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Author Topic: Nutrition and Diet  (Read 57374 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #855 on: June 12, 2012, 05:18:37 AM »

Marc, this goes back to you not being able to tell the difference between a potato and a twinkie.  Diets around the world that are based on things like potatoes, wheat, rye and rice produce healthy populations.  The paleo diet just doesn't offer the sort of exclusive answers it thinks / claims it does.  The paleo diet gives absolutely no explanation for observable data: that Inuits (eating a traditional diet) and the traditional diet of the Mediterranean (high in carbs from grains and dairy) produce similar results.  Why?     
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« Reply #856 on: June 12, 2012, 10:02:15 AM »

What I am craving:


Blech! Tongue You can have your stinking lutefisk!

It's a delicacy where I am now. lol.
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« Reply #857 on: June 12, 2012, 10:02:15 AM »


I wouldn't mind mexican, but with my fiancee being Puerto Rican, I eat so much hispanic food I am sick of it lol
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« Reply #858 on: June 12, 2012, 10:39:02 AM »

If potatoes are the worst food that I eat, I don't see a huge problem. 

There is no dairy picture because I usually buy dairy on a separate trip to the market during the week.  Basically we eat meat on the weekends, dairy during the week.  I love local cheeses and making my own kefir.

I make my own sourdough bread, about 90% whole grain rye, 10% whole wheat.  A couple of slices of that with either cheese, творог (Quark according to wiki) or butter is my typical breakfast.  The other sort of staples I might make once or twice a week are brown rice, buckwheat or less often mamaliga (a Romanian corn porridge).  Pickled herring is a typical side dish a couple of times a week.  The only real luxury imported foods that I use are olive oil and balsamic vinegar.  I'd posit that my diet is perfectly healthy and not even close to paleo.         

You should probably read one or two of these books before commenting. The picture you posted is well within what they recommend. But you dont know that because you dont really know what they recommend.

I saw meat with lots of fat content, lots of vegetables no refined foods at all, no candy no sugar and some potatoes. They say 85% compliance is just fine. Now you know.

How old are you?

As I've said before, you've clearly never gathered wild fruit if you believe a basket of fruit is paleo.  Actually everything pictured is the result of agriculture.  Hence I reject the whole paradigm.   

The Russian interwebs are usually pretty decent for finding books to download, but I can't come up with anything from the paleo crowd.  From what I've scanned from google books and amazon, I get the picture. 

I'm 25, btw.   


Sadly for you, Marc doesn't consider anyone who is under the age of 30, and with atleast 1 child, an adult.

Oh I dont think the child part comes into consideration all that much. But in this case I was not speaking of juvinality but rather the physical effects of age. 

So for example, you are college age if I recall. You could say that you eat any old thing and it has no bad effects. Well Duh, youre 22. However these things tend to ware you down and only until some time later will you get paunchy, tired and diabetic.

I'm a biology major, but hey I have no idea about biology because I'm a child right. And the fact that I'm an athlete and don't/can't eat much junk food, I guess that doesn't matter either. But hey, you know me better than myself.

I am not sure you are following the conversation close enough. What you just wrote is out of context and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Did you think someone was accusing you of not being fit or in good health? I haven't seen anything like that in this thread.

Defensive much ?  Smiley
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« Reply #859 on: June 12, 2012, 10:44:21 AM »

Marc, this goes back to you not being able to tell the difference between a potato and a twinkie.  Diets around the world that are based on things like potatoes, wheat, rye and rice produce healthy populations.  The paleo diet just doesn't offer the sort of exclusive answers it thinks / claims it does.  The paleo diet gives absolutely no explanation for observable data: that Inuits (eating a traditional diet) and the traditional diet of the Mediterranean (high in carbs from grains and dairy) produce similar results.  Why?    

... I think you will find that populations that eat fattening foods get fat. It is far worse than anything else to eat sugar and junk food for sure. If you exclude all sugar and junk you have made the most important step you can take.

But thanks for all your guesses. Some of them may be true.

Here is a good reading list:

"Why we get fat" by Gary Taubes

"Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston A. Price

"Eat Fat to Lose Fat" by Dr. Mary Eng and Sally Fallon ( President of the Weston Price Foundation)

"The Paleo Solution" By Lorin Cordain

"The Paleo Answer" by Robb Wolfe



« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 10:49:51 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #860 on: June 12, 2012, 11:18:54 AM »

Marc, one question I have with the paleo diet is does it take into account smaller portion sizes?  Does it take caloric intake into account?

One problem I have always had with most of these "wunderdiäten" is that they say "eat whatever you want...just no carbs!"  Etc, etc, etc.  The problem still remains, what is being done with the calories?  Does the paleo diet simultaneously say "eat x, y, and z, but no i or n" as well as "but limit intake to x"?  If so, just looking at raw weight loss here, how would this be any different than eating whatever you want, but only 1800 calories of it?

In the military for arctic warfare training I'd read that they were issued two MRE's per day and then used chocolate to bring the calories up over 3000.  They were also being active in sub-zero temperatures so the calories were needed.  As Nektarios pointed out, in some parts of the world they have very carb heavy diets, or fat heavy, etc.  But they are taking in less calories than the typical American eating at McDonalds and probably work more to boot.

Now, framing the paleo diet is terms of nutrients taken in you might be on to something as it sounds like a more balanced diet than the supersize me diet.  This would be a good point for it.  But you would also have to note that other diets might be similarly balanced.
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« Reply #861 on: June 12, 2012, 01:26:40 PM »

If potatoes are the worst food that I eat, I don't see a huge problem. 

