Author Topic: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"  (Read 1801 times)

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« on: February 02, 2015, 05:32:51 AM »
I was wondering what opinions I could find about this. John Paul II called on St. John the Baptist to "protect Islam" in Jordan.

I couldn't fathom a pre-schism Pope invoking St. Athanasius to "protect Arianism" or St. Augustine to "protect Pelagianism", yet Islam teaches the antithesis of what St. John the Baptist's mission was, to proclaim the advent of the Incarnate God. Islam rejects that God can become incarnate (Surah 112) and that Christ was crucified (4:157), among other things. Not to mention the many crimes committed by Muslims in the name of Islam throughout history, until today, also don't bode well to me if you're calling for this ideology's protection.

I cannot see how this isn't on the same level as that, and I have been pondering it recently, and I've been wondering what people here think about his remarks.

Considering that Pope John Paul II is now a Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, this sort of statement is quite authoritative, coming from a Pope, a Saint and having some basis in Vatican II (Lumen Gentium 16).

If there are any Roman Catholics, I'd like to hear some thoughts about this. This is a significant obstacle for me in considering the RC Church. Not the most significant mind you, but it's up there. Anyone else is free to comment also.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 05:36:24 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Online Volnutt

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 06:33:42 AM »
Didn't people already go over this in a recent thread?
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2015, 08:54:08 AM »
Yes, this was all done previously.

Or maybe he wanted to not have them totally exterminated as many of us here would wish to do?
Or one of those Christian things I've heard about, like praying for one's enemy?

Lord, have mercy.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 09:12:54 AM »
Yes, this was all done previously.

Or maybe he wanted to not have them totally exterminated as many of us here would wish to do?
Or one of those Christian things I've heard about, like praying for one's enemy?

Lord, have mercy.

Did you read what I posted?

Quote
I couldn't fathom a pre-schism Pope invoking St. Athanasius to "protect Arianism" or St. Augustine to "protect Pelagianism", yet Islam teaches the antithesis of what St. John the Baptist's mission was, to proclaim the advent of the Incarnate God. Islam rejects that God can become incarnate (Surah 112) and that Christ was crucified (4:157), among other things. Not to mention the many crimes committed by Muslims in the name of Islam throughout history, until today, also don't bode well to me if you're calling for this ideology's protection.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2015, 09:47:34 AM »
Yes, this was all done previously.

Or maybe he wanted to not have them totally exterminated as many of us here would wish to do?
Or one of those Christian things I've heard about, like praying for one's enemy?

Lord, have mercy.

Did you read what I posted?

Quote
I couldn't fathom a pre-schism Pope invoking St. Athanasius to "protect Arianism" or St. Augustine to "protect Pelagianism", yet Islam teaches the antithesis of what St. John the Baptist's mission was, to proclaim the advent of the Incarnate God. Islam rejects that God can become incarnate (Surah 112) and that Christ was crucified (4:157), among other things. Not to mention the many crimes committed by Muslims in the name of Islam throughout history, until today, also don't bode well to me if you're calling for this ideology's protection.

Maybe, maybe not I read what you posted! How should I know? I read and obviously did not understand to your satisfaction. Terrible lot of theology in the above!
Wasn't Athanasius directly relative to Arianism?  Or Augustine to Pelagianism? How is John The Baptist related to Islam? Are you conflating geography and history?
You do not wish to exterminate those Mohammedans? Or is it you do not wish to pray for your enemies?
No longer Catholic I cannot respond how that Pope did that thing. I am the wrong tree to bark up to. Sorry.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 10:09:21 AM »
Yes, this was all done previously.

Or maybe he wanted to not have them totally exterminated as many of us here would wish to do?
Or one of those Christian things I've heard about, like praying for one's enemy?

Lord, have mercy.

Did you read what I posted?

