interaction, and making bitter and sarcastic remarks?

Grace and peace,
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #102 on: December 30, 2009, 06:15:57 PM »
ozgeorge,

I'm not sure what the big problem is with Russians in the Holy Land. As someone said, if the Patriarch of Jerusalem doesn't have a problem with them, then why do you? They are there, as previously mentioned, with the pleasure and blessing of the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Are you saying that the Russians in the Holy Land should go elsewhere? I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish or what you are arguing. First your talking about Jerusalem and then pogroms and popularity so I really don't know what you want to done in this thread. I don't really see anything in this thread other than trying to get across that Russians are bad or something.

I agree with you. There seems to be something that is really bugging Ozgeorge and that thing, whatever it is, is different than the issue at hand. I hope and pray that this thing will resolve itself and that Ozgeorge will get better.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2009, 07:19:00 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! :D

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2009, 07:26:04 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! :D

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2009, 07:33:52 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! :D

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #106 on: December 30, 2009, 07:39:03 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! :D

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
Why the histrionics? Who is taking delight in what has happened to the Russian Cathedral? I am merely questioning isalmisry's earlier point on this thread that the Russian Orthodox are "popular" in Israel and Palestine. Clearly, they are not.
Just chillax.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #107 on: December 30, 2009, 07:54:07 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! :D

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
Why the histrionics? Who is taking delight in what has happened to the Russian Cathedral? I am merely questioning isalmisry's earlier point on this thread that the Russian Orthodox are "popular" in Israel and Palestine. Clearly, they are not.
Just chillax.

And I had believed that something serious was going on that had caused you to behave so--kind of reflected pain. Oh well, clearly you are unrepentant and intend to continue to be ugly and mean. So, prayers are still in order: Lord have mercy on Thy servant George.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #108 on: December 30, 2009, 08:03:23 PM »
I too hope you're feeling better, George. I know from sad personal experience that when I am deeply troubled about some personal issue I tend to lash out at others. It requires constant humility and contrition to surrender to the harshness of reality sometimes.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #109 on: December 30, 2009, 08:04:37 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! :D

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
Why the histrionics? Who is taking delight in what has happened to the Russian Cathedral? I am merely questioning isalmisry's earlier point on this thread that the Russian Orthodox are "popular" in Israel and Palestine. Clearly, they are not.
Just chillax.

And I had believed that something serious was going on that had caused you to behave so--kind of reflected pain. Oh well, clearly you are unrepentant and intend to continue to be ugly and mean. So, prayers are still in order: Lord have mercy on Thy servant George.
Thanks for your prayers for my ugly meanness. You're such a good friend.

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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #110 on: December 30, 2009, 08:22:38 PM »
When I read some of the threads on this forum, I wonder why I didn't become a Buddhist!  :laugh:
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #111 on: December 30, 2009, 08:22:55 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! :D

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
Why the histrionics? Who is taking delight in what has happened to the Russian Cathedral? I am merely questioning isalmisry's earlier point on this thread that the Russian Orthodox are "popular" in Israel and Palestine. Clearly, they are not.
Just chillax.

Well, it is the Greek clergy who are always moaning that they are being spat on in Israel.  How popular is that!?

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #112 on: December 30, 2009, 08:26:54 PM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! :D

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.

George, what the heck is the matter with you?  Do you remember a few years back when one of the Ec. Patriarchate's churches was set on fire in Istanbul and the sexton was murdered and thrown down the church well?   None of us delighted in that.  None of us said:  See how welcome the Greeks are in Istanbul.

I guess you are still feeling the effects of the swine flu and you are feeling testy.  Much sympathy and prayers for your recovery.
Why the histrionics? Who is taking delight in what has happened to the Russian Cathedral? I am merely questioning isalmisry's earlier point on this thread that the Russian Orthodox are "popular" in Israel and Palestine. Clearly, they are not.
Just chillax.

Well, it is the Greek clergy who are always moaning that they are being spat on in Israel.  How popular is that!?
Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?
I know you think the Russian will eventually take over the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and ialmisry believes this also because he thinks Russian Orthodoxy is popular among the Israelis, but the reality is that neither the Greeks nor the Russians are popular.
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem. Isn't the upcoming Russian takeover of Constantinople which you often go on about enough for you ?
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #113 on: December 30, 2009, 08:35:28 PM »
Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?

It is the way you structured this thread in your opening post which has taken us down this road.

Quote
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

What a strange view of it!  THESE ARE  JEWS who have come from the old Soviet Union to the Holy Land.    It will be the JEWS reclaiming the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.   It will be a JEW who will sit on the cathedra and rule the Church of Jerusalem.  May it happen tomorrow!   May the Holy City cease to be ruled by foreign imported clergy and may it become Jewish again!  May the sound of Hebrew psalms reverberate in our churches.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 08:37:03 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #114 on: December 30, 2009, 08:40:52 PM »
Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?

It is the way you structured this thread in your opening post which has taken us down this road.
if you say so.

Quote
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

What a strange view of it!  THESE ARE  JEWS who have come from the old Soviet Union to the Holy Land.    It will be the JEWS reclaiming the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.   It will be a JEW who will sit on the cathedra and rule the Church of Jerusalem.  May it happen tomorrow!   May the Holy City cease to be ruled by foreign imported clergy and may it become Jewish again!  May the sound of Hebrew psalms reverberate in our churches.
Russian Jews isn't it? You said so yourself. Non-Russian Jews won't cut it for you. But personally, I'd rather see Christians on the throne of Jerusalem.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 08:41:15 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #115 on: December 30, 2009, 08:49:53 PM »
Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?

It is the way you structured this thread in your opening post which has taken us down this road.
if you say so.

Quote
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

What a strange view of it!  THESE ARE  JEWS who have come from the old Soviet Union to the Holy Land.    It will be the JEWS reclaiming the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.   It will be a JEW who will sit on the cathedra and rule the Church of Jerusalem.  May it happen tomorrow!   May the Holy City cease to be ruled by foreign imported clergy and may it become Jewish again!  May the sound of Hebrew psalms reverberate in our churches.
Russian Jews isn't it? You said so yourself. Non-Russian Jews won't cut it for you. But personally, I'd rather see Christians on the throne of Jerusalem.

What have you got against Russian Jews? 

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?

Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2009, 08:59:46 PM »
But personally, I'd rather see Christians on the throne of Jerusalem.

Well, obviously a religious Jew won't be on the throne but a Christian just like St. James the Just, St. Simeon, and the other ethnicly Jewish patriarchs who ruled the throne in the beginning of the Church. What do you think? How about a Palestinian? Would you have a problem with that? Does it have to be a Greek? Does the Greek flag need to fly in Palestine?

Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #117 on: December 30, 2009, 09:02:41 PM »
You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?

Well, I also think that Palestinians also should be able to sit on the throne since it is also their home, not to mention that they make up the majority of Orthodox under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 09:06:48 PM by Andrew21091 »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #118 on: December 30, 2009, 09:21:10 PM »
You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?

Well, I also think that Palestinians also should be able to sit on the throne since it is also their home, not to mention that they make up the majority of Orthodox under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are the Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate -- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2009, 09:31:11 PM »
Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?

It is the way you structured this thread in your opening post which has taken us down this road.
if you say so.

Quote
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

What a strange view of it!  THESE ARE  JEWS who have come from the old Soviet Union to the Holy Land.    It will be the JEWS reclaiming the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.   It will be a JEW who will sit on the cathedra and rule the Church of Jerusalem.  May it happen tomorrow!   May the Holy City cease to be ruled by foreign imported clergy and may it become Jewish again!  May the sound of Hebrew psalms reverberate in our churches.
Russian Jews isn't it? You said so yourself. Non-Russian Jews won't cut it for you. But personally, I'd rather see Christians on the throne of Jerusalem.

What have you got against Russian Jews?  
Nothing. I just think a Christian should be on the Throne of Jerusalem.

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?
So the Palestinians have no right to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem? Why not?

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?  
What makes you think that? I would be quite happy for any Roman to sit on the throne of Constantinople. This would include all the Balkans (the Romoi), the Arabs (the Rum), and anyone else who is a descendant of those St. Constantine the Great granted the title "Roman" to.

Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?
Jerusalem should be ruled by Jews, the Throne of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem should be ruled by a Christian.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 09:31:54 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #120 on: December 30, 2009, 09:32:15 PM »
You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?

Well, I also think that Palestinians also should be able to sit on the throne since it is also their home, not to mention that they make up the majority of Orthodox under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are the Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate -- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


Forgive me if I'm not understanding the issues, but why should race and numbers play any part in the matter instead of the right person for the job; seeing as this situation is a mix of Jews and Palestinians in any case?
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #121 on: December 30, 2009, 09:41:08 PM »
You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?  
What makes you think that? I would be quite happy for any Roman to sit on the throne of Constantinople. This would include all the Balkans (the Romoi), the Arabs (the Rum), and anyone else who is a descendant of those St. Constantine the Great granted the title "Roman" to.

This is the stupidest theory I have ever heard. What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ? Most of us from the area have history burned into our genes: we have not appreciated nor will we ever abide Hellenization in any of its forms. Let me say it more plainly: I like Greek people and food and dances; I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #122 on: December 30, 2009, 09:47:29 PM »
[Nothing. I just think a Christian should be on the Throne of Jerusalem.
So you don't believe that the Russian Christian Jews in Israel are Christians?

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?
Quote
So the Palestinians have no right to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem? Why not?

The reason there has been no Palestinian elected as Patriarch is because of a repressive Greek policy of making sure that any Arab vocations are channelled into the village priesthood, that no Arabs bceome monks and no Arabs make it into the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.   The Patriarchate and the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre are virtually one and the same.

But there are been a dramatic shift in Orthodox demographics in the Holy Land.  The Russian Christian Jews now outnumber the Arab Orthodox.   They will not want to be shunted off into the village priesthood, they will not acept being excluded from the monastic life. They will not accept exclusion by the Greeks from the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.  In short there are much better odds of getting a Jewish Patriarch elected than an Arab.   One may hope that the example of the Christian Jews will bring fresh strength to the rather passive Arab Orthodox who have accepted the hegemony of the foreign Greeks for centuries.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2009, 09:48:41 PM »
Forgive me if I'm not understanding the issues, but why should race and numbers play any part in the matter instead of the right person for the job; seeing as this situation is a mix of Jews and Palestinians in any case?

