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Author Topic: Cardinal Husar of UGCC calls for unity in Orthodox Ukraine  (Read 7082 times) Average Rating: 0
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Michael L
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« on: December 16, 2009, 07:32:22 PM »

The leader of the Greek Catholic church calls on the Ukrainian churches to return to "primitive unity"

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=33378

Kiev. December 15. Interfax - The leader of the Uniates Lubomir Husar called for the unification of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the self-proclaimed "Kiev Patriarchate and Ukrainian autocephalous Orthodox Church, as well as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in one local Church of the country.

"We have a desire to see these four branches back to the primitive unity. But this unity will not be the same as in the times (prince), Vladimir (Grand - IF)," - said the head of Church in Tuesday's press conference Kiev.

According to L. Husar, the establishment of a united church of Kiev should occur in the form of participations - need to combine faith and traditions of each of the branches to leave. "We are all equal ... We are the same can be only in the holy faith. And those already operating time, tradition, way - this is secondary. We must learn to be tolerant to each other, take it, do not insist that we must all become like one or another branch ", - the head of the Uniates.

In the view of L. Husar, Patriarch, who will head one local church, could belong to any of the four branches, and the spiritual center of the united Church will be Cathedral of St. Sophia in Kiev.

Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church came under the Brest union in 1596 to unite the Orthodox and Catholic churches in the territory of the Commonwealth with the recognition of the primacy of the Pope and a number of Roman Catholic canon, while maintaining the Eastern rite.

After the Lviv Cathedral Church in 1946 has been eliminated, although continued to operate illegally in the western regions of Ukraine and abroad. In 1989, the Church in fact was re-legalized as a result of diplomatic agreements between Mikhail Gorbachev and Pope John Paul II.
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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 07:46:55 PM »

The leader of the Greek Catholic church calls on the Ukrainian churches to return to "primitive unity"

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=33378

Kiev. December 15. Interfax - The leader of the Uniates Lubomir Husar called for the unification of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the self-proclaimed "Kiev Patriarchate and Ukrainian autocephalous Orthodox Church, as well as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in one local Church of the country.

[b]"We have a desire to see these four branches back to the primitive unity. But this unity will not be the same as in the times (prince), Vladimir (Grand - IF)," - said the head of Church in Tuesday's press conference Kiev.[/b]
According to L. Husar, the establishment of a united church of Kiev should occur in the form of participations - need to combine faith and traditions of each of the branches to leave. "We are all equal ... We are the same can be only in the holy faith. And those already operating time, tradition, way - this is secondary. We must learn to be tolerant to each other, take it, do not insist that we must all become like one or another branch ", - the head of the Uniates.

In the view of L. Husar, Patriarch, who will head one local church, could belong to any of the four branches, and the spiritual center of the united Church will be Cathedral of St. Sophia in Kiev.

Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church came under the Brest union in 1596 to unite the Orthodox and Catholic churches in the territory of the Commonwealth with the recognition of the primacy of the Pope and a number of Roman Catholic canon, while maintaining the Eastern rite.

After the Lviv Cathedral Church in 1946 has been eliminated, although continued to operate illegally in the western regions of Ukraine and abroad. In 1989, the Church in fact was re-legalized as a result of diplomatic agreements between Mikhail Gorbachev and Pope John Paul II.

What is meant by 'in primitive unity' but this unity will no be the same as in the times of St Vladimir'.  That is not only a contradiction but a fallacy!  In one of his previous speeches Archbishop Lubomir stated we alread share the same faith.  Perhaps he should be more specific by explaining the contradiction noted.

Bob
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2009, 04:57:15 AM »


Could some one please explain what this means?  I've read and reread it several times and it still makes no sense to what he is trying to say!

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 04:57:46 AM by Orthodoc » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2009, 06:24:05 AM »


Could some one please explain what this means?  I've read and reread it several times and it still makes no sense to what he is trying to say!

Orthodoc

I doubt even Abp Husar knows what he wished to mean.
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2009, 06:49:44 AM »

The English translation from foreign sites such as Interfax are very often "mechanical" translations, not translations made by real people well-versed in the original and translated languages. Hence the often clumsy vocabulary and syntax.
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2009, 10:24:12 AM »

He's free to make his profession of faith to the Orthodox Church at any time.
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2009, 10:53:17 AM »

I'm sorry, the article I posted was translated via Google so the wording is poor. Here is the article  as posted on http://rocorunity.blogspot.com/2009/12/uniate-cardinal-seeks-new-false-union.html (Rocor united blog):

Quote
Uniate chieftain Lyubomir Husar called for the unification of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the self-proclaimed “Patriarchate of Kiev” and Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, as well as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (sic) in one Ukrainian Local Church. “We desire to see these four branches back in primitive unity. But, this unity will not be the same as in the times of Grand Prince Vladimir”, he said Tuesday at a press conference Kiev. In his opinion, the establishment of a united church of Kiev would occur via cooperation, they would need to combine the faith and traditions of each of the branches. “We are all equal … The only way that we can be one is through the holy faith. Nevertheless, these developments, traditions, and customs are secondary. We must learn to be charitable to each other, be forbearing, and not insist that we must all become like one or another branch”, the Uniate head said. Husar believes that the Patriarch (sic) heading this united Local Church, could belong to any of the four branches, and the spiritual centre of the united Church would be the Cathedral of St Sophia in Kiev.

The so-called “Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church” arose in 1596 through the Union of Brest. The Orthodox Church in the Polish Rzeczpospolita joined the Catholics through their recognition of the primacy of the Pope of the Rome and acceptance of all Roman Catholic theological innovations, but, they kept their Orthodox rite and externals. The Lvov Council of 1946 abolished the Unia, although it continued to operate illegally in the Western Ukraine and openly abroad. In 1989, the Unia was effectively re-legalised because of diplomatic agreements between Mikhail Gorbachyov and Pope John Paul II.

15 December 2009
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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2009, 11:46:56 AM »


Could some one please explain what this means?  I've read and reread it several times and it still makes no sense to what he is trying to say!

Orthodoc

Welcome to the system of Sui juris churches of the East under the Vatican!

And I second, Cardinal Husar is free to confess the Orthodox Church at any time.
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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2009, 02:31:39 PM »

The English translation from foreign sites such as Interfax are very often "mechanical" translations, not translations made by real people well-versed in the original and translated languages. Hence the often clumsy vocabulary and syntax.

That is very true! Unfortunately, Ukrainian news agencies are soooo poorly staffed with qualified interpretors that they rely on Google to prepare translations, pretty much all the time. Even documents prepared in Russian are being translated into Ukrainian, and vice versa, with the use of Google. It gets utterly ridiculous at times. I read a while ago that some meeting convened in the Greman city called Frankfurt on Stuff.  Huh After a period of total bewilderment, I figured out that the original document was in Ukrainian and then it was translated into Russian using Google; the dumb computer took the German word "Main" as a Ukrainian word "майно" - posessions, belongings, stuff... hence, Frankfurt-am-Main became "Frankfurt on Stuff" ("Франкфурт-на-имущeствe").  
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2009, 03:21:05 PM »


Could some one please explain what this means?  I've read and reread it several times and it still makes no sense to what he is trying to say!

Orthodoc

Welcome to the system of Sui juris churches of the East under the Vatican!

And I second, Cardinal Husar is free to confess the Orthodox Church at any time.

According to some of his interviews he already does.  He claims we share the same faith.  He thinks he's one of dem dere 'Orthodox In Comunion With Rome'!

==============

January 2004 Interview with Husar

Husar Quote: 

Orthodox and Greek Catholics are much closer to one another, because, as I see it, we do have one faith. Even though it is frequently said that we do differ in our faith, but I don't think this is true.

Later on in the interview he seems to contradict himself -

. I share with my Orthodox brother Metropolitan Vladimir of Kyiv the same liturgical, spiritual, theological tradition, and yet we cannot concelebrate. Because we are not in the same communion. This lets us understand that we are not really one Church in each other's eyes.