Quote
I couldn't fathom a pre-schism Pope invoking St. Athanasius to "protect Arianism" or St. Augustine to "protect Pelagianism", yet Islam teaches the antithesis of what St. John the Baptist's mission was, to proclaim the advent of the Incarnate God. Islam rejects that God can become incarnate (Surah 112) and that Christ was crucified (4:157), among other things. Not to mention the many crimes committed by Muslims in the name of Islam throughout history, until today, also don't bode well to me if you're calling for this ideology's protection.

Maybe, maybe not I read what you posted! How should I know? I read and obviously did not understand to your satisfaction. Terrible lot of theology in the above!
Wasn't Athanasius directly relative to Arianism?  Or Augustine to Pelagianism? How is John The Baptist related to Islam? Are you conflating geography and history?
You do not wish to exterminate those Mohammedans? Or is it you do not wish to pray for your enemies?
No longer Catholic I cannot respond how that Pope did that thing. I am the wrong tree to bark up to. Sorry.

I already gave you the explanation. You don't read it. John the Baptist is the precursor to the INCARNATION of GOD in the FLESH. Islam is a REJECTION of that. In the same way Arianism is a REJECTION of the Holy Trinity as defined by the Fathers and Nicaea. They are antithetical to each other.

I don't want to "exterminate" those Mohammadans. That's extremely offensive to me because the majority of my friends and peers throughout my life have been Muslims and Arabs, so if you don't want this to get personal you'd better back off. The West is far more worthy of being nuked than Mecca is. But I'm not here to get into politics, I want an answer to my question.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 10:10:25 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2015, 10:24:55 AM »
My mom gave me her local Catholic bulletin from the parish (for whatever reason) and there was an editorial section from the priest. He said that he had many parishioners asking about Islam since the attacks in Paris. He used the occasion to tell them that it is a peaceful religion that emphasizes worship in the one true God, and the way it was worded was basically saying that the God and religion are the same. I just couldn't believe it was such a missed opportunity, and it really struck me as a betrayal to give the people no warning of it at all, but just a kind of universalist wash.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2015, 11:16:35 AM »
Sorry, I can't fathom the saints asking to protect heresies. Its the same way when I see Orthodox Christians posting about how this-or-that person became a Christian by reciting the magic prayer. Exchanging one lie for another isnt something Ill celebrate.

In the same spirit, anyone asking for the protection of Islam will never get my respect. THat being said, what I CAN get behind is someone praying for Muslims. Protect the people, not the lie.

PP
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 11:30:19 AM »
Sorry, I can't fathom the saints asking to protect heresies. Its the same way when I see Orthodox Christians posting about how this-or-that person became a Christian by reciting the magic prayer. Exchanging one lie for another isnt something Ill celebrate.

In the same spirit, anyone asking for the protection of Islam will never get my respect. THat being said, what I CAN get behind is someone praying for Muslims. Protect the people, not the lie.

PP

It seems increasingly common to see religion as proxy for ethnicity, i.e. something you're born with, that you can't help and that you can't be expected to change. So attacks on a religion strike many as equivalent to attacks on an ethnic group, which is why e.g. critiques of Islam frequently get called "racist".

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2015, 11:33:27 AM »
Yes, this was all done previously.

Or maybe he wanted to not have them totally exterminated as many of us here would wish to do?
Or one of those Christian things I've heard about, like praying for one's enemy?

Lord, have mercy.

Did you read what I posted?

Quote
I couldn't fathom a pre-schism Pope invoking St. Athanasius to "protect Arianism" or St. Augustine to "protect Pelagianism", yet Islam teaches the antithesis of what St. John the Baptist's mission was, to proclaim the advent of the Incarnate God. Islam rejects that God can become incarnate (Surah 112) and that Christ was crucified (4:157), among other things. Not to mention the many crimes committed by Muslims in the name of Islam throughout history, until today, also don't bode well to me if you're calling for this ideology's protection.

