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Author Topic: Archbishop Hilarion protects female parishioners in trousers  (Read 13857 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2010, 05:14:57 AM »


You have to realize that some of these posters take a Jeffersonian approach to the Holy Scriptures; i.e. they desire to cut out any and all biblical texts that don't align with their own myopic worldview. Eventually, the only Scripture they will affirm as valid for today is the word "me."

Comparing people here to Jefferson? That's ridiculous.

 

You're right. At least Jefferson believed in God; but we have atheists who feel the need to propagate their anti-God views on this forum.

Selam

I haven't seen anything of that sort in this thread.

No. But the Jeffersonian spirit is rampant throughout this thread, evidenced by the subjective opinions indicating that modesty is passe, culturally relavant, and superfluous in today's world. But then again, I'm sure some of these people consider this a compliment.

Selam

I haven't seen any opinion indicating that.
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« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2010, 10:46:33 AM »


You have to realize that some of these posters take a Jeffersonian approach to the Holy Scriptures; i.e. they desire to cut out any and all biblical texts that don't align with their own myopic worldview. Eventually, the only Scripture they will affirm as valid for today is the word "me."

Comparing people here to Jefferson? That's ridiculous.

 

You're right. At least Jefferson believed in God; but we have atheists who feel the need to propagate their anti-God views on this forum.

Selam

I haven't seen anything of that sort in this thread.

No. But the Jeffersonian spirit is rampant throughout this thread, evidenced by the subjective opinions indicating that modesty is passe, culturally relavant, and superfluous in today's world. But then again, I'm sure some of these people consider this a compliment.

Selam

You're the one selectively lifting morality from the OT and NT and holding it up as timeless. If you want to be consistent, why not take all the "timeless" morality the OT has to offer.
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« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2010, 11:04:45 AM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

In Roman and Byzantine times, the basic dress for men and women was largely the same. I don't recall anyone in the Church raising a fuss about it.
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« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2010, 11:52:23 AM »

If we are going to take Deut 22:5 in solely a strict and literal sense, then we should be doing the same with verses 11 and 12:
“You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together. You shall make tassels on the corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself.” (SAAS)
The footnote in the OSB for v 5 reads in part “...a man should not try to be a woman, nor a woman a man.”  It’s less about the appearance of the clothing and more about the appearance of the person.
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« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2010, 11:54:09 AM »

If we are going to take Deut 22:5 in solely a strict and literal sense, then we should be doing the same with verses 11 and 12:
“You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together. You shall make tassels on the corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself.” (SAAS)
The footnote in the OSB for v 5 reads in part “...a man should not try to be a woman, nor a woman a man.”  It’s less about the appearance of the clothing and more about the appearance of the person.

And for those born as both men and women?
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« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2010, 12:08:35 PM »

If we are going to take Deut 22:5 in solely a strict and literal sense, then we should be doing the same with verses 11 and 12:
“You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together. You shall make tassels on the corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself.” (SAAS)
The footnote in the OSB for v 5 reads in part “...a man should not try to be a woman, nor a woman a man.”  It’s less about the appearance of the clothing and more about the appearance of the person.

And for those born as both men and women?
I’m not sure if you are referring to those who are born with both male and female anatomical characteristics or if you are referring to a “born gay” way of thinking. In either case, those are pastoral issues and need to be dealt with in confession and counselling, and not here.
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« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2010, 12:17:01 PM »

Modest dress is appropriate for church.

I'm glad the Arch-bishop has pointed out that there is nothing inherently immodest about a woman wearing pants.

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« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2010, 12:18:39 PM »

The footnote in the OSB for v 5 reads in part “...a man should not try to be a woman, nor a woman a man.”  It’s less about the appearance of the clothing and more about the appearance of the person.

And for those born as both men and women?
If they are both, then the above quotation can't really apply to them. Can it?
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« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2010, 12:22:22 PM »

The babushkas/yayas can only make so many pierogies/baklavas every Saturday to sell in order to pay for the enormous heating bill. PLEASE DRESS WARMLY for DL. If you freeze during DL, please wear pants. Your church may not have the funds to raise the thermostat setting."  Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2010, 12:49:27 PM »

^^LOL! You can always wrap a floor-length skirt around your trousers too-they keep them in a box at the back. I always marvel at the transformation that occurs sometimes. Women enter the church in jeans with nothing on their heads. After awhile I see them again and they are wearing a long skirt and a huge headscarf! All courtesy of the Box.
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« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2010, 01:05:33 PM »


Matthew 22:

 11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 14For many are called, but few are chosen.

