Poll

Is it proper for an Orthodox Christian to get a tattoo?

It's fine, nothing wrong with it.
42 (22.6%)
They can if they want, but I wouldn't.
27 (14.5%)
Only in some circumstances.
23 (12.4%)
I don't think it's proper, no.
38 (20.4%)
It is absolutely, positively sinful!
15 (8.1%)
I'm not sure.
37 (19.9%)
None of the above.
4 (2.2%)

Total Members Voted: 186

Author Topic: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos  (Read 137275 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #450 on: November 25, 2014, 12:38:47 AM »
What if it's a really modest tattoo?

The tattoo on my shoulder is a flower which can represent the Virgin Mary (which is why I chose it). I'm sure Yesh can find several issues with THAT tattoo.

Shoulder flesh.

Monastics appreciate shoulder flesh.  Haha, you won't ever recognize that.  Just with me.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #451 on: November 25, 2014, 12:40:20 AM »
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #452 on: November 25, 2014, 12:42:27 AM »
What if it's a really modest tattoo?
Then you only modestly burn in hell.

Ok, good.  I'm getting a little flower on my middle finger.
"If your finger offend thee, cut it off for it it better to enter into heaven with 9 fingers than to be cast into hell because of a flower tattoo on your middle finger."

Wait, if I cut off a finger because of a tattoo, is that considered additional mutilation of the body or an attempt to rid the body of mutiliation?  Perhaps Yesh has a Bible verse on that.  ;)

Is it causing you to sin?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #453 on: November 25, 2014, 12:46:52 AM »
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Mor keep reading your bible!  Keep reading after those verses and it will tell you what the dream was about!  It wasn't about clean foods.

Now the gray area -

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

I find dog unclean and I won't eat it.  As well as I find pork unclean and equally gross.  It's unclean to me.  
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 12:47:21 AM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #454 on: November 25, 2014, 12:50:17 AM »
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Mor keep reading your bible!  Keep reading after those verses and it will tell you what the dream was about!  It wasn't about clean foods.


But it's the plain words of God.  "What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  He said it three times.  How much clearer could he be?  Why should I believe your tradition of interpretation when God's word is so clear?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #455 on: November 25, 2014, 12:52:12 AM »
Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #456 on: November 25, 2014, 12:55:43 AM »
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Mor keep reading your bible!  Keep reading after those verses and it will tell you what the dream was about!  It wasn't about clean foods.


But it's the plain words of God.  "What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  He said it three times.  How much clearer could he be?  Why should I believe your tradition of interpretation when God's word is so clear?

It's not my tradition.  I don't know what you are talking about.  As I said keep reading.

Acts 10:16  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.


***See I just don't understand why people use this scripture to say "all foods are clean".  There are better ones.  This scripture didn't have to do with food at all.  The vision was symbolic.

There are other scriptures that talk about foods being clean, but they can also be unclean if deemed unclean.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 12:57:39 AM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #457 on: November 25, 2014, 12:59:32 AM »
"Rise, Peter, kill and eat," is not symbolic.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #458 on: November 25, 2014, 01:01:43 AM »
To brush in what I just posted about clean/unclean foods with thread topic, God did clearly say in the law that we are not to get tattoos.  

We are released from the law while there are also some gray areas and things in the law that was brought into Christianity.  

If you consider a perm mark on your body, the temple, something that God made you without.... Unnatural... Consider what he said in the law - it probably is a good idea to follow something so simple...

Getting a tattoo isn't something you just happen across.  It's a direct and purposeful act and decision to put markings on the temple God designed you with (perm markings).
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #459 on: November 25, 2014, 01:03:35 AM »
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Mor keep reading your bible!  Keep reading after those verses and it will tell you what the dream was about!  It wasn't about clean foods.


But it's the plain words of God.  "What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  He said it three times.  How much clearer could he be?  Why should I believe your tradition of interpretation when God's word is so clear?

