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Marc1152
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« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2009, 04:21:54 PM »

Here are some references if you want to read what the skeptics say about Cholesterol and Heart Disease.

Anything by Mary Enig MD is very good. She is the Doctor who exposed how bad "Transfats" are for you. Transfats are artificial fats refined from oils... They are a killer. She is trying to get people to go back to natural saturated fats. The cholesterol question and the fat issue are interlinked. The Soy and vegetable oil industry were big backers of Cholesterol miss information..

Know Your Fats: The Complete Primer for Understanding the Nutrition of Fats, Oils, and Cholesterol by Mary Enig, MD

You can google on her name and read several articles.

She also wrote :Eat Fat to lose Fat with Sally Fallon


Another good book is; The Cholesterol Hoax by Sherry Reynolds MD

And here is a link to more info.

http://whale.to/a/cholesterol.html

and

www.westonaprice.org
 








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« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2009, 07:04:39 PM »

The only thing I really watch is calories. I try to eat only the amount of calories appropriate for my age, sex, physical activity level, and etc. I do like the concept of the paleo diet, but I'm probably more a fan of the idea that you should eat what your cultural heritage has always eaten and just don't be gluttonous about it.
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« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2009, 07:23:48 PM »

The only thing I really watch is calories. I try to eat only the amount of calories appropriate for my age, sex, physical activity level, and etc. I do like the concept of the paleo diet, but I'm probably more a fan of the idea that you should eat what your cultural heritage has always eaten and just don't be gluttonous about it.
I thought you had left! Welcome back MS Smiley

If I did that, I be eating Baked Beans and Eggs, blood sausage, scotch eggs, lots of potatoes, lots of cabbage, and a banger with my brandy and orange juice in the morning! UUUR...yah, not for me.
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« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2009, 10:41:11 PM »

The only thing I really watch is calories. I try to eat only the amount of calories appropriate for my age, sex, physical activity level, and etc. I do like the concept of the paleo diet, but I'm probably more a fan of the idea that you should eat what your cultural heritage has always eaten and just don't be gluttonous about it.
I thought you had left! Welcome back MS Smiley

If I did that, I be eating Baked Beans and Eggs, blood sausage, scotch eggs, lots of potatoes, lots of cabbage, and a banger with my brandy and orange juice in the morning! UUUR...yah, not for me.

Just eat: Blood sausage, eggs ( I dont know what scotch eggs are)...cabbage, bangers and OJ and you will get healthy. Skip the potatoes and beans
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« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2009, 11:28:34 PM »

( I dont know what scotch eggs are)

Take a shelled hard-boiled egg, coat it in sausage meat, pack some breadcrumbs on it, then deep fry it all.
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« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2009, 12:15:29 AM »

( I dont know what scotch eggs are)

Take a shelled hard-boiled egg, coat it in sausage meat, pack some breadcrumbs on it, then deep fry it all.
mmm.
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« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2009, 12:16:36 AM »

The only thing I really watch is calories. I try to eat only the amount of calories appropriate for my age, sex, physical activity level, and etc. I do like the concept of the paleo diet, but I'm probably more a fan of the idea that you should eat what your cultural heritage has always eaten and just don't be gluttonous about it.
I thought you had left! Welcome back MS Smiley

If I did that, I be eating Baked Beans and Eggs, blood sausage, scotch eggs, lots of potatoes, lots of cabbage, and a banger with my brandy and orange juice in the morning! UUUR...yah, not for me.

Just eat: Blood sausage, eggs ( I dont know what scotch eggs are)...cabbage, bangers and OJ and you will get healthy. Skip the potatoes and beans
what, no brandy!!?
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« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2009, 11:32:11 AM »

( I dont know what scotch eggs are)

Take a shelled hard-boiled egg, coat it in sausage meat, pack some breadcrumbs on it, then deep fry it all.

And the funny thing is, the only really bad part of that are the bread crumbs..  Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2009, 12:23:11 PM »

No arguing so far... off to a good start!  Well I don't want to be the guy who bursts the baloon, so I'll avoid disagreeing as well. As for me, I have a couple medical conditions that makes it necessary to watch what I eat, but frankly, I probably eat a typical American diet. I've just found that an important part of diet is size of portions--what we Americans consider a "normal" portion would be large or even extremely large to many people in the world. A portion of meat the size of a deck of cards? Not in my house! Wink

I find that the thing that DRIVES appetite are carbs. If you eat nutrient dense foods, like pasture fed meat and skip the bread and potatoes and ice cream, you become naturally satiated without over eating. We are designed to eat lots of protein and fats, not sugar or potatoes, etc.

Eating a Traditional diet will lead you to your natural appetite, not too much not too little.. IMHO


I've come across this myself in recent months.  If I eat protein in the morning, I tend to not be hungry for lunch until after one in the afternoon.  If I indulge in just an English muffin, I'm starving by eleven in the morning.

YES !!!!.. My big discovery too.. I try to eat the meat left over from dinner the night before with an egg and fruit. NO BREAD and I am full till 3:00

No bread?  IS OUTRAGE!  Smiley  Have you heard of Ezekiel 4:9 bread?  It's supposed to be much better (nutritionally speaking) than white bread.  I wonder, though, if this should be avoided too?



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« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2009, 12:39:20 PM »

I thought you had left! Welcome back MS Smiley

Thank you. I didn't leave. I was just taking a break.
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« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2009, 12:39:43 PM »

I wonder how much influence the increased exposure to sunlight plays.  I'm not approaching this from a S.A.D. angle, but rather a "sunlight stimulates the body to produce certain vitamins & hormones" angle.

Don't know if they're linked, but as someone who has S.A.D., I can tell you sunlight helps bigtime.
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« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2009, 04:15:19 PM »

I would be careful with nutritional advice given from the Weston A. Price foundation. They have recently taken money and become more of a lobbying arm for the meat and dairy industry. If you look at Dr. Weston's original research (which I agree with), he found that out of all the indigenous tribes/peoples he observed around the globe, only one utilized milk. His initial assumptions were that most would utilize milk/dairy from pasture raised animals which obviously from his conclusions proved to be way off the mark. He was also shocked to find these people with amazing hygiene and dental health. Even today, some ethnic groups can't tolerate dairy at all because they lack the sufficient enzymes to break down lactose. Northern Europeans were also like this at one point, but over time our bodies adjusted and adapted to accept dairy (though it was raw and organic!) Dairy still remains to be one of the most common allergen/sensitivities for many people.         

With that said, dairy in my opinion has done much more harm than good; especially in its current poisonous PASTEURIZED form. The irony today is that while pasteurization of foods/beverages was supposed to insure a safe food supply for the masses, it may end up doing much more harm than good (I think we are seeing the proof of this today). It essentially denatures good enzymes and naturally occurring compounds in these foods. That's why with such things as milk or juices, they have to fortify it with vitamins. I think the biggest culprits leading to bad health today are all the refined grains, sugar, dairy products, and the long list of unnatural chemicals they put in processed foods.

I think a diet that contains mostly raw foods is one that would be most beneficial. A whole foods based diet which includes generous amounts of fruits, veggies, (especially dark leafy greens!); with healthy extra virgin oils, nuts, seeds, and organic meat (the more raw the better!) in moderation and balance. Use spices and lots of fresh herbs such as parsley, cilantro, basil, sage, rosemary, tarragon, mint, thyme etc... These are EXTREMELY healthy for you and chalked full of nutrition. Substitute cows milk for hemp or almond milk. Make a green smoothie everyday to get your day started which contains essential amino acids, nutrients, vitamins and enzymes. Substitute healthy teas in place of coffee or energy drinks. Use RAW organic unpasteurized locally grown honey or stevia instead of sugar if need be. Get's lots of fresh air and sunlight everyday. This will provide sufficient vitamin D which your body needs, which in turn bolsters your immunity and endocrine functions. Also, stay away from extreme diets such as Atkins or any that advocate removing whole natural food groups!

       
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Marc1152
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« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2009, 07:01:49 PM »

No arguing so far... off to a good start!  Well I don't want to be the guy who bursts the baloon, so I'll avoid disagreeing as well. As for me, I have a couple medical conditions that makes it necessary to watch what I eat, but frankly, I probably eat a typical American diet. I've just found that an important part of diet is size of portions--what we Americans consider a "normal" portion would be large or even extremely large to many people in the world. A portion of meat the size of a deck of cards? Not in my house! Wink

I find that the thing that DRIVES appetite are carbs. If you eat nutrient dense foods, like pasture fed meat and skip the bread and potatoes and ice cream, you become naturally satiated without over eating. We are designed to eat lots of protein and fats, not sugar or potatoes, etc.

Eating a Traditional diet will lead you to your natural appetite, not too much not too little.. IMHO


I've come across this myself in recent months.  If I eat protein in the morning, I tend to not be hungry for lunch until after one in the afternoon.  If I indulge in just an English muffin, I'm starving by eleven in the morning.