From the above words, I didn't "read" wear your dumpiest, ugliest, most scrawny clothing, so as not to get yourself noticed by anybody else.

I believe in wearing my "best" clothes to church. 
Why bother looking "good" anywhere else, if not in church?  Shouldn't one look their best when they deem to enter the House of God?
Best, does not mean provocative to all people.

What if someone has a captivating smile or a pretty face?  Should we hide them, as well?  Weren't these given by God?
What of the singer in the choir with the extraordinary voice...that while singing hymns to God, does get her noticed and complimented.  Should she stop singing?

If I acquire a new article of clothing, I wear it for the first time to church, as well.  I have been known to wear both pants and skirts.  There is nothing immodest about pants, as long as they are not tight.

If a person dresses modestly, and does not set out to look alluring, or to tempt others....there should be nothing wrong with it.

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« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2010, 01:17:26 PM »


Matthew 22:

 11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 14For many are called, but few are chosen.

From the above words, I didn't "read" wear your dumpiest, ugliest, most scrawny clothing, so as not to get yourself noticed by anybody else.

Neither did I. In fact, I don't think it has anything to do with the physical garments you wear to church at all. You are taking a spiritual parable and giving it an earthly application that I doubt is intended. Christ is also referred to as the Bridegroom, but I hope nobody gives this an earthly, literal interpretation.

Quote
Why bother looking "good" anywhere else, if not in church?  Shouldn't one look their best when they deem to enter the House of God?

The quality of someone's wedding garment depends very little on his physical clothing; plenty of saints went around naked or in rags, but I suspect their "wedding garments" will look considerably nicer than mine.

Quote
Best, does not mean provocative to all people.

Yet many people don't distinguish between their "best" for church and their "best" for a party.
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« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2010, 01:24:33 PM »

Yes, I understand the deeper meaning behind "wedding garment". 

That just supports my view even more.  If one's true "garment" is clean and acceptable to God, then surely their outward appearance would reflect their inner modesty.

They go hand in hand.

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« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2010, 01:29:50 PM »

That just supports my view even more.  If one's true "garment" is clean and acceptable to God, then surely their outward appearance would reflect their inner modesty.

Perhaps, but the beauty of the kingdom of heaven is very far from the carnal beauty embodied in "nice" clothes. Many holy monks and nuns wear the same raggedy habits for years without washing them; do you suppose that they are somehow failing to express their inner beauty? Re: your point about choir singers- the point of the choir is to adorn the church and glorify God, and a beautiful voice can accomplish this. However, if a singer becomes so ostentatious that we pay attention to him and his virtuosity rather than the hymn, then we are no longer in the realm of beauty proper to worship.
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« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2010, 01:46:28 PM »

I have nothing but respect for all monks, nuns, clergy, hermits, etc.  I would never deem to judge any of them.

However, I am not a nun, nor do I live in a monastery.  Therefore, if I received a beautiful bright red coat for Christmas, you better believe I will wear it to Liturgy, even though the red color will get noticed.

I wear my nicest, newest clothes to church - none of which is immodest, tight or revealing.

Besides, I believe that our clergy (even mere Altar boys) wear lovely attire, trimmed in gold and sparklies! 
Makes them quite noticable.

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« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2010, 02:22:15 PM »

I have nothing but respect for all monks, nuns, clergy, hermits, etc.  I would never deem to judge any of them.

However, I am not a nun, nor do I live in a monastery.  Therefore, if I received a beautiful bright red coat for Christmas, you better believe I will wear it to Liturgy, even though the red color will get noticed.

I wear my nicest, newest clothes to church - none of which is immodest, tight or revealing.

Besides, I believe that our clergy (even mere Altar boys) wear lovely attire, trimmed in gold and sparklies! 
Makes them quite noticable.


I concur. It is also my observation over the years that many who profess that it is inappropriate to be noticed in Church by virtue of attire, singing voice or whatever really attain the opposite result by virtue of their behavior. Modesty should always rule; today's attire norm is not the norm of the 19th century, the 16th century, the 11th century or any other period in the past. 
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« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2010, 06:18:52 PM »

The problem is that our everyday and even formal styles of dress cloths change from era to era.  What would be considered casual dress 50 years ago would probably be seen as formal by today's standards.  There's nothing most of us can do about this since we all tend to be products of our times and the fashions attached to them (whether we like it or not).

