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Author Topic: Nutrition and Diet  (Read 59223 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #495 on: May 20, 2012, 09:24:11 PM »

Here is a pretty good interview of Gary Taubes where he summarizes these idea's.

One caution, you may want to put a shotgun into the mouth of the interviewer and give her both barrels.. Fair warning
But Taubes is good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFlUpJhKZdU&feature=fvst
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« Reply #496 on: May 20, 2012, 09:28:36 PM »

Nectarine,

What would you like to know about IFing? Been doing it in some fashion off and on before the interwebz.

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« Reply #497 on: May 20, 2012, 10:07:48 PM »

Anyway let's get back to this. Eating less does create weight loss, yes but you don't want to end up skinnyfat by eating less. You got to lift weight to promote fat loss.

Anybody who promotes a starvation diet is dumb and shouldn't be taken seriously.
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« Reply #498 on: May 20, 2012, 10:09:50 PM »

Anyway let's get back to this. Eating less does create weight loss, yes but you don't want to end up skinnyfat by eating less. You got to lift weight to promote fat loss.

Anybody who promotes a starvation diet is dumb and shouldn't be taken seriously.

All that muscle is going to turn into fat anyway.



(sorry, couldn't resist  Grin )
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« Reply #499 on: May 20, 2012, 10:15:17 PM »

Not if you do heavy weightlifting combined with protein and a calorie deficit. You will retain the most muscle mass while losing the fat.

Unless you made a joke that went over my head.
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« Reply #500 on: May 20, 2012, 10:18:07 PM »

It was a joke. Sometimes when people don't want to exercise they'll say "All that muscle will turn to fat once I stop exercising, so why bother?"
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« Reply #501 on: May 20, 2012, 10:19:23 PM »

Anyway let's get back to this. Eating less does create weight loss, yes but you don't want to end up skinnyfat by eating less. You got to lift weight to promote fat loss.

Anybody who promotes a starvation diet is dumb and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Nonsense.

Who is suggesting "starvation" other than to point out that indeed your body does respond to caloric deficit?

You can lose weight and maintain lean body mass via moderate activity.

This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.

Eat less. Walk a little. Pick stuff up when you need to.

NBD.

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« Reply #502 on: May 20, 2012, 10:20:27 PM »

It was a joke. Sometimes when people don't want to exercise they'll say "All that muscle will turn to fat once I stop exercising, so why bother?"

It's insane how quickly skeletal muscle will morph into adipose tissue if left alone.  Wink
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« Reply #503 on: May 20, 2012, 10:24:40 PM »

It was a joke. Sometimes when people don't want to exercise they'll say "All that muscle will turn to fat once I stop exercising, so why bother?"

It's insane how quickly skeletal muscle will morph into adipose tissue if left alone.  Wink

I carry all my fat where it looks the best:

inside my arteries.

It is very slimming.
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« Reply #504 on: May 20, 2012, 10:26:15 PM »

It was a joke. Sometimes when people don't want to exercise they'll say "All that muscle will turn to fat once I stop exercising, so why bother?"

It's insane how quickly skeletal muscle will morph into adipose tissue if left alone.  Wink

I carry all my fat where it looks the best:

inside my arteries.

It is very slimming.

And lubricating for your circulation! You're doing it right.
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« Reply #505 on: May 20, 2012, 10:38:58 PM »

Who is suggesting "starvation" other than to point out that indeed your body does respond to caloric deficit?
I didn't suggest anyone said that, just throwing that out there.

Quote
You can lose weight and maintain lean body mass via moderate activity.
If your idea of moderate activity is "walk a little and pick up stuff when you need to", then I don't know what to tell you except you're wrong.


Quote
This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
Am I getting into the minutiae of this? No I'm not.

Anyway the moral of the story here is people eat to much, and need to cut back so there is a reduction in calories. Lifting weights is great at fat loss.
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« Reply #506 on: May 20, 2012, 10:48:16 PM »

This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.
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« Reply #507 on: May 20, 2012, 10:52:36 PM »

This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.

So strength training?

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ

I'm a big fan of deadlifts.TBH
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« Reply #508 on: May 20, 2012, 10:55:34 PM »

This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.

So strength training?
For one, I don't use free weights.
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« Reply #509 on: May 20, 2012, 11:01:15 PM »

This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.

