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Author Topic: Nutrition and Diet  (Read 57665 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #945 on: June 23, 2012, 12:23:15 AM »

I still fail to see how eating a healthy diet with something approaching a proper daily intake of calories is the same as starvation.   
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« Reply #946 on: June 23, 2012, 12:29:12 AM »

Thanks for the link.  

My point though, was more along the lines of: In most cases, it's better to be obese than to starve to death.  I'm not saying it's always an either or, but the paleo style diets don't appear to be workable on a global level.  Maybe beans or what not can be grown at similar levels to grain, I don't know.

Also, from my personal experience, diet and exercise does affect weight gain/loss.  Does that mean it does with everyone? Of course not, but it also doesn't mean that the premise is wrong.




 

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« Reply #947 on: June 23, 2012, 09:23:55 AM »

I still fail to see how eating a healthy diet with something approaching a proper daily intake of calories is the same as starvation.   

I think the point is to test the hypotheses of "calories in calories out" as the basis of weight gain or loss.
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« Reply #948 on: June 23, 2012, 09:30:07 AM »

Thanks for the link.  

My point though, was more along the lines of: In most cases, it's better to be obese than to starve to death.  I'm not saying it's always an either or, but the paleo style diets don't appear to be workable on a global level.  Maybe beans or what not can be grown at similar levels to grain, I don't know.

Also, from my personal experience, diet and exercise does affect weight gain/loss.  Does that mean it does with everyone? Of course not, but it also doesn't mean that the premise is wrong.
 



Your premise that Obesity is a sign of nourishment may be wrong. If may me a sign of malnourishment. Poor populations have shown both concurrently. Skinny undernourished looking children along side of their obese mothers. The mothers were not cured of undernourishment nor were they eating the calories their kids should have been getting.
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« Reply #949 on: June 23, 2012, 10:55:41 AM »

I still fail to see how eating a healthy diet with something approaching a proper daily intake of calories is the same as starvation.   

I think the point is to test the hypotheses of "calories in calories out" as the basis of weight gain or loss.

Even the study your provide doesn't discount "calorie counting". It just says starving changes the amount of calories out to attemp to equal those available.

Better "calorie counting" means stabilizing the amount consumed and to INCREASE the amount used, by way of exercise.
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« Reply #950 on: June 23, 2012, 11:40:08 AM »

So Marc, how much time have you spent living in developing countries?   
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« Reply #951 on: June 23, 2012, 11:42:42 AM »

I still fail to see how eating a healthy diet with something approaching a proper daily intake of calories is the same as starvation.   

I think the point is to test the hypotheses of "calories in calories out" as the basis of weight gain or loss.

Even the study your provide doesn't discount "calorie counting". It just says starving changes the amount of calories out to attempt to equal those available.

Better "calorie counting" means stabilizing the amount consumed and to INCREASE the amount used, by way of exercise.

Youre right. It's just some more evidence. What you would need to do is read much more to understand the entire argument.

When you do you will find that what you suggest is a weak strategy ( not completely useless, just very weak).

When you exercise more, what happens? You get hungrier. When you get hungry you eat more. It's a nasty loop. And if you do the math, the amount of exercise you will need to do as you age becomes unworkable.

Take 30 minutes and listen to this lecture and then get back to me if you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6vpFV6Wkl4
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« Reply #952 on: June 23, 2012, 11:54:06 AM »

So Marc, how much time have you spent living in developing countries?   

Zero.... So don't take my word for anything, read the literature yourself.

BTW..Anecdotal evidence it the weakest of all. What Gary Taubes and others are trying to do is apply a more rigorous scientific standard to the question. "I lived there and witnessed such and such" is not very reliable.

I'll give you a specific example. Dr. Ancel Keys lived in Italy after the War. He observed the people around him eating certain foods. He also noted the very low rate of heart disease among them. Based on an observation, he made a correlation between the diet he observed and the low rate of heart problems. This is how we got the Mediterranean Diet.

Keys skipped a few steps in the Scientific Method. It turned out that the Diet he observed was a brief anomaly in the Italian Diet due to scarcity after the War. Their real diet is actually full of meat and fat.

BTW.. I wasn't at Gettysburg either but I am pretty sure I know who won and how the battle was fought.  Just sayin Smiley
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« Reply #953 on: June 23, 2012, 03:06:05 PM »

Sometimes you just have to get out of Kansas, Dorthy, in order to contextualize raw data.  For instance Chinese migrant workers eat a diet of mostly rice yet are fit and trim.  The upper classes eat a meat-centric diet and are as fat as Americans.  I don't get the complete rejection of the connection between calorie consumption and weight gain.  It just doesn't pair with reality. 
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« Reply #954 on: June 23, 2012, 03:54:26 PM »

Sometimes you just have to get out of Kansas, Dorthy, in order to contextualize raw data.  For instance Chinese migrant workers eat a diet of mostly rice yet are fit and trim.  The upper classes eat a meat-centric diet and are as fat as Americans.  I don't get the complete rejection of the connection between calorie consumption and weight gain.  It just doesn't pair with reality. 