When I was younger, in high school, I used to try and dress up very nice.  I would wear sports jackets and slacks most of the time.  Do you know what the other kids ended up thinking?  That I was a homosexual for taking such time to care about my appearance.  Considering that one of the main reasons I had for dressing up was to impress girls, it was disparaging for me to learn that this is what others were secretly thinking about me.  If I wanted to fit in and be like everybody else then I had to end up dressing like everybody else.

I definitely don't approve of people dressing in sexual provocative ways to church, but the clergy have to realize that we parishioners have to live and interact in the modern world as well. This includes embracing the fashions that prevail in that world least we face needless ridicule for not doing so.  I really wish that they would lighten up about this more.
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« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2010, 06:48:19 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

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« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2010, 06:53:09 PM »


I agree!
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« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2010, 06:53:35 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

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« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2010, 06:56:44 PM »

Quote
Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

I nearly choked on my dinner. Now that would be quite the sight!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Quote
I would wear sports jackets and slacks most of the time.  Do you know what the other kids ended up thinking?  That I was a homosexual for taking such time to care about my appearance. 


Wow, that certainly backfired on you too, Robb! Sorry, but this is but yet isn't funny! I am sure there must have been more than a few girls who secretly had crushes on you and that your efforts weren't totally in vain!
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« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2010, 06:59:29 PM »

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

I have no problem imagining some Aussie bloke showing up to a church in nothing but his skivvies.  You folks love your alcohol!
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« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2010, 07:03:13 PM »


Where would I be without you?


Probably somewhere doing something more useful than mocking me at every turn. Wink

Selam
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« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2010, 07:05:55 PM »

Quote
Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

Now that would be quite the sight!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2010, 07:09:22 PM »

I dress modestly wherever I go, so I don't see dressing for Church as being some separate issue. Sunday best? I don't really have anything like that and tend to dress for comfort. There once was a time when clothing was very important (too important) to me; it isn't anymore. I guess part of my theosis is overcoming pride in how I look; getting older has helped probably in that.  Wink I'm grateful for that; in retrospect I would have hated to have passed this life pondering an accessory list.

However, I have seen ridiculous lists of restrictions regarding the so-called Orthodox "dress code", and I think most people rightly intend to ignore them as being completely invasive - and even silly.

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« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2010, 07:10:49 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.



 laugh  laugh  laugh
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« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2010, 07:12:15 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam

Well, it's not that simple. The question has really become, "what constitutes modest dress". For some it's the burqa, while for others it's a pantsuit. Some see an ankle length dress as the only truly "modest" style for church, and others with convertitus have a whole range of "modest" styles to chose from.
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« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2010, 07:13:27 PM »

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

I have no problem imagining some Aussie bloke showing up to a church in nothing but his skivvies.  You folks love your alcohol!

My goodness - what generalisation!  laugh
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« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2010, 07:13:44 PM »


Where would I be without you?


Probably somewhere doing something more useful than mocking me at every turn. Wink
I can't help it. You're so mockable.
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« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2010, 07:18:51 PM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

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« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2010, 07:32:48 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam

Well, it's not that simple. The question has really become, "what constitutes modest dress". For some it's the burqa, while for others it's a pantsuit. Some see an ankle length dress as the only truly "modest" style for church, and others with convertitus have a whole range of "modest" styles to chose from.

I agree with both of you. The problem is not with the principle of modesty, it is with what modesty is in any given culture and who defines it. Of course, certain attires are immodest per se (like the Man from Oz in his underpants) or even bordering on the obscene (if the Man of Oz sported thongs Shocked) or if a woman dressed up like a hooker. On the other side of the coin, if all the men wore suits and a few decide to wear only a dress shirt & pants, but no tie to show everybody how "modest" they are, it would also be wrong as this could cause unjustified pride.

In the United States of America, unlike Australia, there is a general understanding of what modest attire is: business or business casual attire for men and women both. In other words, do not dress as if you are going to the beach or a party. Ankle length dresses and head coverings may be an overreaction to miniskirts and hairdresser and make up artist enhanced hair and face.
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« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2010, 07:36:42 PM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

SRSLY?
Yes

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2010, 07:40:12 PM »

If we all just wore togas, this wouldn't be an issue. Just sayin'.

Depends on the variety of toga Wink

What? You don't think this kind of toga would work or something?  Wink
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« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2010, 07:41:50 PM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

SRSLY?
Yes

I love it: we now have another authority on the subject: the person who invented the stick figures for the bathroom! I think that Scottish men may take umbrage at restricting men to trousers.