There is no dairy picture because I usually buy dairy on a separate trip to the market during the week.  Basically we eat meat on the weekends, dairy during the week.  I love local cheeses and making my own kefir.

I make my own sourdough bread, about 90% whole grain rye, 10% whole wheat.  A couple of slices of that with either cheese, творог (Quark according to wiki) or butter is my typical breakfast.  The other sort of staples I might make once or twice a week are brown rice, buckwheat or less often mamaliga (a Romanian corn porridge).  Pickled herring is a typical side dish a couple of times a week.  The only real luxury imported foods that I use are olive oil and balsamic vinegar.  I'd posit that my diet is perfectly healthy and not even close to paleo.         

You should probably read one or two of these books before commenting. The picture you posted is well within what they recommend. But you dont know that because you dont really know what they recommend.

I saw meat with lots of fat content, lots of vegetables no refined foods at all, no candy no sugar and some potatoes. They say 85% compliance is just fine. Now you know.

How old are you?

As I've said before, you've clearly never gathered wild fruit if you believe a basket of fruit is paleo.  Actually everything pictured is the result of agriculture.  Hence I reject the whole paradigm.   

The Russian interwebs are usually pretty decent for finding books to download, but I can't come up with anything from the paleo crowd.  From what I've scanned from google books and amazon, I get the picture. 

I'm 25, btw.   


Sadly for you, Marc doesn't consider anyone who is under the age of 30, and with atleast 1 child, an adult.

Oh I dont think the child part comes into consideration all that much. But in this case I was not speaking of juvinality but rather the physical effects of age. 

So for example, you are college age if I recall. You could say that you eat any old thing and it has no bad effects. Well Duh, youre 22. However these things tend to ware you down and only until some time later will you get paunchy, tired and diabetic.

I'm a biology major, but hey I have no idea about biology because I'm a child right. And the fact that I'm an athlete and don't/can't eat much junk food, I guess that doesn't matter either. But hey, you know me better than myself.

I am not sure you are following the conversation close enough. What you just wrote is out of context and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Did you think someone was accusing you of not being fit or in good health? I haven't seen anything like that in this thread.

Defensive much ?  Smiley

You were telling me things I already know.

This whole thing started because one faithful day, a few months ago, I was subjected to agism.
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« Reply #862 on: June 12, 2012, 01:59:26 PM »


I wouldn't mind mexican, but with my fiancee being Puerto Rican, I eat so much hispanic food I am sick of it lol

You think Chipotle can just be referred to generically as "Mexican"?  It is beyond Mexican, it is beyond labels, it is CHIPOTLE!
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« Reply #863 on: June 12, 2012, 02:00:03 PM »

Marc, one question I have with the paleo diet is does it take into account smaller portion sizes?  Does it take caloric intake into account?

One problem I have always had with most of these "wunderdiäten" is that they say "eat whatever you want...just no carbs!"  Etc, etc, etc.  The problem still remains, what is being done with the calories?  Does the paleo diet simultaneously say "eat x, y, and z, but no i or n" as well as "but limit intake to x"?  If so, just looking at raw weight loss here, how would this be any different than eating whatever you want, but only 1800 calories of it?

In the military for arctic warfare training I'd read that they were issued two MRE's per day and then used chocolate to bring the calories up over 3000.  They were also being active in sub-zero temperatures so the calories were needed.  As Nektarios pointed out, in some parts of the world they have very carb heavy diets, or fat heavy, etc.  But they are taking in less calories than the typical American eating at McDonalds and probably work more to boot.

Now, framing the paleo diet is terms of nutrients taken in you might be on to something as it sounds like a more balanced diet than the supersize me diet.  This would be a good point for it.  But you would also have to note that other diets might be similarly balanced.

Marc doesn't believe in calories.
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« Reply #864 on: June 12, 2012, 04:34:26 PM »

Marc, this goes back to you not being able to tell the difference between a potato and a twinkie.  Diets around the world that are based on things like potatoes, wheat, rye and rice produce healthy populations.  The paleo diet just doesn't offer the sort of exclusive answers it thinks / claims it does.  The paleo diet gives absolutely no explanation for observable data: that Inuits (eating a traditional diet) and the traditional diet of the Mediterranean (high in carbs from grains and dairy) produce similar results.  Why?    

... I think you will find that populations that eat fattening foods get fat. It is far worse than anything else to eat sugar and junk food for sure. If you exclude all sugar and junk you have made the most important step you can take.

I've already read as much as can be found online re: paleo and weston price diets.  I can't download full books as they aren't up are the Russian internets.  Actually it'd be rather funny to see these translated into Russian or Ukrainian, as no Russian would ever consider turning to an American for diet advice  Cheesy 

So without just throwing a bunch of titles out there, I have a few simple questions:

What is the maximum number of calories one should consume per day? 

How many carbohydrates should one consume per day?

Why do traditional diets that by and large violate the main precepts of the paleo diet still produce healthy populations (I linked Dr. Price's own research about one such population in Switzerland earlier).  Essentially why should I choose the paleo over any one of a myriad of diets that also have the ability to produce similar results?     
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« Reply #865 on: June 13, 2012, 12:18:47 PM »

Marc, one question I have with the paleo diet is does it take into account smaller portion sizes?  Does it take caloric intake into account?

One problem I have always had with most of these "wunderdiäten" is that they say "eat whatever you want...just no carbs!"  Etc, etc, etc.  The problem still remains, what is being done with the calories?  Does the paleo diet simultaneously say "eat x, y, and z, but no i or n" as well as "but limit intake to x"?  If so, just looking at raw weight loss here, how would this be any different than eating whatever you want, but only 1800 calories of it?