So strength training?
For one, I don't use free weights.

That's just crazy talk.
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« Reply #510 on: May 20, 2012, 11:02:12 PM »

This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.

So strength training?
For one, I don't use free weights.

That's just crazy talk.
Why?
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« Reply #511 on: May 20, 2012, 11:08:00 PM »

This thread is a testament to the neurotic reasons why people don't lose weight: they get caught up in minutiae appropriate to serious athletes, become overwhelmed and give up.
This is a good example of why I don't follow my housemate's advice on strength training. His methods are more appropriate for serious athletes, while I'm merely looking for exercises to strengthen my muscles for the work for which I will use them in my everyday life. I need to set goals that I can reach.

So strength training?
For one, I don't use free weights.

That's just crazy talk.
Why?

Just another joke. I'm bored tonight. Many weight lifters (or people who populate such forums, or write such books) argue that free weights are superior, and machines are inferior. So from their perspective, saying that you don't use any free weights would be, literally, crazy talk.
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« Reply #512 on: May 20, 2012, 11:09:01 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

*Which is not to say that I embarked on an exciting new diet of anorexia nervosa. But, if my body burns 1400 calories a day, and then I run a few miles and burn 200 calories, then turn around and eat 1600 calories (or worse, 1600+), I'm not going to see net loss.

All this exercise discussion is very well and good, but at the end of the day you can't change the relationship between calories in vs. calories out.

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« Reply #513 on: May 20, 2012, 11:13:02 PM »

I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

 Cheesy  Last year I was watching the Mr. Olympia webcast and took a few screen shots of the female bodybuilders, and posted it in the unofficial oc.net chat. I'm pretty sure some of them still haven't forgiven me...
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« Reply #514 on: May 20, 2012, 11:15:51 PM »

I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

 Cheesy  Last year I was watching the Mr. Olympia webcast and took a few screen shots of the female bodybuilders, and posted it in the unofficial oc.net chat. I'm pretty sure some of them still haven't forgiven me...

I've suffered the loss of use of certain parts of my anatomy ever since.
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« Reply #515 on: May 20, 2012, 11:22:37 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

*Which is not to say that I embarked on an exciting new diet of anorexia nervosa. But, if my body burns 1400 calories a day, and then I run a few miles and burn 200 calories, then turn around and eat 1600 calories (or worse, 1600+), I'm not going to see net loss.

All this exercise discussion is very well and good, but at the end of the day you can't change the relationship between calories in vs. calories out.



No amount of excercising will cover up a poor diet.
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« Reply #516 on: May 20, 2012, 11:23:58 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

*Which is not to say that I embarked on an exciting new diet of anorexia nervosa. But, if my body burns 1400 calories a day, and then I run a few miles and burn 200 calories, then turn around and eat 1600 calories (or worse, 1600+), I'm not going to see net loss.

All this exercise discussion is very well and good, but at the end of the day you can't change the relationship between calories in vs. calories out.



No amount of excercising will cover up a poor diet.

Precisely. I believe it was orthonorm who said somewhere upthread that you can't outrun a cheeseburger.
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« Reply #517 on: May 20, 2012, 11:38:11 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

*Which is not to say that I embarked on an exciting new diet of anorexia nervosa. But, if my body burns 1400 calories a day, and then I run a few miles and burn 200 calories, then turn around and eat 1600 calories (or worse, 1600+), I'm not going to see net loss.

All this exercise discussion is very well and good, but at the end of the day you can't change the relationship between calories in vs. calories out.



No amount of excercising will cover up a poor diet.

Precisely. I believe it was orthonorm who said somewhere upthread that you can't outrun a cheeseburger.

He must run really slow; no cheeseburger has ever caught me; it's always me that catches them.
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« Reply #518 on: May 20, 2012, 11:41:36 PM »

Stop the burger talk, please. I have kneejerk reaction to go get some.
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« Reply #519 on: May 20, 2012, 11:42:18 PM »

Stop the burger talk, please. I have kneejerk reaction to go get some.

At least get Sonic; Sonicburgers are awesome.
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« Reply #520 on: May 20, 2012, 11:48:43 PM »

Stop the burger talk, please. I have kneejerk reaction to go get some.

