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Author Topic: School Religion Worksheet  (Read 9908 times) Average Rating: 0
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TinaG
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« on: December 15, 2009, 03:34:50 PM »

Just thought I'd share my first experience with "multiculturism" in the public schools.  When I came home yesterday I went through my kids' homework and take home papers and found my 2nd grader had completed a worksheet in class about the holiday of Ramadan and the religion of Islam.  I was kind of surprised but maybe I shouldn't have been.  What won't be a surprise is when the class fails to do one about Christianity and the celebration of Christmas. 
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 03:37:20 PM »

I don't really see the problem in learning about Islam... though 2nd grade sounds really young. I don't think I took a World Cultures class till Junior High.
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 03:41:49 PM »

Agreed.  NOthing wrong with learning about Islam, but I don't think kids as young as 7 are going to understand and comprehend religious tenets of other faiths. 
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 03:45:18 PM »

I don't really see the problem in learning about Islam... though 2nd grade sounds really young. I don't think I took a World Cultures class till Junior High.

I'd probably delay it to 5th or 6th grade, once they have a better concept of multiculturalism to begin with.  I do think, though, that if the school will teach kids about Islam's beliefs, they need to give equal time to the other major "faith traditions," including Christianity.  Fairness above all in our education, right?
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 03:58:50 PM »

The worksheet seemed pretty straightfoward - Mohammed is the founder of the religion of Islam; the Quran is the holy book of Islam, yata yata yata.  I asked my 7 yo what he learned about Islam and like most times you question kids about what they learned he just said, "I dunno".   If he brings one home about Hannukah I'll feel better about this whole thing, but so far nothing. 
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 04:29:12 PM »

The worksheet seemed pretty straightfoward - Mohammed is the founder of the religion of Islam; the Quran is the holy book of Islam, yata yata yata.  I asked my 7 yo what he learned about Islam and like most times you question kids about what they learned he just said, "I dunno".   If he brings one home about Hannukah I'll feel better about this whole thing, but so far nothing. 

They might want to spread it out a bit? Otherwise, I can see a 7 year old coming home from doing Islam on Monday, Judaism on Tuesday, Hinduism on Wednesday, etc., and being completely confused.
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 05:40:31 PM »

I wish I knew a lot more about Islam when I was 7 other than reading about Muhammad in dusty 1950's middle school history books.  I have no objections to Islam being introduced to 7 year olds.

Disclaimer: I took Algebra I as a 3rd grader, 8 years old, for one class at middle school and had time to read in my school's library
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 06:01:11 PM »

I wish I knew a lot more about Islam when I was 7 other than reading about Muhammad in dusty 1950's middle school history books.  I have no objections to Islam being introduced to 7 year olds.

Disclaimer: I took Algebra I as a 3rd grader, 8 years old, for one class at middle school and had time to read in my school's library

Be careful what you wish for.  Go too far down the "know more" path and you would have been liable to find some scary stuff.
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 06:07:11 PM »

I wish I knew a lot more about Islam when I was 7 other than reading about Muhammad in dusty 1950's middle school history books.  I have no objections to Islam being introduced to 7 year olds.

Be careful what you wish for.  Go too far down the "know more" path and you would have been liable to find some scary stuff.

Sometimes, knowing more helps understand situations better or from other perspectives.  We can discuss that 7 years old is too young to understand Islam and I can't speak for every voracious reader (like I was) at that tender age.
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:05:33 PM »

Seems like a good thing to me.  Kids are awful about teasing kids who look different or do "strange" things so teaching them why some people dress differently or eat odd things or don't eat some things can help them see their peers as more ordinary, thereby lessening bullying. 
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:11:01 PM »

I don't think the school should be teaching any religion to young children; rather, I think it's the parents' responsibility. 
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 11:59:01 PM »

I don't think the school should be teaching any religion to young children; rather, I think it's the parents' responsibility. 

I don't see any harm in basic introductory information for major religions in a school setting.  In this area (SW Missouri, for those who don't know Wink), I bet you'd be hard pressed to find many parents who know the basic tenets of Islam or could explain Buddhism to their kids.  I see it as the parents' responsibility to teach their own religion to their children, preferably by deed more than by word.  If they want to approach a discussion on other religions, great, but for those kids whose parents don't know the information, why not have the school give an overview?  I believe it's integral to understanding culture, which is invaluable to understanding humanity in general but also in living in a modern, global society.
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2009, 12:28:02 AM »

I don't think the school should be teaching any religion to young children; rather, I think it's the parents' responsibility. 

