Poll

Is it proper for an Orthodox Christian to get a tattoo?

It's fine, nothing wrong with it.
42 (22.6%)
They can if they want, but I wouldn't.
27 (14.5%)
Only in some circumstances.
23 (12.4%)
I don't think it's proper, no.
38 (20.4%)
It is absolutely, positively sinful!
15 (8.1%)
I'm not sure.
37 (19.9%)
None of the above.
4 (2.2%)

Total Members Voted: 186

Author Topic: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos  (Read 137272 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #495 on: November 25, 2014, 02:18:35 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints n the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
The prohibition on interbreeding is in the Torah. It is in the same chapter as the one that talks about not putting markings on ones body. If you hold one up as being obligatory on us, you should hold up the other one.

You do know I misread you originally.  For the record, I don't interbred my animals and am rid of cattle anyway.

And how about the beard trimming which is strictly prohibited in the verse before the markings verse?

Know your religion.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/clergy_hair.aspx
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #496 on: November 25, 2014, 02:24:07 AM »
Quote
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
This is what God said. It is LITERALLY God's words.  The question you must ask yourself is, has God cleansed food? What matter has God not cleansed? When Christ came to reconcile the world to God, what physical matter was exempted from that cleansing?  When you can show me the physical matter that God has not cleansed, then I will consider further your personal interpretation on this passage.

Yep.  It was God's words in Peter's vision that Peter said to the THREE men who were uncommon/unclean.  God did clean!  It was being clean three times of the three men...

Verse 28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #497 on: November 25, 2014, 02:24:52 AM »
You're the one who referred to the Talmud. Which means nothing to us.

Do you enjoy being incoherent?

What are you talking about?  I asked if he found that info in Torah or Talmud law.  He responded Torah.

You're not Jewish.

Again, it does not matter what it says in the Talmud.

You are right, and again right.
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Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #498 on: November 25, 2014, 02:28:50 AM »
Quote
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
This is what God said. It is LITERALLY God's words.  The question you must ask yourself is, has God cleansed food? What matter has God not cleansed? When Christ came to reconcile the world to God, what physical matter was exempted from that cleansing?  When you can show me the physical matter that God has not cleansed, then I will consider further your personal interpretation on this passage.

Yep.  It was God's words in Peter's vision that Peter said to the THREE men who were uncommon/unclean.  God did clean!  It was being clean three times of the three men...

Verse 28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #499 on: November 25, 2014, 02:33:50 AM »
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #500 on: November 25, 2014, 09:31:09 AM »
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
:laugh: Is there a time that I ever agree with YiM?
God bless!

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #501 on: November 25, 2014, 09:33:25 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints n the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
The prohibition on interbreeding is in the Torah. It is in the same chapter as the one that talks about not putting markings on ones body. If you hold one up as being obligatory on us, you should hold up the other one.

You do know I misread you originally.  For the record, I don't interbred my animals and am rid of cattle anyway.

And how about the beard trimming which is strictly prohibited in the verse before the markings verse?

Know your religion.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/clergy_hair.aspx
We aren't discussing my religion, we are discussing your beliefs which seem to include condemning others for not following a verse in Leviticus when you yourself do not follow the verse directly before it.
God bless!

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #502 on: November 25, 2014, 09:37:09 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
So really, this whole argument was a sly way of telling us that you personally find tattoos unclean and therefore you cannot get one, but there is nothing inherently unclean about them?  I find that interpretation of your beliefs hard to believe given your prior posts.

Not exactly.

The whole basis of my argument against tattoos is that a person has to go out of their way to get one.  You have to purposely set out, find a design, and get ink pierced into your skin.  There is *no* real reason to do this.  Food on the other hand, is something we must all have to live.  Tattoos are not.

Tattoos are purpose act that a person sets out to do, usually for no reason other than style.  If they offended God in the Old Testament and his people not to get a tattoo - and later refers to your body as the Holy temple, then it's probably NOT a good thing to do.

So once again, I have a plethora of links ready for you.

Oh yes, Eastern Orthodox / OO sources - but I'll start with this one.
http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html

There is a HUGE problem on this forum.  Orthodox Christians generally don't know their own faith.

