OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 20, 2014, 07:12:50 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Crossing yourself at vespers and liturgy  (Read 3426 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
carpo-rusyn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 383



« on: December 14, 2009, 06:50:31 PM »

Just a rather basic question and might be kind of silly.

After liturgy this past Sunday someone came up to me and told me that I should be crossing myself at each petition of the litanies.  I don't normally do this, the priest (ACROD) who instructed me and chrismated me never taught me to do that.  I cross myself at the invocation of the Trinity and the mention of the Theotokos, as well as when the royal doors open.  I'm new to the parish (OCA) but no one else mentioned anything about this to me and I've been here the past 3 months.  To be honest I've seen a great variety of when and even how people cross themselves.   Anyone have any thoughts.

Thanks
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 06:55:29 PM »

I personally cross myself, but don't care about that. It's not the most important thing to bother. If you weren't told by your Priest to do it - don't do it. On the other hand if most of the people in your new Parish do that and you will feel unconformable with that - cross yourself too.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,352


metron ariston


« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2009, 07:06:53 PM »

Never heard that one, even from traditionalist sources.

Just keep doing what you're doing. Cross yourself when it complements your interior prayer.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,091


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2009, 07:09:53 PM »

Just keep doing what you're doing. Cross yourself when it complements your interior prayer.

Amen!
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2009, 07:17:43 PM »

The Jordanville prayerbook has a list of when to cross yourself, bow, etc.

It's been my observation that all of this varies greatly parish by parish and personal piety.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
carpo-rusyn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 383



« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2009, 08:12:55 PM »

Thanks everyone.  Just a rather odd thing to happen on a Sunday.  I knew I was under observation by the Almighty but didn't know someone else was watching. laugh
Logged
tuesdayschild
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 967



« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2009, 08:23:06 PM »

...told me that I should be crossing myself at each petition of the litanies.

"Exercise caution when relying upon unsourced claims."
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 08:24:30 PM by tuesdayschild » Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 11:43:59 PM »

Yuck. Phariseeism at it's finest. It's unfortunate that this person was monitoring your every movements instead of devoting that attention to God.
Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,070



« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 02:28:04 AM »

When to cross yourself is not prescribed by the church.  What you mentioned in your original post, is the common recommendation of a priest.  No one should be telling you when to cross yourself.  Making the sign of he cross is part of your (our) personal, silent prayer.  Cross yourself when you feel it, not when some know it all tells you to.  I happen to cross myself at the mention of the bishops name, as that is my personal reinforcement of my own prayer for him and his work.  There are two other petitions I cross myself at, which is my choice and not common. I have noticed in Russian practice, they tend to cross themselves at the "let us pray to the Lord," for each petition.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
LBK
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,139


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 02:39:41 AM »

In Slavic tradition, it is common for people to cross themselves at the mention of their patron saint if that saint is one of those commemorated in the Prayer of Intercession at Vespers and/or Matins.

Also according to the Slavs, one time you should not cross yourself is during the reading of the Six Psalms at the opening of Matins.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 02:39:59 AM by LBK » Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,070



« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 09:51:36 AM »

REPLY #9, LBK,

The Greek practice is to not move, including crossing themselves, during the Reading of the Six Psalms, too, though I've noticed that the faithfull are not necessarily cognizant of it.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 09:52:53 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:45:15 AM »

REPLY #9, LBK,

The Greek practice is to not move, including crossing themselves, during the Reading of the Six Psalms, too, though I've noticed that the faithfull are not necessarily cognizant of it.
Isn't "the Greek practice" whatever "the Greeks" practice? As you point out, there aren't actually any rubrics about this, just customs, and customs change with time and location.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 10:51:04 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2012, 03:10:33 PM »

Why do people cross themselves at all, i mean, what's the basis and meaning of it in todays church?
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,916



« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2012, 03:16:55 PM »

Why do people cross themselves at all, i mean, what's the basis and meaning of it in todays church?

The basis is that it's a universal part of Christian tradition.

The meaning of it is the same as it ever was. There are multiple layers of meaning. Calling to remembrance the power of the blood of Christ on the cross, our own call to take up our own cross, as a weapon against demons and invisible adversaries, etc.
Logged
FountainPen
Is not wasting any more of her ink
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,025



« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2012, 03:22:21 PM »

Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?
Logged

None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2012, 03:36:46 PM »

Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?

Jesus was the first to take up his cross...we are called to follow him, and doing this reminds us of that.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,916



« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2012, 03:40:17 PM »

Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?

Adam and Eve did it in the garden of Eden, and it has been around ever since. Genesis 1:1. Orthodoxy never changes anything.
Logged
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2012, 03:43:55 PM »

Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?

Tertullian referred to it c. 200 A.D according to wikipedia.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2012, 03:45:12 PM »

Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?

Adam and Eve did it in the garden of Eden, and it has been around ever since. Genesis 1:1. Orthodoxy never changes anything.

Did they do with three fingers joint or just two? Did they cross themselves at every petition in the Litanies during Vigil or just at the invocations of the Trinity?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,129



« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2012, 05:56:10 PM »

Just a rather basic question and might be kind of silly.

