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Author Topic: Archbishop Hilarion protects female parishioners in trousers  (Read 14159 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 14, 2009, 08:16:03 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6736

14 December 2009, 16:14

Archbishop Hilarion protects female parishioners in trousers

Moscow, December 14, Interfax – Head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Archbishop Hilarion of Volokolamsk urges to be more tolerant of the way parishioners are dressed.

Sometimes casual dressed young men and girls in trousers came to the Church "to find support and understanding, but were subjected to insults and humiliation," the Archbishop told the Church and World program (the Vesti TV).

He considers such attitude "a disease we should fight against," the DECR website reported on Monday.

Archbishop Hilarion points out that women's trouser suits have been produced in Russia and in the West for over 80 years, thus we cannot consider trousers men's clothing only. "The Lord looks at a person's heart, not at his or her cloths," he stressed.

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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 08:20:45 PM »

Good of Abp Hilarion, that he said that.
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2009, 08:27:46 PM »

I don't think Heaven is concerned about fashions. Good on the Archbishop.
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2009, 08:43:09 PM »

I don't suppose Heaven is bothered about clothes? But please don't come naked to church!
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2010, 06:34:33 PM »

I wish he was there with me when an ROC priest chewed me out for wearing shorts in his church  (I wasn't even "officially" attending the service, just dropped by to take some pictures of the church when they were open during a vigil service).
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 07:43:23 PM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 09:41:46 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6736

14 December 2009, 16:14

Archbishop Hilarion protects female parishioners in trousers

Moscow, December 14, Interfax – Head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Archbishop Hilarion of Volokolamsk urges to be more tolerant of the way parishioners are dressed.

Sometimes casual dressed young men and girls in trousers came to the Church "to find support and understanding, but were subjected to insults and humiliation," the Archbishop told the Church and World program (the Vesti TV).

He considers such attitude "a disease we should fight against," the DECR website reported on Monday.

Archbishop Hilarion points out that women's trouser suits have been produced in Russia and in the West for over 80 years, thus we cannot consider trousers men's clothing only. "The Lord looks at a person's heart, not at his or her cloths," he stressed.

==================

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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 09:44:57 PM »


Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam

Plenty of women where pants simply as a casual form of dress, not really having anything to do with fashion or seduction.
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 10:04:59 PM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam

I agree. And men should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible, too! In fact, why not have them put a bag over their heads in the process. I remember being in Church with my daughter once. The Liturgy had started and I was following along as one does. Daughter happened to turn around as a young Greek god glides into Church. Being the pious lady I am, I didn't notice. Tongue So daughter elbows me and with a jerk of her head in his direction draws my attention to the newly arrived "deity"!

Ok, ok... I repented!

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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 10:06:03 PM »


Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam



Plenty of women where pants simply as a casual form of dress, not really having anything to do with fashion or seduction.

What is important is that we dress modestly and respectfully and that to some extent is dictated by the culture we live in. What is considered respectful in modern America may not have been respectful a hundred years ago and may not be in modern day Romania or Tanzania. Sensibilities change in time and place.
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 10:15:30 PM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam

Many women find a man dressed in a well-fitting suit with a white shirt and tie most alluring. Does this mean men should stop wearing such clothes to church for fear it may distract the ladies?
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 10:19:06 PM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam

Many women find a man dressed in a well-fitting suit with a white shirt and tie most alluring. Does this mean men should stop wearing such clothes to church for fear it may distract the ladies?

Yes, perhaps we (male and female) should all wear burkas?  angel
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 10:20:51 PM »

I wish he was there with me when an ROC priest chewed me out for wearing shorts in his church  (I wasn't even "officially" attending the service, just dropped by to take some pictures of the church when they were open during a vigil service).

When I was in Greece I used to have a pair of pants in my bag, which I would put on when I passed a Church and go in (I went into any Church that was open).  I wasn't even crazy about my sons wearing shorts when they were younger.  When a Church is consecrated, it is set aside, and not like any other place.
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 10:57:07 PM »

I think in that context the issue is not pants.  There is an overall problem of people coming to the Church, not knowing what to do, and getting scolded easily by priests.   
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 11:40:11 PM »

I've seen middle-age women scolded for wearing very tasteful and modest pant-suits in a ROCOR parish. I guess there "pious dress" was determined c. 19th cent. In cases like that it seems to me that modesty is not the issue, but preservation of certain cultural norms disguised as "modesty".

On the flip side I've seen girls/young women in skin tight jeans and t-shirts in Moscow parishes who took the time to cover their heads!
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2010, 11:51:55 PM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam


   
Many women find a man dressed in a well-fitting suit with a white shirt and tie most alluring. Does this mean men should stop wearing such clothes to church for fear it may distract the ladies?

Yes, perhaps we (male and female) should all wear burkas?  angel

I anticipated such reactionary responses to my simple and plain comments. But I will indulge you guys anyway. If men are dressing specifically to draw attention to themselves or to look sexy, then that is not an appropriate approach in considering Church attire. Modesty and respect are of equal importance for both genders. Someone can always attack modesty by gradually inching the bar lower and lower. But I know what that game is all about, and I don't even pay it any mind. Whether you are a man or a woman, if you love God and love your fellow man then you will err on the side caution. You will adorn yourself in such a way as to give God the glory rather than yourself.

Selam
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2010, 11:54:21 PM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam


   
Many women find a man dressed in a well-fitting suit with a white shirt and tie most alluring. Does this mean men should stop wearing such clothes to church for fear it may distract the ladies?

Yes, perhaps we (male and female) should all wear burkas?  angel

I anticipated such reactionary responses to my simple and plain comments. But I will indulge you guys anyway. If men are dressing specifically to draw attention to themselves or to look sexy, then that is not an appropriate approach in considering Church attire. Modesty and respect are of equal importance for both genders. Someone can always attack modesty by gradually inching the bar lower and lower. But I know what that game is all about, and I don't even pay it any mind. Whether you are a man or a woman, if you love God and love your fellow man then you will err on the side caution. You will adorn yourself in such a way as to give God the glory rather than yourself.

Selam

But if we are made in the image of God should we not reflect his glory through, for example, a designer suit that makes us look great?  Wink
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 12:55:43 AM »

I know I'm not a Bishop, nor do I pretend to be. But in my honest opinion, this is one of the things that the Church should allow to change with time, that is dress code.

If someone comes into a church in trousers, jeans or even sweatpants, I don't believe there is anything wrong with it... How can we know if that's all that person has to wear? Who then, are we to scold them?

The only occurrences I can think of where someone's dress should be corrected, is if it is too revealing of their anatomy. If a woman wears a low cut shirt, or a skirt or shorts that are too high, or a man who is wearing shorts that are too high, or a shirt that is too transparent... You get the picture...

It's up to the Bishops and the Priests, but our dress code should not be stuck in the 19th Century...
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 01:09:17 AM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2010, 01:11:30 AM »

If we all just wore togas, this wouldn't be an issue. Just sayin'.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2010, 01:16:23 AM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

You are being too logical and too biblical my friend. Expect a barage of tirades against your anachronistic and unenlightened opinion. You have to realize that some of these posters take a Jeffersonian approach to the Holy Scriptures; i.e. they desire to cut out any and all biblical texts that don't align with their own myopic worldview. Eventually, the only Scripture they will affirm as valid for today is the word "me."

But I'm with you 100%. Wink

Selam
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2010, 01:17:36 AM »

If we all just wore togas, this wouldn't be an issue. Just sayin'.

Yes, considering that both male and female attire consisted of tunics or different lengths when Deuteronomy was written. Wasn't the idea of trousers borrowed from the Persians?
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2010, 02:31:46 AM »

A-MEN! (to Abp. HILARION)

More to this:
I believe there are several different perspectives regarding dress.  On one end, there is the Russian 18th century perspective that says that women must wear full length clothing (dresses or skirts) and men long sleeve shirts and pants, with both looking rather peasant-like.  On the other end, there is the Protestant-"dress your Sunday best" attitude.  Well, both styles seem to have conflict with both modern dress and the actual intent of what "ought" to be.  From my perspective, a woman coming in wearing a skirt, but some even slightly revealing top is AS distracting as some guy coming to church in some fancy suit - they're both just incredibly pretentious.  MODEST is something that covers the flesh, but is not pretentious or fancy.  Saying a woman is "cross-dressing" or wearing men's clothes by wearing some form of pants is just rubbish (I love this British word) - its not even debateble and anyone who says otherwise should not even be acknowledged unless it is to educate the ignorant. 
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2010, 02:42:46 AM »

There are certainly no female trousers in the God-fearing Zarist churches.
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2010, 02:49:03 AM »

If we all just wore togas, this wouldn't be an issue. Just sayin'.

Depends on the variety of toga Wink
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2010, 03:17:20 AM »

A-MEN! (to Abp. HILARION)

Saying a woman is "cross-dressing" or wearing men's clothes by wearing some form of pants is just rubbish (I love this British word) - its not even debateble and anyone who says otherwise should not even be acknowledged unless it is to educate the ignorant. 

My favourite British word for such claims is "codswallop".  laugh
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2010, 04:01:03 AM »

A-MEN! (to Abp. HILARION)

More to this:
I believe there are several different perspectives regarding dress.  On one end, there is the Russian 18th century perspective that says that women must wear full length clothing (dresses or skirts) and men long sleeve shirts and pants, with both looking rather peasant-like.  On the other end, there is the Protestant-"dress your Sunday best" attitude.  Well, both styles seem to have conflict with both modern dress and the actual intent of what "ought" to be.  From my perspective, a woman coming in wearing a skirt, but some even slightly revealing top is AS distracting as some guy coming to church in some fancy suit - they're both just incredibly pretentious.  MODEST is something that covers the flesh, but is not pretentious or fancy.  Saying a woman is "cross-dressing" or wearing men's clothes by wearing some form of pants is just rubbish (I love this British word) - its not even debateble and anyone who says otherwise should not even be acknowledged unless it is to educate the ignorant. 

Just to clarify so as not to be misunderstood: I have never advocated that women should not wear pants in Church. Read my posts and you will see that I never mentioned pants, but rather emphasized modesty. (Just don't want others to think you are talking about me here.)

Selam
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2010, 04:04:51 AM »

The title of this thread made me imagine His Holiness shielding trouser-clad women from the wrath of an angry traditionalist Russian Orthodox mob.
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2010, 04:21:54 AM »

The title of this thread made me imagine His Holiness shielding trouser-clad women from the wrath of an angry traditionalist Russian Orthodox mob.

That's some imagination you have, there!  laugh
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2010, 04:25:05 AM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam

I agree. And men should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible, too! In fact, why not have them put a bag over their heads in the process. I remember being in Church with my daughter once. The Liturgy had started and I was following along as one does. Daughter happened to turn around as a young Greek god glides into Church. Being the pious lady I am, I didn't notice. Tongue So daughter elbows me and with a jerk of her head in his direction draws my attention to the newly arrived "deity"!

Ok, ok... I repented!



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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2010, 04:25:56 AM »


Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam



Plenty of women where pants simply as a casual form of dress, not really having anything to do with fashion or seduction.

What is important is that we dress modestly and respectfully and that to some extent is dictated by the culture we live in. What is considered respectful in modern America may not have been respectful a hundred years ago and may not be in modern day Romania or Tanzania. Sensibilities change in time and place.

Good point!
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2010, 04:27:51 AM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam

Many women find a man dressed in a well-fitting suit with a white shirt and tie most alluring. Does this mean men should stop wearing such clothes to church for fear it may distract the ladies?

Don't forget that people are also distracted by the good looks of others of their same gender.
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2010, 04:30:53 AM »

I wish he was there with me when an ROC priest chewed me out for wearing shorts in his church  (I wasn't even "officially" attending the service, just dropped by to take some pictures of the church when they were open during a vigil service).

When I was in Greece I used to have a pair of pants in my bag, which I would put on when I passed a Church and go in (I went into any Church that was open).  I wasn't even crazy about my sons wearing shorts when they were younger.  When a Church is consecrated, it is set aside, and not like any other place.

I would think there would be more important ways of recognizing the other-worldly nature of the Church.
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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2010, 04:33:08 AM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam

Many women find a man dressed in a well-fitting suit with a white shirt and tie most alluring. Does this mean men should stop wearing such clothes to church for fear it may distract the ladies?

