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stanley123
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« Reply #1395 on: September 22, 2013, 08:54:07 PM »

Ah, high fat diets. Telling people what they want to hear. And resulting in thousands of heart attacks every year. Because as all the reputable doctors say, get really fat!

Considering Atkins died of a heart attack himself, I'm amazed anyone still follows his model.
Actually it was because of an infection which had nothing to do with his diet.

Ask his cardiologist. He had a healthy cardiovascular system even in his 70s.
That's what his cardiologist said, but are the diagnoses by cardiologists always correct?
Dude you can say that about anything.

But what information did the cardiologist not have where he/she made the wrong diagnosis?

No, you cannot say that about anything. Take for example, the Pythagorean theorem. Once the theorem has been diagnosed as proven, it is always correct. It is never false in Euclidean geometry.
In this particular case, the cardiologist said his death was due to an infection. But I thought that cardiologists were experts in diagnosing heart problems, not infections. I heard that there have  been cases when doctors gave incorrect diagnoses when working outside of their field of expertise.

This post shows you don't understand much about either geometry, cardiovascular disease, or American.
  You criticise me for not being knowledgeable in geometry, cardiology and Americanism. However, I don't see what that has to do with my point. There may be a doctor out there who says that the Atkins diet did not cause Dr. Atikins to have heart failure. However, my point is that there are other doctors who say that the Atkins diet can contribute to causing cardiac arrest. :
"Although results are contradictory, some studies have linked these diets to increases in serum triglycerides and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol.[5,6] Elevated levels of free fatty acids may promote both vascular thrombosis and cardiac arrhythmias.[7,8] Plasma lipolysis and infusion of albumin-bound free fatty acids have been associated with the development of serious arrhythmias in dogs, possibly through a detergent effect on mitochondrial and cell membranes.[7] These diets have also been associated with hypothyroidism characterized by a decrease in thyrotropin and a marked decrease in triiodothyronine, as well as alterations in the metabolism of diuretics and cholesterol medications.[9]

More importantly, deaths associated with other specialized diets have been reported. In the 1960s and 1970s, liquid protein diets were associated with several deaths.[10] Some of these deaths were related to QT prolongation with pathologic findings of myocardial atrophy and myocarditis."
Please see:http://www.atkinsexposed.org/atkins/81/Sudden_Cardiac_Death_of_an_Adolescent_During_%5BAtkins%5D_Dieting.htm
Also
"The American Heart Association states: "Individuals who follow these diets are therefore at risk for compromised vitamin and mineral intake, as well as potential cardiac, renal [kidney], bone, and liver abnormalities overall."[254] Low carb diets like the Atkins diet may also hasten the onset of type II diabetes.[519] In short, concluded the September 2004 review in The Lancet,[524] "low-carbohydrate diets cannot be recommended."[525]

In Europe, hospitals have already started banning the Atkins Diet[255-256] after the British government's Medical Research Council, backed up by the British Nutrition Foundation and the British Dietetic Association,[257] condemned the Atkins Diet as "negligent"[258] "nonsense and pseudo-science"[259] posing a "massive health risk."[260]
http://www.atkinsexposed.org/atkins/38/Massive_Health_Risk.htm"
etc.


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stanley123
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« Reply #1396 on: September 22, 2013, 09:03:12 PM »

Once I took a drink of coffee and spat it out cause it was orange juice. But just for a second, it was in fact coffee.

Draw your own conclusions.
I am not sure how your comments contribute to the question of the value of the Atkins diet. and whether or not the diet can cause heart attacks.  But here is a real life example of someone who followed it:
 "...53-year-old businessman Jody Gorran stayed on the Atkins Diet, and continued to recommend it to his friends even though his cholesterol had shot up 50%. Before starting the Atkins Diet, his cholesterol was excellent, he had no history of heart disease, and an unrelated CT scan showed that his coronary arteries were clean.[397]

For Jody Gorran, it took two years on the Atkins Diet before the crushing chest pain started. By then one of his coronary arteries was 99% blocked and his heart function was suffering for it. An immediate cardiac catheterization and stent placement may well have saved his life. In the opinion of his cardiologist, Gorran might well have otherwise had a massive heart attack and died within a short period of time."
Another example:
"When Dr. Atkins' Diet Revolution first came out, a million-dollar class action suit was brought against Atkins and his publisher to recover medical expenses incurred by the diet's side effects.[399] A Brooklyn Assemblyman on Atkins who nearly died after a heart attack sued Atkins and the publisher for publishing the book "without regard to the safety, truth or accuracy of the statements contained in the book."[400] The book Nutrition Cultism cites 3 occasions in which Atkins was sued and the cases were each settled out of court in favor of the plaintiffs.[401]

"The point is," Gorran said in an NBC News interview, "Dr. Atkins lied to the public. He didn't care. For his ego or for corporate greed, that's what this thing's about.""
http://www.atkinsexposed.org/atkins/47/Closing_Off_His_Heart_To_the_Atkins_Diet.htm


 
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Marc1152
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« Reply #1397 on: September 23, 2013, 10:19:36 AM »

Ah, high fat diets. Telling people what they want to hear. And resulting in thousands of heart attacks every year. Because as all the reputable doctors say, get really fat!


Actually the biggest and longest running randomized studies like the Framingham Heart Study found no link what so ever between dietary fat and heart disease. The lead researcher said fear of fat is a "persistent myth"..

The Science that first indicated fat caused heart disease was never very solid. Today we have study after study that overturns this false idea.

For example, the study that got the whole thing started was the "Six Nation  Study" done by the Famous Bio-Chemnist Ansel Keys ( K Rations in WW 2 were named after him..)=

His study showed a direct correlation between high fat consumption in Six Countries and increased heart disease. The graph was almost straight up. The more people that ate a high fat diet, the higher the rate of heat disease.. This study was really central to what is called the "Heart Lipid Theory" of heart disease..

