Author Topic: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)  (Read 6574 times)

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Offline GregoryLA

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Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« on: December 15, 2009, 06:15:08 AM »
I hope I'm posting this in the right place.  If not, I'm sorry and feel free to move it.

I heard somewhere on this forum that some time around the 6th century the Georgian Orthodox Church was for a period of about 100 years OO and then became EO.  Does anybody know the circumstances surrounding this- such as why the switch and how it was actually accomplished?  I've looked a little on the internet and couldn't find anything.

Thanks!

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 01:52:48 PM »
The Georgian Church was related to the Armenian, and rejected Chalcedon. It was established by Syrian anti-Chalcedonian monks who are still venerated by the Georgian Church.

The main reason for the Georgian Church becoming Chalcedonian was that it sought freedom from the jurisdiction of the Armenian Church and therefore turned for help to the Byzantine Empire, which was happy to support its independence in return for an acceptance of Chalcedon.

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Offline Salpy

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 08:03:32 PM »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 08:18:18 PM »
Georgia received autocephaly from Antioch at the latest 474.  There is a thread on an Armenia Chronicle that mentions the event:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20212.0.html

The traditional date of it being consolidated is 486.  She waivered on Chalcedon, as did Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. Rome didn't, to the point of rejecting at first the Fifth Ecumenical Council (the origin, btw, of the Patriarchate of Venice).

Georgia was evangelized by Armenia, which in turn was evangelized by Caesarea (Greec-Roman) and Antioch (Syriac).  This is on top of the activities of SS. Andrew, Bartholomew, Thaddeus etc.  That they were under Antioch (at least initially) is why their primates bear the title of Catholicos (as does the Nestorian one).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 08:21:11 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 09:24:09 PM »
Actually, Bishop Ukhtanes' history, which I reviewed here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16969.0.html

indicates that at the time of the split (early 600's) there was a sort of dependent relationship between the Armenians and the Georgians, to the extent that the Catholicos of the Georgians used to be ordained by the Catholicos of the Armenians. (page 41)  I have no idea how that dependent relationship came to be, or how long things had been that way.   

Bishop Ukhtanes' book is of value, because he basically just gathered together and organized the actual correspondence which was written by the parties at the time.  One interesting thing is that the Catholicos of the Georgians, Kyrion, never explicitly states why he is breaking away.  The thing that started the whole business was Kyrion's ordination of a Nestorian bishop, an ethnic Khujik, named Kis.  (page 42.)  When confronted by the Armenians about this, Kyrion at first skirts the issue, but then finally writes a letter confessing the "four councils" of the Greeks (not five, surprisingly) and says "I shall pass through Armenia only if I have to, on my way across; otherwise I have no business to be there." (page 101.)  Ouch.

Bishop Ukhtanes guesses at why Kyrion would do this, and relates an oral tradition which until that time had not been written down.  He tells a story of when the Armenian Catholicos invited Kyrion and another Catholicos to dine with him.  The Armenian Catholicos served the two men with his own hands, but served the other Catholicos first, because he was elderly.  Kyrion was insulted by this and became angry over this, saying he should have been served first, since he had more bishops than the other, elderly, Catholicos.  The Armenian Catholicos tried explaining to Kyrion that it was proper to serve the oldest first, but Kyrion remained angry and left the table.  (page 120) 

Who knows if that story was true.  Bishop Ukhtanes himself was not really sure about what really motivated Kyrion.   A desire to be independent of the Armenians was undoubtedly at least part of the reason, as Fr. Peter said.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2010, 11:01:56 AM »
I don't know about the ecclesiastical relationship between Georgia and Armenia, but there was a political link, in some respect. The Bagratid dynasty of the Georgian royal house originated in Armenia. The Kingdom of Georgia, in medieval times, encompassed parts of Armenia as well, when the base of Armenian power had its concentration in Cilicia. Regarding Chalcedon, the situation had been rather fluid in Georgia for awhile. A closer alliance with the Byzantine Empire helped solidify things. Many Armenian Chalcedonians fled to Georgia over the centuries.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2010, 11:05:26 AM »
Actually we would be more likely to say that the Georgian church was OO for a period of almost 600 years.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2010, 12:21:54 PM »
I do not agree with this notion, from studying what little there is of Georgian historical sources in English from an objective viewpoint.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2010, 01:48:19 PM »
I do not agree with this notion, from studying what little there is of Georgian historical sources in English from an objective viewpoint.