YES !!!!.. My big discovery too.. I try to eat the meat left over from dinner the night before with an egg and fruit. NO BREAD and I am full till 3:00

No bread?  IS OUTRAGE!  Smiley  Have you heard of Ezekiel 4:9 bread?  It's supposed to be much better (nutritionally speaking) than white bread.  I wonder, though, if this should be avoided too?





The idea is that humans ate the same diet for 2.5 million years so we are genetically predisposed to eating those foods. Agriculture began only 10,000 years ago, so there has not been enough time for us to adapt to these "new foods". Grains, beans and potatoes are toxic if eaten uncooked. Don't try it, you will get sick. You must cook off the toxins but even then some remain. So yes, your bread is not something that occurs in nature. It cant be hunted or picked from a tree, so you should try to stay clear of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 07:02:44 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2009, 07:13:50 PM »

I would be careful with nutritional advice given from the Weston A. Price foundation. They have recently taken money and become more of a lobbying arm for the meat and dairy industry. If you look at Dr. Weston's original research (which I agree with), he found that out of all the indigenous tribes/peoples he observed around the globe, only one utilized milk. His initial assumptions were that most would utilize milk/dairy from pasture raised animals which obviously from his conclusions proved to be way off the mark. He was also shocked to find these people with amazing hygiene and dental health. Even today, some ethnic groups can't tolerate dairy at all because they lack the sufficient enzymes to break down lactose. Northern Europeans were also like this at one point, but over time our bodies adjusted and adapted to accept dairy (though it was raw and organic!) Dairy still remains to be one of the most common allergen/sensitivities for many people.          

With that said, dairy in my opinion has done much more harm than good; especially in its current poisonous PASTEURIZED form. The irony today is that while pasteurization of foods/beverages was supposed to insure a safe food supply for the masses, it may end up doing much more harm than good (I think we are seeing the proof of this today). It essentially denatures good enzymes and naturally occurring compounds in these foods. That's why with such things as milk or juices, they have to fortify it with vitamins. I think the biggest culprits leading to bad health today are all the refined grains, sugar, dairy products, and the long list of unnatural chemicals they put in processed foods.

I think a diet that contains mostly raw foods is one that would be most beneficial. A whole foods based diet which includes generous amounts of fruits, veggies, (especially dark leafy greens!); with healthy extra virgin oils, nuts, seeds, and organic meat (the more raw the better!) in moderation and balance. Use spices and lots of fresh herbs such as parsley, cilantro, basil, sage, rosemary, tarragon, mint, thyme etc... These are EXTREMELY healthy for you and chalked full of nutrition. Substitute cows milk for hemp or almond milk. Make a green smoothie everyday to get your day started which contains essential amino acids, nutrients, vitamins and enzymes. Substitute healthy teas in place of coffee or energy drinks. Use RAW organic unpasteurized locally grown honey or stevia instead of sugar if need be. Get's lots of fresh air and sunlight everyday. This will provide sufficient vitamin D which your body needs, which in turn bolsters your immunity and endocrine functions. Also, stay away from extreme diets such as Atkins or any that advocate removing whole natural food groups!

        

Can you provide a source that the Weston Price Foundation takes money from the Dairy industry? It seems to me that they are the unrelenting enemy of the Dairy Industry since they are the biggest advocates in the World of Raw Dairy ( un pasteurized milk). You accusation doesn't add up.

 Weston Price people like me advocate Raw Milk ( that is all I drink) . I think you are confused who the players are and which side they are on.

www.realmilk.com for more information on Raw Milk and it's advocacy by the Weston Price Foundation.

The Dairy industry hates the idea of making Raw Milk easily available. Boiling milk ( pasteurization) allows for a  far greater shelf time and the ability to transport milk over long distances. It ruins the milk's nutritional value ( as does Homogenization) but there is very big bucks involved.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 07:14:35 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2009, 06:17:00 PM »

Here is some more information for Nacho who said the Weston Price Foundation is a lobbying arm for the Meat and Dairy Industry :

I guess you will need to define the term "Industry". Big Agra Business is for confinement raising of meat. They feed the cattle un natural grains and other terrible stuff and never allow them to see the light of day. They pump them full of antibiotics to keep them alive long enough to slaughter. They also give them all kinds of hormones to fatten them quicker.

The Weston Price Foundation stands with small Farmers and advocates for them. The are for grass fed meat ( Pastured Chickens) who are not confined and are hormone free. They are the foe of Big Agrabusiness and certainly not their lobbying arm LOL.

Same with Dairy as I wrote before. Weston Price foundation is for grass fed natural un pasteurized Dairy... The Dairy industry would like them dead much less fund them.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 06:18:39 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2009, 09:39:50 PM »

No arguing so far... off to a good start!  Well I don't want to be the guy who bursts the baloon, so I'll avoid disagreeing as well. As for me, I have a couple medical conditions that makes it necessary to watch what I eat, but frankly, I probably eat a typical American diet. I've just found that an important part of diet is size of portions--what we Americans consider a "normal" portion would be large or even extremely large to many people in the world. A portion of meat the size of a deck of cards? Not in my house! Wink

I find that the thing that DRIVES appetite are carbs. If you eat nutrient dense foods, like pasture fed meat and skip the bread and potatoes and ice cream, you become naturally satiated without over eating. We are designed to eat lots of protein and fats, not sugar or potatoes, etc.

Eating a Traditional diet will lead you to your natural appetite, not too much not too little.. IMHO


I've come across this myself in recent months.  If I eat protein in the morning, I tend to not be hungry for lunch until after one in the afternoon.  If I indulge in just an English muffin, I'm starving by eleven in the morning.

YES !!!!.. My big discovery too.. I try to eat the meat left over from dinner the night before with an egg and fruit. NO BREAD and I am full till 3:00

No bread?  IS OUTRAGE!  Smiley  Have you heard of Ezekiel 4:9 bread?  It's supposed to be much better (nutritionally speaking) than white bread.  I wonder, though, if this should be avoided too?





The idea is that humans ate the same diet for 2.5 million years so we are genetically predisposed to eating those foods. Agriculture began only 10,000 years ago, so there has not been enough time for us to adapt to these "new foods". Grains, beans and potatoes are toxic if eaten uncooked. Don't try it, you will get sick. You must cook off the toxins but even then some remain. So yes, your bread is not something that occurs in nature. It cant be hunted or picked from a tree, so you should try to stay clear of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M
Parts of that statement are untrue, and the rest is misleading. First of all, potatoes are not poisonous; only the leaves of the potato plant are (and highly so at that). A raw potato is not very appetizing, but it's not toxic either, unless it's green or the buds have begun to sprout.

http://www.botanical-online.com/alcaloidespatataangles.htm

As for the assertion that we should eat like our prehistoric ancestors, there are two major issues: How do you know what their genetic dispositions are? How much of what our ancestors ate (and we actually know very little about that even) was out of necessity? Certainly you recognize that the pre-civilised world was less than ideal. Furthermore, 10,000 years is for humans about 500 generations. The Theory of Evolution states that each generation is more suited to its parents' environment that the parent generation was. It's silly to believe that we are just the same as our species was 500 generations ago, let alone 100,000. And no, we are not genetically identical to our ancestors from 2.5 million years ago. In fact, we're not even the same species.

However, you are correct that raw beans are toxic, especially phaseolus vulgaris, or the common red kidney bean. It contains a high level of hemagglutinin, a toxic substance, which can cause abdominal pain, diarrhea, and sometimes vomiting. What you failed to realize, though, is that this toxin is potentiated by cooking, not "cooked off," as you claim. Hence why chili gives so many people these symptoms. White kidney beans contain less than 10% of the hemagglutinin that red beans do, and thus are much safer to eat.

http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/foodborneillness/foodborneillnessfoodbornepathogensnaturaltoxins/badbugbook/ucm071092.htm

The raw grains assertion is new to me. Would you mind explaining what toxins are contained in particular raw grains?
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« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2009, 03:51:43 AM »

Here is some more information for Nacho who said the Weston Price Foundation is a lobbying arm for the Meat and Dairy Industry :

I guess you will need to define the term "Industry". Big Agra Business is for confinement raising of meat. They feed the cattle un natural grains and other terrible stuff and never allow them to see the light of day. They pump them full of antibiotics to keep them alive long enough to slaughter. They also give them all kinds of hormones to fatten them quicker.

The Weston Price Foundation stands with small Farmers and advocates for them. The are for grass fed meat ( Pastured Chickens) who are not confined and are hormone free. They are the foe of Big Agrabusiness and certainly not their lobbying arm LOL.

Same with Dairy as I wrote before. Weston Price foundation is for grass fed natural un pasteurized Dairy... The Dairy industry would like them dead much less fund them.