Just one little problem.... He faked the results. Dr. Keys didnt have data on just six countires, he studied 22 countries, and guess what. In some places the population ate lots of fat and had high heart disease but in other places they also ate lots of fat but had low rates of heart disease. In other countries people ate low fat diets but still had high rates of heart disease and in other place the reverse. LOL

So Keys simply threw out the data that didnt fit his agenda and only published the data from the six countries that did..

Recently researchers revisited the same countries and the data reconfirmed that there is absolutely no data correlating high fat consumption and heart disease..of any kind.

Funny stuff

Here is a cute video about it:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4
Here is an abstract from a recent journal article on fats and heart disease:
J Intern Med. 2012 Jul;272(1):13-24. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2796.2012.02553.x.

Dietary fats and coronary heart disease.

Willett WC.


Source

Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115, USA. walter.willett@channing.harvard.edu


Abstract


The relation of dietary fat to risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) has been studied extensively using many approaches, including controlled feeding studies with surrogate end-points such as plasma lipids, limited randomized trials and large cohort studies. All lines of evidence indicate that specific dietary fatty acids play important roles in the cause and the prevention of CHD, but total fat as a percent of energy is unimportant. Trans fatty acids from partially hydrogenated vegetable oils have clear adverse effects and should be eliminated. Modest reductions in CHD rates by further decreases in saturated fat are possible if saturated fat is replaced by a combination of poly- and mono-unsaturated fat, and the benefits of polyunsaturated fat appear strongest. However, little or no benefit is likely if saturated fat is replaced by carbohydrate, but this will in part depend on the form of carbohydrate. Because both N-6 and N-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids are essential and reduce risk of heart disease, the ratio of N-6 to N-3 is not useful and can be misleading. In practice, reducing red meat and dairy products in a food supply and increasing intakes of nuts, fish, soy products and nonhydrogenated vegetable oils will improve the mix of fatty acids and have a markedly beneficial effect on rates of CHD.


You do realize this supports my position.

It's important to understand the different kinds of fat.

Tansfats are artificial fats made out of vegetable oils..They are deadly.. Some of the early studies did not separate out transfat from normal animal fats and lumped them together and got increases in Heart Disease. When you study animal fat and saturated fats from things like coconut and eliminate transfat ( and sugar consumption) people actually get healthier eating fat.

"Red Meat" produced from a factory ( store bought) has more Omega 6 fat because the cattle are fed grain which is not their natural food. Grains are bad for us and they are bad for cattle and then (slightly) bad for us via eating cattle.

Grass fed "Red Meat" has a totally different fat profile. It is rich in Omega 3 fat. The proper balance is around 2 Omega 6 to 1 Omega 3.

But even without adjusting for factory raised Red Meat there was only a very slight improvement in heart health. When you look at the actual numbers "slight" is almost always .000000345 vs .000000445 or some similar nonsense that has no practical meaning in the real world.And that was with factory Red Meat.

All of the big randomized studies that have been going on for decades have not been able to find any link between dietary fat and cholesterol and heart disease. Tens of thousands of participants studied for decades.. No link..None..Not even close. 

Here is a good site that summarizes five or six studies of dietary fat and cholesterol:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cholesterol_myth_2.html#.UkBP0xDNl4o

 After twenty-two years of research, the researchers concluded:

    "There is, in short, no suggestion of any relation between diet and the subsequent development of CHD in the study group." 
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« Reply #1398 on: September 23, 2013, 10:35:52 AM »

Fresh peanut butter on a slice of warm, toasted sprouted grain bread is a pretty good snack.
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William
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« Reply #1399 on: September 23, 2013, 10:47:48 AM »

Dang bro. How much do you weigh? 120?
I'm hovering around 144-ish? Maybe less now I haven't weighed since I went to the doc for my ear.

Chicken breast sounds pretty good, I like cooking it in olive oil and salt the hell out of it.

We pretty much weigh the same then, unless of course you are taller than me which you would have a 85% of being.

I don't go to Papa John's because the owner is an ******* to his own employees and the healthcare thing really magnified it.

But I do love their garlic dipping sauce for the pizza.

But since I'm in Pittsburgh, I got every pizza you could ever want.

John Schnatter has done more for my community than you will ever do for anyone's.

It's a shame his pizza just tastes so bad.
What has he done?

A good chunk of my college money is probably coming from him, for one.
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« Reply #1400 on: September 23, 2013, 11:01:52 AM »

Dang bro. How much do you weigh? 120?
I'm hovering around 144-ish? Maybe less now I haven't weighed since I went to the doc for my ear.

Chicken breast sounds pretty good, I like cooking it in olive oil and salt the hell out of it.

We pretty much weigh the same then, unless of course you are taller than me which you would have a 85% of being.

I don't go to Papa John's because the owner is an ******* to his own employees and the healthcare thing really magnified it.

But I do love their garlic dipping sauce for the pizza.

But since I'm in Pittsburgh, I got every pizza you could ever want.

John Schnatter has done more for my community than you will ever do for anyone's.

It's a shame his pizza just tastes so bad.

As far as the chain delivery restaurants go, they're a lot better.  For those places where it's a pizza wasteland, you can do a lot worse than Papa John's.
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stanley123
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« Reply #1401 on: September 23, 2013, 01:04:05 PM »

Ah, high fat diets. Telling people what they want to hear. And resulting in thousands of heart attacks every year. Because as all the reputable doctors say, get really fat!


Actually the biggest and longest running randomized studies like the Framingham Heart Study found no link what so ever between dietary fat and heart disease. The lead researcher said fear of fat is a "persistent myth"..

The Science that first indicated fat caused heart disease was never very solid. Today we have study after study that overturns this false idea.