Ummmmm. So you just flat out deny that the Georgian Catholicoses participated in the councils of Dvin which rejected Chalcedon which numerous Armenian sources they say were present at?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 01:48:40 PM by deusveritasest »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 01:55:59 PM »
I would need to do more research before I could "flat out deny" what one side says. Anyway, there are two separate questions involved--whether the catholicos attended monophysite councils as a monophysite, and whether it necessarily followed that, because of this, all the members of the Georgian Church were monophysites. As I said earlier, the status of the acceptance of Chalcedon in Georgia was fluid for a time.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2010, 02:03:36 PM »
whether the catholicos attended monophysite councils as a monophysite,

Monophysite? That formula is not the issue here. Anti-Chalcedonianism is.

and whether it necessarily followed that, because of this, all the members of the Georgian Church were monophysites.

Generally speaking, the subjects of a bishop are to be considered of the same faith as him if they follow him without objection.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2010, 02:24:11 PM »
Actually we would be more likely to say that the Georgian church was OO for a period of almost 600 years.
No, it wasn't that long: a century or two after Chalcedon, during which time much was in flux in most of the East (the West having its own, different problems).
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2010, 02:31:33 PM »
Actually we would be more likely to say that the Georgian church was OO for a period of almost 600 years.
No, it wasn't that long: a century or two after Chalcedon, during which time much was in flux in most of the East (the West having its own, different problems).

When before the early 7th century is there evidence of Georgia being Chalcedonian, such that your contradiction of my claim would not simply be a matter of whether the pre-Chalcedonian church was substantially OO or EO in faith?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2010, 02:41:57 PM »
The "evidence" all depends on who is consulted. There in contention over this period regarding who believes what when. One example is the holy King Vakhtang Gorgasali. It is unclear, from a non-partisan point of view, whether he was a supporter of Chalcedon or not, because the Orthodox sources say one thing, and the claims of the anti-Chalcedonian partisans say another.
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Offline Father Peter

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2010, 03:42:22 PM »
The founding monastic saints of the Georgian Church were all Syrian non-Chalcedonians, and the great Georgian saint Peter the Iberian was a non-Chalcedonian.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2010, 03:49:40 PM »
The Syrian Fathers, while important, are not the founding saints of the Georgian Orthodox Church. They were preceded by Sts. Nino, Mirian, and others who evangelized the country well prior to Chalcedon, building on the work of the Apostle Andrew.

Anyway, it would appear there is contention over whether or not the Syrian Fathers were anti-Chalcedonian. It depends on who you ask, as I said before. Peter the Iberian is not venerated by the Georgians, but the Syrian Fathers are. Things are not black and white in this case. They appear, more often that not, to point to fluidity.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2010, 03:59:03 PM »
The "evidence" all depends on who is consulted. There in contention over this period regarding who believes what when. One example is the holy King Vakhtang Gorgasali. It is unclear, from a non-partisan point of view, whether he was a supporter of Chalcedon or not, because the Orthodox sources say one thing, and the claims of the anti-Chalcedonian partisans say another.

Such things are much more easily debated. Councils, there participants, and the decisions of those councils are not so easily debated, since they usually have minutes recording such things. There are councils in the 6th century of the Caucasian churches (Armenian, "Iberian" [Georgian], and "Albanian") where they collectively decided against the Council of Chalcedon with the participation of the Georgian Catholicoses. Such a matter is far less disputable than the religious affiliation of a civic leader.