I've made an attempt to answer this in the post above.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2009, 09:54:07 PM »
[Nothing. I just think a Christian should be on the Throne of Jerusalem.
So you don't believe that the Russian Christian Jews in Israel are Christians?
I just don't think Russian Christin Jews exist, unless they belong to one of the Messianic Jew sects.
All Orthodox Christians are Jews- they are the True Israel.

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?
Quote
So the Palestinians have no right to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem? Why not?
The reason there has been no Palestinian elected as Patriarch is because of a repressive Greek policy of making sure that any Arab vocations are channelled into the village priesthood, that no Arabs bceome monks and no Arabs make it into the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.   The Patriarchate and the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre are virtually one and the same.
Really? I must tell that to the Archbishop of Sebastia who is a Palestinian born in Gaza.

But there are been a dramatic shift in Orthodox demographics in the Holy Land.  The Russian Christian Jews now outnumber the Arab Orthodox.  
Hooray for Russian expansion into the Holy Land!


They will not want to be shunted off into the village priesthood, they will not acept being excluded from the monastic life. They will not accept exclusion by the Greeks from the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.  In short there are much better odds of getting a Jewish Patriarch elected than an Arab.   One may hope that the example of the Christian Jews will bring fresh strength to the rather passive Arab Orthodox who have accepted the hegemony of the foreign Greeks for centuries.
I realize how important race is for you. I hope your dream of the race you want to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem and Constantinople come true for you. I disagree though, because I'm a Christian in the Orthodox Church where there is neither Jew nor Greek...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 09:56:26 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #125 on: December 30, 2009, 10:02:50 PM »

I just don't think Russian Christin Jews exist, unless they belong to one of the Messianic Jew sects.

So what term would you prefer for the Russian-speaking Jews who are Orthodox Christians and are Jews living in Israel.

Quote
All Orthodox Christians are Jews- they are the True Israel.

You're confusing replacement theology with nationality and geopraphy.   :laugh:

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?
Quote
So the Palestinians have no right to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem? Why not?
The reason there has been no Palestinian elected as Patriarch is because of a repressive Greek policy of making sure that any Arab vocations are channelled into the village priesthood, that no Arabs bceome monks and no Arabs make it into the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre.   The Patriarchate and the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre are virtually one and the same.
Quote
Really? I must tell that to the Archbishop of Sebastia who is a Palestinian born in Gaza.

And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #126 on: December 30, 2009, 10:07:07 PM »
And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
I think you need to back up your defamatory claims about a Bishop of the Orthodox Church.
On second thoughts, don't bother. Anyone who thinks race should determine who should be a Bishop of the Church is hardly the kind of person I wan't to engage in discussion with.
Have a happy new year. I hope your race-based dreams come true for you.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2009, 11:45:33 PM »
I realize how important race is for you. I hope your dream of the race you want to sit on the Throne of Jerusalem and Constantinople come true for you. I disagree though, because I'm a Christian in the Orthodox Church where there is neither Jew nor Greek...

I'm an Irishman.

But there must be *some* difference between Greeks and Jews since we are told that Peter was sent to preach to the Jews and Paul to the Greeks.   ;)

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #128 on: December 30, 2009, 11:49:04 PM »
And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
I think you need to back up your defamatory claims about a Bishop of the Orthodox Church.

Pshaw!  It was all over the Internet when Archimandrite Hanna expressed his approval of Palestinian suicide bombers killing Israelis.  Don't tell me the horrifed reaction from the Orthodox world was not heard in Australia.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #129 on: December 30, 2009, 11:53:23 PM »
Anyone who thinks race should determine who should be a Bishop of the Church is hardly the kind of person I wan't to engage in discussion with.

Race seems to have been the determining factor in who becomes a bishop in the Jerusalem Church for centuries past, and prior to that also in the Syrian Church (now called Antiochian Church.)    Did not your Church even go out of communion with the Antiochians when they refused to be ruled any longer by racially chosen Greek only bishops?

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2009, 01:36:56 AM »
But look how popular the Russian Orthodox Church in Jerusalem is:


The random odd ball does not a trend make.  You ought to know that.
LOL! :D

Btw, the graffitti just says "Death to Christians" not "Death to Russians" nor "Death to the Orthodox."  For all we know, the writer can't tell the difference between a Pentacostal and the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Except that the Russian Cathedral is in the Russian Compound of Jerusalem. The target seems clear.
It has a Cross on it. It's all the same to the Jews.  The first thing I saw getting off the bus was swastikas all over the Episcopal church, and I was shown the bullet holes in the Greek chapel on the Mount of Olives.  Not clear at all, except anti-Christian.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #131 on: December 31, 2009, 01:42:37 AM »
Why are you tuning this into a Greeks vs. Russians thing?

It is the way you structured this thread in your opening post which has taken us down this road.
if you say so.

Quote
What I'm interested in though is your hopes for a Russian takeover of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

What a strange view of it!  THESE ARE  JEWS who have come from the old Soviet Union to the Holy Land.    It will be the JEWS reclaiming the throne of Saint James the Brother of the Lord.   It will be a JEW who will sit on the cathedra and rule the Church of Jerusalem.  May it happen tomorrow!   May the Holy City cease to be ruled by foreign imported clergy and may it become Jewish again!  May the sound of Hebrew psalms reverberate in our churches.
Russian Jews isn't it? You said so yourself. Non-Russian Jews won't cut it for you. But personally, I'd rather see Christians on the throne of Jerusalem.

What have you got against Russian Jews? 

Are there any other Christian Jews in the Holy City in sufficient numbers to reclaim the original Jewish Church of Jerusalem, to stop it being merely an artifical creation propped up and ruled by clergy imported from other lands?  Why do you think God has brought such numbers of Christian Jews to Israel from the old Soviet Union?

You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?
Because it is Palestinian.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #132 on: December 31, 2009, 01:46:12 AM »
You do not like the thought of the Church of Costantinople being ruled by non-Greeks?   Why should Jerusalem be ruled by non-Jews?

Well, I also think that Palestinians also should be able to sit on the throne since it is also their home, not to mention that they make up the majority of Orthodox under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

The majority of the Patriarchate is now Jews.  These are the Christian Jews who have come from the former Soviet Union.

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/print.php?act=news&id=5819

Summary of article:

"Russian-speaking Orthodox believers today outnumber Orthodox Arabs in the Jerusalem Patriarchate -- according to Metropolitan Timothy, the Jerusalem patriarchate's Secretary General. Some statistics indicate 300,000 Russian Orthodox while others state no more than 150,000. In either case, they outnumber the Arab Orthodox faithful."


Only in Palestine. The Patriarchate also includes Jordan (and now seems to be claiming jurisdicion in Qatar), which has about 300,000 Arab Orthodox.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2009, 02:17:43 AM »
And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
I think you need to back up your defamatory claims about a Bishop of the Orthodox Church.

Pshaw!  It was all over the Internet when Archimandrite Hanna expressed his approval of Palestinian suicide bombers killing Israelis.  Don't tell me the horrifed reaction from the Orthodox world was not heard in Australia.
I think you are spending too much time on the internet. That's the problem.
He was arrested and interrogated by the Israelis and no charges were laid because the claims were false. It was plain and simple persecution of a Palestinian by the Israelis to try and prevent him being consecrated Bishop. Now if you have evidence to the contrary, kindly present it or post a public apology to Archbishop Theodosios for your libelous claim.
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2009, 02:25:54 AM »
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I don't have to sweetie:
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/a/R/u/m/
In fact your own Patriarchate of Antioch calls itself "Rum Orthodox"
Apology accepted for your inane comment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 02:36:15 AM by ozgeorge »
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #135 on: December 31, 2009, 03:27:32 AM »
Quote
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I, for one, call myself "român".

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #136 on: December 31, 2009, 04:08:49 AM »
And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
I think you need to back up your defamatory claims about a Bishop of the Orthodox Church.

Pshaw!  It was all over the Internet when Archimandrite Hanna expressed his approval of Palestinian suicide bombers killing Israelis.  Don't tell me the horrifed reaction from the Orthodox world was not heard in Australia.
I think you are spending too much time on the internet. That's the problem.
He was arrested and interrogated by the Israelis and no charges were laid because the claims were false. It was plain and simple persecution of a Palestinian by the Israelis to try and prevent him being consecrated Bishop. Now if you have evidence to the contrary, kindly present it or post a public apology to Archbishop Theodosios for your libelous claim.

Many lectures and publications at the Zayed Centre praise suicide bombings. For example, on June 19, 2002, Father Atallah Hanna, the spokesman of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, spoke at the Zayed Centre, ( http://www.zccf.org.ae/e_TitleDescription.asp?Tid=43 ). According to the Zayed Centre's summary of the lecture, Father Hanna stated that "the conduct of the Zionist movement is characterized by its racist nature, and that it is completely in contradiction with the Muslim and Christian values… He also denounced the Judaization process carried out by the Israeli government for the city of Jerusalem. In this regard, he mentioned the measures taken by Israel to empty the city of Muslims and Christian and replace them [with] Jewish settlers. As an eye witness of [the] Jenin massacre, he said that it had been the most horrible tragedy ever perpetrated against humanity… Answering a question on the Orthodox Church’s stance as regards suicide bombings, he said that Palestinian martyrdom is part [of] the Intifada which has to remain kindled until a resolution is achieved for the Palestinian cause… Introducing the speaker, prior to the lecture, Mr. Mohammed Khalifa Al-Murar, Executive Director of ZCCF, said that Father Atallah has an honorable record in his struggle against the Israeli occupation." A report about Father Atallah Hanna's speech appeared in the Gulf News the following day. The report quotes Father Hanna as saying that "political parties in Palestine agree to the continuation of the Intifada, which includes different approaches of struggle. Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued Intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes… We are part of the Intifada, so you don't expect us to keep distance and watch. We are in the struggle, whether it's martyrdom or any other means, we are part of it."

Shortly after his appearance at the Zayed Centre, Father Hanna was dismissed from his position as spokesman for the Church. In response, Father Hanna said "The decision to fire [me] is illegal, illegitimate, and baseless… I will not comply with the decision and I will carry out my daily duties as spokesman for the community without considering [this] decision." In fact, Father Hanna has continued to present himself as spokesman of the Church, and continued to publicly support suicide bombings.

http://www.memritv.org/report/en/906.htm


-oOo-

Police Question Greek Orthodox Priest on Ties to Terror
Archimandrite Hana Atalla of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate was questioned by police on Thursday on suspicion of supporting terror and traveling illegally to Syria and Lebanon, THE JERUSALEM POST reported. Police spokesman Gil Kleiman said Atalla is suspected of having met with Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah during a recent visit to Syria and Lebanon, where he allegedly expressed support for terrorist organizations. He is also suspected of calling on Christians to participate in the Palestinian uprising.

"Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes," Atalla said in a speech in Dubai on June 20. A report in Itim said he also appeared recently on Hizbullah's television station.

The Patriarchate, in an official statement, denied that Atalla is a spokesperson for the church. Bishop Aristorchus, a spokesperson for the Patriarchate, said Atalla is a clerk in the Arabic department of the Patriarchate's secretariat. He added that the Patriarch does not agree Attla's statements. The Patriarch also said that Atalla was not given permission to travel to Syria and Lebanon.

http://www.nyjtimes.com/Heritage/News/August1902.htm



-oOo-

Arab Christian Suicide Bombers?

Jan. 15….(Islamic News) Orthodox Church spokesman Father Attallah Hanna caused great controversy last year with his comments in support of Palestinian suicide bombers, saying, "Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes." The sentiment that brought these extreme comments from one leader appears to have spread to other Christian religious leaders. Now, however, Father Hanna is going beyond verbal support for Palestinian suicide bombers and is even suggesting that Christians take an active role. Father Hanna met with a Palestinian delegation this week in which he praised the "martyrdom operations", calling on Palestinian Christians and Arabs to do everything in their power to resist the Israeli occupation. Hanna said the men who carry out acts of martyrdom were not "suicide bombers" or "terrorists" but heroes and encouraged Christians and Muslims to work together to liberate Palestine. Catholic Father Johanna Qaltah echoed Father Hanna's comments adding that martyrdom is a duty and an obligation for all Arab citizens, Muslims or Christians, in defense of their land and honor. Also adding his support to suicide bombers is Ikram Lamaei, Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Anglican Church in Egypt and professor of comparative religion. Lamaei would like to see Yasser Arafat's Fatah group train Christians to become martyrs in joint Islamic-Christian operations. Lamei believes this would send a message to the world that Palestinians and Arabs are united, regardless of religious differences. According to some reports, leaders of Christian sects in Egypt as well as leading Coptic political activists have endorsed the idea of joint Christian-Islamic martyr brigades and praised these leaders for their recent statements. Those Christian leaders calling for such action believe it is important to distinguish between Western and Eastern Christians. According to one leader, unless Eastern Christians embrace the Arab Islamic civilization, it will not have a future. Israel, however, has formally protested the remarks of Father Hanna to the Jerusalem Orthodox Church, accusing him of supporting terrorist operations and posing a threat to national security.


Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #137 on: December 31, 2009, 04:15:01 AM »
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I don't have to sweetie:
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/a/R/u/m/
In fact your own Patriarchate of Antioch calls itself "Rum Orthodox"

Which does not mean Rome Italy but Greek Constantinople.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #138 on: December 31, 2009, 05:34:04 AM »
Only in Palestine. The Patriarchate also includes Jordan (and now seems to be claiming jurisdicion in Qatar), which has about 300,000 Arab Orthodox.

http://www.qorthodox.org/english/qatar_church.htm

A brief history of the Jerusalem Patriarchate parish in Qatar.

They are on the New Calendar which is surprising for Jerusalem. 
http://www.qorthodox.org/english/home_page_4.htm

God bless them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 05:39:40 AM by Irish Hermit »

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #139 on: December 31, 2009, 06:39:21 AM »
Irish Hermit. Once again you are the voice of the enemies of the Orthodox Church. Here's the truth, and when you read it, why not crawl back into your gossip sewer.

  Crimes against Christianity
http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/crimes_against_christianity/42.htm

      Appeal on behalf of Dr. Attallah Hanna

On August 22, 2002, Israeli police arrested Archimandrite Dr. Theodosios Hanna,

Spokesman of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem and the Holy Land. At around

10 o'clock in the morning, he was detained by Israeli Border Police at his home in the old

city of Jerusalem after which he was transferred to the Israeli detention and interrogation

center at the Russian Compound ('Moscowbiya').

 

Early in the morning, Israeli police at Yaffa Gate, one of the entrances of the old city of

Jerusalem, called him and asked him to come to the Israeli police station to testify

concerning an events that happened before a few days. He told them that he would come

after attending a meeting. After he left his home in the old city of Jerusalem, a number of

Israeli policemen were standing outside his home. Also present there were a number of

Israeli journalists, who took pictures of his arrest. Israeli police took Archimandrite Dr.

Theodosios Hanna to the Russian Compound ('Moscowbiya') in an Israeli police car.

 

At the Russian Compound the Israeli police charged him with: (1) 'suspicion of relations

with terrorist organisations'; (2) 'illegally entering an enemy country', which means in Israeli

official lexicon Syria and Lebanon; and (3) 'incitement'. Israeli Attorney General Elyakim

Rubinstein ordered Archimandrite Hanna's arrest and interrogation. Archimandrite Dr.

Theodosios Hanna was interrogated for five hours, in which he was shown interviews he

gave to the media, in which he expressed his support for non-violent resistance against

the foreign military occupation. During his interrogation, some journalists were present

and he was filmed inside the Russian Compound.

 

Archimandrite Hanna said that he always visited Syria and Lebanon to attend religious

and inter-religious conferences and dialogues. He traveled to these countries on his

passport issued by the Vatican. Moreover, it should be emphasized that it is well-known

that churches work across borders. Israeli police confiscated Hanna's two passports, his

Israeli passport and his passport issued by the Vatican. This is the first time, Israeli police

arrested a religious leader or priest. The Israeli police interferes with divisions inside the

Church. It is apparent that Israel wants to impose a different kind of Christian priests, those

who are isolated from the rest of the Arab world, Arab Christians and Muslims.

Archimandrite Hana said: 'We are opposed to harm any human beings, because all

human beings are the creation of God. This is an Israeli campaign to prevent an Arab

priest to obtain a higher position within the Patriarchate', adding 'Israel is using these

punitive measures to put pressure on the Church, violating its independence and that of

other religious institutions'. Hanna also said that the Israeli government wants to pressure

the Church on certain specific issues, including opposition to resistance against

occupation, the lands owned by the Church in the Holy Land, in particular in Jerusalem.

 

Archimandrite Hanna was intimidated and pressured by the Israeli policy to refrain from

any political activitiy. He said: 'Israel claims that the Church should not interfere in politics,

but this is a false claim, because the Palestinian cause has both a moral, political and

religious dimension, and the Christians in the Holy Land are part of the Palestinian people

and are subject to the same oppression as their Muslim brothers and sisters, who both

are prevented from praying in Jerusalem'. Moreover, it is an established fact that Israeli

Rabbi's intervene heavily in politics in all possible forms, which is even encouraged by

Israel's state ideology.

 

We call on all local and international institutions, those religious, political, and human rights

organisations to intervene and to protect and defend Archimandrite Dr. Theodosios

(Atallah) Hanna.

 

The Arab Greek Orthodox Chuch councils, committees and institutions in Jerusalem, the

Holy Land and Jordan

 

Contact:


Archimandrite Theodosios (Atallah) Hanna: 050-668778;

Adi Bajale: 056-379312;

Attorney Ilias Khoury: 02-6283502 (office); Marwan Toubasi: 059-803097
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 06:44:42 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #140 on: December 31, 2009, 06:40:09 AM »
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I don't have to sweetie:
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/a/R/u/m/
In fact your own Patriarchate of Antioch calls itself "Rum Orthodox"

Which does not mean Rome Italy but Greek Constantinople.

Well duh. ::)
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #141 on: December 31, 2009, 06:41:12 AM »
Quote
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I, for one, call myself "român".

Oh no you don't. Second Chance, an American knows better than you. :D
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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #142 on: December 31, 2009, 06:51:40 AM »
And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.

While the first part of this statement might be true, the second is false and slanderous.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #143 on: December 31, 2009, 06:53:06 AM »
And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.

While the first part of this statement might be true, the second is false and slanderous.
Its pointless. The man spends his life on the Internet spreading malicious gossip and thinks he's righteously doing God's work.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #144 on: December 31, 2009, 07:04:06 AM »
Irish Hermit. Once again you are the voice of the enemies of the Orthodox Church. Here's the truth, and when you read it, why not crawl back into your gossip sewer.

Are you aware that you are quoting from a Palestinian site which supports the Intifada, terrorism, etc.?

While you're digging in the sewer, do you know why Archbishop Theodosios was suspended for 2 months in 2007 by the Patriarch and the Holy Synod?  And why does he travel on a Vatican passport?



Quote
  Crimes against Christianity
http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/crimes_against_christianity/42.htm

      Appeal on behalf of Dr. Attallah Hanna

On August 22, 2002, Israeli police arrested Archimandrite Dr. Theodosios Hanna,

Spokesman of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem and the Holy Land. At around

10 o'clock in the morning, he was detained by Israeli Border Police at his home in the old

city of Jerusalem after which he was transferred to the Israeli detention and interrogation

center at the Russian Compound ('Moscowbiya').

 

Early in the morning, Israeli police at Yaffa Gate, one of the entrances of the old city of

Jerusalem, called him and asked him to come to the Israeli police station to testify

concerning an events that happened before a few days. He told them that he would come

after attending a meeting. After he left his home in the old city of Jerusalem, a number of

Israeli policemen were standing outside his home. Also present there were a number of

Israeli journalists, who took pictures of his arrest. Israeli police took Archimandrite Dr.

Theodosios Hanna to the Russian Compound ('Moscowbiya') in an Israeli police car.

 

At the Russian Compound the Israeli police charged him with: (1) 'suspicion of relations

with terrorist organisations'; (2) 'illegally entering an enemy country', which means in Israeli

official lexicon Syria and Lebanon; and (3) 'incitement'. Israeli Attorney General Elyakim

Rubinstein ordered Archimandrite Hanna's arrest and interrogation. Archimandrite Dr.

Theodosios Hanna was interrogated for five hours, in which he was shown interviews he

gave to the media, in which he expressed his support for non-violent resistance against

the foreign military occupation. During his interrogation, some journalists were present

and he was filmed inside the Russian Compound.