Don't forget that people are also distracted by the good looks of others of their same gender.

Ok, so it's burkas all round, then?  angel
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« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2010, 04:33:22 AM »


On the flip side I've seen girls/young women in skin tight jeans and t-shirts

Honestly, tight jeans and t-shirts is significantly more modest than the sorts of things I've seen in my local Greek parish.  Sad
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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2010, 04:33:49 AM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam

Many women find a man dressed in a well-fitting suit with a white shirt and tie most alluring. Does this mean men should stop wearing such clothes to church for fear it may distract the ladies?

Don't forget that people are also distracted by the good looks of others of their same gender.

Ok, so it's burkas all round, then?  angel

Or everybody could just chill out.  Wink
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« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2010, 04:35:34 AM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam

Many women find a man dressed in a well-fitting suit with a white shirt and tie most alluring. Does this mean men should stop wearing such clothes to church for fear it may distract the ladies?

Don't forget that people are also distracted by the good looks of others of their same gender.

Ok, so it's burkas all round, then?  angel

Or everybody could just chill out.  Wink

Well, that might be too much to hope for!
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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2010, 04:37:00 AM »

Men and women should come to Church to worship and pray, not to make a fashion statement. Women should dress in a manner that will draw as little attention to themselves as possible. As a man, I am at Church to gaze at the icons and focus on the Lord, not to ogle seductively dressed women. Persoanlly, the more covered a woman is and the looser her clothes are, the more I respect her and see her as a God-fearing woman. If women want to "look pretty" or "be sexy," there are plenty of places in this world for that. Church should not be one of them. Women: please consider the spritual welfare of your Christian brethren when you dress for Church.

Selam


   
Many women find a man dressed in a well-fitting suit with a white shirt and tie most alluring. Does this mean men should stop wearing such clothes to church for fear it may distract the ladies?

Yes, perhaps we (male and female) should all wear burkas?  angel

I anticipated such reactionary responses to my simple and plain comments. But I will indulge you guys anyway. If men are dressing specifically to draw attention to themselves or to look sexy, then that is not an appropriate approach in considering Church attire. Modesty and respect are of equal importance for both genders. Someone can always attack modesty by gradually inching the bar lower and lower. But I know what that game is all about, and I don't even pay it any mind. Whether you are a man or a woman, if you love God and love your fellow man then you will err on the side caution. You will adorn yourself in such a way as to give God the glory rather than yourself.

Selam

But if we are made in the image of God should we not reflect his glory through, for example, a designer suit that makes us look great?  Wink

Actually, the primary problem with that sort of thing would probably be in it drawing away from more important ways of expressing piety, such as a prayerful attitude or almsgiving.
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« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2010, 04:38:50 AM »


 or a man who is wearing shorts that are too high,

LOL. Guys wearing short-shorts in church? I've never seen this.
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« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2010, 04:39:46 AM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

SRSLY?
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« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2010, 04:41:14 AM »


You have to realize that some of these posters take a Jeffersonian approach to the Holy Scriptures; i.e. they desire to cut out any and all biblical texts that don't align with their own myopic worldview. Eventually, the only Scripture they will affirm as valid for today is the word "me."

Comparing people here to Jefferson? That's ridiculous.
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« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2010, 04:52:50 AM »


You have to realize that some of these posters take a Jeffersonian approach to the Holy Scriptures; i.e. they desire to cut out any and all biblical texts that don't align with their own myopic worldview. Eventually, the only Scripture they will affirm as valid for today is the word "me."

Comparing people here to Jefferson? That's ridiculous.

You're right. At least Jefferson believed in God; but we have atheists who feel the need to propagate their anti-God views on this forum.

Selam
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« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2010, 04:55:49 AM »

You're right. At least Jefferson believed in God; but we have atheists who feel the need to propagate their anti-God views on this forum.

Ok, now this is the second time that this type of claim has been made in the last few days. Apart from GiC, who isn't even posting right now, who here is an atheist? Isn't bearing false witness a sin or something? Something about it in the Ten Suggestions of the Old Testament?
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« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2010, 04:58:01 AM »


You have to realize that some of these posters take a Jeffersonian approach to the Holy Scriptures; i.e. they desire to cut out any and all biblical texts that don't align with their own myopic worldview. Eventually, the only Scripture they will affirm as valid for today is the word "me."

Comparing people here to Jefferson? That's ridiculous.

You're right. At least Jefferson believed in God; but we have atheists who feel the need to propagate their anti-God views on this forum.

Selam

I haven't seen anything of that sort in this thread.
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« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2010, 05:09:58 AM »


You have to realize that some of these posters take a Jeffersonian approach to the Holy Scriptures; i.e. they desire to cut out any and all biblical texts that don't align with their own myopic worldview. Eventually, the only Scripture they will affirm as valid for today is the word "me."

Comparing people here to Jefferson? That's ridiculous.

 

You're right. At least Jefferson believed in God; but we have atheists who feel the need to propagate their anti-God views on this forum.

Selam

I haven't seen anything of that sort in this thread.

No. But the Jeffersonian spirit is rampant throughout this thread, evidenced by the subjective opinions indicating that modesty is passe, culturally relavant, and superfluous in today's world. But then again, I'm sure some of these people consider this a compliment.

Selam
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« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2010, 05:14:57 AM »


You have to realize that some of these posters take a Jeffersonian approach to the Holy Scriptures; i.e. they desire to cut out any and all biblical texts that don't align with their own myopic worldview. Eventually, the only Scripture they will affirm as valid for today is the word "me."

Comparing people here to Jefferson? That's ridiculous.

 

You're right. At least Jefferson believed in God; but we have atheists who feel the need to propagate their anti-God views on this forum.

Selam

I haven't seen anything of that sort in this thread.

No. But the Jeffersonian spirit is rampant throughout this thread, evidenced by the subjective opinions indicating that modesty is passe, culturally relavant, and superfluous in today's world. But then again, I'm sure some of these people consider this a compliment.

Selam

I haven't seen any opinion indicating that.
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« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2010, 10:46:33 AM »


You have to realize that some of these posters take a Jeffersonian approach to the Holy Scriptures; i.e. they desire to cut out any and all biblical texts that don't align with their own myopic worldview. Eventually, the only Scripture they will affirm as valid for today is the word "me."

Comparing people here to Jefferson? That's ridiculous.

 

You're right. At least Jefferson believed in God; but we have atheists who feel the need to propagate their anti-God views on this forum.

Selam

I haven't seen anything of that sort in this thread.

No. But the Jeffersonian spirit is rampant throughout this thread, evidenced by the subjective opinions indicating that modesty is passe, culturally relavant, and superfluous in today's world. But then again, I'm sure some of these people consider this a compliment.

Selam

You're the one selectively lifting morality from the OT and NT and holding it up as timeless. If you want to be consistent, why not take all the "timeless" morality the OT has to offer.
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« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2010, 11:04:45 AM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

In Roman and Byzantine times, the basic dress for men and women was largely the same. I don't recall anyone in the Church raising a fuss about it.
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« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2010, 11:52:23 AM »

If we are going to take Deut 22:5 in solely a strict and literal sense, then we should be doing the same with verses 11 and 12:
“You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together. You shall make tassels on the corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself.” (SAAS)
The footnote in the OSB for v 5 reads in part “...a man should not try to be a woman, nor a woman a man.”  It’s less about the appearance of the clothing and more about the appearance of the person.
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« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2010, 11:54:09 AM »

If we are going to take Deut 22:5 in solely a strict and literal sense, then we should be doing the same with verses 11 and 12:
“You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together. You shall make tassels on the corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself.” (SAAS)
The footnote in the OSB for v 5 reads in part “...a man should not try to be a woman, nor a woman a man.”  It’s less about the appearance of the clothing and more about the appearance of the person.

And for those born as both men and women?
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« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2010, 12:08:35 PM »

If we are going to take Deut 22:5 in solely a strict and literal sense, then we should be doing the same with verses 11 and 12:
“You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together. You shall make tassels on the corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself.” (SAAS)
The footnote in the OSB for v 5 reads in part “...a man should not try to be a woman, nor a woman a man.”  It’s less about the appearance of the clothing and more about the appearance of the person.

And for those born as both men and women?
I’m not sure if you are referring to those who are born with both male and female anatomical characteristics or if you are referring to a “born gay” way of thinking. In either case, those are pastoral issues and need to be dealt with in confession and counselling, and not here.
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« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2010, 12:17:01 PM »

Modest dress is appropriate for church.

I'm glad the Arch-bishop has pointed out that there is nothing inherently immodest about a woman wearing pants.

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« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2010, 12:18:39 PM »

The footnote in the OSB for v 5 reads in part “...a man should not try to be a woman, nor a woman a man.”  It’s less about the appearance of the clothing and more about the appearance of the person.

And for those born as both men and women?
If they are both, then the above quotation can't really apply to them. Can it?
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« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2010, 12:22:22 PM »

The babushkas/yayas can only make so many pierogies/baklavas every Saturday to sell in order to pay for the enormous heating bill. PLEASE DRESS WARMLY for DL. If you freeze during DL, please wear pants. Your church may not have the funds to raise the thermostat setting."  Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2010, 12:49:27 PM »

^^LOL! You can always wrap a floor-length skirt around your trousers too-they keep them in a box at the back. I always marvel at the transformation that occurs sometimes. Women enter the church in jeans with nothing on their heads. After awhile I see them again and they are wearing a long skirt and a huge headscarf! All courtesy of the Box.
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« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2010, 01:05:33 PM »


Matthew 22:

 11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 14For many are called, but few are chosen.

From the above words, I didn't "read" wear your dumpiest, ugliest, most scrawny clothing, so as not to get yourself noticed by anybody else.

I believe in wearing my "best" clothes to church. 
Why bother looking "good" anywhere else, if not in church?  Shouldn't one look their best when they deem to enter the House of God?
Best, does not mean provocative to all people.

What if someone has a captivating smile or a pretty face?  Should we hide them, as well?  Weren't these given by God?
What of the singer in the choir with the extraordinary voice...that while singing hymns to God, does get her noticed and complimented.  Should she stop singing?

If I acquire a new article of clothing, I wear it for the first time to church, as well.  I have been known to wear both pants and skirts.  There is nothing immodest about pants, as long as they are not tight.

If a person dresses modestly, and does not set out to look alluring, or to tempt others....there should be nothing wrong with it.

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« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2010, 01:17:26 PM »


Matthew 22:

 11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 14For many are called, but few are chosen.

From the above words, I didn't "read" wear your dumpiest, ugliest, most scrawny clothing, so as not to get yourself noticed by anybody else.

Neither did I. In fact, I don't think it has anything to do with the physical garments you wear to church at all. You are taking a spiritual parable and giving it an earthly application that I doubt is intended. Christ is also referred to as the Bridegroom, but I hope nobody gives this an earthly, literal interpretation.

Quote
Why bother looking "good" anywhere else, if not in church?  Shouldn't one look their best when they deem to enter the House of God?

The quality of someone's wedding garment depends very little on his physical clothing; plenty of saints went around naked or in rags, but I suspect their "wedding garments" will look considerably nicer than mine.

Quote
Best, does not mean provocative to all people.

Yet many people don't distinguish between their "best" for church and their "best" for a party.
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« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2010, 01:24:33 PM »

Yes, I understand the deeper meaning behind "wedding garment". 

That just supports my view even more.  If one's true "garment" is clean and acceptable to God, then surely their outward appearance would reflect their inner modesty.

They go hand in hand.

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« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2010, 01:29:50 PM »

That just supports my view even more.  If one's true "garment" is clean and acceptable to God, then surely their outward appearance would reflect their inner modesty.

Perhaps, but the beauty of the kingdom of heaven is very far from the carnal beauty embodied in "nice" clothes. Many holy monks and nuns wear the same raggedy habits for years without washing them; do you suppose that they are somehow failing to express their inner beauty? Re: your point about choir singers- the point of the choir is to adorn the church and glorify God, and a beautiful voice can accomplish this. However, if a singer becomes so ostentatious that we pay attention to him and his virtuosity rather than the hymn, then we are no longer in the realm of beauty proper to worship.
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« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2010, 01:46:28 PM »

I have nothing but respect for all monks, nuns, clergy, hermits, etc.  I would never deem to judge any of them.