Take and hour and watch the lecture I just posted. It will address your questions directly.

Here is is again so you dont need to scroll back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6vpFV6Wkl4
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« Reply #955 on: June 23, 2012, 07:30:17 PM »

This is an interesting thread, and I actually just stumbled across it. I don't view this particular forum too often, and somehow I never saw this thread. I haven't had a chance to scan all the previous posts, so hopefully i am not too repetitive.  Nutrition,diet and exercise aresome of my favorite subjects.  I have been  involved with either cardio or weight training almost daily for the last 45 yrs of my 59 yrs. For many yrs I was also involved in martial arts.

 I became very interested in nutrition about 35 yrs ago and have tried a variety of diets such as lacto-ovo vegetarian, High protein diets, body for life diet, zone diet and the Mediterranean diet during that time.  Currently I use kind of a of a blend of the zone-mediterranean diets.  I eat about 6-7 times per day. I usually only eat red meat once every 2 or 3 weeks and then only lean cuts.  I haven't eaten a hamburger from MacDonald's since 1978.  I do eat chicken and turkey most days but, no meat except fish on Wednesdays and Fridays. Sometimes I do not eat meat on the the other days of the week. I take in plenty of fish oil and olive oil. I routinely monitor cholesterol, triglycerides and PSA which gives me a fair idea how the diet is working.
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« Reply #956 on: June 23, 2012, 08:04:48 PM »

Thanks for the link.  

My point though, was more along the lines of: In most cases, it's better to be obese than to starve to death.  I'm not saying it's always an either or, but the paleo style diets don't appear to be workable on a global level.  Maybe beans or what not can be grown at similar levels to grain, I don't know.

Also, from my personal experience, diet and exercise does affect weight gain/loss.  Does that mean it does with everyone? Of course not, but it also doesn't mean that the premise is wrong. 

Your premise that Obesity is a sign of nourishment may be wrong.

That's not my premise.  My premise is that removing grain and other nasty neolithic foods from the worldwide diet would starve hundreds of millions of people to death. 

Also, I saw nothing in his presentation that came close to "scientific rigor."  I'm not doubting the guy's knowledge or even some of his conclusions, as I'm sure he knows a lot more than me about this, but without being familiar with the studies he cited, his examples could be cherry picking to reach spurious conclusions.  Sometimes renegades in their field are right, but sometimes they aren't.  There may be a lot of compelling evidence to refute his conclusions, but I doubt you're giving that stuff equal attention.

I am glad that the diet works for you though.

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« Reply #957 on: June 23, 2012, 11:26:18 PM »

Thanks for the link.  

My point though, was more along the lines of: In most cases, it's better to be obese than to starve to death.  I'm not saying it's always an either or, but the paleo style diets don't appear to be workable on a global level.  Maybe beans or what not can be grown at similar levels to grain, I don't know.

Also, from my personal experience, diet and exercise does affect weight gain/loss.  Does that mean it does with everyone? Of course not, but it also doesn't mean that the premise is wrong. 

Your premise that Obesity is a sign of nourishment may be wrong.

That's not my premise.  My premise is that removing grain and other nasty neolithic foods from the worldwide diet would starve hundreds of millions of people to death. 

Also, I saw nothing in his presentation that came close to "scientific rigor."  I'm not doubting the guy's knowledge or even some of his conclusions, as I'm sure he knows a lot more than me about this, but without being familiar with the studies he cited, his examples could be cherry picking to reach spurious conclusions.  Sometimes renegades in their field are right, but sometimes they aren't.  There may be a lot of compelling evidence to refute his conclusions, but I doubt you're giving that stuff equal attention.

I am glad that the diet works for you though.



Oh so youre saying if we stopped grain production overnight there would be a sudden food shortage.  I am sure that's true.

And you are saying that it's possible Taubes could be wrong based on the lecture we saw that was aimed at laypeople. I suppose that is also a true statement as far as it goes.

I would suggest that you then read his book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" which is meant to give enough detail to satisfy the standards of researchers and clinicians in the field.

Taubes has three ways to deliver his information. 1. The book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" which is 500 pages long and rigorously examines the issue of why we get fat and specifically the role of eating carbs. 2. The book "Why We Get Fat" which he calls the Reader Digest version of his first book, meant for the lay person. 3. Many lectures and articles which can be easily viewed and which are of course a condensed version of his viewpoint.