In the military for arctic warfare training I'd read that they were issued two MRE's per day and then used chocolate to bring the calories up over 3000.  They were also being active in sub-zero temperatures so the calories were needed.  As Nektarios pointed out, in some parts of the world they have very carb heavy diets, or fat heavy, etc.  But they are taking in less calories than the typical American eating at McDonalds and probably work more to boot.

Now, framing the paleo diet is terms of nutrients taken in you might be on to something as it sounds like a more balanced diet than the supersize me diet.  This would be a good point for it.  But you would also have to note that other diets might be similarly balanced.

Yes, in a couple ways..

If you get the majority of your calories from protein and fat you will regain your natural appetite. In other words it wont be driven by sugar. People who eat Paleo or Weston Price or Adkins etc will tend to eat less. When the foods you eat are nutrient dense then you don't need as much of it and also if you get your carbs low enough you will become Ketonic ( fat burning metabolism) and lose much of your appetite. Meat and fat are very satiating.

The problem still remains, what is being done with the calories?  Does the paleo diet simultaneously say "eat x, y, and z, but no i or n" as well as "but limit intake to x"?  If so, just looking at raw weight loss here, how would this be any different than eating whatever you want, but only 1800 calories of it?

That is a separate issue. Is calories in calories out ( "What is being done with the calories") a valid way to approach diet? That  has been the point of looking at the Gary Taubes material.

Here is a link to one of his lectures. I would also greatly recommend his books to you "Good Calories, Bad Calories" or even better "Why we get Fat"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTUspjZG-wc
 

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« Reply #866 on: June 13, 2012, 12:37:25 PM »

Marc, this goes back to you not being able to tell the difference between a potato and a twinkie.  Diets around the world that are based on things like potatoes, wheat, rye and rice produce healthy populations.  The paleo diet just doesn't offer the sort of exclusive answers it thinks / claims it does.  The paleo diet gives absolutely no explanation for observable data: that Inuits (eating a traditional diet) and the traditional diet of the Mediterranean (high in carbs from grains and dairy) produce similar results.  Why?    

... I think you will find that populations that eat fattening foods get fat. It is far worse than anything else to eat sugar and junk food for sure. If you exclude all sugar and junk you have made the most important step you can take.

I've already read as much as can be found online re: paleo and weston price diets.  I can't download full books as they aren't up are the Russian internets.  Actually it'd be rather funny to see these translated into Russian or Ukrainian, as no Russian would ever consider turning to an American for diet advice  Cheesy  

So without just throwing a bunch of titles out there, I have a few simple questions:

What is the maximum number of calories one should consume per day?  

How many carbohydrates should one consume per day?

Why do traditional diets that by and large violate the main precepts of the paleo diet still produce healthy populations (I linked Dr. Price's own research about one such population in Switzerland earlier).  Essentially why should I choose the paleo over any one of a myriad of diets that also have the ability to produce similar results?      

What is the maximum number of calories one should consume per day?  

How many carbohydrates should one consume per day?


Same answer. Paleo diets don't consider themselves to be low carb diets per se. They are more concerned about where you get your carbs from ( vegetables and fruit etc not from sugar or refined foods).
The Adkins diet says to keep carbs to 20 per day in order to get your metabolism ketonic. Personally, I need to stay at that level if I need to lose weight

Robb Wolfe says author of The Paleo Answer " Don't over eat. It's a mouth not a vacuum cleaner.
None of these diets are focused on counting calories, so there is no exact number that I am able to give you.
What you eat is what matters, not how much.

Why do traditional diets that by and large violate the main precepts of the paleo diet still produce healthy populations (I linked Dr. Price's own research about one such population in Switzerland earlier).  Essentially why should I choose the paleo over any one of a myriad of diets that also have the ability to produce similar results?      



And yet the Weston Price Foundation agrees with me and not with you. I bet they know more about his research and it's implications than either of us. www.westonaprice.org

It depends on what other diets you are talking about. You would need to be specific. If a diet hits the major points that we have been discussing then they would be beneficial. For example, if a diet totally excludes sugar and refined foods then that would be a giant step forward and those populations would compare well to the general population.

There is always Good , better, best as with all things.

The results of eating Paleo and or Weston Price are remarkable.  All health markers improve. People reverse diabetes heart disease and obesity. Hunter gatherers were taller and more robust and were cancer free. The idea that we should find the most natural  human diet can reasonably be approached with the overlay of an evolutionary template.

Do whatever you want. The diet you showed us that you already eat seems to be well within Paleo/Price recommendations.  
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« Reply #867 on: June 13, 2012, 01:02:54 PM »

What is the maximum number of calories one should consume per day?  


A few more thoughts. Your question is like asking "When does the law of gravity no longer apply?"

Well..........rarely if ever.  If you go into space the effects are less but there is still some gravitational pull.

Are you going into space?

I would need some evidence that large quantities of food intake spike insulin ( who knows, maybe they do. i would be open to that information). So if there is some point when super large amounts of meat and fat etc spike insulin then that would be the number of calories you should stop at.

Diets that restrict calories rarely work long term.  Super low fat diets like the Ornish diets are onerous and are very hard to keep up. The high carb low fat diet of the Government pyramid has been a disaster. Weight Watchers has a poor long term success rate.