At least get Sonic; Sonicburgers are awesome.
What? Horrible. Just horrible.
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« Reply #521 on: May 21, 2012, 12:56:57 AM »

Stop the burger talk, please. I have kneejerk reaction to go get some.

At least get Sonic; Sonicburgers are awesome.
What? Horrible. Just horrible.

Get behind me Satan!
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« Reply #522 on: May 21, 2012, 01:01:15 AM »

Stop the burger talk, please. I have kneejerk reaction to go get some.

At least get Sonic; Sonicburgers are awesome.
What? Horrible. Just horrible.

Get behind me Satan!
You must have amazing Sonicburgers in AZ then, because in CO pretty much yesterday's garbage.

But don't you have In-N-Out anyway?
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« Reply #523 on: May 21, 2012, 01:18:43 AM »

Stop the burger talk, please. I have kneejerk reaction to go get some.

At least get Sonic; Sonicburgers are awesome.
What? Horrible. Just horrible.

Get behind me Satan!
You must have amazing Sonicburgers in AZ then, because in CO pretty much yesterday's garbage.

But don't you have In-N-Out anyway?

If you are ever out my way, we will eat some of the most delicious burgers ever.
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« Reply #524 on: May 21, 2012, 01:21:34 AM »

Stop the burger talk, please. I have kneejerk reaction to go get some.

At least get Sonic; Sonicburgers are awesome.
What? Horrible. Just horrible.

Get behind me Satan!
You must have amazing Sonicburgers in AZ then, because in CO pretty much yesterday's garbage.

But don't you have In-N-Out anyway?

If you are ever out my way, we will eat some of the most delicious burgers ever.

Is that Black Castle?

 Grin
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« Reply #525 on: May 21, 2012, 01:43:42 AM »

Stop the burger talk, please. I have kneejerk reaction to go get some.

At least get Sonic; Sonicburgers are awesome.
What? Horrible. Just horrible.

Get behind me Satan!
You must have amazing Sonicburgers in AZ then, because in CO pretty much yesterday's garbage.

But don't you have In-N-Out anyway?

Quite true; In-N-Out is way, way better.
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« Reply #526 on: May 21, 2012, 02:24:38 AM »

Nectarine,

What would you like to know about IFing? Been doing it in some fashion off and on before the interwebz.

Does it actually produces some results?  Any noticeable improvements?  I'm not really interested in anything extreme, but maybe a 24 hour fast one day a month or maybe once a week.   
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« Reply #527 on: May 21, 2012, 02:34:05 AM »

So can you do IFing twice a week at most?
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« Reply #528 on: May 21, 2012, 03:30:15 AM »

Nectarine,

What would you like to know about IFing? Been doing it in some fashion off and on before the interwebz.

Does it actually produces some results?  Any noticeable improvements?  I'm not really interested in anything extreme, but maybe a 24 hour fast one day a month or maybe once a week.   

The way that I understand it, I believe you would select some period of time every day in which to consume food and drink, and would consume nothing outside of those hours.
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« Reply #529 on: May 21, 2012, 03:54:00 AM »

This sums up my views on food and nutrition, and I'd have to say Pollan has influenced my eating habits more than any other food writer.  Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

Sauron's posting about intermittent fasting has piqued my curiosity.  I found this link about it.  Has anyone else done anything like this?  As far as I understand it, this is what the a regular Wed / Fri fast actually ought to look like if one is concerned about such matters.  

If you read his stuff carefully you will see a big overlap of agreement between him and Taubes and the others.

For example, he says, "Don't eat anything you see advertised". That's a great rule of thumb

He blames carbs for the increase of obesity

He understands that saturated fat does not make you fat nor does it promote hear disease.

He is grossed out by the Beef industry, as we all should be and the lack of quality  in factory raised beef.

Therefore, he recommends a plant based diet, plants as your main dish, locally grown if possible.

However, he has said good things about places like Polyface Farms that produce grass fed beef, chicken and eggs. Factory raised beef is inefficient and environmentally bad which is a big part of his objection. Grass based farms that raise beef are environmentally sound.

He understands that grass fed beef is good for you but doesn't seem to think it is available to a large enough extent, hence the advice to eat plants mainly, avoid sugar and refined carbs and all highly processed food. He wants you to avoid factory raised meat.