It's both ironic, awkward, and amusing at the same time to watch so many argue with me (just like in the famous modesty thread), just to have me then start quoting Orthodox sources and show you that MY position backs an Orthodox viewpoint.

So as the argument (hopefully does not continue), I'll just continue to cite Orthodox sources and let all of you fight me with your opinion and let me know how "unorthodox" I am.
One priest's opinion on tattoos does not equate to the Orthodox faith. That only takes place in belief systems such as yours where there is only one adherent. You can quote all the Orthodox sources you want, but it isn't until you start quoting sources that recommend you examining the sin in your own life rather than everyone elses life that I am going to give much credence to your arguments.
God bless!

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #503 on: November 25, 2014, 11:57:15 AM »
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
:laugh: Is there a time that I ever agree with YiM?
I don't know, but you are not even agreeing with the scriptures. It's so obvious and clear.  I don't see why we are even arguing. ???
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #504 on: November 25, 2014, 11:59:38 AM »
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
:laugh: Is there a time that I ever agree with YiM?
I don't know, but you are not even agreeing with the scriptures. It's so obvious and clear.  I don't see why we are even arguing. ???


Than you could stop and leave people to their 'folly'......but you wouldn't have any fun then....would you?  :laugh:
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #505 on: November 25, 2014, 12:01:10 PM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
So really, this whole argument was a sly way of telling us that you personally find tattoos unclean and therefore you cannot get one, but there is nothing inherently unclean about them?  I find that interpretation of your beliefs hard to believe given your prior posts.

Not exactly.

The whole basis of my argument against tattoos is that a person has to go out of their way to get one.  You have to purposely set out, find a design, and get ink pierced into your skin.  There is *no* real reason to do this.  Food on the other hand, is something we must all have to live.  Tattoos are not.

Tattoos are purpose act that a person sets out to do, usually for no reason other than style.  If they offended God in the Old Testament and his people not to get a tattoo - and later refers to your body as the Holy temple, then it's probably NOT a good thing to do.

So once again, I have a plethora of links ready for you.

Oh yes, Eastern Orthodox / OO sources - but I'll start with this one.
http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html

There is a HUGE problem on this forum.  Orthodox Christians generally don't know their own faith.

It's both ironic, awkward, and amusing at the same time to watch so many argue with me (just like in the famous modesty thread), just to have me then start quoting Orthodox sources and show you that MY position backs an Orthodox viewpoint.

So as the argument (hopefully does not continue), I'll just continue to cite Orthodox sources and let all of you fight me with your opinion and let me know how "unorthodox" I am.
One priest's opinion on tattoos does not equate to the Orthodox faith. That only takes place in belief systems such as yours where there is only one adherent. You can quote all the Orthodox sources you want, but it isn't until you start quoting sources that recommend you examining the sin in your own life rather than everyone elses life that I am going to give much credence to your arguments.

LOL!!!!!!!!!

""Quote the scriptures, quote all the EO sources you want.  You are YiM, I am me, I am EO - so that makes you automatically wrong"".

Forget it.  Open mouth, insert 50 priest's feet and the bible.   Doesn't matter.   Out of your own fingers - You won't even listen to Eastern Orthodox sources.

If you won't listen to scripture and you won't listen to even those writing on this issue within your own religion then what's the point?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #506 on: November 25, 2014, 12:05:54 PM »
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
:laugh: Is there a time that I ever agree with YiM?
I don't know, but you are not even agreeing with the scriptures. It's so obvious and clear.  I don't see why we are even arguing. ???


Than you could stop and leave people to their 'folly'......but you wouldn't have any fun then....would you?  :laugh:
You have a point!

It's just sad to see it happen.  I mean having a beef with SOME elements (usually involving additions) of the EO faith is one thing. (and generally gets me demonized)  But wow these folks don't even know their own religion.  It's like me arguing FOR the general consensus of the clergy of the EO church and they fight me for it!

It makes me wonder how they contest me on other issues yet don't even know their own church.  If I recall, not long ago "somebody" suggested that perhaps I wasn't properly catechized. 
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #507 on: November 25, 2014, 12:07:25 PM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
So really, this whole argument was a sly way of telling us that you personally find tattoos unclean and therefore you cannot get one, but there is nothing inherently unclean about them?  I find that interpretation of your beliefs hard to believe given your prior posts.