What diets are left? The Mediterranean Diet is a good one. It has considerable over lap with Paleo and Weston Price, enough to make it worthwhile. The rest are also similar in basic principle to Paleo/Weston Price, South Beach, Adkins, Zone Diet..etc.
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« Reply #868 on: June 13, 2012, 01:14:46 PM »

I saw meat with lots of fat content, lots of vegetables no refined foods at all, no candy no sugar and some potatoes.
This is great except I would get leaner cuts of meat and lose the potatoes. Yams and sweet potatoes are better.

I have never understood why people bring up sweet potatoes when someone else mentions potatoes; it makes me wonder whether or not they've had both.
Because sweet potatoes with brown sugar and melted butter is pretty amazing.

In all honesty yams and sweet potatoes are lower in calories and have 2/3rds more fiber. I just intake the best quality calories and watch the portion size.

That's not to say fresh potatoes is bad, that's not true. I just think people intake too many potatoes and its mostly in the form of greasy french fries and potato chips.

Have you tried steaming sliced red potatoes with broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, and onions?

Or have you tried those freshly baked Greek potatoes using quartered red potatoes, fresh garlic cloves, and then spraying them with olive oil mixed with fresh lemon juice? It takes about 45 minutes to an hour to slowly bake them them around 350 degrees. Delicious. And very Lenten too since we are in the middle of the Apostles Fast right now.
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« Reply #869 on: June 13, 2012, 01:19:01 PM »

I like the suggestions of the Hawaiian diet ... return to the diet of our ancestors.

The Mediterranean diet is one such diet. Good for you too providing that one is not a couch potato as our ancestors did not have that huge black box in their living rooms.
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« Reply #870 on: June 13, 2012, 04:30:21 PM »

I like the suggestions of the Hawaiian diet ... return to the diet of our ancestors.

The Mediterranean diet is one such diet. Good for you too providing that one is not a couch potato as our ancestors did not have that huge black box in their living rooms.

Surprisingly, American Indians ( hunter gatherers) tended to sleep late and needed about three hours per day of work to get food and do necessary work.
When hunter gathers got exercise and was infrequent, short and intense ( much like me Smiley

If you apply the theory of "calories in calories out" to every situation, you will always be looking for sloth as the cause of poor health and over weight rather than on what people are eating as the primary issue.
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« Reply #871 on: June 13, 2012, 04:39:45 PM »

I like the suggestions of the Hawaiian diet ... return to the diet of our ancestors.

The Mediterranean diet is one such diet. Good for you too providing that one is not a couch potato as our ancestors did not have that huge black box in their living rooms.
I know....my ps3 keeps me pretty occupied Smiley

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« Reply #872 on: June 13, 2012, 04:53:03 PM »

Oh and the most important reason for choosing a Paleo type Diet is the avoidance of what has been called the modern diseases. Heart Disease, Diabetes, Cancer and Obesity ( and maybe even dementia).

You can certainly lose weight by sever calorie restriction and or lots of exercise ( calorie restriction being the prime component). And maybe you are someone that by force of will can maintain a low calorie regime over a long period. Maybe you can eat a very low fat diet and not mind the deprecation all that much. Perhaps you eat lots of grains but restrict calories and get tons of exercise.  All of these may make you thin so how would a Paleo Diet be better?

In the first place it would be easier to implement since no large amount of will power is needed if you are not counting calories or greatly restricting your fat intake. You can get by nicely on a Steak and Salad for dinner. Egg whites and low fat milk not so much.

But more important a natural human diet does not cause inflammation which is the big enchilada in terms of the modern diseases
( pardon the pun)

When you eat lots of grains or sugar or dairy it causes an inflammation reaction. Those foods are not yet adapted to by our bodies, they are too newly introduced and have all kinds of "Anti-Nutrients" and discordant properties. So your body protects itself by sending blood to the effected areas and you become inflamed. Inflamed blood vessels build up gunk and they get clogged up and you may have a heart attack.

So other diets may well help you to lose weight. That is of course a good thing in and of itself, but we find all kinds of slim people with cancer and heart disease. In fact a Life Insurance company that I work with did a study of all their death claims and found that there was no correlation between high cholesterol and death. People died of heart attacks at the same rate, even if they had low cholesterol or high cholesterol the rate was the same.. The suspicion is that there is something else a foot and that may be inflammation. Paleo type diets will greatly reduce internal inflammation as proven by simple blood tests.    

Your body will like Paleo style eating. It has evolved to like this type of food. It wont go into a defensive mode and jack up inflammation to defend itself from what you have eaten.

That is my answer to why you should chose this way of eating over others.    
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« Reply #873 on: June 13, 2012, 05:41:14 PM »

I am in Japan right now and it is amazing how bloated and short-lived this people are because of their carby diet of rice and noodles. Cut the fat, Ichiro!
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« Reply #874 on: June 13, 2012, 06:18:39 PM »

Is there something in the Eastern European died that causes people to age well because the other day at Liturgy we had a woman in her 40s from Russia who was going to be attending our Church and she was extremely attractive despite her age. Makes me jealous. Hope I age that well.
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« Reply #875 on: June 13, 2012, 06:55:36 PM »

Is there something in the Eastern European died that causes people to age well because the other day at Liturgy we had a woman in her 40s from Russia who was going to be attending our Church and she was extremely attractive despite her age. Makes me jealous. Hope I age that well.

Coffee and cigarettes.
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« Reply #876 on: June 13, 2012, 06:59:14 PM »

I am in Japan right now and it is amazing how bloated and short-lived this people are because of their carby diet of rice and noodles. Cut the fat, Ichiro!

Didnt we do this before ?...

Very high fish consumption. Very low sugar consumption. No Dairy consumption. Lots of sea vegetables which are high in all kinds of trace minerals. Their carbs come mostly from white rice which is the least noxious of all the choices of grains in terms of
anti-nutrients. The polishing process removes some of the rices protective defense against being eaten.