Here is one more great Authors@Google lecture. It's  by Robert Lustig M.D. on the obesity epidemic and the role sugar has played in it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOCPyheVesM&feature=relmfu


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« Reply #958 on: June 25, 2012, 04:40:08 AM »

The lecture was still weak on the point of Asian and other diets that are relatively high carb.  The problem isn't carbs per se but it is refined sugar in massive quantities.  There is a difference that Taubes skirts around.  Taubes also unfairly ignores that calorie consumption has gone from 2200 per day in the US to 2700 in the past 40 years.  Having a sedentary lifestyle and gorging isn't healthy.  And absolutely none of the science he presented supports the underlying idea of the paleo-diet. 
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« Reply #959 on: June 25, 2012, 10:09:15 AM »

The lecture was still weak on the point of Asian and other diets that are relatively high carb.  The problem isn't carbs per se but it is refined sugar in massive quantities.  There is a difference that Taubes skirts around.  Taubes also unfairly ignores that calorie consumption has gone from 2200 per day in the US to 2700 in the past 40 years.  Having a sedentary lifestyle and gorging isn't healthy.  And absolutely none of the science he presented supports the underlying idea of the paleo-diet. 

I think as you become more familiar with his position and the other people who agree with him you will find that they all agree about sugar. It is the center of the storm. if you cut sugar you will solve most of the problem. But some of this is tied together.
When saturated fat was wrongly vilified by researchers like Ancel Keys the reaction was to take it out of the food. But when you take out fat, food tastes like crap. So what they did was to replace it was the newly invented High Fructose Corn Syrup which is very cheap to make. Kids wont drink low fat milk. It tastes terrible. The solution was to then add chocolate.
Food industry profits soared and we got sicker.

Also, calorie consumption has risen but nearly all of it is sugar and carbs.

Here is another lecture given at Google Headquarters by Dr. Robert Lustig talking about sugar. He address many of your questions point for point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOCPyheVesM



 
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« Reply #960 on: June 25, 2012, 04:22:58 PM »

None of which have anything to do with the main premise of the paleo diet.  Essentially one needs to limit his sugar intake, not over eat in general and otherwise live a healthy lifestyle.  Pretending you are a cavemen and buying über expensive sweet potatoes rather than normal potatoes is a matter of aesthetics. 
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« Reply #961 on: June 25, 2012, 05:00:20 PM »

None of which have anything to do with the main premise of the paleo diet.  Essentially one needs to limit his sugar intake, not over eat in general and otherwise live a healthy lifestyle.  Pretending you are a cavemen and buying über expensive sweet potatoes rather than normal potatoes is a matter of aesthetics. 

Once again, it appears that you are unfamiliar with the Paleo Diet and what it recommends. 

Here. This is real short. Robb Wolfe author of the book "Paleo Solution"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnf_hk4tnQQ&feature=fvst

Or if you have a few minutes longer, this one has Lorin Cordain author of "The Paleo Diet" and "The Paleo Answer"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52A3ayfxfTs&feature=related
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« Reply #962 on: June 26, 2012, 05:16:46 AM »

Well no.  The point of the paleo-diet is channelling the inner cave man. 

The science is that eating too much sugar is bad for you.  How shocking and so not mainstream. 

This has nothing.  Nada.  Nichts.  Nichoho.  to do with trying to eat like a caveman.  This also explains why a Japanese diet high in rice produces excellent results. 
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« Reply #963 on: June 26, 2012, 09:03:33 AM »

What is nichoho?
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« Reply #964 on: June 26, 2012, 10:59:01 AM »

Well no.  The point of the paleo-diet is channelling the inner cave man.  

The science is that eating too much sugar is bad for you.  How shocking and so not mainstream.  

This has nothing.  Nada.  Nichts.  Nichoho.  to do with trying to eat like a caveman.  This also explains why a Japanese diet high in rice produces excellent results.  

Well no.  The point of the paleo-diet is channelling the inner cave man.


LOL..oh okay. I wasn't aware of that.

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

This also explains why a Japanese diet high in rice produces excellent results.  



Sauron already tried to pot shot the Japanese dietary habits without good effect.

Go back and read about it. If we adopted the Japanese Diet and some cultural habits we would indeed solve much of our Obesity problems and concurrently our high Heart Disease, Cancer and Diabetes rates.

The Japanese Diet is far far far closer to the idea's of Paleo eating then what we eat in the West. In fact, when Japanese Women come to the USA their rate of Breast Cancer soars to our levels in just a generation or two.

