OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 25, 2014, 12:22:15 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Touching the priests vestments  (Read 3268 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« on: December 27, 2009, 06:54:04 PM »

I've heard that this is commonplace in Orthodoxy (especially during the great entrance) when the priest passes by to touch his vestments, however I've noticed that no one at our Cathedral does it!  Are there any general etiquette rules about how/when/where this is to be done? Also, what is the usual explanation for why this is done?

Also, we have typically 3 priests that walk in the great entrance.  If I were to touch one's vestments, would it be best to touch the vestments of all three, or would just the Dean suffice?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 06:56:36 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,618


Teaching on the mountain


« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2009, 07:08:00 PM »

Sometimes it can be dangerous for the priest, if he's not unaware and not expecting it, holding the chalice and the paten. So, don't do it if nobody does it. It is quite common in my country, though.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2009, 07:46:48 PM »

Sometimes it can be dangerous for the priest, if he's not unaware and not expecting it, holding the chalice and the paten. So, don't do it if nobody does it. It is quite common in my country, though.

That makes sense.  What if the priest isn't holding anything?
Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2009, 07:54:26 PM »

I've only seen it while visiting Antiochian parishes. Never in Greek or Russian parishes. And an Antiochian friend (and PK) had described it to me as a local tradition of theirs--obviously she was unaware it was common in Romania as well. As my friend explained it to me, touching the priest's vestments during the Great Entrance was like the crowds (in particular the woman who needed healing) reaching out to touch Christ's rainment.

At least as far as her explanation went, it's only the priest bearing the Gifts whose vestments people would be touching.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,376


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2009, 08:22:47 PM »

At my parish people sometimes reach out and touch the priest's vestments when he is censing the church toward the beginning of the liturgy.  I think the explanation about it being like the  crowds touching Christ's robes would apply.  I think the priest is somehow seen as representing Christ.  I know someone who visited Etchmiadzin where the Catholicos is, and he said that when the Catholicos was censing the church, people were actually lying down in his path so that he would step over them.  I think there is a feeling that one obtains blessings, or even healing, from this contact.
Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,264



« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2009, 08:27:22 PM »

Also, what is the usual explanation for why this is done?

This is just speculation, but could it have anything to do with the multiple times in the Gospels that people touched the clothes of Christ, especially the story about the woman with the "issue of blood" (Matt. 9:19-22; Matt. 14:34-36; etc.)?

--Doh, Salpy beat me to it  Smiley
Logged

Optimist: Throw enough ideas at the wall and one is bound to stick.
Pessimist: Throw enough poo at the wall and the room is bound to stink.
Realist: You don't really need to throw things at walls to solve problems.
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2009, 08:31:08 PM »

It happens at my Greek parish. Not many people do it though, only two or three.
Logged
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,376


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2009, 08:35:10 PM »

Also, what is the usual explanation for why this is done?

This is just speculation, but could it have anything to do with the multiple times in the Gospels that people touched the clothes of Christ, especially the story about the woman with the "issue of blood" (Matt. 9:19-22; Matt. 14:34-36; etc.)?

--Doh, Salpy beat me to it  Smiley

And Witega said it before I did.   Smiley

It makes sense.  When the priest is vested and serving the liturgy, he does seem to be representing Christ.  In fact, in the Armenian Church on Good Friday, the priest's vestments are often laid inside the tomb, representing Christ.  So it makes sense that people would want to touch them as the priest is passing by.
Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,264



« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2009, 08:39:15 PM »

And Witega said it before I did.   Smiley

*hits forehead* I thought I had read this thread! Apparently not. Smiley
Logged

Optimist: Throw enough ideas at the wall and one is bound to stick.
Pessimist: Throw enough poo at the wall and the room is bound to stink.
Realist: You don't really need to throw things at walls to solve problems.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 08:53:47 PM »



At least as far as her explanation went, it's only the priest bearing the Gifts whose vestments people would be touching.

Has anyone else heard this before?
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2009, 08:55:45 PM »

I've only seen it while visiting Antiochian parishes. Never in Greek or Russian parishes. And an Antiochian friend (and PK) had described it to me as a local tradition of theirs--obviously she was unaware it was common in Romania as well. As my friend explained it to me, touching the priest's vestments during the Great Entrance was like the crowds (in particular the woman who needed healing) reaching out to touch Christ's rainment.


This makes sense.  The priest is a means used by God to convey grace to us through the sacraments. This is an Antiochian parish, also.
Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2009, 09:38:23 PM »

'Touching my vestments' is the usual practice of my parishioners, but generally only my parishioners with ties to Patmos, Mytilini, Skopelos, or other islands do this....those with ties to Thessaloniki or the non-Greeks do not.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,789



« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2009, 11:09:09 PM »

At least as far as her explanation went, it's only the priest bearing the Gifts whose vestments people would be touching.
Has anyone else heard this before?