Yes, I should have clarified more. I'm well aware that they are opponents of "Factory Farming" and applaud them for these efforts. It's absolutely disgusting the power and control a few large corporations wield over our food supply. Our food supply is very unsafe as it is because corporations like Monsanto have bought off the politicians and FDA with money and bribes. The great fruits of capitalism in America!

I still though would like to know who is funding the Weston A Price foundation. I'm very suspicious why they are pushing dairy products such as milk when it conflicts with the findings and conclusions of Weston A Price himself. Red flags are also raised with their anti-soy rants; which by the way are the same tactics employed by corporations with large stakes in the dairy industry. They feel very threatened by soy and it's byproducts such as soy milk. Soy in its fermented form has many beneficial properties and many Asian cultures have this as a staple. These are some of the healthiest populations of people represented across the globe. It's somewhat disingenuous for this foundation to rant against soy (and for what reason?) when dairy and it's byproducts are far more questionable. (As an aside, I'm totally against GMO Soy) 

I would also like to point out that we are the only mammals whom consume milk past childhood. Is it really healthy for adults to consume milk? I think we have to look at the PURPOSE and FUNCTION of milk. It specifically has very nourishing properties for infants, but it's also very SEDATING as well. From an evolutionary perspective, this sedating effect of milk was one factor that kept offspring to stay close to their mother.

So with that said, I think this a good parallel to the 'numbing' affect that dairy products have on our population. It's made much worse when everything is pasteurized. It's like a good portion of the population are walking obese zombies... Grin I just think dairy is not the greatest choice nutritionally speaking. I used to consume a decent amount of dairy products, but lately have treated it more like a dessert. Once in awhile isn't that bad and makes a nice treat.     
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« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2009, 12:46:53 PM »

No arguing so far... off to a good start!  Well I don't want to be the guy who bursts the baloon, so I'll avoid disagreeing as well. As for me, I have a couple medical conditions that makes it necessary to watch what I eat, but frankly, I probably eat a typical American diet. I've just found that an important part of diet is size of portions--what we Americans consider a "normal" portion would be large or even extremely large to many people in the world. A portion of meat the size of a deck of cards? Not in my house! Wink

I find that the thing that DRIVES appetite are carbs. If you eat nutrient dense foods, like pasture fed meat and skip the bread and potatoes and ice cream, you become naturally satiated without over eating. We are designed to eat lots of protein and fats, not sugar or potatoes, etc.

Eating a Traditional diet will lead you to your natural appetite, not too much not too little.. IMHO


I've come across this myself in recent months.  If I eat protein in the morning, I tend to not be hungry for lunch until after one in the afternoon.  If I indulge in just an English muffin, I'm starving by eleven in the morning.

YES !!!!.. My big discovery too.. I try to eat the meat left over from dinner the night before with an egg and fruit. NO BREAD and I am full till 3:00

No bread?  IS OUTRAGE!  Smiley  Have you heard of Ezekiel 4:9 bread?  It's supposed to be much better (nutritionally speaking) than white bread.  I wonder, though, if this should be avoided too?





The idea is that humans ate the same diet for 2.5 million years so we are genetically predisposed to eating those foods. Agriculture began only 10,000 years ago, so there has not been enough time for us to adapt to these "new foods". Grains, beans and potatoes are toxic if eaten uncooked. Don't try it, you will get sick. You must cook off the toxins but even then some remain. So yes, your bread is not something that occurs in nature. It cant be hunted or picked from a tree, so you should try to stay clear of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M
Parts of that statement are untrue, and the rest is misleading. First of all, potatoes are not poisonous; only the leaves of the potato plant are (and highly so at that). A raw potato is not very appetizing, but it's not toxic either, unless it's green or the buds have begun to sprout.

http://www.botanical-online.com/alcaloidespatataangles.htm

As for the assertion that we should eat like our prehistoric ancestors, there are two major issues: How do you know what their genetic dispositions are? How much of what our ancestors ate (and we actually know very little about that even) was out of necessity? Certainly you recognize that the pre-civilised world was less than ideal. Furthermore, 10,000 years is for humans about 500 generations. The Theory of Evolution states that each generation is more suited to its parents' environment that the parent generation was. It's silly to believe that we are just the same as our species was 500 generations ago, let alone 100,000. And no, we are not genetically identical to our ancestors from 2.5 million years ago. In fact, we're not even the same species.

However, you are correct that raw beans are toxic, especially phaseolus vulgaris, or the common red kidney bean. It contains a high level of hemagglutinin, a toxic substance, which can cause abdominal pain, diarrhea, and sometimes vomiting. What you failed to realize, though, is that this toxin is potentiated by cooking, not "cooked off," as you claim. Hence why chili gives so many people these symptoms. White kidney beans contain less than 10% of the hemagglutinin that red beans do, and thus are much safer to eat.

http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/foodborneillness/foodborneillnessfoodbornepathogensnaturaltoxins/badbugbook/ucm071092.htm

The raw grains assertion is new to me. Would you mind explaining what toxins are contained in particular raw grains?

I am simply repeating the idea's found in the Book "The Paleo Diet". They have a web site that you can go to and ask your questions to them.

What I do know is that 10,000 years is not enough time for too much evolutionary adaptation. It seems to make perfect sense that if we ate a specific diet for 2.5 million years that we are better  suited to it than a diet of less then 10,000 ( and far far far less for highly refined foods).

I personally stand more with the Weston Price type of eating. There are several major differences between what the Weston Price folks recommend and the Paleo Diet. For example, the Plaeo Diet says no Dairy at all. The Weston Price Diet says unpasteurized Dairy is one of the best foods you can consume ( more on Dairy later). The Weston Price Diet includes lost of fats, the Paleo Diet says lean meat only and cut the fat. The Weston Price Diets is skeptical of the cholesterol-lipid theory , The Paleo Diet supports the standard Heart Association Dogma.

Here is the web page for the Plaeo Diet: www.theplaeodiet.com Let us know if you get some answers.

There are a few other Hunter Gatherer type Diet books. One is The Primal Diet. The author includes Raw Milk. I may get a copy under the tree is Santa read my list. I will let you know what it says.
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« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2009, 12:50:30 PM »

The idea is that humans ate the same diet for 2.5 million years so we are genetically predisposed to eating those foods. Agriculture began only 10,000 years ago, so there has not been enough time for us to adapt to these "new foods". Grains, beans and potatoes are toxic if eaten uncooked. Don't try it, you will get sick. You must cook off the toxins but even then some remain. So yes, your bread is not something that occurs in nature. It cant be hunted or picked from a tree, so you should try to stay clear of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M
Parts of that statement are untrue, and the rest is misleading. First of all, potatoes are not poisonous; only the leaves of the potato plant are (and highly so at that). A raw potato is not very appetizing, but it's not toxic either, unless it's green or the buds have begun to sprout.

http://www.botanical-online.com/alcaloidespatataangles.htm

As for the assertion that we should eat like our prehistoric ancestors, there are two major issues: How do you know what their genetic dispositions are? How much of what our ancestors ate (and we actually know very little about that even) was out of necessity? Certainly you recognize that the pre-civilised world was less than ideal. Furthermore, 10,000 years is for humans about 500 generations. The Theory of Evolution states that each generation is more suited to its parents' environment that the parent generation was. It's silly to believe that we are just the same as our species was 500 generations ago, let alone 100,000. And no, we are not genetically identical to our ancestors from 2.5 million years ago. In fact, we're not even the same species.

However, you are correct that raw beans are toxic, especially phaseolus vulgaris, or the common red kidney bean. It contains a high level of hemagglutinin, a toxic substance, which can cause abdominal pain, diarrhea, and sometimes vomiting. What you failed to realize, though, is that this toxin is potentiated by cooking, not "cooked off," as you claim. Hence why chili gives so many people these symptoms. White kidney beans contain less than 10% of the hemagglutinin that red beans do, and thus are much safer to eat.

http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/foodborneillness/foodborneillnessfoodbornepathogensnaturaltoxins/badbugbook/ucm071092.htm

The raw grains assertion is new to me. Would you mind explaining what toxins are contained in particular raw grains?
I am simply repeating the idea's found in the Book "The Paleo Diet". They have a web site that you can go to and ask you questions to them.

