Author Topic: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice  (Read 3550 times)

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Offline Patriarch Noah I

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Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« on: December 23, 2009, 02:38:58 PM »
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jhcRjyymhm_fzqzblWdA9Cnj8qOgD9CP32981

"MOSCOW — The head of the Russian Orthodox Church said Wednesday that although the church views homosexuality as a sin, gays should not face discrimination.

Patriarch Kirill said "those who sin" must not be punished and therefore the church opposes any discrimination. Same-sex unions, however, should not be considered equal to heterosexual marriages, he said.

"We accept all the choices a person makes — in terms of their sexuality as well," the patriarch said in comments carried by the state RIA Novosti news agency."

I'm afraid I don't quite understand. Is His Holiness endorsing civil-unions intead of marriages? Or is he just saying we shouldn't round them up and stone them?
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Offline Super Apostolic Bros.

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 02:52:11 PM »
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jhcRjyymhm_fzqzblWdA9Cnj8qOgD9CP32981

I'm afraid I don't quite understand. Is His Holiness endorsing civil-unions intead of marriages? Or is he just saying we shouldn't round them up and stone them?

He is saying the latter. The article says that the church considers same-sex unions as not equal to marriages (which I agree). I think this statement is a balanced one, maintaining Christian practice without appearing too tyranical.

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 03:12:33 PM »
ISTM he's saying that the Church doesn't support homosexual activity & marriage, but the Church also doesn't support people persecuting homosexuals.
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Offline Father H

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 03:17:21 PM »
I agree.   The ambiguous "we accept all the choices a person makes" is perhaps faulty translation or just obscure language, but the point is that it is a choice, and one that is sin at that, which I think is apparently clear. 

Offline Punch

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 09:13:05 PM »
ISTM he's saying that the Church doesn't support homosexual activity & marriage, but the Church also doesn't support people persecuting homosexuals.

That is how I understand his words, also.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline mathetes

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2009, 01:47:49 PM »
I agree.   The ambiguous "we accept all the choices a person makes" is perhaps faulty translation or just obscure language, but the point is that it is a choice, and one that is sin at that, which I think is apparently clear. 

Good thoughts! I would've preferred it if the translator had substituted the word "tolerate" for "accept." We should never give the impression that sinful choices are acceptable to us. We tolerate, endure, or put up with them until our Lord's return.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 06:13:10 AM »
This sort of message is greatly needed in Russia right now. Many believers are extremely intolerant, to the point that at the Moscow Pride parade ('07 I believe) they were literally beating people with processional crosses.  :(
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 10:23:33 AM »
Behavior is always a choice, except for the mentally ill of course.

Certain behaviors can never be accepted by the Orthodox Church.

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 07:54:42 PM »

Behavior is always a choice, except for the mentally ill of course.

Certain behaviors can never be accepted by the Orthodox Church.

Like beating people with processional crosses.
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2010, 09:19:46 AM »

Behavior is always a choice, except for the mentally ill of course.

Certain behaviors can never be accepted by the Orthodox Church.

Like beating people with processional crosses.
I've yet to see a group promote that behavior while claiming to uphold Orthodoxy.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2010, 10:58:08 AM »

Behavior is always a choice, except for the mentally ill of course.

Certain behaviors can never be accepted by the Orthodox Church.

Like beating people with processional crosses.
How you feel about demolishing Churches that perform homosexual "marriages?"
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Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2010, 11:05:10 AM »
On the one hand, it's a good thing- the statement aims to protect the well being of homosexuals in a largely anti-gay society. On the other hand, it casts sexual orientation in terms of a choice, which only serves to further the antiquated idea that homosexuals chose their orientation (the fact that no sane person would chose to be gay in Russia is proof alone that this isn't the case) , as opposed to being created/hardwired that way.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 11:05:47 AM by Bogoliubtsy »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2010, 11:22:13 AM »
On the one hand, it's a good thing- the statement aims to protect the well being of homosexuals in a largely anti-gay society. On the other hand, it casts sexual orientation in terms of a choice, which only serves to further the antiquated

Because tried and true of course is no good.


Quote
idea that homosexuals chose their orientation (the fact that no sane person would chose to be gay in Russia is proof alone that this isn't the case) , as opposed to being created/hardwired that way.
because that's the opinion du jour, and so we must bow to it.