For example, the study that got the whole thing started was the "Six Nation  Study" done by the Famous Bio-Chemnist Ansel Keys ( K Rations in WW 2 were named after him..)=

His study showed a direct correlation between high fat consumption in Six Countries and increased heart disease. The graph was almost straight up. The more people that ate a high fat diet, the higher the rate of heat disease.. This study was really central to what is called the "Heart Lipid Theory" of heart disease..

Just one little problem.... He faked the results. Dr. Keys didnt have data on just six countires, he studied 22 countries, and guess what. In some places the population ate lots of fat and had high heart disease but in other places they also ate lots of fat but had low rates of heart disease. In other countries people ate low fat diets but still had high rates of heart disease and in other place the reverse. LOL

So Keys simply threw out the data that didnt fit his agenda and only published the data from the six countries that did..

Recently researchers revisited the same countries and the data reconfirmed that there is absolutely no data correlating high fat consumption and heart disease..of any kind.

Funny stuff

Here is a cute video about it:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4
Here is an abstract from a recent journal article on fats and heart disease:
J Intern Med. 2012 Jul;272(1):13-24. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2796.2012.02553.x.

Dietary fats and coronary heart disease.

Willett WC.


Source

Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115, USA. walter.willett@channing.harvard.edu


Abstract


The relation of dietary fat to risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) has been studied extensively using many approaches, including controlled feeding studies with surrogate end-points such as plasma lipids, limited randomized trials and large cohort studies. All lines of evidence indicate that specific dietary fatty acids play important roles in the cause and the prevention of CHD, but total fat as a percent of energy is unimportant. Trans fatty acids from partially hydrogenated vegetable oils have clear adverse effects and should be eliminated. Modest reductions in CHD rates by further decreases in saturated fat are possible if saturated fat is replaced by a combination of poly- and mono-unsaturated fat, and the benefits of polyunsaturated fat appear strongest. However, little or no benefit is likely if saturated fat is replaced by carbohydrate, but this will in part depend on the form of carbohydrate. Because both N-6 and N-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids are essential and reduce risk of heart disease, the ratio of N-6 to N-3 is not useful and can be misleading. In practice, reducing red meat and dairy products in a food supply and increasing intakes of nuts, fish, soy products and nonhydrogenated vegetable oils will improve the mix of fatty acids and have a markedly beneficial effect on rates of CHD.


You do realize this supports my position.

It's important to understand the different kinds of fat.

Tansfats are artificial fats made out of vegetable oils..They are deadly.. Some of the early studies did not separate out transfat from normal animal fats and lumped them together and got increases in Heart Disease. When you study animal fat and saturated fats from things like coconut and eliminate transfat ( and sugar consumption) people actually get healthier eating fat.

"Red Meat" produced from a factory ( store bought) has more Omega 6 fat because the cattle are fed grain which is not their natural food. Grains are bad for us and they are bad for cattle and then (slightly) bad for us via eating cattle.

Grass fed "Red Meat" has a totally different fat profile. It is rich in Omega 3 fat. The proper balance is around 2 Omega 6 to 1 Omega 3.

But even without adjusting for factory raised Red Meat there was only a very slight improvement in heart health. When you look at the actual numbers "slight" is almost always .000000345 vs .000000445 or some similar nonsense that has no practical meaning in the real world.And that was with factory Red Meat.

All of the big randomized studies that have been going on for decades have not been able to find any link between dietary fat and cholesterol and heart disease. Tens of thousands of participants studied for decades.. No link..None..Not even close. 

Here is a good site that summarizes five or six studies of dietary fat and cholesterol:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cholesterol_myth_2.html#.UkBP0xDNl4o

 After twenty-two years of research, the researchers concluded:

    "There is, in short, no suggestion of any relation between diet and the subsequent development of CHD in the study group." 

I don't think that there is any doubt that there is good fat and bad fat. However, the Atkins diet is controversial.
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« Reply #1402 on: September 23, 2013, 01:07:58 PM »

Ah, high fat diets. Telling people what they want to hear. And resulting in thousands of heart attacks every year. Because as all the reputable doctors say, get really fat!


Actually the biggest and longest running randomized studies like the Framingham Heart Study found no link what so ever between dietary fat and heart disease. The lead researcher said fear of fat is a "persistent myth"..

The Science that first indicated fat caused heart disease was never very solid. Today we have study after study that overturns this false idea.

For example, the study that got the whole thing started was the "Six Nation  Study" done by the Famous Bio-Chemnist Ansel Keys ( K Rations in WW 2 were named after him..)=

His study showed a direct correlation between high fat consumption in Six Countries and increased heart disease. The graph was almost straight up. The more people that ate a high fat diet, the higher the rate of heat disease.. This study was really central to what is called the "Heart Lipid Theory" of heart disease..

Just one little problem.... He faked the results. Dr. Keys didnt have data on just six countires, he studied 22 countries, and guess what. In some places the population ate lots of fat and had high heart disease but in other places they also ate lots of fat but had low rates of heart disease. In other countries people ate low fat diets but still had high rates of heart disease and in other place the reverse. LOL

So Keys simply threw out the data that didnt fit his agenda and only published the data from the six countries that did..

Recently researchers revisited the same countries and the data reconfirmed that there is absolutely no data correlating high fat consumption and heart disease..of any kind.

Funny stuff

Here is a cute video about it:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4
Here is an abstract from a recent journal article on fats and heart disease:
J Intern Med. 2012 Jul;272(1):13-24. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2796.2012.02553.x.

Dietary fats and coronary heart disease.

Willett WC.