Yes, this is what I am familiar with.  The gifts represent Christ, and you are honoring him by reaching out to the priest at that point in the service.  I would think it was strange to see this with a priest not holding the gifts.
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2009, 11:33:29 PM »

If I'm situated where it's possible to do so, I will always touch the Priest's vestments when he is bearing the Gifts.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 11:35:11 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,477


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2009, 11:36:25 PM »

At least as far as her explanation went, it's only the priest bearing the Gifts whose vestments people would be touching.
Has anyone else heard this before?

Yes, this is what I am familiar with.  The gifts represent Christ, and you are honoring him by reaching out to the priest at that point in the service.  I would think it was strange to see this with a priest not holding the gifts.
How do the gifts represent Christ if they haven't yet been consecrated to be His Body and Blood?
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,618


Teaching on the mountain


« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2009, 01:13:33 AM »

In Romania there are many places where the priest would also put the chalice on the eads of the faithful, at the great entrance.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,789



« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2009, 01:16:26 AM »

How do the gifts represent Christ if they haven't yet been consecrated to be His Body and Blood?

Really?
Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2009, 01:47:55 AM »

At least as far as her explanation went, it's only the priest bearing the Gifts whose vestments people would be touching.
Has anyone else heard this before?

Yes, this is what I am familiar with.  The gifts represent Christ, and you are honoring him by reaching out to the priest at that point in the service.  I would think it was strange to see this with a priest not holding the gifts.
How do the gifts represent Christ if they haven't yet been consecrated to be His Body and Blood?

Once they are consecrated, they no longer represent Christ, they actually are His Body and Blood. Before that, they represent Christ because of what they are intended for--the intention is a relationship.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2009, 01:56:41 AM »

In the Serbian Othodox Church, My Late Mother [Vecnaja Pamja ]  Have the priest Bless her after Liturgy with His Liturgical vestment when he's removing them..
A tradition that she had from  bosnija growing up...She continnued it here in the U .S ..Iv Never seen Other Serbs Doing this though....
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2009, 11:02:35 AM »

At least as far as her explanation went, it's only the priest bearing the Gifts whose vestments people would be touching.
Has anyone else heard this before?

Yes, this is what I am familiar with.  The gifts represent Christ, and you are honoring him by reaching out to the priest at that point in the service.  I would think it was strange to see this with a priest not holding the gifts.
How do the gifts represent Christ if they haven't yet been consecrated to be His Body and Blood?

Once they are consecrated, they no longer represent Christ, they actually are His Body and Blood. Before that, they represent Christ because of what they are intended for--the intention is a relationship.

I thought before that they represent our spiritual gifts and the fruits of our labors?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,477


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2009, 11:23:35 AM »

At least as far as her explanation went, it's only the priest bearing the Gifts whose vestments people would be touching.
Has anyone else heard this before?

Yes, this is what I am familiar with.  The gifts represent Christ, and you are honoring him by reaching out to the priest at that point in the service.  I would think it was strange to see this with a priest not holding the gifts.
How do the gifts represent Christ if they haven't yet been consecrated to be His Body and Blood?

Once they are consecrated, they no longer represent Christ, they actually are His Body and Blood. Before that, they represent Christ because of what they are intended for--the intention is a relationship.

I thought before that they represent our spiritual gifts and the fruits of our labors?
Indeed!  The procession of the gifts around the nave and onto the altar is exactly that:  our presentation of our gifts to God so that He may return them to us as the Body and Blood of His Christ.  I'm not sure there's anything more to the procession than that.
Logged
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,376


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2009, 11:29:59 AM »

I've been taught that before the bread and wine are consecrated they are icons of Christ.  After the consecration they are His Body and Blood.
Logged

witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2009, 12:47:59 PM »

At least as far as her explanation went, it's only the priest bearing the Gifts whose vestments people would be touching.
Has anyone else heard this before?

Yes, this is what I am familiar with.  The gifts represent Christ, and you are honoring him by reaching out to the priest at that point in the service.  I would think it was strange to see this with a priest not holding the gifts.
How do the gifts represent Christ if they haven't yet been consecrated to be His Body and Blood?

Once they are consecrated, they no longer represent Christ, they actually are His Body and Blood. Before that, they represent Christ because of what they are intended for--the intention is a relationship.

I thought before that they represent our spiritual gifts and the fruits of our labors?
Indeed!  The procession of the gifts around the nave and onto the altar is exactly that:  our presentation of our gifts to God so that He may return them to us as the Body and Blood of His Christ.  I'm not sure there's anything more to the procession than that.

Symbols don't have to have a single meaning. Part of their power is that they can carry multiple meanings at once. And even your description "our gifts to God" points to Christ who became human in order that Humanity would have something to offer to God--the last thing the priest says before the actual sanctification of the Gifts is "Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto Thee ...".

Is not the bread on the diskos already called the Lamb?
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2009, 04:02:53 PM »



Is not the bread on the diskos already called the Lamb?

Good point.
Logged
Tags: vestments priests 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.095 seconds with 50 queries.