Not exactly.

The whole basis of my argument against tattoos is that a person has to go out of their way to get one.  You have to purposely set out, find a design, and get ink pierced into your skin.  There is *no* real reason to do this.  Food on the other hand, is something we must all have to live.  Tattoos are not.

Tattoos are purpose act that a person sets out to do, usually for no reason other than style.  If they offended God in the Old Testament and his people not to get a tattoo - and later refers to your body as the Holy temple, then it's probably NOT a good thing to do.

So once again, I have a plethora of links ready for you.

Oh yes, Eastern Orthodox / OO sources - but I'll start with this one.
http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html

There is a HUGE problem on this forum.  Orthodox Christians generally don't know their own faith.

It's both ironic, awkward, and amusing at the same time to watch so many argue with me (just like in the famous modesty thread), just to have me then start quoting Orthodox sources and show you that MY position backs an Orthodox viewpoint.

So as the argument (hopefully does not continue), I'll just continue to cite Orthodox sources and let all of you fight me with your opinion and let me know how "unorthodox" I am.
One priest's opinion on tattoos does not equate to the Orthodox faith. That only takes place in belief systems such as yours where there is only one adherent. You can quote all the Orthodox sources you want, but it isn't until you start quoting sources that recommend you examining the sin in your own life rather than everyone elses life that I am going to give much credence to your arguments.

LOL!!!!!!!!!

""Quote the scriptures, quote all the EO sources you want.  You are YiM, I am me, I am EO - so that makes you automatically wrong"".

Forget it.  Open mouth, insert 50 priest's feet and the bible.   Doesn't matter.   Out of your own fingers - You won't even listen to Eastern Orthodox sources.

If you won't listen to scripture and you won't listen to even those writing on this issue within your own religion then what's the point?
The point you're missing is that you spend most of your time examining the lives of others but very little time examining your own life.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #508 on: November 25, 2014, 12:07:59 PM »
You can repeat how this is the "clear teaching of Scripture" all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

And newsflash, The Orthodox Church does not have an official teaching on tattoos. Certainly people within the Church have opinions and are free to provide those opinions, but that doesn't mean it is a dogma of the Church.

I don't even have a tattoo and I don't intend on ever getting one, so the question is largely academic for me. The more disturbing thing though, is your insistence that everyone accept your interpretation of Scripture. You don't even allow for reasonable minds to disagree because in your mind, everyone that has a different opinion than you is automatically unreasonable. Pride is discussed far more often in Scripture than tattoos are, yet you have no problem pridefully pronouncing your opinions as inerrant decrees directly from God.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #509 on: November 25, 2014, 12:14:48 PM »
Awww, YiM and his spokesperson are having a public disagreement.  Boo hoo hoo....   ::)
:laugh: Is there a time that I ever agree with YiM?
I don't know, but you are not even agreeing with the scriptures. It's so obvious and clear.  I don't see why we are even arguing. ???


Than you could stop and leave people to their 'folly'......but you wouldn't have any fun then....would you?  :laugh:
You have a point!

It's just sad to see it happen.  I mean having a beef with SOME elements (usually involving additions) of the EO faith is one thing. (and generally gets me demonized)  But wow these folks don't even know their own religion.  It's like me arguing FOR the general consensus of the clergy of the EO church and they fight me for it!

It makes me wonder how they contest me on other issues yet don't even know their own church.  If I recall, not long ago "somebody" suggested that perhaps I wasn't properly catechized. 


Stop, just stop.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #510 on: November 25, 2014, 12:15:25 PM »
Quote
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
This is what God said. It is LITERALLY God's words.  The question you must ask yourself is, has God cleansed food? What matter has God not cleansed? When Christ came to reconcile the world to God, what physical matter was exempted from that cleansing?  When you can show me the physical matter that God has not cleansed, then I will consider further your personal interpretation on this passage.

Yep.  It was God's words in Peter's vision that Peter said to the THREE men who were uncommon/unclean.  God did clean!  It was being clean three times of the three men...

Verse 28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.



Biro, I refuse to believe that you can't figure out what I'm saying.  It's so obvious, so cut and dry, so black and white (like the bear in your photo), AND obvious.