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2010, 04:44:21 PM »
There are Georgian lives of St Peter the Iberian, and I have seen manuscripts with icons of him, so he certainly WAS venerated.

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2010, 05:04:55 PM »
I'm not denying that Peter the Iberian was venerated by certain Georgians at one time. He is not now, however, while the Syrian Fathers and others of that era are. To me, this points to Georgia having been for awhile not wholly in a particular camp, but that ecclesiastical conciliar allegiance was fluid, just as it was for a long time in the Byzantine Empire during the Christological controversies.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2010, 08:27:40 PM »
Many Armenian Chalcedonians fled to Georgia over the centuries.

Do you have any sources on that?

Offline Salpy

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2010, 08:30:13 PM »
Actually we would be more likely to say that the Georgian church was OO for a period of almost 600 years.

Georgia converted to Christianity in the early 300's and left the Church in the early 600's, when they adopted Chalcedon.  So I think it could be said they were OO for about 300 years.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2010, 08:33:52 PM »
I would need to do more research before I could "flat out deny" what one side says. Anyway, there are two separate questions involved--whether the catholicos attended monophysite councils as a monophysite, and whether it necessarily followed that, because of this, all the members of the Georgian Church were monophysites. As I said earlier, the status of the acceptance of Chalcedon in Georgia was fluid for a time.

As far as I know, no Georgian catholicoi ever attended any Monophysite councils.  I'm not aware of the Monophysite heresy ever reaching the Caucasus.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2010, 08:50:25 PM »
The "evidence" all depends on who is consulted. There in contention over this period regarding who believes what when. One example is the holy King Vakhtang Gorgasali. It is unclear, from a non-partisan point of view, whether he was a supporter of Chalcedon or not, because the Orthodox sources say one thing, and the claims of the anti-Chalcedonian partisans say another.

We know from contemporary sources that in the early 500's the Georgians joined with the Armenians at the Council of Dvin in condemning Chalcedon.  We also know from contemporary sources that as of the early 600's they were still OO, until their catholicos Kyrion ordained a Nestorian bishop, broke off relations with the Armenians, and accepted the "four councils" (not five) of the Greeks.    

From what little I know of King Vakhtang (mid 400's to early 500's,) no one knows for sure if he was Chalcedonian or OO, but he did marry the daughter of Emperor Zeno, who downplayed Chalcedon in his Henotikon.  Since he made his alliance with the Empire during the time of the Henotikon, he probably was not a staunch Chalcedonian.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 09:09:09 PM by Salpy »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2010, 09:06:09 PM »
I'm not denying that Peter the Iberian was venerated by certain Georgians at one time. He is not now, however, while the Syrian Fathers and others of that era are. To me, this points to Georgia having been for awhile not wholly in a particular camp, but that ecclesiastical conciliar allegiance was fluid, just as it was for a long time in the Byzantine Empire during the Christological controversies.

Are you sure about Peter the Iberian?  I know Wikipedia is not the most scholarly source in the world, but according to this article, he is still commemorated by the Georgians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Iberian

I've looked, and I can't find anything saying he is no longer commemorated.


The Georgians also commemorate St. Evagrius Ponticus, who was condemned at the EO's fifth council.  I'm not sure when the Georgians came to accept Constantinople II, but they kept Evagrius as a saint, yet another vestige from their OO days.

http://www.kalvesmaki.com/evagpont/


Does anyone have a link to an actual Georgian list of saints?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2010, 10:05:04 PM »
Actually we would be more likely to say that the Georgian church was OO for a period of almost 600 years.

Georgia converted to Christianity in the early 300's and left the Church in the early 600's, when they adopted Chalcedon.  So I think it could be said they were OO for about 300 years.

