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Author Topic: Real Flesh and Blood  (Read 3635 times) Average Rating: 0
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Marc1152
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« on: December 11, 2009, 12:05:54 AM »

I understand that in the Rubrics there are instructions to Priests on what to do if the Eucharist turns into actual flesh and blood.

Has anyone heard of this ever happening?
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2009, 12:16:47 AM »

Only in a Roman Catholic context.
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2009, 12:19:52 AM »

I understand that in the Rubrics there are instructions to Priests on what to do if the Eucharist turns into actual flesh and blood.

Has anyone heard of this ever happening?

It supposedly occurred at Lanciano in the 700s. I understand if it happens you are to stop serving immediately, and in that case they didn't??

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2009, 12:40:46 AM »

I never heard of that before...
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2009, 12:44:21 AM »

My Priest actually told me about this once. You're supposed to stop the service immediately and call the bishop.
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2009, 12:46:07 AM »

I understand that in the Rubrics there are instructions to Priests on what to do if the Eucharist turns into actual flesh and blood.

Has anyone heard of this ever happening?

Yes, and in Orthodox contexts. Just to give two examples, one was revealed to a Muslim in the 7th cent. (?) who converted thereafter, and in the early 90's in a Church in Jordan.

Btw, it ALWAYS turns into actual flesh and blood.  What you mean is He takes on the appearance of flesh and blood.
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2009, 12:51:58 AM »

I understand that in the Rubrics there are instructions to Priests on what to do if the Eucharist turns into actual flesh and blood.

Has anyone heard of this ever happening?

It supposedly occurred at Lanciano in the 700s. I understand if it happens you are to stop serving immediately, and in that case they didn't??

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

This is amazing. Since it's pre-schism, does the Orthodox Church recognize this particular incident?

According to Wikipedia, they were celebrating the "Greek Rite" Divine Liturgy when this happened.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 01:11:15 AM by samkim » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2009, 01:08:56 AM »

I understand that in the Rubrics there are instructions to Priests on what to do if the Eucharist turns into actual flesh and blood.

Has anyone heard of this ever happening?

It supposedly occurred at Lanciano in the 700s. I understand if it happens you are to stop serving immediately, and in that case they didn't??

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

This is amazing. Since it's pre-schism, does the Orthodox Church recognize this?

According to Wikipedia, they were celebrating the "Greek Rite" Divine Liturgy when this happened.

We only write canons for things that have happen and not on theory.
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2009, 01:39:30 AM »

I understand that in the Rubrics there are instructions to Priests on what to do if the Eucharist turns into actual flesh and blood.

Has anyone heard of this ever happening?

It supposedly occurred at Lanciano in the 700s. I understand if it happens you are to stop serving immediately, and in that case they didn't??

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

This is amazing. Since it's pre-schism, does the Orthodox Church recognize this particular incident?

According to Wikipedia, they were celebrating the "Greek Rite" Divine Liturgy when this happened.

Yes.
And as ialmisry said, it has happened more recently in Orthodox Churches as well.
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2009, 01:40:52 AM »

Amazing...

But I suppose this shows how weak my faith is. Christ come to us at every Liturgy!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 01:41:39 AM by samkim » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2009, 03:51:09 AM »

There was an incident, several years ago, in a Greek Orthodox church in Phoenix, AZ, when blood began to drip from the Gospel Book on the altar furing one of the Holy Week services.  If I remember rightly, the service was stopped, the Metropolitan was called in to investigate, and proper arrangements were made for the Faithful to venerate the miracle.
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2009, 05:37:32 AM »

REPLY #10  Did this occur at Holy Trinity Cathedral?  When did it occur, do you know?  I know a retired priest from that area and I would like to ask him about it.  I don't recall that it was publicised.
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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2009, 12:43:32 PM »

I understand that in the Rubrics there are instructions to Priests on what to do if the Eucharist turns into actual flesh and blood.

Has anyone heard of this ever happening?