It's not my tradition.  I don't know what you are talking about.  As I said keep reading.

Acts 10:16  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.


***See I just don't understand why people use this scripture to say "all foods are clean".  There are better ones.  This scripture didn't have to do with food at all.  The vision was symbolic.

There are other scriptures that talk about foods being clean, but they can also be unclean if deemed unclean.

"What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  It doesn't get clearer than that. 

You're making up stuff.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #460 on: November 25, 2014, 01:06:34 AM »
"Rise, Peter, kill and eat," is not symbolic.



Biro please read it in context with the full scriptures above.

Peter had a vision and he was trying to figure out what it meant.  It's clearly written.   Verse  28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The visitors came to him right after the vision, and God was showing him that the law of a Jew keeping company with one of another nation does not apply.  No man should be called common or unclean!

God was not talking about food, it was a symbolic vision.

There are other scriptures that talk about food being clean, but it was not Peter's vision (because Peter tried to figure out what it meant - later he stated plainly what it meant).  Those scriptures while clear, also indicate there are gray areas where things can remain unclean to people who see certain things as unclean.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #461 on: November 25, 2014, 01:09:57 AM »
Circumcision was not banned for instance, neither was people finding certain foods unclean.

Quote
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
Mor keep reading your bible!  Keep reading after those verses and it will tell you what the dream was about!  It wasn't about clean foods.


But it's the plain words of God.  "What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  He said it three times.  How much clearer could he be?  Why should I believe your tradition of interpretation when God's word is so clear?

It's not my tradition.  I don't know what you are talking about.  As I said keep reading.

Acts 10:16  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.


***See I just don't understand why people use this scripture to say "all foods are clean".  There are better ones.  This scripture didn't have to do with food at all.  The vision was symbolic.

There are other scriptures that talk about foods being clean, but they can also be unclean if deemed unclean.

"What God has cleansed, you must not call common."  It doesn't get clearer than that. 

You're making up stuff.   

Mor I really can't tell if you just trolling on me a bit or are serious.  Peter's dream was completely symbolic and in verse 28 he said that the dream meant he would not call any MAN unclean.  It's so clearly written.

It's Peter's words.

Unless you think God intended for Peter to eat the visitors.  :o
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Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #462 on: November 25, 2014, 01:13:36 AM »
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #463 on: November 25, 2014, 01:19:17 AM »
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If it's not symbolic then why did Peter try to figure out what it meant?
Also why did Peter tell what God showed him in verse 28?

Biro, you are not being serious.  For real?  I'm sorry I just can't hear sarcasm over text.   It's right there in black and white.  Just read it!  It's symbolic totally!   

If not, what did the verse in Acts 10:28 mean and when did God show him this?
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Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #464 on: November 25, 2014, 01:25:48 AM »
It is not symbolic.

The word 'symbolic' appears not once.

Also:

2 Peter 1:20

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Peter-1-20/

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #465 on: November 25, 2014, 01:26:45 AM »
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ?  I cited the scripture.
Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote
Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote
Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin.
"Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right?  Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it.   To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.
I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm pointing out your fallacious ideas and God hasn't brought the topic up to me, so no argument there. Since our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, have you deformed it by trimming your beard? And further, if there is a gray area, then why are you condemning brothers and sisters in Christ who have tattoos over something that is a gray area? Shouldn't you be more concerned about looking into the gray area of whether the cattle on your farm has been interbred? That has far more direct implications to you than someone elses tattoos.

Great example.  YES we watch for animals to not inbreed.  It weakens them, often creates genetic funkiness, and causes problems.  It's considered a no-no, and you can't register inbred animals.   While it is not the "law", it's good not to do it.  The benefits of following the law in this matter is great.   We can see a full reasoning behind this.   