  In this area (SW Missouri, for those who don't know Wink), I bet you'd be hard pressed to find many parents who know the basic tenets of Islam or could explain Buddhism to their kids.
You say that like it's a bad thing.  Cheesy  I understand what you're saying, I just disagree.  If I'm blessed to have children someday, I don't want them getting some flowery, PC version. 
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« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2009, 12:37:59 AM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.
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« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2009, 01:35:10 AM »

Tina G
Please keep us updated. I too hope your child brings home something about Hannukah.

I would be astounded if there is ever anything positive regarding Christianity.

I wouldn't be surprised if Judaism and Christianity get skipped over and next up will be nature religions, or Native American religion, then maybe Hinduism or Budhism; then it will be time for animist religion and so on.
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« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2009, 10:27:45 AM »

Seems like a good thing to me.  Kids are awful about teasing kids who look different or do "strange" things so teaching them why some people dress differently or eat odd things or don't eat some things can help them see their peers as more ordinary, thereby lessening bullying.  

That is so true - and for our Orthodox kids just as much.  I realized a couple of weeks ago that I've been unsuccesful in getting my kids to cross themselves before they eat their lunch at school.  They don't want to appear odd to their friends.  I went to have lunch with them (2 separate cafeteria lunches in one day - yuck!) and of course before I started eating I crossed myself.  I tried to get both of them to cross themselves but they were too embarrased.  My 7 yo's friends were giggling and imitating what I did so I took it as an opportunity to ask them whether they thanked God for their food before they ate, and that God gives us everything we need so we should always thank him.  I hope it made an impression on them, and I'm glad the cafeteria ladies didn't see me - I might have been turned in to the principal for spreading subversive propaganda.   Wink   (My 9 yo actually got sent to the principal last year because he used the word "hell".  Cafeteria lady thought he said "go to..." when he was actually in a discussion with his friends about heaven and hell - he was really saying that if you don't believe in God, you go to hell)

This is one of the best schools in the area and I really believe that many of the teachers are probably practicing Christians so I'm not worried about any of the weird stuff you hear about.  Now the next strange thing is going to be the sex education info.  Gosh, just let me keep a serious face on when I have to deal with that whole issue.
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« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2009, 11:16:34 AM »

 Smiley

Your lunch experience reminds me of being taken to church for harvest festival by my school. We were all told to sit down on the pews and of course I leant forward to say a prayer, because that's what my mum had taught me to do when you first come into church. My teacher (poor lady, I was a handful) saw me leaning on my hand with my eyes shut and decided to take a firm line and called out 'Stop ignoring me RIGHT NOW!'

To be fair, she was very nice if a little bewildered when I explained.
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2009, 11:43:28 AM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said. 

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2009, 11:49:25 AM »

I don't think the school should be teaching any religion to young children; rather, I think it's the parents' responsibility. 

  In this area (SW Missouri, for those who don't know Wink), I bet you'd be hard pressed to find many parents who know the basic tenets of Islam or could explain Buddhism to their kids.
You say that like it's a bad thing.  Cheesy  I understand what you're saying, I just disagree.  If I'm blessed to have children someday, I don't want them getting some flowery, PC version. 

No, you can't disagree!   laugh  J/K, I see where you're coming from.  The schools don't really have much choice in teaching a PC version, though, in the interest of separation of church and state.  Mr. Y can explain this much better than I since he has to be careful of crossing that line when he talks about the Catholic church's influence on Spanish culture.  Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2009, 11:53:40 AM »

Tina G
Please keep us updated. I too hope your child brings home something about Hannukah.

I would be astounded if there is ever anything positive regarding Christianity.

I wouldn't be surprised if Judaism and Christianity get skipped over and next up will be nature religions, or Native American religion, then maybe Hinduism or Budhism; then it will be time for animist religion and so on.

It probably depends on what religions are common in the community for that school.  If they have some Hindus, they'll probably hear about Hinduism.  I think Christianity is so common in the US that it's taken for granted that kids know enough about it already and probably don't need to have the basics explained to them.
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« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2009, 12:04:02 PM »

I would be astounded if there is ever anything positive regarding Christianity.
Same here.

A friend, who had his daughter in public school, attended her 'Winter Celebration' event at school. They sang songs about snow, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and the Solstice; conspicuous in its absence was any mention of Christmas.