 

Archimandrite Hanna said that he always visited Syria and Lebanon to attend religious

and inter-religious conferences and dialogues. He traveled to these countries on his

passport issued by the Vatican. Moreover, it should be emphasized that it is well-known

that churches work across borders. Israeli police confiscated Hanna's two passports, his

Israeli passport and his passport issued by the Vatican. This is the first time, Israeli police

arrested a religious leader or priest. The Israeli police interferes with divisions inside the

Church. It is apparent that Israel wants to impose a different kind of Christian priests, those

who are isolated from the rest of the Arab world, Arab Christians and Muslims.

Archimandrite Hana said: 'We are opposed to harm any human beings, because all

human beings are the creation of God. This is an Israeli campaign to prevent an Arab

priest to obtain a higher position within the Patriarchate', adding 'Israel is using these

punitive measures to put pressure on the Church, violating its independence and that of

other religious institutions'. Hanna also said that the Israeli government wants to pressure

the Church on certain specific issues, including opposition to resistance against

occupation, the lands owned by the Church in the Holy Land, in particular in Jerusalem.

 

Archimandrite Hanna was intimidated and pressured by the Israeli policy to refrain from

any political activitiy. He said: 'Israel claims that the Church should not interfere in politics,

but this is a false claim, because the Palestinian cause has both a moral, political and

religious dimension, and the Christians in the Holy Land are part of the Palestinian people

and are subject to the same oppression as their Muslim brothers and sisters, who both

are prevented from praying in Jerusalem'. Moreover, it is an established fact that Israeli

Rabbi's intervene heavily in politics in all possible forms, which is even encouraged by

Israel's state ideology.

 

We call on all local and international institutions, those religious, political, and human rights

organisations to intervene and to protect and defend Archimandrite Dr. Theodosios

(Atallah) Hanna.

 

The Arab Greek Orthodox Chuch councils, committees and institutions in Jerusalem, the

Holy Land and Jordan

 

Contact:


Archimandrite Theodosios (Atallah) Hanna: 050-668778;

Adi Bajale: 056-379312;

Attorney Ilias Khoury: 02-6283502 (office); Marwan Toubasi: 059-803097

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #145 on: December 31, 2009, 07:10:55 AM »
Whatever. Give my regards to the sewer rats.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #146 on: December 31, 2009, 07:13:14 AM »
And why does he travel on a Vatican passport?

An Israeli passport is not going to get you into Syria and Lebanon, which were the countries in question.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #147 on: December 31, 2009, 07:15:55 AM »
Whatever. Give my regards to the sewer rats.

How come you call Second Chance sweetie (#134) but I dwell with the sewer rats.  Can't I be a sweetie too, like Second Chance?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:17:02 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #148 on: December 31, 2009, 07:17:10 AM »
Whatever. Give my regards to the sewer rats.

How come you call Second Chance sweetie but I dwell with the sewer rats.  Can't I be a sweetie too, like Second Chance?
Second Chance doesn't know any better. You're just malicious.
And a hypocrite. And are committing libel against an Archbishop of the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:21:32 AM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #149 on: December 31, 2009, 07:24:53 AM »
And why does he travel on a Vatican passport?

An Israeli passport is not going to get you into Syria and Lebanon, which were the countries in question.

Rather unusual for the Vatican to issue a passport to a mere monk (at the time) of the Jerusalem Patriarchate which has officially expressed nothing but dislike and distrust of the Vatican.

The Patriarch:  "Beyond the religious propaganda and the proselytizing of the Roman Catholics, however, our Patriarchate faces also their cunning attempts to outflank the Orthodox presence in the Most Holy Places of Pilgrimage and to increase their influence over the Holy Land, through the political diplomacy of the Vatican and the intervention of Catholic European forces into the international political scene."




Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #150 on: December 31, 2009, 07:39:04 AM »
Rather unusual for the Vatican to issue a passport to a mere monk (at the time) of the Jerusalem Patriarchate which has officially expressed nothing but dislike and distrust of the Vatican.

He was the official spokesperson of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem. He was in Syria and Lebanon attending religious meetings. If these meetings included Catholics, as is usually the case, and they wished the Patriarchate to participate in these discussions, issuing him with a passport so as to enable him to travel makes perfect sense.

If you are suggesting they issued him with a passport because the Vatican too are strongly supportive of the Palestinian cause, so what? No one is denying that H.G. Theodosios is an outspoken critic of the Israeli occupation and oppression of the Arab peoples. But that is quite different from being a "horrible warmonger" as you have called him.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:40:18 AM by Orthodox11 »

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #151 on: December 31, 2009, 07:39:44 AM »
Whatever. Give my regards to the sewer rats.

How come you call Second Chance sweetie but I dwell with the sewer rats.  Can't I be a sweetie too, like Second Chance?
Second Chance doesn't know any better. You're just malicious.
And a hypocrite. And are committing libel against an Archbishop of the Orthodox Church.

Whatever. Give my regards to the sewer rats.

How come you call Second Chance sweetie but I dwell with the sewer rats.  Can't I be a sweetie too, like Second Chance?
Second Chance doesn't know any better. You're just malicious.
And a hypocrite. And are committing libel against an Archbishop of the Orthodox Church.

You have produced no proof, either from the Courts or from the Patriarchate, that the globally reported statements of the Archimandriite in support of sucide bombers and violent methods were all a lie created by Israeli Intelligence, as you claimed.   Until you do, I am sticking with the evidence we have.   And, btw, look at the way you have conducted your campaign against the Russians in this thread, without offering any evidence at all.  "ThePilgrin" Subdeacon John provided, in message #101, cogent insight into your purpose and intentions in starting this thread.  You commenced it with a malevolent tinge.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #152 on: December 31, 2009, 07:44:40 AM »
If you are suggesting they issued him with a passport because the Vatican too are strongly supportive of the Palestinian cause, so what? No one is denying that H.G. Theodosios is an outspoken critic of the Israeli occupation and oppression of the Arab peoples. But that is quite different from being a "horrible warmonger" as you have called him.

When did he make these statements in support of the violent murder of innocent people?  2002?  Read the Orthodox lists for the timeframe and see what the Orthodox have to say about him.

You should also research his removal from his position as spokesman for the Patriarchate -because of these statements.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #153 on: December 31, 2009, 07:51:20 AM »
Quote
"I strongly reject terrorist bombings that target innocent people, regardless of their nationality and religion," he [Attallah Hanna] told The Jerusalem Post this week. "The statements attributed to me are fabricated and untrue. The purpose is to hurt the church and its humane and moral stance."
Source

His Grace is a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause. He supports the right of Palestinians to defend themselves against Israeli oppression and tyranny, using force if necessary. However, he has never supported or encouraged violent attacks against innocent civilians.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:56:09 AM by Orthodox11 »

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #154 on: December 31, 2009, 07:59:44 AM »
Quote
"I strongly reject terrorist bombings that target innocent people, regardless of their nationality and religion," he [Attallah Hanna] told The Jerusalem Post this week. "The statements attributed to me are fabricated and untrue. The purpose is to hurt the church and its humane and moral stance."
Source

His Grace is a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause. He supports the right of Palestinians to defend themselves against Israeli oppression and tyranny, using force if necessary. However, he has never supported or encouraged violent attacks against innocent civilians.

It is the intention of suicide bombers to kill the innocent.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #155 on: December 31, 2009, 08:24:52 AM »
Quote
"I strongly reject terrorist bombings that target innocent people, regardless of their nationality and religion," he [Attallah Hanna] told The Jerusalem Post this week. "The statements attributed to me are fabricated and untrue. The purpose is to hurt the church and its humane and moral stance."
Source

His Grace is a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause. He supports the right of Palestinians to defend themselves against Israeli oppression and tyranny, using force if necessary. However, he has never supported or encouraged violent attacks against innocent civilians.

His Eminence made a grave error is supporting the murder of the innocent and he denied making his statements....



Special Dispatch Series - No. 459
January 22, 2003 No.459

Source provided at bottom of post

Palestinian Christian Leader in Praise of Martyrdom Operations and the
Formation of a Muslim and Christian Human Shield to Defend Iraq



In July 2002, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate decided to fire Father
'Atallah Hanna(1) (also known as Archimandrite Theodosios Hanna) from his
post as official spokesman of the Greek Orthodox Church, following
statements he made in praise of suicide attacks.(2) Nevertheless, Father
Hanna continues to present himself as the Church's official spokesman, and
has not stopped issuing statements lauding suicide attacks.

Recently, Father Hanna offered his views on three different occasions:
during a sermon marking the Epiphany at a Greek Orthodox cathedral in
Jerusalem, during a rally at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem,
and during a reception for an official delegation in Haifa. The following
are excerpts of statements made by Hanna during these events:

At A Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Jerusalem

In a January 19, 2003 sermon marking the Epiphany and the baptism of Jesus,
at a Greek Orthodox cathedral in Jerusalem, Hanna said: "Palestine is from
the sea to the river. The Jordan River is a holy river forever and it is the
natural border of Palestine. We emphatically refuse any concession on [even]
a grain of the land of our precious homeland. Just as Ramallah, Gaza,
Nablus, and Jenin are Palestinian cities, so are Haifa, Nazareth, Jaffa,
Ramle, Lod, Beersheba, Safed, and others Palestinian cities. We have not
relinquished and we will not relinquish our historic right, and we will not
agree to any concession on these cities. These are Palestinian cities that
were occupied in 1948."

"The Zionist Jews are foreigners in this land. They have no right to live or
settle in it. They should go somewhere else in the world to establish their
state and their false entity. With regard to Palestine and its beating heart
Jerusalem, it was never in the hands of the Jews. It was and will forever
remain Arab. Jerusalem is an Arab city and the Jews must not settle in it,
be masters over it, or carry out any type of religious ritual or ceremony in
it. They must leave their homes. They have no right to live on land, [or in]
cities or villages that are not theirs..."

"We do not believe in so-called 'peace with Israel' because peace cannot be
made with Satan. Israel is the greatest Satan. No concession and no truce
must be made [with Israel]. Any type of peace with this entity is
concession, submission, and retreat from pan-Arab and national principles...
The negotiations and the other attempts [at an arrangement] will not restore
the Palestinians' rights to them. The Palestinians' rights will be restored
only by resistance. What was taken by force will be restored only by
force..."

"Resistance is the obligation of every Palestinian Christian Arab, as it is
the obligation of every Palestinian Muslim Arab."