Maybe, maybe not I read what you posted! How should I know? I read and obviously did not understand to your satisfaction. Terrible lot of theology in the above!
Wasn't Athanasius directly relative to Arianism?  Or Augustine to Pelagianism? How is John The Baptist related to Islam? Are you conflating geography and history?
You do not wish to exterminate those Mohammedans? Or is it you do not wish to pray for your enemies?
No longer Catholic I cannot respond how that Pope did that thing. I am the wrong tree to bark up to. Sorry.

I already gave you the explanation. You don't read it. John the Baptist is the precursor to the INCARNATION of GOD in the FLESH. Islam is a REJECTION of that. In the same way Arianism is a REJECTION of the Holy Trinity as defined by the Fathers and Nicaea. They are antithetical to each other.

I don't want to "exterminate" those Mohammadans. That's extremely offensive to me because the majority of my friends and peers throughout my life have been Muslims and Arabs, so if you don't want this to get personal you'd better back off. The West is far more worthy of being nuked than Mecca is. But I'm not here to get into politics, I want an answer to my question.

The first question mark I saw was yours to me, which is "Did you read my post?" Prior to that there is no question, just a request for comments.
You are correct, that I did not read the fine print and theology that was in your original post regarding John the Baptist proclaiming the Incarnate God. I kind of know that.
I focused more on your issue of how the Pope could call for protection of Islam in Jordan with my response.

Our knickers get knotted when we read of Mohammedans killing innocents as yours get when the mention of totally ridding ourselves of them. We may be mirror images of that passion, friends or no.
It serves none for you to tell another to "back off" because of both your passions, your friendships, nor the passions of others done in response to such from either faction. Shutting down conversation or exchange serve no one, but if it enflames our addictions to sin, then cooling off, not shutting off such exchanges is in order.

Two more things. What answer to your query regarding how a Pope can do something antithetical, as your paradigm has been set up, would satisfy you? Can you conceive at all such an answer or is it a rhetorical question? or merely stated as a backdrop to an agenda you've schemed out?
The other, as far as ridding ourselves of Mecca or The West and who has more justification, then all can go to hell as well as the rest of mankind, for the way we treat each other.
IOW, there is "worthiness" in being nuked or saved.

Lord, have mercy.


Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2015, 11:38:41 AM »
Sorry, I can't fathom the saints asking to protect heresies. Its the same way when I see Orthodox Christians posting about how this-or-that person became a Christian by reciting the magic prayer. Exchanging one lie for another isnt something Ill celebrate.

In the same spirit, anyone asking for the protection of Islam will never get my respect. THat being said, what I CAN get behind is someone praying for Muslims. Protect the people, not the lie.

PP

It seems increasingly common to see religion as proxy for ethnicity, i.e. something you're born with, that you can't help and that you can't be expected to change. So attacks on a religion strike many as equivalent to attacks on an ethnic group, which is why e.g. critiques of Islam frequently get called "racist".

Of late the calling of another "racist" is mostly used to shut down conversations. It is a pejorative term now and changing the argument by going ad hominem is done quickly by that term.
Years ago the term "discriminate" was employed to do the same. Telling someone that they "discriminate" or they were a "discriminator" was tantamount to a racial epithet of the worst sort.
People woke up, by and large, to that method of changing the topic or shutting down the speaker.
It was rhetorical in that sense. So use care.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2015, 11:44:09 AM »
Sorry, I can't fathom the saints asking to protect heresies. Its the same way when I see Orthodox Christians posting about how this-or-that person became a Christian by reciting the magic prayer. Exchanging one lie for another isnt something Ill celebrate.

In the same spirit, anyone asking for the protection of Islam will never get my respect. THat being said, what I CAN get behind is someone praying for Muslims. Protect the people, not the lie.

PP

It seems increasingly common to see religion as proxy for ethnicity, i.e. something you're born with, that you can't help and that you can't be expected to change. So attacks on a religion strike many as equivalent to attacks on an ethnic group, which is why e.g. critiques of Islam frequently get called "racist".