Typical.

What a shame that money coerced from us is spent in such a manner.
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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2009, 12:10:43 PM »

I would be astounded if there is ever anything positive regarding Christianity.
Same here.

A friend, who had his daughter in public school, attended her 'Winter Celebration' event at school. They sang songs about snow, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and the Solstice; conspicuous in its absence was any mention of Christmas.

Typical.

What a shame that money coerced from us is spent in such a manner.

I was in chorus in Junior High, and I remember singing songs that had words like "Gloria in excelsis, Deo". I don't remember much about them, but wouldn't such a song be from the Christian tradition?
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2009, 12:16:11 PM »

I would be astounded if there is ever anything positive regarding Christianity.
Same here.

A friend, who had his daughter in public school, attended her 'Winter Celebration' event at school. They sang songs about snow, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and the Solstice; conspicuous in its absence was any mention of Christmas.

Typical.

What a shame that money coerced from us is spent in such a manner.

Sad, isn't it? I'm just waiting for the day when I hear some little child asking her mother, 'Why is it called Christmas when I don't know what 'Christ' or 'Mass' means?'

They have been playing 'Christmas' songs at the local shops since late November. At least one good result is that everywhere you go, the till staff are thoroughly fed up with all the mind-numbing rubbish and some near us are campaigning to have proper carols or nothing!
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2009, 12:29:27 PM »


I have an issue with this.

I thought we had a "separation of church and state"....and that is the reason we can't wish ANYone Merry Christmas, have Christmas parties, or mention Christ in our public schools!  So, why can we mention Ramadan, Muhammad, etc.

My sister's kids attend public school.  There was no Christmas Party (it was a Winter Blast), no Christmas Break from school (Winter Break), etc.  When I asked the kids to sing Christmas carols, they didn't know any.  However, they were very happy to sing me the Dreidel song and Happy Hannukah.  How come they know those songs, and not "We Wish you a Merry Christmas?"

Where is the equality?

If they are not going to learn about Christianity, then they shouldn't be learning about Judaism, Islam, Hiduism, etc...until it's part of their studies when they are older.

Sometimes, I get so fed up with all of this.  It's really sad. 

I am all for not making fun of or inhibiting other faiths....but, don't inhibit the majority, either.  Majority is Christian...why can't we celebrate Christmas openly?  Why do we have to stop and think "who" am I speaking with?  If I wish them Merry Christmas, I might not only offend them, but, be breaking the "rules"....and get in trouble.

Oh my gosh!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!   Wink


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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2009, 01:13:54 PM »

I would be astounded if there is ever anything positive regarding Christianity.
Same here.

A friend, who had his daughter in public school, attended her 'Winter Celebration' event at school. They sang songs about snow, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and the Solstice; conspicuous in its absence was any mention of Christmas.

Typical.

What a shame that money coerced from us is spent in such a manner.

I was in chorus in Junior High, and I remember singing songs that had words like "Gloria in excelsis, Deo". I don't remember much about them, but wouldn't such a song be from the Christian tradition?
Sneaks in because most school children don't speak Latin (my son's school sang it Gaudemus hodie yesterday).
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« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2009, 01:17:43 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said. 

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.

No, they aren't.  Christians in the Middle East, for example, know to keep aware from men with beards and a callous dot on their forehead.  For their own safety.

Maybe we will send you  some down from Thomson to teach y'all there.
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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2009, 01:21:14 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Why wait?  I taught my kids about Mr. Stranger Danger when they were young.  Why not wolves seeking the ruin of souls (and yes, they have shown they are after your kid).
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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2009, 01:40:47 PM »

I would be astounded if there is ever anything positive regarding Christianity.
Same here.

A friend, who had his daughter in public school, attended her 'Winter Celebration' event at school. They sang songs about snow, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and the Solstice; conspicuous in its absence was any mention of Christmas.

Typical.

What a shame that money coerced from us is spent in such a manner.
I was in chorus in Junior High, and I remember singing songs that had words like "Gloria in excelsis, Deo". I don't remember much about them, but wouldn't such a song be from the Christian tradition?
So your Junior High chorus wasn't part of my friend's daughter's 'Winter Celebration' then.

Thanks for establishing that.
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2009, 01:56:04 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said. 

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.

No, they aren't.  Christians in the Middle East, for example, know to keep aware from men with beards and a callous dot on their forehead.  For their own safety.