"We encourage our youth to participate in the resistance, to carry out
martyrdom attacks,
and to participate in removing the occupation. There is a
need for resistance to the occupation, and for Islamic-Christian
cooperation, so that we will remove the foreign Zionist Jewish intruders and
so that the gates of Palestine will open wide and all those who were
uprooted or emigrated in 1967 and 1948 will return..."

"From this holy Church, and in the presence of all the believing clerics, we
give today a prayer for the sake of the souls of our Shahids and resistors
and for the sake of our heroic Palestinian people, whether living in the
homeland or outside it... We say to the sons of our people: 'Do not retreat,
do not fear, and do not despair.' The Arab Palestinian right to this land is
stronger than any false Zionist military ammunition, which will disappear
sooner or later. This is because the Zionist entity plundering our lands and
our holy places is an entity that cannot maintain stability, and its end
will be to disappear, just like all kinds of colonialism on our land in the
past have disappeared."(3)

At the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem

Hanna delivered similar statements during a rally held on Friday, January
17, 2003 in the square of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem to
protest the "American threats to attack Iraq." Participating in the rally
were Christian clerics, Palestinian Christian personalities, and local
residents. Hanna, who was introduced as the official spokesman of the
Orthodox Church in Jerusalem and Holy Lands, gave a speech on behalf of the
clerics. Condemning the upcoming war on Iraq, he said: "From the Church of
the Holy Sepulcher, the Christians' holiest place, we express our Church's
and our people's solidarity with the heroic Iraqi people which is subject to
daily provocations... From this holy place, the tomb of Jesus, we demand
determined and vigorous Arab and international intervention to prevent the
aggression against Iraq and against its proud people..."

"We stand alongside our Iraqi brothers, in heart and in spirit. The ones who
target them target us as well. We bless Iraq and its people, from Jerusalem,
the capital of the independent Palestinian state... We have assembled a
national Palestinian Islamic-Christian commission, comprising Muslim and
Christian clerics, so that [its members] will go to Iraq, constitute a human
shield, and convey our message."

Hanna spoke out in praise of suicide attacks: "We declare publicly our
blessing, support, and legitimization of the brave Palestinian resistance
[carried out] by any means, including the brave Fidaiyin(4) martyrdom
operations... The names of the Fidaiyi Shahids [the martyrs] will be
inscribed in the history of our Palestinian and Arab people in holy white
letters.
The voices of those who defame these acts of heroism and honor are
nothing more than anomalous voices that do not represent Arab and
Palestinian public opinion..."

"The Fidaiyin martyrdom operations aimed deep inside Israel are unique
pioneer operations that deter the Zionist enemy. They have caused great
damage to this enemy, which understands nothing but the language of force
and thinks that only force will bring peace.
We say to the enemy: 'Leave our
land, our Jerusalem, and our holy places. This is Arab Palestinian land,
that has no connection whatsoever to the Jews and the Zionists'..."

"Martyrdom operations are an excellent and good way to resist the Zionist
invasion of the Palestinian land. In front of the Church of the Holy
Sepulcher, we bless the souls of the heroic Shahids and the families of the
Shahids.
We demand that these families be looked after, helped, and adopted,
because the occupation targets them."(5)

At a Haifa Reception

According to Al-Quds Press Hamas' news agency, during a "reception for an
official delegation in Haifa," Father Hanna called for joint
Islamic-Christian operations to interfere with the imminent U.S. attack on
Iraq and liberate Palestine from "the [Mediterranean] sea to the [Jordan]
river." Hanna said that when he is freed from house arrest and his passports
are returned he will put together a Christian delegation that will go to
Iraq to serve as a human shield against the anticipated war.

Hanna also told the delegation: "The Fidaiyin are the heroes of this nation.
We are proud of them and resolutely refuse any attempt to defame their
deeds... They are not committing suicide, as some claim, and they are not
terrorists, as others claim – they are resisting the occupation. We
unreservedly support the martyrdom operations."
Hanna also called on
"Palestinian Arab Christians to participate in resisting the occupation in
all forms, since they are part of the Palestinian people and of this
nation." He said, "True reform is reform that must provide an answer to the
question of how it is possible to escalate the resistance in all ways, so as
to actualize our national goals."(6)

Two days after these statements were published, Hanna strongly denied having
made them.(7)

Endnotes:
(1) Born in Haifa and holds both Israeli citizenship and a PA passport
granted by Arafat.
(2) See MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 405, July 30, 2002,
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP40502 .
(3) Al-Hayat (London), January 20, 2002.
(4) Similar to "martyr," in common use.
(5) Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), January 18, 2003.
(6)http://www.palestine-info.info/arabic/palestoday/dailynews/2003/jan03/11_1/de\
tails.htm#4,
January 11, 2003; www.arabs48.com/display.x?cid=91&sid=212&id=7875, January
11, 2003, and Al-Sabil (Jordan), January 15, 2003.
(7) Al-Ahali (Israel), January 13, 2003

Source :: Scholars for Peace in the Middle East (SPME)
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:UC6FZ0qp3CgJ:spme.net/cgi-bin/facultyforum.cgi%3FID%3D1545+%22In+July+2002,+the+Greek+Orthodox+Patriarchate+decided+to+fire+Father%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

SPME Daily Digest
Early Edition
1.24.2003




« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 08:33:29 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #156 on: December 31, 2009, 08:30:35 AM »
Who recorded this sermon? Was there an official transcript (i.e. one written by H.G. Theodosios himself)? Audio or video recording?

If not, it's his word against theirs (whoever "they" are). I still don't see your point about the Vatican. Why does a Vatican passport prove that he is a warmonger?

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #157 on: December 31, 2009, 08:34:48 AM »
Who recorded this sermon? Was there an official transcript (i.e. one written by H.G. Theodosios himself)? Audio or video recording?

If not, it's his word against theirs (whoever "they" are).


Source :: Scholars for Peace in the Middle East (SPME)
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:UC6FZ0qp3CgJ:spme.net/cgi-bin/facultyforum.cgi%3FID%3D1545+%22In+July+2002,+the+Greek+Orthodox+Patriarchate+decided+to+fire+Father%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

SPME Daily Digest
Early Edition
1.24.2003

(2) See MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 405, July 30, 2002,
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP40502 .
(3) Al-Hayat (London), January 20, 2002.
(4) Similar to "martyr," in common use.
(5) Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), January 18, 2003.
(6)http://www.palestine-info.info/arabic/palestoday/dailynews/2003/jan03/11_1/de\
tails.htm#4,
January 11, 2003; www.arabs48.com/display.x?cid=91&sid=212&id=7875, January
11, 2003, and Al-Sabil (Jordan), January 15, 2003.
(7) Al-Ahali (Israel), January 13, 2003


« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 08:41:36 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #158 on: December 31, 2009, 09:31:26 AM »
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I don't have to sweetie:
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/a/R/u/m/
In fact your own Patriarchate of Antioch calls itself "Rum Orthodox"
Apology accepted for your inane comment.

Your ignorance is breathtaking, as is the sophomoric level of your argumentation. Now, once again what in the world is bugging you? You are acting out like a petulant child. Pull yourself together for heaven's sake!

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #159 on: December 31, 2009, 09:37:47 AM »
Who recorded this sermon? Was there an official transcript (i.e. one written by H.G. Theodosios himself)? Audio or video recording?

If not, it's his word against theirs (whoever "they" are).


Source :: Scholars for Peace in the Middle East (SPME)
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:UC6FZ0qp3CgJ:spme.net/cgi-bin/facultyforum.cgi%3FID%3D1545+%22In+July+2002,+the+Greek+Orthodox+Patriarchate+decided+to+fire+Father%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

SPME Daily Digest
Early Edition
1.24.2003

(2) See MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 405, July 30, 2002,
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP40502 .
(3) Al-Hayat (London), January 20, 2002.
(4) Similar to "martyr," in common use.
(5) Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), January 18, 2003.
(6)http://www.palestine-info.info/arabic/palestoday/dailynews/2003/jan03/11_1/de\
tails.htm#4,
January 11, 2003; www.arabs48.com/display.x?cid=91&sid=212&id=7875, January
11, 2003, and Al-Sabil (Jordan), January 15, 2003.
(7) Al-Ahali (Israel), January 13, 2003




Dear Father Ambrose--Your comments on the Palestinian "warmonger" Archbishop are spot on. You have proven your point and owe no further explanations to those who will not see the truth even if it hit them between their eyes. I continue to marvel at your patience and forbearance. Please take care of yourself.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #160 on: December 31, 2009, 09:52:42 AM »

Dear Father Ambrose--Your comments on the Palestinian "warmonger" Archbishop are spot on. You have proven your point and owe no further explanations to those who will not see the truth even if it hit them between their eyes. I continue to marvel at your patience and forbearance. Please take care of yourself.

You're definitely invited to New Year's dinner.  :laugh:

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #161 on: December 31, 2009, 09:59:47 AM »
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I don't have to sweetie:
http://www.fallingrain.com/world/YI/a/R/u/m/
Ruma: origin obscure, assumed to be Turkish.
Rumenka: comes from Serbian Румен, "Red," supposed for the red flowers there.  Called Piros in Hungarian for the same reason.
Rumska:(<Rupska, etymologically meaning [in Serbian] "Mining Village").
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24405585/Roman-mining-in-Illyricum-historical-aspects-S-Dusanic

Do check these.

You leave out the largest-Rumelia<Turkish "Rum eli" "Land of the Roman."  The people on this map seem to insist on calling themselves, for the most part, "Greeks."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Rumelia_map.jpg
(Btw, interesting name for the Greek Islands "Djezair" Turkish Cezair (< Arabic "Islands," the same name for Algiers/Algeria).

Quote
In fact your own Patriarchate of Antioch calls itself "Rum Orthodox"
Not a wish: a hold over from the Ottoman period. Unlike the Bulgarians, we didn't get a seperate millet.  I myself am not crazy about being called Ruumii, for a variety of reasons.

Btw, Happy New Year!
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #162 on: December 31, 2009, 10:04:04 AM »
Quote
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I, for one, call myself "român".
Yeah, but that's because the newcomers call you "Vlach" "foreigner."  And for reasons which predate the founding of Constantinople by that Latin Constantine (a proto-Romanian, as was Justinian, facts the Romanians oddly don't make much of).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #163 on: December 31, 2009, 10:41:28 AM »
And you know full well that his election was an exception and a sop offered to the Palestinians by the Greek Patriarchate.  The man is a horrible warmonger and should never have been made a bishop.  His encouragement of suicide bombers etc, is far from Christian.
I think you need to back up your defamatory claims about a Bishop of the Orthodox Church.