A body, being the temple, we should see it the same way.  This doesn't compare with a beard - they grow back.  Tats are rather permanent (unless you are a more or less wealthier person who can have them removed).
I didn't say INBRED, I said INTERBRED. Interbred is when you have a bull that is one breed and a cow that is another breed. For example, Holstein cattle is an interbred breed where humans bred black and white cattle together in an attempt to maximize milk production.  The Jewish law forbids such acts. Any sort of artificial selection by using two different breeds is forbidden. You say this doesn't compare with a beard, but Scripture clearly says that it does. Who gives you the authority to say that since a beard grows back, the law can be ignored, but because tattoos are permanent, we have to follow that law? That seems to be a very selective manner of following the law.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #466 on: November 25, 2014, 01:29:38 AM »
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Biro, okay look.  I don't know what you've been learning.  Just read Acts 15.

"Men from Judea" wanted circumcision.
Verse 5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

They were talking about GENTILES, not Jews.  Pharisees were trying to circumcise the Gentiles.

Acts 15:23-24

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Do you see?

The torah mentions ***NOTHING*** about circumcising the gentiles at all.   Neither do the apostles.  The context of this chapter is about circumcision.

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.
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Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #467 on: November 25, 2014, 01:32:24 AM »
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Knew it.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #468 on: November 25, 2014, 01:32:33 AM »
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If it's not symbolic then why did Peter try to figure out what it meant?
Also why did Peter tell what God showed him in verse 28?

Biro, you are not being serious.  For real?  I'm sorry I just can't hear sarcasm over text.   It's right there in black and white.  Just read it!  It's symbolic totally!   

If not, what did the verse in Acts 10:28 mean and when did God show him this?

The vision shows to Peter that all things have been sanctified through Christ. Gentiles, food, everything. It has nothing to do with symbolism, everything is sanctified.
God bless!

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #469 on: November 25, 2014, 01:33:48 AM »
So is the consensus of the forum the following -


"God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to God."
"It doesn't matter if its in the bible."
"Tattoos are okay."
?

This isn't the EO church I remember.
I this is more like this:

"Yesh thinks God told us not to get tattoos."
"We don't have to listen to Yesh"
"It isn't actually in the Bible"
"I am more interested in my own self than what someone else puts on their body."

I'm curious why you say it is not in the bible. ?  I cited the scripture.
Ok, to clarify, there is a reference to it under the Law given to the Jews, which as St. Peter and the Council in Jerusalem determined, doesn't apply to us. Unless, of course, you want to condemn people for trimming their beards as well like says in the verse before.

Quote
Lev 19:27; "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. "

Or a bit earlier in the chapter where it condemns interbreeding cattle, sowing two kinds of seed in the field and mixing fabrics.

Quote
Lev 19:19; "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

Are you arguing with me or God?

The law to the Jews has a lot of intertwining with Christianity, more than you think, and more than what your church says.

Otherwise 1 John 3:4 would not apply and you could not sin.
"Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And just by the way, the council of Jerusalem - every time the word "law" was written, it didn't always mean the law of the Jews.

No, I am not saying we are under the law of the Jews, I am saying that there is a gray area.

You follow the 10 commandments right?  Yep, that's law.

The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it.   To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.
I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm pointing out your fallacious ideas and God hasn't brought the topic up to me, so no argument there. Since our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, have you deformed it by trimming your beard? And further, if there is a gray area, then why are you condemning brothers and sisters in Christ who have tattoos over something that is a gray area? Shouldn't you be more concerned about looking into the gray area of whether the cattle on your farm has been interbred? That has far more direct implications to you than someone elses tattoos.

Great example.  YES we watch for animals to not inbreed.  It weakens them, often creates genetic funkiness, and causes problems.  It's considered a no-no, and you can't register inbred animals.   While it is not the "law", it's good not to do it.  The benefits of following the law in this matter is great.   We can see a full reasoning behind this.   