Question:  What are the conditions to have eucharistic communion between the believers of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church? Is it necessary to have the same theology of marriage, of filioque , of purgatory?

LH: No. Our attitude practically is that between the Orthodox and ourselves there are no differences in faith. Questions like purgatory, the Immaculate Conception or the filioque are theological concepts, not faith. And they of course are very different, but they are ultimately complementary. So they do not represent a different faith. They represent a different understanding of the gift of faith. What is our practical stand on intercommunion? If a Catholic finds himself in a position where there is no Catholic church around, he can freely go to the Orthodox church and receive sacraments. The same thing when an Orthodox cannot find an Orthodox priest, we don't deny him the sacraments, especially confession and holy Communion. The only problem is the scandal that it means, not to give the impression that it doesn't make a difference what you are. You are what you are. But the circumstances are such that you are in need and we are open to help you or to being helped.


==============

Like it has already been pointed out....Welomce to Roman Catholic sui juris doble talk!

Orthodoc





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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2009, 04:20:28 PM »

This is probably throwing more fat on the fire, but a UGCC partisan told me that one of the senior bishops from the EP (I wish I could remember the name, but I think she told me his diocese was North American) visited the St. Elias UGCC cathedral in Brampton and said they had discussed the option of "double communion" (Rome/Orthodoxy) in Byzantium. I should have pressed for more details but I really don't think anything will come of this.
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2009, 04:37:52 PM »

This is probably throwing more fat on the fire,

LOL. Just a cultural note: in America we throw gasoline, or kerosine.

Quote
but a UGCC partisan told me that one of the senior bishops from the EP (I wish I could remember the name, but I think she told me his diocese was North American) visited the St. Elias UGCC cathedral in Brampton and said they had discussed the option of "double communion" (Rome/Orthodoxy) in Byzantium. I should have pressed for more details but I really don't think anything will come of this.

It's an idea that is floated also among the Melkites.  It goes nowhere, nor should it.
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2009, 04:54:39 PM »

The English translation from foreign sites such as Interfax are very often "mechanical" translations, not translations made by real people well-versed in the original and translated languages. Hence the often clumsy vocabulary and syntax.

That is very true! Unfortunately, Ukrainian news agencies are soooo poorly staffed with qualified interpretors that they rely on Google to prepare translations, pretty much all the time. Even documents prepared in Russian are being translated into Ukrainian, and vice versa, with the use of Google. It gets utterly ridiculous at times. I read a while ago that some meeting convened in the Greman city called Frankfurt on Stuff.  Huh After a period of total bewilderment, I figured out that the original document was in Ukrainian and then it was translated into Russian using Google; the dumb computer took the German word "Main" as a Ukrainian word "майно" - posessions, belongings, stuff... hence, Frankfurt-am-Main became "Frankfurt on Stuff" ("Франкфурт-на-имущeствe").  

I think that explains the English in a lot of electronic device instructions!
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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2009, 06:19:39 PM »

He's free to make his profession of faith to the Orthodox Church at any time.

Amen!
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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2009, 07:39:44 PM »

Seems to me that most of you are looking more into the politics of the church than the faith by your replies. Even if the Pope were to profess his faith in Orthodoxy than you would all still find an excuse not to be in communion with Rome. In the world we live in today we need to be more united than ever. Islam and Secularism are the enemies. Not Pope vs Patriarch, or Orthodoxy vs Catholicism. If we keep on stereo typing each other and more people become Muslims or Atheists, than there will be no more Orthodoxy or Catholicism. We will be the past. Both sides!. Look at Turkey. Do you all really think the Patriarch of Constantinople is worried about Orthodoxy vs Catholicism. When the Muslims are doing all they can to exterminate what is left of Christianity from Turkey. Do you think the Pope is, after Obama is thinking of making Abortion legal nation wide. And most of Europe is Atheist. For me what is important is the faith and my giving glory to God. I look at myself as a Byzantine Christian. I could care less one bit if it's unity with Rome or Constantinople or Moscow. I care more about the Byzantine faith vs Church politics.   
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 07:44:30 PM by bkovacs » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2009, 07:57:31 PM »

Seems to me that most of you are looking more into the politics of the church than the faith by your replies. Even if the Pope were to profess his faith in Orthodoxy than you would all still find an excuse not to be in communion with Rome. In the world we live in today we need to be more united than ever. Islam and Secularism are the enemies. Not Pope vs Patriarch, or Orthodoxy vs Catholicism. If we keep on stereo typing each other and more people become Muslims or Atheists, than there will be no more Orthodoxy or Catholicism. We will be the past. Both sides!. Look at Turkey. Do you all really think the Patriarch of Constantinople is worried about Orthodoxy vs Catholicism. When the Muslims are doing all they can to exterminate what is left of Christianity from Turkey. Do you think the Pope is, after Obama is thinking of making Abortion legal nation wide. And most of Europe is Atheist. For me what is important is the faith and my giving glory to God. I look at myself as a Byzantine Christian. I could care less one bit if it's unity with Rome or Constantinople or Moscow. I care more about the Byzantine faith vs Church politics.   
I have to agree that this bickering between Catholics and Orthodox does not help in the fight against atheism and secularism in the world today. On the other hand, the differences between the two Churches are pretty serious and neither side wants to budge.
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« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2009, 08:01:26 PM »

Quote
Seems to me that most of you are looking more into the politics of the church than the faith by your replies. Even if the Pope were to profess his faith in Orthodoxy than you would all still find an excuse not to be in communion with Rome.... If we keep on stereo typing each other and more people become Muslims or Atheists, than there will be no more Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

Um... yeah... thanks for showing us how not to stereotype  Tongue
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« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2009, 09:08:30 PM »

Seems to me that most of you are looking more into the politics of the church than the faith by your replies. Even if the Pope were to profess his faith in Orthodoxy than you would all still find an excuse not to be in communion with Rome. In the world we live in today we need to be more united than ever. Islam and Secularism are the enemies. Not Pope vs Patriarch, or Orthodoxy vs Catholicism. If we keep on stereo typing each other and more people become Muslims or Atheists, than there will be no more Orthodoxy or Catholicism. We will be the past. Both sides!. Look at Turkey. Do you all really think the Patriarch of Constantinople is worried about Orthodoxy vs Catholicism. When the Muslims are doing all they can to exterminate what is left of Christianity from Turkey. Do you think the Pope is, after Obama is thinking of making Abortion legal nation wide. And most of Europe is Atheist. For me what is important is the faith and my giving glory to God. I look at myself as a Byzantine Christian. I could care less one bit if it's unity with Rome or Constantinople or Moscow. I care more about the Byzantine faith vs Church politics.   
I have to agree that this bickering between Catholics and Orthodox does not help in the fight against atheism and secularism in the world today. On the other hand, the differences between the two Churches are pretty serious and neither side wants to budge.

And that's why I stay out of the political and theological debates. All I care about is giving glory to God the best I can, and I do it in the Byzantine tradition. And if I can learn about the Byzantine tradition whether it is from Eastern Orthodox sources or Eastern Catholic sources is only to my and others advantage. I also frequent Oriental Orthodox/Catholic sources as well. I just love Eastern Christianity as a whole, but I also realize that many Western Christians do the best they can to give glory to God. We will never always agree, but that is part of human nature. Not every Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic agrees 100% on everything. Even though we feel they may. My two cents worth.
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« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2009, 09:15:46 PM »


Could some one please explain what this means?  I've read and reread it several times and it still makes no sense to what he is trying to say!

Orthodoc

Welcome to the system of Sui juris churches of the East under the Vatican!

And I second, Cardinal Husar is free to confess the Orthodox Church at any time.

According to some of his interviews he already does.  He claims we share the same faith.  He thinks he's one of dem dere 'Orthodox In Comunion With Rome'!