You will also note that many of them are not all that robust. Five foot nothing and 100 lbs is not the hunter gatherer profile. When they come West and they start eating red meat, eggs and chicken etc. their kids grow much taller..They also get chubby from the wheat and sugar. Go figure.

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« Reply #877 on: June 13, 2012, 07:43:43 PM »

I am in Japan right now and it is amazing how bloated and short-lived this people are because of their carby diet of rice and noodles. Cut the fat, Ichiro!

Didnt we do this before ?...

Very high fish consumption. Very low sugar consumption. No Dairy consumption. Lots of sea vegetables which are high in all kinds of trace minerals. Their carbs come mostly from white rice which is the least noxious of all the choices of grains in terms of
anti-nutrients. The polishing process removes some of the rices protective defense against being eaten.

I have placed in bold where you are quite wrong. Per capita wheat consumption is 32 kg per person. Sugar consumption is over 7 kg per person. Rice consumption is 55 kg per person. Per capita dairy consumption is 93.6 kg per person! (see link below) So, instead of there being zero dairy consumption, they actually consume almost twice as much dairy as rice. I dare you to respond.
http://www.nochuri.co.jp/report/pdf/r0509wto1.pdf

Anecdotally, there are over three liters of milk in my father-in-law's fridge right now. There is also butter. And bread.  I just took these pictures. Please keep in mind that he lives alone.





Quote
You will also note that many of them are not all that robust. Five foot nothing and 100 lbs is not the hunter gatherer profile. When they come West and they start eating red meat, eggs and chicken etc. their kids grow much taller..They also get chubby from the wheat and sugar. Go figure.

No, *you* need to go figure the data that is at odds with your theory. By the way, here are some "robust" hunter gatherers:



You think they are all jacked with 3% body fat because you think "Avatar" was a documentary.
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« Reply #878 on: June 13, 2012, 08:22:25 PM »



oh
I am in Japan right now and it is amazing how bloated and short-lived this people are because of their carby diet of rice and noodles. Cut the fat, Ichiro!

Didnt we do this before ?...

Very high fish consumption. Very low sugar consumption. No Dairy consumption. Lots of sea vegetables which are high in all kinds of trace minerals. Their carbs come mostly from white rice which is the least noxious of all the choices of grains in terms of
anti-nutrients. The polishing process removes some of the rices protective defense against being eaten.

I have placed in bold where you are quite wrong. Per capita wheat consumption is 32 kg per person. Sugar consumption is over 7 kg per person. Rice consumption is 55 kg per person. Per capita dairy consumption is 93.6 kg per person! (see link below) So, instead of there being zero dairy consumption, they actually consume almost twice as much dairy as rice. I dare you to respond.
http://www.nochuri.co.jp/report/pdf/r0509wto1.pdf

Anecdotally, there are over three liters of milk in my father-in-law's fridge right now. There is also butter. And bread.  I just took these pictures. Please keep in mind that he lives alone.





Quote
You will also note that many of them are not all that robust. Five foot nothing and 100 lbs is not the hunter gatherer profile. When they come West and they start eating red meat, eggs and chicken etc. their kids grow much taller..They also get chubby from the wheat and sugar. Go figure.

No, *you* need to go figure the data that is at odds with your theory. By the way, here are some "robust" hunter gatherers:



You think they are all jacked with 3% body fat because you think "Avatar" was a documentary.

Thanks for correcting me. I am here to learn.

I found this which may bare upon your assumptions.

Obesity in Japan

 by Paul Ericson on March 6, 2010

http://liberationwellnessblog.com/2010/03/06/obesity-in-japan/

The obesity rate in Japan is 3%.

This is ten times lower than the US. There is a popular myth that the Japanese are thin because they eat a diet based on rice, fish and vegetables. (This is related to the mythical “Mediterranean Diet”) The problem with this myth is that it simply isn’t true. The Japanese do eat rice, fish and vegetables, but their diet is far more complex than that. And diet is just one of several factors that affects obesity. In addition to rice, fish and vegetable, the Japanese eat a lot of fat. In fact fat consumption in Japan has increased by two thirds in recent years. They love fried foods. They eat tons of eggs. And I’ve never seen meat so fatty. In the US and Commonwealth nations, there are three grades of beef. Each grade has progressively more fat marbling. In Japan there are 12 grades with the US/Commonwealth grades corresponding to the three leanest Japanese grades. Beef producers in New Zealand have a difficult time selling into the Japanese market because the grass based system they use produces very lean meat. Pork in Japan is very fatty. I had lunch one day that included a 2 inch cube of stewed pork that was over half fat. This dish was very common as I saw it at virtually every grocery store, both raw and prepared.

On a recent trip to Japan I asked some Japanese what they think makes you fat. They all said the same things. Snacking and too much sugar make you fat they said. I asked if rice makes you fat. They said “no”, but they added that when a Japanese person wants to go on a diet, they reduce how much rice they eat. Also, the sumo wrestlers eat a great deal of rice 3-5 bowls per meal and as much as 10 bowls in a single meal. So I think they realize that rice is fattening.





Read the entire article at :  http://liberationwellnessblog.com/2010/03/06/obesity-in-japan/
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« Reply #879 on: June 13, 2012, 09:37:51 PM »

I am in Japan right now and it is amazing how bloated and short-lived this people are because of their carby diet of rice and noodles. Cut the fat, Ichiro!

Didnt we do this before ?...