After liturgy this past Sunday someone came up to me and told me that I should be crossing myself at each petition of the litanies.  I don't normally do this, the priest (ACROD) who instructed me and chrismated me never taught me to do that.  I cross myself at the invocation of the Trinity and the mention of the Theotokos, as well as when the royal doors open.  I'm new to the parish (OCA) but no one else mentioned anything about this to me and I've been here the past 3 months.  To be honest I've seen a great variety of when and even how people cross themselves.   Anyone have any thoughts.

Thanks

Someone actually took the time to observe you throughout Vespers and/or Liturgy and then approached you to have you correct your practice?  I would have told this person to mind his own business and probably in harsh manner.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,567



« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2012, 07:03:02 PM »

Just a rather basic question and might be kind of silly.

After liturgy this past Sunday someone came up to me and told me that I should be crossing myself at each petition of the litanies.  I don't normally do this, the priest (ACROD) who instructed me and chrismated me never taught me to do that.  I cross myself at the invocation of the Trinity and the mention of the Theotokos, as well as when the royal doors open.  I'm new to the parish (OCA) but no one else mentioned anything about this to me and I've been here the past 3 months.  To be honest I've seen a great variety of when and even how people cross themselves.   Anyone have any thoughts.

Thanks

Someone actually took the time to observe you throughout Vespers and/or Liturgy and then approached you to have you correct your practice?  I would have told this person to mind his own business and probably in harsh manner.

Exactly. 
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Posts: 6,916



« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2012, 07:07:27 PM »

Did they do with three fingers joint or just two? Did they cross themselves at every petition in the Litanies during Vigil or just at the invocations of the Trinity?

They did it during the Trinitarian invocations, except for the reference made during the Phos Hilaron at Vespers.
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2012, 07:22:28 PM »

After liturgy this past Sunday someone came up to me and told me that I should be crossing myself at each petition of the litanies.

I am so sick of people like this ...
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2012, 07:24:18 PM »

Yuck. Phariseeism at it's finest. It's unfortunate that this person was monitoring your every movements instead of devoting that attention to God.

Not to mention that this person was wrong (as they usually are).
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,968


When in doubt, you lack the proper φρόνημα


« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2012, 07:38:18 PM »

Why do people cross themselves at all, i mean, what's the basis and meaning of it in todays church?

It means "cross".

And it helps.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2012, 05:56:36 AM »

I am rather surprised that someone actually approached you about this.  I would, if they do so again, remind them that during the liturgy our focus is supposed to be on our prayer, instead of those around us.  Also, while many people do practice this, it is far from a requirement.  I don't believe either of the priests at my parish cross themselves at every petition, and it seems that most of the people who cross themselves at each petition don't even cross themselves at each petition (evidently, the crops aren't really that important...)
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2012, 05:33:28 PM »

REPLY #9, LBK,

The Greek practice is to not move, including crossing themselves, during the Reading of the Six Psalms, too, though I've noticed that the faithfull are not necessarily cognizant of it.

It is because they have not been beaten into practice by yia-yias and babushki. Someone who knows better should take up a cane and volunteer or our churches will descend into U2-charistic anarchy in a single generation.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2012, 05:34:08 PM »

Why do people cross themselves at all, i mean, what's the basis and meaning of it in todays church?

The same meaning it always had from the time of the Apostles, dude.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2012, 05:36:27 PM »

Yuck. Phariseeism at it's finest. It's unfortunate that this person was monitoring your every movements instead of devoting that attention to God.

Not to mention that this person was wrong (as they usually are).

Wrong to assume the mantle of enforcer, perhaps, but not wrong on the practice, unless one wants to join the ranks of usurping enforcers oneself.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,458


« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2012, 05:42:38 PM »

FWIW, my Jordanville prayerbook says to cross yourself, but not to bow, during the Six Psalms when "alleluia" is said in the middle. My HTM prayerbook on the other hand says not to make the sign of the cross or bow.

I think it would be wrong to be upset with anyone who tries to correct you. For you all you know, he or she may be genuinely trying to help. It's not wrong to correct someone who you think is making an important mistake. If you saw a newcomer wandering up to the iconostas and trying to enter through the Royal Doors, would you just stand by and let him? Of course, just because that person corrects you doesn't mean she's right; always check with your priest. If she brings it up again, tell her what your priest said.
Logged
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,567



« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2012, 06:32:17 PM »

FWIW, my Jordanville prayerbook says to cross yourself, but not to bow, during the Six Psalms when "alleluia" is said in the middle. My HTM prayerbook on the other hand says not to make the sign of the cross or bow.

I think it would be wrong to be upset with anyone who tries to correct you. For you all you know, he or she may be genuinely trying to help. It's not wrong to correct someone who you think is making an important mistake. If you saw a newcomer wandering up to the iconostas and trying to enter through the Royal Doors, would you just stand by and let him? Of course, just because that person corrects you doesn't mean she's right; always check with your priest. If she brings it up again, tell her what your priest said.