Source

Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115, USA. walter.willett@channing.harvard.edu


Abstract


The relation of dietary fat to risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) has been studied extensively using many approaches, including controlled feeding studies with surrogate end-points such as plasma lipids, limited randomized trials and large cohort studies. All lines of evidence indicate that specific dietary fatty acids play important roles in the cause and the prevention of CHD, but total fat as a percent of energy is unimportant. Trans fatty acids from partially hydrogenated vegetable oils have clear adverse effects and should be eliminated. Modest reductions in CHD rates by further decreases in saturated fat are possible if saturated fat is replaced by a combination of poly- and mono-unsaturated fat, and the benefits of polyunsaturated fat appear strongest. However, little or no benefit is likely if saturated fat is replaced by carbohydrate, but this will in part depend on the form of carbohydrate. Because both N-6 and N-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids are essential and reduce risk of heart disease, the ratio of N-6 to N-3 is not useful and can be misleading. In practice, reducing red meat and dairy products in a food supply and increasing intakes of nuts, fish, soy products and nonhydrogenated vegetable oils will improve the mix of fatty acids and have a markedly beneficial effect on rates of CHD.


You do realize this supports my position.

It's important to understand the different kinds of fat.

Tansfats are artificial fats made out of vegetable oils..They are deadly.. Some of the early studies did not separate out transfat from normal animal fats and lumped them together and got increases in Heart Disease. When you study animal fat and saturated fats from things like coconut and eliminate transfat ( and sugar consumption) people actually get healthier eating fat.

"Red Meat" produced from a factory ( store bought) has more Omega 6 fat because the cattle are fed grain which is not their natural food. Grains are bad for us and they are bad for cattle and then (slightly) bad for us via eating cattle.

Grass fed "Red Meat" has a totally different fat profile. It is rich in Omega 3 fat. The proper balance is around 2 Omega 6 to 1 Omega 3.

But even without adjusting for factory raised Red Meat there was only a very slight improvement in heart health. When you look at the actual numbers "slight" is almost always .000000345 vs .000000445 or some similar nonsense that has no practical meaning in the real world.And that was with factory Red Meat.

All of the big randomized studies that have been going on for decades have not been able to find any link between dietary fat and cholesterol and heart disease. Tens of thousands of participants studied for decades.. No link..None..Not even close. 

Here is a good site that summarizes five or six studies of dietary fat and cholesterol:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cholesterol_myth_2.html#.UkBP0xDNl4o

 After twenty-two years of research, the researchers concluded:

    "There is, in short, no suggestion of any relation between diet and the subsequent development of CHD in the study group." 

I don't think that there is any doubt that there is good fat and bad fat. However, the Atkins diet is controversial.

I agree with you that the Atkins diet is controversial.  Much of medical and dietary/nutritional "science" is controversial.  Much of what was previously believed to be true in these areas has subsequently been shown to not be believed to be true.  It could easily be concluded that was is believed to be true to today in these fields will one day be "shown" (that is, believed) to not be true.

Life is controversial. Wink
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Marc1152
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« Reply #1403 on: September 23, 2013, 01:23:17 PM »

Ah, high fat diets. Telling people what they want to hear. And resulting in thousands of heart attacks every year. Because as all the reputable doctors say, get really fat!


Actually the biggest and longest running randomized studies like the Framingham Heart Study found no link what so ever between dietary fat and heart disease. The lead researcher said fear of fat is a "persistent myth"..

The Science that first indicated fat caused heart disease was never very solid. Today we have study after study that overturns this false idea.

For example, the study that got the whole thing started was the "Six Nation  Study" done by the Famous Bio-Chemnist Ansel Keys ( K Rations in WW 2 were named after him..)=

His study showed a direct correlation between high fat consumption in Six Countries and increased heart disease. The graph was almost straight up. The more people that ate a high fat diet, the higher the rate of heat disease.. This study was really central to what is called the "Heart Lipid Theory" of heart disease..

Just one little problem.... He faked the results. Dr. Keys didnt have data on just six countires, he studied 22 countries, and guess what. In some places the population ate lots of fat and had high heart disease but in other places they also ate lots of fat but had low rates of heart disease. In other countries people ate low fat diets but still had high rates of heart disease and in other place the reverse. LOL

So Keys simply threw out the data that didnt fit his agenda and only published the data from the six countries that did..

Recently researchers revisited the same countries and the data reconfirmed that there is absolutely no data correlating high fat consumption and heart disease..of any kind.

Funny stuff

Here is a cute video about it:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4
Here is an abstract from a recent journal article on fats and heart disease:
J Intern Med. 2012 Jul;272(1):13-24. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2796.2012.02553.x.

Dietary fats and coronary heart disease.

Willett WC.


Source

Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115, USA. walter.willett@channing.harvard.edu


Abstract


The relation of dietary fat to risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) has been studied extensively using many approaches, including controlled feeding studies with surrogate end-points such as plasma lipids, limited randomized trials and large cohort studies. All lines of evidence indicate that specific dietary fatty acids play important roles in the cause and the prevention of CHD, but total fat as a percent of energy is unimportant. Trans fatty acids from partially hydrogenated vegetable oils have clear adverse effects and should be eliminated. Modest reductions in CHD rates by further decreases in saturated fat are possible if saturated fat is replaced by a combination of poly- and mono-unsaturated fat, and the benefits of polyunsaturated fat appear strongest. However, little or no benefit is likely if saturated fat is replaced by carbohydrate, but this will in part depend on the form of carbohydrate. Because both N-6 and N-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids are essential and reduce risk of heart disease, the ratio of N-6 to N-3 is not useful and can be misleading. In practice, reducing red meat and dairy products in a food supply and increasing intakes of nuts, fish, soy products and nonhydrogenated vegetable oils will improve the mix of fatty acids and have a markedly beneficial effect on rates of CHD.


You do realize this supports my position.

It's important to understand the different kinds of fat.

Tansfats are artificial fats made out of vegetable oils..They are deadly.. Some of the early studies did not separate out transfat from normal animal fats and lumped them together and got increases in Heart Disease. When you study animal fat and saturated fats from things like coconut and eliminate transfat ( and sugar consumption) people actually get healthier eating fat.