The conclusion should be that as we move closer to the Paleo recommendations the healthier the population. Japan is a great example... Catch up with the discussion please.  
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« Reply #965 on: June 27, 2012, 01:49:00 AM »

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

The premise of the paleo diet is that we as humans are unable to properly digest a whole range of foods due to evolution.  I've already posted an article from an actual evolutionary biologist pointing out that this is bunk.  That fact that actual nutritional science has a few coincidental overlaps with the paleo-diet doesn't mean that science "supports" the main premise of the paleo-diet. 

Is refusing to properly use the quote function a part of the paleo experience? 
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« Reply #966 on: June 27, 2012, 12:42:09 PM »

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

The premise of the paleo diet is that we as humans are unable to properly digest a whole range of foods due to evolution.  I've already posted an article from an actual evolutionary biologist pointing out that this is bunk.  That fact that actual nutritional science has a few coincidental overlaps with the paleo-diet doesn't mean that science "supports" the main premise of the paleo-diet.  

Is refusing to properly use the quote function a part of the paleo experience?  

In the first place there are many people who object to the Paleo diet and or low carb eating. The Food establishment is very rich and very entrenched. You will have an easy time finding people who will call it bunk. If you have found one and then end your inquiry I would say that is probably not a smart way to draw a final conclusion.  But feel free to do as you wish and accept or ignore what ever evidence suits your fancy.  

You still dont seem to have absorbed the case for a Low Carb or Paleo Diet. No one that I know of says you "cant digest a whole range of foods". You are once again shooting from the hip for some odd reason.  Read first and comment after, would be my suggestion for you.


Oh and the guy you posted is the most well known Paleo opponent. Ive seen him show up at conferences and debate some of the people I have mentioned and get shut down pretty thoroughly. You should also be informed that he was busted for what amounts to fraud when he tried to test his primary theory with an expensive experiment at his University. Go figure.
 
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« Reply #967 on: June 27, 2012, 10:10:14 PM »

Here is a great interview of Dr. Mary Vernon  about the results she gets with patients that she puts on a Low Carb diet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaquSijXJkQ&feature=g-vrec
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« Reply #968 on: June 28, 2012, 04:05:46 AM »

If sugar is bad for us then why do so many people tell me to eat fruit because it is 'healthier'? Oh how I hate that wretched fruit! It's purely psychological; that strange, wet, mushy watery feeling inside of my mouth when I bite into a fruit makes me want to vomit even though the taste is honestly not bad. I hate my bad eating habits. I know that I am well on my way toward obesity unless I make a change. I blame growing up with PKU; that seriously affected my early diet growing up and thus I never got used to eating healthy from a young age. I was already obese once in the past when I was 9-10.
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« Reply #969 on: June 28, 2012, 08:31:57 AM »

Dfux did I just read?
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« Reply #970 on: June 28, 2012, 09:07:23 AM »

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

The premise of the paleo diet is that we as humans are unable to properly digest a whole range of foods due to evolution.  I've already posted an article from an actual evolutionary biologist pointing out that this is bunk.  That fact that actual nutritional science has a few coincidental overlaps with the paleo-diet doesn't mean that science "supports" the main premise of the paleo-diet.  

Is refusing to properly use the quote function a part of the paleo experience?  

In the first place there are many people who object to the Paleo diet and or low carb eating. The Food establishment is very rich and very entrenched. You will have an easy time finding people who will call it bunk. If you have found one and then end your inquiry I would say that is probably not a smart way to draw a final conclusion.  But feel free to do as you wish and accept or ignore what ever evidence suits your fancy.  

You still dont seem to have absorbed the case for a Low Carb or Paleo Diet. No one that I know of says you "cant digest a whole range of foods". You are once again shooting from the hip for some odd reason.  Read first and comment after, would be my suggestion for you.


Oh and the guy you posted is the most well known Paleo opponent. Ive seen him show up at conferences and debate some of the people I have mentioned and get shut down pretty thoroughly. You should also be informed that he was busted for what amounts to fraud when he tried to test his primary theory with an expensive experiment at his University. Go figure.
 

You've said this multiple times over the life of this abortion.
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« Reply #971 on: June 28, 2012, 09:51:35 AM »

If sugar is bad for us then why do so many people tell me to eat fruit because it is 'healthier'? Oh how I hate that wretched fruit! It's purely psychological; that strange, wet, mushy watery feeling inside of my mouth when I bite into a fruit makes me want to vomit even though the taste is honestly not bad. I hate my bad eating habits. I know that I am well on my way toward obesity unless I make a change. I blame growing up with PKU; that seriously affected my early diet growing up and thus I never got used to eating healthy from a young age. I was already obese once in the past when I was 9-10.

That's a great question. Let me take a swing at it but I would urge you to listen to what Dr. Robert Lustig, an expert on the effects of sugar and obesity has to say.