Of late the calling of another "racist" is mostly used to shut down conversations. It is a pejorative term now and changing the argument by going ad hominem is done quickly by that term.
Years ago the term "discriminate" was employed to do the same. Telling someone that they "discriminate" or they were a "discriminator" was tantamount to a racial epithet of the worst sort.
People woke up, by and large, to that method of changing the topic or shutting down the speaker.
It was rhetorical in that sense. So use care.
Nah. The word changed, but the game's the same.

PP
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2015, 11:56:12 AM »
Yes, this was all done previously.

Or maybe he wanted to not have them totally exterminated as many of us here would wish to do?
Or one of those Christian things I've heard about, like praying for one's enemy?

Lord, have mercy.

Did you read what I posted?

Quote
I couldn't fathom a pre-schism Pope invoking St. Athanasius to "protect Arianism" or St. Augustine to "protect Pelagianism", yet Islam teaches the antithesis of what St. John the Baptist's mission was, to proclaim the advent of the Incarnate God. Islam rejects that God can become incarnate (Surah 112) and that Christ was crucified (4:157), among other things. Not to mention the many crimes committed by Muslims in the name of Islam throughout history, until today, also don't bode well to me if you're calling for this ideology's protection.

Maybe, maybe not I read what you posted! How should I know? I read and obviously did not understand to your satisfaction. Terrible lot of theology in the above!
Wasn't Athanasius directly relative to Arianism?  Or Augustine to Pelagianism? How is John The Baptist related to Islam? Are you conflating geography and history?
You do not wish to exterminate those Mohammedans? Or is it you do not wish to pray for your enemies?
No longer Catholic I cannot respond how that Pope did that thing. I am the wrong tree to bark up to. Sorry.

I already gave you the explanation. You don't read it. John the Baptist is the precursor to the INCARNATION of GOD in the FLESH. Islam is a REJECTION of that. In the same way Arianism is a REJECTION of the Holy Trinity as defined by the Fathers and Nicaea. They are antithetical to each other.

I don't want to "exterminate" those Mohammadans. That's extremely offensive to me because the majority of my friends and peers throughout my life have been Muslims and Arabs, so if you don't want this to get personal you'd better back off. The West is far more worthy of being nuked than Mecca is. But I'm not here to get into politics, I want an answer to my question.

The first question mark I saw was yours to me, which is "Did you read my post?" Prior to that there is no question, just a request for comments.
You are correct, that I did not read the fine print and theology that was in your original post regarding John the Baptist proclaiming the Incarnate God. I kind of know that.
I focused more on your issue of how the Pope could call for protection of Islam in Jordan with my response.

Our knickers get knotted when we read of Mohammedans killing innocents as yours get when the mention of totally ridding ourselves of them. We may be mirror images of that passion, friends or no.
It serves none for you to tell another to "back off" because of both your passions, your friendships, nor the passions of others done in response to such from either faction. Shutting down conversation or exchange serve no one, but if it enflames our addictions to sin, then cooling off, not shutting off such exchanges is in order.

Two more things. What answer to your query regarding how a Pope can do something antithetical, as your paradigm has been set up, would satisfy you? Can you conceive at all such an answer or is it a rhetorical question? or merely stated as a backdrop to an agenda you've schemed out?
The other, as far as ridding ourselves of Mecca or The West and who has more justification, then all can go to hell as well as the rest of mankind, for the way we treat each other.
IOW, there is "worthiness" in being nuked or saved.

Lord, have mercy.

I don't know what answer would satisfy me, I just thought I'd ask a question that I had my mind on.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2015, 12:45:20 PM »
I was wondering what opinions I could find about this. John Paul II called on St. John the Baptist to "protect Islam" in Jordan.

I couldn't fathom a pre-schism Pope invoking St. Athanasius to "protect Arianism" or St. Augustine to "protect Pelagianism", yet Islam teaches the antithesis of what St. John the Baptist's mission was, to proclaim the advent of the Incarnate God. Islam rejects that God can become incarnate (Surah 112) and that Christ was crucified (4:157), among other things. Not to mention the many crimes committed by Muslims in the name of Islam throughout history, until today, also don't bode well to me if you're calling for this ideology's protection.