Very high fish consumption. Very low sugar consumption. No Dairy consumption. Lots of sea vegetables which are high in all kinds of trace minerals. Their carbs come mostly from white rice which is the least noxious of all the choices of grains in terms of
anti-nutrients. The polishing process removes some of the rices protective defense against being eaten.

You will also note that many of them are not all that robust. Five foot nothing and 100 lbs is not the hunter gatherer profile. When they come West and they start eating red meat, eggs and chicken etc. their kids grow much taller..They also get chubby from the wheat and sugar. Go figure.



I've not observed this Asians-become-taller-in-Western-nations phenomenon.
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« Reply #880 on: June 13, 2012, 09:56:21 PM »

Lol at "mythical mediterranean diet" too bad it's the best one from scientific research and studies. Let alone common sense.

Lmao @ Avatar documentary
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« Reply #881 on: June 14, 2012, 08:23:32 AM »


I found this which may bare upon your assumptions.

Obesity in Japan

 by Paul Ericson on March 6, 2010

http://liberationwellnessblog.com/2010/03/06/obesity-in-japan/

The obesity rate in Japan is 3%.

This is ten times lower than the US. There is a popular myth that the Japanese are thin because they eat a diet based on rice, fish and vegetables. (This is related to the mythical “Mediterranean Diet”) The problem with this myth is that it simply isn’t true. The Japanese do eat rice, fish and vegetables, but their diet is far more complex than that. And diet is just one of several factors that affects obesity. In addition to rice, fish and vegetable, the Japanese eat a lot of fat. In fact fat consumption in Japan has increased by two thirds in recent years. They love fried foods. They eat tons of eggs. And I’ve never seen meat so fatty. In the US and Commonwealth nations, there are three grades of beef. Each grade has progressively more fat marbling. In Japan there are 12 grades with the US/Commonwealth grades corresponding to the three leanest Japanese grades. Beef producers in New Zealand have a difficult time selling into the Japanese market because the grass based system they use produces very lean meat. Pork in Japan is very fatty. I had lunch one day that included a 2 inch cube of stewed pork that was over half fat. This dish was very common as I saw it at virtually every grocery store, both raw and prepared.

On a recent trip to Japan I asked some Japanese what they think makes you fat. They all said the same things. Snacking and too much sugar make you fat they said. I asked if rice makes you fat. They said “no”, but they added that when a Japanese person wants to go on a diet, they reduce how much rice they eat. Also, the sumo wrestlers eat a great deal of rice 3-5 bowls per meal and as much as 10 bowls in a single meal. So I think they realize that rice is fattening.


Read the entire article at :  http://liberationwellnessblog.com/2010/03/06/obesity-in-japan/

The "very common dish" that he doesn't know what it is is called buta kakuni. Some Japan expert. While everyone has heard of it, I would not call it very common. I maybe had it a few times a year, and the usual serving is a few ounces. I agree that the meat here is fatty. However, it is eaten in small amounts. Yesterday we had a beef dish and 300 grams was used to prepare a meal for five people. That averages to just over two ounces per person. No one sits down to a 12 oz or even 8 oz steak as we do in the west. It just doesn't happen.

Has he ever been inside a sumo stable or a sumo ring? I have. Sumo wrestlers bulk up by eating enormous amounts of food - period. A typical amount would be 20,000 calories per day, which is more than even a big adult would eat in a week. This is largely done with a largely "paleo" stew called chankonabe.
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« Reply #882 on: June 14, 2012, 10:28:20 AM »

Let's review:

The Japanese have a fraction of the obesity of the US ( and other Western countries like England). They also have longer life spans.

But Sauron thinks ( based on his family and visits to Japan) that their Diet violates the norms of the alternative Diets we have been discussing (Paleo, Weston Price etc).

Not so fast.

The Obesity epidemic in the West is closely correlated to the vilification of fat in the diet and the promotion of grains literally at the base of Government food recommendations ( the so called "food pyramid")." Fats are bad.. grains are healthy"..The waistline of Americans took off from that point and now we find 60% of all Americans are overweight or obese.

As we have just read, nothing similar has been introduced into the Japanese diet..   Just the opposite. The Japanese do not disdain fatty meat, so much so that they won't accept imports of lean grass fed meat from China.

They recognize that rice, the staple grain in their diet is in fact fattening. When they wish to slim down they cut back on fattening rice and when they wish to gain weight ( like Sumo wrestlers) they eat lots of it. This is not at all similar to the standard American Diet promoted by the Food Pyramid ( now called the "Food Plate"). Grains do not make up the healthy base of a good diet but are correctly understood as a fattening food.

Furthermore, they eat seafood far more than we do ( I got that part  right I see) which is extremely high in Omega 3 fats. So the combination of a preference for fatty meat,  Omega 3 loaded seafood and a correct understanding of carbs in rice ( it's fattening) seems to vindicate some of the Paleo / Weston Price theories rather than overturn them.

Also,general health and life expectancy is greatly enhanced when people are engaged in a familiar community or group. Isolated people have much shorter life spans about equal to a heavy smoker. Japanese culture emphasizes group identification and participation, to an extreme extent. The family structure is also a bit different in terms of care for the elderly. There are very few Nursing Homes in Japan ( they are just beginning to ramp up to elder care based on their aging population). The elderly are almost always cared for at home.

They also have Universal Health Care, no large sections of the population are without access to good care. The population is greatly homogenous and there is nothing similar to the great underclass of poverty stricken people like there is in America. I would also hazard to guess that the rate of violent crimes in much different.   
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« Reply #883 on: June 14, 2012, 10:40:54 AM »

And then, Suron posted a picture of what looks like  Modern Day African Hunter Gatherers as a way to dispute the claim that Paleolithic people were far more robust than we are currently.