However, I am not a nun, nor do I live in a monastery.  Therefore, if I received a beautiful bright red coat for Christmas, you better believe I will wear it to Liturgy, even though the red color will get noticed.

I wear my nicest, newest clothes to church - none of which is immodest, tight or revealing.

Besides, I believe that our clergy (even mere Altar boys) wear lovely attire, trimmed in gold and sparklies! 
Makes them quite noticable.

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« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2010, 02:22:15 PM »

I have nothing but respect for all monks, nuns, clergy, hermits, etc.  I would never deem to judge any of them.

However, I am not a nun, nor do I live in a monastery.  Therefore, if I received a beautiful bright red coat for Christmas, you better believe I will wear it to Liturgy, even though the red color will get noticed.

I wear my nicest, newest clothes to church - none of which is immodest, tight or revealing.

Besides, I believe that our clergy (even mere Altar boys) wear lovely attire, trimmed in gold and sparklies! 
Makes them quite noticable.


I concur. It is also my observation over the years that many who profess that it is inappropriate to be noticed in Church by virtue of attire, singing voice or whatever really attain the opposite result by virtue of their behavior. Modesty should always rule; today's attire norm is not the norm of the 19th century, the 16th century, the 11th century or any other period in the past. 
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« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2010, 06:18:52 PM »

The problem is that our everyday and even formal styles of dress cloths change from era to era.  What would be considered casual dress 50 years ago would probably be seen as formal by today's standards.  There's nothing most of us can do about this since we all tend to be products of our times and the fashions attached to them (whether we like it or not).

When I was younger, in high school, I used to try and dress up very nice.  I would wear sports jackets and slacks most of the time.  Do you know what the other kids ended up thinking?  That I was a homosexual for taking such time to care about my appearance.  Considering that one of the main reasons I had for dressing up was to impress girls, it was disparaging for me to learn that this is what others were secretly thinking about me.  If I wanted to fit in and be like everybody else then I had to end up dressing like everybody else.

I definitely don't approve of people dressing in sexual provocative ways to church, but the clergy have to realize that we parishioners have to live and interact in the modern world as well. This includes embracing the fashions that prevail in that world least we face needless ridicule for not doing so.  I really wish that they would lighten up about this more.
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« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2010, 06:48:19 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

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« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2010, 06:53:09 PM »


I agree!
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« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2010, 06:53:35 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

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« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2010, 06:56:44 PM »

Quote
Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

I nearly choked on my dinner. Now that would be quite the sight!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Quote
I would wear sports jackets and slacks most of the time.  Do you know what the other kids ended up thinking?  That I was a homosexual for taking such time to care about my appearance. 


Wow, that certainly backfired on you too, Robb! Sorry, but this is but yet isn't funny! I am sure there must have been more than a few girls who secretly had crushes on you and that your efforts weren't totally in vain!
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« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2010, 06:59:29 PM »

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

I have no problem imagining some Aussie bloke showing up to a church in nothing but his skivvies.  You folks love your alcohol!
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« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2010, 07:03:13 PM »


Where would I be without you?


Probably somewhere doing something more useful than mocking me at every turn. Wink

Selam
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« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2010, 07:05:55 PM »

Quote
Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

Now that would be quite the sight!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2010, 07:09:22 PM »

I dress modestly wherever I go, so I don't see dressing for Church as being some separate issue. Sunday best? I don't really have anything like that and tend to dress for comfort. There once was a time when clothing was very important (too important) to me; it isn't anymore. I guess part of my theosis is overcoming pride in how I look; getting older has helped probably in that.  Wink I'm grateful for that; in retrospect I would have hated to have passed this life pondering an accessory list.

However, I have seen ridiculous lists of restrictions regarding the so-called Orthodox "dress code", and I think most people rightly intend to ignore them as being completely invasive - and even silly.

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« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2010, 07:10:49 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.



 laugh  laugh  laugh
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« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2010, 07:12:15 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam

Well, it's not that simple. The question has really become, "what constitutes modest dress". For some it's the burqa, while for others it's a pantsuit. Some see an ankle length dress as the only truly "modest" style for church, and others with convertitus have a whole range of "modest" styles to chose from.
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« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2010, 07:13:27 PM »

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

I have no problem imagining some Aussie bloke showing up to a church in nothing but his skivvies.  You folks love your alcohol!

My goodness - what generalisation!  laugh
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« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2010, 07:13:44 PM »


Where would I be without you?


Probably somewhere doing something more useful than mocking me at every turn. Wink
I can't help it. You're so mockable.
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« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2010, 07:18:51 PM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

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Yes
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« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2010, 07:32:48 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam

Well, it's not that simple. The question has really become, "what constitutes modest dress". For some it's the burqa, while for others it's a pantsuit. Some see an ankle length dress as the only truly "modest" style for church, and others with convertitus have a whole range of "modest" styles to chose from.

I agree with both of you. The problem is not with the principle of modesty, it is with what modesty is in any given culture and who defines it. Of course, certain attires are immodest per se (like the Man from Oz in his underpants) or even bordering on the obscene (if the Man of Oz sported thongs Shocked) or if a woman dressed up like a hooker. On the other side of the coin, if all the men wore suits and a few decide to wear only a dress shirt & pants, but no tie to show everybody how "modest" they are, it would also be wrong as this could cause unjustified pride.

In the United States of America, unlike Australia, there is a general understanding of what modest attire is: business or business casual attire for men and women both. In other words, do not dress as if you are going to the beach or a party. Ankle length dresses and head coverings may be an overreaction to miniskirts and hairdresser and make up artist enhanced hair and face.
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« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2010, 07:36:42 PM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

SRSLY?
Yes

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2010, 07:40:12 PM »

If we all just wore togas, this wouldn't be an issue. Just sayin'.

Depends on the variety of toga Wink

What? You don't think this kind of toga would work or something?  Wink
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« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2010, 07:41:50 PM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

SRSLY?
Yes

I love it: we now have another authority on the subject: the person who invented the stick figures for the bathroom! I think that Scottish men may take umbrage at restricting men to trousers.

In any case, how did the signage on the bathroom doors ever got into this discussion anyway? In Mexican restaurants, one occasionally sees Bulls and Cows; in English pubs, you may see a number of male types (pirates, gentlemen, etc.) and wenches. How would our esteemed bathroom door expert interpret those variations?
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« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2010, 07:47:14 PM »

Although I can see where you might want to have exceptions, and in many circumstances leniency might be a good policy, still, generally, I think that women should wear modest dresses to Church because according to:
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The fact that it is mentioned that it is an abomination for women to wear that which pertaineth to a man (and vice versa) means that the Lord has strong opinions on the issue.
Further, it is clear that trousers pertain to men's dress, because if you have to go to the toilet and you see a door with a human figure wearing trousers, you know that it is the men's restroom.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

SRSLY?
Yes

I love it: we now have another authority on the subject: the person who invented the stick figures for the bathroom! I think that Scottish men may take umbrage at restricting men to trousers.

In any case, how did the signage on the bathroom doors ever got into this discussion anyway? In Mexican restaurants, one occasionally sees Bulls and Cows; in English pubs, you may see a number of male types (pirates, gentlemen, etc.) and wenches. How would our esteemed bathroom door expert interpret those variations?

 Cheesy
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« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2010, 07:48:11 PM »

If we all just wore togas, this wouldn't be an issue. Just sayin'.

Depends on the variety of toga Wink

What? You don't think this kind of toga would work or something?  Wink

Haha. That would draw more attention than standard skimpy dress!
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« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2010, 07:52:42 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam



Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.



 laugh  laugh  laugh

Instead of the sarcasm, why not address why you agree or disagree with my statements above?

Selam
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« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2010, 07:55:12 PM »

Some years ago, clothes were my sin. When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, I read about a saint (can't remember her name for the life of me) who was a beautiful, weathly and sought-after woman. On being illuminated, she threw everthing she had been previously aside. The clothes, the wealth, the obsession with the way she looked - and took to wearing rags. The funny thing was, I immediately related to that woman. Things had happened in my life where circumstances had taken wealth from me and in consequence my obsession with clothing. I didn't want to think of clothing, makeup etc anymore, much like a recovering alcohol would avoid wine festivals, I suppose. I didn't want to step back on that roundabout. As long as I am dressed modestly, cleanly; that's all that matters to me.

It came as a shock to find such an emphasis on clothes within the Orthodox church. To be dragged back into worrying about what I was going to wear for Liturgy threatened to become a burden; one I wasn't willing to take on. And yet, if I had turned up to Liturgy in rags, as did the saint I speak of, would anyone have understood that my dealing with my obsession in this way was anything other than breaking the "dress code".  

Now, I know that it's important to be modest; but I think that "dress code" obsession within the Orthodox Church has other dangers. When I spoke to my priest about my personal issues with clothing, and that the list presented to me brought with it an emphasis on something that had been sin to me, something I was no longer willing to do, he said; "wear what you like, just be there". Sometimes that amounts to casual pants and a t-shirt and running shoes - those are my rags.
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« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2010, 08:04:54 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam



Well, it's not that simple. The question has really become, "what constitutes modest dress". For some it's the burqa, while for others it's a pantsuit. Some see an ankle length dress as the only truly "modest" style for church, and others with convertitus have a whole range of "modest" styles to chose from.

I agree with both of you. The problem is not with the principle of modesty, it is with what modesty is in any given culture and who defines it. Of course, certain attires are immodest per se (like the Man from Oz in his underpants) or even bordering on the obscene (if the Man of Oz sported thongs Shocked) or if a woman dressed up like a hooker. On the other side of the coin, if all the men wore suits and a few decide to wear only a dress shirt & pants, but no tie to show everybody how "modest" they are, it would also be wrong as this could cause unjustified pride.

In the United States of America, unlike Australia, there is a general understanding of what modest attire is: business or business casual attire for men and women both. In other words, do not dress as if you are going to the beach or a party. Ankle length dresses and head coverings may be an overreaction to miniskirts and hairdresser and make up artist enhanced hair and face.

Right. That's why I said that if we all consider our culture and our ecclesiastical contexts, and then try to err on the side of modesty when considering our Church attire, then most of these problems would be solved. The issue is really about our hearts. Are we trying to draw undue attention to ourselves by how we dress for Church, or are we dressing so as not to be a distraction or a stumbling block to our brothers and sisters? That's why I think it's simple. If one's thought process is, "I have a right to dress this way, and if a man lusts that's his problem," then I think that's an unChristian attitude. And on the other extreme, if one's thought process is, "I'm going to show everyone how spritiual I am by wearing a 'quasi-burka,'" then I also think that is a prideful and unChristian attitude. But if we all simply TRY to be as modest and respectful as possible, then I think most of these problems woudl be solved. Of course there will always be fundamentalists and extremists of both the licentious and conservative persuasion, and they will never be happy.

Selam
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« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2010, 08:09:43 PM »

Some years ago, clothes were my sin. When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, I read about a saint (can't remember her name for the life of me) who was a beautiful, weathly and sort-after woman. On being illuminated, she threw everthing she had been previously aside. The clothes, the wealth, the obsession with the way she looked - and took to wearing rags. The funny thing was, I immediately related to that woman. Things had happened in my life where circumstances had taken wealth from me and in consequence my obsession with clothing. I didn't want to think of clothing, makeup etc anymore, much like a recovering alcohol would avoid wine festivals, I suppose. I didn't want to step back on that roundabout. As long as I am dressed modestly, cleanly; that's all that matters to me.

It came as a shock to find such an emphasis on clothes within the Orthodox church. To be dragged back into worrying about what I was going to wear for Liturgy threatened to become a burden; one I wasn't willing to take on. And yet, if I had turned up to Liturgy in rags, as did the saint I speak of, would anyone have understood that my dealing with my obsession in this way was anything other than breaking the "dress code".  

Now, I know that it's important to be modest; but I think that "dress code" obsession within the Orthodox Church has other dangers. When I spoke to my priest about my personal issues with clothing, and that the list presented to me brought with it an emphasis on something that had been sin to me, something I was no longer willing to do, he said; "wear what you like, just be there". Sometimes that amounts to casual pants and a t-shirt and running shoes - those are my rags.