I cannot see how this isn't on the same level as that, and I have been pondering it recently, and I've been wondering what people here think about his remarks.

Considering that Pope John Paul II is now a Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, this sort of statement is quite authoritative, coming from a Pope, a Saint and having some basis in Vatican II (Lumen Gentium 16).

If there are any Roman Catholics, I'd like to hear some thoughts about this. This is a significant obstacle for me in considering the RC Church. Not the most significant mind you, but it's up there. Anyone else is free to comment also.

I would start by saying that I am very much a "wavering Catholic" these days, but here we go. I think it's wrong to say that the statement was "authoritative" in any strict sense, coming as it did in an off-the-cuff prayer at the end of a good-bye speech. Charitably, I would interpret it as an unfortunate phrasing; perhaps he meant it in the sense of "protect Muslims." That's fine. Of course, the late Pontiff was a polyglot and fluent in English, so I have little doubt he was well aware of the difference between "Islam" and "Muslim."

What to make of it ultimately? I don't know. I can't see any pope before the 1960s, much less before the schism, making such statements. The recent popes have taken the "let's try being nice to non-Catholics" approach pretty far at times, and they seem pretty much set on parroting the "Islam is a peaceful religion" line whenever news of the latest atrocities hit the wires. While Pope John Paul was pretty conservative/traditional on moral issues, he said many things that sounded nigh-universalist with respect to non-Christian religions. I understand the motivation, but it is an error.

I think there is a dangerous cult of personality surrounding the Pope for the last century to century and a half. It is particularly acute in the case of John Paul II, and I think we are well on that way with Pope Francis. Every utterance that falls from their lips is treated like a divine oracle without any consideration of whether it coheres with the traditional teaching of the Roman Church, or even Christianity in general. "The Pope said it, I must believe it!" The fact that the Roman Church is bent on canonizing everyone associated with Vatican II is alarming as well; the beatification of Paul VI has just about pushed me overboard.
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and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

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Offline wgw

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2015, 03:43:12 PM »
Well, we are supposed to bless who persecute us.  Also, correct me if I'm wrong but Jordan is a relative safe haven for Christians in the Middle East; one could charitably/hopefully interpret John Paul II as praying that the peaceful brand of Jordanian Islam be protected from radicalization.

I think we should all pray for the Islamic State, that God will move their hearts to seek repentance.  We've seen homesick Jihadis Return to Europe and be arrested.  If that continues and if they're safely monitored by the European police ISIL could well lose force strength.  I also pray for the safety of non violent minority forms of Islam who are killed alongside Christians by ISIS such as Alevis and various Sufi sects.  Many of these have explicitly renounced violence and engage in rituals which ISIS views as unacceptable innovations, for example, the Mevlevi, or Whirling Dervishes, many of whom lived in Aleppo.  I saw them on Peter Owen Jones fantastic documentary series Around the Wolrd in 80 Days and I pray they're still alive.

One thing most middle Eastern religions have for self defence that is forbidden to Christians is tarqiyya, or dissimulation.  This is a formal doctrine of Shia Islam and most of the minority faiths in the Middle East, that in danger, they can renounce their faith and pretend to be a different religion.   Christians who are persecuted can't deny their faith but must be prepared to receive the crown of martyrdom.  Martyrdom consists of being beheaded for being Christian, as St. Paul was, or being crucified, as Ss. Andrew and Peter were; I've heard reports of the latter occurring to Christians in the Islamic State and of course the beheading is famous; it does not consist in dying in combat or worse, in perfidious suicide attacks like those of the homicide bombers.

You know it really sickens me how European Muslims who grew up in the comforts of Western Civilization abandoned it and the luxuries they had been afforded to go kill people, and for many months Turkey just let them across the border.  But we need to pray for them.  And since proselytization is still legal and safe in Europe, we need to launch loving evangelism efforts to convert them, before it becomes illegal due to an Islamic majority population or other political factors.