Maybe we will send you  some down from Thomson to teach y'all there.

We're not talking about Christians in the Middle East.  What they teach their kids is up to them.  Even so, if everyone, "men with beards and callous dots" included, taught their children not to hate and fear we might have a nicer world.  Call me an idealistic hippie, but children don't start out life with burning racism in their veins.  If they can be taught to hate, can they not be taught to love?
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« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2009, 02:10:24 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said. 

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.

No, they aren't.  Christians in the Middle East, for example, know to keep aware from men with beards and a callous dot on their forehead.  For their own safety.

Maybe we will send you  some down from Thomson to teach y'all there.

We're not talking about Christians in the Middle East.  What they teach their kids is up to them.  Even so, if everyone, "men with beards and callous dots" included, taught their children not to hate and fear we might have a nicer world.  Call me an idealistic hippie, but children don't start out life with burning racism in their veins.  If they can be taught to hate, can they not be taught to love?

Well said.  Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2009, 02:12:19 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said. 

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.

No, they aren't.  Christians in the Middle East, for example, know to keep aware from men with beards and a callous dot on their forehead.  For their own safety.

Maybe we will send you  some down from Thomson to teach y'all there.

We're not talking about Christians in the Middle East.  What they teach their kids is up to them.  Even so, if everyone, "men with beards and callous dots" included, taught their children not to hate and fear we might have a nicer world.

But they don't: they don't there and they don't here.  We have more than our share of men with beards and the prayer mark on the forehead, and if you listen and understand what they say (and I do), you would know what we are talking about.  If may want to make a distinction as to jurisdiction and law between here and there, but they a la fatwah against Salman Rushdie, do not.

Quote
  Call me an idealistic hippie,

I believer the term is naive.

Quote
but children don't start out life with burning racism in their veins. 

I didn't say anything racist: just the FACT that there are those out there who want to hurt you.


Quote
If they can be taught to hate, can they not be taught to love?

I'm all for loving your enemy, but to do that you have to be capable of identifying your enemy.
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« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2009, 02:13:09 PM »

I would be astounded if there is ever anything positive regarding Christianity.
Same here.

A friend, who had his daughter in public school, attended her 'Winter Celebration' event at school. They sang songs about snow, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and the Solstice; conspicuous in its absence was any mention of Christmas.

Typical.

What a shame that money coerced from us is spent in such a manner.
I was in chorus in Junior High, and I remember singing songs that had words like "Gloria in excelsis, Deo". I don't remember much about them, but wouldn't such a song be from the Christian tradition?
So your Junior High chorus wasn't part of my friend's daughter's 'Winter Celebration' then.

Thanks for establishing that.
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« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2009, 02:26:23 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said. 

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.

No, they aren't.  Christians in the Middle East, for example, know to keep aware from men with beards and a callous dot on their forehead.  For their own safety.

Maybe we will send you  some down from Thomson to teach y'all there.

We're not talking about Christians in the Middle East.  What they teach their kids is up to them.  Even so, if everyone, "men with beards and callous dots" included, taught their children not to hate and fear we might have a nicer world.

But they don't: they don't there and they don't here.  We have more than our share of men with beards and the prayer mark on the forehead, and if you listen and understand what they say (and I do), you would know what we are talking about.  If may want to make a distinction as to jurisdiction and law between here and there, but they a la fatwah against Salman Rushdie, do not.

They? All of them? Cor, didn't it take ages interviewing all the men with beards and prayer marks to make sure they were all saying the same thing?



Quote
I didn't say anything racist: just the FACT that there are those out there who want to hurt you.

Sure there are people out there who want to hurt you. Where one sails close to racism is where you prejudge people you've never met, on the grounds that they (and millions like them) look suspiciously like the relatively small number of people, that you know want to hurt you.

How would you feel if women coming to your church in headscarves found that people were mistaking them for Islamic fundamentalists and treating them differently?
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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2009, 02:40:22 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said. 

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.

No, they aren't.  Christians in the Middle East, for example, know to keep aware from men with beards and a callous dot on their forehead.  For their own safety.

Maybe we will send you  some down from Thomson to teach y'all there.

We're not talking about Christians in the Middle East.  What they teach their kids is up to them.  Even so, if everyone, "men with beards and callous dots" included, taught their children not to hate and fear we might have a nicer world.