That's cool. Thanks for sharing. See, I don't see anything you said as being contradictory to the points I have been repeatedly making throughout this thread. I advocate no list of specific things that "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not" wear to Church. Just advocating an emphasis on modesty for both sexes, which you seem to have personally achieved.

Selam
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« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2010, 08:10:23 PM »

I don't know why this issue is so complicated and controversial for those of us who profess to be Orthodox. It's VERY SIMPLE: When dressing for Church, our main concern and first priority should be modesty. If men and women simply tried to be as modest and as respectful as possible when dressing for Church, then most of these problems would be solved. We would avoid the extremes of being provocatively clad or else of drawing undue attention to ourselves by dressing as monks or hermits. It's really not that complicated people.Roll Eyes

Selam



Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.



 laugh  laugh  laugh

Instead of the sarcasm, why not address why you agree or disagree with my statements above?

Selam

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
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« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2010, 08:19:40 PM »

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
"He" is a she, and she has met me, so I hope I haven't given her a horrible mental picture that will haunt her the rest of her days.
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« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2010, 08:29:05 PM »

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
"He" is a she, and she has met me, so I hope I haven't given her a horrible mental picture that will haunt her the rest of her days.

 laugh I'm going to need counselling, George!
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« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2010, 08:35:16 PM »

Instead of the sarcasm, why not address why you agree or disagree with my statements above?
To what end? Why should anyone comment on your post? Your post was made with an air of pontification of what you say Orthodox Christians must think and then you ended it with an emoticon rolling its eyes are our stupidity for not realising The TruthTM of your pronouncement.
Why would anyone bother?
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« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2010, 08:48:14 PM »

Some years ago, clothes were my sin. When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, I read about a saint (can't remember her name for the life of me) who was a beautiful, weathly and sort-after woman. On being illuminated, she threw everthing she had been previously aside. The clothes, the wealth, the obsession with the way she looked - and took to wearing rags. The funny thing was, I immediately related to that woman. Things had happened in my life where circumstances had taken wealth from me and in consequence my obsession with clothing. I didn't want to think of clothing, makeup etc anymore, much like a recovering alcohol would avoid wine festivals, I suppose. I didn't want to step back on that roundabout. As long as I am dressed modestly, cleanly; that's all that matters to me.

It came as a shock to find such an emphasis on clothes within the Orthodox church. To be dragged back into worrying about what I was going to wear for Liturgy threatened to become a burden; one I wasn't willing to take on. And yet, if I had turned up to Liturgy in rags, as did the saint I speak of, would anyone have understood that my dealing with my obsession in this way was anything other than breaking the "dress code".  

Now, I know that it's important to be modest; but I think that "dress code" obsession within the Orthodox Church has other dangers. When I spoke to my priest about my personal issues with clothing, and that the list presented to me brought with it an emphasis on something that had been sin to me, something I was no longer willing to do, he said; "wear what you like, just be there". Sometimes that amounts to casual pants and a t-shirt and running shoes - those are my rags.

That's cool. Thanks for sharing. See, I don't see anything you said as being contradictory to the points I have been repeatedly making throughout this thread. I advocate no list of specific things that "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not" wear to Church. Just advocating an emphasis on modesty for both sexes, which you seem to have personally achieved.

Selam

No, that's why my post isn't specifically addressed to you or anything you have said. I know you haven't suggested a "dress code", but there is one doing the rounds in Orthodox circles, one I fear could become an over-emphasis on appearance and ultimately resulting in an unhealthy emphasis on externals, rather than on individual needs. What confirms my fears is that I have seen this "dress code" used for the purposes of exclusion.
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« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2010, 08:49:04 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
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« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2010, 09:01:08 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.
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« Reply #92 on: January 11, 2010, 09:01:38 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!
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« Reply #93 on: January 11, 2010, 09:02:07 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


 laugh
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« Reply #94 on: January 11, 2010, 09:06:40 PM »

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
"He" is a she, and she has met me, so I hope I haven't given her a horrible mental picture that will haunt her the rest of her days.

Oh!

Riddikulus, I hope I haven't offended your femininity! Embarrassed
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« Reply #95 on: January 11, 2010, 09:08:38 PM »

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
"He" is a she, and she has met me, so I hope I haven't given her a horrible mental picture that will haunt her the rest of her days.

Oh!

Riddikulus, I hope I haven't offended your femininity! Embarrassed

 laugh Not at all!
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« Reply #96 on: January 11, 2010, 09:10:23 PM »


Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt.

Ditto.
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« Reply #97 on: January 11, 2010, 09:12:22 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked
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« Reply #98 on: January 11, 2010, 09:13:24 PM »

A couple of years back I was hosting two female Russian acquaintances in Helsinki. As I got up one morning to go to Uspensky Cathedral, they expressed interest in the Finnish Orthodox Church and felt bad that they had not been to a liturgy in a few years and were losing touch with Orthodoxy. But when I suggested they come along, they said, "Oh, we can't! We didn't pack any skirts." All their lives to that date they had watched babushkas chastise women for trying to enter a church wearing pants. Having been to their hometown regularly, I know this crowd, and the thing is, the priests generally don't mind if women wear pants, but it's the old women at the door who decide who gets to enter and who doesn't.

In the end, I just couldn't convince them that in the Finnish Orthodox Church, you won't see too many women wearing skirts, and there's no pressure on dressing in just the right way. Nonetheless, they were too afraid to come along with me. If rules on clothing are frightening willing Christians from coming to church and rededicating themselves to Christ, then a gentle push to "modesty" has gone too far.

FWIW, in the Romanian Orthodox Church, pants are fine in parish churches, and at monasteries it might be best you wear a skirt, but the monks and nuns are always thrilled to get visitors anyway and you'll always be welcome.
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« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2010, 09:15:05 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.
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« Reply #100 on: January 11, 2010, 09:15:36 PM »

I think he was just laughing at the idea of ozgeorge showing up to church in his underwear.  Wink
"He" is a she, and she has met me, so I hope I haven't given her a horrible mental picture that will haunt her the rest of her days.

Oh!

Riddikulus, I hope I haven't offended your femininity! Embarrassed

 laugh Not at all!

Good!  Smiley
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« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2010, 09:16:28 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam
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« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2010, 09:16:52 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.

Huh?  Huh
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« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2010, 09:20:36 PM »


If one's thought process is, "I have a right to dress this way, and if a man lusts that's his problem," then I think that's an unChristian attitude. And on the other extreme, if one's thought process is, "I'm going to show everyone how spritiual I am by wearing a 'quasi-burka,'" then I also think that is a prideful and unChristian attitude.

I tend to agree with you. We should take into consideration the sensitivities of our brothers and sisters in Christ and try to cater to what will not inhibit their spiritual experience; as such the first approach fails. And I agree that the second approach can be inclined to pride. Thus, trying to look respectable and modest is the proper middle way.

However, in contrast to your optimism about this, I must point out again that simply doing that sometimes isn't even enough, as there are numerous Pharisees about in the Church who would seek to impose their bigoted senses of what is pious and modest upon others, even when in actuality they are trying to be modest.
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« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2010, 09:22:29 PM »

at monasteries it might be best you wear a skirt
Especially if, like ours, they provide elasticised skirts to wear over pants. I'm sure they are deliberately hideous to make sure women choose their own skirt next time they visit.
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« Reply #105 on: January 11, 2010, 09:23:37 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam

as fitting for their own spiritual journey

edit: I feel I need to emphasis this because you have clearly ignored part of my post in order to accuse me of individualism and not being very Orthodox. Again, you have been Quick Draw McGraw without digesting what I have said. Gebre, I don't know about your spiritual journey, but mine happens within the Church and all that entails.
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« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2010, 09:25:45 PM »

at monasteries it might be best you wear a skirt
Especially if, like ours, they provide elasticised skirts to wear over pants. I'm sure they are deliberately hideous to make sure women choose their own skirt next time they visit.

I remembered your warning and bought a skirt on the way to visit you. Then, we didn't get to visit the monastery! Cry
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« Reply #107 on: January 11, 2010, 09:29:30 PM »


If one's thought process is, "I have a right to dress this way, and if a man lusts that's his problem," then I think that's an unChristian attitude. And on the other extreme, if one's thought process is, "I'm going to show everyone how spritiual I am by wearing a 'quasi-burka,'" then I also think that is a prideful and unChristian attitude.

I tend to agree with you. We should take into consideration the sensitivities of our brothers and sisters in Christ and try to cater to what will not inhibit their spiritual experience; as such the first approach fails. And I agree that the second approach can be inclined to pride. Thus, trying to look respectable and modest is the proper middle way.

However, in contrast to your optimism about this, I must point out again that simply doing that sometimes isn't even enough, as there are numerous Pharisees about in the Church who would seek to impose their bigoted senses of what is pious and modest upon others, even when in actuality they are trying to be modest.

Agreed. That's why I stated earlier that it will solve many of these problems, but not all. The fundamentalists and Pharisees will never be happy. And they exist in both extremes of licentiousness and conservativism.

Selam
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« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2010, 11:12:10 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.

Huh?  Huh

I'm guessing that ozgeorge is either referring to my rather uncomely looks, or my rather generous body proportions. Wink
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« Reply #109 on: January 11, 2010, 11:20:32 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.

Huh?  Huh

I'm guessing that ozgeorge is either referring to my rather uncomely looks, or my rather generous body proportions. Wink

Wow, I'm getting homoerotic vibes again!  Shocked
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« Reply #110 on: January 11, 2010, 11:21:48 PM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.

Huh?  Huh

I'm guessing that ozgeorge is either referring to my rather uncomely looks, or my rather generous body proportions. Wink

Wow, I'm getting homoerotic vibes again!  Shocked

LOL. Get your mind out of the gutter. I was talking about my fat gut weight issues (about 225 lbs. at 5'9")
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« Reply #111 on: January 12, 2010, 12:21:20 AM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam

as fitting for their own spiritual journey

edit: I feel I need to emphasis this because you have clearly ignored part of my post in order to accuse me of individualism and not being very Orthodox. Again, you have been Quick Draw McGraw without digesting what I have said. Gebre, I don't know about your spiritual journey, but mine happens within the Church and all that entails.

That's why I began by saying that I agree with you to an extent. So I did digest your statement and obviously found agreement with some of it. But I also pointed out what I perceived to be a spirit of individualism. I subsequently made a critique of individualism in general, and not a criticism of you personally. The spirit of this age (which is heavily individualistic) is an equal opportunity assailer. We can all become its victims if we are not careful. I was not attacking you, but rather pointing out the problem with individualism. I apologize if I came across like I was attacking you personally.

Selam
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« Reply #112 on: January 12, 2010, 01:23:36 AM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam

as fitting for their own spiritual journey

edit: I feel I need to emphasis this because you have clearly ignored part of my post in order to accuse me of individualism and not being very Orthodox. Again, you have been Quick Draw McGraw without digesting what I have said. Gebre, I don't know about your spiritual journey, but mine happens within the Church and all that entails.

That's why I began by saying that I agree with you to an extent. So I did digest your statement and obviously found agreement with some of it. But I also pointed out what I perceived to be a spirit of individualism. I subsequently made a critique of individualism in general, and not a criticism of you personally. The spirit of this age (which is heavily individualistic) is an equal opportunity assailer. We can all become its victims if we are not careful. I was not attacking you, but rather pointing out the problem with individualism. I apologize if I came across like I was attacking you personally.

Selam

Your comments were very personal, in fact they are a rebuttal of what you perceive to be my spirit of individualism and not very Orthodox ideology - otherwise there was no reason to comment. I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox, is what you said. This prompted you to then express our need for the Church, as if I had excluded it, which of course you seem to think I had because to you my statement had resonated with a spirit of individualism. You then proceeded with a caricature of the Church that my so-called "spirit of individualism" might produce; self-absorbed, scantilly-clad personalities steeped in the mire of a "self-absorbed morass of individualism".  I'm not sure if it can get more personal than that, especially as you hadn't taken the trouble to clarify that you were correct in what you assumed.