Offline mike

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2015, 03:53:50 PM »
Better turban than... Or how was that?
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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2015, 04:30:09 PM »
"One thing most middle Eastern religions have for self defence that is forbidden to Christians is tarqiyya"

It's actually called taqiyya or taqiyah.  After spending the last few years living in the Middle East, you learn this is more than just a casual phrase regarding the Islamic faith. While it is predominantly a concept of "lying" about one's faith to avoid persecution or death, it's also included in many other areas as well, and in a broad form covers anything Islam considers blasphemous or compulsive against Islam.  You find that this same type of lying or falsehoods are acceptable under the guise of taqiyya in business dealings or everyday life if the person being lied to is kafir (non believer).

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2015, 05:43:42 PM »
Better turban than... Or how was that?

Ouch.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2015, 05:57:43 PM »
I suppose I am picking a fight SO,
many here call for martyrdom and I can understand that a BIT.
Does Orthodoxy allow for an alternative, such as fighting back?
I am familiar with the 'just war' from the West. Anything from The East?

It's just I get tired of the "martyrdom" calling as it is easy to sit inside and do so. The battlefield is another matter.
And I pray for the Middle East as well as the Slavic countries suffering violence as well.
But can one point to a justified way that may be considered, outside of my murderous heart?

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2015, 07:29:10 PM »
"One thing most middle Eastern religions have for self defence that is forbidden to Christians is tarqiyya"

It's actually called taqiyya or taqiyah.  After spending the last few years living in the Middle East, you learn this is more than just a casual phrase regarding the Islamic faith. While it is predominantly a concept of "lying" about one's faith to avoid persecution or death, it's also included in many other areas as well, and in a broad form covers anything Islam considers blasphemous or compulsive against Islam.  You find that this same type of lying or falsehoods are acceptable under the guise of taqiyya in business dealings or everyday life if the person being lied to is kafir (non believer).

Shia Islam and its offshoots (Yezidism and Druzism in particular) all have this, but Sunni Islam doesn't, and that's one reason why fundamentalist Sunnis hate Shiites so much (they see them as double-dealing, untrustworthy tricksters). I've read Roxana Saberi's Between Two Worlds and it explores the extent to which the practice of taqiyya has shaped Iranian culture and government. Although to be fair, other non-Islamic societies (Russia!) have similar characteristics, although in those cases it's probably just the result of living under autocratic governments for so long.

While taqiyya per se is not allowed to Christians, there is a more restrictive framework known as mental reservation which was elaborated by medieval Roman Catholic theologians, based on several patristic and biblical sources (such as an incident from the life of St. Athanasius, and one from Abraham's life). Not sure to what extent (if at all) these ideas are embraced by the Orthodox, though. The Protestants rejected mental reservation entirely (and objection to it forms a huge part of historical Protestant anti-Catholic polemics, in Chick Tracts and "know-nothingism", for example). They probably went too far, but then again, Rome probably did, too. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2015, 07:31:58 PM »
I suppose I am picking a fight SO,
many here call for martyrdom and I can understand that a BIT.
Does Orthodoxy allow for an alternative, such as fighting back?
I am familiar with the 'just war' from the West. Anything from The East?

It's just I get tired of the "martyrdom" calling as it is easy to sit inside and do so. The battlefield is another matter.
And I pray for the Middle East as well as the Slavic countries suffering violence as well.
But can one point to a justified way that may be considered, outside of my murderous heart?

Well, one option is "shaking the dust off your feet"; I. e., proactively avoiding any situation where you might experience persecution, which could involve physically moving to another place, or just keeping a low profile socially. But this might not always be practical, or effective.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2015, 07:41:14 PM »
I suppose I am picking a fight SO,
many here call for martyrdom and I can understand that a BIT.
Does Orthodoxy allow for an alternative, such as fighting back?
I am familiar with the 'just war' from the West. Anything from The East?

It's just I get tired of the "martyrdom" calling as it is easy to sit inside and do so. The battlefield is another matter.
And I pray for the Middle East as well as the Slavic countries suffering violence as well.
But can one point to a justified way that may be considered, outside of my murderous heart?