Pshaw!  It was all over the Internet when Archimandrite Hanna expressed his approval of Palestinian suicide bombers killing Israelis.  Don't tell me the horrifed reaction from the Orthodox world was not heard in Australia.
I think you are spending too much time on the internet. That's the problem.
He was arrested and interrogated by the Israelis and no charges were laid because the claims were false. It was plain and simple persecution of a Palestinian by the Israelis to try and prevent him being consecrated Bishop. Now if you have evidence to the contrary, kindly present it or post a public apology to Archbishop Theodosios for your libelous claim.

Many lectures and publications at the Zayed Centre praise suicide bombings. For example, on June 19, 2002, Father Atallah Hanna, the spokesman of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem, spoke at the Zayed Centre, ( http://www.zccf.org.ae/e_TitleDescription.asp?Tid=43 ). According to the Zayed Centre's summary of the lecture, Father Hanna stated that "the conduct of the Zionist movement is characterized by its racist nature, and that it is completely in contradiction with the Muslim and Christian values… He also denounced the Judaization process carried out by the Israeli government for the city of Jerusalem. In this regard, he mentioned the measures taken by Israel to empty the city of Muslims and Christian and replace them [with] Jewish settlers. As an eye witness of [the] Jenin massacre, he said that it had been the most horrible tragedy ever perpetrated against humanity… Answering a question on the Orthodox Church’s stance as regards suicide bombings, he said that Palestinian martyrdom is part [of] the Intifada which has to remain kindled until a resolution is achieved for the Palestinian cause… Introducing the speaker, prior to the lecture, Mr. Mohammed Khalifa Al-Murar, Executive Director of ZCCF, said that Father Atallah has an honorable record in his struggle against the Israeli occupation." A report about Father Atallah Hanna's speech appeared in the Gulf News the following day. The report quotes Father Hanna as saying that "political parties in Palestine agree to the continuation of the Intifada, which includes different approaches of struggle. Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued Intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes… We are part of the Intifada, so you don't expect us to keep distance and watch. We are in the struggle, whether it's martyrdom or any other means, we are part of it."

Shortly after his appearance at the Zayed Centre, Father Hanna was dismissed from his position as spokesman for the Church. In response, Father Hanna said "The decision to fire [me] is illegal, illegitimate, and baseless… I will not comply with the decision and I will carry out my daily duties as spokesman for the community without considering [this] decision." In fact, Father Hanna has continued to present himself as spokesman of the Church, and continued to publicly support suicide bombings.

http://www.memritv.org/report/en/906.htm

Memri is an organization founded and run by Zionists, and for their own purposes (e.g. fighting the existence of Middle East Studies Departments in the US).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memri_tv

Quote

Police Question Greek Orthodox Priest on Ties to Terror
Archimandrite Hana Atalla of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate was questioned by police on Thursday on suspicion of supporting terror and traveling illegally to Syria and Lebanon, THE JERUSALEM POST reported. Police spokesman Gil Kleiman said Atalla is suspected of having met with Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah during a recent visit to Syria and Lebanon, where he allegedly expressed support for terrorist organizations. He is also suspected of calling on Christians to participate in the Palestinian uprising.

"Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes," Atalla said in a speech in Dubai on June 20. A report in Itim said he also appeared recently on Hizbullah's television station.

The Patriarchate, in an official statement, denied that Atalla is a spokesperson for the church. Bishop Aristorchus, a spokesperson for the Patriarchate, said Atalla is a clerk in the Arabic department of the Patriarchate's secretariat. He added that the Patriarch does not agree Attla's statements. The Patriarch also said that Atalla was not given permission to travel to Syria and Lebanon.

http://www.nyjtimes.com/Heritage/News/August1902.htm



-oOo-

Arab Christian Suicide Bombers?

Jan. 15….(Islamic News) Orthodox Church spokesman Father Attallah Hanna caused great controversy last year with his comments in support of Palestinian suicide bombers, saying, "Some freedom fighters adopt martyrdom or suicide bombing, while others opt for other measures. But all these struggles serve the continued intifada for freedom. Therefore, we support all these causes." The sentiment that brought these extreme comments from one leader appears to have spread to other Christian religious leaders. Now, however, Father Hanna is going beyond verbal support for Palestinian suicide bombers and is even suggesting that Christians take an active role. Father Hanna met with a Palestinian delegation this week in which he praised the "martyrdom operations", calling on Palestinian Christians and Arabs to do everything in their power to resist the Israeli occupation. Hanna said the men who carry out acts of martyrdom were not "suicide bombers" or "terrorists" but heroes and encouraged Christians and Muslims to work together to liberate Palestine. Catholic Father Johanna Qaltah echoed Father Hanna's comments adding that martyrdom is a duty and an obligation for all Arab citizens, Muslims or Christians, in defense of their land and honor. Also adding his support to suicide bombers is Ikram Lamaei, Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Anglican Church in Egypt and professor of comparative religion. Lamaei would like to see Yasser Arafat's Fatah group train Christians to become martyrs in joint Islamic-Christian operations. Lamei believes this would send a message to the world that Palestinians and Arabs are united, regardless of religious differences. According to some reports, leaders of Christian sects in Egypt as well as leading Coptic political activists have endorsed the idea of joint Christian-Islamic martyr brigades and praised these leaders for their recent statements. Those Christian leaders calling for such action believe it is important to distinguish between Western and Eastern Christians. According to one leader, unless Eastern Christians embrace the Arab Islamic civilization, it will not have a future. Israel, however, has formally protested the remarks of Father Hanna to the Jerusalem Orthodox Church, accusing him of supporting terrorist operations and posing a threat to national security.

Just to briefly give some context, the Chrisitans live in a situation where their loyalty is suspect.  I just to joke that if Yasser Arafat killed one Zionist, George Habash (a baptized Arab Orthodox from St. George's hometown and a choir boy, until the Zionists expelled all gentiles, Muslim and Christian, and leveled the town for Tel Aviv's airport; and a leader of the PLO before Arafat sidelined him) had to kill 100.  The issue of distinction from Western Christians is also because they often end up scapgoats of what the new Crusaders are up to.  And before some get on their high horse, I'll remind you that "dissident" Jews were/are similarly vilified when not towing the Zionist line, and the treatment of the American Loyalists ended up in the foundation of Canada.  As to the assoication with Hamas (something Habash, for instance, reversed himself), the same ilk who founded Memri also help found Hamas: the original idea was to divide the Palestinians by creating a religious based movement to weaken the aggressively secular PLO.  Be careful what you wish for.....

As to "innocent civilians," at the time of the invasion of Lebanon, someone pointed out that just the dead from the massacre of Deir Yassin outnumbered all those killed by "terrorists" (btw, that term entered common parlance when the British applied it to the American minutemen, a name they more than earned decades later by their government burning down the civilian infrastructure in Canada) from the Zionist states founding to the invasion (those who did it later ran the Zionist government, a fact later brought up by the Syrian delegate holding up the WANTED poster for Shamir issued by the British. Nobel Peace laureate Menahem Begin was another).  The dead from the death march out of Lydda in 1948 has also been estimated to outnumber the "victims" of Palestinian "terrorism."

What is going on in Palestine is what was going on in the Balkans in the waning days of the Ottomans (and the breakup of Yugoslavia), and should be seen in the same light.

Irish Hermit. Once again you are the voice of the enemies of the Orthodox Church. Here's the truth, and when you read it, why not crawl back into your gossip sewer.

A difference of opinion, but not gossip.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 10:51:23 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #164 on: December 31, 2009, 11:06:23 AM »
Irish Hermit. Once again you are the voice of the enemies of the Orthodox Church. Here's the truth, and when you read it, why not crawl back into your gossip sewer.

Are you aware that you are quoting from a Palestinian site which supports the Intifada,

The Intifada should be supported.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/24/AlDurrah1.jpg


Quote
terrorism, etc.?

Colonial America, Canada, the Balkans, the Caucasus, Ireland-it often depends who is asked.





Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #165 on: December 31, 2009, 11:10:01 AM »
And why does he travel on a Vatican passport?

An Israeli passport is not going to get you into Syria and Lebanon, which were the countries in question.

The Vatican one is also handy, given the restrictions on the Arab (actually all non-Jews) on the former (e.g. no right of return after a year outside).

And why does he travel on a Vatican passport?

An Israeli passport is not going to get you into Syria and Lebanon, which were the countries in question.

Rather unusual for the Vatican to issue a passport to a mere monk (at the time) of the Jerusalem Patriarchate which has officially expressed nothing but dislike and distrust of the Vatican.

The Patriarch:  "Beyond the religious propaganda and the proselytizing of the Roman Catholics, however, our Patriarchate faces also their cunning attempts to outflank the Orthodox presence in the Most Holy Places of Pilgrimage and to increase their influence over the Holy Land, through the political diplomacy of the Vatican and the intervention of Catholic European forces into the international political scene."

The Greek Pot is entitled to calling the Vatican kettle black, but for the Palestian Arabs, the "Latin" (now, post Vatican II, the Arab) presence is a blessing.  He and the other Tomb worshippers would do better to change that, rather than complain.

A lot of Palestinians had to depend on stateless UN passports, I wouldn't be suprised if the Vatican was doing similar service for Christians.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 11:18:42 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #166 on: December 31, 2009, 11:18:32 AM »

Colonial America, Canada, the Balkans, the Caucasus, Ireland-it often depends who is asked.



I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #167 on: December 31, 2009, 11:20:26 AM »
I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.
How holy you are. Except when His Grace the Archbishop of Sebastia says the same, you claim he is lying.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #168 on: December 31, 2009, 11:25:57 AM »
I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.

How holy you are. Except when His Grace the Archbishop of Sebastia says the same, you claim he is lying.

Well, unlike His Eminence I am not on record as having advocated the bombing of the innocent and praising those who do it as heroes and martyrs.  I am no sugarplum fairy about Irish politics but violence against the innocent turns my stomach.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 11:27:13 AM by Irish Hermit »

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #169 on: December 31, 2009, 11:30:45 AM »
I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.