What I do know is that 10,000 years is not enough time for too much evolutionary adaptation. It seems to make perfect sense that if we ate a specific diet for 2.5 million years that we are better to suited to it than a diet of less then 10,000 ( and even less for highly refined foods).
But how do you know that we ate the same diet for 2.5 million years? I find that idea ludicrous, especially considering that the species homo sapiens has only existed for around 100,000 years. Homo habilis et al. are as different from us as lions (pantera leo) and tigers (pantera tigris) are from each other.
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« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2009, 12:58:17 PM »

The idea is that humans ate the same diet for 2.5 million years so we are genetically predisposed to eating those foods. Agriculture began only 10,000 years ago, so there has not been enough time for us to adapt to these "new foods". Grains, beans and potatoes are toxic if eaten uncooked. Don't try it, you will get sick. You must cook off the toxins but even then some remain. So yes, your bread is not something that occurs in nature. It cant be hunted or picked from a tree, so you should try to stay clear of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M
Parts of that statement are untrue, and the rest is misleading. First of all, potatoes are not poisonous; only the leaves of the potato plant are (and highly so at that). A raw potato is not very appetizing, but it's not toxic either, unless it's green or the buds have begun to sprout.

http://www.botanical-online.com/alcaloidespatataangles.htm

As for the assertion that we should eat like our prehistoric ancestors, there are two major issues: How do you know what their genetic dispositions are? How much of what our ancestors ate (and we actually know very little about that even) was out of necessity? Certainly you recognize that the pre-civilised world was less than ideal. Furthermore, 10,000 years is for humans about 500 generations. The Theory of Evolution states that each generation is more suited to its parents' environment that the parent generation was. It's silly to believe that we are just the same as our species was 500 generations ago, let alone 100,000. And no, we are not genetically identical to our ancestors from 2.5 million years ago. In fact, we're not even the same species.

However, you are correct that raw beans are toxic, especially phaseolus vulgaris, or the common red kidney bean. It contains a high level of hemagglutinin, a toxic substance, which can cause abdominal pain, diarrhea, and sometimes vomiting. What you failed to realize, though, is that this toxin is potentiated by cooking, not "cooked off," as you claim. Hence why chili gives so many people these symptoms. White kidney beans contain less than 10% of the hemagglutinin that red beans do, and thus are much safer to eat.

http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/foodborneillness/foodborneillnessfoodbornepathogensnaturaltoxins/badbugbook/ucm071092.htm

The raw grains assertion is new to me. Would you mind explaining what toxins are contained in particular raw grains?
I am simply repeating the idea's found in the Book "The Paleo Diet". They have a web site that you can go to and ask you questions to them.

What I do know is that 10,000 years is not enough time for too much evolutionary adaptation. It seems to make perfect sense that if we ate a specific diet for 2.5 million years that we are better to suited to it than a diet of less then 10,000 ( and even less for highly refined foods).
But how do you know that we ate the same diet for 2.5 million years? I find that idea ludicrous, especially considering that the species homo sapiens has only existed for around 100,000 years. Homo habilis et al. are as different from us as lions (pantera leo) and tigers (pantera tigris) are from each other.

Hunter gatherers only ate what they could hunt or gather. That is a pretty limited list. But yes, as I mentioned before, there is some swing in knowing exactly what they ate. For example, did they prefer fat or muscle? But we do know that they did not have agriculture so that puts a limit on the list of possibilities.

Go to their web page. There is a faq www.thepaleodiet.com

Do you think cave me ate refined foods? Coke a cola? How about bread? or muffins? Sugar?
So simple common sense can lead you to that kind of Diet if you simply ask: Can  I hunt or gather what I am about to eat? Does it occur in nature and if not how far removed is it? Seems simple enough to me.
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« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2009, 01:07:51 PM »

The idea is that humans ate the same diet for 2.5 million years so we are genetically predisposed to eating those foods. Agriculture began only 10,000 years ago, so there has not been enough time for us to adapt to these "new foods". Grains, beans and potatoes are toxic if eaten uncooked. Don't try it, you will get sick. You must cook off the toxins but even then some remain. So yes, your bread is not something that occurs in nature. It cant be hunted or picked from a tree, so you should try to stay clear of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M
Parts of that statement are untrue, and the rest is misleading. First of all, potatoes are not poisonous; only the leaves of the potato plant are (and highly so at that). A raw potato is not very appetizing, but it's not toxic either, unless it's green or the buds have begun to sprout.

http://www.botanical-online.com/alcaloidespatataangles.htm

As for the assertion that we should eat like our prehistoric ancestors, there are two major issues: How do you know what their genetic dispositions are? How much of what our ancestors ate (and we actually know very little about that even) was out of necessity? Certainly you recognize that the pre-civilised world was less than ideal. Furthermore, 10,000 years is for humans about 500 generations. The Theory of Evolution states that each generation is more suited to its parents' environment that the parent generation was. It's silly to believe that we are just the same as our species was 500 generations ago, let alone 100,000. And no, we are not genetically identical to our ancestors from 2.5 million years ago. In fact, we're not even the same species.

However, you are correct that raw beans are toxic, especially phaseolus vulgaris, or the common red kidney bean. It contains a high level of hemagglutinin, a toxic substance, which can cause abdominal pain, diarrhea, and sometimes vomiting. What you failed to realize, though, is that this toxin is potentiated by cooking, not "cooked off," as you claim. Hence why chili gives so many people these symptoms. White kidney beans contain less than 10% of the hemagglutinin that red beans do, and thus are much safer to eat.

http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/foodborneillness/foodborneillnessfoodbornepathogensnaturaltoxins/badbugbook/ucm071092.htm

The raw grains assertion is new to me. Would you mind explaining what toxins are contained in particular raw grains?
I am simply repeating the idea's found in the Book "The Paleo Diet". They have a web site that you can go to and ask you questions to them.

What I do know is that 10,000 years is not enough time for too much evolutionary adaptation. It seems to make perfect sense that if we ate a specific diet for 2.5 million years that we are better to suited to it than a diet of less then 10,000 ( and even less for highly refined foods).
But how do you know that we ate the same diet for 2.5 million years? I find that idea ludicrous, especially considering that the species homo sapiens has only existed for around 100,000 years. Homo habilis et al. are as different from us as lions (pantera leo) and tigers (pantera tigris) are from each other.

Hunter gatherers only ate what they could hunt or gather. That is a pretty limited list. But yes, as I mentioned before, there is some swing in knowing exactly what they ate. For example, did they prefer fat or muscle? But we do know that they did not have agriculture so that puts a limit on the list of possibilities.

Go to their web page. There is a faq www.thepaleodiet.com

Do you think cave me ate refined foods? Coke a cola? How about bread? or muffins? Sugar?
So simple common sense can lead you to that kind of Diet if you simply ask: Can  I hunt or gather what I am about to eat? Does it occur in nature and if not how far removed is it? Seems simple enough to me.
Too simple.
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« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2009, 03:26:35 PM »

I'm pretty sure, that if learning the basic essentials to breadmaking kept man alive for thousands of years, it would serve to say that bread is good. there are many cases where meat could not travel, due to obvious spoilage, yet bread, pemmican, and other dried sundries were the essentials when neither fresh meat or vegetables were not available.
It is optimal to get a fresh, local, sustainable, healthy diet...but let's not go overboard. Even health needs to be taken in moderation.
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« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2009, 03:45:09 PM »

The idea is that humans ate the same diet for 2.5 million years so we are genetically predisposed to eating those foods. Agriculture began only 10,000 years ago, so there has not been enough time for us to adapt to these "new foods". Grains, beans and potatoes are toxic if eaten uncooked. Don't try it, you will get sick. You must cook off the toxins but even then some remain. So yes, your bread is not something that occurs in nature. It cant be hunted or picked from a tree, so you should try to stay clear of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M
Parts of that statement are untrue, and the rest is misleading. First of all, potatoes are not poisonous; only the leaves of the potato plant are (and highly so at that). A raw potato is not very appetizing, but it's not toxic either, unless it's green or the buds have begun to sprout.

http://www.botanical-online.com/alcaloidespatataangles.htm

As for the assertion that we should eat like our prehistoric ancestors, there are two major issues: How do you know what their genetic dispositions are? How much of what our ancestors ate (and we actually know very little about that even) was out of necessity? Certainly you recognize that the pre-civilised world was less than ideal. Furthermore, 10,000 years is for humans about 500 generations. The Theory of Evolution states that each generation is more suited to its parents' environment that the parent generation was. It's silly to believe that we are just the same as our species was 500 generations ago, let alone 100,000. And no, we are not genetically identical to our ancestors from 2.5 million years ago. In fact, we're not even the same species.

However, you are correct that raw beans are toxic, especially phaseolus vulgaris, or the common red kidney bean. It contains a high level of hemagglutinin, a toxic substance, which can cause abdominal pain, diarrhea, and sometimes vomiting. What you failed to realize, though, is that this toxin is potentiated by cooking, not "cooked off," as you claim. Hence why chili gives so many people these symptoms. White kidney beans contain less than 10% of the hemagglutinin that red beans do, and thus are much safer to eat.

http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/foodborneillness/foodborneillnessfoodbornepathogensnaturaltoxins/badbugbook/ucm071092.htm

The raw grains assertion is new to me. Would you mind explaining what toxins are contained in particular raw grains?
I am simply repeating the idea's found in the Book "The Paleo Diet". They have a web site that you can go to and ask you questions to them.