Btw, is that Gene Robinson, the Sodomite adulterer that the Episcopalians installed as their "bishop" in NH, in your avatar?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2010, 11:24:37 AM »
On the one hand, it's a good thing- the statement aims to protect the well being of homosexuals in a largely anti-gay society. On the other hand, it casts sexual orientation in terms of a choice, which only serves to further the antiquated

Because tried and true of course is no good.


Quote
idea that homosexuals chose their orientation (the fact that no sane person would chose to be gay in Russia is proof alone that this isn't the case) , as opposed to being created/hardwired that way.
because that's the opinion du jour, and so we must bow to it.

Btw, is that Gene Robinson, the Sodomite adulterer that the Episcopalians installed as their "bishop" in NH, in your avatar?

No, that's Gene Robinson, the God fearing and compassionate Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire. You know, he's part of that church that can grapple with issues that took place after the 9th century.
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2010, 11:31:11 AM »
On the one hand, it's a good thing- the statement aims to protect the well being of homosexuals in a largely anti-gay society. On the other hand, it casts sexual orientation in terms of a choice, which only serves to further the antiquated

Because tried and true of course is no good.


Quote
idea that homosexuals chose their orientation (the fact that no sane person would chose to be gay in Russia is proof alone that this isn't the case) , as opposed to being created/hardwired that way.
because that's the opinion du jour, and so we must bow to it.

Btw, is that Gene Robinson, the Sodomite adulterer that the Episcopalians installed as their "bishop" in NH, in your avatar?

No, that's Gene Robinson, the God fearing and compassionate Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire. You know, he's part of that church that can grapple with issues that took place after the 9th century.
You mean the one born of marrying a sister in law, casting aside a faithful wife (which does bear a simultude to Gene Robinson's personal behavior) because she doesn't bear a son, serial adultery, murder of spouses on drummed up charges of incest and facts of loss of virginity prior to marriage.....that church? It hasn't grappled, it has succumbed.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2010, 11:37:47 AM »
On the one hand, it's a good thing- the statement aims to protect the well being of homosexuals in a largely anti-gay society. On the other hand, it casts sexual orientation in terms of a choice, which only serves to further the antiquated

Because tried and true of course is no good.


Quote
idea that homosexuals chose their orientation (the fact that no sane person would chose to be gay in Russia is proof alone that this isn't the case) , as opposed to being created/hardwired that way.
because that's the opinion du jour, and so we must bow to it.

Btw, is that Gene Robinson, the Sodomite adulterer that the Episcopalians installed as their "bishop" in NH, in your avatar?

No, that's Gene Robinson, the God fearing and compassionate Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire. You know, he's part of that church that can grapple with issues that took place after the 9th century.
You mean the one born of marrying a sister in law, casting aside a faithful wife (which does bear a simultude to Gene Robinson's personal behavior) because she doesn't bear a son, serial adultery, murder of spouses on drummed up charges of incest and facts of loss of virginity prior to marriage.....that church? It hasn't grappled, it has succumbed.

Yes, that's the Church. Not to be confused with the one that butchered and burned alive tens of thousands of Christians in Russia who wanted to cross themselves the "wrong" way.
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2010, 11:47:29 AM »
This thread is heating up. Please everyone, take a step back.

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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2010, 12:03:19 PM »
How you feel about demolishing Churches that perform homosexual "marriages?"
Are you referring to the case in Russia where they decided not to repair the dilapidated church because it had been desecrated by a priest who violated Church teachings?

Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2010, 12:06:17 PM »
Yes, that's the Church. Not to be confused with the one that butchered and burned alive tens of thousands of Christians in Russia who wanted to cross themselves the "wrong" way.
Are you blaming the modern Church for actions taken by a Medieval Tsar?


Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2010, 12:08:36 PM »
Yes, that's the Church. Not to be confused with the one that butchered and burned alive tens of thousands of Christians in Russia who wanted to cross themselves the "wrong" way.
Are you blaming the modern Church for actions taken by a Medieval Tsar?



Of course not. Nor am I blaming the Episcopal Church for the actions of Henry VIII.
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2010, 12:18:45 PM »
If V. Gene Robinson had announced from the pulpit that he was leaving his wife because he had realized that he was only attracted to young women, would his congregation have applauded him as well?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2010, 03:54:30 PM »
If V. Gene Robinson had announced from the pulpit that he was leaving his wife because he had realized that he was only attracted to young women, would his congregation have applauded him as well?
I wonder....
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2010, 03:57:29 PM »
On the one hand, it's a good thing- the statement aims to protect the well being of homosexuals in a largely anti-gay society. On the other hand, it casts sexual orientation in terms of a choice, which only serves to further the antiquated

Because tried and true of course is no good.