How holy you are. Except when His Grace the Archbishop of Sebastia says the same, you claim he is lying.

Well, unlike His Eminence I am not on record as having advocated the bombing of the innocent and praising those who do it as heroes and martyrs.  I am no sugarplum fairy about Irish politics but violence against the innocent turns my stomach.
You are lying and you know it. And all the Churches of the Holy Land know you are lying:
http://www.hcsn.org/HCEF/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=931&Itemid=45
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #170 on: December 31, 2009, 11:36:34 AM »

Colonial America, Canada, the Balkans, the Caucasus, Ireland-it often depends who is asked.



I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.

Just to be clear, I wasn't claiming you had, Father.  But many do, whether by adovating present armed struggle, or sanctified past armed struggle.  On that, one need only compare notes with the Americans and Canadians on the American War of Independence.  And the Memri crowd are the worst offenders.

I'd like to see the speech in the Arabic, but one thing I'd like to know is what sucide (they are called "self sacrifice" in Arabic, not suicide) bombers his grace was referring to.  They are not all the same.

Happy New Year.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 11:37:48 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #171 on: December 31, 2009, 11:40:33 AM »
An observation: Although they come from all across the globe, the passions on display in this thread highlight the difficulties that unity of the Church in America faces; I am not weighing in, or commenting upon, the merits,or lack of merits (as the case may be) of any poster or the sincerity of his or her point of view.  I am simply observing that the heartfelt passion that is being voiced here on this issue, can be heard among the Faithful in the US on issues that are particular to us, vis-a-vis our relationships with the 'Old World" churches and the cultural heritage that we all bring to the Church, be we cradle Orthodox or converts. Let us agree that during this season of the Nativity, as we celebrate the Birth of the Prince of Peace for all of us (regardless of calendar) that we join in a prayer for peace and unity for surely, God is with us! -S'nami Boh!

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #172 on: December 31, 2009, 11:44:25 AM »
You are lying and you know it. And all the Churches of the Holy Land know you are lying:
http://www.hcsn.org/HCEF/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=931&Itemid=45


The Patriarchate removed Archimandrite Hanna from his position as one of the spokemen for the Patriarchate - because of those remarks.  So the Patriarchate accepted that Fr Hanna had been accurately reported, or did they just seize the opportunity to get rid of him and did not care if the remarks were accurately reported or not?

The good Father did not remain idle in Church affairs and he had his revenge by being one of the chief movers in having the Patriarch overthrown.  Then Patriatch Theophilos was elected and the Archimandrite was raised to a bishop.   A year after bering made a bishop he offended the new Patriarch Theophilos and he was suspended (May 2007) from episcopal sevrices and functions for 2 months.  It's hard to know what to make of all those events in rapid sequence. 

I give you the facts.  You interpret them.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #173 on: December 31, 2009, 11:45:04 AM »
All the Greeks in Palestine are from Greece or Cyprus.  The schools that the Patriarchate runs are run for Greeks from Greece: the local Arabs only gained access when, during the Intifadah, the Greeks stopped coming (they teach the Arabs Greek from textbooks from the Greek Ministry of Education, so they "can go to school.").  It is the Phanariots-all 500 or so of them in Palestine (there being no local Greek population)-who identify the Church with ethnicity.  And that's the Greek flag they are waving.

Yes, they're nearly all from Greece or Cyprus, they often exclude non-Greeks from their ranks, and the way they adorn Orthodox churches in the Holy Land with the flag of the republic of Greece is absolutely disgusting. However, the Church of Jerusalem is the Church of Jerusalem. The "Greek Church" has not come to the Holy Land and replaced the "Palestinian Church." The problem are the ethnic Greeks who think it is acceptable to exclude non-Greeks from the leadership of the Church, but the Church of Jerusalem will remain Church of Jerusalem whether its leaders are Greek, Arab or Kenyan.

By speaking of "Greek Church" taking over the Holy Land, you're making the exact same mistake as these so-called 'Phanariots.'

Quote
The Pan-Orthodox Synod voted to support the decision in May 2005, and in August Theophilos III was unanimously elected as the replacement. He was confirmed by the governments of Greece, Israel the Palestinian Authority and Jordan.
source

You were saying?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #174 on: December 31, 2009, 11:51:19 AM »
You are lying and you know it. And all the Churches of the Holy Land know you are lying:
http://www.hcsn.org/HCEF/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=931&Itemid=45


The Patriarchate removed Archimandrite Hanna from his position as one of the spokemen for the Patriarchate - because of those remarks.  So the Patriarchate accepted that Fr Hanna had been accurately reported, or did they just seize the opportunity to get rid of him and did not care if the remarks were accurately reported or not?

Given the antics of the Patriarchate (like selling Palestianian trust land to the Zionists), it can't be ruled out.


Quote
The good Father did not remain idle in Church affairs and he had his revenge by being one of the chief movers in having the Patriarch overthrown.  Then Patriatch Theophilos was elected and the Archimandrite was raised to a bishop.   A year after bering made a bishop he offended the new Patriarch Theophilos and he was suspended (May 2007) from episcopal sevrices and functions for 2 months.  It's hard to know what to make of all those events in rapid sequence.
 

Quote
Bethlehem - Ma'an - Thirteen Greek Orthodox Christian leaders met in Bethlehem Sunday and voted unanimously to Boycott the reception of the denomination's Patriarch Theophilos III for the 6 January Christmas celebrations.

Officials and scouts affiliated with the groups under the 13 and those they Represent will not receive the Patriarch at the March Elias Monastery or meet him at the entrance to Bethlehem at Israel's Checkpoint 300 for his Procession to the Nativity Church.

The decision came as a result of the meeting in the Orthodox society headquarters in Bethlehem, following the local leaders' dissatisfaction with the Patriarch's unrealized promises to rectify issues of land sales to Israel that saw the previous Patriarch sacked.

The former Patriarch Irenaios I was voted out of the position in 2005 by the Brotherhood of the Holy Sephruchle, of which he had been the head. The Congregation in Jerusalem had been increasingly angered by the sale of church land to the state of Israel, much of which was private Palestinian land in the trust given to the church before the 1967 war which saw Israel occupy the West Bank and annex East Jerusalem.

The Church owned land on which the Knesset and Israeli Prime Minister's residence is built. And under Irenaios, land from the Christian Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem as well as land next to March Elias were hip to the State of Israel. In October 1999 the church signed an agreement with a British company developing allowing construction of neighborhoods linking the Israeli settlements of Har Homa and Gilo....

Head of the Orthodox Institutions Council At-Toubasy Marwan told Ma'an the decision to Boycott came in response to the refusal of Theophilos III to abid by the promises he made to the Palestinian National Authority when they agreed to confirm their support for him as head of the Jerusalem Church.

According to At-Toubasy, the incoming Patriarch had promised to work on nullifying the land deals his predecessor had made. He was also accused of failing to comply with the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate Law No. 24 of 1958, which stipulates that in order to be approved by the Jordanian Crown, Church officials must be Jordanian Citizens....

At the time Theophilos was confirmed by the government of Jordan, and issued a statement promising to serve the church and support the Palestinian people...

The Congregation only found out about the lease, according to an interview from the Jordan Times in Amman with Farraj Basse-Orthodox Society, when the lawsuit was filed between two Israeli investors, one who had been Leased more than 700 dunums of land belonging to the church under Irenaios I, and the second developing the Land Leased by Theophilos III...

Theophilos said at-Toubassy also refused to respond to attempts by the Palestinian Authority to cancel deals made under his predecessor.
In June, the office of the Patriarch announced that it was able to stop an Israeli move to confiscated church property for road construction around March Elias

The group of 13 Bethlehem leaders said they would inform President Mahmud Abbas, Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, Bethlehem governor Abdel Fattah Hamaiel, and the mayors of Bethlehem, Beit Jala and Beit Sahour about their decision... [/ quote]

[url = http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=250666] source [/ url]

Quote
I give you the facts.  You interpret them.
Definitely not gossip, but difference of opinion/interpretation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 11:55:17 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #175 on: December 31, 2009, 11:59:56 AM »
You were saying?

I was saying that there is an unfortunate situation in the Church of Jerusalem, where ethnic Greeks (with notable exceptions) seem insistent on excluding non-Greeks from positions of leadership. The government of Greece also plays a part in maintaining this chauvinistic attitude. However, our Patriarchates are geographical, not ethnic. The Church of Jerusalem is the Church of Jerusalem whether it is presided over by local Palestinian clergy or held captive by foreigners. There is not a "Greek Church" which took control over the "Palestinian Church", although Greeks have certainly taken control of the Church of Jerusalem.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #176 on: December 31, 2009, 01:07:42 PM »
I am an Irishman and I long with all my heart to see Ireland united and the end of English power over the Occupied Counties but I have never, never, never advocated terrorism as a means to gain Irish freedom.

How holy you are. Except when His Grace the Archbishop of Sebastia says the same, you claim he is lying.

Well, unlike His Eminence I am not on record as having advocated the bombing of the innocent and praising those who do it as heroes and martyrs.  I am no sugarplum fairy about Irish politics but violence against the innocent turns my stomach.
You are lying and you know it. And all the Churches of the Holy Land know you are lying:
http://www.hcsn.org/HCEF/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=931&Itemid=45


1. Is there really large substantive differences between slandering a priest and a bishop? I believe that you just slandered Father Ambrose, a priest.

2. Your reply seems to indicate that Father Ambrose is lying about not advocating violence. Having read your link, it appears that you may be saying that Father Ambrose is lying about the Palestinian warmongering Archbishop.

3. You linked to the HCEF site to support you claim that "all the churches of the Holy Land know (Father Ambrose is) lying."

HCEF cannot be said to represent all of the churches in the Holy Land. Thus your claim is groundless (not surprising in this thread) and slanderous. Please do apologize.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 01:08:34 PM by Second Chance »

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #177 on: December 31, 2009, 01:56:54 PM »
Quote
I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.
Of all things, speaking Greek hasn't hurt anybody.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #178 on: December 31, 2009, 02:18:31 PM »
Quote
I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.
Of all things, speaking Greek hasn't hurt anybody.
Its the reason why the Aromanians have nearly disappeared.

Refusing to speak it has often gotten you killed.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #179 on: December 31, 2009, 03:23:48 PM »
Quote
I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.
Of all things, speaking Greek hasn't hurt anybody.