Your point is valid.
But........

Well, one option is "shaking the dust off your feet"; I. e., proactively avoiding any situation where you might experience persecution, which could involve physically moving to another place, or just keeping a low profile socially. But this might not always be practical, or effective.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2015, 08:13:57 PM »
It's always possible that he misspoke and meant to say "Muslims" rather than Islam, in which case there wouldn't really be anything wrong with it since he would just have been talking about them as human beings, rather than their religion.

Does anyone know if he was questioned or asked about this remark at a later date? And if so, did he recant it? Or explain that it was misstatement? Or did he double-down and try to defend it? Surely at some point someone would have asked him to explain a remark like that.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 08:14:21 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2015, 09:16:56 PM »
I too have trouble with that, as I do with him kissing the Qur'an--the book responsible for countless Christian deaths, enslavements, and suffering. What troubles me is that "Islam" seems to refer to the religion itself, which is clearly something Christians cannot agree with or accept. I could never fathom the pre-schism saints praying for Arianism or Nestorianism.

It would be different if he said "for the Islamic body of believers" or "for Muhammed/for Muslims worldwide," in which case, it would be a prayer for the persons and their salvation--something I CAN see the pre-schism saints doing for heretics--opposed to the religion itself which is antithetical to Christian teaching.

The question I'd ask is if this Pope by using the term "Islam" meant the religion itself, or if he meant the Islamic body of believers. It sounds like he meant the former--which I think is unacceptable--but perhaps we should give him the benefit of the doubt as maybe he did just mean the latter.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Calling on the Saints to "protect Islam"
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2015, 10:14:21 PM »
"One thing most middle Eastern religions have for self defence that is forbidden to Christians is tarqiyya"

It's actually called taqiyya or taqiyah.  After spending the last few years living in the Middle East, you learn this is more than just a casual phrase regarding the Islamic faith. While it is predominantly a concept of "lying" about one's faith to avoid persecution or death, it's also included in many other areas as well, and in a broad form covers anything Islam considers blasphemous or compulsive against Islam.  You find that this same type of lying or falsehoods are acceptable under the guise of taqiyya in business dealings or everyday life if the person being lied to is kafir (non believer).

Shia Islam and its offshoots (Yezidism and Druzism in particular) all have this, but Sunni Islam doesn't,
and that's one reason why fundamentalist Sunnis hate Shiites so much (they see them as double-dealing, untrustworthy tricksters). I've read Roxana Saberi's Between Two Worlds and it explores the extent to which the practice of taqiyya has shaped Iranian culture and government. Although to be fair, other non-Islamic societies (Russia!) have similar characteristics, although in those cases it's probably just the result of living under autocratic governments for so long.

While taqiyya per se is not allowed to Christians, there is a more restrictive framework known as mental reservation which was elaborated by medieval Roman Catholic theologians, based on several patristic and biblical sources (such as an incident from the life of St. Athanasius, and one from Abraham's life). Not sure to what extent (if at all) these ideas are embraced by the Orthodox, though. The Protestants rejected mental reservation entirely (and objection to it forms a huge part of historical Protestant anti-Catholic polemics, in Chick Tracts and "know-nothingism", for example). They probably went too far, but then again, Rome probably did, too. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

"Those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The TUQYAH is allowed until the Day of Resurrection."

It was narrated from Umm Kalthum Bint ‘Uqbah that she heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say:“He is not a liar who reconciles between people and narrates something good or says something good.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhari, 2546; Muslim, 2605)

It was narrated that Asma’ Bint Yazeed said:“The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:‘It is not permissible to tell lies except in three (cases): when a man speaks to his wife in a way to please her; lying in war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1939)

This hadeeth was classed as hasan by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jami’, 7723

Taqiyah is a doctrine embraced by both sects, Shi'ites just happen to have been in the historical circumstances with which to utilize it.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 10:20:22 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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