Yes, and in Orthodox contexts. Just to give two examples, one was revealed to a Muslim in the 7th cent. (?) who converted thereafter, and in the early 90's in a Church in Jordan.

Btw, it ALWAYS turns into actual flesh and blood.  What you mean is He takes on the appearance of flesh and blood.

yes, amendment accepted.
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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2009, 02:28:46 PM »

From the Russian Sluzhebnik (Priest's Service Book):

"If after the consecration of the bread & wine a miracle is revealed, ie, if the bread manifests the appearance of a child or the wine the appearance of blood, and if in a short time this appearance does not change, ie, if they do not appear again under the form of bread & wine, but if they remain thus without change, then let the priest not take communion because it is not the Body & Blood of Christ, but a miracle from God manifest only because of the lack of faith or some other reason." (emphasis mine)

The instruction goes on to say that if the Body assumes another appearance then the priest must make another Lamb as he did at Proskomedia. He then resumes the Liturgy with the prayer "With these blessed hosts..." which is the prayer said at the Anaphora while the choir sings, "Holy, holy, holy..." If the Blood changes appearance, then he must pour new wine into the chalice. The purpose of this is so the faithful may still receive the Body & Blood of Christ at the Liturgy.


Any verification?
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2009, 01:18:37 PM »

I seems that when this happens Roman Catholics consider it a good thing and Orthodox consider it demonic.
Is that right? And I wonder why the difference.
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2009, 04:08:11 PM »

I seems that when this happens Roman Catholics consider it a good thing and Orthodox consider it demonic.
Is that right? And I wonder why the difference.

How do you get that from anything that has been said here? Even the Russian instructions say that it's at least a miracle for the weak in faith.
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2009, 04:14:59 PM »

I seems that when this happens Roman Catholics consider it a good thing and Orthodox consider it demonic.
Is that right? And I wonder why the difference.

How do you get that from anything that has been said here? Even the Russian instructions say that it's at least a miracle for the weak in faith.

Fwiw, I've gotten a similar impression as Marc1152 when this subject has come up before. I've noticed that Roman Catholics have tended towards accepting such miracles like they would any other reports of miracles, while I've seen Orthodox being more wary of such miracles and questioning whether such miracles are really from God.
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2009, 04:20:41 PM »

I seems that when this happens Roman Catholics consider it a good thing and Orthodox consider it demonic.
Is that right? And I wonder why the difference.

How do you get that from anything that has been said here? Even the Russian instructions say that it's at least a miracle for the weak in faith.

Fwiw, I've gotten a similar impression as Marc1152 when this subject has come up before. I've noticed that Roman Catholics have tended towards accepting such miracles like they would any other reports of miracles, while I've seen Orthodox being more wary of such miracles and questioning whether such miracles are really from God.

Sure, Orthodox do seem more cautious when approaching these things, but I think it would be jumping the gun to say that we automatically assume that satan himself is behind supposed miracles...

We should be cautious the other way around too, lest we blaspheme God in his works...
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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2009, 12:46:28 PM »

I understand that in the Rubrics there are instructions to Priests on what to do if the Eucharist turns into actual flesh and blood.

Has anyone heard of this ever happening?

It supposedly occurred at Lanciano in the 700s. I understand if it happens you are to stop serving immediately, and in that case they didn't??

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html


It was a Greek hieromonk but serving the Roman Rite Liturgy.
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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2009, 01:14:16 PM »

I seems that when this happens Roman Catholics consider it a good thing and Orthodox consider it demonic.
Is that right? And I wonder why the difference.

How do you get that from anything that has been said here? Even the Russian instructions say that it's at least a miracle for the weak in faith.

Fwiw, I've gotten a similar impression as Marc1152 when this subject has come up before. I've noticed that Roman Catholics have tended towards accepting such miracles like they would any other reports of miracles, while I've seen Orthodox being more wary of such miracles and questioning whether such miracles are really from God.


