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Author Topic: The Holy Virgin Appears in Egypt  (Read 16671 times) Average Rating: 0
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EkhristosAnesti
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« on: December 14, 2009, 10:45:04 PM »

The Holy Virgin has been appearing at St Mary's Orthodox church in Al-Warraq, Cairo, attracting thousands and thousands of Christians and Muslims. An arabic (secular/Muslim) news piece on the event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQCqxAdENos

Glory be to God.
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 11:23:46 PM »

I don't accept any of these Apparition ,especially if they resemble the fatima ,or lourds questionable ones..
And if it starts spewing doctrine ,all the more to flee from it...

Hope the holy Orthodox Coptic Church examines it throughly,
and doesn't jump the Gun by recognizing it as a miracle right away.....
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2009, 11:34:46 PM »

I'm always skeptical of these apparations by nature. How is one able to test these visions to determine whether they are from God?
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 12:13:24 AM »

I can't quite believe it's the Virgin-I'm skeptical too. I see a huge amount of people, two commentators speaking excitedly in a language I can't understand, and some bright lights on top of the church's dome. The middle one appears larger than the surrounding two, but I can't really believe it's necessarily the Virgin.
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 01:31:37 AM »

I don't accept any of these Apparition ,especially if they resemble the fatima ,or lourds questionable ones..
And if it starts spewing doctrine ,all the more to flee from it...

Hope the holy Orthodox Coptic Church examines it throughly,
and doesn't jump the Gun by recognizing it as a miracle right away.....

Actually it resembles Zeiton.
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 03:21:20 AM »

Where's your faith, you guys?

Actually, it makes sense that the Holy Mother of God would visit the Coptic people of Egypt right now.  They have recently been the victims of some very intense violence at the hands of the Muslims over there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XudADfFuWFs

It would be just like our Holy Mother to come to her people to comfort them at this time. 

Have a little faith.
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 03:34:26 AM »

As always, the Bishops have the final and official word on such matters. I am not aware of what proceedings, if any, are being undertaken at this stage by ecclesial authorities to investigate this particular case. It's still very recent news.

I personally find no reason to be skeptical about the idea of the Holy Virgin appearing on the domes of her church during the blessed Nativity Fast, especially at this time. Her appearance as such has been confirmed by the Church in the past (e.g. her appearance at Zeitoun).

The video footage, coming as it does from a camera phone, isn't the best of quality, but it is clear enough in my opinion--and in the opinion of the commentators, who btw are not Christian, and who do in fact briefly note and proceed to reply to some obvious typical objections to the footage. The display at 4:50-4:54 shows that the illumined figure is, contrary to the illumined crosses, not attached to the church's structure. As is clearer to the eye witnesses, the light of the illumined figure differs remarkably from the dull yellow light of the crosses--it is a mixture of a bright blue and white light (the blue light presumably corresponding to her blue attire); eye-witnesses have furthermore noted that it does not retain a fixed position.
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 03:36:05 AM »

I do not deny that these apparitions can and most likely do occur. I just can't be sure about the source or identity of such, which is why I reserve judgment.
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 07:13:58 AM »

An arabic (secular/Muslim) news piece on the event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQCqxAdENos

In the video, what are the crowds chanting between 4:45 and 5:05?
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 07:28:56 AM »

Where's your faith, you guys?.....Have a little faith.

What makes you think they lack faith?
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 07:30:08 AM »

I don't accept any of these Apparition ,especially if they resemble the fatima ,or lourds questionable ones..
And if it starts spewing doctrine ,all the more to flee from it...

Hope the holy Orthodox Coptic Church examines it throughly,
and doesn't jump the Gun by recognizing it as a miracle right away.....

Actually it resembles Zeiton.

Which resembles either lourds or Fatima  image  apparition.....
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 07:35:18 AM »

I don't accept any of these Apparition ,especially if they resemble the fatima ,or lourds questionable ones..
And if it starts spewing doctrine ,all the more to flee from it...

Hope the holy Orthodox Coptic Church examines it throughly,
and doesn't jump the Gun by recognizing it as a miracle right away.....

Actually it resembles Zeiton.

Which resembles either lourds or Fatima  image  apparition.....
Not really. The apparitions of Lourdes and Fatima were witnessed only by one or three children and the crowds had to believe them. Whatever is happening here and at Zeitoun is witnessed by thousands and is being photographed and videoed.
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2009, 07:39:31 AM »

I don't accept any of these Apparition ,especially if they resemble the fatima ,or lourds questionable ones..
And if it starts spewing doctrine ,all the more to flee from it...