A body, being the temple, we should see it the same way.  This doesn't compare with a beard - they grow back.  Tats are rather permanent (unless you are a more or less wealthier person who can have them removed).
I didn't say INBRED, I said INTERBRED. Interbred is when you have a bull that is one breed and a cow that is another breed. For example, Holstein cattle is an interbred breed where humans bred black and white cattle together in an attempt to maximize milk production.  The Jewish law forbids such acts. Any sort of artificial selection by using two different breeds is forbidden. You say this doesn't compare with a beard, but Scripture clearly says that it does. Who gives you the authority to say that since a beard grows back, the law can be ignored, but because tattoos are permanent, we have to follow that law? That seems to be a very selective manner of following the law.

What are you talking about, I never said that we were under the law, just that there are gray areas of the law with clean/unclean food.

***Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #470 on: November 25, 2014, 01:35:02 AM »
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If it's not symbolic then why did Peter try to figure out what it meant?
Also why did Peter tell what God showed him in verse 28?

Biro, you are not being serious.  For real?  I'm sorry I just can't hear sarcasm over text.   It's right there in black and white.  Just read it!  It's symbolic totally!   

If not, what did the verse in Acts 10:28 mean and when did God show him this?

The vision shows to Peter that all things have been sanctified through Christ. Gentiles, food, everything. It has nothing to do with symbolism, everything is sanctified.

The problem is Peter tells you HIS dream and what it meant!  Simply read it plain and simple!  It has nothing to do with food.  I can't believe you guys think this!!
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Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #471 on: November 25, 2014, 01:35:09 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #472 on: November 25, 2014, 01:36:34 AM »
We do not go by the Talmud.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #473 on: November 25, 2014, 01:38:38 AM »
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Knew it.

So what wouldn't waste your time?  Would you like me to believe that Peter's dream was about clean/unclean food and ignore exactly what he said about it?

I mean this in a non-cruel way, but do you not care about the scriptures at all and what Peter said?  I mean you are simply just ignoring it and closing your heart to HIS words.

Ignore me as the person who brought this to your attention as we disagree on a lot.  Please just read his own words about the vision.  It's right there!
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Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #474 on: November 25, 2014, 01:40:12 AM »
"Rise, Peter, kill and eat" is not symbolic.

Scripture is not open to private interpretation.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #475 on: November 25, 2014, 01:43:37 AM »
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If it's not symbolic then why did Peter try to figure out what it meant?
Also why did Peter tell what God showed him in verse 28?

Biro, you are not being serious.  For real?  I'm sorry I just can't hear sarcasm over text.   It's right there in black and white.  Just read it!  It's symbolic totally!  

If not, what did the verse in Acts 10:28 mean and when did God show him this?

The vision shows to Peter that all things have been sanctified through Christ. Gentiles, food, everything. It has nothing to do with symbolism, everything is sanctified.

The problem is Peter tells you HIS dream and what it meant!  Simply read it plain and simple!  It has nothing to do with food.  I can't believe you guys think this!!
The way you interpret things scare me. It is food. God says it is clean. It is not hard. Peter is wondering about the application of the dream. He is wondering why he received the dream. Once the men come, he recognizes why he received the dream when he did.  Are you seriously trying to deny the basic Christian teaching that Christ sanctified all things when He came? In what manner do you see a grey area here?  Where in the New Testament are people encouraged to continue to maintain the dietary laws? You are right that the dream was about people, but it was about more than that. It was about everything on earth. Otherwise, you fall into some weird gnostic belief of matter being bad.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 01:45:09 AM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #476 on: November 25, 2014, 01:44:49 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.
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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #477 on: November 25, 2014, 01:46:54 AM »
So basically your logic is

'I find it unacceptable and since there is a verse that says I do not have to like/do things if i find them PERSONALLY repugnant, that means I can apply that to all Christians, since clearly they should share my repugnance'


got it...
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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #478 on: November 25, 2014, 01:46:59 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
God bless!

Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #479 on: November 25, 2014, 01:47:12 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #480 on: November 25, 2014, 01:47:47 AM »
I did read it in context. Don't tell me what I did.

It is not symbolic.