What I do know is that 10,000 years is not enough time for too much evolutionary adaptation. It seems to make perfect sense that if we ate a specific diet for 2.5 million years that we are better to suited to it than a diet of less then 10,000 ( and even less for highly refined foods).
But how do you know that we ate the same diet for 2.5 million years? I find that idea ludicrous, especially considering that the species homo sapiens has only existed for around 100,000 years. Homo habilis et al. are as different from us as lions (pantera leo) and tigers (pantera tigris) are from each other.

Hunter gatherers only ate what they could hunt or gather. That is a pretty limited list. But yes, as I mentioned before, there is some swing in knowing exactly what they ate. For example, did they prefer fat or muscle? But we do know that they did not have agriculture so that puts a limit on the list of possibilities.

Go to their web page. There is a FAQ www.thepaleodiet.com

Do you think cave me ate refined foods? Coke a cola? How about bread? or muffins? Sugar?
So simple common sense can lead you to that kind of Diet if you simply ask: Can  I hunt or gather what I am about to eat? Does it occur in nature and if not how far removed is it? Seems simple enough to me.
Too simple.

People seem to have good results when they eat this way. Weight normalizes, blood cholesterol goes down, various diseases improve or clear up. The proof is in the pudding ( don't actually eat pudding, it's bad for you:)

On the other hand, high carb, refined foods, sugary diets, loaded with vegetable oils and without saturated fats seems to have hurt our health
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« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2009, 03:49:17 PM »

I'm pretty sure, that if learning the basic essentials to breadmaking kept man alive for thousands of years, it would serve to say that bread is good. there are many cases where meat could not travel, due to obvious spoilage, yet bread, pemmican, and other dried sundries were the essentials when neither fresh meat or vegetables were not available.
It is optimal to get a fresh, local, sustainable, healthy diet...but let's not go overboard. Even health needs to be taken in moderation.

There is an advantage to eating grains ( bread). You can squeeze far more calories out of the area in which you live, thus enabling a larger population. That is the benefit of the Agricultural revolution and it helped form civilization. The question for today is, what type of diet will keep me healthy and living longer without the curse of so many modern ailments like obesity, diabetes, heart disease etc.
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« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2009, 03:52:09 PM »

I'm pretty sure, that if learning the basic essentials to breadmaking kept man alive for thousands of years, it would serve to say that bread is good. there are many cases where meat could not travel, due to obvious spoilage, yet bread, pemmican, and other dried sundries were the essentials when neither fresh meat or vegetables were not available.
It is optimal to get a fresh, local, sustainable, healthy diet...but let's not go overboard. Even health needs to be taken in moderation.
Exactly. A food is not evil merely because it's been processed. I for one think agriculture is a great idea, but the industrialization of agriculture is on the whole unhealthy and unsustainable. We try to eat fresh foods with as little processing as possible (even corn that has been shucked has, by definition, been processed). We buy from a farmers' market and freeze for winter, rather than buying frozen or canned fruits and vegetables. But we still buy breads and cheeses, yogurt and olives, saurkraut and pickles. All these foods have been processed, yet all of them are fairly healthy. Like you say, everything in moderation.
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« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2009, 04:08:32 PM »

I'm pretty sure, that if learning the basic essentials to breadmaking kept man alive for thousands of years, it would serve to say that bread is good. there are many cases where meat could not travel, due to obvious spoilage, yet bread, pemmican, and other dried sundries were the essentials when neither fresh meat or vegetables were not available.
It is optimal to get a fresh, local, sustainable, healthy diet...but let's not go overboard. Even health needs to be taken in moderation.
Exactly. A food is not evil merely because it's been processed. I for one think agriculture is a great idea, but the industrialization of agriculture is on the whole unhealthy and unsustainable. We try to eat fresh foods with as little processing as possible (even corn that has been shucked has, by definition, been processed). We buy from a farmers' market and freeze for winter, rather than buying frozen or canned fruits and vegetables. But we still buy breads and cheeses, yogurt and olives, saurkraut and pickles. All these foods have been processed, yet all of them are fairly healthy. Like you say, everything in moderation.

I'm pretty sure that the admonition against "Processed foods" does not included shucking corn. I think the rule to keep in mind is to ask how far removed from nature is it? Shucking corn..not very far , Cup Cakes, artificial sweetners and Kool Whip..are.

The more reasonable question to ask is how much meat should I eat or any meat at all? Should it be more naturally raised or not? Should I drink Milk and if so can I get unrefined Milk and Cheese and what's the difference? Should I limit my food to Meat, Eggs vegetables, raw dairy, fruit nuts berries etc, or is pie and ice cream okay too?

Can I eat sugar or transfats? Are saturated fats really bad for me? What about cholesterol counts, should I care about mine?

Those are the real questions.

As to fermented foods like sauerkraut, you will find that these are often part of Traditional Diets. Fermented foods can be thought of as "super raw" in that the process increases the various beneficial enzymes in the food even over what is there in the raw state. Kefir ( fermented Milk) is popular among people following a more Traditional ( Weston Price type) diet 
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« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2009, 05:22:14 PM »

I'm pretty sure, that if learning the basic essentials to breadmaking kept man alive for thousands of years, it would serve to say that bread is good. there are many cases where meat could not travel, due to obvious spoilage, yet bread, pemmican, and other dried sundries were the essentials when neither fresh meat or vegetables were not available.
It is optimal to get a fresh, local, sustainable, healthy diet...but let's not go overboard. Even health needs to be taken in moderation.
Exactly. A food is not evil merely because it's been processed. I for one think agriculture is a great idea, but the industrialization of agriculture is on the whole unhealthy and unsustainable. We try to eat fresh foods with as little processing as possible (even corn that has been shucked has, by definition, been processed). We buy from a farmers' market and freeze for winter, rather than buying frozen or canned fruits and vegetables. But we still buy breads and cheeses, yogurt and olives, saurkraut and pickles. All these foods have been processed, yet all of them are fairly healthy. Like you say, everything in moderation.

I'm pretty sure that the admonition against "Processed foods" does not included shucking corn. I think the rule to keep in mind is to ask how far removed from nature is it? Shucking corn..not very far , Cup Cakes, artificial sweetners and Kool Whip..are.

The more reasonable question to ask is how much meat should I eat or any meat at all? Should it be more naturally raised or not? Should I drink Milk and if so can I get unrefined Milk and Cheese and what's the difference? Should I limit my food to Meat, Eggs vegetables, raw dairy, fruit nuts berries etc, or is pie and ice cream okay too?

Can I eat sugar or transfats? Are saturated fats really bad for me? What about cholesterol counts, should I care about mine?

Those are the real questions.

As to fermented foods like sauerkraut, you will find that these are often part of Traditional Diets. Fermented foods can be thought of as "super raw" in that the process increases the various beneficial enzymes in the food even over what is there in the raw state. Kefir ( fermented Milk) is popular among people following a more Traditional ( Weston Price type) diet 
Don't forget kim-chee too!
If I eat a cupcake, I make it myself usually with whole pastry flour and sweetened with cane or maple sugar, glazes and icings can be made in the same regard. I have yet to find someone who can provide me with hvy. cream (unpasturized) or I would use it. Pie and icecream, sure! In regards to food, I go by a simple rule...summed up - just use the best ingredients when you can, within budget or make something else. We should definitely consider our health and infact every step from the farm to the table and limit the amounts of step as much as possible. Are trans-fats bad? sure, don't go chugging down veggie oil, use duck fat to fry your potatoes if you must have some fried potatoes. I think everyone should eat conciously and hopefully, we as Orthodox Christians being mindful of our Fasts, should become aware of our glut, and strive to live a life which coincides with healthier, more sustainable living. In practice as a Chef, I see it as a good thing that the Private Owned Restaurant industry is at the forefront of this struggle against the mega-agri-chemical-congloms. I get to be a part of this first hand, in producing a product which is superior to what Mickey-Dee's can give. I only wish it wasn't too late. But I feel the response from the public is too little, too late to stop the Amazonian Cattle Lots and their ilk from spreading.
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« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2009, 05:52:01 PM »

I'm pretty sure, that if learning the basic essentials to breadmaking kept man alive for thousands of years, it would serve to say that bread is good. there are many cases where meat could not travel, due to obvious spoilage, yet bread, pemmican, and other dried sundries were the essentials when neither fresh meat or vegetables were not available.
It is optimal to get a fresh, local, sustainable, healthy diet...but let's not go overboard. Even health needs to be taken in moderation.
Exactly. A food is not evil merely because it's been processed. I for one think agriculture is a great idea, but the industrialization of agriculture is on the whole unhealthy and unsustainable. We try to eat fresh foods with as little processing as possible (even corn that has been shucked has, by definition, been processed). We buy from a farmers' market and freeze for winter, rather than buying frozen or canned fruits and vegetables. But we still buy breads and cheeses, yogurt and olives, saurkraut and pickles. All these foods have been processed, yet all of them are fairly healthy. Like you say, everything in moderation.