==============

January 2004 Interview with Husar

Husar Quote: 

Orthodox and Greek Catholics are much closer to one another, because, as I see it, we do have one faith. Even though it is frequently said that we do differ in our faith, but I don't think this is true.

Later on in the interview he seems to contradict himself -

. I share with my Orthodox brother Metropolitan Vladimir of Kyiv the same liturgical, spiritual, theological tradition, and yet we cannot concelebrate. Because we are not in the same communion. This lets us understand that we are not really one Church in each other's eyes.

Question:  What are the conditions to have eucharistic communion between the believers of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church? Is it necessary to have the same theology of marriage, of filioque , of purgatory?

LH: No. Our attitude practically is that between the Orthodox and ourselves there are no differences in faith. Questions like purgatory, the Immaculate Conception or the filioque are theological concepts, not faith. And they of course are very different, but they are ultimately complementary. So they do not represent a different faith. They represent a different understanding of the gift of faith. What is our practical stand on intercommunion? If a Catholic finds himself in a position where there is no Catholic church around, he can freely go to the Orthodox church and receive sacraments. The same thing when an Orthodox cannot find an Orthodox priest, we don't deny him the sacraments, especially confession and holy Communion. The only problem is the scandal that it means, not to give the impression that it doesn't make a difference what you are. You are what you are. But the circumstances are such that you are in need and we are open to help you or to being helped.


==============

Like it has already been pointed out....Welomce to Roman Catholic sui juris doble talk!

Orthodoc







In the Eastern Catholic Churches, the filioque is "not" recited. I just went to my local UGCC today and we did not recite the filioque.
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« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2009, 09:44:19 PM »


Could some one please explain what this means?  I've read and reread it several times and it still makes no sense to what he is trying to say!

Orthodoc

Welcome to the system of Sui juris churches of the East under the Vatican!

And I second, Cardinal Husar is free to confess the Orthodox Church at any time.

According to some of his interviews he already does.  He claims we share the same faith.  He thinks he's one of dem dere 'Orthodox In Comunion With Rome'!

==============

January 2004 Interview with Husar

Husar Quote: 

Orthodox and Greek Catholics are much closer to one another, because, as I see it, we do have one faith. Even though it is frequently said that we do differ in our faith, but I don't think this is true.

Later on in the interview he seems to contradict himself -

. I share with my Orthodox brother Metropolitan Vladimir of Kyiv the same liturgical, spiritual, theological tradition, and yet we cannot concelebrate. Because we are not in the same communion. This lets us understand that we are not really one Church in each other's eyes.

Question:  What are the conditions to have eucharistic communion between the believers of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church? Is it necessary to have the same theology of marriage, of filioque , of purgatory?

LH: No. Our attitude practically is that between the Orthodox and ourselves there are no differences in faith. Questions like purgatory, the Immaculate Conception or the filioque are theological concepts, not faith. And they of course are very different, but they are ultimately complementary. So they do not represent a different faith. They represent a different understanding of the gift of faith. What is our practical stand on intercommunion? If a Catholic finds himself in a position where there is no Catholic church around, he can freely go to the Orthodox church and receive sacraments. The same thing when an Orthodox cannot find an Orthodox priest, we don't deny him the sacraments, especially confession and holy Communion. The only problem is the scandal that it means, not to give the impression that it doesn't make a difference what you are. You are what you are. But the circumstances are such that you are in need and we are open to help you or to being helped.


==============

Like it has already been pointed out....Welomce to Roman Catholic sui juris doble talk!

Orthodoc







In the Eastern Catholic Churches, the filioque is "not" recited. I just went to my local UGCC today and we did not recite the filioque.

But do you not claim to share the same faith with your Roman Catholic brethren, who profess the filioque every Sunday?
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« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2009, 09:59:03 PM »


Could some one please explain what this means?  I've read and reread it several times and it still makes no sense to what he is trying to say!

Orthodoc

Welcome to the system of Sui juris churches of the East under the Vatican!

And I second, Cardinal Husar is free to confess the Orthodox Church at any time.

According to some of his interviews he already does.  He claims we share the same faith.  He thinks he's one of dem dere 'Orthodox In Comunion With Rome'!

==============

January 2004 Interview with Husar

Husar Quote: 

Orthodox and Greek Catholics are much closer to one another, because, as I see it, we do have one faith. Even though it is frequently said that we do differ in our faith, but I don't think this is true.

Later on in the interview he seems to contradict himself -

. I share with my Orthodox brother Metropolitan Vladimir of Kyiv the same liturgical, spiritual, theological tradition, and yet we cannot concelebrate. Because we are not in the same communion. This lets us understand that we are not really one Church in each other's eyes.

Question:  What are the conditions to have eucharistic communion between the believers of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church? Is it necessary to have the same theology of marriage, of filioque , of purgatory?

LH: No. Our attitude practically is that between the Orthodox and ourselves there are no differences in faith. Questions like purgatory, the Immaculate Conception or the filioque are theological concepts, not faith. And they of course are very different, but they are ultimately complementary. So they do not represent a different faith. They represent a different understanding of the gift of faith. What is our practical stand on intercommunion? If a Catholic finds himself in a position where there is no Catholic church around, he can freely go to the Orthodox church and receive sacraments. The same thing when an Orthodox cannot find an Orthodox priest, we don't deny him the sacraments, especially confession and holy Communion. The only problem is the scandal that it means, not to give the impression that it doesn't make a difference what you are. You are what you are. But the circumstances are such that you are in need and we are open to help you or to being helped.


==============

Like it has already been pointed out....Welomce to Roman Catholic sui juris doble talk!

Orthodoc







In the Eastern Catholic Churches, the filioque is "not" recited. I just went to my local UGCC today and we did not recite the filioque.

But do you not claim to share the same faith with your Roman Catholic brethren, who profess the filioque every Sunday?

True, but that's the way it is. Like I said before, it's mainly all politics that separates the two churches. There are also some Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions that are not communion with each other. But they all profess the same faith. Right?.
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« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2009, 10:39:34 PM »


Could some one please explain what this means?  I've read and reread it several times and it still makes no sense to what he is trying to say!

Orthodoc

Welcome to the system of Sui juris churches of the East under the Vatican!

And I second, Cardinal Husar is free to confess the Orthodox Church at any time.

According to some of his interviews he already does.  He claims we share the same faith.  He thinks he's one of dem dere 'Orthodox In Comunion With Rome'!

==============

January 2004 Interview with Husar

Husar Quote:  

Orthodox and Greek Catholics are much closer to one another, because, as I see it, we do have one faith. Even though it is frequently said that we do differ in our faith, but I don't think this is true.

Later on in the interview he seems to contradict himself -

. I share with my Orthodox brother Metropolitan Vladimir of Kyiv the same liturgical, spiritual, theological tradition, and yet we cannot concelebrate. Because we are not in the same communion. This lets us understand that we are not really one Church in each other's eyes.

Question:  What are the conditions to have eucharistic communion between the believers of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church? Is it necessary to have the same theology of marriage, of filioque , of purgatory?

LH: No. Our attitude practically is that between the Orthodox and ourselves there are no differences in faith. Questions like purgatory, the Immaculate Conception or the filioque are theological concepts, not faith. And they of course are very different, but they are ultimately complementary. So they do not represent a different faith. They represent a different understanding of the gift of faith. What is our practical stand on intercommunion? If a Catholic finds himself in a position where there is no Catholic church around, he can freely go to the Orthodox church and receive sacraments. The same thing when an Orthodox cannot find an Orthodox priest, we don't deny him the sacraments, especially confession and holy Communion. The only problem is the scandal that it means, not to give the impression that it doesn't make a difference what you are. You are what you are. But the circumstances are such that you are in need and we are open to help you or to being helped.


==============

Like it has already been pointed out....Welomce to Roman Catholic sui juris doble talk!