Hope the holy Orthodox Coptic Church examines it throughly,
and doesn't jump the Gun by recognizing it as a miracle right away.....

Actually it resembles Zeiton.

Which resembles either lourds or Fatima  image  apparition.....
Not really. The apparitions of Lourdes and Fatima were witnessed only by one or three children and the crowds had to believe them. Whatever is happening here and at Zeitoun is witnessed by thousands and is being photographed and videoed.

The pictures iv seen depict the Zeiton image the same look as either lourds or fatima image...
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2009, 07:45:11 AM »

I don't accept any of these Apparition ,especially if they resemble the fatima ,or lourds questionable ones..
And if it starts spewing doctrine ,all the more to flee from it...

Hope the holy Orthodox Coptic Church examines it throughly,
and doesn't jump the Gun by recognizing it as a miracle right away.....

Actually it resembles Zeiton.

Which resembles either lourds or Fatima  image  apparition.....
Not really. The apparitions of Lourdes and Fatima were witnessed only by one or three children and the crowds had to believe them. Whatever is happening here and at Zeitoun is witnessed by thousands and is being photographed and videoed.

The pictures iv seen depict the Zeiton image the same look as either lourds or fatima image...
I see what you mean now. Thanks for explaining.
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2009, 12:43:29 PM »

It looks quite similar to the appearance at Zeiton. Glory to God! This is a great consolation for the suffering Coptic people.
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2009, 01:12:25 PM »

An arabic (secular/Muslim) news piece on the event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQCqxAdENos

In the video, what are the crowds chanting between 4:45 and 5:05?

Sorry, but it is too indistinct to make out. It sounds like the songs sung at wedding processions though, not liturgical hymns. The Muslim commentator doesn't comment on that (not that he would know) but instead plays up that the vision is not stationary like the Crosses also in view, but plainly moving.
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2009, 08:07:03 PM »

I don't accept any of these Apparition ,especially if they resemble the fatima ,or lourds questionable ones..
And if it starts spewing doctrine ,all the more to flee from it...

Hope the holy Orthodox Coptic Church examines it throughly,
and doesn't jump the Gun by recognizing it as a miracle right away.....

Actually it resembles Zeiton.


Which resembles either lourds or Fatima  image  apparition.....
Not really. The apparitions of Lourdes and Fatima were witnessed only by one or three children and the crowds had to believe them. Whatever is happening here and at Zeitoun is witnessed by thousands and is being photographed and videoed.
Well, the miracle of the sun at Fatima was seen by many many people.
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2009, 09:59:51 PM »

ozgeorge,

Like ialmasry i'm unable to make out what the crowd are chanting.

stashko,

How would you expect the Mother of Light to appear if not as an illumined human figure? As far as I can tell, that is as far as one can stretch a comparison between the artistic depictions of the Lourdes/Fatima apparitions and the Zeitoun/Al-Warraq photographs/videos—they both depict an illumined human figure. Doesn’t seem like a very striking parallel to me. Why does it bother you so much?

Btw, I vaguely recall already discussing (and resolving?) this very issue with you in another thread...

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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2009, 12:17:33 AM »

Two chants I can make out, the first one I'm not so sure, but it sounded like the crowd saying "El Adzra" with someone in the crowd replying  "zaharit leena!" and the second one sounded like "Bos, shoof, el Adzra bi-ti3mil eh!"

"The Virgin...appeared for us!" and "Look, see, [at what] the Virgin is doing."

These are very common Egyptian ways of chanting.
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2009, 05:05:37 AM »

Two chants I can make out, the first one I'm not so sure, but it sounded like the crowd saying "El Adzra" with someone in the crowd replying  "zaharit leena!" and the second one sounded like "Bos, shoof, el Adzra bi-ti3mil eh!"

"The Virgin...appeared for us!" and "Look, see, [at what] the Virgin is doing."

These are very common Egyptian ways of chanting.
Beautiful!
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« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2009, 03:50:36 PM »

Here is another recent video...different from others I have seen thus far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOCQeYECWU0

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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2009, 09:04:47 PM »

It seems there is an official declaration by the Bishop of Giza, His Grace Bishop Domadios, regarding the apparitions with details of the Mother of God's appearance and attributes. The translation done by Google seems very clumsy...can anyone else translate to English please?

http://www.wataninet.com/News.aspx?N=818

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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2009, 09:17:42 PM »

Statement issued by the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Giza December 15, 2009
 
 
 
In the era of His Holiness Pope Shenouda III and ink Bishop Domadius Bishop Giza

Diocese announces that there has been the emergence of Giza and the expression of the Virgin Mary in the church of the urban Burak Mtalranip and at dawn on Friday, 11.12.2009 at one am, the appearance of the Virgin Mary full of her clothes, a Light over the Dome of the Central Church dress is pure white and pulls the middle belt is blue ملوكى The crown on her head and then click the Red Crown of the dome. And crosses the church, only bright lights He saw her all the people of the region as it moves and it shows on the gate between the two minarets.
This remained the emergence of one in the morning until four o'clock on Friday, as monitored by all the cameras and mobiles, and fans flocked to the region and neighboring areas, and pedestrians and a rally in this time of nearly 3 thousand people in the street in front of the church.
And followed this appearance every day after the second century until the morning manifestations of a fly swimming in periods of the night and shining star appears quickly and walking within two hundred meters and disappear amid hymns masses expected to touch the Virgin Mary.
And this large pool of the Church and all the people of Egypt. God helped us all Bchweatha and prayers.
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2009, 09:22:29 PM »

oops Grin
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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2009, 11:07:18 PM »

Here is another recent video...different from others I have seen thus far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOCQeYECWU0

God bless,
Fr. Kyrillos

Something bugs me about this video, and I wonder if anyone else can spot it. It occurs for about a second between 4:31 - 4:32
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« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2009, 11:12:40 PM »

You mean at the end of the video?  I don't see anything.  What do you mean?
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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2009, 11:17:19 PM »

You mean at the end of the video?  I don't see anything.  What do you mean?
I mean at the 4min 31sec point (4:31 on the youtube counter)
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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2009, 11:22:22 PM »

OK, I think I know what you mean.  She suddenly disappears?
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2009, 11:24:37 PM »

OK, I think I know what you mean.  She suddenly disappears?
Yes, but there is an afterglow, not of the whole figure, but in one spot in what looks like a dim tower in the background, similar to the afterglow you get when you turn off a floodlight.
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« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2009, 11:42:39 PM »

Yeah, I saw that.  Personally, I wish there was a better quality video of what was going on, if only because my eyes aren't all that great and it would be easier for me.

Are you suggesting that this whole thing is staged, though?  That it is somehow being put on with a floodlight type of device?  It's possible.  That's why the Church has to look into these things.  The only thing that keeps me from being too skeptical about this is that it is taking place in an environment which is very hostile towards Christianity, and the Coptic Church in particular.  You would think that if it were a hoax and that if there were some sort of floodlight creating this phenomenon, that some of the Muslims who undoubtedly are seeing this would have uncovered it by now.

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« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2009, 11:55:34 PM »

Here is another recent video...different from others I have seen thus far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOCQeYECWU0

God bless,
Fr. Kyrillos

Something bugs me about this video, and I wonder if anyone else can spot it. It occurs for about a second between 4:31 - 4:32
Is it when the appariton like disappears toward the end....


This is strange  http://www.wataninet.com/News.aspx?N=818  when one scrolls the video selections on the player ,it l has a clip on the medugorije apparition as a authentic Apparition...
But the bishop of the area of medugorije denounced  it as false,even the pope hasn't accepted it.......
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« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2009, 11:56:28 PM »

Yeah, I saw that.  Personally, I wish there was a better quality video of what was going on, if only because my eyes aren't all that great and it would be easier for me.

Are you suggesting that this whole thing is staged, though?  That it is somehow being put on with a floodlight type of device?  It's possible.  That's why the Church has to look into these things.  The only thing that keeps me from being too skeptical about this is that it is taking place in an environment which is very hostile towards Christianity, and the Coptic Church in particular.  You would think that if it were a hoax and that if there were some sort of floodlight creating this phenomenon, that some of the Muslims who undoubtedly are seeing this would have uncovered it by now.


Or may be I'm just turning in to a grumpy old man!
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2009, 12:03:16 AM »

I don't think so.   Smiley 
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« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2009, 12:56:14 AM »

I don't know anything about the mechanics and types of floodlights to properly address a suggestion that such has been used. I will note the following, however:

1. Though the incident attracted a substantial Muslim audience, Islamic sentiment remains generally adverse to Christianity in Egypt, and so, as Salpy suggests, Muslims would indeed generally find it in their favour to expose the incident as a hoax. The Egyptian police (who in particular, especially in recent times, have evidenced a hostility to Christians) did in fact attempt to expose the incident as such by having the area's electricity supply shut down; hence the reason why the dome crosses are not on in the last video.

2. As I noted earlier, the illumined figure was observed to undertake an irregular motion pattern (which would seem to suggest that it is not the product of a fixed source) as well as irregular types of illumination (e.g. shape and intensity).

Whether the use of a floodlight can account for the above two points is beyond my ability to assess. Given what has been suggested, noted, and discussed in this thread, I don't see any good reason to read anything into the video beyond the idea that the Holy Virgin's appearance dissolved into a small, soft glow.
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« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2009, 01:31:28 AM »

I'm also not an expert in these matters, but I would think that if it were a hoax, the set up for such a "light show" would be elaborate enough that people would notice it. That would especially be the case in such a public place (the dome of a church) with thousands of people around (some of them hostile,) focusing on the dome.  Even at night, people would have to notice it.  I just don't see how such a thing could be pulled off under those circumstances.

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« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2009, 01:33:04 AM »

Is the Greek Orthodox patriarchate commenting on this matter as well?
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« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2009, 05:14:04 AM »

Is the Greek Orthodox patriarchate commenting on this matter as well?

No, I don't think he would.  The light appeared on a Coptic Church, so naturally, it's only the Coptic church's business.
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2009, 05:19:44 AM »

Couldn't it be an angel of light, just the same? I see no distinguishing characteristics that would lead me to think it was the virgin...
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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2009, 07:05:21 AM »

It is highly unlikely its a hoax.

However, the "angel of light" is an interesting consideration ...

My thinking/reasoning is that the Theotokos is too humble to appear in such an elaborate means. One would presume that any miracle would be gentle and quiet - reflecting humility and much like her own life and dedication to her Son and Lord ...

My two cents worth ...
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2009, 08:57:54 AM »

Is there a particular reason that all these people were gathered here in the first place?
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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2009, 09:08:17 PM »

Is there a particular reason that all these people were gathered here in the first place?

This wasn't just happening for one day, but everyday, and so word got around.

I also heard the city turned off the electricity and the light still kept appearing.
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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2009, 09:47:27 PM »

However, the "angel of light" is an interesting consideration ...

St Paul associates the "Angel of Light" phenomenon with Satan's agenda to mislead people away from true doctrine. Satan doesn't just masquerade as an Angel of Light to put on a show for himself and his minions as a break when they get a little bored of their routine job of trying to destroy souls. The only effect of the Holy Virgin's appearance was that it gave the struggling community of an impoverished district of Cairo a renewed and heightened sense of comfort and hope in the Holy Virgin's maternal care for them--why would Satan want to achieve this?

Quote
My thinking/reasoning is that the Theotokos is too humble to appear in such an elaborate means. One would presume that any miracle would be gentle and quiet - reflecting humility and much like her own life and dedication to her Son and Lord ...

I would suggest you are "over thinking". Why presume that the nature of the Holy Virgin's appearance was a matter of choice, let alone a matter of her own choice? I don't think there's any good basis to make speculations about such matters. One could posit that the nature of her appearance is simply that which best approximates, as best as earthly senses are able to perceive, that of the natural state of her deified, afterlife existence. One could also posit that it was the will of her Son (to which such occurences are subject in the first place) that she be revealed in such glory to confirm the faithful's exalted conception of her as she who is greater than the Cherubim and the Seraphim?
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« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2009, 04:11:54 AM »

With all due respect,

However, the "angel of light" is an interesting consideration ...

St Paul associates the "Angel of Light" phenomenon with Satan's agenda to mislead people away from true doctrine. Satan doesn't just masquerade as an Angel of Light to put on a show for himself and his minions as a break when they get a little bored of their routine job of trying to destroy souls. The only effect of the Holy Virgin's appearance was that it gave the struggling community of an impoverished district of Cairo a renewed and heightened sense of comfort and hope in the Holy Virgin's maternal care for them--why would Satan want to achieve this?

Todays reflection from the Prologue from Ohrid:

"Whoever climbs to the Kingdom of Christ must encounter obstacles, and these obstacles are numerous and varied. Especially dangerous are the evils of the demons. Therefore, every man zealous for the spiritual life must be especially cautious and not accept every shining vision from the other world as a divine revelation. That even the devil is able to appear as an angel of light is shown in the life of the Holy Martyr Juliana. When this holy virgin lay in prison, the devil appeared to her in angelic light, and he counseled her to offer sacrifice to the idols so as to end her tortures. The frightened Juliana asked: ``Who are you?'' The devil replied: ``I am an angel of God! God is greatly concerned about you. Therefore, He sent me with the message that you should submit to the eparch, so that your body will not be destroyed by pain; the Lord is gracious and will forgive you because of the weakness of your wounded body.'' The martyr was horrified at these words. Confused, she fell down in tears in prayer to God, asking Him to reveal who had spoken with her. Then a voice from heaven came to her: ``Be brave, Juliana, I am with you; I give you authority and power over him who came to you, and from him alone will you discover who he is.'' And the devil was bound and forced to acknowledge that he was the same one who had deceived Eve in Paradise, who had told Cain to murder Abel, Herod to slaughter the children of Bethlehem, the Jews to stone Stephen, Nero to crucify Peter upside down and to behead Paul, and so forth. Thus, this holy virgin, girded with the power of God, did not allow herself to be deluded by the evil spirit, but she defeated him by her vigilant and ardent prayers to God."

Quote
Quote
My thinking/reasoning is that the Theotokos is too humble to appear in such an elaborate means. One would presume that any miracle would be gentle and quiet - reflecting humility and much like her own life and dedication to her Son and Lord ...

I would suggest you are "over thinking". Why presume that the nature of the Holy Virgin's appearance was a matter of choice, let alone a matter of her own choice? I don't think there's any good basis to make speculations about such matters. One could posit that the nature of her appearance is simply that which best approximates, as best as earthly senses are able to perceive, that of the natural state of her deified, afterlife existence. One could also posit that it was the will of her Son (to which such occurences are subject in the first place) that she be revealed in such glory to confirm the faithful's exalted conception of her as she who is greater than the Cherubim and the Seraphim?

Again, with all respect ... I am Greek Orthodox and I have not "over thought" the situation. In that title alone you should appreciate (even if you disagree) with why I am inclined to lean towards the fact it was not a vision of the Theotokos. I am not eloquent with speech nor am I learned in every patristic writing under the sun to be able to hold a theological discource on this topic ..it is merely my opinion and I dont mean harm or disrespect. I made my comment in peace-each person is free to do so without the need to engage in debate Smiley or speculate what God's thoughts "might"" be in order to have it fit into a situation ..
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« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2009, 04:36:07 AM »

Todays reflection from the Prologue from Ohrid:

"Whoever climbs to the Kingdom of Christ must encounter obstacles, and these obstacles are numerous and varied. Especially dangerous are the evils of the demons. Therefore, every man zealous for the spiritual life must be especially cautious and not accept every shining vision from the other world as a divine revelation. That even the devil is able to appear as an angel of light is shown in the life of the Holy Martyr Juliana. When this holy virgin lay in prison, the devil appeared to her in angelic light, and he counseled her to offer sacrifice to the idols so as to end her tortures. The frightened Juliana asked: ``Who are you?'' The devil replied: ``I am an angel of God! God is greatly concerned about you. Therefore, He sent me with the message that you should submit to the eparch, so that your body will not be destroyed by pain; the Lord is gracious and will forgive you because of the weakness of your wounded body.'' The martyr was horrified at these words. Confused, she fell down in tears in prayer to God, asking Him to reveal who had spoken with her. Then a voice from heaven came to her: ``Be brave, Juliana, I am with you; I give you authority and power over him who came to you, and from him alone will you discover who he is.'' And the devil was bound and forced to acknowledge that he was the same one who had deceived Eve in Paradise, who had told Cain to murder Abel, Herod to slaughter the children of Bethlehem, the Jews to stone Stephen, Nero to crucify Peter upside down and to behead Paul, and so forth. Thus, this holy virgin, girded with the power of God, did not allow herself to be deluded by the evil spirit, but she defeated him by her vigilant and ardent prayers to God."

In this situation, however, the apparition is not telling anyone to sacrifice to idols, or to do anything else that would be impious.  On the contrary, the apparition is strengthening the faith of a very persecuted Christian minority.  I don't think that is the sort of thing the devil would want.

Quote

Again, with all respect ... I am Greek Orthodox and I have not "over thought" the situation. In that title alone you should appreciate (even if you disagree) with why I am inclined to lean towards the fact it was not a vision of the Theotokos. I am not eloquent with speech nor am I learned in every patristic writing under the sun to be able to hold a theological discource on this topic ..it is merely my opinion and I dont mean harm or disrespect. I made my comment in peace-each person is free to do so without the need to engage in debate Smiley or speculate what God's thoughts "might"" be in order to have it fit into a situation ..

I don't think EA was being critical of you.  He was just countering your opinion of the situation with his own.  That is something we do a lot here.  Your opinion is valued and you are very welcome to continue to post your thoughts.  You just need to know that others who disagree will state their disagreement.  That is the nature of our discussions here.   Smiley 
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« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2009, 04:55:45 AM »

What ever happened to we walk by Faith not by sight.....

Blessed are they that believe and have not seen.......

I'm really skeptical about any of these Apparitions.......




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