*facepalm*

Yes. For some reason I was thinking of the Apostolic age as the beginning of that timeline.  :-\

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2010, 10:07:07 PM »
I would need to do more research before I could "flat out deny" what one side says. Anyway, there are two separate questions involved--whether the catholicos attended monophysite councils as a monophysite, and whether it necessarily followed that, because of this, all the members of the Georgian Church were monophysites. As I said earlier, the status of the acceptance of Chalcedon in Georgia was fluid for a time.

As far as I know, no Georgian catholicoi ever attended any Monophysite councils.  I'm not aware of the Monophysite heresy ever reaching the Caucasus.

I don't know that he/she was meaning Eutychianism by that.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2010, 10:09:55 PM »
I'm giving him/her the benefit of the doubt.   :)

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2010, 10:18:15 PM »
The "evidence" all depends on who is consulted. There in contention over this period regarding who believes what when. One example is the holy King Vakhtang Gorgasali. It is unclear, from a non-partisan point of view, whether he was a supporter of Chalcedon or not, because the Orthodox sources say one thing, and the claims of the anti-Chalcedonian partisans say another.

We know from contemporary sources that in the early 500's the Georgians joined with the Armenians at the Council of Dvin in condemning Chalcedon.  We also know from contemporary sources that as of the early 600's they were still OO, until their catholicos Kyrion ordained a Nestorian bishop, broke off relations with the Armenians, and accepted the "four councils" (not five) of the Greeks.

That seems like pretty sufficient evidence to me.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2010, 12:40:31 AM »
Georgian Orthodox icon of St. Peter the Iberian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Peter_the_iberian.jpg





Offline GregoryLA

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2010, 03:13:19 AM »
I'm not denying that Peter the Iberian was venerated by certain Georgians at one time. He is not now, however, while the Syrian Fathers and others of that era are. To me, this points to Georgia having been for awhile not wholly in a particular camp, but that ecclesiastical conciliar allegiance was fluid, just as it was for a long time in the Byzantine Empire during the Christological controversies.

Are you sure about Peter the Iberian?  I know Wikipedia is not the most scholarly source in the world, but according to this article, he is still commemorated by the Georgians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Iberian

I've looked, and I can't find anything saying he is no longer commemorated.


The Georgians also commemorate St. Evagrius Ponticus, who was condemned at the EO's fifth council.  I'm not sure when the Georgians came to accept Constantinople II, but they kept Evagrius as a saint, yet another vestige from their OO days.

http://www.kalvesmaki.com/evagpont/


Does anyone have a link to an actual Georgian list of saints?

According to Orthodoxwiki.org St. Evagrius was never condemned as a person. It was only his teachings.

Offline ativan

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2017, 09:48:35 PM »
I understand that this is an old thread but I want to dispel some misconceptions about OO-y in Georgia and stated in this thread and elsewhere. For the starters to answer GregoryLA's question first Georgian Church (GOC shortly) was never OO Church. It is true that heresy of monophysitism occupied some place in the life of our Church but the Church of kingdom of Iberia itself was not OO ever. I understand that even within Georgian historians there is diversity of theories about this issue (some claiming that it was OO at one point) but there's no documentation within Byzantine or Roman sources. Mostly this claims by historians are based on indirect reasoning. Georgian sources on the other hand clearly state that the country was always Orthodox (in nowadays' terms EO). Even foreign sources (like Byzantine and Roman) claim that Georgia was always strong defender or Orthodox faith.