I do have relatives who became Greek in order to (a) make a better life for themselves and (b) to be left alone from persecution, and they say the same thing to justify their actions. That is OK with me because I was not in their shoes. Now, I am sure that if I have a chance to visit Greece, I will bone up on the Greek language so that I can make an effort to please my hosts. To me this is a matter of courtesy. One thing that I will not do is to dishonor my ancestors who strove so hard to earn the right to use their own language (and not Greek) in their own churches. In my people's history, Greeks did not ask us politely to speak Greek; instead they persecuted us when we did not and they tried to make us become Greek--in other words, cultural genocide. This is tragic not only because of what happened to my people but also because it came from the founders of modern Western Civilization and fellow Orthodox Christians.

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #180 on: December 31, 2009, 06:52:59 PM »
Quote
I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.
Of all things, speaking Greek hasn't hurt anybody.

Though, it should not be a requirement to attend church.

Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #181 on: December 31, 2009, 08:30:20 PM »
Quote
What about asking the poeple of the Balkans and the Levant if they wish to be considered "Romoi" or "Rum" ?
I, for one, call myself "român".

Oh no you don't. Second Chance, an American knows better than you. :D
Let me get this straight: You don't like Russians, Jews or Americans? Wow.

In Christ,
Andrew
"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #182 on: December 31, 2009, 09:13:22 PM »
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"I strongly reject terrorist bombings that target innocent people, regardless of their nationality and religion," he [Attallah Hanna] told The Jerusalem Post this week. "The statements attributed to me are fabricated and untrue. The purpose is to hurt the church and its humane and moral stance."
Source

His Grace is a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause. He supports the right of Palestinians to defend themselves against Israeli oppression and tyranny, using force if necessary. However, he has never supported or encouraged violent attacks against innocent civilians.

Are you not aware that you have just repeated the standard Palestinian propaganda? This Archbishop has supported violent, terrorist attacks against innocent civilians. Just because this so-called man of God, you and Ozgeorge say otherwise does not make it untrue. Please quit assaulting Christian decency and the integrity of the Orthodox Church by perverting the very meaning of language.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 09:23:16 PM by Second Chance »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #183 on: December 31, 2009, 11:30:54 PM »
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I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.
Of all things, speaking Greek hasn't hurt anybody.

Though, it should not be a requirement to attend church.
It is not. It has never been.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #184 on: January 01, 2010, 12:13:58 AM »
Quote
I just don't want to be Greek or speak Greek.
Of all things, speaking Greek hasn't hurt anybody.

Though, it should not be a requirement to attend church.
It is not. It has never been.
No. It often has been. E.g.

But speaking of the Romanians, I was going to post next on their cousins, the Aromanians or as you problably call them "Vlachs."  I'll start at a funeral:
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Here is one exmaple for many: "In 1904 a Vlach died in Monastir [Republic of Macedonia: then too it didn't have a majority Greek population] His relations wanted to bury him in Roumanian, the Greeks insisted in Greek.  The Bishop (a Greek) forbade a Roumanian funeral, the relations would not have a Greek one.  As usual both sides appealed to the judgee of ecclesiastical affaires, the Turkish Kaimakan.  The Kaimakan, as usual, could do nothing without instructions from Constantinople, and the Porte, as usual, could not make up its mind.  So there came a preliminary order to put off the funeral till the Governement had considered the caee.  Meanwhile, as it was becoming quite time to do something, the wretched man was embalmed.  Time passed and nothing was settled.  Then both sides began fighting over the body, the market-place was shut up, and two charges of cavalry could not disperse the mob.  The Wali, desperate and helpless, as last telegraphed direct to the Sultan imploring him to let the man be buried somehow before the mob had pulled the town down.  At last the decision came.  The Government could not afford to gratify either side, so the man was to be just put in the ground without any burial at all.  See the newspaper report in Bradford: Macedonia, pp. 189-190.  "Nothing," adds Mr. Bralisford, "could be more Turkish, and nothing could be more Greek."

Fortescue adds when "Greeks publish statistics of Macedonia, nearly all the people they brazenly write as "Hellenes" are really these half-Hellenized Vlachs"

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The Phanar knows that if all the Vlachs go there will be, indeed, nothing but a slender remnant of the Roman nation left to work for the "Great Idea" in Macedonia.  So it has set its face desperately against the Roumanian movement, as it does against all national feeling among the Christians that it will pretend to think Greeks.  For years there has been a regular persecusion of these Vlachs; every priest who spoke Roumanian in church was promptly excommunicated; the Greek papers never ceased heaping abuse on Margaritis and his work, and there has been a long chain of nationalistic squabbles under pretense of ecclesiastical disputes between these two parties as ludicrous to the outsider as they are degrading to the Orthodox Church.

http://books.google.com/books?id=6JkIrx4rlbwC&pg=PA332&lpg=PA332&dq=Fortescue+Vlach&source=bl&ots=ldRGEfez9U&sig=0Lk6kBcTgX1B0dNOj1YjQkP2oL4&hl=en&ei=CfUISvrLKpTFtgeC4b3gCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA334,M1

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Sir Charles Eliot clearly states his work "Turkey in Europe" that "...The Bulgarians, Serbs and Vlachs have Millets of their own and do not cooperate in the Hellenic cause" and that "we hear of Vlach bands who are said to contend (fight against) Greeks in the region of Karaferia (Veria)"".[23] There was also pressure on Aromanians to become linguistically assimilated, which can be traced back to the 18th century, when assimilation efforts were encouraged by the Greek missionary Cosmas of Aetolia (1714-1779) who taught that Aromanians should speak Greek because as he said "it's the language of our Church" and established over 100 Greek schools in northern and western Greece. The offensive of the clergy against the use of Aromanian was by no means limited to religious issues but was a tool devised in order to convince the non-Greek speakers to abandon what they regarded as a "worthless" idiom and adopt the superior Greek speech: "There we are Metsovian brothers, together with those who are fooling themselves with this sordid and vile Aromanian language... forgive me for calling it a language", "repulsive speech with a disgusting diction".[24] [25]

The Vlachs, recognized as a separate nation by the 1878 Treaty of Berlin, were for the first time incorporated in Greece only in 1881, when Thessaly and a part of Epirus were offered to Greece by the Great Powers. Having been split into two by the new borders, the bulk of the Vlachs of these province petitioned[29] the Great Powers of the time to be let to stay within the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire, but in vain. Greece followed a policy of creating a Greater Greece, according to the "Megali Idea". Most of the Aromanians became part of the Greek state in 1913 after the rest of Epirus and parts of Macedonia became part of Greece after the First Balkan War.

One of the greatest figures during the Aroumanian awakening was Apostol Margarit, a native of Avdela in southern Macedonia, on the slopes of the Pindus mountains. As early as 1862, Apostol Margarit introduced the vernacular in the school of the large prosperous town of Klissoura(Vlaho-Klisura), in the Kastoria region of Macedonia. Nicepheros, the Greek bishop of Kastoria tried for many years to close down the school, but without success. In December, 1879, the first unsuccessful attempt on the life of Apostol Margarit took place. Margarit was wounded during a second attempt on his life during December 1890. There were Vlach schools in Klissoura, Krushevo, Nizepole, Trnovo, Gopesh, Ohrid, old Avdela in the Pindus mountains and new Avdela near Veria. Later more schools were founded in Macedonia, and then a Vlach high school was established in Bitola(Monastir) in the 1880s. The Greeks were naturally alarmed by the national reawakening of the Vlachs. At their peak, just before the Balkan Wars,there were 6 secondary gymnasiums, and 113 primary schools, teaching in Vlach. Due to the ongoing pressures from the Greek Church in the Ottoman provinces of Rumelia, Vlachs and their schools were viewed with suspicion. In 1880 Greek guerrillas attacked some villages near Resen because the village priests had committed the unpardonable sin of using Vlach in the church services. In the same year the Greek bishop of Kastoria had the schoolmaster in Klissoura arrested because he taught in the Vlahs'native language. A momentous date in the history of the Vlachs was May 23, 1905, when the Sultan issued a decree officially recognizing the Vlachs and affirming their rights to maintain their schools and churches. Following the proclamation of the decree, the Greek bishops, and the armed terrorist bands they supported, unleashed a campaign of terror on the Aromanians to discourage them from taking advantage of their rights. In 1905, the Vlach abbot of the Holy Archangel monastery in the Meglen region was murdered by a Greek band. In the summer of 1905 some villages near Bitola were attacked. On October 27, 1905, Greek guerillas attacked the village of Avdela in the Pindus, birthplace of Apostol Margarit, and razed it to the ground. Then in 1906, in the town of Véria(Berea), the priest Papanace was murdered as he was on his way to church to serve the Divine Liturgy in Vlach. The Romanian Vlach school in the village of Avdhela in Pindus, which was one of the first Romanian sponsored Vlach schools, active as early as 1867, was burned and razed to the ground on 27 October 1905 by Greek guerrillas....George Padioti, an Aromanian author (born and living all his life in Greece) describes one of the last liturgy services in Vlach: “ February 1952, the Aromanian Church 'Biserica ramana Santu Dumitru', burned by German troops in spring 1944. The priest Costa Bacou officiated the last allowed liturgy in Aromanian language. Afterwards, he was not permitted anymore because he refused to forcibly officiate the divine service in Greek language."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians
http://www.bulgarmak.org/agras.htm

As a sidenote, this all had a profound influence on Arab history: the Ottoman adminstrator in Macedonia, Sati Husri was deeply impressed by the politics of the schools in identity formation in Macedonia, and after WWI implemented them as minister of education etc. in several Arab states.  Though a Muslim (secular), he identified the Arab Patriarchate of Antioch as "the first victory of Arab nationalism."

Too bad that hadn't extended to Jerusalem: I've been to both patriarchates, and the contrast between the vibrant Antioch and the moribund Jerusalem is striking.  Is it those Arabs that the PoJ sold to Phanar that you are talking about in the US?  Last I heard, the were still refusing to be handled like merchandise between absentee landlords (all in a days work for Phanariots).  Would it be obedience to go, or codependence?  The other Arabs I know who went to the GOA had real identity issues, thinking of themselves as ruumiy but marginalized as not being Greek.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16967.0.html


La Multi Ani.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Oh Those Russians
« Reply #185 on: January 01, 2010, 01:38:24 AM »
Thanks for the documentation.
La multi si fericiti ani!
Chronia polla ;)