I'm pretty sure that the admonition against "Processed foods" does not included shucking corn. I think the rule to keep in mind is to ask how far removed from nature is it? Shucking corn..not very far , Cup Cakes, artificial sweetners and Kool Whip..are.

The more reasonable question to ask is how much meat should I eat or any meat at all? Should it be more naturally raised or not? Should I drink Milk and if so can I get unrefined Milk and Cheese and what's the difference? Should I limit my food to Meat, Eggs vegetables, raw dairy, fruit nuts berries etc, or is pie and ice cream okay too?

Can I eat sugar or transfats? Are saturated fats really bad for me? What about cholesterol counts, should I care about mine?

Those are the real questions.

As to fermented foods like sauerkraut, you will find that these are often part of Traditional Diets. Fermented foods can be thought of as "super raw" in that the process increases the various beneficial enzymes in the food even over what is there in the raw state. Kefir ( fermented Milk) is popular among people following a more Traditional ( Weston Price type) diet 
So you're admitting that agriculture and processing of foods is not necessarily a bad thing?
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« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2009, 07:50:10 PM »

I'm pretty sure, that if learning the basic essentials to breadmaking kept man alive for thousands of years, it would serve to say that bread is good. there are many cases where meat could not travel, due to obvious spoilage, yet bread, pemmican, and other dried sundries were the essentials when neither fresh meat or vegetables were not available.
It is optimal to get a fresh, local, sustainable, healthy diet...but let's not go overboard. Even health needs to be taken in moderation.
Exactly. A food is not evil merely because it's been processed. I for one think agriculture is a great idea, but the industrialization of agriculture is on the whole unhealthy and unsustainable. We try to eat fresh foods with as little processing as possible (even corn that has been shucked has, by definition, been processed). We buy from a farmers' market and freeze for winter, rather than buying frozen or canned fruits and vegetables. But we still buy breads and cheeses, yogurt and olives, saurkraut and pickles. All these foods have been processed, yet all of them are fairly healthy. Like you say, everything in moderation.

I'm pretty sure that the admonition against "Processed foods" does not included shucking corn. I think the rule to keep in mind is to ask how far removed from nature is it? Shucking corn..not very far , Cup Cakes, artificial sweeteners and Kool Whip..are.

The more reasonable question to ask is how much meat should I eat or any meat at all? Should it be more naturally raised or not? Should I drink Milk and if so can I get unrefined Milk and Cheese and what's the difference? Should I limit my food to Meat, Eggs vegetables, raw dairy, fruit nuts berries etc, or is pie and ice cream okay too?

Can I eat sugar or transfats? Are saturated fats really bad for me? What about cholesterol counts, should I care about mine?

Those are the real questions.

As to fermented foods like sauerkraut, you will find that these are often part of Traditional Diets. Fermented foods can be thought of as "super raw" in that the process increases the various beneficial enzymes in the food even over what is there in the raw state. Kefir ( fermented Milk) is popular among people following a more Traditional ( Weston Price type) diet  
Don't forget kim-chee too!
If I eat a cupcake, I make it myself usually with whole pastry flour and sweetened with cane or maple sugar, glazes and icings can be made in the same regard. I have yet to find someone who can provide me with hvy. cream (unpasteurized) or I would use it. Pie and icecream, sure! In regards to food, I go by a simple rule...summed up - just use the best ingredients when you can, within budget or make something else. We should definitely consider our health and infact every step from the farm to the table and limit the amounts of step as much as possible. Are trans-fats bad? sure, don't go chugging down veggie oil, use duck fat to fry your potatoes if you must have some fried potatoes. I think everyone should eat conciously and hopefully, we as Orthodox Christians being mindful of our Fasts, should become aware of our glut, and strive to live a life which coincides with healthier, more sustainable living. In practice as a Chef, I see it as a good thing that the Private Owned Restaurant industry is at the forefront of this struggle against the mega-agri-chemical-congloms. I get to be a part of this first hand, in producing a product which is superior to what Mickey-Dee's can give. I only wish it wasn't too late. But I feel the response from the public is too little, too late to stop the Amazonian Cattle Lots and their ilk from spreading.

As with all things there is always the choice between good , better and best.

For example, I am trying to incorporate more organ meats ( before and after our fast) into my diet. The best situation is to get the liver I like from a grass fed hormone free source. I just don't always have the time so I buy the regular old liver from the local supermarket. Not optimal but I am getting it into my diet. I have found that organ meats make all the difference in how much energy I have. I am going to buy a Beef heart from my Weston Price Farm Order source. I hope I can get it into the house without the family moving out.

If you let me know where you live, I may be able to help you find unpasteurized cream

Love Kim Chee.. But once again, its a family issue Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2009, 08:07:58 PM »

I'm pretty sure, that if learning the basic essentials to breadmaking kept man alive for thousands of years, it would serve to say that bread is good. there are many cases where meat could not travel, due to obvious spoilage, yet bread, pemmican, and other dried sundries were the essentials when neither fresh meat or vegetables were not available.
It is optimal to get a fresh, local, sustainable, healthy diet...but let's not go overboard. Even health needs to be taken in moderation.
Exactly. A food is not evil merely because it's been processed. I for one think agriculture is a great idea, but the industrialization of agriculture is on the whole unhealthy and unsustainable. We try to eat fresh foods with as little processing as possible (even corn that has been shucked has, by definition, been processed). We buy from a farmers' market and freeze for winter, rather than buying frozen or canned fruits and vegetables. But we still buy breads and cheeses, yogurt and olives, saurkraut and pickles. All these foods have been processed, yet all of them are fairly healthy. Like you say, everything in moderation.

I'm pretty sure that the admonition against "Processed foods" does not included shucking corn. I think the rule to keep in mind is to ask how far removed from nature is it? Shucking corn..not very far , Cup Cakes, artificial sweeteners and Kool Whip..are.

The more reasonable question to ask is how much meat should I eat or any meat at all? Should it be more naturally raised or not? Should I drink Milk and if so can I get unrefined Milk and Cheese and what's the difference? Should I limit my food to Meat, Eggs vegetables, raw dairy, fruit nuts berries etc, or is pie and ice cream okay too?

Can I eat sugar or transfats? Are saturated fats really bad for me? What about cholesterol counts, should I care about mine?

Those are the real questions.

As to fermented foods like sauerkraut, you will find that these are often part of Traditional Diets. Fermented foods can be thought of as "super raw" in that the process increases the various beneficial enzymes in the food even over what is there in the raw state. Kefir ( fermented Milk) is popular among people following a more Traditional ( Weston Price type) diet 
So you're admitting that agriculture and processing of foods is not necessarily a bad thing?

I am saying that it contributed to the great expansion of civilization. More calories from a relatively small area. The ability to stay put and not roam following herds obviously built society.

What I am saying is that only 10,000 years of agriculture is not enough time for human adaptation to those foods. They are not the most healthful for us. They provide calories and bulk but are not very nutrient dense and contain what the Paleo Diet folks call "Anti-Nutrients".

If you avoid highly refined foods and stick to something close to a Hunter Gatherer diet you will avoid many of the modern ailments. It is especially important to get clear on the role of fats in our diet and avoid like the plague vegetable oils,  and transfats (artificial fat made from vegetable oils) and reject the low fat diet advice that is currently in vogue. 

If you dont want to go back 10,000 years,  just go back 60 and eat like grandmother. No highly refined foods, lots of meat full fat, raw whole milk and cheese, vegitables and fruit. Liver once per week.....etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHMkdZ678Hs

This one is really funny:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InwsLaTvhzY

Disclaimer: the second video contains nudity and sexuality. Viewer discretion is advised.--YtterbiumAnalyst
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« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2009, 08:22:58 PM »

As with all things there is always the choice between good , better and best.

For example, I am trying to incorporate more organ meats ( before and after our fast) into my diet. The best situation is to get the liver I like from a grass fed hormone free source. I just don't always have the time so I buy the regular old liver from the local supermarket. Not optimal but I am getting it into my diet. I have found that organ meats make all the difference in how much energy I have. I am going to buy a Beef heart from my Weston Price Farm Order source. I hope I can get it into the house without the family moving out.