Yes, but what does "A Son of the Church" have to say?  This is the only correct way to do it  Wink
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,177



WWW
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2012, 06:57:25 PM »

...and it seems that most of the people who cross themselves at each petition don't even cross themselves at each petition (evidently, the crops aren't really that important...)


My priest crosses himself at each petition, and I follow suit.

I always understood each petition to be a tiny prayer....and I cross myself.

...and yes, sometimes my mind wonders...and it's not that I don't "care" about the crops....but, I might miss one or two.   Wink

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2012, 08:36:51 PM »

Why do people cross themselves at all, i mean, what's the basis and meaning of it in todays church?

Why are you on this forum? 
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2012, 08:39:41 PM »

...and it seems that most of the people who cross themselves at each petition don't even cross themselves at each petition (evidently, the crops aren't really that important...)


My priest crosses himself at each petition, and I follow suit.

I always understood each petition to be a tiny prayer....and I cross myself.

...and yes, sometimes my mind wonders...and it's not that I don't "care" about the crops....but, I might miss one or two.   Wink



No, I mean literally there are at least two people I can think of (the only reason I even know this is because I usually stare at the icon of Christ during most of the service, and these two are frequently chanters, and consequently stand near the icon) who will cross themselves at almost every petition, but whenever the petition about the crops comes up, they do not cross themselves.  I just find it bizarre, is all.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2012, 08:50:17 PM »

I've read before that one is not supposed to cross themselves while they are bowing, or bowed; that is, one should cross themselves only in the upright position. Something like "it disrespects the cross to place it on your bent over body". Is there any merit to this rule of thumb?
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,177



WWW
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2012, 08:57:46 PM »


I was taught to cross, then bow....however, aren't we nitpicking it all too much?

If we do it so much "by the book"....aren't we in danger of losing the true meaning behind the gesture?



Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2012, 08:59:54 PM »


I was taught to cross, then bow....however, aren't we nitpicking it all too much?

If we do it so much "by the book"....aren't we in danger of losing the true meaning behind the gesture?





i just want to do it the right way... Smiley
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,177



WWW
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2012, 09:34:09 PM »


I think that as long as your doing it with an earnestness and love of God....and with definite intent, you are okay.

I always tell the kids that if they look like they are chasing flies away.....then it doesn't count.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
genesisone
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2012, 09:34:32 PM »


I was taught to cross, then bow....however, aren't we nitpicking it all too much?

If we do it so much "by the book"....aren't we in danger of losing the true meaning behind the gesture?




I was taught to bow then cross. Should nitpicking be mentioned in confession?  Undecided

Those of us who came into Orthodoxy later in life need to do it "by the book" in order to get a routine started. However, I'm guessing we agree that one should expect this routine to make its way from the head to the heart. Once in a while, I even get out the book used in my catechism just to be sure I'm still on track - not just with crossing myself but with other things. It's easy in a nearly all convert parish for no one to be really sure what should be done and when.
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,177



WWW
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2012, 09:56:09 PM »


LOL!

It's easy in cradle parish, too!

Just because folks are born "in to" the Faith, doesn't mean they understand it, do things properly, or appreciate what they have.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 09:56:30 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,458


« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2012, 10:55:20 PM »

Yes, when I'm in a Russian church the people cross then bow, but in the Greek church they bow then cross.

When in Rome…
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2012, 10:56:25 PM »


I was taught to cross, then bow....however, aren't we nitpicking it all too much?

If we do it so much "by the book"....aren't we in danger of losing the true meaning behind the gesture?




I was taught to bow then cross. Should nitpicking be mentioned in confession?  Undecided

Those of us who came into Orthodoxy later in life need to do it "by the book" in order to get a routine started. However, I'm guessing we agree that one should expect this routine to make its way from the head to the heart. Once in a while, I even get out the book used in my catechism just to be sure I'm still on track - not just with crossing myself but with other things. It's easy in a nearly all convert parish for no one to be really sure what should be done and when.

depends on which book you are doing it "by the book" by.  And yes, I meant that to sound confounded.  laugh  (ps, I didn't actually laugh for those who are looking at a protocol from 1876 from a monastery in northern Russia that says that priests should not laugh during lent, or ever).     Tongue
Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2012, 12:55:06 AM »

All the above discussion is quite disturbing.

Lord forbid someone should make a prostration at a time not appointed as "prostration time" or should make the sign of the cross thrice rather than a simple once at a particular moment of liturgical time.


I think that as long as your doing it with an earnestness and love of God....and with definite intent, you are okay.

I always tell the kids that if they look like they are chasing flies away.....then it doesn't count.

Thank you, as always, Liza. Forgive me, brothers, but this is the only sensible thing said so far.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2012, 01:53:39 AM »

Yep, we bow then cross. Same way we venerate icons (metania then cross).
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2012, 04:08:07 PM »

Yep, we bow then cross. Same way we venerate icons (metania then cross).

Right, the mediterranean practice is to bow then cross, the slavic to cross then sweep/bow.  Is ok one way or the other
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.133 seconds with 71 queries.