But they don't: they don't there and they don't here.  We have more than our share of men with beards and the prayer mark on the forehead, and if you listen and understand what they say (and I do), you would know what we are talking about.  If may want to make a distinction as to jurisdiction and law between here and there, but they a la fatwah against Salman Rushdie, do not.

They? All of them? Cor, didn't it take ages interviewing all the men with beards and prayer marks to make sure they were all saying the same thing?

Not really. Just pay attention to the one in the minbar.

http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/1206/terrorists_Omar_Abdel_RahmanImage1.jpg


Quote
Quote
I did not say anything racist: Just the FACT that there are those out there who want to hurt you.

Sure there are people out there who want to hurt you. Where one Sails close to racism is where you prejudge people you've never met, on the grounds that they (and millions like them) look suspiciously like the relatively small number of people, that you know want to hurt you.

Only takes a dozen or so.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/National_Park_Service_9-11_Statue_of_Liberty_and_WTC_fire.jpg

and I've been around far, FAR more than a dozen or so of them.

Quote
How would you feel if women coming to your church in headscarves found that people were mistaking them for Islamic fundamentalists and treating them differently?
LOL.  In my (Antiochian) parish, even the converts wear headscarves.
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« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2009, 02:47:31 PM »

Let me reiterate that it is a good idea for American school children to know more about Islam in order to counteract the anti-Islam (or anti-American) messages seen on social networking groups.

Many school systems know that there is no official school prayer; however, that doesn't mean Christianity (or the concept of God) can't be taught.  Perhaps in today's world many school children come from homes where families either attend "Megachurches" or are agnostic to the extent that knowledge of Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism is necessary.

Until the 8th grade, I attended schools where 15% of the student body was Jewish; hence, I learned Jewish holidays and customs quite quickly.  I also went to school with Iranian Christians (Chaldeans, I think), Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus but not other Orthodox Christians ... hmmmm.  I guess I didn't turn out that badly after all.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2009, 03:07:19 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said.  

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.

No, they aren't.  Christians in the Middle East, for example, know to keep aware from men with beards and a callous dot on their forehead.  For their own safety.

Maybe we will send you  some down from Thomson to teach y'all there.

We're not talking about Christians in the Middle East.  What they teach their kids is up to them.  Even so, if everyone, "men with beards and callous dots" included, taught their children not to hate and fear we might have a nicer world.

But they don't: they don't there and they don't here.  

They don't or they can't?  You make it sound like it is sheerly impossible to change a culture.  It's very difficult and takes a lot of time but it's possible.  It wasn't so long ago that you had to sit at the back of the bus if you were black.  African Americans still deal with racism today but we're slowly changing people's minds.  

Quote
 If may want to make a distinction as to jurisdiction and law between here and there, but they a la fatwah against Salman Rushdie, do not.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying here.  

Quote
Quote
 Call me an idealistic hippie,

I believer the term is naive.

Gee, thanks.   Roll Eyes

Quote
Quote
but children don't start out life with burning racism in their veins.

I didn't say anything racist: just the FACT that there are those out there who want to hurt you.

I didn't say you did say anything racist, but the situation you describe is racism, IMO.  I know there are cruel people in the world and I agree that we also have to teach our children to be wise as serpents, etc., etc.  But then again, when you say people with beards and prayer callouses are going to hurt you, can you be 100% sure that every single one of those people is out to get you?  Is there really no such thing as a non-violent devout Muslim (e.g.)?


Quote
Quote
If they can be taught to hate, can they not be taught to love?

I'm all for loving your enemy, but to do that you have to be capable of identifying your enemy.

My question, though, is who decides they're your enemy?  Maybe I am naive, as you say, and maybe I misinterpret the scriptures I read, but I don't think Christ called anyone His enemy until they identified themselves as His enemy.  For us to do the same requires us to have either supernatural discernment or to know the individual instead of relying on racial/religious stereotypes to think for us.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 03:08:37 PM by EofK » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2009, 03:07:56 PM »

I would be astounded if there is ever anything positive regarding Christianity.
Same here.

A friend, who had his daughter in public school, attended her 'Winter Celebration' event at school. They sang songs about snow, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and the Solstice; conspicuous in its absence was any mention of Christmas.

Typical.

What a shame that money coerced from us is spent in such a manner.
I was in chorus in Junior High, and I remember singing songs that had words like "Gloria in excelsis, Deo". I don't remember much about them, but wouldn't such a song be from the Christian tradition?
So your Junior High chorus wasn't part of my friend's daughter's 'Winter Celebration' then.