If you let me know where you live, I may be able to help you find unpasteurized cream

Love Kim Chee.. But once again, its a family issue Smiley
yes, I make it in 2 mason jars a year...it lasts a while since I'm the only one in the house to eat it.
Don't think I haven't tried to get a hold of some unpasturized cream. On a small scale, easy to come by, since I live in Western Oregon...but for restaurants it's a whole other can of worms...you can't sell it to the public. Well, you can (technically) sell it. But you have to have a sustainable market for it, or its not worth it. Suprisingly, even though the Northwest is on the move as a whole toward this direction,  the market is not "driving" yet. Consumers aren't voting with their wallet yet. Unfortunately, their was a major unpasturized juice company that got thier pants "sued-off" recently, from an outbreak of food borne bacteria. Things like this make people skeptical. 
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« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2009, 08:23:23 PM »

I'm pretty sure, that if learning the basic essentials to breadmaking kept man alive for thousands of years, it would serve to say that bread is good. there are many cases where meat could not travel, due to obvious spoilage, yet bread, pemmican, and other dried sundries were the essentials when neither fresh meat or vegetables were not available.
It is optimal to get a fresh, local, sustainable, healthy diet...but let's not go overboard. Even health needs to be taken in moderation.
Exactly. A food is not evil merely because it's been processed. I for one think agriculture is a great idea, but the industrialization of agriculture is on the whole unhealthy and unsustainable. We try to eat fresh foods with as little processing as possible (even corn that has been shucked has, by definition, been processed). We buy from a farmers' market and freeze for winter, rather than buying frozen or canned fruits and vegetables. But we still buy breads and cheeses, yogurt and olives, saurkraut and pickles. All these foods have been processed, yet all of them are fairly healthy. Like you say, everything in moderation.

I'm pretty sure that the admonition against "Processed foods" does not included shucking corn. I think the rule to keep in mind is to ask how far removed from nature is it? Shucking corn..not very far , Cup Cakes, artificial sweeteners and Kool Whip..are.

The more reasonable question to ask is how much meat should I eat or any meat at all? Should it be more naturally raised or not? Should I drink Milk and if so can I get unrefined Milk and Cheese and what's the difference? Should I limit my food to Meat, Eggs vegetables, raw dairy, fruit nuts berries etc, or is pie and ice cream okay too?

Can I eat sugar or transfats? Are saturated fats really bad for me? What about cholesterol counts, should I care about mine?

Those are the real questions.

As to fermented foods like sauerkraut, you will find that these are often part of Traditional Diets. Fermented foods can be thought of as "super raw" in that the process increases the various beneficial enzymes in the food even over what is there in the raw state. Kefir ( fermented Milk) is popular among people following a more Traditional ( Weston Price type) diet  
So you're admitting that agriculture and processing of foods is not necessarily a bad thing?

I am saying that it contributed to the great expansion of civilization. More calories from a relatively small area. The ability to stay put and not roam following herds obviously built society.

What I am saying is that only 10,000 years of agriculture is not enough time for human adaptation to those foods. They are not the most healthful for us. They provide calories and bulk but are not very nutrient dense and contain what the Paleo Diet folks call "Anti-Nutrients".
They've got you hook, line, and sinker--but I'm sorry, those were invented after 8,000 B.C.

Quote
If you avoid highly refined foods and stick to something close to a Hunter Gatherer diet you will avoid many of the modern ailments. It is especially important to get clear on the role of fats in our diet and avoid like the plague vegetable oils,  and transfats (artificial fat made from vegetable oils) and reject the low fat diet advice that is currently in vogue.  
I reject all diet advice, most of all advice from people trying to sell diet books like the one you keep pushing.

Quote
If you dont want to go back 10,000 years,  just go back 60 and eat like grandmother. No highly refined foods, lots of meat full fat, raw whole milk and cheese, vegitables and fruit. Liver once per week.....etc.
That's the first sensible thing you've said on this thread.
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« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2009, 08:33:16 PM »

I'm pretty sure, that if learning the basic essentials to breadmaking kept man alive for thousands of years, it would serve to say that bread is good. there are many cases where meat could not travel, due to obvious spoilage, yet bread, pemmican, and other dried sundries were the essentials when neither fresh meat or vegetables were not available.
It is optimal to get a fresh, local, sustainable, healthy diet...but let's not go overboard. Even health needs to be taken in moderation.
Exactly. A food is not evil merely because it's been processed. I for one think agriculture is a great idea, but the industrialization of agriculture is on the whole unhealthy and unsustainable. We try to eat fresh foods with as little processing as possible (even corn that has been shucked has, by definition, been processed). We buy from a farmers' market and freeze for winter, rather than buying frozen or canned fruits and vegetables. But we still buy breads and cheeses, yogurt and olives, saurkraut and pickles. All these foods have been processed, yet all of them are fairly healthy. Like you say, everything in moderation.

I'm pretty sure that the admonition against "Processed foods" does not included shucking corn. I think the rule to keep in mind is to ask how far removed from nature is it? Shucking corn..not very far , Cup Cakes, artificial sweeteners and Kool Whip..are.

The more reasonable question to ask is how much meat should I eat or any meat at all? Should it be more naturally raised or not? Should I drink Milk and if so can I get unrefined Milk and Cheese and what's the difference? Should I limit my food to Meat, Eggs vegetables, raw dairy, fruit nuts berries etc, or is pie and ice cream okay too?

Can I eat sugar or transfats? Are saturated fats really bad for me? What about cholesterol counts, should I care about mine?

Those are the real questions.

As to fermented foods like sauerkraut, you will find that these are often part of Traditional Diets. Fermented foods can be thought of as "super raw" in that the process increases the various beneficial enzymes in the food even over what is there in the raw state. Kefir ( fermented Milk) is popular among people following a more Traditional ( Weston Price type) diet  
So you're admitting that agriculture and processing of foods is not necessarily a bad thing?

I am saying that it contributed to the great expansion of civilization. More calories from a relatively small area. The ability to stay put and not roam following herds obviously built society.

What I am saying is that only 10,000 years of agriculture is not enough time for human adaptation to those foods. They are not the most healthful for us. They provide calories and bulk but are not very nutrient dense and contain what the Paleo Diet folks call "Anti-Nutrients".
They've got you hook, line, and sinker--but I'm sorry, those were invented after 8,000 B.C.

Quote
If you avoid highly refined foods and stick to something close to a Hunter Gatherer diet you will avoid many of the modern ailments. It is especially important to get clear on the role of fats in our diet and avoid like the plague vegetable oils,  and transfats (artificial fat made from vegetable oils) and reject the low fat diet advice that is currently in vogue.  
I reject all diet advice, most of all advice from people trying to sell diet books like the one you keep pushing.

Quote
If you dont want to go back 10,000 years, just go back 60 and eat like grandmother. No highly refined foods, lots of meat full fat, raw whole milk and cheese, vegetables and fruit. Liver once per week.....etc.
That's the first sensible thing you've said on this thread.

The Weston Price Foundation has very little to sell you. They survive hand to mouth, mostly on dues from chapter members and speaking fees. What I said at the end of my post that you agree with is totally consistent with what I said before that. Traditonal diets are best.

There is no hidden agenda here. These folks have suffered in their professional careers for bucking the Big Pharma, Big Agra Biz dogmas. You should listen to them. They are hero's.
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« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2009, 08:46:30 PM »

yah - I checked out the Weston-Price website...it sounds alot like a corporation to me. They have shareholders et al. I don't like big corporations. Even the "good" kind, because they are formed with one idea in the beginning and end up with one thing in common, money and the bottom line.
If I support the eating of good healthy food, I won't go overboard, I will support my local farmers, ranchers and dairys. And I won't risk the health of my children on spoiled fruit juices and dairy products. If I want fresh, I either milk it myself or juice it and drink it right away, otherwise I'll buy it pasturized thanks. I'm not overly concerned with my health to the point of where I'm going to spend gobs of time and money trying to make it perfect. Fact is, I like a chaw of tobacco now and then, I like a good dark beer and strong whiskey too! But all in moderation. If I bought choice beef that wasn't grass fed because I didn't feel I could spend the extra bucks, oh well. We do what we can within our means.


I wish everyone had it as lucky as us where we have the choices we do, but honestly I think alot of us our spoiled by it.
I've dug in trash for food before, and I ate good then. I eat better now and I'm not sold on the Paleo-Diet. Besides you have to presuppose life on earth existing for more than 7000 yrs. which I don't. In my opinion, the jury is still out on that one.

Hey, speaking of organ meat, have you tried sweetbreads, or smoked beef tongue?
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« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2009, 08:58:40 PM »

Marc - While I agree with some of the fundamentals, especially those of simplifying our lifestyles and diets to 60-100 yrs. ago, of what you speak, I'm more inclined to doing things without putting my personal stamp of approval on a popular book or corporate entity which I think upholds my beliefs. Let's face it, in both cases, looks are often decieving.

Moderation= Happy, simple, easy, not preachy.

Check out SlowFood if you need to get involved in a local chapter of something which upholds these ideals. They can connect you to the information you seek re: farms, restaurants, ranches, without the Big Money Politics Game.
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« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2009, 09:22:16 PM »

Marc - While I agree with some of the fundamentals, especially those of simplifying our lifestyles and diets to 60-100 yrs. ago, of what you speak, I'm more inclined to doing things without putting my personal stamp of approval on a popular book or corporate entity which I think upholds my beliefs. Let's face it, in both cases, looks are often decieving.