I've read articles by metropolitan Anania of Manglisi region, Ivane Javkhshvili (one of the most respected and erudite historian of Georgia who knew several languages including Armenian and had studied literally huge number of sources) and Korneli Kekelidze (most anti-Georgian historian in a sense) on this issue. By the end of 5th century during the reign of saintly king Vakhtang Gorgasali GOC was very strong and independent of outside influences. In the beginning of 6th century after king Vakhtan's death Georgian Kingdom brakes down and Georgia falls under the rule of Byzantium (western part known as Lazika) and Persia who rules over eastern part, or Iberia. It is during this period when Persia tries to enforce heresies over GOC. First Persia tried to convert Iberia to Zoroastrianism (and such attempts from Persian side was known in the 5th century as well before King Vakhtang became the King of Iberia at the age of 15). This is met by a lot of resistance and uprising from georgian's part. So they changed their approach and instead they now tried to convert Georgia to OO-y as a political means  against Byzantium (which was mostly EO) and thus further strengthen its rule and broaden its rule over large territory. Well, it is during this time when Persia openly supported Armenian church (AAC) since AAC was one of the strongest supporters of OO-y. AAC received significant power from Persians. Persians during this time even allowed AAC to consecrate Georgian Katholicos'. But the country was still fighting against OO-y. This is even clear in Armenian source called “book of epistles”.  I will later post some of the excerpts from Armenian sources supporting my statements (which actually is not mine at all but our historians). By the end of 6th century (and even earlier in 570s) EO-y wins in Iberia which is also apparent from these sources.  Metropolitan Anania rightly notices in his monograph on history of GOC that if Iberia was OO country this change of faith would not occur in a such painless manner.

Of course OO heresy (from EO standpoint) had permeated the life of GOC as elsewhere in Christendom but this does not mean Iberia ever was OO. Even in Byzantium there were a lot of OO followers within both ecclesiastical and state hierarchs but we don't say Byzantium was OO. Why should then one state that Iberia was OO. Even more, the fact that by the end of 6th century Iberia's Church came out as a winner in this fight and upholder of EO while the country was under strong rule of Persia (who supported AAC and OO and tried to strengthen OO by all means) means a lot and says a lot about our faith.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2017, 10:05:51 PM »
Even in Byzantium there were a lot of OO followers within both ecclesiastical and state hierarchs but we don't say Byzantium was OO. Why should then one state that Iberia was OO.

The term "OO" is anachronistic but Constantinople and Georgia were both certainly anti-Chalcedonian during the period of the Henotikon.

BTW, would you be able to tell us if Peter the Iberian can be found on the Georgian Orthodox Calendar?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 10:06:02 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline ativan

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2017, 10:44:47 PM »
The Georgian Church was related to the Armenian, and rejected Chalcedon. It was established by Syrian anti-Chalcedonian monks who are still venerated by the Georgian Church.
GOC never rejected Chalcedon.

12 Assyrian fathers were never anti-Chalcedonians. This thing is more of a recent development. While st Peter The Iberian was accused to be miaphysite is not a new thing this teaching about Assyrian fathers is new and started in only 20th century. One of the first who claimed this was Georgian historian Korneli Kekelidze and he was totally wrong. First of all he argued this only indirectly without any fact and against existent facts. He argued that since monophysites were persecuted that time in Syria they fled from Syria to find a place where they could be comfortable. But these are the facts: 1) There's no Armenian or other foreign source known that says anything on these saints. The only sources we have are Georgian. These sources are from X-XI centuries. These sources clearly state that great Assyrian fathers came into Georgia by the revelation of God to go to country of Iberia and bring the people back to Orthodox faith. These sources state that great Assyrian fathers were "purifiers of faith" from heresy. In the X-XI century kingdom of Georgia was clearly EO and OO was considered heresy not the other way round. Even great saint George the Hagiorite from mount Athos said that they came to Iberia to cleanse the faith from the tares that Armenians sow in our faith. So, Georgian sources are clear on this issue - these saints were EO saints and they have been venerated as such; 2) The weakening of OO influence in Iberia starts this time when the saints came in Georgia. This is the time where monasticism started to flourish in the country and when they gained a lot of followers. Many monasteries and churches were built during this time. If (and we now this is the case) these saints were venerated this much and they gained so many followers then their arrival in Iberia would have coincided with strengthening of OO and not the other way round.

In any case, 12 Assyrian fathers and great saints of Georgia have always been venerated by Georgians as EO not as OO.