In any case, how did the signage on the bathroom doors ever got into this discussion anyway? In Mexican restaurants, one occasionally sees Bulls and Cows; in English pubs, you may see a number of male types (pirates, gentlemen, etc.) and wenches. How would our esteemed bathroom door expert interpret those variations?
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« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2010, 07:47:14 PM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

SRSLY?
Yes

I love it: we now have another authority on the subject: the person who invented the stick figures for the bathroom! I think that Scottish men may take umbrage at restricting men to trousers.

In any case, how did the signage on the bathroom doors ever got into this discussion anyway? In Mexican restaurants, one occasionally sees Bulls and Cows; in English pubs, you may see a number of male types (pirates, gentlemen, etc.) and wenches. How would our esteemed bathroom door expert interpret those variations?

 Cheesy
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« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2010, 07:48:11 PM »

If we all just wore togas, this wouldn't be an issue. Just sayin'.

Depends on the variety of toga Wink

What? You don't think this kind of toga would work or something?  Wink

Haha. That would draw more attention than standard skimpy dress!
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« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2010, 07:52:42 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam



Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.



 laugh  laugh  laugh

Instead of the sarcasm, why not address why you agree or disagree with my statements above?

Selam
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« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2010, 07:55:12 PM »

Some years ago, clothes were my sin. When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, I read about a saint (can't remember her name for the life of me) who was a beautiful, weathly and sought-after woman. On being illuminated, she threw everthing she had been previously aside. The clothes, the wealth, the obsession with the way she looked - and took to wearing rags. The funny thing was, I immediately related to that woman. Things had happened in my life where circumstances had taken wealth from me and in consequence my obsession with clothing. I didn't want to think of clothing, makeup etc anymore, much like a recovering alcohol would avoid wine festivals, I suppose. I didn't want to step back on that roundabout. As long as I am dressed modestly, cleanly; that's all that matters to me.

It came as a shock to find such an emphasis on clothes within the Orthodox church. To be dragged back into worrying about what I was going to wear for Liturgy threatened to become a burden; one I wasn't willing to take on. And yet, if I had turned up to Liturgy in rags, as did the saint I speak of, would anyone have understood that my dealing with my obsession in this way was anything other than breaking the "dress code".  

Now, I know that it's important to be modest; but I think that "dress code" obsession within the Orthodox Church has other dangers. When I spoke to my priest about my personal issues with clothing, and that the list presented to me brought with it an emphasis on something that had been sin to me, something I was no longer willing to do, he said; "wear what you like, just be there". Sometimes that amounts to casual pants and a t-shirt and running shoes - those are my rags.
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« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2010, 08:04:54 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam



Well, it's not that simple. The question has really become, "what constitutes modest dress". For some it's the burqa, while for others it's a pantsuit. Some see an ankle length dress as the only truly "modest" style for church, and others with convertitus have a whole range of "modest" styles to chose from.

I agree with both of you. The problem is not with the principle of modesty, it is with what modesty is in any given culture and who defines it. Of course, certain attires are immodest per se (like the Man from Oz in his underpants) or even bordering on the obscene (if the Man of Oz sported thongs Shocked) or if a woman dressed up like a hooker. On the other side of the coin, if all the men wore suits and a few decide to wear only a dress shirt & pants, but no tie to show everybody how "modest" they are, it would also be wrong as this could cause unjustified pride.

In the United States of America, unlike Australia, there is a general understanding of what modest attire is: business or business casual attire for men and women both. In other words, do not dress as if you are going to the beach or a party. Ankle length dresses and head coverings may be an overreaction to miniskirts and hairdresser and make up artist enhanced hair and face.

Right. That's why I said that if we all consider our culture and our ecclesiastical contexts, and then try to err on the side of modesty when considering our Church attire, then most of these problems would be solved. The issue is really about our hearts. Are we trying to draw undue attention to ourselves by how we dress for Church, or are we dressing so as not to be a distraction or a stumbling block to our brothers and sisters? That's why I think it's simple. If one's thought process is, "I have a right to dress this way, and if a man lusts that's his problem," then I think that's an unChristian attitude. And on the other extreme, if one's thought process is, "I'm going to show everyone how spritiual I am by wearing a 'quasi-burka,'" then I also think that is a prideful and unChristian attitude. But if we all simply TRY to be as modest and respectful as possible, then I think most of these problems woudl be solved. Of course there will always be fundamentalists and extremists of both the licentious and conservative persuasion, and they will never be happy.