God said it THREE TIMES of the unclean animals in the vision -> Peter tried to figure out what the vision meant -> THREE men came ->Peter said that God showed they were not uncommon or unclean. (verse 28)

I'm not sure what else I can say  :P
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #511 on: November 25, 2014, 12:18:05 PM »
Stop trying to convert us to your brand of pseudo-Jewish sola scriptura fundamentalism.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 12:20:42 PM by kelly »
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #512 on: November 25, 2014, 12:22:26 PM »
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."
I would put it this way:

Yesh told us not to get tattoos.
Yesh has already shown that many of his teachings put him out of the Church, which he isn't even ashamed to admit.
Yesh is not an Orthodox dogmatic authority.
Therefore, we don't have to listen to Yesh.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #513 on: November 25, 2014, 12:26:52 PM »
You can repeat how this is the "clear teaching of Scripture" all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

And newsflash, The Orthodox Church does not have an official teaching on tattoos. Certainly people within the Church have opinions and are free to provide those opinions, but that doesn't mean it is a dogma of the Church.
Then what is the point of even listening to your "Holy spiritual Fathers and Masters"?  If you can't accept what they write, nor their advice, even when they are citing the same scriptures I did about tattoos and even EXPAND on it big time - what's the point?

Quote
I don't even have a tattoo and I don't intend on ever getting one, so the question is largely academic for me. The more disturbing thing though, is your insistence that everyone accept your interpretation of Scripture. You don't even allow for reasonable minds to disagree because in your mind, everyone that has a different opinion than you is automatically unreasonable. Pride is discussed far more often in Scripture than tattoos are, yet you have no problem pridefully pronouncing your opinions as inerrant decrees directly from God.

You don't interpret the scriptures, it's written on the original intent of the apostles.  There is only one right way to see them.  The book of Acts was written attesting to Jews (as Peter called himself in verse 28).  They had Jewish culture and Jewish understanding.

It was a Jewish law (as cited in verse 28) that these foreign men were uncommon or unclean.

The vision Peter had, which he had to "figure what it meant" where it was said to him 3 times came right before 3 otherwise "uncommon or unclean" men showed up.  In verse 28, he clearly said what the dream showed him.  "God showed me"...

I don't see why this is even an issue.   It's simply not about food.  As I said, there are other scriptures citing foods as clean if received in Thanksgiving, but this dream is not about clean/unclean food.  

This came from an issue concerning the law & tattoos.   EO sources point right back to the verse I did.  You are not understanding, while we are not under Torah law FOR SALVATION, it is still wise to follow.

ie- Just because you can achieve salvation with a tattoo, doesn't mean God likes them.


Do we love God or not?
  

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #514 on: November 25, 2014, 12:30:32 PM »
You don't interpret the scriptures, it's written on the original intent of the apostles.  There is only one right way to see them.  
And this is why there is only one understanding of what the Bible says. All people have been able to perfectly receive the Apostles original intent and that is why Christianity is so unified with no divisions or differences of opinions. Right?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 12:31:04 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #515 on: November 25, 2014, 12:33:39 PM »
Stop trying to convert us to your brand of pseudo-Jewish sola scriptura fundamentalism.
Blinders.

See sola scriptura is the trigger word to make you feel better to reject.

Just read it.  It's obvious.  This has nothing to do with Jewish, churches, or anything.  

This is seriously Elementary school folks.  

Deny with two fingers in your ears, hands over your eyes, and for what?   Clearly the bible has verses on food elsewhere that justifies the point of clean/unclean food.  But in this scripture, it is NOT talking about food.  PETER, yes St. Peter -> THE ROCK was trying to figure out what the vision meant.   Later he told what God showed him.

Oh my gosh.  Nevermind.   :-\
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #516 on: November 25, 2014, 12:34:49 PM »
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #517 on: November 25, 2014, 12:34:59 PM »
You can repeat how this is the "clear teaching of Scripture" all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

And newsflash, The Orthodox Church does not have an official teaching on tattoos. Certainly people within the Church have opinions and are free to provide those opinions, but that doesn't mean it is a dogma of the Church.
Then what is the point of even listening to your "Holy spiritual Fathers and Masters"?  If you can't accept what they write, nor their advice, even when they are citing the same scriptures I did about tattoos and even EXPAND on it big time - what's the point?
Yesh, when we want to know what the Fathers teach on certain matters of faith, we'll read them for ourselves. We don't need one who follows his own heresies proof-texting the Fathers for us.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #518 on: November 25, 2014, 12:37:00 PM »
Stop trying to convert us to your brand of pseudo-Jewish sola scriptura fundamentalism.
Blinders.