"Red Meat" produced from a factory ( store bought) has more Omega 6 fat because the cattle are fed grain which is not their natural food. Grains are bad for us and they are bad for cattle and then (slightly) bad for us via eating cattle.

Grass fed "Red Meat" has a totally different fat profile. It is rich in Omega 3 fat. The proper balance is around 2 Omega 6 to 1 Omega 3.

But even without adjusting for factory raised Red Meat there was only a very slight improvement in heart health. When you look at the actual numbers "slight" is almost always .000000345 vs .000000445 or some similar nonsense that has no practical meaning in the real world.And that was with factory Red Meat.

All of the big randomized studies that have been going on for decades have not been able to find any link between dietary fat and cholesterol and heart disease. Tens of thousands of participants studied for decades.. No link..None..Not even close.  

Here is a good site that summarizes five or six studies of dietary fat and cholesterol:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cholesterol_myth_2.html#.UkBP0xDNl4o

 After twenty-two years of research, the researchers concluded:

    "There is, in short, no suggestion of any relation between diet and the subsequent development of CHD in the study group."  

I don't think that there is any doubt that there is good fat and bad fat. However, the Atkins diet is controversial.

I am not talking about the Atkins Diet specifically . It does come under the general heading of Low Carb Diets of course. I am more interested in the Low Carb High Fat Diet, Paleo Diets and Weston Price Traditional Diets.. All have some variation between them..

Personally the two types I follow the closest are found here:

Dr. Andraes Eenfeldt. Low Carb High Fat ( LCHF)

www.dietdoctor.com  

and Nora Gedgaudas

"Primal Body-Primal Mind. Beyond the Plaeo Diet"

http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/

« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 01:24:30 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #1404 on: September 23, 2013, 02:24:00 PM »

Ah, high fat diets. Telling people what they want to hear. And resulting in thousands of heart attacks every year. Because as all the reputable doctors say, get really fat!


Actually the biggest and longest running randomized studies like the Framingham Heart Study found no link what so ever between dietary fat and heart disease. The lead researcher said fear of fat is a "persistent myth"..

The Science that first indicated fat caused heart disease was never very solid. Today we have study after study that overturns this false idea.

For example, the study that got the whole thing started was the "Six Nation  Study" done by the Famous Bio-Chemnist Ansel Keys ( K Rations in WW 2 were named after him..)=

His study showed a direct correlation between high fat consumption in Six Countries and increased heart disease. The graph was almost straight up. The more people that ate a high fat diet, the higher the rate of heat disease.. This study was really central to what is called the "Heart Lipid Theory" of heart disease..

Just one little problem.... He faked the results. Dr. Keys didnt have data on just six countires, he studied 22 countries, and guess what. In some places the population ate lots of fat and had high heart disease but in other places they also ate lots of fat but had low rates of heart disease. In other countries people ate low fat diets but still had high rates of heart disease and in other place the reverse. LOL

So Keys simply threw out the data that didnt fit his agenda and only published the data from the six countries that did..

Recently researchers revisited the same countries and the data reconfirmed that there is absolutely no data correlating high fat consumption and heart disease..of any kind.

Funny stuff

Here is a cute video about it:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4
Here is an abstract from a recent journal article on fats and heart disease:
J Intern Med. 2012 Jul;272(1):13-24. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2796.2012.02553.x.

Dietary fats and coronary heart disease.

Willett WC.


Source

Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115, USA. walter.willett@channing.harvard.edu


Abstract


The relation of dietary fat to risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) has been studied extensively using many approaches, including controlled feeding studies with surrogate end-points such as plasma lipids, limited randomized trials and large cohort studies. All lines of evidence indicate that specific dietary fatty acids play important roles in the cause and the prevention of CHD, but total fat as a percent of energy is unimportant. Trans fatty acids from partially hydrogenated vegetable oils have clear adverse effects and should be eliminated. Modest reductions in CHD rates by further decreases in saturated fat are possible if saturated fat is replaced by a combination of poly- and mono-unsaturated fat, and the benefits of polyunsaturated fat appear strongest. However, little or no benefit is likely if saturated fat is replaced by carbohydrate, but this will in part depend on the form of carbohydrate. Because both N-6 and N-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids are essential and reduce risk of heart disease, the ratio of N-6 to N-3 is not useful and can be misleading. In practice, reducing red meat and dairy products in a food supply and increasing intakes of nuts, fish, soy products and nonhydrogenated vegetable oils will improve the mix of fatty acids and have a markedly beneficial effect on rates of CHD.


You do realize this supports my position.

It's important to understand the different kinds of fat.

Tansfats are artificial fats made out of vegetable oils..They are deadly.. Some of the early studies did not separate out transfat from normal animal fats and lumped them together and got increases in Heart Disease. When you study animal fat and saturated fats from things like coconut and eliminate transfat ( and sugar consumption) people actually get healthier eating fat.

"Red Meat" produced from a factory ( store bought) has more Omega 6 fat because the cattle are fed grain which is not their natural food. Grains are bad for us and they are bad for cattle and then (slightly) bad for us via eating cattle.

Grass fed "Red Meat" has a totally different fat profile. It is rich in Omega 3 fat. The proper balance is around 2 Omega 6 to 1 Omega 3.

But even without adjusting for factory raised Red Meat there was only a very slight improvement in heart health. When you look at the actual numbers "slight" is almost always .000000345 vs .000000445 or some similar nonsense that has no practical meaning in the real world.And that was with factory Red Meat.

All of the big randomized studies that have been going on for decades have not been able to find any link between dietary fat and cholesterol and heart disease. Tens of thousands of participants studied for decades.. No link..None..Not even close.  

Here is a good site that summarizes five or six studies of dietary fat and cholesterol:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cholesterol_myth_2.html#.UkBP0xDNl4o

 After twenty-two years of research, the researchers concluded:

    "There is, in short, no suggestion of any relation between diet and the subsequent development of CHD in the study group."  