For someone who fancies himself a Scientist that is a pretty shallow rebuke to the findings of modern anthropology. Plus, the Men in that picture looked fine to me. They looked lean and well muscled. They also look like they may be Bushmen who have a different ancestry than then nearly everyone else.

Here is a good article ( sorry, no funny pix):

Life Expectancy in the Paleolithic
By Ron Hoggan, Ed. D

  ... Many arguments have been offered regarding the exact constitution of these hunter-gatherer diets, which we discuss elsewhere, but there is a single common element among the diets that were consumed by hunter-gatherers. These diets, despite their wide diversity, do not foster autoimmune, malignant, and cardiovascular diseases of civilization. More importantly, perhaps, combined with the activities required for their survival, each of these diverse diets fostered a much healthier, more robust human being - One who is stronger, faster, more agile, more resilient, and more able to battle the bacteria common to their habitat. This means that our ancestors were better able to handle the rigors of giving birth, surviving many types of infection, injuries, and battle with predators. Our ancestors were, in the strictest sense, more fit to survive.

Read the entire article at :

http://paleodiet.com/life-expectancy.htm
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« Reply #884 on: June 14, 2012, 06:50:28 PM »

Lol at "mythical mediterranean diet" too bad it's the best one from scientific research and studies. Let alone common sense.

Lmao @ Avatar documentary

I dont know too much about it. Isn't it very high in wheat?
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« Reply #885 on: June 14, 2012, 07:06:55 PM »

Lol at "mythical mediterranean diet" too bad it's the best one from scientific research and studies. Let alone common sense.

Lmao @ Avatar documentary

I dont know too much about it. Isn't it very high in wheat?

Marc, tell me you are trolling. Plz.

I want to believe. I really do.
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« Reply #886 on: June 14, 2012, 07:52:54 PM »

Let's review:

Yes, let's review+

You blurt out "Japanese eat no diary". I provide data that per capita diary consumption is over 200 lbs per year and you just say , "oh". Not "I was wrong", not "I am making this up as I go along", but "oh".

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« Reply #887 on: June 14, 2012, 07:53:56 PM »

Lol at "mythical mediterranean diet" too bad it's the best one from scientific research and studies. Let alone common sense.

Lmao @ Avatar documentary

I dont know too much about it. Isn't it very high in wheat?
Would you like my week's menu plan?
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« Reply #888 on: June 14, 2012, 10:16:32 PM »

Let's review:

Yes, let's review+

You blurt out "Japanese eat no diary". I provide data that per capita diary consumption is over 200 lbs per year and you just say , "oh". Not "I was wrong", not "I am making this up as I go along", but "oh".



Yes. thank you for catching me on a a couple of  detail's  God bless you.

But I think my main arguments have stood up pretty well. If you don't think so then I will try to live with that disappointment.
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« Reply #889 on: June 14, 2012, 10:18:36 PM »

Lol at "mythical mediterranean diet" too bad it's the best one from scientific research and studies. Let alone common sense.

Lmao @ Avatar documentary

I dont know too much about it. Isn't it very high in wheat?
Would you like my week's menu plan?

Sure.. Thanks

I am particularly interested in the level of wheat consumption.

Has it worked well for you?

What I have read so far is not too encouraging. It appears to be the enshrinement of the Government Food Pyramid. I have also read that Ancil Keys, it's inventor miss understood what people were really eating in the Mediterranean region ( he visited Italy when he heard they had very low death rates from heart disease and wanted to find out why). The authenticl Mediterranean Diet is not really what he observed.

Here is an Article o the Weston Price web site:

        
Written by Sally Fallon Morell and Mary Enig   
June 29 2000

 http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional-diets/mediterranean-diet
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« Reply #890 on: June 14, 2012, 10:50:13 PM »

There's alot of studies/science behind why the "Mediterrenean Diet" works the best for weight loss and in fact it is the diabetic diet. I quote that because there are things in my own diet that I change that doesn't exemplify that sort of eating philosophy.

Well I'll give you a rough week outline that isn't based on the Orthodox fasts. Granted this is a small sampler of all the food I eat during the year and I like to change it up as much as I can.

Breakfast: 1/2 cup Nonfat yogurt w/ no added sugar and a cup of Multi-Grain Cheerios
Lunch: 100% Whole Wheat Sandwich with Grey Poupon Dijon Mustard and Smoked Turkey Breast and veggies. A piece of fruit on the side. Every other day its Peanut Butter and Jelly. OR leftovers from the previous night dinner or incorporating ingridents from the night into the actual sandwich.

Dinner: Before the fast I had IIRC Fettucine Alfredo w/ Shrimp and Broccoli. Roasted Salmon and Corn Relish, Lentil Chili and Salad w/ Tomato Chive dressing, Blackened Redfish w/ dirty rice and Maple sweetened collard greens, Asian Peanut Chicken w/ noodles, BBQ Chicken Pizza.

Results: Pretty signifcant in terms of my energy, weight reduction, and overall "mental" health. Without excercising like normal when I started this diet I shaved off about 2 lbs a week, with excercise it was alot more.
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« Reply #891 on: June 14, 2012, 10:51:38 PM »

Let's review:

Yes, let's review+

You blurt out "Japanese eat no diary". I provide data that per capita diary consumption is over 200 lbs per year and you just say , "oh". Not "I was wrong", not "I am making this up as I go along", but "oh".



Yes. thank you for catching me on a a couple of  detail's  God bless you.