I too have heard, and in fact read an article once from an Old Calendar Orthodox site questioning the event in the 7th century and if I recall they flat out said it was a demonic event. I'm afraid I'll never remember what website it was but I know I've read that before someone. It might have been orthodoxinfo but I'm not positive. (I'm not bashing Old Calendrists BTW just making a statement) In fact I never knew the East had anything similar happen. Very interesting.
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2009, 07:02:11 PM »

I seems that when this happens Roman Catholics consider it a good thing and Orthodox consider it demonic.
Is that right? And I wonder why the difference.
No. The demons cannot even enter the place where the Liturgy is being prayed. How then could they work a counterfeit miracle?
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2009, 07:11:53 PM »

I seems that when this happens Roman Catholics consider it a good thing and Orthodox consider it demonic.
Is that right? And I wonder why the difference.
No. The demons cannot even enter the place where the Liturgy is being prayed. How then could they work a counterfeit miracle?
The demons work their hardest while we are praying the liturgy.
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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2009, 07:13:39 PM »

I seems that when this happens Roman Catholics consider it a good thing and Orthodox consider it demonic.
Is that right? And I wonder why the difference.
No. The demons cannot even enter the place where the Liturgy is being prayed. How then could they work a counterfeit miracle?
The demons work their hardest while we are praying the liturgy.
I have no doubt of that. I'm just not sure they have any power to make the Eucharist something it's not.
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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2009, 12:02:36 AM »

I seems that when this happens Roman Catholics consider it a good thing and Orthodox consider it demonic.
Is that right? And I wonder why the difference.

I can't recall ever hearing such an event called demonic within Orthodoxy. As already pointed out, the rubric itself 'officially' calls it a miracle.

If there is a difference, it's that Orthodox generally presume that such a manifestation is a sign of a problem among those to whom the sign is revealed. That is, such a miracle is not a reward or a gratuitous blessing, but rather an occasion for soul-searching and repentance (i.e., "In what way has my faith or life been so weak/defective that God determined that I needed such a graphic reminder.") This is actually supposed to be the traditional reaction to weeping icons as well--i.e., the purpose of the weeping is not be paraded around in triumph but rather to think about what in specific we might have been done to cause the Theotokos (or whoever else is the subject of the icon) to actually show us her tears.

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« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2009, 02:23:25 AM »

I have never heard of this phenomenon, nor know anything about it, but I thought I'd add to the discussion that the Greek term for the "change" prayed for in the Consecretion is called "metosiosis," meaning a change in essence, but not substance, as opposed to the Roman Catholic definition of "transubstantiation," not that we don't believe in the real change.
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« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2009, 02:54:02 AM »

There are, if I well recall, stories in the Limonarion and elsewhere, about priests or monks, doubting the supernatural transformation of the bread and wine, that were granted visions in which they saw a small child being actually sacrificed in the symbolical rites of the liturgy, that child, being understood to be Christ himself.
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« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2009, 02:18:22 PM »

need to repot this later
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« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2009, 04:25:32 PM »

I was meeting with my priest this morning and he actually talked about this.  He said that since Christ gave the Apostles bread and wine and told them "this is My body" and "this is My blood" that if the Eucharist is seen physically as something other than bread and wine it needs to be presumed at the time to be a warning or call to repentance (as others have already stated) until the bishop can investigate the matter.  He also said that if it hasn't truly happened before there would be reason for the church to have a system for how to handle the situation.
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« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2009, 05:09:27 PM »

I have never heard of this phenomenon, nor know anything about it, but I thought I'd add to the discussion that the Greek term for the "change" prayed for in the Consecretion is called "metosiosis," meaning a change in essence, but not substance, as opposed to the Roman Catholic definition of "transubstantiation," not that we don't believe in the real change.

In Roman Catholic theological terms, "substance" and "essence" are the same thing. 
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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2009, 05:53:49 PM »

In the case of the Lanciano miracle, science testifies that it is indeed heart tissue and blood, but how can it be proven that it was anything else before?  Undecided
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