Whenever nature gives us fructose it is always wrapped into lots of fiber. The actual amount of fructose in most fruit (grapes are an exception) is not all that high. When you eat the fiber it greatly slows the absorption of the sugar so you system does not spike insulin as high to cope with it. For example, cane sugar comes in what for all intents and purposes something like a tree branch. You would need to do lots of chewing through all the fiber to get at the sweetness.

On the other hand if you want to lose weight via a low carb diet you should refrain from all fruit until you drop the weight. Once your system has had time to acclimate to accessing your body fat for it's energy you can try adding fruit back in. Berries are understood to be low carb lower sugar fruit. You can eat it with heavy cream ( full fat cream has no carbs).

Eat meat and fish and eggs and vegetables and fat from butter olive oil and the like for a couple of months and your overweight will melt off and if you are typical, all your health markers will improve.

There are several ways to approach this. The New Atkins Diet is still the best if you need a step by step guide. You can also get "The Art and Science of Low Carb Living " by Dr. Phinney.    And of course the Paleo Diet which starts from an evolutionary template for Diet but gets you to the exact same place as Atkins.

Here is a lecture by Dr. Lustig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOCPyheVesM
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« Reply #972 on: June 28, 2012, 09:56:44 AM »

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

The premise of the paleo diet is that we as humans are unable to properly digest a whole range of foods due to evolution.  I've already posted an article from an actual evolutionary biologist pointing out that this is bunk.  That fact that actual nutritional science has a few coincidental overlaps with the paleo-diet doesn't mean that science "supports" the main premise of the paleo-diet.  

Is refusing to properly use the quote function a part of the paleo experience?  

In the first place there are many people who object to the Paleo diet and or low carb eating. The Food establishment is very rich and very entrenched. You will have an easy time finding people who will call it bunk. If you have found one and then end your inquiry I would say that is probably not a smart way to draw a final conclusion.  But feel free to do as you wish and accept or ignore what ever evidence suits your fancy.  

You still dont seem to have absorbed the case for a Low Carb or Paleo Diet. No one that I know of says you "cant digest a whole range of foods". You are once again shooting from the hip for some odd reason.  Read first and comment after, would be my suggestion for you.


Oh and the guy you posted is the most well known Paleo opponent. Ive seen him show up at conferences and debate some of the people I have mentioned and get shut down pretty thoroughly. You should also be informed that he was busted for what amounts to fraud when he tried to test his primary theory with an expensive experiment at his University. Go figure.
 

You've said this multiple times over the life of this abortion.
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« Reply #973 on: June 28, 2012, 10:34:15 AM »

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

The premise of the paleo diet is that we as humans are unable to properly digest a whole range of foods due to evolution.  I've already posted an article from an actual evolutionary biologist pointing out that this is bunk.  That fact that actual nutritional science has a few coincidental overlaps with the paleo-diet doesn't mean that science "supports" the main premise of the paleo-diet.  

Is refusing to properly use the quote function a part of the paleo experience?  

In the first place there are many people who object to the Paleo diet and or low carb eating. The Food establishment is very rich and very entrenched. You will have an easy time finding people who will call it bunk. If you have found one and then end your inquiry I would say that is probably not a smart way to draw a final conclusion.  But feel free to do as you wish and accept or ignore what ever evidence suits your fancy.  

You still dont seem to have absorbed the case for a Low Carb or Paleo Diet. No one that I know of says you "cant digest a whole range of foods". You are once again shooting from the hip for some odd reason.  Read first and comment after, would be my suggestion for you.


Oh and the guy you posted is the most well known Paleo opponent. Ive seen him show up at conferences and debate some of the people I have mentioned and get shut down pretty thoroughly. You should also be informed that he was busted for what amounts to fraud when he tried to test his primary theory with an expensive experiment at his University. Go figure.
 

You've said this multiple times over the life of this abortion.
This thread is the gift that keeps giving, though no one wants to receive it.

There is a very simple solution for you if you have lost interest. Should I spell it out?
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« Reply #974 on: June 28, 2012, 10:35:47 AM »

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

The premise of the paleo diet is that we as humans are unable to properly digest a whole range of foods due to evolution.  I've already posted an article from an actual evolutionary biologist pointing out that this is bunk.  That fact that actual nutritional science has a few coincidental overlaps with the paleo-diet doesn't mean that science "supports" the main premise of the paleo-diet.  

Is refusing to properly use the quote function a part of the paleo experience?  

In the first place there are many people who object to the Paleo diet and or low carb eating. The Food establishment is very rich and very entrenched. You will have an easy time finding people who will call it bunk. If you have found one and then end your inquiry I would say that is probably not a smart way to draw a final conclusion.  But feel free to do as you wish and accept or ignore what ever evidence suits your fancy.  