But I think my main arguments have stood up pretty well. If you don't think so then I will try to live with that disappointment.

I think you should review your understanding of the term "detail."
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« Reply #892 on: June 14, 2012, 11:13:48 PM »

Let's review:

Yes, let's review+

You blurt out "Japanese eat no diary". I provide data that per capita diary consumption is over 200 lbs per year and you just say , "oh". Not "I was wrong", not "I am making this up as I go along", but "oh".



Yes. thank you for catching me on a a couple of  detail's  God bless you.

But I think my main arguments have stood up pretty well. If you don't think so then I will try to live with that disappointment.

I think you should review your understanding of the term "detail."

Okay thanks.. I will try to do that

Maybe the level of Milk consumption in Japan is on the tip of everyone else's tongue but I think that qualifies as something fairly obscure.

It amazes me how angry you folks are getting over a fairly benign topic..

I've reference my idea's pretty thoroughly. You can read or watch what is behind the things that I have talked about. It you don't agree, go your way in Peace. How angry do you get over something really controversial I wonder?   

Anyway, you cant stop me from expressing my opinion. Try to stay calm.

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« Reply #893 on: June 14, 2012, 11:19:26 PM »

Let's review:

Yes, let's review+

You blurt out "Japanese eat no diary". I provide data that per capita diary consumption is over 200 lbs per year and you just say , "oh". Not "I was wrong", not "I am making this up as I go along", but "oh".



Yes. thank you for catching me on a a couple of  detail's  God bless you.

According to you, a demonstrably false statement such as "Japanese eat no diary" is an insignificant detail? If that is true, there is no such thing as a significant fact.

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« Reply #894 on: June 14, 2012, 11:21:24 PM »

Let's review:

Yes, let's review+

You blurt out "Japanese eat no diary". I provide data that per capita diary consumption is over 200 lbs per year and you just say , "oh". Not "I was wrong", not "I am making this up as I go along", but "oh".



Yes. thank you for catching me on a a couple of  detail's  God bless you.

But I think my main arguments have stood up pretty well. If you don't think so then I will try to live with that disappointment.

I think you should review your understanding of the term "detail."

Okay thanks.. I will try to do that

Maybe the level of Milk consumption in Japan is on the tip of everyone else's tongue but I think that qualifies as something fairly obscure.


If such a statement is obscure, then what is general and mainstream?

You may a pretty glaring statement of fact. Why did you ever believe that Japanese eat no diary? Can you point to where you learned it, or was it just an idea in your head that sounded good so you blurted it out and argued as if it were a fact?
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« Reply #895 on: June 14, 2012, 11:25:34 PM »


But Sauron thinks ( based on his family and visits to Japan) that their Diet violates the norms of the alternative Diets we have been discussing (Paleo, Weston Price etc).
 

Also, my comments are not based on "visits". First, I posted links to government publications to support my arguments. Second, I used to live here. I am not some weeaboo who passed through for 10 days.
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« Reply #896 on: June 14, 2012, 11:40:51 PM »

Let's review:

Yes, let's review+

You blurt out "Japanese eat no diary". I provide data that per capita diary consumption is over 200 lbs per year and you just say , "oh". Not "I was wrong", not "I am making this up as I go along", but "oh".



Yes. thank you for catching me on a a couple of  detail's  God bless you.

According to you, a demonstrably false statement such as "Japanese eat no diary" is an insignificant detail? If that is true, there is no such thing as a significant fact.



And yet, your argument failed.. Imagine that..

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« Reply #897 on: June 14, 2012, 11:43:54 PM »

Let's review:

Yes, let's review+

You blurt out "Japanese eat no diary". I provide data that per capita diary consumption is over 200 lbs per year and you just say , "oh". Not "I was wrong", not "I am making this up as I go along", but "oh".



Yes. thank you for catching me on a a couple of  detail's  God bless you.

According to you, a demonstrably false statement such as "Japanese eat no diary" is an insignificant detail? If that is true, there is no such thing as a significant fact.



And yet, your argument failed.. Imagine that..


Which argument would that be? That Japanese eat a boatload of dairy, wheat, and sugar?

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« Reply #898 on: June 14, 2012, 11:44:20 PM »


But Sauron thinks ( based on his family and visits to Japan) that their Diet violates the norms of the alternative Diets we have been discussing (Paleo, Weston Price etc).
 

Also, my comments are not based on "visits". First, I posted links to government publications to support my arguments. Second, I used to live here. I am not some weeaboo who passed through for 10 days.


Oh I thought you posted pix of what was in the fridge.. My mistake.

And the Bushman picture was a really good way to dispute how robust Paleolithic Humans were. Absolutely brilliant. I dont know if i can go on after that sting.  
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« Reply #899 on: June 14, 2012, 11:49:01 PM »


But Sauron thinks ( based on his family and visits to Japan) that their Diet violates the norms of the alternative Diets we have been discussing (Paleo, Weston Price etc).
 

Also, my comments are not based on "visits". First, I posted links to government publications to support my arguments. Second, I used to live here. I am not some weeaboo who passed through for 10 days.


Oh I thought you posted pix of what was in the fridge.. My mistake.

And the Bushman picture was a really good way to dispute how robust Paleolithic Humans were. Absolutely brilliant. I dont know if i can go on after that sting.  

I did. However, you will also notice that I posted such after the links to government figures on food consumption, with the proviso "anecdotally".

Yeah, that bushman picture was good. No one is ever going to mistake a hunter-gatherer for a gym rat. You should not go on, but you will. Care to prove me wrong on that prediction?
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