Thanks for establishing that.

My point, of course, was that you were protesting too much, to the point of creating a straw man. But you knew that Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2009, 03:10:17 PM »

I would be astounded if there is ever anything positive regarding Christianity.
Same here.

A friend, who had his daughter in public school, attended her 'Winter Celebration' event at school. They sang songs about snow, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and the Solstice; conspicuous in its absence was any mention of Christmas.

Typical.

What a shame that money coerced from us is spent in such a manner.
I was in chorus in Junior High, and I remember singing songs that had words like "Gloria in excelsis, Deo". I don't remember much about them, but wouldn't such a song be from the Christian tradition?
So your Junior High chorus wasn't part of my friend's daughter's 'Winter Celebration' then.

Thanks for establishing that.

My point, of course, was that you were protesting too much, to the point of creating a straw man. But you knew that Smiley

I didn't know it had so recent that you were in Junior High.  Btw, did you speak Latin?
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2009, 03:16:14 PM »

 Roll Eyes I only brought the chorus bit up because it seemed to be most relevant. I certainly remember having "Christmas pizza parties" (not holiday parties) and "Christmas break" (not Kwanzaa break) in public school. I remember making an off hand remark that certain Christian teachers found disrespectful in school, and they called in my parents because I would dare to speak ill of Christianity. Anyway, I could go on, but the point is, Christianity has not been as removed from public schools as some posters might think it has. I doubt things have changed much since I was in school in the early 90's.
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2009, 03:20:40 PM »


But they don't: they don't there and they don't here.  We have more than our share of men with beards and the prayer mark on the forehead, and if you listen and understand what they say (and I do), you would know what we are talking about.  If may want to make a distinction as to jurisdiction and law between here and there, but they a la fatwah against Salman Rushdie, do not.

They? All of them? Cor, didn't it take ages interviewing all the men with beards and prayer marks to make sure they were all saying the same thing?

 laugh  That's what I was trying to say!

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« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2009, 03:22:05 PM »

Roll Eyes I only brought the chorus bit up because it seemed to be most relevant. I certainly remember having "Christmas pizza parties" (not holiday parties) and "Christmas break" (not Kwanzaa break) in public school. I remember making an off hand remark that certain Christian teachers found disrespectful in school, and they called in my parents because I would dare to speak ill of Christianity. Anyway, I could go on, but the point is, Christianity has not been as removed from public schools as some posters might think it has. I doubt things have changed much since I was in school in the early 90's.

The biggest factor is always the school administration.  I know some public schools that are completely secular (no mention of religion of any sorts is allowed), some that allow displays of "minority faiths", and others that have no problem with religion.
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« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2009, 03:39:48 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said. 

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.

No, they aren't.  Christians in the Middle East, for example, know to keep aware from men with beards and a callous dot on their forehead.  For their own safety.

Maybe we will send you  some down from Thomson to teach y'all there.

We're not talking about Christians in the Middle East.  What they teach their kids is up to them.  Even so, if everyone, "men with beards and callous dots" included, taught their children not to hate and fear we might have a nicer world.  Call me an idealistic hippie, but children don't start out life with burning racism in their veins.  If they can be taught to hate, can they not be taught to love?

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You're an idealistic hippie.
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« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2009, 03:51:07 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said.  

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.

No, they aren't.  Christians in the Middle East, for example, know to keep aware from men with beards and a callous dot on their forehead.  For their own safety.

Maybe we will send you  some down from Thomson to teach y'all there.

We're not talking about Christians in the Middle East.  What they teach their kids is up to them.  Even so, if everyone, "men with beards and callous dots" included, taught their children not to hate and fear we might have a nicer world.

But they don't: they don't there and they don't here.  

They don't or they can't?  You make it sound like it is sheerly impossible to change a culture.

Sure can.  But not by denying that there is something wrong with it.

And IIRC, we were talking about a religion, certain sects of which are beyond repair.

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It's very difficult and takes a lot of time but it's possible.  It wasn't so long ago that you had to sit at the back of the bus if you were black.  African Americans still deal with racism today but we're slowly changing people's minds.  

You have to show them that they are in the wrong first.  Islamists do not take constructive criticism from infidels.


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If may want to make a distinction as to jurisdiction and law between here and there, but they a la fatwah against Salman Rushdie, do not.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying here.