Slight differences.. all these people seem to be reaching similar conclusions.  

There are a lot of important nuances that are you glossing over.  Pollan in general is against over-consumption.  I just don't see that in a lot of more paleo-leaning writers.  I personally am all for meat, but as Pollan suggests it should be a side dish.  I make meat once a week as a sort of Sunday dinner, but it is just a small component of the meal that is filled with roasted veggies, a garden salad etc.  During the week I have just a little bit of pickled herring.  On holidays I'll eat some salo or blood sausage.  From what I can tell this is a responsible and sustainable diet.  It just isn't realistic to feed the world population on the Paleo-diet.  You just aren't going to be able to feed a metropolis meat three times a day unless you have factory farmed animals.  I much prefer the alternative of eating high quality meat and wild caught fish once a week rather than garbage everyday.  

You said that Pollan blames obesity on high carbs.  Re-read the linked article.  He blames it on the US government refusing to recommend reduced consumption.  Being opposed to processed foods and empty carbs is not the same thing as being a paleo / atkins style anti-carb dieter.  Pollan likes potatoes, bread, rice, etc.  Within a proper diet carbs and starches are fine.  What it seems that most paleo proponents don't seem to grasp is that say pickled herring on rye bread or a brown rice and lentil soup is not the same as gorging on twinkies.  
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« Reply #530 on: May 21, 2012, 10:14:42 AM »

This sums up my views on food and nutrition, and I'd have to say Pollan has influenced my eating habits more than any other food writer.  Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

Sauron's posting about intermittent fasting has piqued my curiosity.  I found this link about it.  Has anyone else done anything like this?  As far as I understand it, this is what the a regular Wed / Fri fast actually ought to look like if one is concerned about such matters.  

If you read his stuff carefully you will see a big overlap of agreement between him and Taubes and the others.

For example, he says, "Don't eat anything you see advertised". That's a great rule of thumb

He blames carbs for the increase of obesity

He understands that saturated fat does not make you fat nor does it promote hear disease.

He is grossed out by the Beef industry, as we all should be and the lack of quality  in factory raised beef.

Therefore, he recommends a plant based diet, plants as your main dish, locally grown if possible.

However, he has said good things about places like Polyface Farms that produce grass fed beef, chicken and eggs. Factory raised beef is inefficient and environmentally bad which is a big part of his objection. Grass based farms that raise beef are environmentally sound.

He understands that grass fed beef is good for you but doesn't seem to think it is available to a large enough extent, hence the advice to eat plants mainly, avoid sugar and refined carbs and all highly processed food. He wants you to avoid factory raised meat.

Slight differences.. all these people seem to be reaching similar conclusions.  

There are a lot of important nuances that are you glossing over.  Pollan in general is against over-consumption.  I just don't see that in a lot of more paleo-leaning writers.  I personally am all for meat, but as Pollan suggests it should be a side dish.  I make meat once a week as a sort of Sunday dinner, but it is just a small component of the meal that is filled with roasted veggies, a garden salad etc.  During the week I have just a little bit of pickled herring.  On holidays I'll eat some salo or blood sausage.  From what I can tell this is a responsible and sustainable diet.  It just isn't realistic to feed the world population on the Paleo-diet.  You just aren't going to be able to feed a metropolis meat three times a day unless you have factory farmed animals.  I much prefer the alternative of eating high quality meat and wild caught fish once a week rather than garbage everyday.  

You said that Pollan blames obesity on high carbs.  Re-read the linked article.  He blames it on the US government refusing to recommend reduced consumption.  Being opposed to processed foods and empty carbs is not the same thing as being a paleo / atkins style anti-carb dieter.  Pollan likes potatoes, bread, rice, etc.  Within a proper diet carbs and starches are fine.  What it seems that most paleo proponents don't seem to grasp is that say pickled herring on rye bread or a brown rice and lentil soup is not the same as gorging on twinkies.  

But at the end of the day you end up with close to the same recommendations. Avoid sugar and refined carbs. Avoid highly processed foods
( "Don't eat any food you see advertised") and get your carbs from vegetables.

Any diet that gets you to avoid sugar and highly processed foods will do you good, a lot of good. The next question is then what is optimal..