I don't think that there is any doubt that there is good fat and bad fat. However, the Atkins diet is controversial.

I am not talking about the Atkins Diet specifically . It does come under the general heading of Low Carb Diets of course. I am more interested in the Low Carb High Fat Diet, Paleo Diets and Weston Price Traditional Diets.. All have some variation between them..

Personally the two types I follow the closest are found here:

Dr. Andraes Eenfeldt. Low Carb High Fat ( LCHF)

www.dietdoctor.com  

and Nora Gedgaudas

"Primal Body-Primal Mind. Beyond the Plaeo Diet"

http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/


This is something that I need to look into. Thanks for the information and the links. I have been shopping at a health food store in this area. They sell grass fed beef liver (frozen), which is delicious when cooked right.
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« Reply #1405 on: September 23, 2013, 02:56:24 PM »

Ah, high fat diets. Telling people what they want to hear. And resulting in thousands of heart attacks every year. Because as all the reputable doctors say, get really fat!


Actually the biggest and longest running randomized studies like the Framingham Heart Study found no link what so ever between dietary fat and heart disease. The lead researcher said fear of fat is a "persistent myth"..

The Science that first indicated fat caused heart disease was never very solid. Today we have study after study that overturns this false idea.

For example, the study that got the whole thing started was the "Six Nation  Study" done by the Famous Bio-Chemnist Ansel Keys ( K Rations in WW 2 were named after him..)=

His study showed a direct correlation between high fat consumption in Six Countries and increased heart disease. The graph was almost straight up. The more people that ate a high fat diet, the higher the rate of heat disease.. This study was really central to what is called the "Heart Lipid Theory" of heart disease..

Just one little problem.... He faked the results. Dr. Keys didnt have data on just six countires, he studied 22 countries, and guess what. In some places the population ate lots of fat and had high heart disease but in other places they also ate lots of fat but had low rates of heart disease. In other countries people ate low fat diets but still had high rates of heart disease and in other place the reverse. LOL

So Keys simply threw out the data that didnt fit his agenda and only published the data from the six countries that did..

Recently researchers revisited the same countries and the data reconfirmed that there is absolutely no data correlating high fat consumption and heart disease..of any kind.

Funny stuff

Here is a cute video about it:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4
Here is an abstract from a recent journal article on fats and heart disease:
J Intern Med. 2012 Jul;272(1):13-24. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2796.2012.02553.x.

Dietary fats and coronary heart disease.

Willett WC.


Source

Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115, USA. walter.willett@channing.harvard.edu


Abstract


The relation of dietary fat to risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) has been studied extensively using many approaches, including controlled feeding studies with surrogate end-points such as plasma lipids, limited randomized trials and large cohort studies. All lines of evidence indicate that specific dietary fatty acids play important roles in the cause and the prevention of CHD, but total fat as a percent of energy is unimportant. Trans fatty acids from partially hydrogenated vegetable oils have clear adverse effects and should be eliminated. Modest reductions in CHD rates by further decreases in saturated fat are possible if saturated fat is replaced by a combination of poly- and mono-unsaturated fat, and the benefits of polyunsaturated fat appear strongest. However, little or no benefit is likely if saturated fat is replaced by carbohydrate, but this will in part depend on the form of carbohydrate. Because both N-6 and N-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids are essential and reduce risk of heart disease, the ratio of N-6 to N-3 is not useful and can be misleading. In practice, reducing red meat and dairy products in a food supply and increasing intakes of nuts, fish, soy products and nonhydrogenated vegetable oils will improve the mix of fatty acids and have a markedly beneficial effect on rates of CHD.


You do realize this supports my position.

It's important to understand the different kinds of fat.

Tansfats are artificial fats made out of vegetable oils..They are deadly.. Some of the early studies did not separate out transfat from normal animal fats and lumped them together and got increases in Heart Disease. When you study animal fat and saturated fats from things like coconut and eliminate transfat ( and sugar consumption) people actually get healthier eating fat.

"Red Meat" produced from a factory ( store bought) has more Omega 6 fat because the cattle are fed grain which is not their natural food. Grains are bad for us and they are bad for cattle and then (slightly) bad for us via eating cattle.

Grass fed "Red Meat" has a totally different fat profile. It is rich in Omega 3 fat. The proper balance is around 2 Omega 6 to 1 Omega 3.

But even without adjusting for factory raised Red Meat there was only a very slight improvement in heart health. When you look at the actual numbers "slight" is almost always .000000345 vs .000000445 or some similar nonsense that has no practical meaning in the real world.And that was with factory Red Meat.

All of the big randomized studies that have been going on for decades have not been able to find any link between dietary fat and cholesterol and heart disease. Tens of thousands of participants studied for decades.. No link..None..Not even close.  

Here is a good site that summarizes five or six studies of dietary fat and cholesterol:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cholesterol_myth_2.html#.UkBP0xDNl4o

 After twenty-two years of research, the researchers concluded:

    "There is, in short, no suggestion of any relation between diet and the subsequent development of CHD in the study group."  

I don't think that there is any doubt that there is good fat and bad fat. However, the Atkins diet is controversial.

I am not talking about the Atkins Diet specifically . It does come under the general heading of Low Carb Diets of course. I am more interested in the Low Carb High Fat Diet, Paleo Diets and Weston Price Traditional Diets.. All have some variation between them..

Personally the two types I follow the closest are found here:

Dr. Andraes Eenfeldt. Low Carb High Fat ( LCHF)

www.dietdoctor.com  

and Nora Gedgaudas

"Primal Body-Primal Mind. Beyond the Plaeo Diet"

http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/


This is something that I need to look into. Thanks for the information and the links. I have been shopping at a health food store in this area. They sell grass fed beef liver (frozen), which is delicious when cooked right.