But where did I suggest that one's own spiritual journey was the Lone Ranger experience, galloping off into the sunset of moral decay and egotistical shenanigans, you describe? It seems more likely from where I sit that you simply leapt to an unwarranted conclusion.
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« Reply #113 on: January 12, 2010, 01:25:06 AM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink
You need a pair of Calvin Kleins. The t shirt needs to be midrift and the black pants should hang well below the CK label on the elastic.


Now you're starting to sound kind of homoerotic.  Shocked

You obviously haven't see a photo of Asteriktos.

Huh?  Huh

I'm guessing that ozgeorge is either referring to my rather uncomely looks, or my rather generous body proportions. Wink

Wow, I'm getting homoerotic vibes again!  Shocked

LOL. Get your mind out of the gutter. I was talking about my fat gut weight issues (about 225 lbs. at 5'9")

Oh, oops.

Well, given how seemingly "pure" people on these forums are, it's pretty hard not to be gutter-minded in comparison.  Undecided
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« Reply #114 on: January 12, 2010, 03:35:56 AM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam

as fitting for their own spiritual journey

edit: I feel I need to emphasis this because you have clearly ignored part of my post in order to accuse me of individualism and not being very Orthodox. Again, you have been Quick Draw McGraw without digesting what I have said. Gebre, I don't know about your spiritual journey, but mine happens within the Church and all that entails.

That's why I began by saying that I agree with you to an extent. So I did digest your statement and obviously found agreement with some of it. But I also pointed out what I perceived to be a spirit of individualism. I subsequently made a critique of individualism in general, and not a criticism of you personally. The spirit of this age (which is heavily individualistic) is an equal opportunity assailer. We can all become its victims if we are not careful. I was not attacking you, but rather pointing out the problem with individualism. I apologize if I came across like I was attacking you personally.

Selam

Your comments were very personal, in fact they are a rebuttal of what you perceive to be my spirit of individualism and not very Orthodox ideology - otherwise there was no reason to comment. I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox, is what you said. This prompted you to then express our need for the Church, as if I had excluded it, which of course you seem to think I had because to you my statement had resonated with a spirit of individualism. You then proceeded with a caricature of the Church that my so-called "spirit of individualism" might produce; self-absorbed, scantilly-clad personalities steeped in the mire of a "self-absorbed morass of individualism".  I'm not sure if it can get more personal than that, especially as you hadn't taken the trouble to clarify that you were correct in what you assumed.

But where did I suggest that one's own spiritual journey was the Lone Ranger experience, galloping off into the sunset of moral decay and egotistical shenanigans, you describe? It seems more likely from where I sit that you simply leapt to an unwarranted conclusion.

Wow. I'm not sure how you got all that from my statement. But again, I meant no offense. Again I apologize if it seemed like I was personally attacking you. I encourage you to revisit my statement and compare how many times I used the word "we" as opposed to the word "you." (I have highlighted the statement in question above in red, and emphasized the words "we" in bold type.)

Selam
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« Reply #115 on: January 12, 2010, 05:09:05 AM »

I can see the good in both the "pious, humble look" view, and the "wear your Sunday best" view. Just my own approach, but I try/tried to sort of wear something in between, with black pants, and either a dark (usually black) short sleeved t shirt, or a black long sleeved dress shirt. Not that I have anything to show off to begin with--unless someone takes an abnormal fancy to the "protective padding" on top of my abs of steel. Wink

 laugh Yes, I can see merit in both approaches, too. And I think it should be up to the individual to decide what they wear to Church as fitting for their own spiritual journey, rather than having some control list shoved under one's nose!

While I tend to agree with you to an extent, I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox. We need the guidance of the Church, and that may (and does) include certain guidelines about how we should dress. Would the Church allow us to routinely show up naked? I don't think so. It isn't all about "me." It's not about what we think is best for "our own spiritual journey." It's about our neighbor, our brethren, our fellow man. How do our actions and words affect them? How does our clothing affect them? That's the point. But the spirit of the age tries to dictate otherwise, and as Christians we too easily get mired in this self-absorbed morass of individualism. "It's up to me!" Well, yes and no. We all have free will. We can do what we want or we can do what is right. And what is right is that which is best for others. And the beauty is that when we do what is best for others we are actually doing what is best for ourselves. Smiley


Selam

as fitting for their own spiritual journey

edit: I feel I need to emphasis this because you have clearly ignored part of my post in order to accuse me of individualism and not being very Orthodox. Again, you have been Quick Draw McGraw without digesting what I have said. Gebre, I don't know about your spiritual journey, but mine happens within the Church and all that entails.

That's why I began by saying that I agree with you to an extent. So I did digest your statement and obviously found agreement with some of it. But I also pointed out what I perceived to be a spirit of individualism. I subsequently made a critique of individualism in general, and not a criticism of you personally. The spirit of this age (which is heavily individualistic) is an equal opportunity assailer. We can all become its victims if we are not careful. I was not attacking you, but rather pointing out the problem with individualism. I apologize if I came across like I was attacking you personally.

Selam

Your comments were very personal, in fact they are a rebuttal of what you perceive to be my spirit of individualism and not very Orthodox ideology - otherwise there was no reason to comment. I must point out that your statement resonates with a spirit of individualism that I don't think is very Orthodox, is what you said. This prompted you to then express our need for the Church, as if I had excluded it, which of course you seem to think I had because to you my statement had resonated with a spirit of individualism. You then proceeded with a caricature of the Church that my so-called "spirit of individualism" might produce; self-absorbed, scantilly-clad personalities steeped in the mire of a "self-absorbed morass of individualism".  I'm not sure if it can get more personal than that, especially as you hadn't taken the trouble to clarify that you were correct in what you assumed.

But where did I suggest that one's own spiritual journey was the Lone Ranger experience, galloping off into the sunset of moral decay and egotistical shenanigans, you describe? It seems more likely from where I sit that you simply leapt to an unwarranted conclusion.

Wow. I'm not sure how you got all that from my statement. But again, I meant no offense. Again I apologize if it seemed like I was personally attacking you. I encourage you to revisit my statement and compare how many times I used the word "we" as opposed to the word "you." (I have highlighted the statement in question above in red, and emphasized the words "we" in bold type.)

Selam

Ok, Gebre.
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« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2010, 11:42:43 AM »

Some years ago, clothes were my sin. When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy, I read about a saint (can't remember her name for the life of me) who was a beautiful, weathly and sort-after woman. On being illuminated, she threw everthing she had been previously aside. The clothes, the wealth, the obsession with the way she looked - and took to wearing rags. The funny thing was, I immediately related to that woman. Things had happened in my life where circumstances had taken wealth from me and in consequence my obsession with clothing. I didn't want to think of clothing, makeup etc anymore, much like a recovering alcohol would avoid wine festivals, I suppose. I didn't want to step back on that roundabout. As long as I am dressed modestly, cleanly; that's all that matters to me.

It came as a shock to find such an emphasis on clothes within the Orthodox church. To be dragged back into worrying about what I was going to wear for Liturgy threatened to become a burden; one I wasn't willing to take on. And yet, if I had turned up to Liturgy in rags, as did the saint I speak of, would anyone have understood that my dealing with my obsession in this way was anything other than breaking the "dress code".  

Now, I know that it's important to be modest; but I think that "dress code" obsession within the Orthodox Church has other dangers. When I spoke to my priest about my personal issues with clothing, and that the list presented to me brought with it an emphasis on something that had been sin to me, something I was no longer willing to do, he said; "wear what you like, just be there". Sometimes that amounts to casual pants and a t-shirt and running shoes - those are my rags.

That's cool. Thanks for sharing. See, I don't see anything you said as being contradictory to the points I have been repeatedly making throughout this thread. I advocate no list of specific things that "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not" wear to Church. Just advocating an emphasis on modesty for both sexes, which you seem to have personally achieved.

Selam

No, that's why my post isn't specifically addressed to you or anything you have said. I know you haven't suggested a "dress code", but there is one doing the rounds in Orthodox circles, one I fear could become an over-emphasis on appearance and ultimately resulting in an unhealthy emphasis on externals, rather than on individual needs. What confirms my fears is that I have seen this "dress code" used for the purposes of exclusion.

What you are reporting is horribly sad news. Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #117 on: January 12, 2010, 11:46:25 AM »

Gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was going to attend Liturgy in my Calvin Klein underpants until I read this....Where would I be without you.

I have no problem imagining some Aussie bloke showing up to a church in nothing but his skivvies.  You folks love your alcohol!

I had a similar thought, with the addendum of the particular Aussie just smiling and nodding a "G'day!" to anyone who looked at him funny for being in church like that! Wink
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« Reply #118 on: January 12, 2010, 12:27:11 PM »

I tried this on my mother when I was a teenager (when dinosaurs roamed the earth), telling her that God didn't care about what clothes we wore.
"You're right," she said, "But it's not about God. It's about you."

Personally I don't care what people wear to church - I'm not the fashion police, and my personal style tends toward elderly hippie, with an emphasis on comfort, anyway.

(FWIW, and as food for thought: my husband is a job developer and counselor working primarily with ex-offenders, the homeless and other people with significant employment challenges. One of the most important and useful classes he teaches is how to dress. His thoughts on this thread,"If you would dress up for a job interview, or for a formal occasion, or for a friend's wedding, and you dress casually to go to church and worship God, then maybe it would be useful to spend a little time thinking about why.")
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« Reply #119 on: January 14, 2010, 02:32:37 AM »

Own lots of cats!  All of your clothing will soon appear to be cashmere.  Grin

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« Reply #120 on: January 14, 2010, 09:16:08 AM »

Cool. Trousers are no longer a fashion scandal anyway. After all, men used to wear skirts in Greece for more than a century, ha!

One of my friends was recently not allowed to enter a women's monastery though because she was wearing trousers...
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« Reply #121 on: January 14, 2010, 06:05:54 PM »


After all, men used to wear skirts in Greece for more than a century, ha!

Are you referring to the fustanella?
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« Reply #122 on: January 14, 2010, 07:00:31 PM »


After all, men used to wear skirts in Greece for more than a century, ha!

Are you referring to the fustanella?
The "foustanella" is a skirt worn by Christian men and a "fousta" is a skirt worn by Christian women.
They're all skirts.
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« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2010, 05:09:08 PM »

We should not scold anyone for how they are dressed when they com to church. If it bothers us then that means we aren't praying hard enough at church. We don't know what the person is going through and maybe that's the only clothes they have is what they are wearing. However, I do feel that Orthodox Christians should make it a point to dress modestly in church so we aren't attracting attention to ourselves.
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« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2010, 05:33:16 PM »


The above points are correct. 

If we focus on our own prayers, we won't notice the girl in jeans next to us.  I believe in dressing modestly and wearing your "best" to Liturgy.

I wear pants to church more often than not.  It gets cold here...and the freezing wind whipping up your legs is rather unpleasant...so, I started wearing pants....and I liked it.

These days you will seldom see me in a skirt.  Besides, one might say that loose fitting pants are even more modest than a skirt....showing off legs and ankles!   Wink

Having said all that...there have been a few instances where I felt like telling a couple of women they needed to think about what they wore to church.  One lady showed up in summer with a "see through" white gossamer blouse.  It had long sleeves, and buttoned up the front.  It wasn't tight, at all.  However, it was completely see-through...and all you saw was her skin and her bra.  It was rather distracting as she placed herself up front and center...and every time you would look up...there she was.

Another lady came in wearing a zipped up jacket.  When she took her "place", the logo on the back sparkled really pretty.  It was all silver sequins on a hot pink satin waist length jacket.  All of this would be fine...and I simply think she didn't know what her "logo" actually suggested.  It said "Private Dancer".    Shocked


 
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« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2010, 05:43:27 PM »


After all, men used to wear skirts in Greece for more than a century, ha!

Are you referring to the fustanella?
The "foustanella" is a skirt worn by Christian men and a "fousta" is a skirt worn by Christian women.
They're all skirts.

As is the Scottish kilt, which I wore exclusively for darn near two years.  Smiley

I still break it out every now and then, but have yet to wear it to church.  One of our other parishoners is also of Scottish descent and wore his on St. Andrew's day (patron saint of Scotland and also of our parish) but he served behind the iconostasis and was therefore wearing a cassock the entire time.  I didn't notice his attire until coffee hour and instantly wished I wore one of mine.