If you read Paleo-Weston Price liturature you will see a strong commitment to raising animals exclusively on their natural diet, in the case of beef on grass. I have seen Pollan on youtubes tip his hat to this.

His solution is to eat less meat. Our solution is to eat grass fed meat as much as you can which is ..in fact.. environmentally sound. In that way you can eat the optional diet for humans and be environmentally efficient. Pollan is ten years behind on this point but if you follow his dietary advice to will be 1000X better off than  with the standard Western Diet. IMHO

Poly Face Farm is a good example of grass based farming of livestock.

Here is a great youtube with Joe Salitan, the owner/farmer of Polyface.

Polyface farms has been called the most productive acres in all of the Shenandoah Valley . This grass based farm is five times more productive than any other farm in the area. He gives the numbers is part two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHkIUcOB2vA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tKvkehHsOE&feature=relmfu  

Several more parts. Click on them if interested.
 
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« Reply #531 on: May 21, 2012, 02:14:28 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

Guess what? You won't.

I don't know how many times I have heard people eschew lifting weights because "I don't want to get bulky". I don't know about in your town, but I haven't exactly noticed that we have an outbreak of bodybuilders with single-digit body fat sweeping the nation.

You will never look anything like the linked photo because your body does not produce the required testosterone.
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« Reply #532 on: May 21, 2012, 02:16:46 PM »

Nectarine,

What would you like to know about IFing? Been doing it in some fashion off and on before the interwebz.

Does it actually produces some results?  Any noticeable improvements?  I'm not really interested in anything extreme, but maybe a 24 hour fast one day a month or maybe once a week.   

The way that I understand it, I believe you would select some period of time every day in which to consume food and drink, and would consume nothing outside of those hours.

There are lots of ways to do it. Some people have an "eating window" every day, such as only eating from noon to 6 pm, 3 pm to 8 pm, or some such. I prefer to do day-long water fasts on Wed/Fri for what I imagine are obvious reasons.
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« Reply #533 on: May 21, 2012, 02:20:12 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

Guess what? You won't.

I don't know how many times I have heard people eschew lifting weights because "I don't want to get bulky". I don't know about in your town, but I haven't exactly noticed that we have an outbreak of bodybuilders with single-digit body fat sweeping the nation.

You will never look anything like the linked photo because your body does not produce the required testosterone.


You will be relieved to know that during that particular sentence, my tongue was placed firmly against the inside of my cheek.

My point was summed up in my final sentence- namely, at the end of the day, calories in vs. calories out is king when it comes to weight loss.
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« Reply #534 on: May 21, 2012, 02:38:41 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

Guess what? You won't.

I don't know how many times I have heard people eschew lifting weights because "I don't want to get bulky". I don't know about in your town, but I haven't exactly noticed that we have an outbreak of bodybuilders with single-digit body fat sweeping the nation.

You will never look anything like the linked photo because your body does not produce the required testosterone.


You will be relieved to know that during that particular sentence, my tongue was placed firmly against the inside of my cheek.

My point was summed up in my final sentence- namely, at the end of the day, calories in vs. calories out is king when it comes to weight loss.

Then why do impoverished people get fatter than richer people? You would think that as we go up the socio economic scale people would be fatter.
But the opposite is true. Obesity is far more prevalent among poor people. That is due to their carb based diets.

The Pima Indians are a classic example. They were once wealthy with overflowing store houses. They were slim. Once they became impoverished ( desperately so), obesity and diabetes soared.  How come?
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« Reply #535 on: May 21, 2012, 03:06:53 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

Guess what? You won't.

I don't know how many times I have heard people eschew lifting weights because "I don't want to get bulky". I don't know about in your town, but I haven't exactly noticed that we have an outbreak of bodybuilders with single-digit body fat sweeping the nation.

You will never look anything like the linked photo because your body does not produce the required testosterone.


You will be relieved to know that during that particular sentence, my tongue was placed firmly against the inside of my cheek.

My point was summed up in my final sentence- namely, at the end of the day, calories in vs. calories out is king when it comes to weight loss.

Then why do impoverished people get fatter than richer people? You would think that as we go up the socio economic scale people would be fatter.
But the opposite is true. Obesity is far more prevalent among poor people. That is due to their carb based diets.