Nevertheless, Acts 15:24 ought to be enough for you. It probably won't be, but I guess I like to waste my time.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

If it's not symbolic then why did Peter try to figure out what it meant?
Also why did Peter tell what God showed him in verse 28?

Biro, you are not being serious.  For real?  I'm sorry I just can't hear sarcasm over text.   It's right there in black and white.  Just read it!  It's symbolic totally!  

If not, what did the verse in Acts 10:28 mean and when did God show him this?

The vision shows to Peter that all things have been sanctified through Christ. Gentiles, food, everything. It has nothing to do with symbolism, everything is sanctified.

The problem is Peter tells you HIS dream and what it meant!  Simply read it plain and simple!  It has nothing to do with food.  I can't believe you guys think this!!
The way you interpret things scare me. It is food. God says it is clean. It is not hard. Peter is wondering about the application of the dream. He is wondering why he received the dream. Once the men come, he recognizes why he received the dream when he did.  Are you seriously trying to deny the basic Christian teaching that Christ sanctified all things when He came? In what manner do you see a grey area here?  Where in the New Testament are people encouraged to continue to maintain the dietary laws? You are right that the dream was about people, but it was about more than that. It was about everything on earth. Otherwise, you fall into some weird gnostic belief of matter being bad.

It was about PEOPLE.  Peter clearly said this.

I am not saying food isn't clean, I'm saying it is a New Testament teaching  AGAIN I quote:
Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

You are right, it was a release from us not abiding with everyone in the world as Christians.  It had nothing to do with food.  Food was *released* elsewhere, unless somebody finds something unclean.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #481 on: November 25, 2014, 01:50:37 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints in the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
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Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #482 on: November 25, 2014, 01:51:32 AM »
Why do you ignore the first half of that verse?

Where do you find the word 'symbolic' in the vision?

 ???

Again, we do not follow the Talmud.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #483 on: November 25, 2014, 01:52:51 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #484 on: November 25, 2014, 01:54:07 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints in the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
The prohibition on interbreeding is in the Torah. It is in the same chapter as the one that talks about not putting markings on ones body. If you hold one up as being obligatory on us, you should hold up the other one.
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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #485 on: November 25, 2014, 01:55:37 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
So really, this whole argument was a sly way of telling us that you personally find tattoos unclean and therefore you cannot get one, but there is nothing inherently unclean about them?  I find that interpretation of your beliefs hard to believe given your prior posts.
God bless!

Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #486 on: November 25, 2014, 01:57:11 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  

My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #487 on: November 25, 2014, 02:01:01 AM »
Why do you ignore the first half of that verse?

Where do you find the word 'symbolic' in the vision?

 ???

Again, we do not follow the Talmud.

I know we don't follow the Talmud.

Peter tried to determine what the dream meant.

(Consider other scriptures & dream interpretations in the bible)

Peter directly cited in verse 28 what the dream meant, and quoted what God told him of the animals to the men.

You have to understand Jewish law to understand this verse, but Peter even cites this and puts the dream into context.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

**God hath shewed me**


Okay backing up:  Acts 10
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Who came?

19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.




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Offline biro

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #488 on: November 25, 2014, 02:03:53 AM »
You're the one who referred to the Talmud. Which means nothing to us.

Do you enjoy being incoherent?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #489 on: November 25, 2014, 02:05:54 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints n the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
The prohibition on interbreeding is in the Torah. It is in the same chapter as the one that talks about not putting markings on ones body. If you hold one up as being obligatory on us, you should hold up the other one.

You do know I misread you originally.  For the record, I don't interbred my animals and am rid of cattle anyway.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #490 on: November 25, 2014, 02:06:39 AM »
You're the one who referred to the Talmud. Which means nothing to us.

Do you enjoy being incoherent?