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« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2010, 05:48:29 PM »

However, is it too hard for us Orthodox that know better to go out of our way and dress modestly and provide an example to others in church......
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« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2010, 05:57:56 PM »

Quote

Another lady came in wearing a zipped up jacket.  When she took her "place", the logo on the back sparkled really pretty.  It was all silver sequins on a hot pink satin waist length jacket.  All of this would be fine...and I simply think she didn't know what her "logo" actually suggested.  It said "Private Dancer".    Shocked

LOL. The worst I've seen so far (as far as logos/writing on clothing is concerned) was a young Russian immigrant woman who was wearing a skin tight top (but high-necked and longsleeved) with a two word expression containing the "f" word. She was standing right in front of me in church and I couldn't believe my eyes that this was for real...It could be that she simply had no clue as to what she was wearing, I'm not sure though...


 
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« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2010, 06:29:27 PM »


The above points are correct. 

If we focus on our own prayers, we won't notice the girl in jeans next to us.  I believe in dressing modestly and wearing your "best" to Liturgy.

I wear pants to church more often than not.  It gets cold here...and the freezing wind whipping up your legs is rather unpleasant...so, I started wearing pants....and I liked it.

These days you will seldom see me in a skirt.  Besides, one might say that loose fitting pants are even more modest than a skirt....showing off legs and ankles!   Wink

Having said all that...there have been a few instances where I felt like telling a couple of women they needed to think about what they wore to church.  One lady showed up in summer with a "see through" white gossamer blouse.  It had long sleeves, and buttoned up the front.  It wasn't tight, at all.  However, it was completely see-through...and all you saw was her skin and her bra.  It was rather distracting as she placed herself up front and center...and every time you would look up...there she was.

Another lady came in wearing a zipped up jacket.  When she took her "place", the logo on the back sparkled really pretty.  It was all silver sequins on a hot pink satin waist length jacket.  All of this would be fine...and I simply think she didn't know what her "logo" actually suggested.  It said "Private Dancer".    Shocked


 

Just a practical suggestion: wear pants underneath your dress. That's what I have my daughter do. It's comfortable and modest.

Selam
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« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2010, 06:34:02 PM »

Quote

Another lady came in wearing a zipped up jacket.  When she took her "place", the logo on the back sparkled really pretty.  It was all silver sequins on a hot pink satin waist length jacket.  All of this would be fine...and I simply think she didn't know what her "logo" actually suggested.  It said "Private Dancer".    Shocked

LOL. The worst I've seen so far (as far as logos/writing on clothing is concerned) was a young Russian immigrant woman who was wearing a skin tight top (but high-necked and longsleeved) with a two word expression containing the "f" word. She was standing right in front of me in church and I couldn't believe my eyes that this was for real...It could be that she simply had no clue as to what she was wearing, I'm not sure though...



It is not beyond possibility that satan's minions deliberately come to Church to distract the God-fearing from their prayers.

I think men should confront other men who are dressed immodestly, and women should confront women who are dressing immodestly. Sometimes we can be so concerned about not offending one individual that we allow the entire Church to be offended.

Selam
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« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2010, 06:45:08 PM »


After all, men used to wear skirts in Greece for more than a century, ha!

Are you referring to the fustanella?
The "foustanella" is a skirt worn by Christian men and a "fousta" is a skirt worn by Christian women.
They're all skirts.

As is the Scottish kilt, which I wore exclusively for darn near two years.  Smiley

I still break it out every now and then, but have yet to wear it to church.  One of our other parishoners is also of Scottish descent and wore his on St. Andrew's day (patron saint of Scotland and also of our parish) but he served behind the iconostasis and was therefore wearing a cassock the entire time.  I didn't notice his attire until coffee hour and instantly wished I wore one of mine.

True Scotsman?  Wink
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« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2010, 07:19:17 PM »

I recently attended an Orthodox wedding at the local Russian church. The groom was of Scottish ancestry, and he and his three groomsmen were in full traditional dress - kilt, tartan sash, brooch, old-style white shirt with the frilly cuffs, the lot. Magnificent, and completely manly.
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« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2010, 07:29:26 PM »

I wear pants to church more often than not.  It gets cold here...and the freezing wind whipping up your legs is rather unpleasant...so, I started wearing pants....and I liked it.

I had that problem, until I discovered stockings.  Wink
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« Reply #133 on: January 19, 2010, 02:15:53 AM »

I'm all for freedom to wear what one wants to church (in moderation of course).  However, I do feel that women, more then men, should be more selective about the types of outfits that they choose to dress up in.  Remember that men have a stronger sex drive then women and therefore have trouble controlling their thoughts and feelings when exposed to something that they view as arousing.  I can tell you that their are plenty of times when I'm in church minding my own business and get distracted from prayer and paying attention by some scantly clad women in the next pew.  

 Women should have a right to dress as they see fit but they should also remember that men also have a right to go to church and pray without being either distracted or aroused by them.
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« Reply #134 on: January 19, 2010, 11:17:05 AM »

I totally agree church is not the place to express your individuality, social class, sexuality, etc. I think pants work as well as or better than skirts. The sexy look is really a problem sometimes. At my husband's parish, the girls are so obviously going clubbing after the Easter service. Leather mini-skirt and thigh boots? Really? I feel so bad for guys.
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« Reply #135 on: January 19, 2010, 11:59:36 AM »

Quote
I totally agree church is not the place to express your individuality, social class, sexuality, etc. I think pants work as well as or better than skirts. The sexy look is really a problem sometimes. At my husband's parish, the girls are so obviously going clubbing after the Easter service. Leather mini-skirt and thigh boots? Really? I feel so bad for guys.

 
 
Wouldn't it be even more effective if people were taught to dress modestly ALL the time-not just when they go to church? This double standard seems so bewildering to me. Aren't we always in God's presence-not just when we're in church-and shouldn't we as women always be careful that we are not dressing to excite men's lust? Beyond Christian duty, isn't it also a matter of good taste and proper upbringing not to wear vulgar clothing?
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« Reply #136 on: January 19, 2010, 02:05:00 PM »

Quote
I totally agree church is not the place to express your individuality, social class, sexuality, etc. I think pants work as well as or better than skirts. The sexy look is really a problem sometimes. At my husband's parish, the girls are so obviously going clubbing after the Easter service. Leather mini-skirt and thigh boots? Really? I feel so bad for guys.

 
 
Wouldn't it be even more effective if people were taught to dress modestly ALL the time-not just when they go to church? This double standard seems so bewildering to me. Aren't we always in God's presence-not just when we're in church-and shouldn't we as women always be careful that we are not dressing to excite men's lust? Beyond Christian duty, isn't it also a matter of good taste and proper upbringing not to wear vulgar clothing?

Amen!

(where's the "standing up and cheering" smiley?)
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« Reply #137 on: January 19, 2010, 04:32:53 PM »

 
 
Wouldn't it be even more effective if people were taught to dress modestly ALL the time-not just when they go to church? This double standard seems so bewildering to me. Aren't we always in God's presence-not just when we're in church-and shouldn't we as women always be careful that we are not dressing to excite men's lust? Beyond Christian duty, isn't it also a matter of good taste and proper upbringing not to wear vulgar clothing?
[/quote]

Well said Rosehip and absolutely right.  Not to change the subject, but our parish had a family that was coming to church for a while with goth teens, dad in a nice kilt (a Utili-Kilt, with no loud pattern) and both Dad and Mom tatooed and pierced.  They were the nicest family and I'm sad they don't still attend.  Our parish isn't too overly stuffy, but I thought we'd finally broken into the "alternative' church crowd.  Unusual fashions/piercings/tatoos don't bother me at all; I find that totally acceptable as opposed to the hoochie mama look I see on so many women.   Tasteful artistic expression is completely different from sexual seductivenes, which is why I want to roll my eyes at women in church with tight blue jeans, 4" heels and scarves.  And yet again, it's not up to me to police people at the door.  If someone's clothing is a continuous temptation, I feel it's best if the priest has a quiet talk with them.  What good will it serve for disgruntled parishioners to confront them?  It only breeds more discontent.
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« Reply #138 on: January 19, 2010, 05:02:31 PM »

I have the impression that most of you do not realise what the real problem is. It's not about modest vs. flamboyant (I hope I've used the proper word) clothing at all.

The problem is that in the Old World (I know about Eastern part of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia and Romania) trousers are considered not to be the adequate clothing for women to go to a Church. Not the shorts that undercover half of the buttocks, but the ancle-lenghted and modest trousers only. Babushkas  that do not wear trousers at all (and some Priest and other people also) tend to hiss ad the female parishioners that go to a Church in trousers and sometimes ask them to leave the Church. According tho them any skirt (including the miniskirts) or dress is better that trousers.

In some Monasteries skirts are obligatory for females in they want to visit them and if they are in trousers they are lent the skirts from the Monastery. There are some skirts for that reason. On the other had women in even very short skirts are not.
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« Reply #139 on: January 19, 2010, 09:14:43 PM »

I have the impression that most of you do not realise what the real problem is. It's not about modest vs. flamboyant (I hope I've used the proper word) clothing at all.

Yes, Mike, I got the same impression several pages ago.  Wink The issue is trousers on a woman.

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« Reply #140 on: January 19, 2010, 11:00:47 PM »

I wish he was there with me when an ROC priest chewed me out for wearing shorts in his church  (I wasn't even "officially" attending the service, just dropped by to take some pictures of the church when they were open during a vigil service).
I see that a lot in Anglo-RC Churches.Not so much in Hispanic RC Churches. What did you say to the priest?
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« Reply #141 on: January 19, 2010, 11:16:25 PM »

I have the impression that most of you do not realise what the real problem is. It's not about modest vs. flamboyant (I hope I've used the proper word) clothing at all.

The problem is that in the Old World (I know about Eastern part of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia and Romania) trousers are considered not to be the adequate clothing for women to go to a Church. Not the shorts that undercover half of the buttocks, but the ancle-lenghted and modest trousers only. Babushkas  that do not wear trousers at all (and some Priest and other people also) tend to hiss ad the female parishioners that go to a Church in trousers and sometimes ask them to leave the Church. According tho them any skirt (including the miniskirts) or dress is better that trousers.

In some Monasteries skirts are obligatory for females in they want to visit them and if they are in trousers they are lent the skirts from the Monastery. There are some skirts for that reason. On the other had women in even very short skirts are not.

It's pretty much the same at my parish in North America. We have boxes of long skirts for those who show up in pants. I think this is very nice, because this way anyone can pop in at the spur of the moment, and yet there are skirts available to wear if necessary. I don't agree though, that miniskirts are more modest than pants. I've pretty much adopted the habit of always wearing skirts or dresses on a daily basis, this simplifies matters a great deal. In the winter one can wear warm stockings and boots. One time I did walk in without a headscarf on my head and I was quite sternly rebuked by a woman in her thirties!

But I do think Bishop Ilarion has a point, that it's better to treat people with love and encouragement when they do actually show up at church, rather than turning them off it altogether by making them feel inferior due to their clothing.
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« Reply #142 on: January 19, 2010, 11:46:46 PM »

I have the impression that most of you do not realise what the real problem is. It's not about modest vs. flamboyant (I hope I've used the proper word) clothing at all.

The problem is that in the Old World (I know about Eastern part of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia and Romania) trousers are considered not to be the adequate clothing for women to go to a Church. Not the shorts that undercover half of the buttocks, but the ancle-lenghted and modest trousers only. Babushkas  that do not wear trousers at all (and some Priest and other people also) tend to hiss ad the female parishioners that go to a Church in trousers and sometimes ask them to leave the Church. According tho them any skirt (including the miniskirts) or dress is better that trousers.

In some Monasteries skirts are obligatory for females in they want to visit them and if they are in trousers they are lent the skirts from the Monastery. There are some skirts for that reason. On the other had women in even very short skirts are not.

It's pretty much the same at my parish in North America. We have boxes of long skirts for those who show up in pants. I think this is very nice, because this way anyone can pop in at the spur of the moment, and yet there are skirts available to wear if necessary. I don't agree though, that miniskirts are more modest than pants. I've pretty much adopted the habit of always wearing skirts or dresses on a daily basis, this simplifies matters a great deal. In the winter one can wear warm stockings and boots. One time I did walk in without a headscarf on my head and I was quite sternly rebuked by a woman in her thirties!