The Pima Indians are a classic example. They were once wealthy with overflowing store houses. They were slim. Once they became impoverished ( desperately so), obesity and diabetes soared.  How come?

In your first paragraph, are you talking about American poor? In a simplistic answer: because the Dollar Menu at McDonald's is cheaper than Whole Foods. A double cheeseburger is 440 calories, and it's a buck. It's cheap, calorie rich food. Poor people are fatter than rich people because in America, high calorie crap is cheap. But it still comes down to calories.

I'm unfamiliar with the Pima Indians, so I cannot comment on their particular case without looking into the matter more fully.
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« Reply #536 on: May 21, 2012, 03:17:44 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

Guess what? You won't.

I don't know how many times I have heard people eschew lifting weights because "I don't want to get bulky". I don't know about in your town, but I haven't exactly noticed that we have an outbreak of bodybuilders with single-digit body fat sweeping the nation.

You will never look anything like the linked photo because your body does not produce the required testosterone.


You will be relieved to know that during that particular sentence, my tongue was placed firmly against the inside of my cheek.

My point was summed up in my final sentence- namely, at the end of the day, calories in vs. calories out is king when it comes to weight loss.

Then why do impoverished people get fatter than richer people? You would think that as we go up the socio economic scale people would be fatter.
But the opposite is true. Obesity is far more prevalent among poor people. That is due to their carb based diets.

The Pima Indians are a classic example. They were once wealthy with overflowing store houses. They were slim. Once they became impoverished ( desperately so), obesity and diabetes soared.  How come?

In your first paragraph, are you talking about American poor? In a simplistic answer: because the Dollar Menu at McDonald's is cheaper than Whole Foods. A double cheeseburger is 440 calories, and it's a buck. It's cheap, calorie rich food. Poor people are fatter than rich people because in America, high calorie crap is cheap. But it still comes down to calories.

I'm unfamiliar with the Pima Indians, so I cannot comment on their particular case without looking into the matter more fully.

I knew someone would offer that explanination. Sorry to have baited you.

This is called the "Toxic Environment" theory. There is lots of fast food and easily available junk food around which is high in sugar and high in energy. That  is why poor people get fatter than richer people.

But the Pima Indians were noted to be obese in 1905, long before McDonalds. Taubes cites example after example of impoverished people who do not live in our modern culture ( no "Toxic environment) who despite living in scarcity become obese.   

He give one example of a foreign journalist who wrote about how fat American Children were when he visited during the Depression. Once again, long before McDonalds.

Something else must be going on.

I suggest getting his book, "Why we get Fat."   or watch the you tube i posted before. he goes through a long list of examples of obese populations who live in poverty and who are not or were not  part of the present day "Toxic Environment"
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« Reply #537 on: May 21, 2012, 03:49:20 PM »

Quick search on the Pima Indians led me to this, from The National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (NIDDK):

Quote
The Pima Indians maintained much of their traditional way of life and economy until the late 19th century, when their water supply was diverted by American farmers settling upstream, according to Ravussin. At that time, their 2,000-year-old tradition of irrigation and agriculture was disrupted, causing poverty, malnutrition and even starvation. The Pima community had to fall back on the lard, sugar and white flour the U.S. government gave them to survive, says Ravussin.

However, World War II brought great social and economic change for American Indians. Those who entered military service joined Caucasian units. Many other American Indians migrated from reservations to cities for factory employment and their estimated cash income more than doubled from 1940 to 1944.

When the war and the economic boom ended, most Native Americans returned to the reservations, but contact with the larger society had profoundly affected the Pimas' way of life. Ravussin says it is no surprise that the increase in unhealthy weight among the Pima Indians occurred in those born post-World War II.

During this century people world-wide experienced more prosperity and leisure time, and less physical work. Since the 1920s, all Americans have consumed more fat and sugar and less starch and fiber. The greatest changes have occurred in consumption of fat. In the 1890s, the traditional Pima Indian diet consisted of only about 15 percent fat and was high in starch and fiber, but currently almost 40 percent of the calories in the Pima diet is derived from fat. As the typical American diet became more available on the reservation after the war, people became more overweight.

http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/pima/obesity/obesity.htm

In other words, at the end of the 19th century they started eating more calories (lard being a pretty high calorie food), and doing less work- a phenomenon that only got worse with time. Intake vs. output.