Quote
idea that homosexuals chose their orientation (the fact that no sane person would chose to be gay in Russia is proof alone that this isn't the case) , as opposed to being created/hardwired that way.
because that's the opinion du jour, and so we must bow to it.

Btw, is that Gene Robinson, the Sodomite adulterer that the Episcopalians installed as their "bishop" in NH, in your avatar?

No, that's Gene Robinson, the God fearing and compassionate Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire. You know, he's part of that church that can grapple with issues that took place after the 9th century.
You mean the one born of marrying a sister in law, casting aside a faithful wife (which does bear a simultude to Gene Robinson's personal behavior) because she doesn't bear a son, serial adultery, murder of spouses on drummed up charges of incest and facts of loss of virginity prior to marriage.....that church? It hasn't grappled, it has succumbed.

Yes, that's the Church. Not to be confused with the one that butchered and burned alive tens of thousands of Christians in Russia who wanted to cross themselves the "wrong" way.

As I recall, the one's crossing themselves "in the wrong way" locked themselves in their Churches and burned themselves alive.  Do find a correction if that is incorrect.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2010, 04:10:53 PM »
On the one hand, it's a good thing- the statement aims to protect the well being of homosexuals in a largely anti-gay society. On the other hand, it casts sexual orientation in terms of a choice, which only serves to further the antiquated

Because tried and true of course is no good.


Quote
idea that homosexuals chose their orientation (the fact that no sane person would chose to be gay in Russia is proof alone that this isn't the case) , as opposed to being created/hardwired that way.
because that's the opinion du jour, and so we must bow to it.

Btw, is that Gene Robinson, the Sodomite adulterer that the Episcopalians installed as their "bishop" in NH, in your avatar?

No, that's Gene Robinson, the God fearing and compassionate Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire. You know, he's part of that church that can grapple with issues that took place after the 9th century.
You mean the one born of marrying a sister in law, casting aside a faithful wife (which does bear a simultude to Gene Robinson's personal behavior) because she doesn't bear a son, serial adultery, murder of spouses on drummed up charges of incest and facts of loss of virginity prior to marriage.....that church? It hasn't grappled, it has succumbed.

Yes, that's the Church. Not to be confused with the one that butchered and burned alive tens of thousands of Christians in Russia who wanted to cross themselves the "wrong" way.

As I recall, the one's crossing themselves "in the wrong way" locked themselves in their Churches and burned themselves alive.  Do find a correction if that is incorrect.

Some, yes. Others, torture and murder.
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2010, 04:53:33 PM »
If V. Gene Robinson had announced from the pulpit that he was leaving his wife because he had realized that he was only attracted to young women, would his congregation have applauded him as well?
I wonder....
You...you're not suggesting that they might by hypocrites, are you?  :o GASP!

Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2010, 04:58:53 PM »
If V. Gene Robinson had announced from the pulpit that he was leaving his wife because he had realized that he was only attracted to young women, would his congregation have applauded him as well?

There's choice attraction and then there's genetically predisposed orientation. If anything, he began to live his life according to the latter - his actual nature. I'm sure societal norms which are, of course, not in any sense God given, dictated the course of his early love life. Plenty of gay men and women try for years to live a lie against their nature, only to find it unbearable to any longer live that lie.


What if an ancient hagiography told the story of a man who left his wife to become a monk. Would that be celebrated by the Orthodox? Because it is.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 04:59:25 PM by Bogoliubtsy »
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2010, 05:08:53 PM »
If V. Gene Robinson had announced from the pulpit that he was leaving his wife because he had realized that he was only attracted to young women, would his congregation have applauded him as well?
There's choice attraction and then there's genetically predisposed orientation.
Pausing here to note that no one has been able to identify a genetic link to same-sex attraction.
If anything, he began to live his life according to the latter - his actual nature. I'm sure societal norms which are, of course, not in any sense God given, dictated the course of his early love life.
How is any of that different from a man who realizes twenty years and several children into a marriage that he is not attracted to his spouse in any way but has an overwhelming urge to run off with a much younger woman?

You seem to be suggesting that if the attraction is strong enough, then it isn't sinful but is something to be celebrated.


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Re: Russian church: Homosexuality is personal choice
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2010, 10:11:07 PM »
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