As far as st Peter the Iberian goes same is the case. He was venerated as EO saint of Georgia, and this is known, probably from X to XIII century. For example, same st George the Hagiorite mentions him as saintly father, upholder of the Orthodox faith. He even claims that st Gregory the dialogist had met him and had heard from him about his saintly life. There's also old Georgian manuscript (dated at most from XIV century) on st Peter's life. He is described here as Orthodox monk and not as miaphysite. I know that there's also OO edition (and even older one than Georgian vitae) of his life but this does not change anything. Main point here is that Georgian's venerated him as Orthodox saint and not as OO. This situation is not uncommon with regards of other saints. For example, saint Cyril of Alexandria is venerated by Copts (or OOs in general). They even claim that he was miaphysite. Then what? Does this change anything? Do we EO deny him as EO saint on this ground? Later, in XVIII he was removed from diptychs as a saint. This was done during the time of Katholicos Anton I, who was one of the worst Patriarchs of Georgia (one time even converted to catholicism and tried to convert whole country to it). He did it with the motive to avoid spread of monophysitism (or miaphysitism) by Armenians. The thing is that Armenians that time tried to bring miaphysitism in Georgia again and they were using st Peter's case as a supporting statement, as if he was OO. After that he saintly status was re-instated and later it got lost due to misfortune of time – he was just forgotten as was the case with other saints. In 2010 there was an attempt by the Synod of GOC to commemorate him as a saint again. But, some of the secular pseudo-theologians harshly criticized and came against this move and it never happened.

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2017, 10:51:23 PM »
Even in Byzantium there were a lot of OO followers within both ecclesiastical and state hierarchs but we don't say Byzantium was OO. Why should then one state that Iberia was OO.

The term "OO" is anachronistic but Constantinople and Georgia were both certainly anti-Chalcedonian during the period of the Henotikon.

BTW, would you be able to tell us if Peter the Iberian can be found on the Georgian Orthodox Calendar?
Maybe you are wright about both being anti-Chalcedonian for some time but the point is we don't say Church of Constantinople being OO. This somehow is claimed when discussing GOC. Some here even claim Georgia was OO for 600 years - what an absurd statement.

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2017, 11:13:13 PM »
I don't know about the ecclesiastical relationship between Georgia and Armenia, but there was a political link, in some respect. The Bagratid dynasty of the Georgian royal house originated in Armenia.
With all due respect but I would disagree. I could agree if we say there's divergence of opinions and some claim Bagratids originated in Armenia. Why should we only look at Armenian sources or their claims? Why not Georgian sources? After all Georgian Bagrationis themselves never considered to be of Armenian origin or originated in Armenia. They considered themselves as Georgians and descendants of biblical King David. They might have been related to Armenian Bagratuni family but not necessarily originated from Armenian Bagratunis. Their coat of arms are very different. Georgian Bagrationi's coat of arms depicts David's and Solomon's  attributes on it (harp, sling, pair of scales and Seamless Robe of Christ).

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2017, 12:24:17 AM »
The Georgians also commemorate St. Evagrius Ponticus, who was condemned at the EO's fifth council.  I'm not sure when the Georgians came to accept Constantinople II, but they kept Evagrius as a saint, yet another vestige from their OO days.
GOC does not commemorate Evagrius and there's no data he ever was. Besides, he was condemned at that council not as monophysite heretic. He was condemned because (or supposedly because) of his teaching of pre-existence of souls and apocatstasis. Makes big difference.

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2017, 02:47:53 AM »
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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2017, 04:51:28 PM »
I'm so glad that I found some of the books of Metropolitan Anania's (of Manglisi) translated in English. Here's the list of his books for those who can read Georgian. But below is English translation of his

A concise history of holy apostolic Church of Georgia

You can read the chapters on the events of VI and VII century. Also, some of the books elsewhere have parts of them translated in English and if I find them of interest to this topic I will post them for you.

I've read some of the parts of his books and I love them because he gives us pretty balanced view of the history and does not hide facts but at the same time delves deeply into Georgian, Armenian and Byzantine sources.