Selam
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« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2010, 08:09:43 PM »

Some years ago, clothes were my sin. When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, I read about a saint (can't remember her name for the life of me) who was a beautiful, weathly and sort-after woman. On being illuminated, she threw everthing she had been previously aside. The clothes, the wealth, the obsession with the way she looked - and took to wearing rags. The funny thing was, I immediately related to that woman. Things had happened in my life where circumstances had taken wealth from me and in consequence my obsession with clothing. I didn't want to think of clothing, makeup etc anymore, much like a recovering alcohol would avoid wine festivals, I suppose. I didn't want to step back on that roundabout. As long as I am dressed modestly, cleanly; that's all that matters to me.

It came as a shock to find such an emphasis on clothes within the Orthodox church. To be dragged back into worrying about what I was going to wear for Liturgy threatened to become a burden; one I wasn't willing to take on. And yet, if I had turned up to Liturgy in rags, as did the saint I speak of, would anyone have understood that my dealing with my obsession in this way was anything other than breaking the "dress code".  

Now, I know that it's important to be modest; but I think that "dress code" obsession within the Orthodox Church has other dangers. When I spoke to my priest about my personal issues with clothing, and that the list presented to me brought with it an emphasis on something that had been sin to me, something I was no longer willing to do, he said; "wear what you like, just be there". Sometimes that amounts to casual pants and a t-shirt and running shoes - those are my rags.

That's cool. Thanks for sharing. See, I don't see anything you said as being contradictory to the points I have been repeatedly making throughout this thread. I advocate no list of specific things that "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not" wear to Church. Just advocating an emphasis on modesty for both sexes, which you seem to have personally achieved.

Selam
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« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2010, 08:10:23 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam



Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.



 laugh  laugh  laugh

Instead of the sarcasm, why not address why you agree or disagree with my statements above?

Selam

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
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« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2010, 08:19:40 PM »

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
"He" is a she, and she has met me, so I hope I haven't given her a horrible mental picture that will haunt her the rest of her days.
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« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2010, 08:29:05 PM »

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
"He" is a she, and she has met me, so I hope I haven't given her a horrible mental picture that will haunt her the rest of her days.

 laugh I'm going to need counselling, George!
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« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2010, 08:35:16 PM »

Instead of the sarcasm, why not address why you agree or disagree with my statements above?
To what end? Why should anyone comment on your post? Your post was made with an air of pontification of what you say Orthodox Christians must think and then you ended it with an emoticon rolling its eyes are our stupidity for not realising The TruthTM of your pronouncement.
Why would anyone bother?
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« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2010, 08:48:14 PM »

Some years ago, clothes were my sin. When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, I read about a saint (can't remember her name for the life of me) who was a beautiful, weathly and sort-after woman. On being illuminated, she threw everthing she had been previously aside. The clothes, the wealth, the obsession with the way she looked - and took to wearing rags. The funny thing was, I immediately related to that woman. Things had happened in my life where circumstances had taken wealth from me and in consequence my obsession with clothing. I didn't want to think of clothing, makeup etc anymore, much like a recovering alcohol would avoid wine festivals, I suppose. I didn't want to step back on that roundabout. As long as I am dressed modestly, cleanly; that's all that matters to me.

It came as a shock to find such an emphasis on clothes within the Orthodox church. To be dragged back into worrying about what I was going to wear for Liturgy threatened to become a burden; one I wasn't willing to take on. And yet, if I had turned up to Liturgy in rags, as did the saint I speak of, would anyone have understood that my dealing with my obsession in this way was anything other than breaking the "dress code".  

Now, I know that it's important to be modest; but I think that "dress code" obsession within the Orthodox Church has other dangers. When I spoke to my priest about my personal issues with clothing, and that the list presented to me brought with it an emphasis on something that had been sin to me, something I was no longer willing to do, he said; "wear what you like, just be there". Sometimes that amounts to casual pants and a t-shirt and running shoes - those are my rags.

That's cool. Thanks for sharing. See, I don't see anything you said as being contradictory to the points I have been repeatedly making throughout this thread. I advocate no list of specific things that "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not" wear to Church. Just advocating an emphasis on modesty for both sexes, which you seem to have personally achieved.

Selam

No, that's why my post isn't specifically addressed to you or anything you have said. I know you haven't suggested a "dress code", but there is one doing the rounds in Orthodox circles, one I fear could become an over-emphasis on appearance and ultimately resulting in an unhealthy emphasis on externals, rather than on individual needs. What confirms my fears is that I have seen this "dress code" used for the purposes of exclusion.
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