What are you talking about?  I asked if he found that info in Torah or Talmud law.  He responded Torah.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #491 on: November 25, 2014, 02:08:48 AM »
Quote
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
This is what God said. It is LITERALLY God's words.  The question you must ask yourself is, has God cleansed food? What matter has God not cleansed? When Christ came to reconcile the world to God, what physical matter was exempted from that cleansing?  When you can show me the physical matter that God has not cleansed, then I will consider further your personal interpretation on this passage.
God bless!

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #492 on: November 25, 2014, 02:09:46 AM »
You're the one who referred to the Talmud. Which means nothing to us.

Do you enjoy being incoherent?

What are you talking about?  I asked if he found that info in Torah or Talmud law.  He responded Torah.

You're not Jewish.

Again, it does not matter what it says in the Talmud.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #493 on: November 25, 2014, 02:10:01 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam
*Jewish (Talmud barely beginning *barely* in Hosea but written well after Christ) or Torah law***   See oral vs. Torah Jews would respect, but they didn't have Talmud nearly established in Christ's day.

What the hell does this even mean?


It means that Jewish people today go off two sets of laws.
1. Torah law.
2. Oral law. 

Torah law is the first five books of the bible.
Oral law is the Talmud, which came about way after Jesus was here (but has hints n the book of Hosea of being established).

So in the persons example of interbreeding (which I over-read too fast as inbred), I asked if it was Torah law or Oral law.   At the time of Christ and shortly thereafter, Talmudic law was lesser "recognized".
The prohibition on interbreeding is in the Torah. It is in the same chapter as the one that talks about not putting markings on ones body. If you hold one up as being obligatory on us, you should hold up the other one.

You do know I misread you originally.  For the record, I don't interbred my animals and am rid of cattle anyway.

And how about the beard trimming which is strictly prohibited in the verse before the markings verse?
God bless!

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos
« Reply #494 on: November 25, 2014, 02:15:15 AM »
Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Gray areas exist on clean/unclean food.

No, they do not.

Eyes closed, ears plugged.  "They don't because they don't" - "Even if they do, they still don't".

Unfortunately, the scriptures DO NOT teach this, but they teach that if certain things are unclean to a person, it is unclean to them.

Here it is - this is KJV.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

If you do not believe this then
1) You don't care
and/or
2) You ignore the scriptures

OR - you can please explain Romans 14:14 to me.

So if I determine dog to be an unclean animal to eat (which I do), I am not going to eat it.  If I give testimony of Jesus Christ to those who eat dog and find it perfectly acceptable, then I must accept and not cause offense.   It's simple stuff for the ministry of Christ.

OR 3) Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

YES!

Thank you!
Paul by his own admission said there is nothing unclean to him, and to him that esteemeth something to be unclean, to HIM it is unclean.

It's all I'm saying.  Right out of the bible!  
So really, this whole argument was a sly way of telling us that you personally find tattoos unclean and therefore you cannot get one, but there is nothing inherently unclean about them?  I find that interpretation of your beliefs hard to believe given your prior posts.

Not exactly.

The whole basis of my argument against tattoos is that a person has to go out of their way to get one.  You have to purposely set out, find a design, and get ink pierced into your skin.  There is *no* real reason to do this.  Food on the other hand, is something we must all have to live.  Tattoos are not.

Tattoos are purpose act that a person sets out to do, usually for no reason other than style.  If they offended God in the Old Testament and his people not to get a tattoo - and later refers to your body as the Holy temple, then it's probably NOT a good thing to do.

So once again, I have a plethora of links ready for you.

Oh yes, Eastern Orthodox / OO sources - but I'll start with this one.
http://www.stgeorgehermitage.org/tattoos.html

There is a HUGE problem on this forum.  Orthodox Christians generally don't know their own faith.

It's both ironic, awkward, and amusing at the same time to watch so many argue with me (just like in the famous modesty thread), just to have me then start quoting Orthodox sources and show you that MY position backs an Orthodox viewpoint.

So as the argument (hopefully does not continue), I'll just continue to cite Orthodox sources and let all of you fight me with your opinion and let me know how "unorthodox" I am.
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