He has a very nice and thick volume on the relations of Georgian and Armenian Churches but I don't know if this is translated in English. In fact that link on concise exposition of GOC is just short exposition of the large volume. If I find it in English I will post it here.

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2017, 05:49:06 PM »
Even in Byzantium there were a lot of OO followers within both ecclesiastical and state hierarchs but we don't say Byzantium was OO. Why should then one state that Iberia was OO.

The term "OO" is anachronistic but Constantinople and Georgia were both certainly anti-Chalcedonian during the period of the Henotikon.

BTW, would you be able to tell us if Peter the Iberian can be found on the Georgian Orthodox Calendar?
Maybe you are wright about both being anti-Chalcedonian for some time but the point is we don't say Church of Constantinople being OO. This somehow is claimed when discussing GOC. Some here even claim Georgia was OO for 600 years - what an absurd statement.

As I said, "OO" is an anachronism. EO and OO did not exist as neatly separate communions at the time. The Church of Georgia did reject Chalcedon for a while, together with the Armenians, though not for 600 years.

Where is Peter the Iberian commemorated on the Georgian Orthodox calendar? I find it hard to believe that an EO church would canonize him.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 06:14:39 PM by Iconodule »
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But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2017, 05:59:02 PM »


The term "OO" is anachronistic but Constantinople and Georgia were both certainly anti-Chalcedonian during the period of the Henotikon.


I received a lot of disagreement with that on another thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,64758.new.html#new

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2017, 06:18:00 PM »
One main Georgian source on the division of Georgian and Armenian church is a polemical essay by a Georgian saint of IX century st Arsen I (the great) Katholicos of Georgia.  This essay is titled "gankopisatvis qartlisa da somkhetisa" (or "on the division of Kartli and Armenia"). This writing gives us very interesting insight into this problem. This document was well studied by a Georgian historian Zaza Aleksidze. Metropolitan Anania has a new Georgian version of it on his website. The saint Arsen the great starts his treatise this way: "I have described precisely and without any doubt the severance of Armenians from Georgians in this book". The wording in Georgian clearly states that it was Armenia (not Georgia) who separated off from common faith. He narrates that Armenians held Byzantine faith strongly even to the end of 5th century. For example, when in the middle of 5th century Persian king Peroz I tried to forcefully convert Armenians into nestorianism Armenians refused to comply saying "We love our faith more than our country and even more than ourselves and our faith". Then Persians tried several times same thing and they conducted whole series of political changes to effect this. Finally in the time of Nerses II (Katholicos of Armenia) Persians succeded. This Nerses II turned out to be one of the corrupted Katholikos'. During his time first council of  Dvin was convened in 551. This is very interesting that he calls this first council and not the second one since in 506 there was no denouncement of Chalcedon but acceptance of Henotikon of Zeno. On this second Council Georgians were not present (at least, based on st Arsen's treatise). The Armenian clerics during this time were given so much power (in return of changing their faith) that Armenian lords and statements did not participate much in the politics of their country which by that time was part of Persia. They even collected taxes from population. Later it is mentioned that Greeks found out about this and asked Armenians to join in the discussion of Orthodox faith. Armenian prelates went to Greece several times and several time accepted Orthodoxy but returning back to Armenia they would quickly revert to new faith.

St Arsen mentions several times when Armenians abandoned the faith that was delivered to them by st Gregory the illuminator by his podvigs and continuous weeping.