See sola scriptura is the trigger word to make you feel better to reject.

Just read it.  It's obvious.  This has nothing to do with Jewish, churches, or anything.  

This is seriously Elementary school folks.  

Deny with two fingers in your ears, hands over your eyes, and for what?   Clearly the bible has verses on food elsewhere that justifies the point of clean/unclean food.  But in this scripture, it is NOT talking about food.  PETER, yes St. Peter -> THE ROCK was trying to figure out what the vision meant.   Later he told what God showed him.

Oh my gosh.  Nevermind.   :-\

Are you ok?
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #519 on: November 25, 2014, 12:38:39 PM »
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...

I think it would for most people.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #520 on: November 25, 2014, 12:38:51 PM »
You don't interpret the scriptures, it's written on the original intent of the apostles.  There is only one right way to see them.  
And this is why there is only one understanding of what the Bible says. All people have been able to perfectly receive the Apostles original intent and that is why Christianity is so unified with no divisions or differences of opinions. Right?
NO.

It's because oral teachings and practices from multi cultures came in and interpreted the original intent of the apostles words.  

Peter said
Acts 10:28 (NIV this time)
28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

This was right after the dream.

I believe you understand this.  If you want to refuse to believe Peter I guess whatever.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #521 on: November 25, 2014, 12:43:01 PM »
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...
Okay.

Dreams never were interpreted in the scripture.
 :P
Oh yes, and Peter didn't try to FIGURE OUT what the dream meant.

Oh yes, and THREE "unclean/uncommon" people didn't show up.

Oh yes, and Peter did not say that "God has shown him that they were not uncommon or unclean".


It was about food.  Peter was just figuring it out but decided it was about food.   :P
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #522 on: November 25, 2014, 12:44:40 PM »
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #523 on: November 25, 2014, 12:45:00 PM »
You don't interpret the scriptures, it's written on the original intent of the apostles.  There is only one right way to see them.  
And this is why there is only one understanding of what the Bible says. All people have been able to perfectly receive the Apostles original intent and that is why Christianity is so unified with no divisions or differences of opinions. Right?
NO.

It's because oral teachings and practices from multi cultures came in and interpreted the original intent of the apostles words.  

Hmmm, there is that interpret word that you just denied previously. Are you saying that people do actually interpret the original intent?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #524 on: November 25, 2014, 12:46:29 PM »
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...

I think it would for most people.

I know.  This is because MOST people have been TOLD how to view this scripture.

Fortunately though Peter clarified the dream - Peter himself said:  Verse 28 (KJV)

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

For real I do NOT understand why this is so difficult??

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #525 on: November 25, 2014, 12:48:04 PM »
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...
Okay.

Dreams never were interpreted in the scripture.
 :P
Oh yes, and Peter didn't try to FIGURE OUT what the dream meant.

Oh yes, and THREE "unclean/uncommon" people didn't show up.

Oh yes, and Peter did not say that "God has shown him that they were not uncommon or unclean".


It was about food.  Peter was just figuring it out but decided it was about food.   :P

I think you must have a short term memory. I never said this was just about food. I have consistently said it was about God santifying all things and making all things clean.  Food is included in that, but it isn't just about food.  You are trying to mock me for being reductionist and making this just about food, but the reality is you are doing the same thing and ignoring the larger picture and making the whole thing about three guys.  There is a reason it is in Scripture, so we can ALL learn from the incident.  It isn't just about three guys being cleansed, it is about all of creation being reconciled to God.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #526 on: November 25, 2014, 12:49:39 PM »
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Why on Earth would you say that?    I'm merely saying THIS SCRIPTURE (Peter's DREAM) is NOT about God's law of clean/unclean food!  It's talking about the three men coming who would otherwise be unclean/uncommon.

There are OTHER SCRIPTURES that talk about ALL FOOD BEING CLEAN.  Yet for some, some things are unclean if they deem it so.


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Offline Theophania

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #527 on: November 25, 2014, 12:50:52 PM »
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Why on Earth would you say that?    I'm merely saying THIS SCRIPTURE (Peter's DREAM) is NOT about God's law of clean/unclean food!  It's talking about the three men coming who would otherwise be unclean/uncommon.

There are OTHER SCRIPTURES that talk about ALL FOOD BEING CLEAN.  Yet for some, some things are unclean if they deem it so.




You really don't understand why I would ask you that?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #528 on: November 25, 2014, 12:55:22 PM »
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Why on Earth would you say that?    I'm merely saying THIS SCRIPTURE (Peter's DREAM) is NOT about God's law of clean/unclean food!  It's talking about the three men coming who would otherwise be unclean/uncommon.

There are OTHER SCRIPTURES that talk about ALL FOOD BEING CLEAN.  Yet for some, some things are unclean if they deem it so.



Interesting factoid, your opinion on what this passage means originates with Seventh Day Adventism and was also believed by Armstrongism. You can go on and on about how obvious it is, but no one believed that interpretation before some mid 19th century heretics.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 12:58:37 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #529 on: November 25, 2014, 12:55:51 PM »
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...
Okay.

Dreams never were interpreted in the scripture.
 :P
Oh yes, and Peter didn't try to FIGURE OUT what the dream meant.

Oh yes, and THREE "unclean/uncommon" people didn't show up.

Oh yes, and Peter did not say that "God has shown him that they were not uncommon or unclean".


It was about food.  Peter was just figuring it out but decided it was about food.   :P

I think you must have a short term memory. I never said this was just about food. I have consistently said it was about God santifying all things and making all things clean.  Food is included in that, but it isn't just about food.  You are trying to mock me for being reductionist and making this just about food, but the reality is you are doing the same thing and ignoring the larger picture and making the whole thing about three guys.  There is a reason it is in Scripture, so we can ALL learn from the incident.  It isn't just about three guys being cleansed, it is about all of creation being reconciled to God.

Peter said it was about the three guys (gentiles)!

I don't know how much clearer he could have been.  Not mocking you at all. I just can't understand why this is so tough.  There are clearly OTHER scriptures citing all foods being clean when received in Thanksgiving.  There are other scriptures that talk about some things are unclean to others and to them it is unclean.  There are other scriptures that say NOT TO OFFEND if somebody serves something that is unclean to you.

It's a gray area.

Do you appeal to the following foods:  Rat meat?  Dog?  Cat?  Mouse?

If so, they are clean to you in Thanksgiving.

For me personally, I find rats gross and filthy, Dogs are too cute and gross (eat poop), Cats I don't like them and there is just something about them where I don't want to eat them, and mice are nasty.   They are UNCLEAN to me.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #530 on: November 25, 2014, 12:56:43 PM »
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Why on Earth would you say that?    I'm merely saying THIS SCRIPTURE (Peter's DREAM) is NOT about God's law of clean/unclean food!  It's talking about the three men coming who would otherwise be unclean/uncommon.

There are OTHER SCRIPTURES that talk about ALL FOOD BEING CLEAN.  Yet for some, some things are unclean if they deem it so.



Interesting factoid, your opinion on what this passage means originates Seventh Day Adventism and was also believed by Armstrongism. You can go on and on about how obvious it is, but no one believed that interpretation before some mid 19th century heretics.

Peter told you what God showed him.  You can accept it or reject it.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #531 on: November 25, 2014, 12:59:59 PM »
Do you follow all of the OT laws? I mean ALL.

A handy link listing all of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Why on Earth would you say that?    I'm merely saying THIS SCRIPTURE (Peter's DREAM) is NOT about God's law of clean/unclean food!  It's talking about the three men coming who would otherwise be unclean/uncommon.

There are OTHER SCRIPTURES that talk about ALL FOOD BEING CLEAN.  Yet for some, some things are unclean if they deem it so.




You really don't understand why I would ask you that?

I do.  It's because you are trying to box me in that I'm saying you have to follow the law.   I do not say this.  The law is NOT NECESSARY for salvation.

The law was called good & just in the New Testament.  In thread context, God did not want tattoos in the Old Testament. 

With a tattoo, you can still have salvation through Jesus Christ.

But do you really want to get one if God didn't want them originally?  Why purposely throw yourself into a tattoo chair and pick something out and have it inked on your temple?

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Offline Theophania

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2014, 01:00:05 PM »
Do you follow all the OT laws or not? If not, why?
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #533 on: November 25, 2014, 01:03:41 PM »
You don't interpret the scriptures, it's written on the original intent of the apostles.  There is only one right way to see them.  
And this is why there is only one understanding of what the Bible says. All people have been able to perfectly receive the Apostles original intent and that is why Christianity is so unified with no divisions or differences of opinions. Right?
NO.

It's because oral teachings and practices from multi cultures came in and interpreted the original intent of the apostles words.  

Hmmm, there is that interpret word that you just denied previously. Are you saying that people do actually interpret the original intent?

YES!!!!!

They interpret the original intent through their own viewpoint and place emphasis on their viewpoint.   This is why so many people believe Peter's dream to be about clean/unclean food when even Peter HIMSELF was trying to figure out what it meant -> Which later he told what God SHOWED HIM!

The horrible thing is, many folks will simply just say "it meant both".   Peter didn't say that.  Three times -> Three men -> God showed me that....
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #534 on: November 25, 2014, 01:06:08 PM »
I dunno, food coming down from heaven sure seems like a reference to food to me...
Okay.

Dreams never were interpreted in the scripture.
 :P
Oh yes, and Peter didn't try to FIGURE OUT what the dream meant.

Oh yes, and THREE "unclean/uncommon" people didn't show up.

Oh yes, and Peter did not say that "God has shown him that they were not uncommon or unclean".


It was about food.  Peter was just figuring it out but decided it was about food.   :P

I think you must have a short term memory. I never said this was just about food. I have consistently said it was about God santifying all things and making all things clean.  Food is included in that, but it isn't just about food.  You are trying to mock me for being reductionist and making this just about food, but the reality is you are doing the same thing and ignoring the larger picture and making the whole thing about three guys.  There is a reason it is in Scripture, so we can ALL learn from the incident.  It isn't just about three guys being cleansed, it is about all of creation being reconciled to God.

Peter said it was about the three guys (gentiles)!

I don't know how much clearer he could have been.  Not mocking you at all. I just can't understand why this is so tough.  There are clearly OTHER scriptures citing all foods being clean when received in Thanksgiving.  There are other scriptures that talk about some things are unclean to others and to them it is unclean.  There are other scriptures that say NOT TO OFFEND if somebody serves something that is unclean to you.

It's a gray area.

Do you appeal to the following foods:  Rat meat?  Dog?  Cat?  Mouse?

If so, they are clean to you in Thanksgiving.

For me personally, I find rats gross and filthy, Dogs are too cute and gross (eat poop), Cats I don't like them and there is just something about them where I don't want to eat them, and mice are nasty.   They are UNCLEAN to me.

It isn't tough at all, you have latched on to a 19th century teaching by a heretical group and it makes sense to you, so you run with it. I tend to be skeptical of teachings that arise 1800 years after the Church was founded, so I ignore such theories and hold to what the Church has taught throughout history. It is just two different ways of interpreting Scripture.  I will leave it to God which manner was His intent.

With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #535 on: November 25, 2014, 01:16:30 PM »
Do you follow all the OT laws or not? If not, why?
I'll jump on your question, but condensed.  Plz don't contort.

No.

I do not follow all the OT laws because many of them were overwritten.  Such as putting to death people for various sins.

I respect OT laws.  I try to follow what I can follow.  

The tattoo thing is simple.

Food seems like a gray area because we do hold certain foods as unclean -> like we don't want to eat a rat burger.  Some may see pork this way.   It's a gray area with gentiles because cultures will hold certain things as clean or unclean.   Like dog steaks here would be terrible.  Cow steaks in India would be taboo... etc.

But for tattoos, it's a very purposeful act.  You have to GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to get one.  Here in America, you typically would have to go to a tattoo parlor, pick out what you want or show a drawing, then go through the process & pay for it.  It's not like you just "happened upon it".    God told us not to get them in the OT.  While some people still do get them obviously they through Christ can achieve salvation.