Orthodoc







In the Eastern Catholic Churches, the filioque is "not" recited. I just went to my local UGCC today and we did not recite the filioque.

But do you not claim to share the same faith with your Roman Catholic brethren, who profess the filioque every Sunday?

True, but that's the way it is. Like I said before, it's mainly all politics that separates the two churches. There are also some Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions that are not communion with each other. But they all profess the same faith. Right?. The Byzantine Catholic church and the Roman Catholic Church expresses their faith differently. An example: Do you not all love the Old Rite Prayer Book (Old Ritualist). But why?. They are not in communion with the rest of the Canonical Orthodox Churches. Their faith is different. They use two fingers we use three. When we die. Will God separate those who use the filioque from those that don't. No!. But God will ask why we remained separated for so long. Will God care if we followed the Pope or Patriarch. No!. The filioque debate is far less severe than let's say the abortion issue, or allowing Gays to be clerics, and say that it's ok to abuse children, or steal funds from our churches. Those are the things that will affect how God judges us!. Do we all still want to remain Orthodox Christians or Catholic Christians. No!. We want to become " Orthodox Catholic Christians".  I do agree that the Roman Catholic Church has many problems. Problems that affect only the Roman Catholic Church. But these are problems that will take years and prayers to solve. But Orthodox Christians also have problems. So why must I or you be chastised because of those problems. Why can't I receive communion in both an Eastern Orthodox Church and an Eastern Catholic Church. Why can't I go to Church with my Mother and brothers during Christmas, who are Roman Catholic and together receive communion?.  Do I tell them, that they are not true Christians, only I am!. Do you know how it feels for me to go to an Eastern Orthodox Church and have to remain seated every Sunday during communion, when I know the community well and share the same faith and realize that everyone that receives communion may not share the same faith, but were born "Orthodox". I go to an Eastern Catholic Church so I can receive the sacraments and give glory to God in the Byzantine tradition. But I also know that God wants us all to be one. And in my lifetime I want to follow his directive.  So I go to both!.  
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« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2009, 10:42:21 PM »

So, for now, have you decided to try and go the "middle of the road" path?  I recall you were pretty serious about converting to Orthodoxy until recently.  Is your main motivation to remain in communion with your family?
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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2009, 10:48:27 PM »

Comment:  True, but that's the way it is. Like I said before, it's mainly all politics that separates the two churches. There are also some Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions that are not communion with each other. But they all profess the same faith. Right?.  
 
 
Reply:  Perhaps, at this point you can give us your definition of what you mean by 'faith'?  To us one's 'faith' is defined in the doctrines one is required to believe to be considered a member of the Orthodox Church.  Filioque is a DOCTRINE proclaimed by the RCC. As a doctrine isn't it  considered necessary for salvation in the Roman Catholic Church or not?

It is not all politics that separates the churches, it's theology!  It's such a shame that you all within the eastern rites have gone so far past the definition of a 'shared faith' that you almost sound Protestant!  According to your definition regarding Orthodoxy, your separation with Protestants is also mainly  due to politics at this point .  Since you put such a lack of importance in difference of 'doctrine' or 'dogma'.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2009, 11:11:56 PM »

But they all profess the same faith. Right?

Wrong.  If they were essentially the same, I would just return to Rome.  They aren't both right.  The Roman Catholic Church's Trinitarian theology is incorrect; it is a different faith.
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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2009, 11:23:08 PM »

So, for now, have you decided to try and go the "middle of the road" path?  I recall you were pretty serious about converting to Orthodoxy until recently.  Is your main motivation to remain in communion with your family?

For now yes. I plan on attending a local Orthodox Church for Vespers and various other feast days. But in my current situation it is best for me to remain Eastern Catholic for the Divine Liturgy. So I can receive the sacraments and share those sacraments with my family. Not to be an outsider to them. Who knows what the future holds for me. 
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« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2009, 11:36:14 PM »

Comment:  True, but that's the way it is. Like I said before, it's mainly all politics that separates the two churches. There are also some Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions that are not communion with each other. But they all profess the same faith. Right?.  
 
 
Reply:  Perhaps, at this point you can give us your definition of what you mean by 'faith'?  To us one's 'faith' is defined in the doctrines one is required to believe to be considered a member of the Orthodox Church.  Filioque is a DOCTRINE proclaimed by the RCC. As a doctrine isn't it  considered necessary for salvation in the Roman Catholic Church or not?

It is not all politics that separates the churches, it's theology!  It's such a shame that you all within the eastern rites have gone so far past the definition of a 'shared faith' that you almost sound Protestant!  According to your definition regarding Orthodoxy, your separation with Protestants is also mainly  due to politics at this point .  Since you put such a lack of importance in difference of 'doctrine' or 'dogma'.

Orthodoc








Quote "Filioque is a DOCTRINE proclaimed by the RCC"

But not the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Quote "According to your definition regarding Orthodoxy, your separation with Protestants is also mainly  due to politics at this point .  Since you put such a lack of importance in difference of 'doctrine' or 'dogma"

Wrong!. The comment I gave in regards to abortion and gay clerics would be directed towards Protestants. And I would put an importance, to the abortion issue and the liberation theology that has all but destroyed Western society.

How do you converse with the Oriental Orthodox, who only accept three of the seven Ecumenical Councils which both the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church accepts as valid.   
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« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2009, 11:40:32 PM »

But they all profess the same faith. Right?

Wrong.  If they were essentially the same, I would just return to Rome.  They aren't both right.  The Roman Catholic Church's Trinitarian theology is incorrect; it is a different faith.

Quote "If they were essentially the same"

This was directed at juradictions like

    * Eastern Orthodox Churches (not in communion)
          o Greek Old Calendarists Matthewites
          o Greek Old Calendarists Florinites
          o Orthodox Church of Greece (Holy Synod in Resistance)[31]
          o Old Calendar Romanian Orthodox Church[32]
          o Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church[33]
          o Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church[34]
          o Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church
          o Russian Old-Orthodox Church[35]
          o Pomorian Old-Orthodox Church
          o Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
          o Bulgarian Orthodox Church - Alternative synod
          o Holy Orthodox Church in North America
          o Macedonian Orthodox Church[36]
          o Montenegrin Orthodox Church[37]
          o Orthodox Church in Italy[38]
          o Russian Orthodox Church in America[39]
          o Russian True Orthodox Church[40]
          o Autocephalous Turkish Orthodox Patriarchate
          o Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate[41]
          o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church[42]
          o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church - Canonical[43]
 
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« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2009, 11:59:58 PM »

But they all profess the same faith. Right?

Wrong.  If they were essentially the same, I would just return to Rome.  They aren't both right.  The Roman Catholic Church's Trinitarian theology is incorrect; it is a different faith.

Quote "If they were essentially the same"

This was directed at juradictions like

    * Eastern Orthodox Churches (not in communion)
          o Greek Old Calendarists Matthewites
          o Greek Old Calendarists Florinites
          o Orthodox Church of Greece (Holy Synod in Resistance)[31]
          o Old Calendar Romanian Orthodox Church[32]
          o Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church[33]
          o Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church[34]
          o Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church
          o Russian Old-Orthodox Church[35]
          o Pomorian Old-Orthodox Church
          o Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
          o Bulgarian Orthodox Church - Alternative synod
          o Holy Orthodox Church in North America
          o Macedonian Orthodox Church[36]
          o Montenegrin Orthodox Church[37]
          o Orthodox Church in Italy[38]
          o Russian Orthodox Church in America[39]
          o Russian True Orthodox Church[40]
          o Autocephalous Turkish Orthodox Patriarchate
          o Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate[41]
          o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church[42]
          o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church - Canonical[43]
 

Do you really want us to rattle off the offshoots from the Latin Church?  Roll Eyes

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2009, 12:02:45 AM »


Quote "Filioque is a DOCTRINE proclaimed by the RCC"

But not the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Quote "According to your definition regarding Orthodoxy, your separation with Protestants is also mainly  due to politics at this point .  Since you put such a lack of importance in difference of 'doctrine' or 'dogma"

Wrong!. The comment I gave in regards to abortion and gay clerics would be directed towards Protestants. And I would put an importance, to the abortion issue and the liberation theology that has all but destroyed Western society.