Excellent.. We have gotten the idea that only muscle is "Meat".. We should be eating way more organ meats as they have far more bang for the buck.
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« Reply #1406 on: October 04, 2013, 09:17:24 AM »

Pork liver, when cooked well, is delicious.  Beef liver, OTOH, is awful no matter how many times I've tried it.  Tripe in a well-seasoned soup is always tasty.
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« Reply #1407 on: November 06, 2013, 04:38:17 PM »

Ah man ginger root is really nice.

Mmm spinach.

Dude, you are a "top shelf" man. Nothing beats the Vita-Mix for the most widely available "blender".

Go direct not from a retailer to save $100 or so.
Even cheaper if you get a reconditioned Vita-Mix (5-year guarantee).
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« Reply #1408 on: November 22, 2013, 12:36:10 AM »



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« Reply #1409 on: November 22, 2013, 12:40:26 AM »

This might be asked already, but


what is your opinion of cheese?
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« Reply #1410 on: November 22, 2013, 10:23:18 AM »

This might be asked already, but


what is your opinion of cheese?

Cheese is wonderful!!  I love it!  All kinds--feta, gruyere, swiss, jarlsberg, parmesan, parmegiano-reggiano, pepper-jack, the list is really almost endless.

Some people claim and experience that it increases mucus secretions.  Personally, it's worth it to me.  Not that I've ever had a particular issue with cheese-induced mucus secretions, though.
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« Reply #1411 on: November 22, 2013, 12:20:45 PM »

This might be asked already, but


what is your opinion of cheese?

If you a are trying to maintain a fat burning metabolism ( Low Carb High Fat Diet) then cheese can be a central, since it contains a good deal of fat.

Even better is cheese made from raw milk from cows that are left to graze exclusively on grass ( no grain feed) . It is packed with enzymes and nutrients  lost if you make the cheese with pasteurized milk.
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« Reply #1412 on: November 22, 2013, 05:57:39 PM »

My brother is on the Paleo Diet and has done very well.  I try to stay away from anything white, fried or processed.  Both of us feel much better and our food choices are much healthier. I purchased a fitbit last year and added exercise - constant every 50 minutes exercise - to the mix, and that has improved my overall strength and well being as well.

The fasts of the church are wonderful - especially with the above food choices.  

Two days a week and during the longer fasts I just cut out the meat and cheese and I'm good to go - not much change to worry about. I stopped drinking cow's milk a while ago, opt for the almond milk, now - unsweetened.  

My triglycerides have lowered by 200 points, my cholesterol has lowered by fifty.  I'm in the healthy range now, for both - and I don't go on those sugar binges any longer. Smiley

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« Reply #1413 on: November 22, 2013, 08:00:00 PM »

John Schnatter has done more for my community than you will ever do for anyone's.
BTW, Johnny lives easily off the work of others and because he has so much capital of course he can do more than I could.

Just want to point that out.
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« Reply #1414 on: November 22, 2013, 10:03:03 PM »

My brother is on the Paleo Diet and has done very well.  I try to stay away from anything white, fried or processed.  Both of us feel much better and our food choices are much healthier. I purchased a fitbit last year and added exercise - constant every 50 minutes exercise - to the mix, and that has improved my overall strength and well being as well.

The fasts of the church are wonderful - especially with the above food choices.  

Two days a week and during the longer fasts I just cut out the meat and cheese and I'm good to go - not much change to worry about. I stopped drinking cow's milk a while ago, opt for the almond milk, now - unsweetened.  

My triglycerides have lowered by 200 points, my cholesterol has lowered by fifty.  I'm in the healthy range now, for both - and I don't go on those sugar binges any longer. Smiley



Yay !!!  There is a facebook group called "Lent and the Paleo diet". Check it out
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« Reply #1415 on: December 17, 2014, 06:04:35 PM »

Wow, im doing something I really dont like doing haha


Marc: It might be buried within the thread somewhere, but

What is the effect of someone that lives and eats Paleo, but then goes for a month or so eating a high carb diet/non paleo diet foods?

Are they more prone to weight gain from eating the same foods than a person used to eating them would be?
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« Reply #1416 on: December 18, 2014, 01:40:33 PM »

Wow, im doing something I really dont like doing haha


Marc: It might be buried within the thread somewhere, but

What is the effect of someone that lives and eats Paleo, but then goes for a month or so eating a high carb diet/non paleo diet foods?

Are they more prone to weight gain from eating the same foods than a person used to eating them would be?

It depends on what you are calling Paleo. If you are interpreting "Paleo" as the proper combination of Macro Nutrients ( fat, protein, carbs) that we have been evolutionarily adapted to eat, then you will be eating the right balance and an optimal diet for humans...

So, it would then depend on which and how much and the quality of a Macro Nutrient you are over eating when you go off the wagon.

For example, if you start eating lots and lots of carbs, and on top of that they are highly refined ( soda, pie... Christmas cookies), then yes indeed, you will go into hormonal dis-regulation and gain weight.

If you are now eating lots and lots of protein and on top of that from factory raised meat rather than grass fed, you will find that the extra protein is being metabolized as sugar and you will once again go into hormonal dis regulation and gain weight ( but not nearly as badly as with the carbs).

If you are now eating lots more fat............That would be fine. No negative effect except if you are eating more fat in combination with eating too many carbs. 

The rule is whole foods, minimally processed and avoid grains which are too new to the human diet.

The natural ratio for people should look something like this: 30% of calories from healthy carbs (  starches like sweet potato, white potato, vegetables)... 15% of calorie intake from protein and all the rest (55%) from natural fat ( no seed oil or  vegetable oils or trans fat.. Just good natural animal fats, fatty cuts of meat and fatty fish, butter, lard, tallow, olive oil and coconut oil etc. 