But I do think Bishop Ilarion has a point, that it's better to treat people with love and encouragement when they do actually show up at church, rather than turning them off it altogether by making them feel inferior due to their clothing.

Good words Rosehip. Smiley

Selam
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« Reply #143 on: January 20, 2010, 01:21:18 AM »

LOL. Get your mind out of the gutter. I was talking about my fat gut weight issues (about 225 lbs. at 5'9")

Wow!  I'm 5'9" and 225 is a long term goal for me Shocked

On the subject:  One thing I admire from the Ethiopian Church is the uniformity in dress in their liturgical services, where everyone is all in white.  Perhaps, if churches have issues with modesty and becomes a major problem, we can look towards something like that.

Why not try to develop uniformity?  If not though, there's another solution.  We Copts tend to encourage our congregation to close their eyes when they pray.  That helps me a lot, and yes, I confess the temptation is sometimes great, since for most of my life in the Church, I would stand with the singers, readers, and subdeacons, and not with the congregants, and never really looked behind me to see what everyone looked like.  But days when I do stand with the congregants, the more back of the church I stood, the more I was distracted, not just by what I see, but also by an increased noise level too.

This whole idea of uniformity reminds me of an Egyptian proverb that we used to bother our grandmother who didn't like our heart attack breakfast mixes:  Eat whatever you like, but dress like everyone around you.
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« Reply #144 on: January 20, 2010, 06:05:37 PM »

I wish he was there with me when an ROC priest chewed me out for wearing shorts in his church  (I wasn't even "officially" attending the service, just dropped by to take some pictures of the church when they were open during a vigil service).
I see that a lot in Anglo-RC Churches.Not so much in Hispanic RC Churches. What did you say to the priest?

I said "sorry".  I don't judge him for his response to me.  The thing that really irked me though was that almost all the men (the few that were there) were dressed even more casual then I was.  I saw both young and old dressed in shorts and even one man in a muscle shirt.  I was dressed like the rest of the male parishioner's (but, for all I know the priest could have also chewed them out too).
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« Reply #145 on: January 20, 2010, 06:09:04 PM »

I have the impression that most of you do not realise what the real problem is. It's not about modest vs. flamboyant (I hope I've used the proper word) clothing at all.

The problem is that in the Old World (I know about Eastern part of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia and Romania) trousers are considered not to be the adequate clothing for women to go to a Church. Not the shorts that undercover half of the buttocks, but the ancle-lenghted and modest trousers only. Babushkas  that do not wear trousers at all (and some Priest and other people also) tend to hiss ad the female parishioners that go to a Church in trousers and sometimes ask them to leave the Church. According tho them any skirt (including the miniskirts) or dress is better that trousers.

In some Monasteries skirts are obligatory for females in they want to visit them and if they are in trousers they are lent the skirts from the Monastery. There are some skirts for that reason. On the other had women in even very short skirts are not.

It's pretty much the same at my parish in North America. We have boxes of long skirts for those who show up in pants. I think this is very nice, because this way anyone can pop in at the spur of the moment, and yet there are skirts available to wear if necessary. I don't agree though, that miniskirts are more modest than pants. I've pretty much adopted the habit of always wearing skirts or dresses on a daily basis, this simplifies matters a great deal. In the winter one can wear warm stockings and boots. One time I did walk in without a headscarf on my head and I was quite sternly rebuked by a woman in her thirties!

But I do think Bishop Ilarion has a point, that it's better to treat people with love and encouragement when they do actually show up at church, rather than turning them off it altogether by making them feel inferior due to their clothing.


Wow!  What parish do you belong to?  That kind of behavior sounds awfully strict and uncompromising for a Church to take.  I've seen such behavior from traditional RC's in regards to dress, but not so much from the Orthodox. You certainly wouldn't see that happening in any parish that I would choose to affiliate myself with.

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« Reply #146 on: January 20, 2010, 06:12:50 PM »

I am a man and I don't like trousers that much.  I wish that it would not cause a scene to wear Middle Eastern clothing here in the United States.  Far more comfortable.
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« Reply #147 on: January 20, 2010, 06:42:05 PM »

Quote
Wow!  What parish do you belong to?  That kind of behavior sounds awfully strict and uncompromising for a Church to take.  I've seen such behavior from traditional RC's in regards to dress, but not so much from the Orthodox. You certainly wouldn't see that happening in any parish that I would choose to affiliate myself with.

Perhaps it's on the strict side, but I feel quite comfortable with that. It's no hardship to be reminded to put something on my head when I enter the church and no hardship to commit myself to dressing modestly on a daily basis (by my own convictions).

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« Reply #148 on: January 21, 2010, 12:59:57 PM »

Like a lot of other things, it's much easier and quicker to just lay down the law, than it is to explain why we do what we do and believe what we believe. It's much easier to enforce a dress code than it is to take the time to explain why it's a good thing to dress modestly (at all times, as rosehip so wisely points out!) and respectfully when we come to church to worship God.

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« Reply #149 on: January 21, 2010, 02:07:15 PM »

Like a lot of other things, it's much easier and quicker to just lay down the law, than it is to explain why we do what we do and believe what we believe.
Since when does Orthodoxy opt for the easy or quick way of doing anything?  laugh
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« Reply #150 on: January 21, 2010, 02:44:13 PM »

I have the impression that most of you do not realise what the real problem is. It's not about modest vs. flamboyant (I hope I've used the proper word) clothing at all.

The problem is that in the Old World (I know about Eastern part of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia and Romania) trousers are considered not to be the adequate clothing for women to go to a Church. Not the shorts that undercover half of the buttocks, but the ancle-lenghted and modest trousers only. Babushkas  that do not wear trousers at all (and some Priest and other people also) tend to hiss ad the female parishioners that go to a Church in trousers and sometimes ask them to leave the Church. According tho them any skirt (including the miniskirts) or dress is better that trousers.

In some Monasteries skirts are obligatory for females in they want to visit them and if they are in trousers they are lent the skirts from the Monastery. There are some skirts for that reason. On the other had women in even very short skirts are not.

And, yet, they still can't figure out why people don't want to go to church...hmmm...
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« Reply #151 on: January 21, 2010, 06:23:27 PM »

I have the impression that most of you do not realise what the real problem is. It's not about modest vs. flamboyant (I hope I've used the proper word) clothing at all.

The problem is that in the Old World (I know about Eastern part of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia and Romania) trousers are considered not to be the adequate clothing for women to go to a Church. Not the shorts that undercover half of the buttocks, but the ancle-lenghted and modest trousers only. Babushkas  that do not wear trousers at all (and some Priest and other people also) tend to hiss ad the female parishioners that go to a Church in trousers and sometimes ask them to leave the Church. According tho them any skirt (including the miniskirts) or dress is better that trousers.

In some Monasteries skirts are obligatory for females in they want to visit them and if they are in trousers they are lent the skirts from the Monastery. There are some skirts for that reason. On the other had women in even very short skirts are not.

And, yet, they still can't figure out why people don't want to go to church...hmmm...

Orthodoxy does not have the Protestant "Mega-Church" mindset. Yeah, it would be great if more people wanted to embrace the True Christian Faith; but if the Church compromises its standards in order to accomadate the world, then it will cease to be the Church. And of course we know that it is impossible for the Church to cease being the Church, for Our Lord has promised us that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

If people are looking for a comfortable spirituality, Orthodoxy is not it. But if people are looking for liberation from the bondage of fleshly passions and self-indulgence, then Orthodoxy is the true Christian grace that will heal their souls. Look, it's not easy for me. I fall way short in every area of my spiritual life. But I don't want the Church to cater to my weaknesses; instead I need the teachings and practices of Orthodoxy to help me transcend my weaknesses.

Selam
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« Reply #152 on: February 01, 2010, 03:47:48 AM »

I wonder if St. Mary of Egypt would be Communed in one of our oh-so-holy-and-modestly-dressed monasteries?

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« Reply #153 on: February 03, 2010, 10:26:56 AM »

Ozgeorge- Where did that cloak she's wearing come from?
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« Reply #154 on: February 03, 2010, 10:30:46 AM »

Ozgeorge- Where did that cloak she's wearing come from?
I'd hardly say she's "wearing" it. Cheesy She's hardly dressed in a way that many posters on this thread would consider "modest enough to Commune".
At any rate, it was St. Zossima's
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« Reply #155 on: February 03, 2010, 10:47:36 AM »

Ozgeorge- Where did that cloak she's wearing come from?
I'd hardly say she's "wearing" it. Cheesy She's hardly dressed in a way that many posters on this thread would consider "modest enough to Commune".
At any rate, it was St. Zossima's

For the sake of modesty, she asked Saint Zosima for the cloak, so I think this example militates against the point you're trying to make. She tried to cover up as best as she could in the presence of someone else, and I'm sure would have preferred more coverage if it were available. IE, she would not have simply walked up to a monastery naked without trying to get some proper attire first. 

If you've been practicing extreme ascesis in the desert, alone with God, to the point that you look barely human, the elements have stripped you naked, and you have to beg a passing priest to borrow his cloak, I'm sure that some allowance can be made for you. It's a far cry from people casually strolling in with mini-skirts.
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« Reply #156 on: February 03, 2010, 10:48:52 AM »

It's a far cry from people casually strolling in with mini-skirts.
How do you know they are not Saints?
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« Reply #157 on: February 03, 2010, 10:53:08 AM »

It's a far cry from people casually strolling in with mini-skirts.
How do you know they are not Saints?

If it turns out that some Fool-for-Christ has decided to dress like a prostitute to test our humility, I'll gladly accept correction when the truth is revealed. In the meantime, I don't see any reason why a holy person would wear a mini-skirt into church.
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« Reply #158 on: February 03, 2010, 10:59:41 AM »

If it turns out that some Fool-for-Christ has decided to dress like a prostitute to test our humility, I'll gladly accept correction when the truth is revealed. In the meantime, I don't see any reason why a holy person would wear a mini-skirt into church.
Thats the whole point- you will never know if they are a Holy Fool or an Angel in disguise sent to test us, so we should always accept them. St. John the Merciful was Patriarch of Alexandria in the seventh century and was renowned for his almsgiving.  When someone who didn't seem to need alms applied for them at the Patriarch's residence, the attendants told St. John who replied: "Give unto him; he may be Our Lord in disguise." You will never know if the person you meet today is a Saint by the way they are dressed. Saints don't have uniforms.
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« Reply #159 on: February 03, 2010, 04:38:45 PM »

If it turns out that some Fool-for-Christ has decided to dress like a prostitute to test our humility, I'll gladly accept correction when the truth is revealed. In the meantime, I don't see any reason why a holy person would wear a mini-skirt into church.
Thats the whole point- you will never know if they are a Holy Fool or an Angel in disguise sent to test us, so we should always accept them.

It's really not the point. You brought up St. Mary of Egypt to somehow say, "hey, it doesn't matter how you're dressed" when in fact she, out of modesty, requested St. Zosima's cloak to cover up with. Her nakedness was alright insofar as no human being saw her- one might say that solitude served for her clothing. When meeting with a priest, she respected basic standards of decency. 

We're talking about what is proper attire for attending church. Obviously we should be compassionate and loving to everyone, irrespective of attire, but that's a separate issue.
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« Reply #160 on: February 03, 2010, 06:46:24 PM »

To throw a spanner in the works here:

If it is regarded as unseemly for a woman to turn up to an Orthodox church wearng trousers or a woman's tailored pantsuit (seamstresses and tailors would know what I mean), then what of a man who turns up wearing a suit, but sports a brightly-colored mohawk and multiple piercings? Or a preposterous moustache which has been so coiffed, curled and waxed into a ram's horn shape that it is clearly visible when standing behind him? (The former example has not occurred in my experience yet, but the latter has.) Food for thought.
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« Reply #161 on: February 03, 2010, 07:03:52 PM »

I don't wish to cause offence here, but I do tend to feel that the very human habit of going overboard has ocurred in certain sectors of the Orthodox Church. To me, the "dress code" is a point in case; it's just something that exposes our tendancy to Pharisaism and concern with externals. Yes, it's perfectly right to dress modestly for Church. But should clothing really become such a rigid concern that we allow it to become a distraction when someone has slipped up in that regard?