That if you think you being in SW MO makes a difference to Islamists, think again.



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but children don't start out life with burning racism in their veins.

I didn't say anything racist: just the FACT that there are those out there who want to hurt you.

I didn't say you did say anything racist, but the situation you describe is racism, IMO.  I know there are cruel people in the world and I agree that we also have to teach our children to be wise as serpents, etc., etc.  But then again, when you say people with beards and prayer callouses are going to hurt you, can you be 100% sure that every single one of those people is out to get you?  Is there really no such thing as a non-violent devout Muslim (e.g.)?

Sure. Can you tell the difference?


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If they can be taught to hate, can they not be taught to love?

I'm all for loving your enemy, but to do that you have to be capable of identifying your enemy.

My question, though, is who decides they're your enemy?  Maybe I am naive, as you say, and maybe I misinterpret the scriptures I read,

How would you interpret this "scripture"?:
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O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. Qur'an 5:51
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Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. 9:29.

Not that that matters: it matters how the bloke with his finger on the trigger interprets them.

Btw, the Muslim commentators take it that Sura 9 does not start with the Basmallah, because it is devoid of mercy.


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but I don't think Christ called anyone His enemy until they identified themselves as His enemy.  For us to do the same requires us to have either supernatural discernment or to know the individual instead of relying on racial/religious stereotypes to think for us.

Actually, quite the opposite: He did not need man's testimony about a man, for he knew what was in a man.  John 2:25.

Not all of them are that dangerous. Some are safe for our purposes.  I once was fine going to a Shi'ite shrine in Damascus filled with Iranian pilgrims, with a group of Hizbullah (with guns) who knew I had not submitted to Islam (btw, you are better off with Shi'ites then with Sunnis).  And I don't blend in the Middle East crowd: I'm quite white with blue eyes.  But I know what to say, ask etc. and handle a situation to winnow the Muslim wheat from the Islamist chaff.  I don't think you do.  Therefore, play it safe.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 03:59:54 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2009, 03:55:25 PM »

Roll Eyes I only brought the chorus bit up because it seemed to be most relevant. I certainly remember having "Christmas pizza parties" (not holiday parties) and "Christmas break" (not Kwanzaa break) in public school. I remember making an off hand remark that certain Christian teachers found disrespectful in school, and they called in my parents because I would dare to speak ill of Christianity. Anyway, I could go on, but the point is, Christianity has not been as removed from public schools as some posters might think it has. I doubt things have changed much since I was in school in the early 90's.

You might be surprised.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2009, 03:56:54 PM »

But a lot of problems could be circumvented if parents would just teach children some manners. Just tell them some families do things a little differently and we shouldn't make fun of them. I don't think most 1st or 2nd graders care about theology. They can learn about different religions when they're older.

Sure, manners would certainly help but it's not just a matter of keeping them from bullying each other.  Religion is a major factor in the course of human history, sociology, psychology, culinary practices, hygiene, politics, etc.  I would venture to say there is no subject taught that wasn't influenced at some point by religion; to understand our world today, we have to understand where we came from.  I'm not saying they need a masterclass in theology to learn about Islam.  As Tina pointed out, the worksheet just talked about the Ramadan holiday, who Mohammed was, etc.  In the words of David Letterman, 'nuff said. 

The other benefit to this that I see is that the more we teach our children about other cultures and religions, the less there is to fear.  Sensationalist journalism has banked on paranoia and fear of the unnamed "Them" to the point that I daily hear people calling anyone vaguely brown-skinned "towelheads" or whatever other disparaging and ingnorant names they can think of.  Children need to know that people are just different in some ways but deep down we're all human beings just trying to get through life, provide for our families, and hopefully come out a little better in the end for it all.  There's no reason to fear and hate each other because someone looks or acts differently.

No, they aren't.  Christians in the Middle East, for example, know to keep aware from men with beards and a callous dot on their forehead.  For their own safety.

Maybe we will send you  some down from Thomson to teach y'all there.

We're not talking about Christians in the Middle East.  What they teach their kids is up to them.  Even so, if everyone, "men with beards and callous dots" included, taught their children not to hate and fear we might have a nicer world.  Call me an idealistic hippie, but children don't start out life with burning racism in their veins.  If they can be taught to hate, can they not be taught to love?

[joke]
You're an idealistic hippie.
[/joke]

-Nick

I asked for it, didn't I?   laugh
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