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/
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« Reply #1417 on: December 20, 2014, 05:05:19 PM »

I would like to discuss nutrition and diet and learn how people here eat.

I have a particular interest in Low Carb and Traditional Diets. I have come to believe that  the standard "Healthy" Western Diet based on low fat, avoidance of meat and fear of high cholesterol levels has ruined our health and is the real cause of obesity, heart disease and other modern ailments like diabetes. I have taken to eating a diet as recommended by the Weston Price foundation and in such books as The Paleo Diet.

Dr. Price did his work in the early 20th century. He was a Dentist who traveled the world and studied how primitive peoples ate. He discovered that people eating a Traditional Diet were far healthier than "Modern People" in terms of being cancer free, diabetes free, with good strong physical constitutions and straight teeth. He learned that even after just one generation of eating a Western type diet that the children of these people lost those health advantages.
 
You can read more at   www.westonaprice.org

"The Paleo Diet" by Dr.Loren Cordain is based on the theory that people ate a certain type of "Human Diet" for 2.5 million years. This diet mainly consits of meat, eggs, fruit, nuts and vegetables. Agriculture then introduced a mere 10,000 years ago an unnatural diet of grains, beans and potatoes which are all fairly toxic until cooked.

Here is a really cute youtube that explains the Paleo Diet:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M



During a recent company meeting I noticed one of the younger male colleagues looking quite painfully thin with that papery skin one sees on corpses and drug addicts nearing the end.  He was always a normal healthy weight for an office guy.

After the meeting I asked him if he'd lost weight and he said he and his wife are doing the Paleo diet.  

Some of the staples of my diet: hard tack (whole rye) or cooked cereal with cinnamon and molasses, homemade kefir mixed with pomegranate juice, sardines, occasional shellfish on fast days, goat cheese, occasional jarlsburg, seasonal local fruit, a banana a day on weekdays, one cup of coffee a day, herbal tea, and today MARMALADE with elderflower extract on hard tack due to Mor's thread.  

I don't have time, energy, money to prepare elaborate meals, so I keep it simple and functional.   I don't like to spend a lot of time thinking about food either.

Kefir helps balance gut flora, which scientists are saying increases serotonin in the brain, which in turn affects mood and brain function.  Even some paleo advocates recommend it.

Carbs also affect serotonin, so some people can get very depressed by not eating a balanced diet.  One person I know who doesn't eat carbs is fashionably thin, but has to take Prozac.

Hard tack (rye) has a low glycemic index and is usually the whole grain, not refined.

I ate a small bit of beef (prime rib maybe) a year ago at the company Christmas party, and it was disgustingly fatty.  I still feel mildly nauseous thinking about it.   Feedlot finished beef is horrible, and everything else cost way too much.  

My health is very good now, better than it has been for years, glory to God, once I got away from the doctors and their recommendations (US medicine=pills).
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« Reply #1418 on: December 20, 2014, 05:15:28 PM »

Some of the staples of my diet: hard tack (whole rye) or cooked cereal with cinnamon and molasses, homemade kefir mixed with pomegranate juice, sardines, occasional shellfish on fast days, goat cheese, occasional jarlsburg, seasonal local fruit, a banana a day on weekdays, one cup of coffee a day, herbal tea, and today MARMALADE with elderflower extract on hard tack due to Mor's thread.  

You're welcome!  Smiley
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« Reply #1419 on: December 20, 2014, 05:23:22 PM »

^ Cheesy
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« Reply #1420 on: Yesterday at 03:25:19 AM »

I ate a bit of prime rib a couple years ago at a restaurant.  It was disappointing because it was cold.  The au jus and horseradish sauce were spot on though.
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« Reply #1421 on: Yesterday at 02:13:08 PM »

https://www.drmcdougall.com/

Hmm..... Smiley
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« Reply #1422 on: Today at 02:51:38 PM »

Paleo diet simply means it's best to eat what we are adapted to from eons of evolution.. It took about 164,000 years during the Upper Paleolithic period for a mutation to become universal in the population. Today, with a much larger population it will take about 200,000 years.

Sometimes evolution happens slowly and then other times quickly. Dairy for example has only been around for about 5,000 years in the human diet but around 80% of the population is adapted to it now.

McDougal points out that we are well adapted to starches but then goes crazy and vilifies everything else we are well adapted to and he thinks we should eat mostly starch...

The diet that is the best for humans may look like this: 30% of calories from healthy starches ( tubers like potatoes) 15% from protein and 55% from fats.

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/
  
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« Reply #1423 on: Today at 04:12:31 PM »


I'd like to see how strict Paleo proponents feel after 1 year without supplements, vitamins, fiber powders or protein powders while they follow the no-grain/no-legume/no-dairy diet.

Debunking the paleo diet: Christina Warinner at TEDxOU
http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/Debunking-the-Paleo-Diet-Christ
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« Reply #1424 on: Today at 04:30:55 PM »


I'd like to see how strict Paleo proponents feel after 1 year without supplements, vitamins, fiber powders or protein powders while they follow the no-grain/no-legume/no-dairy diet.

Debunking the paleo diet: Christina Warinner at TEDxOU
http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/Debunking-the-Paleo-Diet-Christ

There is no one Paleo Diet... First comes the anthropology and then the nutrition recommendations, which can vary. But the over arching template is sound. And then you have to ask, compared to what?

Do people who eat whole foods, minimally processed in the right proportions based on clinical evidence need more supplementation than people who eat a Standard American Diet? I think not.

And then you have to define what you mean by "Supplement" . Is cod liver oil a supplement or is it a food. I say it's a nourishing food. Many traditional cultures have used one version or another of fermented fish oil with the understanding that it promotes good health and a robust immune system.

For example Indians if the Northwest US and Canada used ooligan grease made from small smelt like fish in the same manner as cod liver oil. It's perfectly natural for people to use this sort of thing.
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