You still dont seem to have absorbed the case for a Low Carb or Paleo Diet. No one that I know of says you "cant digest a whole range of foods". You are once again shooting from the hip for some odd reason.  Read first and comment after, would be my suggestion for you.


Oh and the guy you posted is the most well known Paleo opponent. Ive seen him show up at conferences and debate some of the people I have mentioned and get shut down pretty thoroughly. You should also be informed that he was busted for what amounts to fraud when he tried to test his primary theory with an expensive experiment at his University. Go figure.
 

You've said this multiple times over the life of this abortion.
This thread is the gift that keeps giving, though no one wants to receive it.

There is a very simple solution for you if you have lost interest. Should I spell it out?

The interest has changed.  Initially, it was about learning more about the Paleo diet and its detractors.

Now it's about schadenfreude.
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« Reply #975 on: June 28, 2012, 10:45:32 AM »

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

The premise of the paleo diet is that we as humans are unable to properly digest a whole range of foods due to evolution.  I've already posted an article from an actual evolutionary biologist pointing out that this is bunk.  That fact that actual nutritional science has a few coincidental overlaps with the paleo-diet doesn't mean that science "supports" the main premise of the paleo-diet.  

Is refusing to properly use the quote function a part of the paleo experience?  

In the first place there are many people who object to the Paleo diet and or low carb eating. The Food establishment is very rich and very entrenched. You will have an easy time finding people who will call it bunk. If you have found one and then end your inquiry I would say that is probably not a smart way to draw a final conclusion.  But feel free to do as you wish and accept or ignore what ever evidence suits your fancy.  

You still dont seem to have absorbed the case for a Low Carb or Paleo Diet. No one that I know of says you "cant digest a whole range of foods". You are once again shooting from the hip for some odd reason.  Read first and comment after, would be my suggestion for you.


Oh and the guy you posted is the most well known Paleo opponent. Ive seen him show up at conferences and debate some of the people I have mentioned and get shut down pretty thoroughly. You should also be informed that he was busted for what amounts to fraud when he tried to test his primary theory with an expensive experiment at his University. Go figure.
 

You've said this multiple times over the life of this abortion.
This thread is the gift that keeps giving, though no one wants to receive it.

There is a very simple solution for you if you have lost interest. Should I spell it out?

The interest has changed.  Initially, it was about learning more about the Paleo diet and its detractors.

Now it's about schadenfreude.

I think if you read the op again and then my last post (two up from here) I think we are still on topic, more than most threads.
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« Reply #976 on: June 28, 2012, 12:41:25 PM »

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

The premise of the paleo diet is that we as humans are unable to properly digest a whole range of foods due to evolution.  I've already posted an article from an actual evolutionary biologist pointing out that this is bunk.  That fact that actual nutritional science has a few coincidental overlaps with the paleo-diet doesn't mean that science "supports" the main premise of the paleo-diet.  

Is refusing to properly use the quote function a part of the paleo experience?  

In the first place there are many people who object to the Paleo diet and or low carb eating. The Food establishment is very rich and very entrenched. You will have an easy time finding people who will call it bunk. If you have found one and then end your inquiry I would say that is probably not a smart way to draw a final conclusion.  But feel free to do as you wish and accept or ignore what ever evidence suits your fancy.  

You still dont seem to have absorbed the case for a Low Carb or Paleo Diet. No one that I know of says you "cant digest a whole range of foods". You are once again shooting from the hip for some odd reason.  Read first and comment after, would be my suggestion for you.


Oh and the guy you posted is the most well known Paleo opponent. Ive seen him show up at conferences and debate some of the people I have mentioned and get shut down pretty thoroughly. You should also be informed that he was busted for what amounts to fraud when he tried to test his primary theory with an expensive experiment at his University. Go figure.
 

You've said this multiple times over the life of this abortion.
This thread is the gift that keeps giving, though no one wants to receive it.

There is a very simple solution for you if you have lost interest. Should I spell it out?
Unfortunately, I'm required to read this thread. Tongue
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« Reply #977 on: June 28, 2012, 01:05:31 PM »

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

The premise of the paleo diet is that we as humans are unable to properly digest a whole range of foods due to evolution.  I've already posted an article from an actual evolutionary biologist pointing out that this is bunk.  That fact that actual nutritional science has a few coincidental overlaps with the paleo-diet doesn't mean that science "supports" the main premise of the paleo-diet.  

Is refusing to properly use the quote function a part of the paleo experience?  

In the first place there are many people who object to the Paleo diet and or low carb eating. The Food establishment is very rich and very entrenched. You will have an easy time finding people who will call it bunk. If you have found one and then end your inquiry I would say that is probably not a smart way to draw a final conclusion.  But feel free to do as you wish and accept or ignore what ever evidence suits your fancy.  