Please note the underlined sentence, also. Starch is a carb, by the way.
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« Reply #538 on: May 21, 2012, 04:55:12 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

Guess what? You won't.

I don't know how many times I have heard people eschew lifting weights because "I don't want to get bulky". I don't know about in your town, but I haven't exactly noticed that we have an outbreak of bodybuilders with single-digit body fat sweeping the nation.

You will never look anything like the linked photo because your body does not produce the required testosterone.


You will be relieved to know that during that particular sentence, my tongue was placed firmly against the inside of my cheek.

My point was summed up in my final sentence- namely, at the end of the day, calories in vs. calories out is king when it comes to weight loss.

Then why do impoverished people get fatter than richer people? You would think that as we go up the socio economic scale people would be fatter.
But the opposite is true. Obesity is far more prevalent among poor people. That is due to their carb based diets.

The Pima Indians are a classic example. They were once wealthy with overflowing store houses. They were slim. Once they became impoverished ( desperately so), obesity and diabetes soared.  How come?

In your first paragraph, are you talking about American poor? In a simplistic answer: because the Dollar Menu at McDonald's is cheaper than Whole Foods. A double cheeseburger is 440 calories, and it's a buck. It's cheap, calorie rich food. Poor people are fatter than rich people because in America, high calorie crap is cheap. But it still comes down to calories.

Nonsense.  A potato is what twenty-five cents or so in the US?  I ask as I honestly have no idea - they are are about 30 cents a kilogram in my parts.  Carrots are cheap.  I mean the normal kind, not the pre-washed, pre-cut kind.  Oatmeal - i.e the kind our grandparents had, not instant with a billion grams of added sugar is also cheap. Whole foods is all marketing and hence overpriced.  Granted my knowledge is all second hand via my sister, but she assures me it is very possible to find cheap produce from other sources.  Yes, food deserts do exist.  Yes, it is easier to eat at McDonalds than to make your own food.  Nonetheless there is an element of personal responsibility.         
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« Reply #539 on: May 21, 2012, 05:06:23 PM »

Weight lifting is not the answer for losing fat. Every time I've wanted to lose a few pounds, I've eaten less*. I'm not saying weight lifting is bad, but I don't do it because I'd rather not look like this.

Guess what? You won't.

I don't know how many times I have heard people eschew lifting weights because "I don't want to get bulky". I don't know about in your town, but I haven't exactly noticed that we have an outbreak of bodybuilders with single-digit body fat sweeping the nation.

You will never look anything like the linked photo because your body does not produce the required testosterone.


You will be relieved to know that during that particular sentence, my tongue was placed firmly against the inside of my cheek.

My point was summed up in my final sentence- namely, at the end of the day, calories in vs. calories out is king when it comes to weight loss.

Then why do impoverished people get fatter than richer people? You would think that as we go up the socio economic scale people would be fatter.
But the opposite is true. Obesity is far more prevalent among poor people. That is due to their carb based diets.

The Pima Indians are a classic example. They were once wealthy with overflowing store houses. They were slim. Once they became impoverished ( desperately so), obesity and diabetes soared.  How come?

In your first paragraph, are you talking about American poor? In a simplistic answer: because the Dollar Menu at McDonald's is cheaper than Whole Foods. A double cheeseburger is 440 calories, and it's a buck. It's cheap, calorie rich food. Poor people are fatter than rich people because in America, high calorie crap is cheap. But it still comes down to calories.

Nonsense.  A potato is what twenty-five cents or so in the US?  I ask as I honestly have no idea - they are are about 30 cents a kilogram in my parts.  Carrots are cheap.  I mean the normal kind, not the pre-washed, pre-cut kind.  Oatmeal - i.e the kind our grandparents had, not instant with a billion grams of added sugar is also cheap. Whole foods is all marketing and hence overpriced.  Granted my knowledge is all second hand via my sister, but she assures me it is very possible to find cheap produce from other sources.  Yes, food deserts do exist.  Yes, it is easier to eat at McDonalds than to make your own food.  Nonetheless there is an element of personal responsibility.         


I actually don't disagree with your bolded sentence at all. Marc and I were already talking in sweeping generalizations, as there certainly are fat rich people and thin poor people.
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