Later in his V chapter he writes this: "Katholicos Kirion of Mtkheta (of Georgia) and Abaz Katholikos of Hereti saw that Armenia again became faithful of Dvin's council that was brought together by Abdisho the Assyrian and that severed Armenian Church from Holy Catholic Church. This council separated Armenian church from the four patriarchal seas, thus breaking the will of st Gregory the illuminator that stated Aremnian church should have never distance herself from consecrating her bishops in Cesarea*. (* metropolitan Anania notices here that this rule and will broke after Persian king ordered them to consecrate their bishops in Armenia). When Kirion Katholikos, Abaz Katholicos of Hereti and Gregory bishop of Syunik saw this practice in use again there started big dispute between Georgian and Armenians. Georgians would say st Gregory gave us the faith from Greece which you have abandoned and you have broke his holy will and had subdued yourselves to evil heretics. After Georgians pointed this out to Armenians they (or Armenians) have reported to Persian king that Georgians had Greek faith. The same dispute happened during the time of Nerses II and Abraham* (* this seems to be Abraham I who was Katholikos during 607-615 based on what follows). During this time (or during Abraham) Kirion Katholikos of Kartli expelled bishop Moses of Tsurtavi from his eparchy. Thus conflict has grown between them. Abraham called to all clerics of the province of Ararat and told them: either anathematize the council of Chalcedon or leave our dwelling place. Some of them obeyed him and they denounced holy council. Some of them disobeyed  him and they were expelled from there."

Now, from st Arsen's document it is clearly stated that "The same dispute happened during the time of Nerses II" - this is the time of Dvin's council of 551. So, during this time Georgians disputed against Armenia on the faith issue. This means that even this Georgians did not abandon the Chalcedon.

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2017, 06:29:41 PM »
Even in Byzantium there were a lot of OO followers within both ecclesiastical and state hierarchs but we don't say Byzantium was OO. Why should then one state that Iberia was OO.

The term "OO" is anachronistic but Constantinople and Georgia were both certainly anti-Chalcedonian during the period of the Henotikon.

BTW, would you be able to tell us if Peter the Iberian can be found on the Georgian Orthodox Calendar?
Maybe you are wright about both being anti-Chalcedonian for some time but the point is we don't say Church of Constantinople being OO. This somehow is claimed when discussing GOC. Some here even claim Georgia was OO for 600 years - what an absurd statement.

As I said, "OO" is an anachronism. EO and OO did not exist as neatly separate communions at the time. The Church of Georgia did reject Chalcedon for a while, together with the Armenians, though not for 600 years.
I don't mind what you say and to tell you the truth I don't care what you want to call it. I just want to underline distinction and use different terms. I even agree with your statement in a sense. In fact in st Arsen's treatise he says after Armenians were forsed they with sadness accepted (or chose to accept as best alternative for them) jacobite faith - he does not say monophysitism or miaphysitism.

If moderators want me to use any particular term I'll be more than glad to do that. And they can change EO and OO to whatever they feel is appropriate.


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Where is Peter the Iberian commemorated on the Georgian Orthodox calendar? I find it hard to believe that an EO church would canonize him.
I think I've pointed out clearly above that he is not commemorated today but he was in the XI through XII century and short time after that. I will post some more interesting stuff on this later.

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2017, 06:46:09 PM »
Do you consider Fr Georges Florovsky to be a pseudo-historian/theologian? Because in his history he makes it clear that Peter the Iberian played a pivotal role in the anti-Chalcedonian movement. In fact he was one of the bishops who consecrated Timothy Ailourios.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Antonis

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2017, 08:55:30 PM »
Do you consider Fr Georges Florovsky to be a pseudo-historian/theologian? Because in his history he makes it clear that Peter the Iberian played a pivotal role in the anti-Chalcedonian movement. In fact he was one of the bishops who consecrated Timothy Ailourios.
Does disagreement or different understanding on one particular of Florovsky's history necessitate thinking Florovsky a pseudo-historian or theologian? I don't have a bone to pick in this, but that just seems a little extreme.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 08:55:43 PM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Re: Georgian Orthodox Church (Oriental to Eastern)
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2017, 09:05:50 PM »
I was referring to Ativan's post above where he characterizes as "pseudo-theologians" those who said that Peter the Iberian was an anti-Chalcedonian. Apparently the Georgian bishops found their arguments persuasive.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles