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Author Topic: Archbishop Hilarion protects female parishioners in trousers  (Read 14154 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2010, 08:49:04 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
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« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2010, 09:01:08 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.
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« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2010, 09:01:38 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!
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« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2010, 09:02:07 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


 laugh
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« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2010, 09:06:40 PM »

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
"He" is a she, and she has met me, so I hope I haven't given her a horrible mental picture that will haunt her the rest of her days.

Oh!

Riddikulus, I hope I haven't offended your femininity! Embarrassed
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« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2010, 09:08:38 PM »

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
"He" is a she, and she has met me, so I hope I haven't given her a horrible mental picture that will haunt her the rest of her days.

Oh!

Riddikulus, I hope I haven't offended your femininity! Embarrassed

 laugh Not at all!
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« Reply #96 on: January 11, 2010, 09:10:23 PM »


Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt.

Ditto.
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« Reply #97 on: January 11, 2010, 09:12:22 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked
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« Reply #98 on: January 11, 2010, 09:13:24 PM »

A couple of years back I was hosting two female Russian acquaintances in Helsinki. As I got up one morning to go to Uspensky Cathedral, they expressed interest in the Finnish Orthodox Church and felt bad that they had not been to a liturgy in a few years and were losing touch with Orthodoxy. But when I suggested they come along, they said, "Oh, we can't! We didn't pack any skirts." All their lives to that date they had watched babushkas chastise women for trying to enter a church wearing pants. Having been to their hometown regularly, I know this crowd, and the thing is, the priests generally don't mind if women wear pants, but it's the old women at the door who decide who gets to enter and who doesn't.

In the end, I just couldn't convince them that in the Finnish Orthodox Church, you won't see too many women wearing skirts, and there's no pressure on dressing in just the right way. Nonetheless, they were too afraid to come along with me. If rules on clothing are frightening willing Christians from coming to church and rededicating themselves to Christ, then a gentle push to "modesty" has gone too far.

FWIW, in the Romanian Orthodox Church, pants are fine in parish churches, and at monasteries it might be best you wear a skirt, but the monks and nuns are always thrilled to get visitors anyway and you'll always be welcome.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:14:40 PM by CRCulver » Logged
ozgeorge
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« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2010, 09:15:05 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.
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« Reply #100 on: January 11, 2010, 09:15:36 PM »

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
"He" is a she, and she has met me, so I hope I haven't given her a horrible mental picture that will haunt her the rest of her days.

Oh!

Riddikulus, I hope I haven't offended your femininity! Embarrassed

 laugh Not at all!

Good!  Smiley
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« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2010, 09:16:28 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam
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« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2010, 09:16:52 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.

Huh?  Huh
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« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2010, 09:20:36 PM »


If one's thought process is, "I have a right to dress this way, and if a man lusts that's his problem," then I think that's an unChristian attitude. And on the other extreme, if one's thought process is, "I'm going to show everyone how spritiual I am by wearing a 'quasi-burka,'" then I also think that is a prideful and unChristian attitude.

I tend to agree with you. We should take into consideration the sensitivities of our brothers and sisters in Christ and try to cater to what will not inhibit their spiritual experience; as such the first approach fails. And I agree that the second approach can be inclined to pride. Thus, trying to look respectable and modest is the proper middle way.

However, in contrast to your optimism about this, I must point out again that simply doing that sometimes isn't even enough, as there are numerous Pharisees about in the Church who would seek to impose their bigoted senses of what is pious and modest upon others, even when in actuality they are trying to be modest.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2010, 09:22:29 PM »

at monasteries it might be best you wear a skirt
Especially if, like ours, they provide elasticised skirts to wear over pants. I'm sure they are deliberately hideous to make sure women choose their own skirt next time they visit.
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« Reply #105 on: January 11, 2010, 09:23:37 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam

as fitting for their own spiritual journey

edit: I feel I need to emphasis this because you have clearly ignored part of my post in order to accuse me of individualism and not being very Orthodox. Again, you have been Quick Draw McGraw without digesting what I have said. Gebre, I don't know about your spiritual journey, but mine happens within the Church and all that entails.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:37:38 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2010, 09:25:45 PM »

at monasteries it might be best you wear a skirt
Especially if, like ours, they provide elasticised skirts to wear over pants. I'm sure they are deliberately hideous to make sure women choose their own skirt next time they visit.

I remembered your warning and bought a skirt on the way to visit you. Then, we didn't get to visit the monastery! Cry
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Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
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« Reply #107 on: January 11, 2010, 09:29:30 PM »


If one's thought process is, "I have a right to dress this way, and if a man lusts that's his problem," then I think that's an unChristian attitude. And on the other extreme, if one's thought process is, "I'm going to show everyone how spritiual I am by wearing a 'quasi-burka,'" then I also think that is a prideful and unChristian attitude.

I tend to agree with you. We should take into consideration the sensitivities of our brothers and sisters in Christ and try to cater to what will not inhibit their spiritual experience; as such the first approach fails. And I agree that the second approach can be inclined to pride. Thus, trying to look respectable and modest is the proper middle way.

However, in contrast to your optimism about this, I must point out again that simply doing that sometimes isn't even enough, as there are numerous Pharisees about in the Church who would seek to impose their bigoted senses of what is pious and modest upon others, even when in actuality they are trying to be modest.

Agreed. That's why I stated earlier that it will solve many of these problems, but not all. The fundamentalists and Pharisees will never be happy. And they exist in both extremes of licentiousness and conservativism.

Selam
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2010, 11:12:10 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.

Huh?  Huh

I'm guessing that ozgeorge is either referring to my rather uncomely looks, or my rather generous body proportions. Wink
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« Reply #109 on: January 11, 2010, 11:20:32 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.

Huh?  Huh

I'm guessing that ozgeorge is either referring to my rather uncomely looks, or my rather generous body proportions. Wink

Wow, I'm getting homoerotic vibes again!  Shocked
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Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
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Posts: 29,218


« Reply #110 on: January 11, 2010, 11:21:48 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.

Huh?  Huh

I'm guessing that ozgeorge is either referring to my rather uncomely looks, or my rather generous body proportions. Wink

Wow, I'm getting homoerotic vibes again!  Shocked

LOL. Get your mind out of the gutter. I was talking about my fat gut weight issues (about 225 lbs. at 5'9")
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 11:24:57 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #111 on: January 12, 2010, 12:21:20 AM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam

as fitting for their own spiritual journey

edit: I feel I need to emphasis this because you have clearly ignored part of my post in order to accuse me of individualism and not being very Orthodox. Again, you have been Quick Draw McGraw without digesting what I have said. Gebre, I don't know about your spiritual journey, but mine happens within the Church and all that entails.

That's why I began by saying that I agree with you to an extent. So I did digest your statement and obviously found agreement with some of it. But I also pointed out what I perceived to be a spirit of individualism. I subsequently made a critique of individualism in general, and not a criticism of you personally. The spirit of this age (which is heavily individualistic) is an equal opportunity assailer. We can all become its victims if we are not careful. I was not attacking you, but rather pointing out the problem with individualism. I apologize if I came across like I was attacking you personally.

Selam
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« Reply #112 on: January 12, 2010, 01:23:36 AM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam

as fitting for their own spiritual journey

edit: I feel I need to emphasis this because you have clearly ignored part of my post in order to accuse me of individualism and not being very Orthodox. Again, you have been Quick Draw McGraw without digesting what I have said. Gebre, I don't know about your spiritual journey, but mine happens within the Church and all that entails.

That's why I began by saying that I agree with you to an extent. So I did digest your statement and obviously found agreement with some of it. But I also pointed out what I perceived to be a spirit of individualism. I subsequently made a critique of individualism in general, and not a criticism of you personally. The spirit of this age (which is heavily individualistic) is an equal opportunity assailer. We can all become its victims if we are not careful. I was not attacking you, but rather pointing out the problem with individualism. I apologize if I came across like I was attacking you personally.

Selam

Your comments were very personal, in fact they are a rebuttal of what you perceive to be my spirit of individualism and not very Orthodox ideology - otherwise there was no reason to comment. I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox, is what you said. This prompted you to then express our need for the Church, as if I had excluded it, which of course you seem to think I had because to you my statement had resonated with a spirit of individualism. You then proceeded with a caricature of the Church that my so-called "spirit of individualism" might produce; self-absorbed, scantilly-clad personalities steeped in the mire of a "self-absorbed morass of individualism".  I'm not sure if it can get more personal than that, especially as you hadn't taken the trouble to clarify that you were correct in what you assumed.

But where did I suggest that one's own spiritual journey was the Lone Ranger experience, galloping off into the sunset of moral decay and egotistical shenanigans, you describe? It seems more likely from where I sit that you simply leapt to an unwarranted conclusion.
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« Reply #113 on: January 12, 2010, 01:25:06 AM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.

Huh?  Huh

I'm guessing that ozgeorge is either referring to my rather uncomely looks, or my rather generous body proportions. Wink

Wow, I'm getting homoerotic vibes again!  Shocked

LOL. Get your mind out of the gutter. I was talking about my fat gut weight issues (about 225 lbs. at 5'9")

Oh, oops.

Well, given how seemingly "pure" people on these forums are, it's pretty hard not to be gutter-minded in comparison.  Undecided
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« Reply #114 on: January 12, 2010, 03:35:56 AM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam

as fitting for their own spiritual journey

edit: I feel I need to emphasis this because you have clearly ignored part of my post in order to accuse me of individualism and not being very Orthodox. Again, you have been Quick Draw McGraw without digesting what I have said. Gebre, I don't know about your spiritual journey, but mine happens within the Church and all that entails.

That's why I began by saying that I agree with you to an extent. So I did digest your statement and obviously found agreement with some of it. But I also pointed out what I perceived to be a spirit of individualism. I subsequently made a critique of individualism in general, and not a criticism of you personally. The spirit of this age (which is heavily individualistic) is an equal opportunity assailer. We can all become its victims if we are not careful. I was not attacking you, but rather pointing out the problem with individualism. I apologize if I came across like I was attacking you personally.

Selam

Your comments were very personal, in fact they are a rebuttal of what you perceive to be my spirit of individualism and not very Orthodox ideology - otherwise there was no reason to comment. I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox, is what you said. This prompted you to then express our need for the Church, as if I had excluded it, which of course you seem to think I had because to you my statement had resonated with a spirit of individualism. You then proceeded with a caricature of the Church that my so-called "spirit of individualism" might produce; self-absorbed, scantilly-clad personalities steeped in the mire of a "self-absorbed morass of individualism".  I'm not sure if it can get more personal than that, especially as you hadn't taken the trouble to clarify that you were correct in what you assumed.

But where did I suggest that one's own spiritual journey was the Lone Ranger experience, galloping off into the sunset of moral decay and egotistical shenanigans, you describe? It seems more likely from where I sit that you simply leapt to an unwarranted conclusion.

Wow. I'm not sure how you got all that from my statement. But again, I meant no offense. Again I apologize if it seemed like I was personally attacking you. I encourage you to revisit my statement and compare how many times I used the word "we" as opposed to the word "you." (I have highlighted the statement in question above in red, and emphasized the words "we" in bold type.)

Selam
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« Reply #115 on: January 12, 2010, 05:09:05 AM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam

as fitting for their own spiritual journey

edit: I feel I need to emphasis this because you have clearly ignored part of my post in order to accuse me of individualism and not being very Orthodox. Again, you have been Quick Draw McGraw without digesting what I have said. Gebre, I don't know about your spiritual journey, but mine happens within the Church and all that entails.

That's why I began by saying that I agree with you to an extent. So I did digest your statement and obviously found agreement with some of it. But I also pointed out what I perceived to be a spirit of individualism. I subsequently made a critique of individualism in general, and not a criticism of you personally. The spirit of this age (which is heavily individualistic) is an equal opportunity assailer. We can all become its victims if we are not careful. I was not attacking you, but rather pointing out the problem with individualism. I apologize if I came across like I was attacking you personally.

Selam

Your comments were very personal, in fact they are a rebuttal of what you perceive to be my spirit of individualism and not very Orthodox ideology - otherwise there was no reason to comment. I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox, is what you said. This prompted you to then express our need for the Church, as if I had excluded it, which of course you seem to think I had because to you my statement had resonated with a spirit of individualism. You then proceeded with a caricature of the Church that my so-called "spirit of individualism" might produce; self-absorbed, scantilly-clad personalities steeped in the mire of a "self-absorbed morass of individualism".  I'm not sure if it can get more personal than that, especially as you hadn't taken the trouble to clarify that you were correct in what you assumed.

But where did I suggest that one's own spiritual journey was the Lone Ranger experience, galloping off into the sunset of moral decay and egotistical shenanigans, you describe? It seems more likely from where I sit that you simply leapt to an unwarranted conclusion.

Wow. I'm not sure how you got all that from my statement. But again, I meant no offense. Again I apologize if it seemed like I was personally attacking you. I encourage you to revisit my statement and compare how many times I used the word "we" as opposed to the word "you." (I have highlighted the statement in question above in red, and emphasized the words "we" in bold type.)

Selam

Ok, Gebre.
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« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2010, 11:42:43 AM »

Some years ago, clothes were my sin. When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, I read about a saint (can't remember her name for the life of me) who was a beautiful, weathly and sort-after woman. On being illuminated, she threw everthing she had been previously aside. The clothes, the wealth, the obsession with the way she looked - and took to wearing rags. The funny thing was, I immediately related to that woman. Things had happened in my life where circumstances had taken wealth from me and in consequence my obsession with clothing. I didn't want to think of clothing, makeup etc anymore, much like a recovering alcohol would avoid wine festivals, I suppose. I didn't want to step back on that roundabout. As long as I am dressed modestly, cleanly; that's all that matters to me.

It came as a shock to find such an emphasis on clothes within the Orthodox church. To be dragged back into worrying about what I was going to wear for Liturgy threatened to become a burden; one I wasn't willing to take on. And yet, if I had turned up to Liturgy in rags, as did the saint I speak of, would anyone have understood that my dealing with my obsession in this way was anything other than breaking the "dress code".  

Now, I know that it's important to be modest; but I think that "dress code" obsession within the Orthodox Church has other dangers. When I spoke to my priest about my personal issues with clothing, and that the list presented to me brought with it an emphasis on something that had been sin to me, something I was no longer willing to do, he said; "wear what you like, just be there". Sometimes that amounts to casual pants and a t-shirt and running shoes - those are my rags.

That's cool. Thanks for sharing. See, I don't see anything you said as being contradictory to the points I have been repeatedly making throughout this thread. I advocate no list of specific things that "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not" wear to Church. Just advocating an emphasis on modesty for both sexes, which you seem to have personally achieved.

Selam

No, that's why my post isn't specifically addressed to you or anything you have said. I know you haven't suggested a "dress code", but there is one doing the rounds in Orthodox circles, one I fear could become an over-emphasis on appearance and ultimately resulting in an unhealthy emphasis on externals, rather than on individual needs. What confirms my fears is that I have seen this "dress code" used for the purposes of exclusion.

What you are reporting is horribly sad news. Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #117 on: January 12, 2010, 11:46:25 AM »

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

I have no problem imagining some Aussie bloke showing up to a church in nothing but his skivvies.  You folks love your alcohol!

I had a similar thought, with the addendum of the particular Aussie just smiling and nodding a "G'day!" to anyone who looked at him funny for being in church like that! Wink
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« Reply #118 on: January 12, 2010, 12:27:11 PM »

I tried this on my mother when I was a teenager (when dinosaurs roamed the earth), telling her that God didn't care about what clothes we wore.
"You're right," she said, "But it's not about God. It's about you."

Personally I don't care what people wear to church - I'm not the fashion police, and my personal style tends toward elderly hippie, with an emphasis on comfort, anyway.

(FWIW, and as food for thought: my husband is a job developer and counselor working primarily with ex-offenders, the homeless and other people with significant employment challenges. One of the most important and useful classes he teaches is how to dress. His thoughts on this thread,"If you would dress up for a job interview, or for a formal occasion, or for a friend's wedding, and you dress casually to go to church and worship God, then maybe it would be useful to spend a little time thinking about why.")
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« Reply #119 on: January 14, 2010, 02:32:37 AM »

Own lots of cats!  All of your clothing will soon appear to be cashmere.  Grin

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« Reply #120 on: January 14, 2010, 09:16:08 AM »

Cool. Trousers are no longer a fashion scandal anyway. After all, men used to wear skirts in Greece for more than a century, ha!

One of my friends was recently not allowed to enter a women's monastery though because she was wearing trousers...
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« Reply #121 on: January 14, 2010, 06:05:54 PM »


After all, men used to wear skirts in Greece for more than a century, ha!

Are you referring to the fustanella?
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« Reply #122 on: January 14, 2010, 07:00:31 PM »


After all, men used to wear skirts in Greece for more than a century, ha!

Are you referring to the fustanella?
The "foustanella" is a skirt worn by Christian men and a "fousta" is a skirt worn by Christian women.
They're all skirts.
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« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2010, 05:09:08 PM »

We should not scold anyone for how they are dressed when they com to church. If it bothers us then that means we aren't praying hard enough at church. We don't know what the person is going through and maybe that's the only clothes they have is what they are wearing. However, I do feel that Orthodox Christians should make it a point to dress modestly in church so we aren't attracting attention to ourselves.
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« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2010, 05:33:16 PM »


The above points are correct. 

If we focus on our own prayers, we won't notice the girl in jeans next to us.  I believe in dressing modestly and wearing your "best" to Liturgy.

I wear pants to church more often than not.  It gets cold here...and the freezing wind whipping up your legs is rather unpleasant...so, I started wearing pants....and I liked it.

These days you will seldom see me in a skirt.  Besides, one might say that loose fitting pants are even more modest than a skirt....showing off legs and ankles!   Wink

Having said all that...there have been a few instances where I felt like telling a couple of women they needed to think about what they wore to church.  One lady showed up in summer with a "see through" white gossamer blouse.  It had long sleeves, and buttoned up the front.  It wasn't tight, at all.  However, it was completely see-through...and all you saw was her skin and her bra.  It was rather distracting as she placed herself up front and center...and every time you would look up...there she was.

Another lady came in wearing a zipped up jacket.  When she took her "place", the logo on the back sparkled really pretty.  It was all silver sequins on a hot pink satin waist length jacket.  All of this would be fine...and I simply think she didn't know what her "logo" actually suggested.  It said "Private Dancer".    Shocked


 
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« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2010, 05:43:27 PM »


After all, men used to wear skirts in Greece for more than a century, ha!

Are you referring to the fustanella?
The "foustanella" is a skirt worn by Christian men and a "fousta" is a skirt worn by Christian women.
They're all skirts.

As is the Scottish kilt, which I wore exclusively for darn near two years.  Smiley

I still break it out every now and then, but have yet to wear it to church.  One of our other parishoners is also of Scottish descent and wore his on St. Andrew's day (patron saint of Scotland and also of our parish) but he served behind the iconostasis and was therefore wearing a cassock the entire time.  I didn't notice his attire until coffee hour and instantly wished I wore one of mine.

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« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2010, 05:48:29 PM »

However, is it too hard for us Orthodox that know better to go out of our way and dress modestly and provide an example to others in church......
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« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2010, 05:57:56 PM »

Quote

Another lady came in wearing a zipped up jacket.  When she took her "place", the logo on the back sparkled really pretty.  It was all silver sequins on a hot pink satin waist length jacket.  All of this would be fine...and I simply think she didn't know what her "logo" actually suggested.  It said "Private Dancer".    Shocked

LOL. The worst I've seen so far (as far as logos/writing on clothing is concerned) was a young Russian immigrant woman who was wearing a skin tight top (but high-necked and longsleeved) with a two word expression containing the "f" word. She was standing right in front of me in church and I couldn't believe my eyes that this was for real...It could be that she simply had no clue as to what she was wearing, I'm not sure though...


 
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« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2010, 06:29:27 PM »


The above points are correct. 

If we focus on our own prayers, we won't notice the girl in jeans next to us.  I believe in dressing modestly and wearing your "best" to Liturgy.

I wear pants to church more often than not.  It gets cold here...and the freezing wind whipping up your legs is rather unpleasant...so, I started wearing pants....and I liked it.

These days you will seldom see me in a skirt.  Besides, one might say that loose fitting pants are even more modest than a skirt....showing off legs and ankles!   Wink

Having said all that...there have been a few instances where I felt like telling a couple of women they needed to think about what they wore to church.  One lady showed up in summer with a "see through" white gossamer blouse.  It had long sleeves, and buttoned up the front.  It wasn't tight, at all.  However, it was completely see-through...and all you saw was her skin and her bra.  It was rather distracting as she placed herself up front and center...and every time you would look up...there she was.

Another lady came in wearing a zipped up jacket.  When she took her "place", the logo on the back sparkled really pretty.  It was all silver sequins on a hot pink satin waist length jacket.  All of this would be fine...and I simply think she didn't know what her "logo" actually suggested.  It said "Private Dancer".    Shocked


 

Just a practical suggestion: wear pants underneath your dress. That's what I have my daughter do. It's comfortable and modest.

Selam
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« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2010, 06:34:02 PM »

Quote

Another lady came in wearing a zipped up jacket.  When she took her "place", the logo on the back sparkled really pretty.  It was all silver sequins on a hot pink satin waist length jacket.  All of this would be fine...and I simply think she didn't know what her "logo" actually suggested.  It said "Private Dancer".    Shocked

LOL. The worst I've seen so far (as far as logos/writing on clothing is concerned) was a young Russian immigrant woman who was wearing a skin tight top (but high-necked and longsleeved) with a two word expression containing the "f" word. She was standing right in front of me in church and I couldn't believe my eyes that this was for real...It could be that she simply had no clue as to what she was wearing, I'm not sure though...



It is not beyond possibility that satan's minions deliberately come to Church to distract the God-fearing from their prayers.

I think men should confront other men who are dressed immodestly, and women should confront women who are dressing immodestly. Sometimes we can be so concerned about not offending one individual that we allow the entire Church to be offended.

Selam
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« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2010, 06:45:08 PM »


After all, men used to wear skirts in Greece for more than a century, ha!

Are you referring to the fustanella?
The "foustanella" is a skirt worn by Christian men and a "fousta" is a skirt worn by Christian women.
They're all skirts.

As is the Scottish kilt, which I wore exclusively for darn near two years.  Smiley

I still break it out every now and then, but have yet to wear it to church.  One of our other parishoners is also of Scottish descent and wore his on St. Andrew's day (patron saint of Scotland and also of our parish) but he served behind the iconostasis and was therefore wearing a cassock the entire time.  I didn't notice his attire until coffee hour and instantly wished I wore one of mine.

True Scotsman?  Wink
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« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2010, 07:19:17 PM »

I recently attended an Orthodox wedding at the local Russian church. The groom was of Scottish ancestry, and he and his three groomsmen were in full traditional dress - kilt, tartan sash, brooch, old-style white shirt with the frilly cuffs, the lot. Magnificent, and completely manly.
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« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2010, 07:29:26 PM »

I wear pants to church more often than not.  It gets cold here...and the freezing wind whipping up your legs is rather unpleasant...so, I started wearing pants....and I liked it.

I had that problem, until I discovered stockings.  Wink
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« Reply #133 on: January 19, 2010, 02:15:53 AM »

I'm all for freedom to wear what one wants to church (in moderation of course).  However, I do feel that women, more then men, should be more selective about the types of outfits that they choose to dress up in.  Remember that men have a stronger sex drive then women and therefore have trouble controlling their thoughts and feelings when exposed to something that they view as arousing.  I can tell you that their are plenty of times when I'm in church minding my own business and get distracted from prayer and paying attention by some scantly clad women in the next pew.  

 Women should have a right to dress as they see fit but they should also remember that men also have a right to go to church and pray without being either distracted or aroused by them.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 02:16:32 AM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
believer74
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« Reply #134 on: January 19, 2010, 11:17:05 AM »

I totally agree church is not the place to express your individuality, social class, sexuality, etc. I think pants work as well as or better than skirts. The sexy look is really a problem sometimes. At my husband's parish, the girls are so obviously going clubbing after the Easter service. Leather mini-skirt and thigh boots? Really? I feel so bad for guys.
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Tags: proper behavior 
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