How do you converse with the Oriental Orthodox, who only accept three of the seven Ecumenical Councils which both the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church accepts as valid.   

I'm sorry, but this looks like pure spiritual schizophrenia and hypocrisy. How can you be in communion with Rome when you don't adhere to the same beliefs they do? Rome does not put up with this, I know that much.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2009, 12:07:32 AM »

Comment:  True, but that's the way it is. Like I said before, it's mainly all politics that separates the two churches. There are also some Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions that are not communion with each other. But they all profess the same faith. Right?.  
 
 
Reply:  Perhaps, at this point you can give us your definition of what you mean by 'faith'?  To us one's 'faith' is defined in the doctrines one is required to believe to be considered a member of the Orthodox Church.  Filioque is a DOCTRINE proclaimed by the RCC. As a doctrine isn't it  considered necessary for salvation in the Roman Catholic Church or not?

It is not all politics that separates the churches, it's theology!  It's such a shame that you all within the eastern rites have gone so far past the definition of a 'shared faith' that you almost sound Protestant!  According to your definition regarding Orthodoxy, your separation with Protestants is also mainly  due to politics at this point .  Since you put such a lack of importance in difference of 'doctrine' or 'dogma'.

Orthodoc



Quote "It is not all politics that separates the churches, it's theology!  It's such a shame that you all within the eastern rites have gone so far past the definition of a 'shared faith' that you almost sound Protestant!  According to your definition regarding Orthodoxy, your separation with Protestants is also mainly  due to politics at this point .  Since you put such a lack of importance in difference of 'doctrine' or 'dogma'."

It is not all politics that separates the churches, it's theology.
But politics do come into play here. I am not taking a stand for either side here.

According to your definition regarding Orthodoxy, your separation with Protestants is also mainly  due to politics at this point .  Since you put such a lack of importance in difference of 'doctrine' or 'dogma'."

I would say that there is a huge difference in 'doctrine and dogma' between Roman Catholics and Protestants or Orthodox and Protestants for that matter compared to Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians. I never said anything about putting a lack of importance on dogma and doctrine.
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« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2009, 12:09:26 AM »

But they all profess the same faith. Right?

Wrong.  If they were essentially the same, I would just return to Rome.  They aren't both right.  The Roman Catholic Church's Trinitarian theology is incorrect; it is a different faith.

Quote "If they were essentially the same"

This was directed at juradictions like

    * Eastern Orthodox Churches (not in communion)
          o Greek Old Calendarists Matthewites
          o Greek Old Calendarists Florinites
          o Orthodox Church of Greece (Holy Synod in Resistance)[31]
          o Old Calendar Romanian Orthodox Church[32]
          o Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church[33]
          o Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church[34]
          o Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church
          o Russian Old-Orthodox Church[35]
          o Pomorian Old-Orthodox Church
          o Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
          o Bulgarian Orthodox Church - Alternative synod
          o Holy Orthodox Church in North America
          o Macedonian Orthodox Church[36]
          o Montenegrin Orthodox Church[37]
          o Orthodox Church in Italy[38]
          o Russian Orthodox Church in America[39]
          o Russian True Orthodox Church[40]
          o Autocephalous Turkish Orthodox Patriarchate
          o Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate[41]
          o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church[42]
          o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church - Canonical[43]
 

Do you really want us to rattle off the offshoots from the Latin Church?  Roll Eyes

In Christ,
Andrew

Do I really care right now about the Latin Church. I care about being a Byzantine Christian.
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« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2009, 12:12:55 AM »


Quote "Filioque is a DOCTRINE proclaimed by the RCC"

But not the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Quote "According to your definition regarding Orthodoxy, your separation with Protestants is also mainly  due to politics at this point .  Since you put such a lack of importance in difference of 'doctrine' or 'dogma"

Wrong!. The comment I gave in regards to abortion and gay clerics would be directed towards Protestants. And I would put an importance, to the abortion issue and the liberation theology that has all but destroyed Western society.





How do you converse with the Oriental Orthodox, who only accept three of the seven Ecumenical Councils which both the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church accepts as valid.  

I'm sorry, but this looks like pure spiritual schizophrenia and hypocrisy. How can you be in communion with Rome when you don't adhere to the same beliefs they do? Rome does not put up with this, I know that much.

In Christ,
Andrew

Watch these videos and reply to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17YdvKVl2HA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKEzS9o7ROU
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« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2009, 12:21:34 AM »

But they all profess the same faith. Right?

Wrong.  If they were essentially the same, I would just return to Rome.  They aren't both right.  The Roman Catholic Church's Trinitarian theology is incorrect; it is a different faith.

Quote "If they were essentially the same"

This was directed at juradictions like

    * Eastern Orthodox Churches (not in communion)
          o Greek Old Calendarists Matthewites
          o Greek Old Calendarists Florinites
          o Orthodox Church of Greece (Holy Synod in Resistance)[31]
          o Old Calendar Romanian Orthodox Church[32]
          o Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church[33]
          o Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church[34]
          o Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church
          o Russian Old-Orthodox Church[35]
          o Pomorian Old-Orthodox Church
          o Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
          o Bulgarian Orthodox Church - Alternative synod
          o Holy Orthodox Church in North America
          o Macedonian Orthodox Church[36]
          o Montenegrin Orthodox Church[37]
          o Orthodox Church in Italy[38]
          o Russian Orthodox Church in America[39]
          o Russian True Orthodox Church[40]
          o Autocephalous Turkish Orthodox Patriarchate
          o Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate[41]
          o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church[42]
          o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church - Canonical[43]
 

And how many of those churches you listed are considered as canonical by the recognized canonical  autocephalous or automonous Orthodox  worldwide?  And, if not, why?

Once again, please give us your definition of one's faith or we will continue to talk past each other.  True, probably not one on the above list is in communion with another because of a political issue, but name two of the above jurisdictions that are not in communion with each other because of a particular theological doctrine!  In case you haven't realized it... the UGCC and BCC are both  sui juris parts of the same Roman Catholic Church!  They recognize her supreme authority and as such are required to accept and believe her doctrine.  You talk like they are two separate churches.  The very fact that you are in communion with them requires you to believe in the doctrines they profess ......  Like Filioque, Immaculate Conception, Limbo, Papal Supremacy, Papal infallibly, etc. You guys talk in circles!  Next you'll be telling me you are 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome"!

Orthodoc

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« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2009, 12:23:05 AM »

But they all profess the same faith. Right?

Wrong.  If they were essentially the same, I would just return to Rome.  They aren't both right.  The Roman Catholic Church's Trinitarian theology is incorrect; it is a different faith.

Quote "If they were essentially the same"

This was directed at juradictions like

    * Eastern Orthodox Churches (not in communion)
          o Greek Old Calendarists Matthewites
          o Greek Old Calendarists Florinites
          o Orthodox Church of Greece (Holy Synod in Resistance)[31]
          o Old Calendar Romanian Orthodox Church[32]
          o Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church[33]
          o Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church[34]
          o Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church
          o Russian Old-Orthodox Church[35]
          o Pomorian Old-Orthodox Church
          o Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
          o Bulgarian Orthodox Church - Alternative synod
          o Holy Orthodox Church in North America
          o Macedonian Orthodox Church[36]
          o Montenegrin Orthodox Church[37]
          o Orthodox Church in Italy[38]
          o Russian Orthodox Church in America[39]
          o Russian True Orthodox Church[40]
          o Autocephalous Turkish Orthodox Patriarchate
          o Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate[41]
          o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church[42]
          o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church - Canonical[43]
 

Do you really want us to rattle off the offshoots from the Latin Church?  Roll Eyes

In Christ,
Andrew

There is over 300,000 of them.  They are called Protestants!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2009, 12:23:46 AM »


True, but that's the way it is. Like I said before, it's mainly all politics that separates the two churches. There are also some Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions that are not communion with each other. But they all profess the same faith. Right?. The Byzantine Catholic church and the Roman Catholic Church expresses their faith differently. An example: Do you not all love the Old Rite Prayer Book (Old Ritualist). But why?. They are not in communion with the rest of the Canonical Orthodox Churches. Their faith is different. They use two fingers we use three. When we die. Will God separate those who use the filioque from those that don't. No!. But God will ask why we remained separated for so long. Will God care if we followed the Pope or Patriarch. No!. The filioque debate is far less severe than let's say the abortion issue, or allowing Gays to be clerics, and say that it's ok to abuse children, or steal funds from our churches. Those are the things that will affect how God judges us!. Do we all still want to remain Orthodox Christians or Catholic Christians. No!. We want to become " Orthodox Catholic Christians".  I do agree that the Roman Catholic Church has many problems. Problems that affect only the Roman Catholic Church. But these are problems that will take years and prayers to solve. But Orthodox Christians also have problems. So why must I or you be chastised because of those problems. Why can't I receive communion in both an Eastern Orthodox Church and an Eastern Catholic Church. Why can't I go to Church with my Mother and brothers during Christmas, who are Roman Catholic and together receive communion?.  Do I tell them, that they are not true Christians, only I am!. Do you know how it feels for me to go to an Eastern Orthodox Church and have to remain seated every Sunday during communion, when I know the community well and share the same faith and realize that everyone that receives communion may not share the same faith, but were born "Orthodox". I go to an Eastern Catholic Church so I can receive the sacraments and give glory to God in the Byzantine tradition. But I also know that God wants us all to be one. And in my lifetime I want to follow his directive.  So I go to both!.  


Actually, the authors of the Old Rite Prayerbook are in communion with the rest of canonical Orthodoxy, being a part of ROCOR.

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« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2009, 12:27:23 AM »

There is over 300,000 of them.  They are called Protestants!

Orthodoc

Wow! They went from a supposed 30,000 to 300,000 that quickly? Dean Ebor, call your office.
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« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2009, 12:47:01 AM »

Please watch these videos before you reply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17YdvKVl2HA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKEzS9o7ROU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT0m9N_Kkmg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6x0iy-7Dd4

These will help you understand the Eastern Catholic positions and pretty much my position right now.
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« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2009, 12:47:34 AM »



Sorry double post.
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« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2009, 01:05:01 AM »

Do I really care right now about the Latin Church. I care about being a Byzantine Christian.

"Byzantine" is a western tag.  False unions brought on by military trickery and greedy leaders hardly constitute the authentic spiritual heritage of New Rome.  I do not doubt the personal faith of those Slavs of the unia, but nothing about their history or formation is an authentic product of an Orthodox ethos. 

An exception would maybe be the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as their union with Rome was their own choice, it was not forced on them from the outside in a deceptive way.
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« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2009, 01:11:19 AM »

Do I really care right now about the Latin Church. I care about being a Byzantine Christian.

"Byzantine" is a western tag.  False unions brought on by military trickery and greedy leaders hardly constitute the authentic spiritual heritage of New Rome.  I do not doubt the personal faith of those Slavs of the unia, but nothing about their history or formation is an authentic product of an Orthodox ethos. 

An exception would maybe be the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as their union with Rome was their own choice, it was not forced on them from the outside in a deceptive way.

Byzantine is not a Western Tag!. "Byzantium"
Coptics doen't call themselves Egyptian Orthodox Christians. Just Copts!.

What do you feel about the Melkites?.
Did you watch the videos?.
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« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2009, 03:30:43 AM »

Byzantine is not a Western Tag!

Oh, OK.  Thanks for clearing that up.  Let me just update my faith description.

What do you feel about the Melkites?

Well, based on my extensive Wikipedia research and my geographical and cultural proximity to the church in question (I'm from Missouri, USA), I would consider myself an expert on the church.  I think that the so-called Melkites got a raw deal in a lot of ways, and their looking to Rome for some autonomy from their Greek overlords seems somewhat justified. 

However, the fact that the newly elected patriarch which the Orthodox were concerned about being some kind of a usurper of the patriarchal seat for Rome ended up creating a union with Rome shows that their concerns must have had some validity.

All I was saying is that their existence seems a bit more "authentic" in some sense than the Ukrainian Catholic Church.
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« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2009, 03:51:45 AM »

True, but that's the way it is. Like I said before, it's mainly all politics that separates the two churches. There are also some Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions that are not communion with each other. But they all profess the same faith. Right?.

Actually, most of the groups you list would not consider themselves 'Orthodox jurisdictions'. They are groups that have broken communion (gone into schism) with the Orthodox Church over what they perceive as doctrinal differences--and to the extent that they perceive a doctrinal difference between themselves and the Orthodox Church, no, I cannot say the profess the 'same faith.'
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« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2009, 04:02:08 AM »

They are groups that have broken communion (gone into schism) with the Orthodox Church over what they perceive as doctrinal differences--and to the extent that they perceive a doctrinal difference between themselves and the Orthodox Church, no, I cannot say the profess the 'same faith.'

Do you consider the calendar to be a doctrinal issue?
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« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2009, 04:48:22 AM »

Do you consider the calendar to be a doctrinal issue?
As a person who is not a member of the Orthodox Church, I am interested in the answer to this question as to whether or not the Orthodox Church considers the calendar to be a doctrinal issue. I have heard varying answers on this, for example, those who say yes, will point to the declarations of Patriarch Jeremy II and the subsequent panOrthodox Councils which condemned the New Calendar. However, on further investigation there is an Orthodox Church which uses the condemned calendar, and yet they are in good standing with other ORthodox Churches:
1. In 1582, Patriarch Jeremy II wrote a letter to the Orthodox Church of
Poland, forbidding the use of the new calendar, under the penalty of
excommunication.

2. In 1583, there was convened in Constantinople the first Pan-Orthodox
Council to condemn the papal calendar.

3. In 1583, Meletius Pegas addressed himself to Cardinal Julius
Antonius, wherein he shows him the deficiencies of the Gregorian
calendar. At the same time, he wrote the Alexandrian Tome
concerning the celebration of Pascha.

4. In 1587, the second Council condemning the calendar used in the
West was held at Constantinople.

5. In 1593, the third Council condemning the new calendar was held in
Constantinople.
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« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2009, 05:14:41 AM »

They are groups that have broken communion (gone into schism) with the Orthodox Church over what they perceive as doctrinal differences--and to the extent that they perceive a doctrinal difference between themselves and the Orthodox Church, no, I cannot say the profess the 'same faith.'

Do you consider the calendar to be a doctrinal issue?

No, I don't. Which is why I remain in the Orthodox Church and do not join a schism which does consider it a doctrinal issue.
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« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2009, 06:07:28 AM »

To REPLY #44

I'm not a theologian or an expert in this area, but here are my impressions regarding your inquiry.  The doctrine of the Orthodox Church comes from the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils).  The doctrinal statements of these synods became required for the faithfull to believe in order to achieve salvation, once they are accepted by the clergy and faithful of the church, (actually, not rejected), and are considered infallible when ratified by the subsequent synod.

Pronouncements such as the local synodal statements you've identified (they were not conferences of all the hierarchy of the church), have standing for those under the immediate protection of the synods which were represented and took the position, along with other synods which accept the position.  The common acceptance of the greater Church, renders positions such as these, something that is considered required to be followed.  But still, it is not doctrine. Thus, a subsequent synod can take a modified position.

I would guess that the Churches which follow what we call the "new calendar," would respond to your question by indicating that they are not in non-compliance with these statements because they adopted a Revised Julian Calendar, not the Gregorian Calendar.  A Pan Orthodox Congress of a few representatives of each of the Holy Orthodox Churches which attended (at which only the First Throne among the Ancient Patriarchates was represented, as the convener), recommended to the Holy Orthodox Churches the adoption of a Revised Julian Calendar.  The Synods of the Churches of Greece, Constantinople, Cyprus, Romania, Alexandria, Antioch, and Bulgaria, eventually adopted the Revised Julian Calendar, while retaining the Julian Calendar for the computation of the Pascal cycle, (except for the Church of Finland which has been given an exception by Economy).  The Churches of Jerusalem, Russia, and Serbia, have not changed from the traditional use of the Julian Calendar. Another complication, Churches which use the Revised Julian Calendar may allow eparchies under them use of the Julian Calendar, the Holy Mountain, Mt. Athos, which is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, being a significant example of that situation.

I would suggest that the Calendar that was used by the First Ecumenical Synod to establish a uniform day for the celebration of Pascha, was not a doctrinal adoption of that calendar; however, the Old Calendarist Churches which are separated from the Holy Orthodox Churches, would submit that the Julian Calendar became the Church Calendar, sanctified by its use.

There could be much more said about this matter, (there is another thread on the calendars on this forum), the primary problem obviously being, that the Church as a whole did not reach a consensus on a pan-Orthodox basis, when the government of Greece coerced the Church of Greece to adopt the new calendar, which pushed the Ecumenical Patriarchate to accordingly change too.  So, for the last 85 years, "some fast while others feast" within Orthodoxy (except for the Great Lent/Paschal cycle), also resulting in the phenomenon of separated churches, often referred to as Old Calendar jurisdictions.
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« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2009, 09:31:46 AM »

There is over 300,000 of them.  They are called Protestants!

Orthodoc

Wow! They went from a supposed 30,000 to 300,000 that quickly? Dean Ebor, call your office.

Sorry!  Typing error!

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« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2009, 09:48:51 AM »

Please watch these videos before you reply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17YdvKVl2HA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKEzS9o7ROU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT0m9N_Kkmg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6x0iy-7Dd4

These will help you understand the Eastern Catholic positions and pretty much my position right now.

I'm sorry, because of a computer problem I cannot access these.  Why don't you give us a synopsis?

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« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2009, 10:02:52 AM »

Without a slightest intention to defend the idea that we share the same faith with the Eastern Rite Catholic Church, I would like, merely for the sake of accuracy, say that to say or not to say Filioque indeed depends on a particular parish. In the Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish that I visited when I lived in Seattle, the priest DID say "vid Otcya I SYNA (Filioque) izkhodyt'." On the other hand, a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest who is my virtual acquaintance from the Maidan web site says that he NEVER proclaimed Filioque even once over the 5 or so years he has been serving as a parish priest, and his higher-ups know it and do not object.
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« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2009, 10:05:30 AM »

Those condemnations were about Gregorian calendar, not revised-Julian calendar.

Calendar is not a doctrinal issue, but saying one calendar is heretical - is.

Hieorhij: I've read from UGC sources that it depends on dioceasan Bishop.
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« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2009, 10:19:03 AM »

They are groups that have broken communion (gone into schism) with the Orthodox Church over what they perceive as doctrinal differences--and to the extent that they perceive a doctrinal difference between themselves and the Orthodox Church, no, I cannot say the profess the 'same faith.'

Do you consider the calendar to be a doctrinal issue?

No, I don't. Which is why I remain in the Orthodox Church and do not join a schism which does consider it a doctrinal issue.

Again, not to say that we share the same faith with Eastern Rite Catholics, but merely for the sake of accuracy: in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, calendar is, apparently, NOT a doctrinal issue, because some UGCC parishes are on the old calendar and some on new.
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« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2009, 10:39:09 AM »

Please watch these videos before you reply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17YdvKVl2HA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKEzS9o7ROU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT0m9N_Kkmg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6x0iy-7Dd4

These will help you understand the Eastern Catholic positions and pretty much my position right now.

I understand the Eastern Catholic positions; I was raised in the Roman church and attended a Greek Catholic church for almost a decade before realizing that I do not and cannot hold to the universal supremacy and jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome as espoused by the Vatican.  Without that one belief, my reason for staying in the Catholic communion was gone.  I have come to realize that the filioque is also, at best, dangerous, and, at worst, heresy. 
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« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2009, 11:25:03 AM »

Do I really care right now about the Latin Church. I care about being a Byzantine Christian.

"Byzantine" is a western tag.  False unions brought on by military trickery and greedy leaders hardly constitute the authentic spiritual heritage of New Rome.  I do not doubt the personal faith of those Slavs of the unia, but nothing about their history or formation is an authentic product of an Orthodox ethos. 

An exception would maybe be the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, as their union with Rome was their own choice, it was not forced on them from the outside in a deceptive way.

Byzantine is not a Western Tag!. "Byzantium"

The only "Byzantines" who called themselves "Byzantine" are those who submitted to the Vatican.


Quote
Coptics doen't call themselves Egyptian Orthodox Christians. Just Copts!.
Copt it the Egyptian word for Egyptian.  In Coptic, the native word "Rem'nkhemi" means "man-of-Egypt."

Quote
What do you feel about the Melkites?.
What about the Melkites?  They are basically the ones who didn't submit to the Vatican at her sword point.  Many are equally indifferent to Old and New Rome.  A pox on both their houses.
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« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2009, 02:39:29 PM »

Without a slightest intention to defend the idea that we share the same faith with the Eastern Rite Catholic Church, I would like, merely for the sake of accuracy, say that to say or not to say Filioque indeed depends on a particular parish. In the Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish that I visited when I lived in Seattle, the priest DID say "vid Otcya I SYNA (Filioque) izkhodyt'." On the other hand, a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest who is my virtual acquaintance from the Maidan web site says that he NEVER proclaimed Filioque even once over the 5 or so years he has been serving as a parish priest, and his higher-ups know it and do not object.

So much for theologically uniformity amongst Rome and her automous sui juris churches!  And now Cardinal Husar is offering the same type of theological inconsistency to his Ukraiian Orhodox brother and sisters and expects them to buy into it!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2009, 08:25:44 PM »

To REPLY #44

I'm not a theologian or an expert in this area, but here are my impressions regarding your inquiry.  The doctrine of the Orthodox Church comes from the 7 Ecumenical Synods (Councils).  The doctrinal statements of these synods became required for the faithfull to believe in order to achieve salvation, once they are accepted by the clergy and faithful of the church, (actually, not rejected), and are considered infallible when ratified by the subsequent synod.

Pronouncements such as the local synodal statements you've identified (they were not conferences of all the hierarchy of the church), have standing for those under the immediate protection of the synods which were represented and took the position, along with other synods which accept the position.  The common acceptance of the greater Church, renders positions such as these, something that is considered required to be followed.  But still, it is not doctrine. Thus, a subsequent synod can take a modified position.

I would guess that the Churches which follow what we call the "new calendar," would respond to your question by indicating that they are not in non-compliance with these statements because they adopted a Revised Julian Calendar, not the Gregorian Calendar.  A Pan Orthodox Congress of a few representatives of each of the Holy Orthodox Churches which attended (at which only the First Throne among the Ancient Patriarchates was represented, as the convener), recommended to the Holy Orthodox Churches the adoption of a Revised Julian Calendar.  The Synods of the Churches of Greece, Constantinople, Cyprus, Romania, Alexandria, Antioch, and Bulgaria, eventually adopted the Revised Julian Calendar, while retaining the Julian Calendar for the computation of the Pascal cycle, (except for the Church of Finland which has been given an exception by Economy).  The Churches of Jerusalem, Russia, and Serbia, have not changed from the traditional use of the Julian Calendar. Another complication, Churches which use the Revised Julian Calendar may allow eparchies under them use of the Julian Calendar, the Holy Mountain, Mt. Athos, which is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, being a significant example of that situation.

I would suggest that the Calendar that was used by the First Ecumenical Synod to establish a uniform day for the celebration of Pascha, was not a doctrinal adoption of that calendar; however, the Old Calendarist Churches which are separated from the Holy Orthodox Churches, would submit that the Julian Calendar became the Church Calendar, sanctified by its use.

There could be much more said about this matter, (there is another thread on the calendars on this forum), the primary problem obviously being, that the Church as a whole did not reach a consensus on a pan-Orthodox basis, when the government of Greece coerced the Church of Greece to adopt the new calendar, which pushed the Ecumenical Patriarchate to accordingly change too.  So, for the last 85 years, "some fast while others feast" within Orthodoxy (except for the Great Lent/Paschal cycle), also resulting in the phenomenon of separated churches, often referred to as Old Calendar jurisdictions.
OK. Thanks for taking the time. But there is a question, because the Orthodox Church of Finland uses the condemned Gregorian calendar.
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« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2009, 11:22:46 PM »

To REPLY #55

I do not know an ecclesiastically based answer to your question. I'm sure the Ecumenical Patriarchate has one.  The practical answer has something to do with civil laws in Finland, though I can't recall the specifics.
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« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2009, 11:26:26 PM »

Without a slightest intention to defend the idea that we share the same faith with the Eastern Rite Catholic Church, I would like, merely for the sake of accuracy, say that to say or not to say Filioque indeed depends on a particular parish. In the Ukrainian Greek Catholic parish that I visited when I lived in Seattle, the priest DID say "vid Otcya I SYNA (Filioque) izkhodyt'." On the other hand, a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest who is my virtual acquaintance from the Maidan web site says that he NEVER proclaimed Filioque even once over the 5 or so years he has been serving as a parish priest, and his higher-ups know it and do not object.

So much for theologically uniformity amongst Rome and her automous sui juris churches!  And now Cardinal Husar is offering the same type of theological inconsistency to his Ukraiian Orhodox brother and sisters and expects them to buy into it!

Orthodoc

Yes, that's what he seems to be doing, facing the onslaught of atheism on the one front and "Sergianism" ("PutinoEurasiomonarchism" disguised as "Orthodoxy") on the other...
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« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2009, 01:05:57 PM »


Yes, that's what he seems to be doing, facing the onslaught of atheism on the one front and "Sergianism" ("PutinoEurasiomonarchism" disguised as "Orthodoxy") on the other...
That is the first time I have heard something like this. Is it common among Ukrainians to say Putino-Eurasiomonarchism?
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« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2009, 11:25:17 AM »


Yes, that's what he seems to be doing, facing the onslaught of atheism on the one front and "Sergianism" ("PutinoEurasiomonarchism" disguised as "Orthodoxy") on the other...
That is the first time I have heard something like this. Is it common among Ukrainians to say Putino-Eurasiomonarchism?

Politics, politics, politics!  What a shame it is when were justify putting Christ and his teachings (doctrines) on the mat outside the church in favor of political hatred.  That's a new one George.  Never heard it before.

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« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2009, 02:56:11 PM »



Here is the latest on Cardinal Husar -

===============

30 December 2009, 14:52

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6792

Kiev, December 30, Interfax – Head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Lubomyr Cardinal Husar said he was ready to leave his post, but did not name the successor as such decision was not in his competence.

“I’m not immortal. It seems I’d better delegate my authority now, quietly, so that work can go on. The Church is living and no one is indispensable. Our Church has greatly progressed for the recent fourteen years, but a long way to complete organization is still in store for us,” the UGCC head told journalists at Lvov press conference on Tuesday.

Husar stressed it was not up to him to decide who would succeed him as this question in the Synod competence, “Such things are done calmly without any super emotions. I don’t have exact date, it’s a kind of process.”

Husar has been the UGCC leader from January 2001. He was the first head of this Church elected in independent Ukraine.

===================

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« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2010, 09:10:10 PM »

It's an idea that is floated also among the Melkites.  It goes nowhere, nor should it.
[/quote]

I have heard this also though I thought the idea was floated back in the Balamand Agreement days and killed because of it. I have also heard that there is a new move towards an "adjustment" in the relations between the Melkites and the Maronites and Rome to reflect certain "new realities". Any truth to that?
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« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2010, 05:31:21 AM »


Seems to me that most of you are looking more into the politics of the church than the faith by your replies.

No, most people here appear to understand how abhorrently divergent Rome is in its dogmatic tradition, unlike most of the confused "Eastern Catholics" I have met.


Even if the Pope were to profess his faith in Orthodoxy than you would all still find an excuse not to be in communion with Rome.

Probably not. But it would probably be more in the form of initiating Rome into Orthodoxy rather than the Orthodox being welcomed into communion with Rome.


In the world we live in today we need to be more united than ever.

Agreed. So please get around to returning to the Apostolic faith!
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« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2010, 05:32:27 AM »

Seems to me that most of you are looking more into the politics of the church than the faith by your replies. Even if the Pope were to profess his faith in Orthodoxy than you would all still find an excuse not to be in communion with Rome. In the world we live in today we need to be more united than ever. Islam and Secularism are the enemies. Not Pope vs Patriarch, or Orthodoxy vs Catholicism. If we keep on stereo typing each other and more people become Muslims or Atheists, than there will be no more Orthodoxy or Catholicism. We will be the past. Both sides!. Look at Turkey. Do you all really think the Patriarch of Constantinople is worried about Orthodoxy vs Catholicism. When the Muslims are doing all they can to exterminate what is left of Christianity from Turkey. Do you think the Pope is, after Obama is thinking of making Abortion legal nation wide. And most of Europe is Atheist. For me what is important is the faith and my giving glory to God. I look at myself as a Byzantine Christian. I could care less one bit if it's unity with Rome or Constantinople or Moscow. I care more about the Byzantine faith vs Church politics.   
I have to agree that this bickering between Catholics and Orthodox does not help in the fight against atheism and secularism in the world today. On the other hand, the differences between the two Churches are pretty serious and neither side wants to budge.

Honestly, not compromising with the heresies of Rome is more important than political victories.
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« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2010, 05:34:11 AM »


In the Eastern Catholic Churches, the filioque is "not" recited. I just went to my local UGCC today and we did not recite the filioque.

That is not all that significant. You are still required to believe in the dogmatic traditions of Rome related to the filioque, which are really more of an offense to orthodoxy than the clause itself.
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« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2010, 05:38:03 AM »


The filioque debate is far less severe than let's say the abortion issue, or allowing Gays to be clerics, and say that it's ok to abuse children, or steal funds from our churches.

Are you serious? You actually think those issues are more important than preserving the doctrine of the Trinity?!


We want to become " Orthodox Catholic Christians".

Well we believe ourselves to already be Orthodox Catholic Christians.


Why can't I receive communion in both an Eastern Orthodox Church and an Eastern Catholic Church.

Because the EO understands the issue better than you do and realize that you must not be Communed until your explicitly profess the EO faith and reject the Communion of those who teach divergent faiths, such as the Romanists.
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« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2010, 05:39:46 AM »


It's such a shame that you all within the eastern rites have gone so far past the definition of a 'shared faith' that you almost sound Protestant!

Heh. Unfortunately true.
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« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2010, 05:42:36 AM »


Quote "Filioque is a DOCTRINE proclaimed by the RCC"

But not the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Actually, the Eastern Catholic Churches all officially admit the doctrine behind the filioque, even though they do not use the clause.


How do you converse with the Oriental Orthodox, who only accept three of the seven Ecumenical Councils which both the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church accepts as valid.   

EO and OO get along way better than we do with Easterners in communion with Rome.
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« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2010, 05:49:26 AM »

I find it rather ironic that it is a Ukrainian Catholic who is making this suggestion, given that they are the last group of the four that the other three would unite with, given that the other three recognize that they have doctrinal issues with the UGCC that they don't with each other. How confused this man is.
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