You still dont seem to have absorbed the case for a Low Carb or Paleo Diet. No one that I know of says you "cant digest a whole range of foods". You are once again shooting from the hip for some odd reason.  Read first and comment after, would be my suggestion for you.


Oh and the guy you posted is the most well known Paleo opponent. Ive seen him show up at conferences and debate some of the people I have mentioned and get shut down pretty thoroughly. You should also be informed that he was busted for what amounts to fraud when he tried to test his primary theory with an expensive experiment at his University. Go figure.
 

You've said this multiple times over the life of this abortion.
This thread is the gift that keeps giving, though no one wants to receive it.

There is a very simple solution for you if you have lost interest. Should I spell it out?
Unfortunately, I'm required to read this thread. Tongue

Oh yeah.. Sorry dude.
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« Reply #978 on: June 29, 2012, 04:48:54 AM »

What is the benefit of strength building exercises? I'm starting to think that they are pointless and only for show rather than serving any real purpose. Most of the extremely tough guys I see who look like professional wrestlers have horrible stamina when it comes to jogging/running and performing tedious tasks. Is this why most military exercise routines seem to focus more on cardio rather than strength building?
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« Reply #979 on: June 29, 2012, 05:07:58 AM »

What is the benefit of strength building exercises?

It improves health in some ways, harms health in others; improves cognitive function very slightly, though it can also cause you to feel lethargic; it helps you lift things up and put them down, though sometimes it takes a while to recover; it can increase energy, or completely deplete you; it can have a positive impact on how people treat you (everything from intimate relationships to job offers), and it can also have a negative impact; it can help you feel better about yourself or more confident, and it can also sometimes cover up insecurities that you should really be dealing with in a better way; it can be fun, or very boring; it can be a way to spend time with someone (girlfriend, friend, etc.), or it might be taking time away from people; it can be a wise investment (of time, money, etc.), or a waste; it can give you the right to ask other online people "do you even lift?" ( Grin ) though you can do that even if you don't lift; it can help remind you to make healthy choices, or it can lull you into a false sense of wellness;  .... and so on.  In other words, it all depends on various factors in your life that we don't know about.
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« Reply #980 on: June 29, 2012, 07:47:57 AM »

What is the benefit of strength building exercises? I'm starting to think that they are pointless and only for show rather than serving any real purpose. Most of the extremely tough guys I see who look like professional wrestlers have horrible stamina when it comes to jogging/running and performing tedious tasks. Is this why most military exercise routines seem to focus more on cardio rather than strength building?

You are talking about two different things.  There is a marked difference between muscle building and muscle toning.  The big wrestlers do a lot of high weight/low rep work, which makes the muscle large and capable of lifting more weight, but over a short period of time.  Professional athletes such as long distance runners, cyclists, swimmers, etc do more low weight/high rep work, which tones the muscle, making it stronger over a longer period of time.  Both are beneficial in their own way depending on the desired outcome.
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« Reply #981 on: June 29, 2012, 12:20:20 PM »

Weightlifting has been part of my regime for close to 45 years. I have also included varying degrees of aerobic activity with it. Although excessive mass may be a deterent to overall fitness, a fair amout of mass is an asset.  Muscle is a working component of your body for locomotion.  It requires a supply freshly oxygenated blood to continue to participate in an activity. Being massively muscled doesn't necessarily translate either to not being aerobically fit.  I have seen some very heavily muscled individuals who who have a significant cardio capacity. Of course, one has to remember than more mass requires more oxygen and effort to move it. Participation in a some sports may require more mass and strength as opposed to another.  Granted that those individuals who participate exclusively in heavy lifting to the exclusion of other activites may not be the most healthy indivduals around. Youmight be able to lift a car but get winded walking to the mailbox.

  On the other end of the spectrum, the same can be said for many ematiated looking distance runners who engage in nothing but logging many, many miles each weak.  I don't have statistics, but over the years i have been surprised at the number of marathoners and utramarathoners I have read or heard about who have come down with diseases such as leukemia. My thought is that if you push your body too far too long without a chance to recover you lower your resistance to infection and other influences that may jeporadize your health.

  I have also become convinced that as one ages flexibility and stretching exercises may be the most important component of a good exercise program.  Older individuals who don't include stretching in their exercise program will find their stride shortened, their posture compromised and will also limit their progress in strengthbuilding and cardio capacity.  Of course, none of these exercise can stand alone in the absence of a healthy diet.
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« Reply #982 on: June 29, 2012, 07:49:19 PM »

They had weights 45 years ago?! Man, I thought they just had heavy animals and 8 track tapes.
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« Reply #983 on: June 29, 2012, 10:44:59 PM »

They had weights 45 years ago?! Man, I thought they just had heavy animals and 8 track tapes.