If someone walked into Church dressed in only a cloak to cover their nakedness - certainly an act of modesty - can't you just imagine the response? This "concern" to unify everyone - perhaps the next step up from the "dress code" would be Church uniforms? - goes way beyond modesty issues. It has extended into the realm of legalism. And I don't think that legalists would welcome a cloak-clad saint into the Church.

Just some thoughts.
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« Reply #162 on: February 03, 2010, 07:13:58 PM »

To throw a spanner in the works here:

If it is regarded as unseemly for a woman to turn up to an Orthodox church wearng trousers or a woman's tailored pantsuit (seamstresses and tailors would know what I mean), then what of a man who turns up wearing a suit, but sports a brightly-colored mohawk and multiple piercings? Or a preposterous moustache which has been so coiffed, curled and waxed into a ram's horn shape that it is clearly visible when standing behind him? (The former example has not occurred in my experience yet, but the latter has.) Food for thought.

But do you really think that this issue is so much about modesty as it is about control and maintaining a status quo? Some people have taken it into the their heads that they will uphold some passing fashion custom as the custom to uphold. In the process, they don't consider - probably through ignorance - that fashion is a moving feast for both men and women; and that at one time the attire for both men and women was almost the same; a tunic of different lengths and its accompliments. I wonder if somewhere in time there was an uproar when men stopped wearing tunics only and took to the very barbaric practice of wearing trousers?  Wink
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« Reply #163 on: February 03, 2010, 07:17:39 PM »

Riddi, I completely agree with you. I'm simply pointing out the pharisaism and double standard by those zealots in certain church communities who can't see the wood for the trees. Hence my earlier post on the potential distraction to some women on seeing a man wearing a well-tailored suit. It cuts both ways.
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« Reply #164 on: February 03, 2010, 07:23:00 PM »

Riddi, I completely agree with you. I'm simply pointing out the pharisaism and double standard by those zealots in certain church communities who can't see the wood for the trees. Hence my earlier post on the potential distraction to some women on seeing a man wearing a well-tailored suit. It cuts both ways.

Oh yes, I agree. Didn't mean to indicate otherwise.  Smiley I've already told my little ancedote about the time a young "Greek god" visited our Church. Very distracting! laugh
Lord, have mercy on all of us who are distracted.
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« Reply #165 on: February 03, 2010, 09:30:04 PM »

It's pretty much the same at my parish in North America. We have boxes of long skirts for those who show up in pants. I think this is very nice, because this way anyone can pop in at the spur of the moment, and yet there are skirts available to wear if necessary. I don't agree though, that miniskirts are more modest than pants. I've pretty much adopted the habit of always wearing skirts or dresses on a daily basis, this simplifies matters a great deal. In the winter one can wear warm stockings and boots. One time I did walk in without a headscarf on my head and I was quite sternly rebuked by a woman in her thirties!

Wow, I've never been to a parish that was so strict on women's dress.

In my parish trousers on women are accepted, and none of the women cover their heads.

But then again, we're a bunch of heathens with pews too.  Wink  Tongue
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« Reply #166 on: February 03, 2010, 09:59:41 PM »

It's pretty much the same at my parish in North America. We have boxes of long skirts for those who show up in pants. I think this is very nice, because this way anyone can pop in at the spur of the moment, and yet there are skirts available to wear if necessary. I don't agree though, that miniskirts are more modest than pants. I've pretty much adopted the habit of always wearing skirts or dresses on a daily basis, this simplifies matters a great deal. In the winter one can wear warm stockings and boots. One time I did walk in without a headscarf on my head and I was quite sternly rebuked by a woman in her thirties!

Wow, I've never been to a parish that was so strict on women's dress.

In my parish trousers on women are accepted, and none of the women cover their heads.

But then again, we're a bunch of heathens with pews too.  Wink  Tongue

 laugh Is outrage!
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« Reply #167 on: February 03, 2010, 10:10:37 PM »

Thats the whole point- you will never know if they are a Holy Fool or an Angel in disguise sent to test us, so we should always accept them.

There was a young lady in the shortest miniskirt I've ever seen at another Serbian parish in town.  She was certainly sent to test me, but I'm pretty sure she was sent by Satan!
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« Reply #168 on: February 03, 2010, 10:13:55 PM »

Thats the whole point- you will never know if they are a Holy Fool or an Angel in disguise sent to test us, so we should always accept them.

There was a young lady in the shortest miniskirt I've ever seen at another Serbian parish in town.  She was certainly sent to test me, but I'm pretty sure she was sent by Satan!

Give thanks that God created woman and gave her long sexy legs.  angel
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« Reply #169 on: February 03, 2010, 10:15:10 PM »

Give thanks that God created woman and gave her long sexy legs.

Hey, I'm all for admiring the beauty of God's creation, but I'm married! I only get to admire one pair of legs from here on out.
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« Reply #170 on: February 03, 2010, 10:18:14 PM »

Thats the whole point- you will never know if they are a Holy Fool or an Angel in disguise sent to test us, so we should always accept them.

There was a young lady in the shortest miniskirt I've ever seen at another Serbian parish in town.  She was certainly sent to test me, but I'm pretty sure she was sent by Satan!

I don't think we can even blame Satan for our temptations. It is our own desires which are the source of our temptations, and we must take responsibility for them and seek to correct them as Scripture says: "Each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." (James 1:14-15)
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« Reply #171 on: February 03, 2010, 10:21:13 PM »

It's pretty much the same at my parish in North America. We have boxes of long skirts for those who show up in pants. I think this is very nice, because this way anyone can pop in at the spur of the moment, and yet there are skirts available to wear if necessary. I don't agree though, that miniskirts are more modest than pants. I've pretty much adopted the habit of always wearing skirts or dresses on a daily basis, this simplifies matters a great deal. In the winter one can wear warm stockings and boots. One time I did walk in without a headscarf on my head and I was quite sternly rebuked by a woman in her thirties!

Wow, I've never been to a parish that was so strict on women's dress.

In my parish trousers on women are accepted, and none of the women cover their heads.

But then again, we're a bunch of heathens with pews too.  Wink  Tongue

 laugh Is outrage!

I know! And our priest cuts his hair!   Shocked  Tongue  laugh
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« Reply #172 on: February 03, 2010, 10:37:29 PM »

Give thanks that God created woman and gave her long sexy legs.

Hey, I'm all for admiring the beauty of God's creation, but I'm married! I only get to admire one pair of legs from here on out.

From The Ladder of Divine Ascent:

Someone told me of an extraordinarily high degree of purity. He said: 'A certain man, on seeing a beautiful woman, thereupon glorified the Creator; and from that one look, he was moved to the love of God and to a fountain of tears. And it was wonderful to see how what would have been a cause of destruction for one was for another the supernatural cause of a crown.' If such a person always feels and behaves in the same way on similar occasions, then he has risen immortal before the general resurrection.
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« Reply #173 on: February 03, 2010, 10:57:36 PM »

It's pretty much the same at my parish in North America. We have boxes of long skirts for those who show up in pants. I think this is very nice, because this way anyone can pop in at the spur of the moment, and yet there are skirts available to wear if necessary. I don't agree though, that miniskirts are more modest than pants. I've pretty much adopted the habit of always wearing skirts or dresses on a daily basis, this simplifies matters a great deal. In the winter one can wear warm stockings and boots. One time I did walk in without a headscarf on my head and I was quite sternly rebuked by a woman in her thirties!

Wow, I've never been to a parish that was so strict on women's dress.

In my parish trousers on women are accepted, and none of the women cover their heads.

But then again, we're a bunch of heathens with pews too.  Wink  Tongue

 laugh Is outrage!

I know! And our priest cuts his hair!   Shocked  Tongue  laugh

Yikes! It gets worse!!  laugh
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« Reply #174 on: February 04, 2010, 02:21:20 AM »

I don't think we can even blame Satan for our temptations.

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« Reply #175 on: February 04, 2010, 02:26:21 AM »

Thats the whole point- you will never know if they are a Holy Fool or an Angel in disguise sent to test us, so we should always accept them.

There was a young lady in the shortest miniskirt I've ever seen at another Serbian parish in town.  She was certainly sent to test me, but I'm pretty sure she was sent by Satan!
I have a question: If I am correct, Serbian Churches have no pews so what does a person dressed in that manner do when it's time for prostrations?
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« Reply #176 on: February 04, 2010, 02:32:34 AM »

Thats the whole point- you will never know if they are a Holy Fool or an Angel in disguise sent to test us, so we should always accept them.

There was a young lady in the shortest miniskirt I've ever seen at another Serbian parish in town.  She was certainly sent to test me, but I'm pretty sure she was sent by Satan!
I have a question: If I am correct, Serbian Churches have no pews so what does a person dressed in that manner do when it's time for prostrations?
If its a Sunday, she shouldn't be prostrating anyway. If it isn't, then the onus is on you to avert your gaze (see reply 178 above).
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« Reply #177 on: February 04, 2010, 04:07:13 AM »

I have a question: If I am correct, Serbian Churches have no pews so what does a person dressed in that manner do when it's time for prostrations?

This church does have unholy blasphemous pews, and nobody prostrates even during weekday services unless it is Great Lent, so low is the level of piety here in the New World.  How motherland Serbia would weep her holy tears for us!
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« Reply #178 on: February 05, 2010, 01:02:39 AM »

This church does have unholy blasphemous pews, and nobody prostrates even during weekday services unless it is Great Lent, so low is the level of piety here in the New World. 
Please do not take offense, but could I ask as to why pews would be considered unholy and blasphemous in the Orthodox Church. Thank you kindly. 
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« Reply #179 on: February 05, 2010, 01:38:47 AM »

Thats the whole point- you will never know if they are a Holy Fool or an Angel in disguise sent to test us, so we should always accept them.

There was a young lady in the shortest miniskirt I've ever seen at another Serbian parish in town.  She was certainly sent to test me, but I'm pretty sure she was sent by Satan!
I have a question: If I am correct, Serbian Churches have no pews so what does a person dressed in that manner do when it's time for prostrations?
If its a Sunday, she shouldn't be prostrating anyway. If it isn't, then the onus is on you to avert your gaze (see reply 178 above).

I've never seen a picture of a Serbian church in the USA which didn't have pews.  Maybe this is common in the "old country" but not here.  I have even seen a few ROCOR parishes that have pews! (to be fair, I think that these churches were originally OCA ones).
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« Reply #180 on: February 05, 2010, 01:47:17 AM »

This church does have unholy blasphemous pews, and nobody prostrates even during weekday services unless it is Great Lent, so low is the level of piety here in the New World. 
Please do not take offense, but could I ask as to why pews would be considered unholy and blasphemous in the Orthodox Church. Thank you kindly. 

If you really want to punish yourself go look through the Liturgy Section for the famous Pews thread. I will not provide a link because to be honest I don't want it resurrected. We have said the 40 day memorial so let it lay in peace.

If pew talk continues in this thread it will be locked. You have all been warned!

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« Reply #181 on: February 05, 2010, 02:10:41 PM »

Well, just let me chime in to say that I was entirely joking about the pews and being sarcastic.  Sarcasm just doesn't come across well in text all of the time.
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« Reply #182 on: February 05, 2010, 04:56:35 PM »

Thats the whole point- you will never know if they are a Holy Fool or an Angel in disguise sent to test us, so we should always accept them.

There was a young lady in the shortest miniskirt I've ever seen at another Serbian parish in town.  She was certainly sent to test me, but I'm pretty sure she was sent by Satan!
I have a question: If I am correct, Serbian Churches have no pews so what does a person dressed in that manner do when it's time for prostrations?
If its a Sunday, she shouldn't be prostrating anyway. If it isn't, then the onus is on you to avert your gaze (see reply 178 above).

I've never seen a picture of a Serbian church in the USA which didn't have pews.  Maybe this is common in the "old country" but not here.  I have even seen a few ROCOR parishes that have pews! (to be fair, I think that these churches were originally OCA ones).



The Serbian Orthodox Monastery Churches, don't have pews here in the U.S. St.Sava Libertyville Ill doesn't have , neither Gracanica Monastery In third lake ill...
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