Let me ask:: Do you LOVE God?   I mean really love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul?   I think we can follow the basis of OT law through the love of God.  I can't imagine in the OT God forbidding tattoos and in the NT your body is called "the temple of the Holy Spirit" and God wanting you to get tattoos.

It amazes me how many tattoo parlors are near bars, night clubs, liquor stores, and in shady areas of town.  (just an observation)

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Offline sakura95

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #536 on: November 25, 2014, 01:22:52 PM »
Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.

Americans don't find eating Dog meat "unclean". The reason is that many have a form of emotional attachment towards dogs. They are beyond livestock to us they are almost like our companions and we shower them with our love by petting them, taking them for walks, playing with them...etc. With such activities a Dog is beyond livestock. It has become somewhat of a "friend" and nobody would want to kill a friend for the sake of consumption in normal circumstances. Hence, Americans would typically think that eating dog meat is wrong out of compassion and disgust for killing their canine friends not because it is deemed unclean by God or is just "dirty". I mean dog saliva is cleaner than human saliva when you think about it.

Hot Dogs are also just mere minced meat encased by a membrane of the intestinal wall. People here would simply use "hot dogs" in relation to penises as a joke given the very similar shape it takes.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #537 on: November 25, 2014, 01:27:44 PM »
Do you follow all the OT laws or not? If not, why?
I'll jump on your question, but condensed.  Plz don't contort.

No.

I do not follow all the OT laws because many of them were overwritten.  Such as putting to death people for various sins.

I respect OT laws.  I try to follow what I can follow.  

The tattoo thing is simple.

Food seems like a gray area because we do hold certain foods as unclean -> like we don't want to eat a rat burger.  Some may see pork this way.   It's a gray area with gentiles because cultures will hold certain things as clean or unclean.   Like dog steaks here would be terrible.  Cow steaks in India would be taboo... etc.

But for tattoos, it's a very purposeful act.  You have to GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to get one.  Here in America, you typically would have to go to a tattoo parlor, pick out what you want or show a drawing, then go through the process & pay for it.  It's not like you just "happened upon it".    God told us not to get them in the OT.  While some people still do get them obviously they through Christ can achieve salvation.

Let me ask:: Do you LOVE God?   I mean really love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul?   I think we can follow the basis of OT law through the love of God.  I can't imagine in the OT God forbidding tattoos and in the NT your body is called "the temple of the Holy Spirit" and God wanting you to get tattoos.

It amazes me how many tattoo parlors are near bars, night clubs, liquor stores, and in shady areas of town.  (just an observation)


It sounds like you have a very arbitrary way of deciding what laws you do and do not follow.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #538 on: November 25, 2014, 01:28:31 PM »
Do you follow all the OT laws or not? If not, why?
I'll jump on your question, but condensed.  Plz don't contort.

No.

I do not follow all the OT laws because many of them were overwritten.  Such as putting to death people for various sins.

I respect OT laws.  I try to follow what I can follow.  

The tattoo thing is simple.

Food seems like a gray area because we do hold certain foods as unclean -> like we don't want to eat a rat burger.  Some may see pork this way.   It's a gray area with gentiles because cultures will hold certain things as clean or unclean.   Like dog steaks here would be terrible.  Cow steaks in India would be taboo... etc.

But for tattoos, it's a very purposeful act.  You have to GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to get one.  Here in America, you typically would have to go to a tattoo parlor, pick out what you want or show a drawing, then go through the process & pay for it.  It's not like you just "happened upon it".    God told us not to get them in the OT.  While some people still do get them obviously they through Christ can achieve salvation.

Let me ask:: Do you LOVE God?   I mean really love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul?   I think we can follow the basis of OT law through the love of God.  I can't imagine in the OT God forbidding tattoos and in the NT your body is called "the temple of the Holy Spirit" and God wanting you to get tattoos.

It amazes me how many tattoo parlors are near bars, night clubs, liquor stores, and in shady areas of town.  (just an observation)


It sounds like you have a very arbitrary way of deciding what laws you do and do not follow.

That's why I asked.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #539 on: November 25, 2014, 01:29:53 PM »
With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.
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