Actually, we worked out by lifting the 8 track tapes.
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« Reply #984 on: June 29, 2012, 11:32:35 PM »

They had weights 45 years ago?! Man, I thought they just had heavy animals and 8 track tapes.

Actually, we worked out by lifting the 8 track tapes.
Sure beats the 12-ounce curl. laugh
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« Reply #985 on: June 30, 2012, 04:22:17 PM »

They had weights 45 years ago?! Man, I thought they just had heavy animals and 8 track tapes.

Actually, we worked out by lifting the 8 track tapes.
Sure beats the 12-ounce curl. laugh

Oh, I did a few one arm concentration curls with those, too.
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« Reply #986 on: July 18, 2012, 12:48:16 PM »

You are talking about two different things.  There is a marked difference between muscle building and muscle toning.  The big wrestlers do a lot of high weight/low rep work, which makes the muscle large and capable of lifting more weight, but over a short period of time.  Professional athletes such as long distance runners, cyclists, swimmers, etc do more low weight/high rep work, which tones the muscle, making it stronger over a longer period of time.  Both are beneficial in their own way depending on the desired outcome.

Correct. The difference is that there is no such thing as "toning" a muscle.

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« Reply #987 on: July 18, 2012, 12:50:12 PM »

Well no.  The point of the paleo-diet is channelling the inner cave man.  

The science is that eating too much sugar is bad for you.  How shocking and so not mainstream.  

This has nothing.  Nada.  Nichts.  Nichoho.  to do with trying to eat like a caveman.  This also explains why a Japanese diet high in rice produces excellent results.  

Well no.  The point of the paleo-diet is channelling the inner cave man.


LOL..oh okay. I wasn't aware of that.

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

This also explains why a Japanese diet high in rice produces excellent results.  



Sauron already tried to pot shot the Japanese dietary habits without good effect.

Go back and read about it. If we adopted the Japanese Diet and some cultural habits we would indeed solve much of our Obesity problems and concurrently our high Heart Disease, Cancer and Diabetes rates.

The Japanese Diet is far far far closer to the idea's of Paleo eating then what we eat in the West. In fact, when Japanese Women come to the USA their rate of Breast Cancer soars to our levels in just a generation or two.

I posted data that the Japanese consume huge quantities of wheat and sugar. Is that your idea of "far closer" to paleo eating?
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« Reply #988 on: July 18, 2012, 01:04:28 PM »

They had weights 45 years ago?! Man, I thought they just had heavy animals and 8 track tapes.

Actually, we worked out by lifting the 8 track tapes.
Sure beats the 12-ounce curl. laugh

Oh, I did a few one arm concentration curls with those, too.

But did you do them sitting down with your elbow anchored against the side of your leg like a pansy, or did you do it in the manly, macho, uber-cool Arnold style? Hmm? Hmm? Well? Well then?
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« Reply #989 on: July 18, 2012, 02:45:46 PM »

Well no.  The point of the paleo-diet is channelling the inner cave man.  

The science is that eating too much sugar is bad for you.  How shocking and so not mainstream.  

This has nothing.  Nada.  Nichts.  Nichoho.  to do with trying to eat like a caveman.  This also explains why a Japanese diet high in rice produces excellent results.  

Well no.  The point of the paleo-diet is channelling the inner cave man.


LOL..oh okay. I wasn't aware of that.

yes Sugar is very bad. All the Paleo and low carb advocates that we have been talking about agree. Which part of this do you still not understand?

This also explains why a Japanese diet high in rice produces excellent results.  



Sauron already tried to pot shot the Japanese dietary habits without good effect.

Go back and read about it. If we adopted the Japanese Diet and some cultural habits we would indeed solve much of our Obesity problems and concurrently our high Heart Disease, Cancer and Diabetes rates.

The Japanese Diet is far far far closer to the idea's of Paleo eating then what we eat in the West. In fact, when Japanese Women come to the USA their rate of Breast Cancer soars to our levels in just a generation or two.


I posted data that the Japanese consume huge quantities of wheat and sugar. Is that your idea of "far closer" to paleo eating?


Your data was incomplete. You failed to mention that consumption is less than half of the American Diet. If we cut our sugar intake in half for example, much of our obesity problem would go away.

Therefore, if you take the principle of natural eating and ask which culture is closer and which is further away, the Japanese measure up far better. This isn't even to account for the large quantity of fish and their acceptance of eating fat in their meat. All these things move them in the Paleo direction, not away from it. The closer you get, the healthier you become.. Which part of this do you still not understand?

Thanks.
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