Moderation= Happy, simple, easy, not preachy.
Exactly.

Quote
the Big Money Politics Game.
I love that game! The original Monopoly was great, but what do you do with all the cash you've extorted from your fellow players? Well, now you can invest it in the next big name in politics! Just choose wisely, or you could find your corporate image forever linked to the next Michael Dukakis.
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« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2009, 09:31:39 PM »


Moderation= Happy, simple, easy, not preachy.
Exactly.

Quote
the Big Money Politics Game.
I love that game! The original Monopoly was great, but what do you do with all the cash you've extorted from your fellow players? Well, now you can invest it in the next big name in politics! Just choose wisely, or you could find your corporate image forever linked to the next Michael Dukakis.
or John DeLorean Wink
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« Reply #82 on: December 22, 2009, 10:02:03 PM »


Moderation= Happy, simple, easy, not preachy.
Exactly.

Quote
the Big Money Politics Game.
I love that game! The original Monopoly was great, but what do you do with all the cash you've extorted from your fellow players? Well, now you can invest it in the next big name in politics! Just choose wisely, or you could find your corporate image forever linked to the next Michael Dukakis.
or John DeLorean Wink
I didn't realize he was in politics.
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« Reply #83 on: December 22, 2009, 10:24:14 PM »


Moderation= Happy, simple, easy, not preachy.
Exactly.

Quote
the Big Money Politics Game.
I love that game! The original Monopoly was great, but what do you do with all the cash you've extorted from your fellow players? Well, now you can invest it in the next big name in politics! Just choose wisely, or you could find your corporate image forever linked to the next Michael Dukakis.
or John DeLorean Wink
I didn't realize he was in politics.
Oh, I think we've all recently been observant that you can't have Politics in America without the Automotive Industry - Hence Bailout.
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« Reply #84 on: December 22, 2009, 10:25:47 PM »


Moderation= Happy, simple, easy, not preachy.
Exactly.

Quote
the Big Money Politics Game.
I love that game! The original Monopoly was great, but what do you do with all the cash you've extorted from your fellow players? Well, now you can invest it in the next big name in politics! Just choose wisely, or you could find your corporate image forever linked to the next Michael Dukakis.
or John DeLorean Wink
I didn't realize he was in politics.
Oh, I think we've all recently been observant that you can't have Politics in America without the Automotive Industry - Hence Bailout.
I don't think you quite understood my analogy.
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« Reply #85 on: December 23, 2009, 01:44:26 AM »


Moderation= Happy, simple, easy, not preachy.
Exactly.

Quote
the Big Money Politics Game.
I love that game! The original Monopoly was great, but what do you do with all the cash you've extorted from your fellow players? Well, now you can invest it in the next big name in politics! Just choose wisely, or you could find your corporate image forever linked to the next Michael Dukakis.
or John DeLorean Wink
I didn't realize he was in politics.
Oh, I think we've all recently been observant that you can't have Politics in America without the Automotive Industry - Hence Bailout.
I don't think you quite understood my analogy.
maybe not. sorry.
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« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2009, 10:21:00 AM »

yah - I checked out the Weston-Price website...it sounds alot like a corporation to me. They have shareholders et al. I don't like big corporations. Even the "good" kind, because they are formed with one idea in the beginning and end up with one thing in common, money and the bottom line.
If I support the eating of good healthy food, I won't go overboard, I will support my local farmers, ranchers and dairys. And I won't risk the health of my children on spoiled fruit juices and dairy products. If I want fresh, I either milk it myself or juice it and drink it right away, otherwise I'll buy it pasturized thanks. I'm not overly concerned with my health to the point of where I'm going to spend gobs of time and money trying to make it perfect. Fact is, I like a chaw of tobacco now and then, I like a good dark beer and strong whiskey too! But all in moderation. If I bought choice beef that wasn't grass fed because I didn't feel I could spend the extra bucks, oh well. We do what we can within our means.


I wish everyone had it as lucky as us where we have the choices we do, but honestly I think alot of us our spoiled by it.
I've dug in trash for food before, and I ate good then. I eat better now and I'm not sold on the Paleo-Diet. Besides you have to presuppose life on earth existing for more than 7000 yrs. which I don't. In my opinion, the jury is still out on that one.

Hey, speaking of organ meat, have you tried sweetbreads, or smoked beef tongue?

How very anarchistic of you Smiley

I don't think the proper way to discuss nutritional idea's is to take such cheap shots. The Weston Price Foundation is a humble little organization. To miss represent them like you have is really bizarre and unnecessary. My Church has a board of directors and an IRS incorporation. We collect dues. We own some property. I bet your Church does too.

If you have some disagreement with the idea's of the Weston Price Foundation, then we can without rancour have a discussion and learn from each other. There is no need to go into  attack mode.   
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« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2009, 01:30:29 PM »

If you dont want to go back 10,000 years,  just go back 60 and eat like grandmother. No highly refined foods, lots of meat full fat, raw whole milk and cheese, vegetables and fruit. Liver once per week.....etc.

The diet that your grandmother ate was probably all right for her because people of her time moved around much more than we do today, unless you want to go the gym rat route to stave off gaining weight. Many people today live a desk-jockey life, which doesn't seem to be in line with the high fat content that Grandmother's diet would entail.
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« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2009, 02:19:34 PM »

How very anarchistic of you Smiley

I don't think the proper way to discuss nutritional idea's is to take such cheap shots. The Weston Price Foundation is a humble little organization. To miss represent them like you have is really bizarre and unnecessary. My Church has a board of directors and an IRS incorporation. We collect dues. We own some property. I bet your Church does too.

If you have some disagreement with the idea's of the Weston Price Foundation, then we can without rancour have a discussion and learn from each other. There is no need to go into  attack mode.   
Marc1152 - Somehow, I think our wires got crossed! Undecided
I wasn't taking cheapshots. It is the way I see the world. I trust the Church and do not think of it in the same way as corporations. The Church is required to fill out forms, hold a board meeting, and other functions to operate within the boundaries which the state has set. Without it, it can not function legally. You are correct, our church does own land and quite a bit (nearly 2 acres) with apartments, houses, a greenhouse garden, and a full communal kitchen to feed the homeless. But I don't think of this as a corporation per se, in negative terms. Infact, not all corporations are corrupt and I am not accusing Weston Price of such. I am however automatically distrusting of books and foundations which set themselves in a position which can interfere in the political arena (which in my mind is corrupt). And, maybe you find it "Anarchistic" of me to distrust said types of corporations...I dunno, maybe it's a streak that runs through my veins. I'm not offended by it. I do have some incendiary thoughts about the corrupt state of the world systems. There is sufficient enough evidence to support my claims (to find out those claims, pm me) too, I think.
But - as I said before,
"If I support the eating of good healthy food, I won't go overboard, I will support my local farmers, ranchers and dairys. And I won't risk the health of my children on spoiled fruit juices and dairy products. If I want fresh, I either milk it myself or juice it and drink it right away, otherwise I'll buy it pasturized thanks. I'm not overly concerned with my health to the point of where I'm going to spend gobs of time and money trying to make it perfect."
I think there is enough common ground to go on having a meaningful discussion. However you seem bent on a pulpit monologue as a spokesperson for Weston Price and if disagreeing with you makes me your antagonist, than that is a healthy debate.
Myrrh just raised an interesting point. What say you? 

   
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« Reply #89 on: December 23, 2009, 02:50:26 PM »

If you don't want to go back 10,000 years,  just go back 60 and eat like grandmother. No highly refined foods, lots of meat full fat, raw whole milk and cheese, vegetables and fruit. Liver once per week.....etc.

The diet that your grandmother ate was probably all right for her because people of her time moved around much more than we do today, unless you want to go the gym rat route to stave off gaining weight. Many people today live a desk-jockey life, which doesn't seem to be in line with the high fat content that Grandmother's diet would entail.

There is a dilemma with understanding the role of fats. The problem is that when people ate saturated fats the incidence of Heart Disease was very low. Once saturated fats were demonized and there was a change to vegetable oils, and low fat eating, Heat Disease rates sored. Therefore, in order not to consider the change to low fat as the culprit, alternative explanations like being less active than previous generations are put forward.

There are a couple of problems with this. In the first place Heart Disease seems to effect both the active and inactive in our society. The list of athletes who drop dead from Heart Attacks is pretty long. Remember Jim Fix? As I recall, he was a long distance runner, very thin guy, who died of a massive coronary.  

But the most important evidence is the lack of good science linking ingestion of saturated fats with Heart Disease. There is even less evidence from what I have read that high colesterol causes Heart Disease. In fact, there is some indication that very low cholesterol counts may be linked to some forms of cancer.

Here are a couple links:


 http://www.hhcc.us/cholesterol.htm

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 03:05:52 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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